The Shadow Over Israel

[Cascade]

Novelist Margaret Atwood on "The Shadow Over Israel":

"The Shadow is not the Palestinians. The Shadow is Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, linked with Israeli’s own fears. The worse the Palestinians are treated in the name of those fears, the bigger the Shadow grows, and then the fears grow with them; and the justifications for the treatment multiply. "

For her full article, see The Shadow Over Israel (https://www.readersupportednews.org/off-site-opinion-section/133-133/2125-the-shadow-over-israel)

Cascade

["Mad" Miles]

Ms. Atwood is one of my favorite feminist / political novelists. A Handmaid's Tale, Cat's Cradle, etc.

So I was recently disappointed to find out she was planning to travel to Israel to accept a prize, including a large financial amount, from an ostensibly private donor, which is actually a government award.

She defended her action as art being transcendent over politics. I do not agree.

The entire affair (https://dissidentvoice.org/2010/05/dear-ms-atwood-i-regret-to-inform-you-that-you-have-failed-the-lie-detector-test/)has been covered in detail (https://dissidentvoice.org/2010/05/margaret-atwood-cashes-in/)on DissidentVoice (https://dissidentvoice.org/).

P.S. I just read her piece in Haaretz. It sounds good, but isn't anything new. The same general platitudes about everybody getting along have been said over, and over, and over. Since before the founding of Israel.

When a crime has been committed, the perpetrator needs to be brought to justice. Not rewarded, enabled, or tolerated.

The comments in the articles I linked, and the comments after Ms. Atwood's piece, are worth reading. Painful as they may be.

I'm not completely sure as to the solution. It used to be "two state". Now the radical demand has shifted to "one state" and the two state solution is demonized.

I have a lot of respect for Noam Chomsky, not as a linguist (it's not my field of study, and I heard back in the mid-eighties that his work on language had been discredited) but as a historian and political commentator. Yet he is vilified on Dissident Voice as a quisling for apartheid Israel.

It seems even allies must be excoriated and disciplined by the pure of mind and heart. Nothing new in that. The Left has always eaten it's own.

[LenInSebastopol]

I thought Cat's Cradle was a Vonnegut book?
And the Handmaid's Tale!
Aside from the insipid drag on sentences holding structure that I emulate in my worst (or is it best) moments. Long sentences making me recall diagramming while trying to find objective clauses...gadz, what a drag. And the content was beyond the pale. All Christians are right wing fanatics, as every gov't that is, produces same.....what a load. It did bring up interesting moral and ethical issues, but a better read on that matter is My Sister's Keeper. Can't say much about her politics that's not already obvious.
But I am sure Vonnegut wrote C.C. funniest book I read in high school when it was new!

["Mad" Miles]

I thought Cat's Cradle was a Vonnegut book?

I sit corrected Leninsebastopol, I misremembered. I think the correct title is Catseye. A quick google of her works would resolve the question, but I'm going to read the newspaper instead.

As for long sentences. And repetition. Don't read Pynchon's Against The Day, which I've been immersed in every night for a few minutes before sleep for several months now. You'd go crazy (er)!

[Tars]

"The Shadow is not the Palestinians. The Shadow is Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, linked with Israeli’s own fears.

From what I've seen so far, it looks like the Israelis have a bigoted view of anyone having anything to do with Gaza as "terrorists". And they're overly-hostile with any reaction they demonstrate. Activists on the ferry would have done better to practice passive resistance, than the antagonistic provocative response they gave towards armed adrenaline-spiked commandos.

I'm tired of the whole stinking bunch.

Since you posted about Israel's "shadow", In fairness to Israel, Gazans, and specifically Hamas, have some shadows of their own:


"Today, over 950,000 Israelis live within range of rocket and mortar attacks.

There have been approximately 7,200 rockets (Grads, Qassams) and mortars launched at Israel since 2005.

