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Zeno Swijtink
05-10-2010, 10:41 PM
Thursday 6 May 2010
Alex Standish
The hypocrisy of Arizona bashing (https://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/earticle/8795/)
If the Grand Canyon state’s immigration laws seem authoritarian, wait till you see what the Democrats are proposing.

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How is it that, in one breath, Democratic senators in the US Congress can denounce Arizona state’s new immigration law as racist and, in the next, submit proposals to introduce some of the most draconian immigration policies in the world? The Arizona state government has been lambasted for demanding anyone suspected of being an illegal immigrant to ‘show us your papers’, but the Democrats want to go even further, demanding that immigrants ‘show us your biometric data card’.

Arizona’s new immigration legislation (Senate Bill 1070) was signed into law on 23 April by Republican governor Jan Brewer, and will come into effect this July. One section in particular has drawn a lot of criticism. It says that enforcement of the law ‘[r]equires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the US’.

Given that phrases like ‘legitimate contact’ and ‘reasonable suspicion’ are vague enough to provide police with significant leeway when deciding who to approach, critics have not been slow to see the the potential for racially-infused abuse. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi called the law ‘misguided and irresponsible’; President Obama suggested it was ‘unfair’. Others have been rather less restrained, likening Arizona to Nazi Germany.

The criticism has been backed up by threats, too. California has talked about breaking economic ties with Arizona; corporations and professional associations have said they will relocate conferences and meetings; and New York Democrat Jose E Serrano even suggested that next year’s All-Star Major League Baseball Game should be moved from Arizona’s capital city, Phoenix. Such has been the level of outrage that on Saturday there were pro-immigrant rallies in a number of US cities including Los Angeles, Dallas, Chicago and Washington DC, ranging in size from a few hundred to 50,000. By the end of the week Governor Brewer backtracked and was adding a follow-on bill to outlaw racial profiling in Arizona.

The few in favour of the bill point to the state’s swelling number of illegal immigrants (estimated at a few hundred thousand) and the failure of Congress to pass immigration reform. ‘Arizona’s law makes what is already a federal offence – being in the country illegally – a state offence’ asserts George Will in the Washington Post. Effectively then, Arizona is merely taking it upon itself to enforce immigration controls that exist at a federal level, suggests Will.

However, critics of the immigration law are correct about its implications. In a state that has become the main crossing point for Mexicans into America, how does a police officer suspect a person of being there illegally without considering the colour of his skin? Effectively, the law gives the police the green light to question the immigration status of any Latino they like. This is not to ignore the prior use of racial profiling by Mexican border states as a response to immigration. It is just that while racial profiling has been used extensively before, it was not then legal. Arizona’s new immigration law will now provide a defence against potential race discrimination lawsuits. By writing discriminatory practices into law, Arizona’s state government is codifying the second-class status of all immigrants and legalising policies of harassment towards Latinos.

Unfortunately, too many of Arizona’s immigration law’s critics are let down by double standards. No sooner have they damned Arizonans as white supremacists and un-American than they turn around with their own plans to keep would-be immigrants from coming to America. And so it was that last week, that at the same time as liberals were laying the proverbial boot into Arizona, Democrats submitted to Congress an outline of their plans for immigration reform including: a social security card containing a biometric data chip; an electronic system which requires employers to monitor the immigration status of their employees by scanning social security cards; and a system to catch and deport individuals who overstay their visas. Whereas Republicans have long opposed the introduction of just such an identity card scheme on the basis that it infringes upon individual freedom, liberals have had no such qualms about these authoritarian measures. ‘I’d be a lot more sympathetic to [Arizona’s immigration] law, in fact, if it required the police to check the immigration status of every single person they pulled over’, writes Megan McArdle in Atlantic Monthly.



