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Barry
05-29-2010, 02:26 PM
I have discontinued Kaya's membership.


Why, because she disagreed with you, and pointed out some inconvenient truths? I've been called far worse than that by several of your members, and you didn't think to censor them.

Barry, for a man who preaches tolerance and patience, you don't seem to have much when somebody disagrees with you.

Again I say: The most closed minds I have ever encountered have been on the extreme right, and the extreme Left. They speak of patience, tolerance, and understanding, and are complete hypocrites.

If you as moderator didn't have the wisdom to put such a volatile subject as illegal immigration in the free-for-all category, then you only have yourself to blame when anyone steps out of line. I read the thread through and it's clear that both sides were heating up. Again, it falls on you as moderator to either anticipate these things, or to let it run it's course.

Again I ask: If you are going to kick people off for calling one another "an effing crybaby", then why have you not "protected" me when I have been verbally assaulted?

Your motto is "Connecting Conscious Community" and you use the word "Progressive", but these are simply catch-all phrases adopted by the Left more than the Right, but actually used by both as a way of saying: "Look, I'm more forward thinking and aware of my actions than you are", thus they don't actually describe only Liberals as some would think. Therefore you open yourself to people of all different ideals.

If you want to have a site where dissenting opinions are strongly discouraged, by selectively removing anybody you don't agree with, then call yourself Pravda, and change your motto to: "Connecting Intolerant Community". From the attitudes I often get here, it would sometimes seem more appropriate.

However, don't be surprised if the people you remove go to your advertisers and explain why they are boycotting them for supporting you.

I'm sure your job isn't easy, but you did choose it. May I suggest that you practice some of that tolerance, patience and understanding you talk about,. The fact that you saw it as necessary to inform the other members that you have kicked Kaya off, especially without an explanation, comes across as gloating, and that's not a pretty thing.

It's too bad, because Kaya had some very good things to say, and if you read her posts through, you find more love than anger when she disagreed with someone, and again, I can't say this about all of your members.

It's your site, just my suggestions and opinions...


Best regards, KAT

Thank you for your feedback, Karen.

I hold "progressive" as roughly equivalent for "left-leaning". This site is for the community that feels more or less aligned with moderate left/liberal/progressive values. I would say Obama's general orientation, if he didn't have to work with the realities of democratic government (i.e. Republicans, fund raising, etc.) and various compromises that are required to work with those constraints, as roughly the center of gravity of the political spectrum for both the original and target community that this board serves.

Views outside of this spectrum, both further to the left (nationalize the banks, etc.) and the right are welcome so long as they are thoughtful, respectful and generally contribute to the discussion. I consider such posters as "guests" and expect them to be considerate while presenting their POV.

Any POV, if presented in a way that is disrespectful, hateful, shrill, or otherwise offensive (not just not in agreement) to our core values is not welcome. Such posters may be tolerated for a while, as Kaya was, or not. Often they will get a private note from me, though Kaya didn't. When the time comes that they become nuisance or in any way a detraction of this common space, particularly if they are a frequent poster, they will be removed.

Kaya ranted his (his profile identified him as a male) intolerance about "new America" and "old America" and how "America is a Christian nation" long enough. He was far to the extreme right and beginning to whine and throw a tanturm (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/censored-un-censored/67760-join-wacco-readers-bash-america-christianity.html#post114495) that nobody agreed with him (aside from you, Karen). Clearly he didn't belong here.

Freedom of speech does not apply here. This board is not for general public, but rather for the liberal/progressive community.

That said, I truly do welcome thoughtful alternative viewpoints. I assure you there are many, many POVs that are presented here, including yours Karen, that I vehemently disagree with. You have pushed the boundaries at times, but I acknowledge your well written and thoughtful posts. They are fine with me as long as your don't dominate the conversation (particularly many conversations/threads).

Libertarianism is a bit of a special case. It's clearly a rising tide and needs to be addressed and I welcome that POV here to join the discussions, but not dominate them.

While I respect the fundamental values of Libertarians (Individual freedom), as well as the intellectual purity that of the movement, I don't think it is a viable or acceptable way to run a society, at least here in the USA at this time. Rand Paul's current self-destruction is a good case in point.

None the less, the libertarians do bring a worthy POV to the discussion of the proper extent of government, if sometimes rather silly ("keep your government hands off my Medicare." (https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/27/AR2009072703066_2.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2009072703107) ). Please present it in moderation.


Please don't dominate the rap Jack
if you got nothing new to say (https://artsites.ucsc.edu/gdead/agdl/spee.html)

Debunker
05-29-2010, 03:00 PM
Karen the KAT wrote:
"Why, because she disagreed with you...?"

This just shows you aren't paying attention. I think Barry's too tolerant of antagonistic, obnoxious, narcissistic people, regardless of their political position.