During 2008, there have been 1755 mortars shells, 1720 Qassams rockets, and 75 Grad missiles launched at Israel.

Since Hamas’ election there has been a steady increase of these rocket attacks against Israel’s citizens:
Between Israel’s evacuation of Gaza and the election of Hamas (Aug. 15, 2005 – Jan. 25, 2006), there was an average of over 15 rocket and mortar attacks a month.
Between Hamas’ election and Hamas’ forceful takeover of the Strip (Jan. 25, 2006 – June 14, 2007), there was an average of over 102 attacks per month—an over 650% increase.
Between Hamas’ takeover and the start of the Tahadiya (State of Calm), (June 14, 2007 – June 16, 2008), there was an average of over 361 attacks per month—an increase of an additional 350%.
On Nov. 4 – 5, Israel launched Operation “Double Challenge”, targeting a tunnel Hamas was building as part of a plan to kidnap Israeli soldiers.
From the end of Operation “Double Challenge” until the end of the Tahadiya, (Nov. 4 – Dec. 19, 2008) a period of only a month and a half, there were 170 mortars, 255 Qassams, and 5 Grads fired upon Israel’s civilian population centers.
Since the end of the Tahadiya (Dec. 19, 2009) until the beginning of Operation “Cast Lead,” (Dec. 27, 2008) a period of little more than a week, there were approximately 300 mortars and rockets fired onto Israel.
Since the begining of Operation ”Cast Lead”, there have been an additional 500 launches, 284 of which have been verified as rockets (both Qassams and Grads), and 113 as mortars." - "IDF Blog (https://idfspokesperson.com/2009/01/03/rocket-statistics-3-jan-2009/)"

[Valley Oak]

Good points.

So what are some possible solutions for the MiddleEast? Are there any? Should we send one million UN soldiers and strong arm every inch of all Israeli borders? Should we create a 2nd Jewish state in another part of the world? I have an Israeli friend who told me that it would have been much better to create a Jewish state in another part of the world, like Africa. Should we get ballsy again and expand the territory of Israel to 2 or 3 times it's current size? 50% more only? Should we grab a huge chunk of land from Jordan and call that Palestine? Should we expand Israeli territory to cover areas where we know there are huge petroleum fields underground so that they can start financing themselves and we can save most of the almost 3 billion dollars we give Israel every year?

Any ideas at all?

Thanks


From what I've seen so far, it looks like the Israelis have a bigoted view of anyone having anything to do with Gaza as "terrorists". And they're overly-hostile with any reaction they demonstrate. Activists on the ferry would have done better to practice passive resistance, than the antagonistic provocative response they gave towards armed adrenaline-spiked commandos.

I'm tired of the whole stinking bunch.

Since you posted about Israel's "shadow", In fairness to Israel, Gazans, and specifically Hamas, have some shadows of their own:


"Today, over 950,000 Israelis live within range of rocket and mortar attacks.

There have been approximately 7,200 rockets (Grads, Qassams) and mortars launched at Israel since 2005.

During 2008, there have been 1755 mortars shells, 1720 Qassams rockets, and 75 Grad missiles launched at Israel.

Since Hamas’ election there has been a steady increase of these rocket attacks against Israel’s citizens:
Between Israel’s evacuation of Gaza and the election of Hamas (Aug. 15, 2005 – Jan. 25, 2006), there was an average of over 15 rocket and mortar attacks a month.
Between Hamas’ election and Hamas’ forceful takeover of the Strip (Jan. 25, 2006 – June 14, 2007), there was an average of over 102 attacks per month—an over 650% increase.
Between Hamas’ takeover and the start of the Tahadiya (State of Calm), (June 14, 2007 – June 16, 2008), there was an average of over 361 attacks per month—an increase of an additional 350%.
On Nov. 4 – 5, Israel launched Operation “Double Challenge”, targeting a tunnel Hamas was building as part of a plan to kidnap Israeli soldiers.
From the end of Operation “Double Challenge” until the end of the Tahadiya, (Nov. 4 – Dec. 19, 2008) a period of only a month and a half, there were 170 mortars, 255 Qassams, and 5 Grads fired upon Israel’s civilian population centers.
Since the end of the Tahadiya (Dec. 19, 2009) until the beginning of Operation “Cast Lead,” (Dec. 27, 2008) a period of little more than a week, there were approximately 300 mortars and rockets fired onto Israel.
Since the begining of Operation ”Cast Lead”, there have been an additional 500 launches, 284 of which have been verified as rockets (both Qassams and Grads), and 113 as mortars." - "IDF Blog (https://idfspokesperson.com/2009/01/03/rocket-statistics-3-jan-2009/)"

