The term that keeps coming to mind is accessory to murder. That's really what the anti-vaccination crowd is guilty of. Infanticide is a pretty horrible crime. Imagine if you murdered your own or your neighbor's child based on intentional ignorance and misinformation.
Whooping Cough Epidemic in California: Lax Vaccination May Be to Blame - ABC News (https://abcnews.go.com/Health/ColdandFlu/whooping-cough-epidemic-california-lax-vaccination-blame/story?id=11000305&page=1)
-Jeff
Valley Oak
06-24-2010, 11:19 AM
Is this the same 'religious' crowd that refuses all medical treatments because it goes against their religion?
Barry
06-24-2010, 11:32 AM
Is this the same 'religious' crowd that refuses all medical treatments because it goes against their religion?
I haven't read the article, but probably not.
The natural medicine crowd avoids vaccinations, and considers the cure being worse than the disease. We skipped all vaccinations except for tetanus.
Lots of childhood diseases are harmless when contracted as a child and provide excellent future immunity naturally. Vaccinations have known and unknown side effects and don't offer as complete immunity. Getting vaccinated as an infant, which totally overwhelms the nascent immune system, does not provide complete immunity. Should the disease be contracted as an adult, it is way more serious.
This led to odd spontaneous "playgroups" that formed around a sick child with German Measles, for instance, where the other parents would make sure their kids were exposed and contracted the disease!
As I remember, Whopping Cough was a more difficult decision then some of the other vaccinations we skipped, with the trade offs and risks being more balanced.
Braggi
06-24-2010, 11:59 AM
... The natural medicine crowd avoids vaccinations, and considers the cure being worse than the disease. We skipped all vaccinations except for tetnus.
Lots of childhood diseases are harmless when contracted as a child and provide excellent future immunity naturally. Vaccinations have known and unknown side effects and don't offer as complete immunity. ...
Barry, you've stated a whole lot of misinformation, but I'm done with arguing here on WACCO about it. Do the research yourself. If your child dies because you didn't vaccinate that comes with a punishment that will last your lifetime. If your poor judgement kills your neighbor's kid you're unlikely to feel it's your fault and you won't be prosecuted. If it happened to my kid I would certainly sue the people responsible if I possibly could.
The "natural medicine" crowd proposes we skip true immune boosting through vaccinations by substituting a lot of totally unnatural and most likely harmful vitamins and "supplements." The evidence that any form of vitamin supplementation causes harm continues to mount.
It's a belief system not a science system that discourages vaccination. This is expressed through the vehement resistance to all the studies that continually prove the safety and effectiveness of vaccines and the folly of failing to vaccinate, as in the article linked above.
There's no shaking a belief system (a delusional system) with mere facts.
Sadly, it's killing and maiming children.
-Jeff
Valley Oak
06-24-2010, 12:21 PM
This is a fascinating debate!
My wife and I have a friend (a Wacco subscriber that has posted on this board many times) who has never vaccinated her daughter. I would love to get her to read this thread and offer her side. She is a health expert, but not a licensed doctor.
We, on the other hand, have vaccinated our daughter for everything since she was a baby. Nonetheless, the fact that many vaccines have failed, or have actually infected, and in some cases even killed the recipients, offers at least some support to the "natural medicine" crowd.
The fact that this is not the "religious crowd" adds another element of intrigue to this dialectic. Although the religious argument against vaccines or any medical treatment, if I'm not mistaken, is legally protected by religious freedom. I'm wondering if there ever is legal prosecution, this might send the "natural medicine" crowd to jail while the religious anti-vaccine folks go free. After all, in this country, you can get away with almost anything as long as you cloak it in religion.
Barry
06-24-2010, 12:34 PM
Whooping cough cases soar in Sonoma County
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20100623/ARTICLES/100629785/1350?p=all&tc=pgall
Health officials declare whooping cough epidemic in California
Published: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 at 7:50 p.m.
Last Modified: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 at 7:50 p.m.
Health officials declared a whooping cough epidemic in California on Wednesday at the same time Sonoma County officials are reporting 48 confirmed cases locally — up from four at the same time last year.
California had 910 recorded cases of whooping cough as of June 15, five of which resulted in deaths. All five deaths were Latino children under 3 months of age.
Infants are particularly at risk from whooping cough because even with a full vaccination schedule that begins at six weeks of age, full protection does not occur until a baby reaches six months, said Mary Maddux-Gonzalez, Sonoma County’s public health officer.
“They are more likely to get it, and they are more vulnerable to the complications,” she said Wednesday. “You really want to make sure that everyone who comes in contact with that child has been appropriately immunized.”
“It’s often transmitted from parents,” she said. “We are really encouraging parents to get immunized.”
Lack of information and inoculations in agricultural regions in the state’s Central Valley — home to many Latino farm workers — might be the reason for the high current incidence in that community, said Dr. Gilberto Chavez, the deputy director of the California Department of Public Health’s Center for Infectious Disease.
Locally, health officials said they have reached out to primary care physicians, day care providers and prenatal support personnel, using a communication system last employed to disseminate information about swine flu (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/section/TOPIC0302//).
California is on pace to break a 50-year-old record for annual infections of whooping cough, also known as pertussis.
The 910 confirmed cases statewide is up from 219 cases at this time last year. At least 600 additional cases are under investigation by local health departments.
Health officials said the number of confirmed cases may only be a fraction of the number of people who actually have the disease because it has symptoms of a harsh, lingering cold.
Other symptoms include a runny nose and fever but not always the so-called “whooping noise.” Anyone suffering a persistent cough should seek medical advice, officials said.
“We haven’t actually had any reportable laboratory cases,” said Dr. Karen Tait, Lake County’s health officer. “Anecdotally, I’m aware of enough people with persistent coughs that I suspect it’s out there.”
Unlike some other vaccines, the whooping immunization loses its efficacy over time, health officials said.
Anyone over the age of 11 and especially those who care for newborn children are urged to get a pertussis booster.
Those boosters are now readily available — sometimes in a joint shot with the tetanus booster — another medication recommended every 10 years.
“This is where it is really concerning,” Tait said. “Older adults’ immunity has long since worn off, but if they are caring for young infants, they can transmit it to very young infants.”
Despite the dramatic increase in cases, officials say the worst could be yet to come.
The whooping cough season typically hits its peak in July and August.
Periodic outbreaks of the disease are not uncommon. Surges in cases occur cyclically, according to health officials.
But the numbers likely are also exacerbated by the decision by a growing number of families, especially in the North Bay, to opt out of immunizations.
California’s “personal belief exemption” is considered one of the most lax in the nation and in Sonoma County the number of family’s opting out is steadily growing.
The percentage of fully immunized students entering kindergarten classes in Sonoma County has steadily dipped from 91.6 percent in 2002 to 87.7 percent in 2008, according to state records. The statewide average is down by 0.6 points over the same period.
In nine school districts, six of them in the west county, the percentage of fully immunized kindergartners is less than 80 percent, a Public Health Department analysis said. Two school districts are below 60 percent.
“There is such a thing as herd immunity — when an adequate number (are immunized), those that aren’t receive some protection thanks to those who are,” Maddux-Gonzalez said. “Some people feel that this is an individual decision, but it can have a very serious consequence for other members of the community.”
“Many people have not seen some of these diseases and how serious they can be,” she said.
"Mad" Miles
06-24-2010, 01:32 PM
...Nonetheless, the fact that many vaccines have failed, or have actually infected, and in some cases even killed the recipients, offers at least some support to the "natural medicine" crowd.....
Hearsay, not fact. Not evidence. "many ... actually ... some"? What are the stats?
This issue has been roundly debated on this board (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/gtsearch.php?cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=vaccination&cx=013775768383073056622%3Akld0wcrs7dg&siteurl=www.waccobb.net%2Fforums%2Findex.php%3F#1020)in the past. I did a search and the H1N1 vaccination poll and discussion from last fall is available. (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/general-community/60013-h1n1-flu-shot-would-you-get-one.html) The earliest thread I recall, on vaccinating children, is not.
From my news reading the most recent developments are:
The Autism link to vaccination has been thoroughly debunked (https://news.discovery.com/human/vaccine-autism-doctor-guilty-of-dishonesty-and-misleading-conduct.html). The English doctor who first made the claim has been discredited as a charlatan, a quack, and someone who made unsubstantiated and highly controversial claims about the supposed dangers of another proven treatment, before he discovered the anti-vaccine gravy train. I believe he's lost his British medical licence and has relocated to the U.S. and is making his money off of speaking and writing fees, and is no longer allowed to practice medicine.
I'm sure the, "he's a threat to the established medical industry, so they have discredited him with lies," conspiracy claim has already been made.
The newest news is what Braggi has provided today. Rates of infection have gone up due to non-vaccination in various populations.
In reading the comments from the ABC article, I saw anti-vaccination partisans making the same old unsubstantiated claims. But more vaguely than before when they could link to the "vaccinations cause autism" movement.
Someone mentioned the elimination of polio in America (U.S.), but no one mentioned the outbreak in northern Nigeria due to suspicion of the polio vaccine from anti-Western devout Muslims.
Others are trying to insinuate that illegal immigrants are the source of infection. How surpising (not!)
My brother and his ex-wife did not, for the most part, vaccinate their kids who grew up in the eighties and nineties in Sebastopol. They're all healthy, but that's anecdote, not science.
He's a believer in the natural immunity vs. exposure avoidance theory of disease. Exposing his kids to lots of dirt and animals, in a semi-rural environment, was his alternative to vaccination. But he was raised on allopathic medicine, including the full range of vaccinations available in the sixties and seventies.
The science shows that communicable diseases have been severely reduced, even eliminated, because of public health vaccination campaigns in the modern era.
Now, with sometimes justifiable suspicion of modern medicine and science, some of those diseases are coming back. These facts are irrefutable.
Parents who privilege the health of their own children, at the risk to the health of other children (and their own) in their community, are being selfish and irrational.
But those drives to first protect our own offspring, no matter the potential cost to others, are deep wired. They're unlikely to go away.
Only a crisis of epidemic (sic.) proportion is likely to reverse the anti-vaccination trend. Don't worry, it's happening!
That's assuming self-induced ecological collapse doesn't finish us off first...
I watched a Discovery channel speculative doc about, "Life After Oil," a few months ago. One of the points made was that massive contagious epidemics, with high death rates, would follow a breakdown of modern post-industrial society. Hard to coordinate vaccination of large populations, let alone responsive state of the art medical care, when distribution of goods is no longer possible on a wide scale.
Who else read the article about Kombucha yesterday with the warning about possible infections from the bacteria cultures in it? As big a guru of natural healing and nutrition as Andrew F. Weil, M.D., has weighed in (sic.) against it!
Truth is an illusive goal.
Braggi
06-24-2010, 01:53 PM
... the fact that many vaccines have failed, or have actually infected, and in some cases even killed the recipients, offers at least some support to the "natural medicine" crowd. ...
Except that vaccines don't infect. This bogus claim largely comes out after someone gets the flu vaccine and winds up with "flu like symptoms." Well, duh. The vaccine stimulates your immune system by fooling it into thinking it's actually fighting the illness you're vaccinating against. So some symptoms are not only likely, they're the reason you took the vaccine to begin with. Usually the symptoms are so mild you don't even notice them.
The notion a vaccine can "fail" requires a longer response than I have time to make in a complete way. Some need boosters (as in the pertussis vaccine and the tetanus). Sometimes the flu vaccine, which is prepared at least six months in advance, is for the "wrong" flu virus because the scientists can't always accurately predict the exact virus coming around next year. And sometimes the immunization just isn't strong enough to fight off a particular bug. But then, there are few sciences that claim to produce products that are 100% effective. Compared to most products, vaccines are VERY effective.