At the same time as catching illegal immigrants, the Democrats’ proposal would also expedite the residency status of high-skilled immigrants, especially those who have an advanced degree in science or technology from an American university. Or, put another way, Democrats plan to adopt a ‘zero tolerance’ policy towards poor people who are not in a position to obtain a visa but want to come to America to work their way up from the bottom (just like most immigrants to America). At the same time, however, they plan to welcome respectable, well-dressed and well-educated immigrants. Effectively, Democrats are saying that Arizona’s discrimination is bad, but our more sophisticated form of discrimination is okay. In my view, racial profiling may well be un-American, but so too is immigration legislation that denies poor people a shot at the opportunities available to those living in the US.

As some commentators have pointed out, Arizona is not the problem. The state government may well have stepped over a line that many Americans find unpalatable, but it is far from alone in passing anti-immigrant bills. In the first three months of 2010 alone over one thousand bills and resolutions aimed at immigrants were introduced at state level, a number of which were passed into law.

Mostly, such bills addressed employment verification, eligibility for unemployment and other benefits, requiring proof of immigration status for driving licenses and other state documentation, and bills addressing bail, parole, no-plea bargains and other court proceedings with respect to immigrants. Even the most liberal states such as Massachusetts have tabled bills to deny welfare to undocumented workers (although this particular one failed to pass into law). Neither is state enforcement of immigration something that the federal government has discouraged. On the contrary, through an amendment to the Immigration and Nationality Act, the Department for Homeland Security has signed 66 section 287(g) agreements with 23 states delegating enforcement functions to state and local enforcement agencies. This makes local law enforcement an extension of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). Funding for this programme rose from $5million in 2006 to $68million in 2010.

This week’s finger-pointing at Arizona is not a cry in defence of immigrants. Rather it is a case of liberals finding a counterpoint against which they can be seen to stand for something. It’s a stance that consists of little more than saying ‘we are not like those right-wingers… we don’t go around harassing people on the basis of what they look like’. For these people, Arizona-bashing is as self-serving as the attacks on Sarah Palin. It makes them look good and gives them a sense of purpose in the absence of doing something about the country’s many problems.

Of course, there is also the real world in which immigrants actually live and there are those who genuinely do support immigrants coming to America and having the same chances that they did. Many of these people were no doubt out in number on this weekend’s rallies, but, unfortunately, there is no political representation of their views. Other than a few murmurs that immigration is good for the economy, there is no moral case being put forward that welcoming immigrants is a virtue around which to build a society (previously known as the American Dream).

Then there are also residents of Arizona who are worried for their own security as violence and drug gangs from Mexico spill into their state. The vastly different levels of affluence and development on either side of the border make for an unstable situation. Yet this instability needs to be seen for what it is: a problem of law and order created by the inequalities of capitalism, not the fault of immigrants seeking a better life for themselves and their families. What is clear in this debate on immigration is the chasm between political rhetoric and the real lives of Americans, including those seeking to become American citizens. Both Republicans and Democrats are proposing anti-immigration measures which are more symbolic and self-serving than serious attempts to meet people’s needs. Looking back, the failed 2007 immigration reform bill proposed under then President George W Bush looks almost humanitarian by comparison.

While this bill did also include measures to strengthen border controls and an employment verification system it was mainly designed to legalise the status of the millions of undocumented immigrants working here. Over the past three years opinion towards immigration has hardened, as evidenced by all the anti-immigrant state bills. The new Democratic Party proposal does still include a path to legal status for such immigrants, but this is now seen more as an inconvenience in what is otherwise an authoritarian clamping-down on immigrants, the aim of which is to stop the flow of undocumented migrants across the southern border. Welcome to post-immigration America although, thankfully, word has it that the likelihood of Congress passing immigration reform this year is small, which is time enough to rebuild the moral case for immigration.