[Icssoma]

thanks for the simple clear post. (i skipped right over cat's cradle & saw the cover of the cd/& book, the cat's eye...) the substance matters.
it does seem a bit hypocritical. will not rush to judge but wait for other informative & clean (prose) postings. refreshing.
skip the ones that are excessive w. out saying anything new. (tho loved the piece barry posted from the times "on the 40 year itch"...clean /simple/concise & thoughtful writing. how rare.


Ms. Atwood is one of my favorite feminist / political novelists. A Handmaid's Tale, Cat's Cradle, etc.

So I was recently disappointed to find out she was planning to travel to Israel to accept a prize, including a large financial amount, from an ostensibly private donor, which is actually a government award.

She defended her action as art being transcendent over politics. I do not agree.

The entire affair (https://dissidentvoice.org/2010/05/dear-ms-atwood-i-regret-to-inform-you-that-you-have-failed-the-lie-detector-test/)has been covered in detail (https://dissidentvoice.org/2010/05/margaret-atwood-cashes-in/)on DissidentVoice (https://dissidentvoice.org/).

P.S. I just read her piece in Haaretz. It sounds good, but isn't anything new. The same general platitudes about everybody getting along have been said over, and over, and over. Since before the founding of Israel.

When a crime has been committed, the perpetrator needs to be brought to justice. Not rewarded, enabled, or tolerated.

The comments in the articles I linked, and the comments after Ms. Atwood's piece, are worth reading. Painful as they may be.

I'm not completely sure as to the solution. It used to be "two state". Now the radical demand has shifted to "one state" and the two state solution is demonized.

I have a lot of respect for Noam Chomsky, not as a linguist (it's not my field of study, and I heard back in the mid-eighties that his work on language had been discredited) but as a historian and political commentator. Yet he is vilified on Dissident Voice as a quisling for apartheid Israel.

It seems even allies must be excoriated and disciplined by the pure of mind and heart. Nothing new in that. The Left has always eaten it's own.

[Icssoma]

thanks for the balance--how refreshing! if we continue to interact rationally, & work for social change, perhaps we will be effective.
besides the "ad infinitum" writing, larger egos get in the way.



Good points.

So what are some possible solutions for the MiddleEast? Are there any? Should we send one million UN soldiers and strong arm every inch of all Israeli borders? Should we create a 2nd Jewish state in another part of the world? I have an Israeli friend who told me that it would have been much better to create a Jewish state in another part of the world, like Africa. Should we get ballsy again and expand the territory of Israel to 2 or 3 times it's current size? 50% more only? Should we grab a huge chunk of land from Jordan and call that Palestine? Should we expand Israeli territory to cover areas where we know there are huge petroleum fields underground so that they can start financing themselves and we can save most of the almost 3 billion dollars we give Israel every year?

Any ideas at all?