As far as killing people, let's compare the number of people, as a percent of the population, that used to be killed or maimed as a result of communicable illnesses vs. the same numbers now. It's clear that immunizations save lives and a lot of them.
This is truly one area of health care where the "natural" community doesn't have a leg to stand on.
-Jeff
Clancy
06-24-2010, 02:15 PM
Except that vaccines don't infect.
Except when 'mistakes' are made...
Feb. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Baxter International Inc. in Austria unintentionally contaminated samples with the bird flu virus that were used in laboratories in three neighboring countries, raising concern about the potential spread of the deadly disease.
The contamination was discovered when ferrets at a laboratory in the Czech Republic died after being inoculated with vaccine made from the samples early this month. The material came from Deerfield, Illinois-based Baxter, which reported the incident to the Austrian Ministry of Health, Sigrid Rosenberger, a ministry spokeswoman, said today in a telephone interview.
“This was infected with a bird flu virus,” Rosenberger said. “There were some people from the company who handled it.”
Baxter Sent Bird Flu Virus to European Labs by Error (Update2) - Bloomberg (https://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aTo3LbhcA75I)
Braggi
06-24-2010, 02:23 PM
Except when 'mistakes' are made...
Interesting that safeguards in the system prevented anyone from becoming infected. Good system.
And yes, mistakes happen. Nothing in life is risk free including life itself. In fact, human life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% mortality rate. The rest of us are just dying as slowly as we reasonably can.
-Jeff
Clancy
06-24-2010, 02:34 PM
Interesting that safeguards in the system prevented anyone from becoming infected. Good system.
And yes, mistakes happen. Nothing in life is risk free including life itself. In fact, human life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% mortality rate. The rest of us are just dying as slowly as we reasonably can.
-Jeff
Good system? I don't think you understand what happened, or how. I also don't think you appreciate the gravity of what happened. It's a fascinating story about how humanity dodged a highly infectious pandemic, sheerly by accident.
For those who are interested;
Vaccines as Biological Weapons? Live Avian Flu Virus Placed in Baxter Vaccine Materials Sent to 18 Countries (https://www.naturalnews.com/025760.html)
and more
LifeGen.de - Editorial: Baxter’s H5N1 as global flu pandemic threat (https://www.lifegen.de/newsip/shownews.php4?getnews=2009-02-26-5323&pc=s01)
and still more, this has details the above stories don't (for the really curious)
https://a12iggymom.vox.com/library/post/baxter-international-mixed-swineavian-flu-and-sent-it-worldwide-cause-of-current-scare.html
June 8, 2010 (https://www.anh-usa.org/vaccine-firestorm/)</u>
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<u3:p></u3:p>Last Friday’s shocking news—the revelation of hidden financial ties and influence-peddling behind the World Health Organization’s declaration of a worldwide H1N1 pandemic—is only one of our articles this week on the controversial issue of immunization. We’ll tell you about flu vaccine deaths, fetal death and injury from mercury, a high government official formerly in charge of vaccines who now works for a drug and vaccine maker, and yet another tragic miscarriage of justice in the case of a pioneer of autism research.
<u3:p></u3:p>Although the health issues involved are the most troubling, we show how the truth can be uncovered, as always, by heeding that old adage: “Follow the money.”
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<u3:p></u3:p>Meanwhile, in western Australia, more than sixty children had “adverse reactions”—fever, vomiting, and convulsions—to a three-strain flu vaccine within hours of being immunized, according to the Brisbane Courier-Mail (https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/was-free-influenza-vaccination-program-has-been-suspended-for-children-under-five/story-e6freooo-1225857140885?from=public_rss). The vaccine manufacturer has voluntarily withdrawn the vaccine and is trying to retrieve it wherever it has been distributed.
<u3:p></u3:p>In Taiwan, seventeen children have died after being given the H1N1 vaccine (https://www.taiwantoday.tw/ct.asp?xitem=91444&CtNode=416). The Minister of Health said six of the deaths can be attributed to other causes such as myocardial rupture, suffocation due to inhalation of vomit, or hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, though he did not say what had caused those conditions. Investigations continue into the remaining eleven cases. It was revealed that vaccine had not been tested on humans prior to being administered in Taiwan, but that vaccinations will continue in order “to avoid wasting the vaccine.” The deputy director of the Taiwan CDC noted that, “If parents insist, doctors will be asked to explain the possible health risks.”
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<u3:p></u3:p>CoMeD Inc., a non-profit group hoping to ban the use of mercury in all medications, filed declarations in US District court (https://mercury-freedrugs.org/docs/100318_CoMeDPressReleaseOnDCCourtFilings_b.pdf) about pregnant women and their unborn fetuses who have been harmed by influenza shots that contain Thimerosal (mercury). The declarations filed detailed fetal deaths, miscarriages, stillbirths, premature births, and mental retardation or gross mental impairment of live births following the administration of swine flu and regular flu shots that contained mercury.
<u3:p></u3:p>As Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, one of the country’s most knowledgeable and outspoken physicians regarding the impact of vaccines on health, writes: “The doctors who are forcing these vaccines on pregnant women do not understand what they are giving or doing. We have heard story after story of people challenging their physicians over whether Thimerosal is present in vaccines. When the doctor finally takes the time to read the package insert, they are shocked to see that it is. While most of the mercury has been taken out of most of the childhood vaccines, it has not been taken out of the multi-dose flu vaccines. Each swine flu shot has 25 mcg of mercury.”
<u3:p></u3:p>In light of this, it is all the more interesting that a respected Japanese study recently concluded that vitamin D was as effective as vaccine in preventing flu, including pandemic flu (https://www.foodconsumer.org/newsite/2/other_diseases/vitamin_d_as_effective_as_vaccine_in_preventing_flu_1403100231.html). And of course it is also effective as a treatment. The complete silence of the US government about the use of this simple, cheap, unpatented substance against flu is truly shameful. If vitamin D were a patented drug sold by a drug company, is there any doubt the government would be promoting and stockpiling it?
<u3:p></u3:p>This is one example of crony capitalism in medicine but not unfortunately the most blatant. For that, see<o:p></o:p>
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<u3:p></u3:p>Dr. Julie Gerberding was director of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for the past seven years. Essentially, she was in charge of federal government decision-making about vaccines and disease-response programs. In January, she resigned to become president of Merck Pharmaceuticals’ vaccine division.
<u3:p></u3:p>Merck, as Pulse readers know, makes the Gardasil vaccine, which is marketed as a cervical cancer vaccine even though it’s really a vaccine for genital warts—the human papillomavirus (HPV). There are as many as forty different HPVs, only four of which can cause some types of cancer in some women. Gardasil’s own small-print disclaimers say the vaccine doesn’t protect everyone; it doesn’t protect against diseases caused by other HPV types; it doesn’t prevent all types of cervical cancer; and it doesn’t treat cancer or genital warts once you have them. Yet Merck is marketing it as the great new cervical cancer preventive. You can’t take it if you’re prone to yeast infections or are pregnant, and the acknowledged side effects include pain, swelling, itching, bruising, and redness at the injection site, headache, fever, nausea, dizziness, vomiting, and fainting with seizures or rigidity! Unacknowledged possible side effects have included a teenage girl’s death. A true miracle drug.
<u3:p></u3:p>Merck’s announcement said, “Dr. Gerberding is the ideal choice to lead Merck’s engagement with organizations around the world that share our commitment to the use of vaccines to prevent disease.” This is crony capitalism at its most blatant.
<u3:p></u3:p>By the way, in 2008, Dr. Gerberding went on CNN’s House Call with Dr. Sanjay Gupta and admitted that vaccines can trigger autism. It was buried in a pile of obfuscation (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/cnn-cdc-and-some-truth_b_94040.html), but the admission was there nonetheless. This in turn makes the next story all the more interesting.<o:p></o:p>
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<u3:p></u3:p> <u3:p></u3:p> <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="border-collapse: collapse;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top"> “A Clear Miscarriage of Justice”
<u3:p></u3:p>In March, a federal administrative law judge ruled that the evidence supporting an alleged causal link between autism and a mercury-containing preservative in vaccines was “unpersuasive,” and that the families of children diagnosed with autism were not entitled to compensation. The Coalition for Vaccine Safety called it “a clear miscarriage of justice.”
<u3:p></u3:p>These families, representative of than 5,300 cases of parents who believe vaccines caused their child’s autism, sought compensation but above all an acknowledgment of wrong from the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, a no-fault system set up to shield pharmaceutical firms making vaccines from financial liability and thus to encourage them to make more vaccines.
<u3:p></u3:p>Now, in another miscarriage of justice, Andrew Wakefield, MD—the British doctor whose research and public statements initially linked a common childhood vaccine to autism—had his license to practice medicine revoked (https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/25/health/policy/25autism.html) two weeks ago. The British General Medical Council alleged in part that he had conducted invasive medical procedures on children that they did not need. Significantly, no parent or child has ever alleged that they were harmed by Dr Wakefield.
<u3:p></u3:p>Prior to this controversy, Wakefield was a gastroenterologist and respected researcher. In 1995, he was approached for help by a mother whose child developed a painful inflammatory bowel disorder following a routine MMR vaccine (for measles, mumps, and rubella). The child also became autistic. His research team found nearly 100 children with the same symptoms and the same chain of events, a syndrome now identified in five countries
<u3:p></u3:p>As part of his investigation, Dr. Wakefield found the safety studies on the MMR vaccine “totally unsatisfactory,” and put together a 250-page report on these safety studies.
<u3:p></u3:p>The manufacturer of the MMR vaccine, GlaxoSmithKline (GSK), saw its sales drop sharply after the report. One of the members of GSK’s board of directors owns the Sunday Times newspaper. That paper wrote a series of articles critical of Dr. Wakefield, which prompted the UK’s General Medical Council to investigate. This was the beginning of what ANH–Europe called, in its excellent analysis of the incident (https://www.anh-europe.org/print/2962), “the longest witch hunt in UK medical history.”
<u3:p></u3:p>As Dr. Sherri Tenpenny notes, “The autism rate, now at least 1 in 150, is more than the childhood rate of pediatric cancer, HIV, and diabetes combined. And yet we deny the connection to vaccines and even deny there is an autism epidemic, with many thousands of children losing their brains. It is more important to be sure we don’t have a few cases of mumps or the flu than it is to question the holy water coming through that needle, a solution that contains known carcinogens, animal DNA, and heavy metals.” Dr. Wakefield recently published a book on his experience, [I]Callous Disregard: Autism and Vaccines—The Truth Behind a Tragedy (https://www.amazon.com/Callous-Disregard-Autism-Vaccines-Tragedy/dp/1616081694).: https://www.amazon.com/Callous-Disregard-Autism-Vaccines-Tragedy/dp/1616081694
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Some other related links:
https://www.anh-usa.org/have-we-abandoned-our-children-to-toxins/
1) How many of the 910 confirmed cases statewide were in fully vaccinated people? Fully vaccinated kids DO get pertussis. One reason is that the acellular vaccine currently used contains only three to five antigens and pertussis is mutating into many different antigens. The pertussis vaccine is one of the least effective vaccines available.
2) How many of the cases in Sonoma County are in the west county, Waldorf-oriented unvaccinated communities? This article (and several of you here) seem very quick to be blaming it on this community - the parents who have done their research and made an informed decision to not vaccinate their kids while living a healthy lifestyle that builds and optimizes natural immunity. How many people are getting sick in these communities? Does anyone know?
Or is it the unhealthy adults that are eating junk, not taking care of themselves, and have weakened immunity that are picking up pertussis and spreading it around?
