Save downtown Sebastopol

[peace warrior]

SEBASTOPOL RESIDENTS-did you read they are going to build another CVS at the site of Pellini Chevrolet..Thats what we need another drugs n liquor store downtown-wouldn't a Trader Joes or an Orchard Supply be a better fit for downtown..In the Detroit area it seems there is a CVS every 5 miles, do we want to do that here..call/write the city council

[Fudo]

Agreed 100%. Love the Trader Joes idea.

[LenInSebastopol]

I recall reading years ago that the best town mix is what's in a ghetto!
Local stores, owned by local folks, serving their own community with a mix that serves everybody. Downtown lost that long ago thanks to certain powers, money, and our city council.....we get what we deserve....instead of high priced boutiques, ethnic restaurants/coffee bars & art stores.....nothing for regular folks to live a regular life, at least not located down town. Could it be a money thing, don't cha' think?

[Bird Watcher]

Yes, it's about money, but I can tell you that the City Council has very little say in what businesses establish themselves in the storefronts of Main St., Sebastopol. It's about the economy, honey: supply and demand--good ol' capitalism.

Many years ago, the majority of our 50,000 West County citizens began patronizing the Santa Rosa malls/chains for their basic goods. Carlson's dept. store went first. More recently, Sebastopol Shoes couldn't make an ultimate go of it. I'm certain I'm preaching to the choir here on WACCO, but the fact remains that most people vote with their dollars out of town.

Yes, we'd love to see more essential businesses come here, but they (Trader Joes, Orchard Supply) won't establish in an area with less than a certain density. We're lucky to still have our locally owned grocery and hardware stores. Patronize them!

Blame the people and their pocketbooks, not the government.

[LenInSebastopol]

You got me right on that. I was only dreaming a political solution to the issue. I don't know if there is a great demand for so many fine arts stores and craft folks in one block. With our graying population I gather the demographers have figured out we need more drug stores though I don't need to see CVS build another box on the ground. So if it is about economics then we will get what goes against our personal values. Dang, too early in the morning to get down!
The hardware store is a dream come true, but I can't recall the name of the stationary store.

[Bird Watcher]

What I haven't heard yet is whether they're shutting and moving the Longs/CVS at the top of the hill (Redwood Marketplace), or do they really expect to have two CVS stores in Sebastopol? And if it's a transfer, then we've still got a big ol' vacancy... :-(

[n4rky]

Many years ago, the majority of our 50,000 West County citizens began patronizing the Santa Rosa malls/chains for their basic goods. Carlson's dept. store went first. More recently, Sebastopol Shoes couldn't make an ultimate go of it. I'm certain I'm preaching to the choir here on WACCO, but the fact remains that most people vote with their dollars out of town.

I think this reaches the heart of the problem. But as I've said before, and as anyone who has worked for tips or at a low-wage job can attest, we have an economic system in which the wealthy don't want to pay anything for anything and expect a discount when they do. They accumulate wealth by undervaluing others, which means we have little choice but to patronize the big box stores that undermine local retailers.

It's a vicious cycle and it is inherent to capitalism. We need to find a way to replace it with a virtuous cycle.

Unfortunately, I'm not seeing an effort amongst the GoLocal crowd to address this.

[Geni Houston]

Actually, they intend on moving the CVS to the new location, plus adding 7000 sq ft retail separate, along Abbott, but in same location. they are very anxious to work with the community.

I, too, would love to have a Trader Joe's - several years ago, when another location was up for "whatever" there was contact with TJ and I believe they determined that there was not a market for them here. I would be suprised, but pleased, if GoLocal got behind a franchise such as TJ - maybe we could work to get them into Redwood Market place as there would be much more parking there.

[jbox]

I think this reaches the heart of the problem. But as I've said before, and as anyone who has worked for tips or at a low-wage job can attest, we have an economic system in which the wealthy don't want to pay anything for anything and expect a discount when they do. They accumulate wealth by undervaluing others, which means we have little choice but to patronize the big box stores that undermine local retailers.

It's a vicious cycle and it is inherent to capitalism. We need to find a way to replace it with a virtuous cycle.

Unfortunately, I'm not seeing an effort amongst the GoLocal crowd to address this.