Alex Standish is an assistant professor of geography at Western Connecticut State University and author of Global Perspectives in the Geography Curriculum: Reviewing the Moral Case for Geography, published by Routledge. (Buy this book from Amazon(UK).) Contributing material to this article has been provided by Joel Nathan Rosen, associate professor of sociology at Moravian College and co-author of Reconstructing Fame: Race, Sport, and Evolving Reputations.

decterlove
05-11-2010, 08:58 AM
Thank you Zeno....lots of good stuff in there. I have yet to see what the big problem of showing id/papers is. If I walk down to the market to get a soda, I always take my wallet and if I drive without a registration, I risk getting a ticket. While I can sympathize with the discomfort of someone who is Latin and who has four generations of U.S. citizenship behind him being stopped and asked for proof of citizenship, I see no indication of random roadblocks, harrassment or anything else in what I've read or heard about enforcing this law which has apparently been on the books anyway since 1940.

We are not going to solve any of the immense problems facing our culture without a little discomfort here and there that we are all going to learn to have to bear.....here and there.

LenInSebastopol
05-11-2010, 08:35 PM
I am under the impression there has to be reasonable cause to detain someone and then the cop may ask for proof of citizenship.
What about Canadians, eh?
What if it's aboot Minnesotans who look like Canadians, ayeh? Or is everyone suppose to have proof of citizenship?
All kidding aside, that is where this will be steered towards.

Tars
05-11-2010, 09:00 PM
I see no indication of random roadblocks, harrassment or anything else in what I've read or heard about enforcing this law which has apparently been on the books anyway since 1940.

It's always a worthy topic of discussion to critically examine the powers and privileges of law enforcement entities. The current questions, offered by AZ, include: should a law enforcement officer have the legal right to detain anyone, most especially people of color, on nothing more than a hunch, without probable cause?

And, do most citizens believe it's worth it to give up from the status quo, a small part of our right to move about freely in a legal manner, in order to...protect our personal safety, workforce, and national treasure, from the threat of improperly-documented foreign workers?

Arizona's law is divisive, and may be determined ultimately to be an intrusion on citizen privacy. But on one level I commend AZ for taking leading action, albeit misguided, which re-energizes national debate, and forces our timid "leaders" to clarify their positions on this issue.


We are not going to solve any of the immense problems facing our culture without a little discomfort here and there that we are all going to learn to have to bear.....here and there.Brings to mind a Bruce Cockburn (https://brucecockburn.com/) song, "The Trouble With Normal Is It Always Gets Worse".

Then there's this troubling historical U.S. philosophy to run the issue through:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

US Declaration of Independence

Debunker
05-11-2010, 11:22 PM
"We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

US Declaration of Independence

Do you think there should be any limit on immigration? If 20 million illegal Mexican immigrants have "inalienable rights" to ignore our laws in their pursuit of happiness, how can we say no to the other couple of billion people in the world who would love to live here?

LenInSebastopol
05-12-2010, 06:02 AM
Is it true that this country allows more legal immigrants that all the world countries combined? Flipping around the radio the other day and I heard that assertion. Amazed, I was.

Tars
05-12-2010, 11:43 AM
Do you think there should be any limit on immigration?

Yes.


If 20 million illegal Mexican immigrants have "inalienable rights" to ignore our laws in their pursuit of happiness, how can we say no to the other couple of billion people in the world who would love to live here?

For myself, I don't think foreign workers have all the "inalienable rights" that U.S. citizens have. I think we, as U.S. citizens, need to be extremely careful that we don't give away rights that our U.S. ancestors have enjoyed for hundreds of years, just to address a very short-term problem. We can exercise that care by not making hasty half-assed laws that may make some of us feel a tad more comfortable, but only in the very short term, as in AZ.

Like hundreds of millions of other U.S. citizens, I want to see a U.S. Immigration policy that addresses the current lack of a workable foreign worker policy. I want to see a system in which people from whatever country can obtain a visa so they can work here temporarily, for a specifically-defined period of time (in the quantities we as a nation define), pay income taxes, and all the other deductions, same as citizens, enjoy the same specific benefits which those taxes and benefits provide, (but not all the same benefits as citizens have) ,and then go home when they're done. Limit the number of ins-and-outs.