It's been my experience that the kids who have been breastfed long-term, given a healthy diet and healthy lifestyle have solid natural immunity that keeps them healthy. They are not contributing to disease. If anything, they are contributing to "herd immunity" which originated a long time ago from cows having NATURAL immunity, not vaccined-induced antibodies.
When my unvaccinated daughter was little, she was fully exposed to a vaccinated child with an unconfirmed case of pertussis - played with him all day and I found out later he was diagnosed with pertussis. She never got the disease. She was also exposed to chicken pox 5 times and never got the disease. She never had influenza until a mild case last year at age 15. I doubt very much she was ever a risk to society.
Jane
Sebastopol Kim
06-24-2010, 06:26 PM
This is a difficult conversation, but one that needs to happen. Those of us who serve kids in schools have a big stake in vaccination, too.
podfish
06-24-2010, 06:42 PM
for those who seem to trust anecdotal evidence better - here's a site that's not really rigorous, but maybe more convincing to those who distrust "experts" because of that:
What's The Harm? (https://www.whatstheharm.net/)
This really is another argument in the family of global warming and evolution. Reduce them to the simplest terms: is climate change impacted by human activity? do species arise by evolution from earlier forms? does vaccination improve the health of the general population? and I think in all of them you'll find that the "experts" overwhelmingly agree. Of course there are many counter-arguments and there's no similar agreement on mechanisms and details. Reasonably well educated people can easily understand some of the objections to these premises - but I don't think that makes the amateurs' opinions equally valid. You may find that one of the outlier's arguments appeal to you or that the anecdotes resonate strongly with you - or that your personal experience seems to support your resistance to accepting these ideas. There are even great historical examples of cases where the iconoclast was right after all. But that's not where the smart money is bet. It doesn't much matter whether evolution is disproved in the end - but the other two issues have direct impact on everyone's lives, and betting otherwise makes for a lot of losers.
someguy
06-24-2010, 08:29 PM
The term that keeps coming to mind is accessory to murder. That's really what the anti-vaccination crowd is guilty of. Infanticide is a pretty horrible crime. Imagine if you murdered your own or your neighbor's child based on intentional ignorance and misinformation.
Whooping Cough Epidemic in California: Lax Vaccination May Be to Blame - ABC News (https://abcnews.go.com/Health/ColdandFlu/whooping-cough-epidemic-california-lax-vaccination-blame/story?id=11000305&page=1)
-Jeff
So you actually believe in herd immunity? I'm sorry, but herd immunity applying to vaccines is one of the silliest concepts I've ever heard of. Either vaccines provide protection, or they do not. If vaccines do in fact give your body immunity against a particular illness, would you care to explain the mechanism by which another persons lack of immunization could render your vaccine ineffective?
Zeno Swijtink
06-24-2010, 10:57 PM
So you actually believe in herd immunity? I'm sorry, but herd immunity applying to vaccines is one of the silliest concepts I've ever heard of. Either vaccines provide protection, or they do not. If vaccines do in fact give your body immunity against a particular illness, would you care to explain the mechanism by which another persons lack of immunization could render your vaccine ineffective?
I think you misunderstand this concept of "herd immunity."
"Herd immunity" is the degree of non-exposure of a person that derives from others (in their "herd") being immune.
If you are the last one in your herd considering vaccination, egocentric self-interest tells you not to vaccinate, since your "herd immunity" is so large that it does not pay to take on the risk of the act and process of the vaccination itself.
This conflict between the public and the private interest in vaccination was understood from the very beginning.
Daniel Bernoulli pointed this out in his Essai d'une nouvelle analyse de la mortalité causée par la petite vérole et les avantages de l'inoculation pour la prévenir.; (Essay on a new analysis of the mortality caused by the smallpox and on the advantages of inoculation for its prevention.) Histoires et Mémoires de l'Académie Royale des Sciences de Paris, pp. 1 - 45 in the year 1766.
The local health officials quoted in the PD article were uninformed, and so was Braggi in his murder accusation. For this particular infectious disease, parents who do not have their children inoculated have on average little effect on other parents' babies dying from this disease since the bacteria causing this disease is mostly carried by the adult population.
As an aside, being breast-fed lowers the risk of catching pertussis or being affected by it if you get it (but not at the same level of vaccination). (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC263189/)
In fact in the USA there is no herd immunity for the inoculated against whooping cough, since almost all adults here are not immune to it: if they got vaccinated in early childhood that protection is not life-long and has worn off in their early teens, and few adults are re-vaccinated (e.g. Braggi was not).
Adults get whooping cough but are nor severely affected by it, nor does successful battling the disease confer lifetime immunity, but whooping cough is not prevalent enough here to maintain a natural immunity level among the adult population.
In Germany they now give booster shots to adolescence and adults to give infants below the age of 6 months more herd immunity.
Vaccine. 2008 Jul 4;26(29-30):3673-9. Epub 2008 May 19.
Cost-effectiveness of adult pertussis vaccination in Germany.
Lee GM, Riffelmann M, Wirsing von Konig CH. (<https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18538901>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18538901)
Department of Ambulatory Care and Prevention, Harvard Medical School and Harvard Pilgrim Health Care, Boston, MO 02215, United States.
Abstract
BACKGROUND: The incidence of pertussis in adults is high despite good childhood vaccination coverage. An adult formulation of an acellular pertussis vaccine is licensed and available for use in Germany. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the potential health benefits, risks, costs and cost-effectiveness of routine pertussis vaccination programs for German adults. METHODS: A Markov model was used to simulate health states and immunity levels associated with pertussis disease and vaccination. The following strategies were evaluated: (1) no adult pertussis vaccination, (2) one-time adult vaccination at 20-64 years, and (3) adult vaccination with decennial boosters. Our main outcome measures were costs (2006 Euros), cases prevented, incremental cost per case prevented and incremental cost per quality-adjusted life year (QALY) saved. We performed sensitivity analyses for key assumptions in the model including disease incidence, vaccine cost, vaccine efficacy, disease costs and frequency of adverse events. Future costs and benefits were discounted at 3%. RESULTS: At a disease incidence of 165 per 100,000, the one-time adult vaccination strategy would prevent 498,000 cases, and the decennial adult vaccination strategy would prevent 1 million cases. Approximately 31 million adults ( approximately 62% of the cohort) would be vaccinated with a one-time adult vaccination strategy for a total program cost of 366 million Euros, while a decennial vaccination strategy would cost 687 million Euros. The one-time adult vaccination strategy resulted in CE ratios of 5800 Euros per QALY saved, or 160 Euros per pertussis case prevented. The decennial booster strategy cost 7200 Euros per QALY saved, or 200 Euros per case prevented. The results were most sensitive to assumptions about disease incidence and vaccine cost. CONCLUSIONS: Routine vaccination of German adults aged 20-64 years with Tdap is cost-effective.
This could explain the periodic and random reoccurrence of whooping cough in the US, and the death of very young infants that would not have been able to derive an immunity through vaccination. This has nothing to do with an absence of "herd immunity," and does not make parents who do not vaccinate into murderers of other people's children (only of their own children).
Further readings:
Vaccine and infection confer immunity for 10 years.....the loss of natural "booster" shots from further exposure cause rebound - from NY Times, https://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/22/health/22cough.html
New strains becoming immune to vaccine (from New Scientist): Short Sharp Science: Why whooping cough's making a comeback (https://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2010/02/whooping-cough-evolves-to-esca.html)
Barry
06-24-2010, 11:59 PM
I think you misunderstand this concept of "herd immunity."
"Herd immunity" is the degree of non-exposure of a person that derives from others (in their "herd") being immune.
Mere "gratitude" is not enough! Thank you for shedding some light...
someguy
06-25-2010, 02:12 AM
I think you misunderstand this concept of "herd immunity."
"Herd immunity" is the degree of non-exposure of a person that derives from others (in their "herd") being immune.
Thank you for pointing out this distinction.
At any rate, it is outrageous for Braggi to call people murderers for making a personal choice about their children's health.
The concept of herd immunity originally came from natural immunity, which lasts a lifetime. No booster shots needed, no mercury, and its free. A healthy child with proper nutrition and lifestyle (not very many of those these days, unfortunately) will have a strong immune system and be able to safely acquire natural immunity.
Incidentally, here is a study that says that the flu shot only reduces the incidence of influenza by 35% in people over 65: ScienceDirect - Vaccine : A meta-analysis of effectiveness of influenza vaccine in persons aged 65 years and over living in the community (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TD4-462BM67-R&_user=10&_coverDate=03/15/2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1381003962&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=34ee1a04dba95b46543dd65f18cb3930)
Personally, I'd rather go the natural route. Its not worth it to inject yourself with mercury every year just so you can have 35% less flu. If I was over 65, I would be working on correcting any nutritional deficiencies and strengthening my immune system instead.
The tetanus vaccine is perhaps an exception, because tetanus is not a childhood illness (its actually a poisoning) and has a high fatality rate. Tetanus does occur sometimes in people who are fully vaccinated, but the likelihood of death if you get tetanus is inversely related to the number of vaccinations you have had in your lifetime: https://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/9665156 (you might have to sign up to see this one. its free) Of course, proper wound care is critical as well.
podfish
06-25-2010, 07:59 AM
hyperbolic, maybe, but not outrageous. And your logic countering that makes no sense. There's no magic in the phrases "personal choice" and "their children" - they may be hot buttons, 'cuz who wants to deprive people of their ability to make personal choices? and of course if it's about children...!! But those phrases are distractions, and show up way too often in discussions about broader policies. If someone's "personal choice" leads to the unnecessary deaths of others, even if it was made to protect "their children", then it sounds like murder to me. OK, maybe negligent homicide. What if the personal choice was to landmine the area around their children's backyard playground to keep potential kidnappers away?
In a society that accepts as many restrictions on personal freedom as ours does in the name of safety and public health, rejection of vaccination is a hostile act. Personally I don't particularly support what I find as an extreme push toward public safety - I don't really like speed limits on the highway, for example, and .08 is too low for an alcohol limit, and I don't see why you can't shoot varmints on your own property, and....
.....
At any rate, it is outrageous for Braggi to call people murderers for making a personal choice about their children's health.....
Braggi
06-25-2010, 08:02 AM
.... At any rate, it is outrageous for Braggi to call people murderers for making a personal choice about their children's health. ...
Good. I was hoping to spark some outrage. If we're nit picking here, I didn't call anyone a murderer, but if you make an informed choice (I know, bad information isn't really information, but that aside) and your child or your neighbor's child dies as a result, it's pre-meditated something. You pick the word.
You are right that it's a "personal" choice, but it's also a community choice. You are choosing to weaken the immunity of the community. If one here and there do it, no big deal. If 30% or more choose that route, you've broken the herd immunity. At that point it's not just a personal choice.
One more point: your child didn't get to make the choice. If he catches a preventable illness do to YOUR personal choice and dies ... well, once again, you choose the word.
.... The concept of herd immunity originally came from natural immunity, which lasts a lifetime. No booster shots needed, no mercury, and its free. A healthy child with proper nutrition and lifestyle (not very many of those these days, unfortunately) will have a strong immune system and be able to safely acquire natural immunity.
...
I'll give one example to demonstrate how short sighted this point of view is: tens of millions of native indians died after the early European invasions of the Americas. Had they been inoculated against childhood diseases, that wouldn't have happened. That only happens with individuals nowadays, but leave out widespread vaccination programs and you'll begin to see thousands and tens of thousands dying needlessly every year.
.... Personally, I'd rather go the natural route. Its not worth it to inject yourself with mercury every year just so you can have 35% less flu. If I was over 65, I would be working on correcting any nutritional deficiencies and strengthening my immune system instead. ...
I've never had a flu shot myself. However, if a virulent flu strain was threatening my community, I'd be first in line. I wasn't convinced H1N1 was a big threat, but I was still prepared to hop on getting the vaccine if it showed up locally.