Thanks

[LenInSebastopol]

Good points.
So what are some possible solutions for the MiddleEast? Are there any? Should we send one million UN soldiers and strong arm every inch of all Israeli borders? Should we create a 2nd Jewish state in another part of the world? I have an Israeli friend who told me that it would have been much better to create a Jewish state in another part of the world, like Africa. Should we get ballsy again and expand the territory of Israel to 2 or 3 times it's current size? 50% more only? Should we grab a huge chunk of land from Jordan and call that Palestine? Should we expand Israeli territory to cover areas where we know there are huge petroleum fields underground so that they can start financing themselves and we can save most of the almost 3 billion dollars we give Israel every year? Any ideas at all?
Thanks

A "solution" of peace seems as a pipe dream.
Killing is one way, no? I mean, they seem to be consenting adults desiring to do so with their response to "War is not the answer" is "You've asked the wrong question". The whole lot sickens me. Both have some notion of Justice that is warped away from their own good.

[Icssoma]

the middle east is unto itself.
getting off of oil. sponsoring exchange camps w. youth (palestinian's & israelites, & more now that we have opened up the kurds, the turks, the british made countries. i thought we learned that lesson in vietnam, but know.
advocate for humanitarian aid, where we are the humanitarians on the ground.
stop being the ugly americans of war. WE CAN NOT FIX EVERYTHING. and we best stop f...ing up so much.
there are some great peace groups in israel. afsc does an amazing job for options here.
shop carefully.
avoid chinese products. don't buy nike & other sweat shop manufacturers.
their isn't one ANSWER. it's our daily choices.
but most of all w. the exception of few buy locallly. friends don't let friends shop at wal mart. use one's car judiciously. work on an amendment to overturn citizen's united.
for us to have real power we need to listen to eishenhower's words about "being aware of the military industrial complex". the damage of the bush years may not be able to be undone in our life time--depending on your age.
jefferson said something similar.
if you find a republican that is one of the 60's or 70's vein, who probably votes as a democrat, is it possible to get the fundamentalists from driving their party.
call for bill halter this weekend, monday & get the "blue dog demos" out of congress.
give your $5 or $25 to move on, dfa, as they seem to have a small handle on making a dent.
locally, tues. vote. support prevention. decriminalization of drugs.
drug rehabs in every neighborhood. mentoring programs. after school programs. $ into mental health. none of us should want to live in a state where our #1 industry is prison.
these major corporations are not only fashioning our governments, but many DO NOT PAY TAXES. how interesting under kennedy that the corporate tax rate was 70%. I'd be thrilled now with 20% across the board w. out loopholes. do i hear 25.
remind all that small businesses create more jobs for each $ spent.
try to buy computers & parts from the santa rosa store on piner.
if everyone shopped differently, and i realize we have to combine trips, and sometimes leaving sebastopol is not cost effective...join a food co-op.
if we don't take back corporate power our ideas and ideals will be drops in the bucket. not that social change doesn't start there, but we could be releasing the flood gates.
rather circuitious. but spending my life (6 years old trick or treating for unicef, & yes i was totally generous of my sister that got candy---my mom would not allow me to accept both, i have since recovered.)
daily we vote with our dollars, and then we have elections, here tuesday & the critical race in arkansas. (computer calling is fun and easy).
vacation on the river. bodega, & california if possible. 100 choices every day for each of us.
we all choose wisely, we WILL CHANGE THE WORLD.
(ps, i have relatives in israel, from poland/russia--depending on the week. my parents were 3 out of 4 --their parents--lst generation. i define myself as a unitarian jew...the culture of the latter runs deep).
always working for peace. foster children. animals. group homes. shelters for battered women and their children.
i am clear this is probably not what you wanted. but in 52 years with some consciousness, this is what i have come to, these are the places where i put my energy. we need to stop outsourcing torture, garbage & more.
it is very connected.
and sometimes, as w. children, you must help provide a foundation, but let them work things out.
no doubt others will have better answers, perhaps more "spot on". these are clearly mine.
blessings on your day.


A "solution" of peace seems as a pipe dream.
Killing is one way, no? I mean, they seem to be consenting adults desiring to do so with their response to "War is not the answer" is "You've asked the wrong question". The whole lot sickens me. Both have some notion of Justice that is warped away from their own good.