Hotspring 44
05-29-2010, 05:40 PM
Why, because she disagreed with you, and pointed out some inconvenient truths? I've been called far worse than that by several of your members, and you didn't think to censor them.<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CSH%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->

I think there are some differences between off the cuff statements of which could be considered and may indeed be name calling. Those differences can be rather significant depending upon the implied or actual intent, and how they are perceived by the person that is (theoretically) being slurred and/or being called name/s.

Also I think if you felt attacked, that maybe you should have mentioned it to the perpetrator that you felt attacked (if you did feel attacked regarding the name-calling, you mentioned). In a non confrontational way, or said something to Barry about it if you felt it to be (even if it is something else) that the rule: [I]15) TROLLS: (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb-net-faq/886-posting-guidelines.html) would cover that you experienced. <o:p></o:p>


Barry, for a man who preaches tolerance and patience, you don't seem to have much when somebody disagrees with you.

I disagree,I myself have not found that statement to be so factual.

The reason I do not believe that statement to be factual is; I see so many disagreeing opinions being said, some of which have a lot of passion whereas, I cannot imagine anybody agreeing with all of them.
So therefore I find it impossible to honestly believe that anybody would agree with everything that is said on this website.


Again I say: The most closed minds I have ever encountered have been on the extreme right, and the extreme Left. They speak of patience, tolerance, and understanding, and are complete hypocrites.

I also say in essence, the same thing, but I must mention that there is a such thing as the extreme center that I think falls under the lack of tolerance and patience and understanding you mentioned also.


If you as moderator didn't have the wisdom to put such a volatile subject as illegal immigration in the free-for-all category, then you only have yourself to blame when anyone steps out of line. I read the thread through and it's clear that both sides were heating up. Again, it falls on you as moderator to either anticipate these things, or to let it run it's course.

I think it is running its course. it seems to me that you just happen to disagree with how it has gone in this case.


Again I ask: If you are going to kick people off for calling one another "an effing crybaby", then why have you not "protected" me when I have been verbally assaulted?

I think you may be overlooking something?... ... Like: <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CSH%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><link rel="Edit-Time-Data" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CSH%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_editdata.mso"><!--> <style> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; 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mso-border-insidev:.5pt solid windowtext; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> <table class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top"> Kaya wrote: <u3:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" u4:spt="75" u4:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"><u3:stroke joinstyle="miter"><u3:formulas><u3:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"><u3:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"><u3:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"><u3:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"><u3:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"><u3:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"><u3:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"><u3:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"><u3:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"><u3:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"><u3:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"><u3:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></u3:f><u3:path u4:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" u4:connecttype="rect"><u4:lock u3:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"></u4:lock><u3:shape id="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="View Post" href="https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccotalk/66560-wacco-poll-arizonas-tough-new-immigration-law-post114497.html#post114497" style="width: 9pt; height: 9pt;" u4:button="t"><u3:imagedata src="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CSH%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_image001.gif" u4:href="https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/orangebuttons/viewpost.gif"></u3:imagedata><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/> </v:formulas> <v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/> <o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/> </v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="View Post" style='width:9pt;height:9pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\SH\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif" o:href="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\SH\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]-->file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/SH/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif<!--[endif]--></u3:shape></u3:path></u3:f></u3:f></u3:f></u3:f></u3:f></u3:f></u3:f></u3:f></u3:f></u3:f></u3:f></u3:formulas></u3:stroke></u3:shapetype> (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccotalk/66560-wacco-poll-arizonas-tough-new-immigration-law-post114497.html#post114497)<o:p></o:p>
<u4:p></u4:p> [I]Hey Tonto I want to let you know I pulled the kids out of bed while they were sleeping scared the shit out of them and told them they needed to feel horrible for what they were responsible for YOU KNOW killing your food supply and anscestors off and stealing your land....they didnt get it so I scalped them ....would that make you feel better fucking cry baby GET OVER IT!!!!! and have some PRIDE...your embarsing to your own kind .<u4:p></u4:p><o:p></o:p>
<u4:p> <o:p></o:p></u4:p>
</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <u4:p></u4:p><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CSH%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->I can't speak for Barry but, do you really believe that consistent, Hateful and abusive speech like that from one individual is acceptable or should be tolerated here?


Your motto is "Connecting Conscious Community" and you use the word "Progressive", but these are simply catch-all phrases adopted by the Left more than the Right, but actually used by both as a way of saying: "Look, I'm more forward thinking and aware of my actions than you are", thus they don't actually describe only Liberals as some would think. Therefore you open yourself to people of all different ideals.

I thought (and still do believe) that "Connecting Conscious Community" is one of the main, if not the main objective here.



If you want to have a site where dissenting opinions are strongly discouraged, by selectively removing anybody you don't agree with, then call yourself Pravda, and change your motto to: "Connecting Intolerant Community". From the attitudes I often get here, it would sometimes seem more appropriate.