For your information, in the 1918 flu, it was the people with the healthiest immune systems that died most regularly. It was actually the immune response that caused the lungs to fill with fluid and then they died. Infants and unhealthy drunks rarely died though they did become ill. It was healthy young adults that died.
BTW, get over the mercury thing. There is no evidence that anyone has ever been harmed by mercury in a vaccine. Don't give me a list of links from crackpot websites because I won't read them. I've done it before and they're all bogus. It's all crap by people selling their nonsense books. Get over it. Thimerosal is safe, effective and cheap. There is a reason they use it. BTW, it's not found in childhood vaccines, so don't tell me about putting mercury in kids. That's not happening even though it's been found safe.
.... The tetanus vaccine is perhaps an exception, because tetanus is not a childhood illness (its actually a poisoning) and has a high fatality rate. ...
I'll close with this: "One neonate, delivered in a hospital, developed generalized tetanus on the ninth day of life. The infant had an infected umbilical cord that had been treated with bentonite clay for cord care at home. TIG therapy was administered within 24 hours of the onset of tetanus, and the baby recovered after 19 days of hospitalization. The baby's U.S.-born mother had a philosophic objection to vaccination and had received no tetanus toxoid (22)." Tetanus Surveillance --- United States, 1998--2000 (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5203a1.htm)
Impressively, the child recovered. Had the mother gotten a tetanus shot there is some chance the child never would have gotten tetanus. Sounds like a hard way to begin life.
Get over your unreasonable fears and get vaccinated. It's a choice that makes sense.
-Jeff
Braggi
06-25-2010, 08:17 AM
Key information missing from this article:
1) How many of the 910 confirmed cases statewide were in fully vaccinated people? ...
2) How many of the cases in Sonoma County are in the west county, Waldorf-oriented unvaccinated communities? ...
... It's been my experience that the kids who have been breastfed long-term, given a healthy diet and healthy lifestyle have solid natural immunity that keeps them healthy. They are not contributing to disease. If anything, they are contributing to "herd immunity" which originated a long time ago from cows having NATURAL immunity, not vaccined-induced antibodies.
When my unvaccinated daughter was little ...
You're asking some good questions here. First, your daughter's experience doesn't matter much to the community. Fact is, she could have been a carrier of any number of illnesses and you never would have known. In any case, it's an anecdote, and we all know the plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
I'm a big time promoter of breast feeding and natural support of health. I'm also a big promoter of vaccination because I've read the studies and I know they are safe and they work. The arguments against vaccines are almost exclusively made by ignorant fools or by educated people selling their particular book or snake oil. I think these people are murderers. No holding back on that one. Mass murderers. Killing innocents to make a buck. They are really the reason I'm posting here.
As far as who these people are who are getting sick and dying, all the recent fatalities are hispanic infants, as far as I've seen in print. It's common in our hispanic immigrant communities to avoid breast feeding. It's also common for immigrants to come to this country having had incomplete vaccinations or none at all, so there you have it. I would like to know how many infections were reported from the anti-vax communities in Sonoma and Marin counties. I'm with you on that. It would be valuable information.
But the fact is that we live in an era of globalization and immigrants and travelers will be bringing illnesses to the US that have all but disappeared due to the success of immunization programs. The best response is to vaccinate our children. All the science says so. None of the science argues against it.
Vaccines are safe and effective. Do it.
-Jeff
Bella Luna
06-25-2010, 08:34 AM
Just to chime in here with some info. My daughter currently has whooping cough. She was immunized as a baby, but did not get the recommended booster between 11-13. She is 12. My 14 year old does not have whooping cough and has been exposed to her sister. Same situation-she was immunized as a baby, but did not receive the booster. There is no rhyme or reason why one would have and the other does not. In fact, one would think that my 14 year old would be more susceptible to it because she had brain surgery in January and it has been longer since she was immunized. No signs of any cough with her though.
My friend who is a teacher in a very wealthy neighborhood of Tiburon had 16 children out of school recently with whooping cough-they ALL had been immunized. This disease is spreading whether people have been immunized or not.
Braggi
06-25-2010, 08:46 AM
... In fact in the USA there is no herd immunity for the inoculated against whooping cough, since almost all adults here are not immune to it: if they got vaccinated in early childhood that protection is not life-long and has worn off in their early teens, and few adults are re-vaccinated (e.g. Braggi was not). ...
Curious how you know this about me, Zeno. The fact is, I've been vaccinated twice in the last ten years for tetanus. I'm not sure if pertussis was included in the shots I got, but several articles I've read suggest they are typically packaged together, so there is some chance I got pertussis as well. I don't know and neither do you.
-Jeff
PS. I like catching you once in a while. You're typically very hard to argue with. I appreciate your contributions here.
Clancy
06-25-2010, 09:12 AM
I have whooping cough and I got a whooping cough/tetinus vaccine one year ago. At first I thought it was allergies, but there's no mistaking this cough.
Just to chime in here with some info. My daughter currently has whooping cough. She was immunized as a baby, but did not get the recommended booster between 11-13. She is 12. My 14 year old does not have whooping cough and has been exposed to her sister. Same situation-she was immunized as a baby, but did not receive the booster. There is no rhyme or reason why one would have and the other does not. In fact, one would think that my 14 year old would be more susceptible to it because she had brain surgery in January and it has been longer since she was immunized. No signs of any cough with her though.
My friend who is a teacher in a very wealthy neighborhood of Tiburon had 16 children out of school recently with whooping cough-they ALL had been immunized. This disease is spreading whether people have been immunized or not.
Zeno Swijtink
06-25-2010, 09:14 AM
Fair enough.
Curious how you know this about me, Zeno. The fact is, I've been vaccinated twice in the last ten years for tetanus. I'm not sure if pertussis was included in the shots I got, but several articles I've read suggest they are typically packaged together, so there is some chance I got pertussis as well. I don't know and neither do you.
-Jeff
PS. I like catching you once in a while. You're typically very hard to argue with. I appreciate your contributions here.
Deb
06-25-2010, 02:54 PM
Here is another crazy thing to consider.
If you are an adult, with whooping cough, it may not have the whoop. at the beginning stages there is nothing discerning.
I have a cough. It started as allergies two weeks ago. I called Urgent Care to see if I could get a culture to confirm one way or another. They said they aren't doing cultures for every cough that walks in the door.
I say THIS is crazy.
What about the people who are walking around undiagnosed and UNTREATED?? Ya think THAT has anything to do with the "epidemic"?
Peace Voyager
06-25-2010, 06:42 PM
Jeff,
One person's "science" is another person's "snake oil". Unless you know who paid for the "science", and under what terms and conditions they did their work, you will never know just how valid it is.
The fact you are convinced that a known poison like mercury is safe to be ingested, convinces me you lack good judgement; and thus not a source to trust for unbiased analysis.
The negative energy around many of your comments, and your perceptions of folks who choose differently as "murderers", must be rather hard to live with.
May peace be with you.
someguy
06-25-2010, 07:45 PM
BTW, get over the mercury thing. There is no evidence that anyone has ever been harmed by mercury in a vaccine. Don't give me a list of links from crackpot websites because I won't read them. I've done it before and they're all bogus. It's all crap by people selling their nonsense books. Get over it. Thimerosal is safe, effective and cheap. There is a reason they use it. BTW, it's not found in childhood vaccines, so don't tell me about putting mercury in kids. That's not happening even though it's been found safe.
I'll close with this: "One neonate, delivered in a hospital, developed generalized tetanus on the ninth day of life. The infant had an infected umbilical cord that had been treated with bentonite clay for cord care at home. TIG therapy was administered within 24 hours of the onset of tetanus, and the baby recovered after 19 days of hospitalization. The baby's U.S.-born mother had a philosophic objection to vaccination and had received no tetanus toxoid (22)." Tetanus Surveillance --- United States, 1998--2000 (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5203a1.htm)
Impressively, the child recovered. Had the mother gotten a tetanus shot there is some chance the child never would have gotten tetanus. Sounds like a hard way to begin life.
Get over your unreasonable fears and get vaccinated. It's a choice that makes sense.
-Jeff
Jeff,
I'd like to direct you to my other thread on this subject, https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccoreader/69048-vaccines-neurodevelopment-autism-spectrum-disorders.html#post116993. In my post to Miles, I have listed a number of studies showing harm from thimerosal and other forms of organic mercury. Your claim that there is no evidence that anyone has ever been harmed by mercury in vaccines is incorrect.
Rest assured, these are not crackpot websites but rather studies published in scientific journals. I wouldn't waste your time.
Your other claim that there is no mercury in vaccines for children is also incorrect. The multi-dose version of Fluzone contains thimerosal. For some strange reason, it also appears to contain the H1N1 virus. According to their website, it is recommended for children aged 6 to 36 months, and also for 3-8 year-olds.
Fluzone®, Vaccination Recommendation for Influenza Immunization (https://www.fluzone.com/?fa=protect/fluzone/about/recommend)
Also, you must have missed my previous comment about the tetanus vaccine. I consider it to be an exception. There is absolutely no benefit to be had from contracting tetanus, because it is a poisoning and not a contagious disease. It appears that people who are fully vaccinated against tetanus can still contract it, but their likelihood of dying from it is greatly diminished. So I would definitely consider vaccinating my children against tetanus.
Peace Voyager
06-25-2010, 08:18 PM
For the record, I allowed my children to be vaccinated with the minimum standard ones; no chicken pox, and especially no HPV (the maker of Guardicil later had bad results with that one).
What I did differently was to wait until the kids were a bit older, and to only have one vaccine at time, except MMR. I chose a supposedly safer form of Polio, (can't remember if it was the live or dead form).
This was more effort, but worth it for me to be a bit more comfortable.
Also, for my son, I took him to a natural medicine guy - David Field in Santa Rosa after the shots. He gave him a homeopathic (SP?) remedy for the vaccine. My son was his youngest patient for accupuncture at that time as well. David's office may still be in Doctor's Park on Sonoma Ave.
I have no fear or problem with those who are not vaccinated.
On another note, I do have a problem with folks having sex without knowing for sure if their partner has had complete, recent STD testing FIRST.
That can be riskier than not having a vaccine.
Peace Voyager
06-25-2010, 09:35 PM
One more thing, an obscene amount of our tax money :spentmoney:
went to the H1N1 synthetic pandemic folly. :gettinashot:
I'd bet it was enough to give every single American complete health & dental care for at least a year.:medical:
Did not fall for it, or get it.
I now can attest to the healing power of mushrooms. Great results from New Chapter's My Community, or Fungi Perfetci brand Stamets 7 general immune support. These blends are known to defend you from viruses, harmful bacteria, and even cancer.
If you have the chance to hear Paul Staments, or read his work, please do so - he is a wizard on the wonders of mushrooms for human and planetary health.
New Chapter has another blend for mental clarity - really like that too.
Harnessing nature to work for us :dancingrose:seems so much more logical.:bellydancer:
The recent whooping cough thing has me a bit concerned about germ warfare. Just what is in the man-made clouds happening almost everyday here for the last 9 months? Could we be a target or a test?:stormcloud:
Don't be quick to dismiss - it's a sad fact that this country has used some of its citizens as test cases for nasty things without their consent.:sick1:
RussianRiverRattina
06-25-2010, 10:21 PM
The problem with people not choosing to vaccinate themselves or their children is that their increasing numbers have caused formerly-eradicated diseases like whooping cough to return. Children and adults can survive a bout of whooping cough, but the risk of mortality for infants is considerably higher. Five infants in California have already died this year (https://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20008713-10391704.html) from whooping cough -- an inexcusable tragedy considering that this disease is entirely preventable.
