Proposition 14 is the most interesting ballot initiative this time around. (Prop 16, PG&E's nefarious and deceptive attempt to dis-enfranchise citizens, is not "interesting").
Basically, Prop 14 "allows all voters to choose any candidate regardless of the candidate’s or voter’s political party preference. Ensures that the two candidates receiving the greatest number of votes will appear on the general election ballot regardless of party preference", thus doing away with party based primaries.
Being that all voters could vote for any candidate, the thinking is that this would encourage more "moderate" candidates.
This would completely change the dynamics of the 2-step elections...or not. In states where such a system is already in place, incumbents have been reelected in all but one case.
Some people who are opposed to this measure think it will destroy third parties, but I disagree. Whereas now, the third parties have access to be on the November ballot, but generally don't have a real chance of winning. Under the proposed system, there would be many candidates on the June ballot, and it's conceivable that a third party could qualify for the June ballot, as one of just two candidates, with just 10% (or less) of the votes.
This could play out any number of ways depending who decides to run and how parties seek to avoid more than one affiliated candidate on the ballot.
It's hard to imagine that it would be any worse than it is now, where the primaries generally appeal to the extremes of each party, so I'm in favor if giving it a whirl!
What do you think and why?
Weiser
06-06-2010, 09:54 PM
Barry,
Right now the Republican candidate for Lt. Governor, Maldonado, has earned my vote in the November election just for getting this proposition on the ballot.
I'm not naive enough to think that this is a silver bullet in solving the problems that plague California politically. But it is a good first step. As a Democrat that isn't presumptuous enough to refer to myself as a "progressive", I'm thrilled at the prospect of casting a ballot for someone that I really like as opposed to taking what the political parties are serving up.
It isn't a coincidense that all the political parties have come out against this measure. I'm taking this opposition as an endorsement for the proposal. I'm not so sure that it will carry in those areas where there is lopsided registration for one party or another. Even among independants.
If your an independant that leans to the left virtually all moderates are to the right of you. For conservative independants moderates are to the left of them. I have this feeling that if each side thinks they have the slightest chance of getting everything they want politically,there is no incentive to compromise. For this inititive to pass enough people need to concentrate on the big picture. Whats good for ALL Californians. I'm predicting the measure failing in Sonoma County for the reason stated above, though I hope I'm wrong.
The next step in solving California's gridlock in the legislature is redisricting. There are too many safe seats. No competion. I think that Californians need to be able to choose from candidates that aren't from the socialist end of the Democratic party or candidates from the Republican side that would question Dwight Eisenhowers patriotism. No joke!
I'd conclude that the proposition is a good one and I hope it passes. I know this is fodder for another topic but a step in the wrong direction is changing the percentage of votes needed to pass a budget from 66% to 55%. The process worked in California for over a hundred years. Changing it would be tantimount to one party rule by the Democrats, as the only time the Republicans are relevant is at budget time. I think open primaries and redistricting will bring in the type of legislators needed to stop the gridlock.
Mark
"Mad" Miles
06-06-2010, 10:28 PM
I strongly, vehemently, categorically oppose Prop 14 for this simple reason. It would eliminate all third parties from electoral politics in California.
Even more than the closed primaries, this would eliminate my party, The Green Party of California / USA, the Libertarian Party, the Peace & Freedom Party (such as it is these days), the Natural Rights Party, etc. from ever appearing on a general election ballot. I believe that is Prop 14's purpose above all.
The obstacles to alternative parties are already practically insurmountable. Winner take all elections, the money game, the dominance of the Corporate Party pretending that its two puppet wings are actually opposed to each other. Things are bad enough. But this would make it impossible for third parties to get their messages out in the general election. Bad idea.
My sister, a staunch Progressive Democrat with a long track record of political / electoral involvement, said after the 2004 Presidential election that the Green Party helps push the Democrats to the left, and keeps them loyal to the constituencies it claims to represent. If that isn't enough reason to keep third parties in play, in spite of our "irrelevancy", I don't know what is.
If you're conservative, think of it this way. Would the Repubs stick to principle if the Libertarians, Perot's People's Party, and the Tea Party weren't there to hold their feet to the fire?
Some people think that partisanship is the problem. That it is why things don't get done in Sacramento and DC. Whereas I think it's because most ideas for positive change are locked out of the mainstream, sidelined, by the dominant consensus which toes the incumbent line of the duopoly. If it serves the interests of corporate finance and hegemony, good. Everything else, bad.
Yes, it's more complicated than that summary, but if you follow the patterns of what gets done, and what gets paid lip service to pacify everyone, but doesn't get done, it's an accurate generalization.
The recent news about oil exploration and how it is regulated by our government to protect the environment and us, especially people whose livelyhood was based on extracting protein from the Gulf of Mexico, is a telling case in point.
The long feature article in today's NYT's goes into all of the aggravating, outrageous and gory details of what we currently know. Basically it was a huge circle jerk, with nobody in charge. The job was being done on the cheap, corners were consistently cut, competing interests and the need to save money, while no one person was in charge of safety and emergency response, and bang, utter disaster.
Some people rail against big government here. I detest hamstrung, bought off, corrupt government which doesn't do the job the laws say it should do. Let's hear it for the legacy of Ronald Reagan, great man that he's made out to be.
Pass Prop 14 and kiss even more of this semblance of democratic rule, goodbye!
Zeno Swijtink
06-06-2010, 10:48 PM
I think the only way to give third, fourth, ... parties an opportunity to be the voice of their constituency in the elected body is to do away with the district system and the winner-takes-all voting system.
I strongly, vehemently, categorically oppose Prop 14 for this simple reason. It would eliminate all third parties from electoral politics in California.