That plan would include heavy penalties - fines, permanent deportation, even incarceration for repeat offender foreign workers who try to circumvent the legal process. In that scenario I could also see the appropriateness of heavy fines, loss of license, even criminal penalties, for employers who employ non-visa offenders.

Many U.S. citizens, especially those out of work, gnash their teeth about foreign workers working here for "slave wages". They maintain that employers should pay U.S. workers a "fair" wage instead. (usually $5-$10 more than is currently being paid) I don't think that's accurate. I've found that the specifics of a particular job matter much more than pay rate. There're a whole bunch of jobs that U.S. workers aren't willing to do. They may do them when they're broke, and need any job they can get. But as soon as they get a bit of cash in their pockets, they start performing less, and need to take more "sick" days, or tend to their ill mother/father/aunt, sister, etc.

Economics trumps legality. The solution(s) to our current immigration SNAFU need to address the economic realities first. We do ourselves, as citizens, grave injury, if we just try to address immigration like AZ is doing, by punitive means.

Debunker
05-12-2010, 12:00 PM
As has been pointed out, we already have more legal immigrants than most of the rest of the countries in the world, combined.

And 20 million illegal immigrants from Mexico, with half a million more sneaking into the US each year is not a "very short term" problem, it's an economic and social disaster.


Yes.
For myself, I don't think foreign workers have all the "inalienable rights" that U.S. citizens have. I think we, as U.S. citizens, need to be extremely careful that we don't give away rights that our U.S. ancestors have enjoyed for hundreds of years, just to address a very short-term problem. We can exercise that care by not making hasty half-assed laws that may make some of us feel a tad more comfortable, but only in the very short term, as in AZ....

LenInSebastopol
05-12-2010, 01:05 PM
There already are limits on immigration!
Minor point: "inalienable rights" cannot be "more" or "less" than any other rights anywhere on the planet. This gov't began as positing them and then protecting them. NONE of those rights COME from gov't, but it is gov't's job to protect them. Minor point but important to keep in mind.
If I understand what you mean, then yes, I agree, economic determination should be made to aliens and immigrants when coming to this country.
The gov't no longer works when it comes to Mexico (both sides of the border) in that both cannot protect it's OWN citizens from the actions of a few strong criminal syndicates, either in smuggling drugs and humans, and killings. A year ago our media cried that Mexico is a failed gov't; surprise kids, when it comes to this so's ours! And Arizona is trying to address the issue, as well as call attention to it. The murder rate will not be contained "over there", nor will the terror. A couple of years ago it was rumored that the MS 13 (treacherous El Salvadorian gang) had responded to Hamas and was assisting in smuggling fundies over here from the South.
All that you ask below is already in the law books, just not enforced. So now what?


Yes.
For myself, I don't think foreign workers have all the "inalienable rights" that U.S. citizens have. I think we, as U.S. citizens, need to be extremely careful that we don't give away rights that our U.S. ancestors have enjoyed for hundreds of years, just to address a very short-term problem. We can exercise that care by not making hasty half-assed laws that may make some of us feel a tad more comfortable, but only in the very short term, as in AZ. Like hundreds of millions of other U.S. citizens, I want to see a U.S. Immigration policy that addresses the current lack of a workable foreign worker policy. I want to see a system in which people from whatever country can obtain a visa so they can work here temporarily, for a specifically-defined period of time (in the quantities we as a nation define), pay income taxes, and all the other deductions, same as citizens, enjoy the same specific benefits which those taxes and benefits provide, (but not all the same benefits as citizens have) ,and then go home when they're done. Limit the number of ins-and-outs.
That plan would include heavy penalties - fines, permanent deportation, even incarceration for repeat offender foreign workers who try to circumvent the legal process. In that scenario I could also see the appropriateness of heavy fines, loss of license, even criminal penalties, for employers who employ non-visa offenders.
Many U.S. citizens, especially those out of work, gnash their teeth about foreign workers working here for "slave wages". They maintain that employers should pay U.S. workers a "fair" wage instead. (usually $5-$10 more than is currently being paid) I don't think that's accurate. I've found that the specifics of a particular job matter much more than pay rate. There're a whole bunch of jobs that U.S. workers aren't willing to do. They may do them when they're broke, and need any job they can get. But as soon as they get a bit of cash in their pockets, they start performing less, and need to take more "sick" days, or tend to their ill mother/father/aunt, sister, etc.
Economics trumps legality. The solution(s) to our current immigration SNAFU need to address the economic realities first. We do ourselves, as citizens, grave injury, if we just try to address immigration like AZ is doing, by punitive means.