I find it highly ironic that the U.S. increasingly resembles a third world country, thanks to the combined efforts of such unlikely bedfellows as the anti-vaccination crowd and the conservative free-marketeers.
HolisticKids
06-26-2010, 12:54 AM
Jeff, do you have any idea how fanatical you sound with your “the anti-vaccine crowd are murderers” stance? In all these years I’ve been following this issue, I come to see the vaccine program as a sort of religious dogma. Anyone who tries to question the almighty vaccines – God’s greatest gift to humanity - is made out to be some type of “crackpot” and dangerous to society. What’s up with that? What’s this incessant fear of disease that causes people to become irrational and fanatical?
Rigorous, long-term, double-blind, placebo-based controlled trials that are the “gold standard” in other medical areas are generally missing from vaccine science. Sure you can find tons of studies that come to the conclusion that vaccines are safe and effective, but if you delve deeply into many of these studies you find problems. Many are methodologically flawed studies funded by vaccine manufacturers. A major flaw is that the so-called placebos used in vaccine trials are other vaccines. Or, as in the case of the HPV vaccine, they used a potentially reactive aluminum containing placebo as a control for most trial participants, rather than a non-reactive saline solution placebo. This can artificially increase the appearance of safety. How is that good science? Long-term studies are not done and no adequate studies have ever been done on the real-world risk; the cumulative effect of multiple doses of numerous vaccines given in the first 5 years of life – a critical period for brain and immune development.
I’ve been extensively looking into the safety of vaccines for the past 15 years. I was at a conference in DC last October where many credible scientists and medical doctors came together to openly discuss the lack of good vaccine science and what to do to about it. Vaccine safety advocates are calling for reliable scientific investigation into vaccine related neuroimmune dysfunction. It’s a hopeful sign that the CDC is setting up committees and looking into studying the health impact of the immunization schedule, potentially through a vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study. Bottom line is that the jury is still out on safety of vaccines. Let’s ask this question. What’s wrong with making sure we have the best science possible when it comes to injecting foreign and toxic substances into the bloodstreams of tiny developing babies and doing this multiple times throughout this crucial period of brain and immune development?
Please don’t be so quick to judge people who are openly trying to make disease prevention safer for everyone’s children. Babies do die and become immune and brain damaged from vaccines. That’s a fact that’s not denied even by the government and the vaccine manufacturers. It’s a risk we’re “supposed” to take. That’s why there’s a government billion dollar vaccine compensation fund that’s been paid out.
I’ve talked to several MD pediatricians who know there are safety issues with vaccines, they don’t vaccinate their own kids but are literally forced into towing the line on vaccines and injecting them into other people’s kids. Pediatricians are up against major repercussions if they speak out against vaccines.
It’s believed that some children are biologically at greater risk than others for suffering vaccine reactions. But there are currently no tests in place to know which children will suffer reactions. According to the vaccine zealots we’re supposed to take the risk and if our child is damaged, well we have to live with that. Our child is collateral damage in the war against disease. Sacrifice your child for the good of all. But is it really for the good of all? What if we’re meant to live with these diseases and it’s part of a child’s immune development to be exposed to them? What about all the increased chronic diseases and immune dysfunction that kids are dealing with now? This really needs to be looked at.
You talk about how non-vaccinators are responsible for harming other kids. What worries me are the vaccine zealots who are bullying parents into making a medical decision that goes against the outcome of their investigation and their gut instincts. What if you were successful in shaming a parent into vaccinating their baby anyway? And that baby died or had a serious reaction that permanently damaged them? Would you consider yourself responsible? What right do you have to tell someone how they should make a personal medical decision? To inject foreign material into their baby’s body?
We mothers have a powerful intuitive instinct when it comes to our children. I’ve talked with literally hundreds of mothers over the years who believe their children have been damaged by vaccines who said in retrospect they knew in their gut not to vaccinate their child but they allowed it because of the extreme pressure to vaccinate. Injecting substances into the human body that are known in some cases to cause injury or death should be a decision for each individual to make. Informed consent is another gold standard in every area of the medical system except for vaccination. With vaccines it’s “Just do it, it’s safe and effective.” Well what if it’s not?
I've been doing exploration into health and healing for half my life and there’s one thing I've observed to be true - that there is mystery to the human body that the current scientific processes and tools cannot grasp. There are many underlying factors going on when it comes to who gets a disease and who stays healthy. The medical system tries to simplify it by saying inject the vaccine and that equals immunity. Well it's not so black and white. It doesn't always equal immunity and in the case of the whooping cough vaccine (which was where this whole discussion started),
there are many, many times that it simply doesn't work.
Jane
The term that keeps coming to mind is accessory to murder. That's really what the anti-vaccination crowd is guilty of. Infanticide is a pretty horrible crime. Imagine if you murdered your own or your neighbor's child based on intentional ignorance and misinformation.
Whooping Cough Epidemic in California: Lax Vaccination May Be to Blame - ABC News (https://abcnews.go.com/Health/ColdandFlu/whooping-cough-epidemic-california-lax-vaccination-blame/story?id=11000305&page=1)
-Jeff
elienos
06-26-2010, 09:10 AM
I'll give one example to demonstrate how short sighted this point of view is: tens of millions of native indians died after the early European invasions of the Americas. Had they been inoculated against childhood diseases, that wouldn't have happened. That only happens with individuals nowadays, but leave out widespread vaccination programs and you'll begin to see thousands and tens of thousands dying needlessly every year.
................
BTW, get over the mercury thing. There is no evidence that anyone has ever been harmed by mercury in a vaccine. Don't give me a list of links from crackpot websites because I won't read them. I've done it before and they're all bogus. It's all crap by people selling their nonsense books. Get over it. Thimerosal is safe, effective and cheap. There is a reason they use it. BTW, it's not found in childhood vaccines, so don't tell me about putting mercury in kids. That's not happening even though it's been found safe.
The above arguments are interesting to me. The Europeans were not inoculated against childhood diseases. They had developed natural immunity. HERD immunity? I don't know, I was never vaccinated and I am the most healthy person I know. I never get sick. I think I had the flu when I was 10. I am 34 now. I even have a kid in preschool bringing home everything. For the record, my daughter has had some vaccinations, and we have passed on others. Nothing for the past 1.5 years.
And about mercury, yes, it is damaging. Maybe one shot doesn't do much, but it never leaves your body and builds up your entire life. That's why we are asked to limit our mercury containing fish diet. And I do think it is more damaging to babies than adults. To me it is just common sense. To say something that is proven toxic isn't harmful to shoot into your body just because you are only using a tiny amount is silly. They have now linked pesticides with ADD, the tiny amount doesn't do anything...but many toxins just camp out in your body FOREVER! There is a point your body just says NO MORE! Ususally when you are older and dying of cancer or something.
McDonalds is a much bigger health risk than people who aren't vaccinating.
In fact, people who vaccinate against Chicken Pox are creating health problems for older folks as well as unvaccinated children. Since the vaccine has started, shingles cases in young adults and unvaccinated children has increased. This is the destruction of herd immunity. If you aren't exposed to the disease for many years, your natural immunity subsides. The people who vaccinate just opt for a lifetime of booster shots to curb this problem. PR says that studies show the vaccine protects children from shingles, they hide the fact that shigles cases have exploded in the last decade since the invention of this vaccine.
21 shots in the first 2 years INSANE! It was only 8 when I was a kid.
HolisticKids
06-26-2010, 09:37 AM
This is a common theory that's been around for decades. But is it true? Where's the data that backs this up? I asked several pediatricians who continually make this claim to tell me what they have to back up this statement. None of them could give me a good answer. One pediatrician said "It's more hyperbole and fear than scientific backing".
The whole notion of herd immunity came from a researcher in the 1930s studying NATURAL immunity in cattle. It has nothing to do with vaccines. It's simply an extrapolated idea, which has no relevance or science in vaccines, and does not take into consideration the life cycle of the disease. Japan has a different vaccine schedule. They don't even use HIB or PCV7 vaccine and there are no major problems with these illnesses in Japan.
Whooping cough is not a formerly eradicated disease. They've not been able to eradicate whooping cough because the vaccine is not effective, the strains keep mutating. They've been trying to get this vaccine right for decades and it keeps failing. You are wrong in saying this disease is entirely preventable. And it's not been shown that the increasing numbers are caused by unvacinated children. It's more likely that it's being passed around by unhealthy adults.
The big question here is were these 5 infants breastfed? That's the best prevention against whooping cough that there is. Breastmilk is better prevention than the pertussis vaccine.
Jane
The problem with people not choosing to vaccinate themselves or their children is that their increasing numbers have caused formerly-eradicated diseases like whooping cough to return. Children and adults can survive a bout of whooping cough, but the risk of mortality for infants is considerably higher. Five infants in California have already died this year (https://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20008713-10391704.html) from whooping cough -- an inexcusable tragedy considering that this disease is entirely preventable.
I find it highly ironic that the U.S. increasingly resembles a third world country, thanks to the combined efforts of such unlikely bedfellows as the anti-vaccination crowd and the conservative free-marketeers.
Braggi
06-26-2010, 10:24 AM
The above arguments are interesting to me. The Europeans were not inoculated against childhood diseases. They had developed natural immunity. HERD immunity? I don't know ...
Your last statement there was the correct one. Europeans in that age were dying and becoming physically and mentally crippled at a horrendous rate do to illnesses that have all but disappeared from the landscape due to mass inoculations. The reason you don't have a mental image of that time is because you never lived in a time when every breeze carried the possibility of polio. It was a time of great fear and for good reason. We have it too easy nowadays so we can afford to demonize vaccinations. Yes, the Europeans had more natural immunity than the indians, but illness still took its toll among the Europeans in a way we can't even imagine.
... And about mercury, yes, it is damaging. Maybe one shot doesn't do much, but it never leaves your body and builds up your entire life. That's why we are asked to limit our mercury containing fish diet. And I do think it is more damaging to babies than adults. To me it is just common sense. To say something that is proven toxic isn't harmful to shoot into your body just because you are only using a tiny amount is silly. ...
And about chlorine, yes, it is damaging. Maybe one little puff wouldn't cause a lifetime of distress, but a few lungs full and you'll be dead. And one little speck of sodium on your tongue will only make a pop, but a piece the size of a pea will explode your head. These are extremely dangerous substances and I wouldn't recommend injections of either one. However, put them together and you get a nice condiment that goes well on some fried eggs, and is, in fact, necessary for life.
There is also a comparison between the mercury you find in fish, thanks to the coal industry, and the mercury you find in Thimerosal. The former is methylmercury [CH3Hg], and is the most toxic form. I suggest you read up on it. Mercury in the Environment (https://www.usgs.gov/themes/factsheet/146-00/).
The mercury compound used in Thimerosal (which is used in the injectable flu vaccine but not in typical childhood vaccines or in the nasal spray flu vaccine) breaks down in the body to ethyl mercury (C2H5Hg+) which is much less toxic and is more easily cleared by the body's natural and highly effective detoxifying systems. No friends, you don't need "chelation" to clear mercury from your childhood vaccines. It was gone a month after you got them and it most likely did you no harm in that time.
The amount of mercury in a children's flu vaccine is under one microgram.
If you really want to learn about Thimerosal here's a site with real information: Thimerosal in Vaccines Questions and Answers (https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/vaccines/QuestionsaboutVaccines/ucm070430.htm)
The whole question of mercury in vaccines is a case of ignorance not being bliss. A whole lot of people worry about it because they are comparing the wrong compounds as well as the wrong amounts. Anytime someone starts comparing mercury contamination in fish it's clear they don't know what Thimerosal is.