That's your opinion, you expressed it, and I don't think you're going to get booted off of the website for it either. in fact, I think your opinion even though it may be disagreed with is actually welcome here.

I think that some people have very strong opinions and some people just get to combative and that is what I believe happened in this case.


However, don't be surprised if the people you remove go to your advertisers and explain why they are boycotting them for supporting you.

Once again, I cannot speak for Barry or the advertisers here, but... whatever happens regarding that, I think Barry and the advertisers are capable of handling it.


I'm sure your job isn't easy, but you did choose it. May I suggest that you practice some of that tolerance, patience and understanding you talk about,. The fact that you saw it as necessary to inform the other members that you have kicked Kaya off, especially without an explanation, comes across as gloating, and that's not a pretty thing.

I think in this particular instance it is more of a reassurance to other people that the person that was making terrorist (combative), hateful statements will no longer be here to threaten, pick fights with, or frighten them anymore; from, or with, this website as a tool; then it is as you say; "[I]gloating".... ...or maybe even a private mutual agreement with Kaya was made behind the scenes, and not public. I don't know I'm just suggesting the possibility.


It's too bad, because Kaya had some very good things to say, and if you read her posts through, you find more love than anger when she disagreed with someone, and again, I can't say this about all of your members.

I don't know exactly how to say this but I'll try. (My analogy)...
...People have been poisoned by arsenic even though there was far more food or drink, and yet it was still toxic.
Sometimes relationships in public and/or private are simply toxic, even though there is quantitatively more love than hate or malice, in which case his books everybody involved to disassociate at that point in time.


It's your site, just my suggestions and opinions...

BTW, Peace: just my suggestions and opinions.



Best regards, KAT


Also Barry has stated some rules for the whole website, on [I]this page (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb-net-faq/886-posting-guidelines.html), such as: <o:p></o:p> <table class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: medium none;" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top"> “(5) BE RESPECTFUL: You are welcome to disagree with someone but you may not attack them in any way, either publicly or privately. This includes slurs against population groups. Also, any private email should remain private unless you have the author's permission to post it. If you receive inappropriate private email in response to your post on WaccoBB.net, please Contact Us ([email protected]).”…

…: “7) RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE. Any posts that are deemed inappropriate will be removed. Persistent failure to comply with these guidelines will result in having your posts require pre-approval or being banned from the system”…

…And: “15) TROLLS: If a member is judged to be a troll based on a review of their posts and people’s reactions, steps will be taken limit their access to board; Trolling will be identified by a consistent pattern of several criteria:<o:p></o:p>
Not supplying a real name (that can be verified)<o:p></o:p>
Frequent posting<o:p></o:p>
Post that engender irritated and emotional responses<o:p></o:p>
Posts that attack/question and are otherwise confrontational to others point of view<o:p></o:p>
Hijacking discussions<o:p></o:p>
Post that baits and provoke other group members, often with the result of drawing them into fruitless argument”<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>
</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <o:p> It has not happened to me, in regards to this, but it is possible other people have been harassed beyond what is in the public view. But I don't know if in this case that has happened at all.

Best regards to all:
Hotspring 44
</o:p>

"Mad" Miles
05-29-2010, 05:55 PM
Barry,

Thanks for your patience and tolerance.

Where I would draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable discourse on the board, is in the area of personal threats and insults. And sweeping dismissive racist claims against entire ethnic/social groups.

Anyone engaging in those needs to be warned once, and if they persist, swept aside because they've proven themselves incapable of civil discourse in this public arena.

The "Censored & UnCensored" category is a compromise, I understand that. But I still think that direct insults, threats and racist categorization should not even be tolerated there. Bawdy humor, cuss words, harsh graphic images, fine, no problem. But personal attacks, attacks on classes of people, and promises of retribution and punishment for perceived inequities and crimes? No.

There are plenty of chat boards all over the internet for anyone who wants that kind of "discussion". One of the reasons I spend most of my virtual socializing time on waccobb.net is because it isn't a free for all where trolls and ideological demagogues get to dominate.

Lately I've been tempted to withdraw my time and attention because it seems to me that that was beginning to be the case here. But there's been a response from regulars/veterans which has given me hope.

Arguments that devolve to: "You're evil, you're stupid, etc." aren't going anywhere. I have called statements made, actions described or advocated, "evil", but I am always careful to distinguish that from a claim about the character of the person making the statement. Others, are not so careful, or just don't get the distinction.

When someone consistently slimes individuals, or groups*, it's time for them to find somewhere else to play. This isn't it.

*And in this category I include such groups as, "The American (U.S.) people" (Sorry Edward/VO!?) as well as "all Leftists", "all Rightists", "all Libertarians", "all undocumented immigrants", "all rich people", "all poor people", "all Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc.".

Thanks again,