Tars
05-13-2010, 07:49 AM
And 20 million illegal immigrants from Mexico, with half a million more sneaking into the US each year

Wow, 20 million! That's a lot! Er....where did you get that number?
Seems a bit on the hysterical side to me. If one Googles "illegal immigration statistics", a better answer emerges. Here's another perspective (https://www.statemaster.com/graph/peo_est_num_of_ill_imm-people-estimated-number-illegal-immigrants). Best Answer: No one knows. 500 thousand more each year....hmm..I just don't believe that. The foreign workers I know tell me that, because of the economic situation here, fewer of them are coming here, and more of them are going back home sooner. And I trust their opinions more than Glenn Beck's or Limbaugh's.


it's an economic and social disaster.

No NO, it's a global disaster! There are so many Mexicans sneaking into the U.S., that it's giving the Earth a lopsided spin!

Get a grip folks.


<object width="640" height="385">


<embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/V0THgOCgi-U&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></object>

someguy
05-13-2010, 08:00 AM
It's always a worthy topic of discussion to critically examine the powers and privileges of law enforcement entities. The current questions, offered by AZ, include: should a law enforcement officer have the legal right to detain anyone, most especially people of color, on nothing more than a hunch, without probable cause?


Where do you see this language in the actual law? I have read the bill several times and it clearly states that probable cause is necessary, that the color of skin cannot be the sole reason that a person is stopped, and that all laws relating to civil rights must be followed.

Tars
05-13-2010, 03:40 PM
The constitutional question which is causing the brouhaha refers I believe, to the term "reasonable suspicion that the person is alien", as cause to stop anyone, anytime, anywhere. I don't see the criteria specified in the bill that defines what must occur for "reasonable suspicion" to exist. That's problematic if one is concerned about a citizen's right to go about their business unhindered, unless probable cause can be proven. At least, the status quo requires that the law enforcement person must have some pre-existing probable cause.

{Their caps, not mine}


S.B. 1070 Sec. 2. Part B.

B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

1 1. DETERMINING ELIGIBILITY FOR ANY PUBLIC BENEFIT, SERVICE OR LICENSE
2 PROVIDED BY ANY FEDERAL, STATE, LOCAL OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
3 STATE.
4 2. VERIFYING ANY CLAIM OF RESIDENCE OR DOMICILE IF DETERMINATION OF
5 RESIDENCE OR DOMICILE IS REQUIRED UNDER THE LAWS OF THIS STATE OR A JUDICIAL
6 ORDER ISSUED PURSUANT TO A CIVIL OR CRIMINAL PROCEEDING IN THIS STATE.
7 3. CONFIRMING THE IDENTITY OF ANY PERSON WHO IS DETAINED.
8 4. IF THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN, DETERMINING WHETHER THE PERSON IS IN
9 COMPLIANCE WITH THE FEDERAL REGISTRATION LAWS PRESCRIBED BY TITLE II, CHAPTER
10 7 OF THE FEDERAL IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY ACT.This part also bothers me:


Sec. 2 Part F:

40 F. EXCEPT AS PROVIDED IN FEDERAL LAW, OFFICIALS OR AGENCIES OF THIS
41 STATE AND COUNTIES, CITIES, TOWNS AND OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISIONS OF THIS
42 STATE MAY NOT BE PROHIBITED OR IN ANY WAY BE RESTRICTED FROM SENDING,
43 RECEIVING OR MAINTAINING INFORMATION RELATING TO THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF
44 ANY INDIVIDUAL OR EXCHANGING THAT INFORMATION WITH ANY OTHER FEDERAL, STATE
45 OR LOCAL GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY FOR THE FOLLOWING OFFICIAL PURPOSES:IT reads to me that, once a police officer has stopped me for no other reason than "reasonable suspicion", they can go on a fishing expedition to find out anything on me. Meanwhile, I'm detained by the police, and unable to go about my lawful business, which may be of a highly time-dependent nature, if nothing else. The bill specifies that a person may sue the law enforcement agency to recover costs. But that process requires a big investment of time and money by me. That seems unreasonable as well. I want the police to "protect and serve", not detain and harass.

someguy
05-13-2010, 04:05 PM
The constitutional question which is causing the brouhaha refers I believe, to the term "reasonable suspicion that the person is alien", as cause to stop anyone, anytime, anywhere.

This part also bothers me:

IT reads to me that, once a police officer has stopped me for no other reason than "reasonable suspicion", they can go on a fishing expedition to find out anything on me. Meanwhile, I'm detained by the police, and unable to go about my lawful business, which may be of a highly time-dependent nature, if nothing else. The bill specifies that a person may sue the law enforcement agency to recover costs. But that process requires a big investment of time and money by me. That seems unreasonable as well. I want the police to "protect and serve", not detain and harass.

Do you see the first words of the section? "FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW
ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE" The law clearly states that the officer needs to make a lawful contact prior to questioning the person they have stopped as to whether or not they are a citizen. That does not mean that the officer can stop anyone, anytime, anywhere, just because they suspect a person might be an illegal alien. It means that the officers must have the person already stopped for some other violation of the law before asking for proof of citizenship.

Tars
05-13-2010, 06:11 PM
Do you see the first words of the section? "FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW
ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE" The law clearly states that the officer needs to make a lawful contact prior to questioning the person they have stopped as to whether or not they are a citizen.

Yes, I see that that was added to the bill. Still, "reasonable suspicion", according to the current version of the bill, is not defined, but is applicable by law enforcement individuals. So, according to the bill "lawful contact" requires nothing more than "reasonable suspicion".

Since it's not defined, "reasonable" suspicion can be defined by the cop. EX: "He looked Mesican", "She had California plates. Everyone knows California has been overrun by Mesicans", or maybe "Mesicans are no good criminals; everyone knows lots of 'em smoke marijuana".

Hyperbole? Maybe. The large majority of police I've met have been professional and polite. But I've suffered some real idiots too. No one should have to find themselves detained and having to explain their business, and/or provide personal paperwork beyond a driver's license or I.D. for no probable cause.

The good news is that the stupid law is being challenged by disparate groups, including members of the AZ senate. This lame law, as written, will never stand.

It does provide one useful product. It has stimulated nationwide discussion about privacy rights; the importance of which it is helpful to remind citizens from time to time.

someguy
05-13-2010, 06:20 PM
Yes, I see that that was added to the bill. Still, "reasonable suspicion", according to the current version of the bill, is not defined, but is applicable by law enforcement individuals. So, according to the bill "lawful contact" requires nothing more than "reasonable suspicion".

Since it's not defined, "reasonable" suspicion can be defined by the cop. EX: "He looked Mesican", "She had California plates. Everyone knows California has been overrun by Mesicans", or maybe "Mesicans are no good criminals; everyone knows lots of 'em smoke marijuana".

Hyperbole? Maybe. The large majority of police I've met have been professional and polite. But I've suffered some real idiots too. No one should have to find themselves detained and having to explain their business, and/or provide personal paperwork beyond a driver's license or I.D. for no probable cause.