So let's compare the amount of mercury in tuna with the amount in a child's flu vaccine, but let's remember we're really comparing two different compounds and the form of mercury in tuna is more than twice as dangerous by weight.
Flu vaccine contains equal to or below one microgram of mercury in a form that is easily eliminated by the body. The vaccines that contain the most Thimerosal contain around 25 micrograms, but those aren't given to children.
One six ounce can of chunk light tuna contains (are you ready?): 52.7 micrograms per gram, or a whopping 8,959 micrograms in the six ounce can.
I rest my case.
-Jeff
NOW. Science & Health. Mercury in Fish | PBS (https://www.pbs.org/now/science/mercuryinfish.html)
Braggi
06-26-2010, 10:46 AM
... You are wrong in saying this disease is entirely preventable. And it's not been shown that the increasing numbers are caused by unvacinated children. It's more likely that it's being passed around by unhealthy adults.
The big question here is were these 5 infants breastfed? That's the best prevention against whooping cough that there is. Breastmilk is better prevention than the pertussis vaccine.
And I do take breastmilk whenever I can get it, though that's pretty rare these days.
I agree with what you're saying, but, the best preventative available to most of us is the vaccine, though I would appreciate more breast milk myself.
-Jeff
elienos
06-26-2010, 10:53 AM
Your last statement there was the correct one. Europeans in that age were dying and becoming physically and mentally crippled at a horrendous rate do to illnesses that have all but disappeared from the landscape due to mass inoculations. The reason you don't have a mental image of that time is because you never lived in a time when every breeze carried the possibility of polio. It was a time of great fear and for good reason. We have it too easy nowadays so we can afford to demonize vaccinations. Yes, the Europeans had more natural immunity than the indians, but illness still took its toll among the Europeans in a way we can't even imagine.
I agree, my point was that vaccines have not been the sole savior nor the sole reason for illness reduction. I think vaccinations have helped in some cases, I also think that some vaccinations have had adverse in others. Humans are not as smart as they think they are and I also I question that pharma companies always have our best interests in mind. Like I said, shingles, a disease with 3-5x the mortality rate, has been on the rise since the chickenpox vaccine has been introduced. And what is the solutions that is being proposed by "professionals" to this problem? A lifetime of vaccines for a disease that had a low mortality rate anyway. The medical industry has gone overboard with vaccinating. Now there is a backlash of people COMPLETELY dropping out.
I am not an expert on every type of vaccine, nor do I want to be, but there are more examples. When our society really decides to start taking care of all the lives it supposedly saves, then I will start to believe our institutions have our best interests in mind.
Mercury has not been the reason I have chosen not to use certain vaccinations. But I do think it is reasonable that people don't want to put toxic substances in their bodies or the bodies of their children. I think it is reasonable that parents don't want to stick 21 needles full of weird crap into their babies.
HolisticKids
06-26-2010, 10:55 AM
I think most of us baby boomers are starving for the mother's milk we never got, but that's a whole other discussion! :-)
And I do take breastmilk whenever I can get it, though that's pretty rare these days.
I agree with what you're saying, but, the best preventative available to most of us is the vaccine, though I would appreciate more breast milk myself.
-Jeff
HolisticKids
06-26-2010, 11:16 AM
I get pretty frustrated when I see the whole vaccine issue being reduced to the issue of mercury and autism. I don't think we should be injecting any form of mercury in any amount into a developing baby's body. And it's clear to me that the vaccine/autism issue has not been resolved. But that's not the only issue with vaccines!!!
When I and many others decided to refuse vaccines 15 or 20 years ago, mercury and autism didn't even play into the decision. No one was talking about autism and mercury at that time. But it's become a major distraction from many of the deeper issues of vaccines. And people simplify it and say the vaccine/autism issue has been debunked (not true!) and mercury is taken out of childhood vaccines so vaccines are safe, end of story. Well, sorry it's not.
Jane
The whole question of mercury in vaccines is a case of ignorance not being bliss. A whole lot of people worry about it because they are comparing the wrong compounds as well as the wrong amounts. Anytime someone starts comparing mercury contamination in fish it's clear they don't know what Thimerosal is.
Braggi
06-26-2010, 03:10 PM
I get pretty frustrated when I see the whole vaccine issue being reduced to the issue of mercury and autism. I don't think we should be injecting any form of mercury in any amount into a developing baby's body. And it's clear to me that the vaccine/autism issue has not been resolved. But that's not the only issue with vaccines!!! ...
Actually, it has been resolved, in fact, there never was a controversy. The original data was faked by a now deposed self-appointed kingpin of lies and nonsense so he could sell books and build his own ego based on the deaths of children. What a vile and disgusting human being. His "research" (Gods do I use that term loosely) was never verified because it was faked.
In fact, there has been NO rise in the rates of autism The whole issue is made up. I thought that's been posted and discussed in these forums already. Nearly every kid that at one time would have been diagnosed "mentally retarded" is now put on the "autism spectrum" chart. There has been no increase. We've just shifted kids from one category to another because the benefits are better there and the stigma less. Far better to be called "autistic" than MR or just plain stupid. Them's the facts. The research shows it.
I agree we shouldn't HAVE TO discuss it, but there are so many falsehoods proposed as fact going around the internet it's like trying to kill ants with a hammer putting out the lies and getting the facts out.
Where's my breast milk?
-Jeff
Barry
06-26-2010, 03:36 PM
Your last statement there was the correct one. Europeans in that age were dying and becoming physically and mentally crippled at a horrendous rate do to illnesses that have all but disappeared from the landscape due to mass inoculations. The reason you don't have a mental image of that time is because you never lived in a time when every breeze carried the possibility of polio. ...
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/ImagesforMembers/2010-06-26_1528.png https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/ImagesforMembers/2010-06-26_1532.pngThe use of vaccines occurred around the same time as a dramatic increase in the quality of sanitation systems. Check out Hygiene, Sanitation, Immunization, and Pestilential Diseases (https://www.jpands.org/hacienda/article36.html). I have included the charts of pertussis and polio death rates here.The vaccines appear to not have any effect. The diseases were already in rapid decline!
Chart :1 Pertussis death rate from 1900 to 1935.
The graph shows the pertussis death rate had decreased by more than 75 percent before the vaccine was introduced. This graph is adopted from Neil Z. Miller's monograph, Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective?[5])
Chart 2: Polio death rate from 1923 to 1953.
The graph shows the polio death rate was actually decreasing before vaccines were introduced. This graph is adopted from Neil Z. Miller's monograph, Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective?[5])
[5]. Miller NZ. Vaccines - Are They Really Safe and Effective? Santa Fe, NM, New Atlantean Press, 1992, pp.17-35. ThinkTwice Global Vaccine Institute: Avoid Vaccine Reactions (https://www.thinktwice.com). See also Mendelsohn R. How To Raise A Healthy ChildIn Spite of Your Doctor. Chicago, IL., Contemporary Books, 1984, pp. 216, 219, 228; Alderson M. International Mortality Statistics. Washington, DC, Facts on File, 1981, pp. 82-83, 164-165, 177-178 ; Cherry J. The new epidemiology of measles and rubella. Hospital Practice, July 1980, p.49; and Moskowitz R. Immunizations: the other side. Mothering, Spring 1984, p. 36.
Barry
06-26-2010, 03:38 PM
Jeff, please contact me. Your email is bouncing.
Barry
elienos
06-26-2010, 03:58 PM
Just wanted to add that, when Europeans were coming to this country it is amazing that they had any resistance at all to the diseases that were an accessory to indigenous murder considering the horrible nutrition that many Europeans had. Nutrition is one factor that has always often been the difference between illness and not.
"Mad" Miles
06-26-2010, 04:42 PM
When 'ol Cristobal et al started showing up to rape, torture, vivisect, enslave, murder and plunder, primarily for gold and souls for Jesus, the diseases they bore, and had developed some immunity to back home, Smallpox, Cholera, etc. wiped out native populations to the tune of sometimes fifty to eighty percent, or even more. (My vague memory, check Jared Diamond or Howard Zinn for the stats.)
This was unintentional genocide. The wholesale massacres with bladed weapons, firearms and artillery that followed, were, obviously, intentional.
The survivors, mostly young people, were in a state of shock with their entire society and culture nearly wiped out. This made conquest a much easier matter for the invading Europeans. Not saying this happened everywhere, but it happened lots of places in the Western hemisphere.
In return Europe got corn, tobacco, gold and in at least one case of ironic justice, Syphilis!
(Although my web search to find proof of this last claim only came up with partial substantiation.)
Sciguy
06-27-2010, 12:44 AM
The chemist community has never forgotten this isolated but fear inspiring case which I copy from an OSHA report on the web:
Case Report
The exposure occurred when, during a transfer to another container, one to several drops of <b>dimethylmercury</b> were spilled on the back of the researcher's gloved left hand. The transfer was conducted under a fume hood and the researcher was wearing disposable latex gloves. Five months later the researcher experienced progressive difficulty characterized by numbness and tingling in both lower extremities, along with difficulty in vision, walking, speaking, and hearing. When informed that her symptoms were due to mercury poisoning, the spill incident was recalled and she indicated that she had removed the gloves promptly and did not think any more about the incident. As a result, no medical monitoring or other follow-up was done until the diagnosis five months after the exposure.
Full diagnostic evaluation identified organometallic toxicity as a result of exposure to dimethylmercury as the cause. Hair analysis for mercury was consistent with a single or short exposure, such as the reported spill, and peaked at 54 days post exposure followed by subsequent slow decline in mercury levels. Mercury levels in hair are reflective of blood mercury levels at the time the hair was formed. Therefore, analysis of the levels versus time (hair length where sample was taken) can give a history of mercury exposure prior to when the problem was recognized. The mercury level in the urine was 234 µg/L; blood mercury level was 4,000 µg/L five months after the exposure (background levels in unexposed populations are 4-5 µg/L and 1-8 µg/L respectively). Despite aggressive chelation treatment, the patient went into a coma and died 10 months after exposure. Diagnosis at the time of death was encephalopathy as a result of mercury intoxication. The gloves used in this incident were disposable latex examination gloves and subsequent permeation testing of the gloves by a certified, independent testing laboratory indicated that the chemical permeates latex, PVC, and neoprene almost instantaneously.
In keeping with other reported cases, the delayed onset of symptoms is not completely understood, although the intense lipophilia of the compound may play a role. Estimates regarding the amount of exposure ranged from "one to several drops".
On the other hand, as a child, like so many others, I played with <b>liquid mercury</b> many times, rubbing it onto dimes (silver based in those days) and marveling at the way that it made them shine. The liquid mercury was on my hands and who knows where else it went.
Two vastly different exposures with two vastly different outcomes.
The point is this: mercury is not just "A POISON" end of discussion. It depends on the chemical form, the ingestion route, the amounts and much more. If reputable scientists do analytic work on a very tiny concentration of a suspect preservative toxin and find that it has no discernible effect, then it probably has no discernible effect in reality.
I agree with Jeff that if those scientists are suborned by industrial money or commercial profit, their results are in doubt. The world of vaccines is not dominated by gap toothed drooling scientists who will whore for cash. No one is perfectly objective but I do trust the result and vaccinated my children and still vaccinate myself as needed.
When people who refuse to accept vaccination are called murderers it seems clear what the motivation is and it has nothing to do with mercury paranoia. It is a statement that they are providing a reservoir for the pertussis bacillus which will lead to more widespread infection and inevitable death of other people's children. The shorthand for that idea is "murder". You should not read more into it than that. No one is equating it to shooting random children, but the outcome is unfortunately similar.
Sciguy
Jeff,
One person's "science" is another person's "snake oil". Unless you know who paid for the "science", and under what terms and conditions they did their work, you will never know just how valid it is.