Well, we could try communisn, presumably with you, N4rky, as the virtuous and benevolent dictator. Would that suit you? Unfortunately, communism has never really been a successful economic or social system, probably because it runs counter to human nature. With communism the people pretend to work and the system pretends to pay them. The unfortunate essence of the capitalist system is that, like democracy, it's a horrible system, but it is better than any of the alternatives for an extensive and complicated society.

[onthepath]

i have lived here two years and would happily spend my money locally, but truthfully, the goods and services aren't very good. or competitive. overpriced and mediocre restaurants, expensive and limited clothing choices- the sebastopol shoe store was really expensive- i notice that the very good restaurants in graton are well attended. get better businesses.
simple.




I think this reaches the heart of the problem. But as I've said before, and as anyone who has worked for tips or at a low-wage job can attest, we have an economic system in which the wealthy don't want to pay anything for anything and expect a discount when they do. They accumulate wealth by undervaluing others, which means we have little choice but to patronize the big box stores that undermine local retailers.

It's a vicious cycle and it is inherent to capitalism. We need to find a way to replace it with a virtuous cycle.

Unfortunately, I'm not seeing an effort amongst the GoLocal crowd to address this.

[n4rky]

Well, we could try communisn, presumably with you, N4rky, as the virtuous and benevolent dictator. Would that suit you? Unfortunately, communism has never really been a successful economic or social system, probably because it runs counter to human nature. With communism the people pretend to work and the system pretends to pay them. The unfortunate essence of the capitalist system is that, like democracy, it's a horrible system, but it is better than any of the alternatives for an extensive and complicated society.

This will be the last I'm going to post on this. Jbox, with comments like these, you may eventually find that no one even acknowledges that you have posted anything. I'm blocking you, and I'm guessing others will too if you carry on this way.

The difficulty with any violent revolution, such as occurred in Russia and in China, is that it replaces one set of thugs with another. The systems in countries labeled "communist" were in fact a very long ways from being communist because Karl Marx's fundamental error was believing that an intermediate stage of socialism could create an egalitarian society.

In fact, it created a system which fundamentally differs very little from what we have today. Police state? Check. A privileged elite? Check. Low production? We're importing everything, so check. Low pay? See Wal-mart: check. Spreading poverty? Check.

But people like you compare the apparent prosperity (and profligate waste) of U.S. society to that of so-called "communist" countries and conclude that capitalism is superior. When you do so, you compare countries at very different stages of development. So of course, the Soviet Union appeared poor; the condition of serfs was a major factor leading to the revolution. And of course Ronald Reagan was able to run an already bankrupt state into the ground by escalating a nuclear arms race.

With a disappearing middle class, and only agricultural production to speak of, we are rapidly re-creating the conditions that preceded the Russian Revolution. Or perhaps you haven't seen Detroit lately or driven through the now largely vacant suburban sprawl in the Central Valley. I hope that satisfies you.

[lynn]

..."we have an economic system in which the wealthy don't want to pay anything for anything and expect a discount when they do."...

Huh?...I see the wealthy paying for gobs of stuff...My goodness look at those yachts, shoes, jewels and mansions!...And the art!!

What did that Giacometti sculpture and Picasso painting recently go for?...

104.3 million for the sculpture...106.5 million for the painting...

That's some darn serious mullah!!!

It's the 'lower classes' I've seen shopping at Wal-Mart...They luuuuv China-Mart!!...It's cheap - they can afford it!!...

Personally, I find some pretty good deals at the dollar store...:)...But, please people...Quit trashing the aisles...pick up after yourselves!....
----------

..."I'm blocking you, and I'm guessing others will too if you carry on this way."...

Another, huh?...I don't see any 'carrying on'...just writing his pov. like others are...

[Barry]

...Karl Marx's fundamental error was believing that an intermediate stage of socialism could create an egalitarian society....
Incorrect (if I remember my college Marxist studies). Marx envisioned Communism as a natural evolution to Capitalism. And he may yet be right if the tea-partyers are right (as well as the European social democracies).

It was Lenin who stipulated (and implemented) communism could skip the capitalism phase.

But back to the thread topic: It should be clear to everybody that the city government does not choose which business are allowed to operate on certain parcels. So long as the type of use is conforming to the zoning its a go. As stated, it's us shoppers who determine which stores are successful in town.