The good news is that the stupid law is being challenged by disparate groups, including members of the AZ senate. This lame law, as written, will never stand.

It does provide one useful product. It has stimulated nationwide discussion about privacy rights; the importance of which it is helpful to remind citizens from time to time.

No. Sorry but your wrong again. If you look at the next part of section 2 of the bill (part C) it clearly states that reasonable suspicion cannot be based on race, language or ethnic features.

"1373(c). A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR ARIZONA CONSTITUTION. A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:

1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.
2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE.
3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL
40 IDENTIFICATION."

So there is no way a cop could ever stop someone in the situations you describe.

Tars
05-14-2010, 06:34 AM
No. Sorry but your wrong again.

Au contraire, you're wrong. Explain the implication for "reasonable suspicion" in the bill. What are the factors influencing a cop to establish "reasonable suspicion"? Answer: there aren't any. Being brown (or any other nonsense factor), until "reasonable suspicion" is either removed or defined, can be a included as a factor in stopping lawful drivers, no other excuse is needed.

Have a nice day. But even if you're a lifelong U.S. citizen if your nice day involves driving through AZ, have your passport or birth certificate in addition to your license. An AZ cop may have suspicion that you're there illegally.

LenInSebastopol
05-14-2010, 07:01 AM
So based on your wide eyed, characteristic take on the IMPLICATIONS of reasonable suspicions we then throw out the baby with the bath water?Supreme Court brains take 40 pages and months to make rulings on such and you wish to resolve it here? That is not reasonable, but if we did, what are the "implications" of that?
The language of the laws are such that each case may fit into it based on "reasonable people utilizing a ordinary judgment" all based on DUE PROCESS from the 5th Amendment. Do you wish all that boiled down to bumper sticker size? I don't have time.


Au contraire, you're wrong. Explain the implication for "reasonable suspicion" in the bill. What are the factors influencing a cop to establish "reasonable suspicion"? Answer: there aren't any. Being brown (or any other nonsense factor), until "reasonable suspicion" is either removed or defined, can be a included as a factor in stopping lawful drivers, no other excuse is needed.Have a nice day. But even if you're a lifelong U.S. citizen if your nice day involves driving through AZ, have your passport or birth certificate in addition to your license. An AZ cop may have suspicion that you're there illegally.

Dark Shadows
05-31-2010, 05:52 AM
I understand about separation of Church and State. However, are you not part of a Judeo/Christian nation? If the answer is yes, then please remember your own Book, Mathew, Chapter 25:

Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
<DT> <DD>'For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' </DD>
<DD>Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? </DD>
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
<DT> <DT>When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' <DT> <DT>And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' </DT>
I am simply quoting your own Book.


As has been pointed out, we already have more legal immigrants than most of the rest of the countries in the world, combined.

And 20 million illegal immigrants from Mexico, with half a million more sneaking into the US each year is not a "very short term" problem, it's an economic and social disaster.

LenInSebastopol
06-01-2010, 10:08 AM
I love people quoting The Book. Thank you.
However I do not see where it says a gov't should do this. When spoken their gov't did not do it. Rome believed in welfare only for Romans and only starting about 50 years after the below was spoken, when Rome needed to become an Empire due to it's growing gov't and mountain of debt, since gov't at that time was growing larger and larger since they were "giving & promising" more things to their citizens. But when spoken it was directed to individuals to do so, not gov't sponsorship of those in the country, and certainly not to those defiling the written law. I am surprised you know the words but not the context! But thanks again since every little bit helps.


I understand about separation of Church and State. However, are you not part of a Judeo/Christian nation? If the answer is yes, then please remember your own Book, Mathew, Chapter 25:
Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
<dt> </dt><dd>'For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' </dd>
<dd>Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? </dd>
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
<dt> </dt><dt>When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' </dt><dt> </dt><dt>And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'
</dt>I am simply quoting your own Book.