The fact you are convinced that a known poison like mercury is safe to be ingested, convinces me you lack good judgement; and thus not a source to trust for unbiased analysis.
The negative energy around many of your comments, and your perceptions of folks who choose differently as "murderers", must be rather hard to live with.
May peace be with you.
Sylph
06-27-2010, 01:04 AM
Barry posted a graph which purports to show that rates of death from polio and pertussis were falling well before the vaccines were introduced. The measure that should be shown on the graph is incidence of disease. Then, you will see dramatic and undeniable proof of the effectiveness of vaccines. CDC National Vaccine Program Office: The Effectiveness of Immunizations (https://www.dhhs.gov/nvpo/concepts/intro6.htm)
The reason that deaths from polio decreased before the vaccine is that medical technology had improved, and iron lungs kept polio victims alive.
I just took care of an elderly woman with post-polio syndrome, who had fallen and injured herself due to the weakness on one side of her body. Polio caused massive incidences of paralysis and injury over the years that are still causing havoc in people's lives.
elienos
06-27-2010, 08:56 AM
When people who refuse to accept vaccination are called murderers it seems clear what the motivation is and it has nothing to do with mercury paranoia. It is a statement that they are providing a reservoir for the pertussis bacillus which will lead to more widespread infection and inevitable death of other people's children. The shorthand for that idea is "murder". You should not read more into it than that. No one is equating it to shooting random children, but the outcome is unfortunately similar.
Sciguy
Almost everyone on here is a murderer under this reasoning, since we all, in one form or another, support the war machine and destruction of entire cultures as we fail to refuse to take part in it's systems since that would be inconvenient to us. So yes, take the reference to "murderer" as a grain of salt. Also, everyone who has vaccinated against chicken pox is again a murderer since the rate of the more deadly shingles has risen as a direct result. You are all MURDERERS!
elienos
06-27-2010, 09:08 AM
Does anyone have the death rates of children by these diseases in Sebastopol, Forestville, Russian River? These have by far the highest non-vaccinated number of children, at least by school. I am wondering if they are higher.
And while we are talking about polio, here is a excerpt to a problem that we haven't really been talking about-mutations. This goes for other vaccinations like the flu, the creation of new viruses. this is a great report. <cite>www.thinktwice.com/Polio.pdf</cite>
In December 2000, researchers reported on a polio outbreak in Haiti and the Dominican Republic that resulted in numerous cases of flaccid paralysis [173]. Laboratory examinations confirmed health authorities’ worst suspicions: the disease was caused by “an unusual viral derivative” of the polio vaccine. The virus demon-strates genetic similarity to the parent vaccine strain, “but it has assumed the neurovirulence and transmissibility” of the wild polio virus [173]. Health officials are obviously concerned, “because a wild poliovirus has not circulated in the Western Hemisphere since 1991,” and if the newly mutated polio virus spreads, it could cause new epidemics of the disease (Figure 8) [173].
Figure 8. Polio eradication with vaccines: a vicious cycle?
The wild polio virus brought about the development of polio vaccines, which spawned mutations of the polio virus, resulting in new “vaccine-derived” wild polio viruses. Source: Virology 1993; 196:199-208; Lancet (October 28, 2000); Reuters Medical News (December 4, 2000)
Sylph
06-27-2010, 10:23 AM
Marin County, High Rates of Pertussis. Richest and poorest counties hit with pertussis:
'Personal belief' vaccine waivers drive whooping cough cases in Marin County | California Watch (https://californiawatch.org/watchblog/affluent-marin-county-and-challenged-fresno-lead-state-whooping-cough-cases)
Sylph
06-27-2010, 10:31 AM
The victims of the polio outbreak in the Dominican Republic and Haiti were unvaccinated or undervaccinated.
Public Health Dispatch: Outbreak of Poliomyelitis --- Dominican Republic and Haiti, 2000 (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4948a4.htm)
Unfortunately, oral polio vaccine can cause polio when the population is undervaccinated. This happened more recently in Nigeria. Nigerian officials thought the vaccine was a Western plot to sterilize the populace. The oral vaccine is much cheaper than the injected form, thus used in poor countries.
https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21149823/
photolite
06-27-2010, 11:47 AM
Most human diseases originated with birds and animals. Europeans spent centuries practicing animal husbandry with animals and poultry living and sleeping in their homes. This provided a unique opportunity to develop immunities over a very long period of time to those who survived initial outbreaks of animal borne diseases and many of these immunities were passed on genetically, even though the Europeans may have become carriers themselves. This is very different than "herd immunity". Upon arriving in the Americas (and other far flung places), European explorers infected vast numbers of Natives who had never had any exposure to these animals or the diseases now hosted by the Europeans. By some estimates, in North America, as much as 90% of indigenous peoples were wiped out within a very short time after initial contact.
[quote=elienos;117038]The above arguments are interesting to me. The Europeans were not inoculated against childhood diseases. They had developed natural immunity. HERD immunity?
McDonald's poses health risk only to those who may choose to patronize them. Disease carriers may pose great threat to any they come into casual contact with. Big difference.
McDonalds is a much bigger health risk than people who aren't vaccinating.
RussianRiverRattina
06-27-2010, 12:29 PM
"Murderer" does seem like too strong of a word ... unless you're the parents of the five babies who died this year after being exposed to someone with whooping cough.
elienos
06-27-2010, 12:55 PM
"Murderer" does seem like too strong of a word ... unless you're the parents of the five babies who died this year after being exposed to someone with whooping cough.
Adults need boosters in order not to get and carry the disease. Most adult cases are not even diagnosed. If you are thinking that unvaccinated kids are the reason for the outbreak you are really short sited.
Doctors now believe immunity from childhood vaccinations wears off over time, and that adolescents and adults (https://topics.sacbee.com/Adults/) have been unwittingly spreading the disease.
Read more: Medical debate: Should seniors get booster shot against whooping cough? - Medical News - sacbee.com (https://www.sacbee.com/2010/06/27/2852167/medical-debate-should-seniors.html#ixzz0s5IvLRAV)
Now just for the record, my child is vaccinated against this disease, I just feel like some of the pro vaccine fear-mongers are really getting out of hand, almost fascist. You can't even go to the Clinic in Petaluma and even question a vaccine without someone spouting offbeing treated like crap. No way to solve anything Truth is adults need a lifetime of boosters if we are to try to eradicate the whooping cough. I bet there are many times more adults carrying the disease than children.
RussianRiverRattina
06-27-2010, 10:30 PM
Sigh. Many of these adults have no health insurance & won't be getting booster shots any time soon.
Adults need boosters in order not to get and carry the disease. Most adult cases are not even diagnosed. If you are thinking that unvaccinated kids are the reason for the outbreak you are really short sited.
Doctors now believe immunity from childhood vaccinations wears off over time, and that adolescents and adults (https://topics.sacbee.com/Adults/) have been unwittingly spreading the disease.
Read more: Medical debate: Should seniors get booster shot against whooping cough? - Medical News - sacbee.com (https://www.sacbee.com/2010/06/27/2852167/medical-debate-should-seniors.html#ixzz0s5IvLRAV)
Now just for the record, my child is vaccinated against this disease, I just feel like some of the pro vaccine fear-mongers are really getting out of hand, almost fascist. You can't even go to the Clinic in Petaluma and even question a vaccine without someone spouting offbeing treated like crap. No way to solve anything Truth is adults need a lifetime of boosters if we are to try to eradicate the whooping cough. I bet there are many times more adults carrying the disease than children.
elienos
06-28-2010, 07:18 AM
Sigh. Many of these adults have no health insurance & won't be getting booster shots any time soon.
Except insurance companies don't like to pay. They rarely even pay cost to doctors. CA doctors hit cost of whooping cough vaccine - San Jose Mercury News (https://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_15378149) You think they are going to want to pay for a vaccine that isn't even regularly recommended?
But still, I don't think a lifetime of shots is the answer, but that is just me. It wouldn't work anyway. Do you know how many shots adults would have to get to be protected from all the diseases out there on a regular bases. They can't even get as many shots in the first two years that they want, it isn't going to happen. They can't control all adult for their entire life and no one wants to pay for it anyway.
You know, your baby is many many many times more likely to die in a car accident that from a disease passed by an unvaccinated person. Yet, if you baby dies in a car you will take no responsibility for making the choice of putting you child in that danger. Pharma companies are the ones that started this game of everytime there is a breakout with disease, blame the unvaccinated. I don't want to play that game and I will always argue against it. No to forced vaccinations.
Braggi
06-28-2010, 08:05 AM
Almost everyone on here is a murderer under this reasoning, since we all, in one form or another, support the war machine and destruction of entire cultures as we fail to refuse to take part in it's systems since that would be inconvenient to us. So yes, take the reference to "murderer" as a grain of salt. Also, everyone who has vaccinated against chicken pox is again a murderer since the rate of the more deadly shingles has risen as a direct result. You are all MURDERERS!
War, yeah, anyone who pays taxes these days supports war. I'll go that far.
The chicken pox vaccine prevents deaths and neurologic damage. I can't find anything about shingles deaths in the news or in medical statistics. Shingles never causes death on its own and only rarely creates a pathway to secondary infection that causes death. Methinks you're reading something from those anti-vax sites again.
Please provide some links to factual sources if you have them.
-Jeff
elienos
06-28-2010, 08:39 AM
Nothing that isn't supported by big pharma will be right at your fingertips. They want everyone to get the shot so everyone will then have to get more shots. Here are a couple links to articles by Dr. Goldman (https://www.drgoldmanonline.com/) on the subject from the International Journal of Toxicology. The second one is a little easier to read:
But you are right, shingles rarely causes death, just like the flu rarely causes death. It is complications connected to having the disease the causes the death. Shingles is more uncomfortable that chicken pox is to children.
War, yeah, anyone who pays taxes these days supports war. I'll go that far.
The chicken pox vaccine prevents deaths and neurologic damage. I can't find anything about shingles deaths in the news or in medical statistics. Shingles never causes death on its own and only rarely creates a pathway to secondary infection that causes death. Methinks you're reading something from those anti-vax sites again.
Please provide some links to factual sources if you have them.
-Jeff
HolisticKids
06-28-2010, 08:52 AM
The pertussis booster is supposedly worthless unless you've had the 3-shot series within a certain timeframe. Which is probably why they're not really promoting boosters for adults. The best way for adults to prevent disease is to eat a healthy whole foods diet, get your vitamin D levels above 50 ng/mL, be happy and laugh a lot. Angry, fear mongering makes you more susceptible to disease.
Jane
Sigh. Many of these adults have no health insurance & won't be getting booster shots any time soon.
elienos
06-28-2010, 08:54 AM
According to a study by Angel Gil, et al., of the Department of Health (https://www.ehow.com/about_5315857_can-die-disease-shingles.html#) Sciences at Rey Juan Carlos University, the case-fatality rate of shingles is 4.6 per cent. This increases as does the age of the infected person, reaching 7.2 per cent by the 80 and over age bracket.
Read more: Can You Die From the Disease Shingles? | eHow.com (https://www.ehow.com/about_5315857_can-die-disease-shingles.html#ixzz0sAD8rIQH) Can You Die From the Disease Shingles? | eHow.com (https://www.ehow.com/about_5315857_can-die-disease-shingles.html#ixzz0sAD8rIQH)
Sylph
06-28-2010, 12:28 PM
I appreciate that our public health system may be failing in not recommending booster shots for certain diseases, such as whooping cough. Sadly, it's the infected adults caring for the baby that are the most likely to pass it on. Are day care workers or pediatric nurses required to keep up on their pertussis vaccines? Doting grandmas and aunties? I don't think so.