One back door way of keeping big boxes out is to regulate a maximum square footage, however.

In this case, its pretty much a wash, since its just relocation from within the city limits.

One nice fallout should CVS relocate to the Peliini building, is that you could then walk down to Peace in Medicine to get whatever additional drugs you need, thus handling all your medical requirements without additional driving...:wink:

I must say I much preferred that store when it was Longs.

[justme]

This dude insults, attacks and then blocks anybody who disagrees with him.....


This will be the last I'm going to post on this. Jbox, with comments like these, you may eventually find that no one even acknowledges that you have posted anything. I'm blocking you, and I'm guessing others will too if you carry on this way.

The difficulty with any violent revolution, such as occurred in Russia and in China, is that it replaces one set of thugs with another. The systems in countries labeled "communist" were in fact a very long ways from being communist because Karl Marx's fundamental error was believing that an intermediate stage of socialism could create an egalitarian society.

In fact, it created a system which fundamentally differs very little from what we have today. Police state? Check. A privileged elite? Check. Low production? We're importing everything, so check. Low pay? See Wal-mart: check. Spreading poverty? Check.

But people like you compare the apparent prosperity (and profligate waste) of U.S. society to that of so-called "communist" countries and conclude that capitalism is superior. When you do so, you compare countries at very different stages of development. So of course, the Soviet Union appeared poor; the condition of serfs was a major factor leading to the revolution. And of course Ronald Reagan was able to run an already bankrupt state into the ground by escalating a nuclear arms race.

With a disappearing middle class, and only agricultural production to speak of, we are rapidly re-creating the conditions that preceded the Russian Revolution. Or perhaps you haven't seen Detroit lately or driven through the now largely vacant suburban sprawl in the Central Valley. I hope that satisfies you.

[Barry]

Incorrect (if I remember my college Marxist studies). Marx envisioned Communism as a natural evolution to Capitalism. ...Sorry, I mis-spoke! I meant:

Marx envisioned Communism as a natural evolution from Capitalism. That is to say, capitalism would come and do it's thing, among which was to accumulate capital (money), but it would breakdown thanks to its internal contradictions.

But again, let's try to return to the subject of the thread, CVS moving downtown vs. some other use.

[justme]

How about moving the farmer's market and related venues there and free up the plaza on those days? Keep the old Pellini building intact and you can have a market, etc year around.....The old service area could be used for booths, etc in inclement weather.... Keep a historic building and make use of it too...

[Barry]

How about moving the farmer's market and related venues there and free up the plaza on those days? Keep the old Pellini building intact and you can have a market, etc year around.....The old service area could be used for booths, etc in inclement weather.... Keep a historic building and make use of it too...
And who pays the rent/mortgage?

BTW, the current plan is for the farmer's market to move to The Barlow project (Hwy 12 and Morris street) once they re-develop the parking lot between the existing Barlow building and Guayaki.

[justme]

I wasn't aware of the Barlow project. Who is paying for rent/mortgage/ development of the Barlow site? I was just suggesting a more local venue for the Pellini site. It has a large parking area, building intact for inclement weather and would need moderate renovation. Don't vendors pay space rent and maybe a percentage of sales? Also, with the location and building, many other venues could use the site too....


And who pays the rent/mortgage?

BTW, the current plan is for the farmer's market to move to The Barlow project (Hwy 12 and Morris street) once they re-develop the parking lot between the existing Barlow building and Guayaki.

[Barry]

The farm market would use the new parking lot which should be pretty nice and more spacious than the plaza. I don't know what the financial arrangement would be, but since it would only be using the parking lot, and it would help the (new) business in the rest of the project, I imagine any rent would be minimal.

The market vendors to pay a small fee, which mostly funds the market manager's position as I understand it.

I suppose the Pellini park area (vs the building) would be viable in the meantime, though I'm sure it would bring up insurance and other concerns. But to just use the parking lot and not the building would not offer any advantage over the current sweet, if cramped, venue.


I wasn't aware of the Barlow project. Who is paying for rent/mortgage/ development of the Barlow site? I was just suggesting a more local venue for the Pellini site. It has a large parking area, building intact for inclement weather and would need moderate renovation. Don't vendors pay space rent and maybe a percentage of sales? Also, with the location and building, many other venues could use the site too....