"Mad" Miles
06-06-2010, 10:59 PM
I think the only way to give third, fourth, ... parties an opportunity to be the voice of their constituency in the elected body is to do away with the district system and the winner-takes-all voting system.
Zeno,
D'accord, De Accuerdo, Simon, I agree.
Unfortunately, with the Demoblicans having a lock on power, the day they countenance any changes that might threaten their monopoly, is probably far, far away in the future.
One strategy I think might be worth a try, which I first heard proposed ten years ago, is to get county registrars to use Ranked Preferance Voting in the party races for governing council. And to get local governments to use it as well in their elections for city council, etc. In other words create a crack in the system so that such reasonable reforms can get their nose through the door and show the efficacy and superiority of these ideas.
Assuming we have enough time to make such differences, while they still might matter...
Time for the newest episode of "Breaking Bad". Now that's an account of corporate financial efficiency!
podfish
06-08-2010, 08:50 AM
It sounded good to me for a while - and I'm not convinced by the argument that it kills smaller parties. I think it just moves their campaigns to the primary season. That's got its pluses and minuses too.
But I suspect I'm not going to like a lot of the 'compromise' candidates. To caricature the situation: right now, if a whacko right-winger wins her primary, the fringe lefty who wins the other primary will probably win in the general election, since the whackos are fortunately not a majority in California. All good so far, at least for state-wide offices - though it does leave the district offices kinda messed up. It creates campaigns like those being waged now by most of the corporate Republican candidates, all trying to make themselves sound like they're to the right of Bob Dornan (if he were around today). I think that's going to cost them in the fall, and I'm kinda glad. Under Prop 14 they'd instead be trying to push the public's perception of Brown as a dangerous socialist, and I bet they'd succeed. They'll be trying that anyway but they've already succeeded in painting themselves as right-wing extremists.
So with Prop 14 we lose both the entertainment value of the current campaigns and more seriously we increase the chances of that kind of candidate succeeding. I'm not sure why you think "someone you really like" is more likely to make it to the general election in the proposed system.
...... But it is a good first step. As a Democrat that isn't presumptuous enough to refer to myself as a "progressive", I'm thrilled at the prospect of casting a ballot for someone that I really like as opposed to taking what the political parties are serving up....
"Mad" Miles
06-08-2010, 04:20 PM
It's probably too late to influence anyone's vote today, but here's how I've been thinking of this issue since my participation in this discussion.
Since when did limiting the choices that voters have, enhance democracy?
If moderate basically means the lowest common denominator, what's being left out?
Middle of the road tends to be a position which supports the status quo, so where will change come from if we're limited to candidates who are comfortable with the way things are?
We've got a pretty screwed up electoral system, soaked in, and primarily controlled by Big Money. If Prop 14 passes, they'll just have an easier time arranging the choices we have, for us.
Weiser
06-08-2010, 10:15 PM
Miles,
I just spent 14 hours working at the polls and I'm going to hit the hay. However I just couldn't let part of your last comments on Prop. 14 slide without comment.
Congratulations. You and Rush Limbaugh have the same condecending opinion on what it is to be a political moderate. Far from being the lowest common denominator moderates are the most common denominator. Its the largest majority in California with the least representation.
Since when are fiscal responsiblity, and liberal social policy undesireable traits in a citizen. Eg. Gays should have the right to marry and the state shouldn't spend more money than it takes in. Socialism and unregulated capitalism don't work. Every vote that prop 14 receives is a testament to people NOT putting their own self interst above the common good.
Reasonable people don't enjoy the extremes of the political spectrum talking down to them. Ronald Reagan rode that wave to the White House. It shouldn't have happened.
Mark
It's probably too late to influence anyone's vote today, but here's how I've been thinking of this issue since my participation in this discussion.
Since when did limiting the choices that voters have, enhance democracy?
If moderate basically means the lowest common denominator, what's being left out?
Middle of the road tends to be a position which supports the status quo, so where will change come from if we're limited to candidates who are comfortable with the way things are?
We've got a pretty screwed up electoral system, soaked in, and primarily controlled by Big Money. If Prop 14 passes, they'll just have an easier time arranging the choices we have, for us.
"Mad" Miles
06-09-2010, 05:17 PM
...Congratulations. You and Rush Limbaugh have the same condecending opinion on what it is to be a political moderate.
...
Reasonable people don't enjoy the extremes of the political spectrum talking down to them.
...
Ronald Reagan rode that wave to the White House. It shouldn't have happened.
Mark
Mark,
Wow! You know how to hit a guy where it hurts!!
Comparing me to Rush and Ronnie, two of the most excreble political voices and forces I can imagine on the modern American scene. Ya cut me to the quick.
If I have condescended, I apologize, it was not my intent. I was just expressing my thoughts on the matter.
I must say, while you claim to be a moderate, your words are a bit... immoderate?
I have no objections to your characterization of the moderates position. Sounds reasonable to me. But how those views are harmed by the inclusion of views farther afield, in the public debate, still eludes me.
Haven't read the paper yet today so I don't even know how Prop 14 did/is doing. We shall see...
Addendum: Well, I've now glanced at the headlines and Prop 14 won. Yay, let's hear it for what I call exclusion from the process and you call inclusion of the vast majority in the middle. Let's talk in say, five, ten, fifteen, twenty years to see how this experiment is working out for California voters, taxpayers, citizens and everybody else.
And thanks for working the polls, that's solid citizenry at its best. I thanked the poll workers in Forestville just before leaving after I voted.
My thanks to all the poll workers who keep our tattered democratic process going!
(By the way, from my reading of history the process has always been tattered. The days of Party machines, rounding up the drunks at the bars, free drinks for voting, etc. are gone. The only thing I have even the faintest regret for missing out on, are the free drinks! Maybe you moderates can bring that one back?)