I was also wondering about the info on "deadly shingles" in the young. I can't not find anything either. It is true that young people can get shingles, although it is less likely in a young person. If there was a way to prevent shingles by preventing chicken pox in the first place, I am positive many shingles sufferers would have had their shots (which were not available, of course), even if they required a booster every ten years. I know that shingles can be excruciatingly painful. There is no pain like nerve pain.
Here is a very interesting article on the various child-killers from not that long ago. I highlighted some of the chicken pox info:
https://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010978.htm (https://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010978.htm)/<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Chicken Pox <o:p></o:p>
Chicken pox (AKA varicella). A red itchy rash marked with blisters, low-grade fever, and aching joints that lasts for a few days. The rash appears primarily on the torso. Caused by a virus and spread by droplets or direct contact. Photo. (https://blogs.webmd.com/all-ears/uploaded_images/Varicella%20New%201-759534.JPG) Photo. (https://www.diabetesdaily.com/grace/2008/03/21/pox.jpg) Photo. (https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/projects/merck2/images/MERCK4.jpg) <o:p></o:p>
When a woman who is not immune catches chicken pox any time during pregnancy, but particularly in the first 28 weeks of pregnancy, the virus can infect her fetus, resulting in fetal varicella syndrome: <o:p></o:p>
Under-developed fingers and toes, Anal and urinary bladder sphincter,abnormalities,Spinal cord malformation, Damage to the eyes, Brain damage, Absent deep tendon reflexes <o:p></o:p>
Chicken pox is the gift that keeps on giving. It never goes away—it just becomes inactive living along the nerve pathways in the body. It can return in the form of shingles later on, when the patient is under stress, immunocompromised, or otherwise has reduced resistance.<o:p></o:p>
Larysa
06-28-2010, 07:11 PM
The Salk Institute sits on the cliffs above Torrey Pines Beach in San Diego - a huge complex on a prime piece of real estate. What's interesting and may be little known: is that Dr. Salk did not immunize his own children. Just something to think about.
Take good care!
Larysa
Barry, you've stated a whole lot of misinformation, but I'm done with arguing here on WACCO about it. Do the research yourself. If your child dies because you didn't vaccinate that comes with a punishment that will last your lifetime. If your poor judgement kills your neighbor's kid you're unlikely to feel it's your fault and you won't be prosecuted. If it happened to my kid I would certainly sue the people responsible if I possibly could.
The "natural medicine" crowd proposes we skip true immune boosting through vaccinations by substituting a lot of totally unnatural and most likely harmful vitamins and "supplements." The evidence that any form of vitamin supplementation causes harm continues to mount.
It's a belief system not a science system that discourages vaccination. This is expressed through the vehement resistance to all the studies that continually prove the safety and effectiveness of vaccines and the folly of failing to vaccinate, as in the article linked above.
There's no shaking a belief system (a delusional system) with mere facts.
Sadly, it's killing and maiming children.
-Jeff
Peace Voyager
06-28-2010, 09:31 PM
War, yeah, anyone who pays taxes these days supports war. I'll go that far.
I disagree with that.
I have been speaking for 8 years to local and Federal government for appropriate appropriations of our tax (now debt) dollars - defense NOT offense. CityCare NOT warfare, etc. etc.
Viet Nam finally ended because Christopher Dodd led the way to end the funding. He is a big dissapontment now.
Senator Byrd, (RIP), was one of my heros - please see the DVD "Body of War" by Phil Donahue to see how PL 107-246 got us into World War III without following the Constituion.
If everyone takes some action NOW, we can bring on the real change!
Please see my diary on Daily Kos for examples of what you can do too.
If we do at least one thing each day to stop the madness of optional conflict, we are not supporting war. We are doing our duty to support our country and our troops; even if the elected criminals are using it to make our troops murderers.
In peace,
:usflag:
Colleen Fernald
Sol-Solutions Integrated Solutions for Energy Independence (https://www.sol-solutions.com)
Cities for Peace (Bring the Troops Home) - Cities for Progress (https://www.citiesforpeace.org)
Lowey to Remove Assistance for Afghanistan From Foreign Aid Bill (https://appropriations.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=659:lowey-to-remove-assistance-for-afghanistan-from-foreign-aid-bill-&catid=173:homepage-state&Itemid=4)
For Immediate Release
June 28, 2010
Contact: Matt Dennis (202) 225-6506
Chairwoman Announces Oversight Hearings on Corruption in Afghanistan
WASHINGTON – Congresswoman Nita Lowey (D-NY), Chairwoman of the Appropriations State and Foreign Operations Subcommittee, today announced she is removing funding for Afghanistan beyond humanitarian aid from her 2011 bill scheduled for markup this week.
“The alleged shipment of billions in donor funds out of Afghanistan and allegations of Afghan government insiders impeding corruption investigations are outrageous,” said Lowey. “I do not intend to appropriate one more dime for assistance to Afghanistan until I have confidence that U.S. taxpayer money is not being abused to line the pockets of corrupt Afghan government officials, drug lords, and terrorists. Furthermore, the government of Afghanistan must demonstrate that corruption is being aggressively investigated and prosecuted.
“Rampant corruption fosters the conditions that threaten the security of our troops and the stability of the Afghan government and economy.”
The State and Foreign Operations Appropriations Subcommittee will mark up its Fiscal Year 2011 Appropriations Act on Wednesday June 30th. The subcommittee will not consider any bilateral assistance for the Afghan government other than lifesaving humanitarian aid at this time.
Lowey also announced the Subcommittee will hold oversight hearings after the July 4th recess to get to the bottom of these allegations.
“Too many Americans are suffering in this economy for us to put their hard-earned tax dollars into the hands of criminals overseas,” said Lowey. “We will not commit billions more in taxpayer money for Afghanistan until there are assurances that such funds will be used for their intended purposes and that the government of Afghanistan is willing and able to root out corruption within its ranks. U.S. taxpayers deserve nothing less.”
elienos
06-29-2010, 08:25 AM
It looks like this article is a blog, not a peer reviewed article. Blogs are opinion. I could tell because actually this statement has only a small amount of truth in it. "It can return in the form of shingles later on, when the patient is under stress, immunocompromised, or otherwise has reduced resistance." Please read the articles I posted, by a doctor in a peer reviewed medical journal. Less than 10% of folks with shingles are immuno-compromised. Younger and younger folks have been getting shingles because the immunity against shingles depends of regular contact with the disease chicken pox to boost immunity. This is why it used to be an old people's disease. For some reason when I debate this disease/vaccine I assume people know how chicken pox and shingles work together, but more often than not they don't
Part of the problem with finding info about that is that it has been less than a decade since this has been going on, since it was only 1995 that they added varicella to the list of vaccines. The other problem is that academic journals are not free on the internet. The varicella virus has actually evolved with humans for about 70 million years. Arrogant PEOPLE think that they can always do a better job than nature, and rarely think through the consequences. It is too bad people are so dependent on the medical industrial complex to have any thoughts that don't come from it's mainstream rhetoric.
Read Dr. Goldmans work. Virtually all positive findings presented by Dr. Goldman were incorporated into medical journal articles published by officials from the CDC and Los Angeles County Department of Health Services. There seemingly appeared to be success with a dramatic decline in reported chickenpox cases by nearly 80% from the licensure of the chickenpox vaccine on March 17, 1995 through 2000. However, the negative or deleterious findings that Goldman began objectively reporting in 2001 and thereafter were treated much differently (i.e. censored). So he was good enough to use in their articles, but only the info they liked.
When I was researching vaccines, I used the San Francisco library's database. I recycled most of the articles, so can't find a couple great ones. If you have a SF Library card you can access their medical journal database online with your card number. This is a very good resource.
Last year, my friends 4 year old got shingles , her doc thought she must have picked up subclinical chicken pox from freshly vaxed kids. Opinion, yes, but I thought that was a wierd thing for a doctor to think.
I hate that I have spent so much time on the computer debating this. Please look for info that isn't backed by profit. CDC is in big pharmas hands. Plus they don't want you to know when they make mistakes. Its all PR.
I appreciate that our public health system may be failing in not recommending booster shots for certain diseases, such as whooping cough. Sadly, it's the infected adults caring for the baby that are the most likely to pass it on. Are day care workers or pediatric nurses required to keep up on their pertussis vaccines? Doting grandmas and aunties? I don't think so.
I was also wondering about the info on "deadly shingles" in the young. I can't not find anything either. It is true that young people can get shingles, although it is less likely in a young person. If there was a way to prevent shingles by preventing chicken pox in the first place, I am positive many shingles sufferers would have had their shots (which were not available, of course), even if they required a booster every ten years. I know that shingles can be excruciatingly painful. There is no pain like nerve pain.
Here is a very interesting article on the various child-killers from not that long ago. I highlighted some of the chicken pox info:
https://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010978.htm (https://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010978.htm)/<o:p></o:p>
elienos
06-29-2010, 08:27 AM
JUST SAY NO
to cradle to grave vaccines. That's what merck is after.
Peace Voyager
06-30-2010, 12:01 PM
Senator Byrd, (RIP), was one of my heros - please see the DVD "Body of War" by Phil Donahue to see how PL 107-246 got us into World War III without following the Constituion.
Opps; the bill was Public Law 107-243
If you failed to notice - this has led to World War III, without even a declaration of war; as per the US Constitution.
You would think a president, who taught Constitutional law, and is a Democrat, would have a problem with inheriting illegally gained war powers.
I wish we could see the where the US would be now would be if Kucinich had won.
Becky Lynn
07-30-2016, 07:23 PM
Not everybody can handle what's in vaccinations. Do we even know what's all in vaccines? There are some horrible carcinogenic preservatives. Like treating like is one thing that works, it's the risk with the preservatives that is harmful to our bodies. By the way, has there ever been an unbiased study to see if unvaccinated people have health issues as much as vaccinated people do. That would be a very interesting study. A clean and healthy lifestyle seems to be the answer for the most part. Forcing people to get vaccinated goes against our rights to our freedom of choice. Many cases of diseases and deaths of people had been vaccinated for that disease. That's why we are forced to sign the release papers before getting shots. It's a huge catch 22!!
The term that keeps coming to mind is accessory to murder. That's really what the anti-vaccination crowd is guilty of. Infanticide is a pretty horrible crime. Imagine if you murdered your own or your neighbor's child based on intentional ignorance and misinformation.
Whooping Cough Epidemic in California: Lax Vaccination May Be to Blame - ABC News (https://abcnews.go.com/Health/ColdandFlu/whooping-cough-epidemic-california-lax-vaccination-blame/story?id=11000305&page=1)
-Jeff
beshiva
07-31-2016, 02:10 PM
on a side note here- since we always love to slam the folks who have differences and these folks decide to research things more deeply, or don't just take the word of the pharmacueticals, and the doctors they serve...
every child in my granddaughter's class this past year (and there were a couple, and a few more in the school as a whole who came down with whooping cough-- get this- my point, Here it comes..wait..wait.....THEY WERE ALL VACCINATED!
my granddaughter is Not vaccinated- she didn't get whooping cough.
And, over 25 years ago one of our six children got whooping cough. none of our children were vaccinated. this one child was the only one in our family who contracted it.
geez- They all survived. guess we were lucky OR whooping cough isn't so damn bad.
ps i never murdered anyone in my life! :)
The term that keeps coming to mind is accessory to murder. That's really what the anti-vaccination crowd is guilty of. Infanticide is a pretty horrible crime. Imagine if you murdered your own or your neighbor's child based on intentional ignorance and misinformation.
Whooping Cough Epidemic in California: Lax Vaccination May Be to Blame - ABC News (https://abcnews.go.com/Health/ColdandFlu/whooping-cough-epidemic-california-lax-vaccination-blame/story?id=11000305&page=1)