POLICE STATE - Kids Kicked Off School Campus For Wearing Clothes With American Flags

[someguy]

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Does anyone else think this is the craziest thing you've ever heard?

[LenInSebastopol]

No. In a climate that's been created by the media to sell soap & juice our glands, it's to be expected.
Also in the "identity movement" across what was once considered a "melting pot" it really helps to fractionalize folks to marshal power for one's own camp. This helps in identifying and keeping 'them' and 'us' fighting. In a culture of hate and sickness this is normal. That's all I'm saying.

[someguy]

No. In a climate that's been created by the media to sell soap & juice our glands, it's to be expected.
Also in the "identity movement" across what was once considered a "melting pot" it really helps to fractionalize folks to marshal power for one's own camp. This helps in identifying and keeping 'them' and 'us' fighting. In a culture of hate and sickness this is normal. That's all I'm saying.
I agree. Although its still kind of shocking for me to actually see it!

[Tecumseh]

WTF??? This IS America (last I checked}, the country that I and other veterans
offered up our lives to protect and now kids can't wear a t-shirt with American flags on them to school because it's a Mexican day of celebration? THIS IS THE USA. We are inclusive, but we're AMERICANS and we should have the right to fly our flag or wear a t-shirt with our flag on it ANY time we choose!

The American flag is not a symbol of white racism and will never be that to me or millions of others who live here. Americans are people of color as well, or like myself, of native Indian descent.

Yep, it's crazy making times.....

"Does anyone else think this is the craziest thing you've ever heard?"

["Mad" Miles]

I'm a state credentialed teacher, English and Social Science. My first year teaching after getting my credential (I did a lot of teaching even before that) I had to substitute locally because I didn't get a regular teaching job.

At the end of that year, '04-'05, I was a longterm sub at SRHS and was there for Cinco de Mayo. Some anglo/white/caucasian students, a few, maybe five to eight, used that day as an opportunity to wear our national colors, wave an American (U.S.) flag and loudly sing the national anthem during lunch in the quad. They didn't do it solely to express their patriotism, they did it in an aggressive, in-your-face, shit disturbing manner because they were offended by Mexican-American students and their friends expressing their pride and one part of their dual nationalism. The "anglos" were looking for a fight, and they would have gotten one if teachers and administrators hadn't intervened.

I am a strong supporter of the First Amendment. Freedom of Speech is a paramount right in my book. Technically that means I can run up to you, put my face in yours, and call you every nasty name I can think of loudly and forcefully. But if I did I would have no right to claim outrage and surprise if your response was to shove some of my teeth down my throat.

Administrators are required by law to maintain what is called a "safe learning environment" on campus. Perhaps sending students home who were wearing clothing that was provocative, given the date and occasion, was a violation of those students civil right to free expression.

But don't kid yourself, I doubt they wear those shirts many other days of the year. They did it on 5/5 because they were offended by expressions of nationality not their own. On top of that the whole illegal immigration issue is a hot button nowadays (when hasn't it been?).

By the way, two out of the five never left campus. (I know this from yesterday's PD article. Couldn't open the video, see my last paragraph below.)

And the Fourth of July isn't a good example. It falls during summer vacation, so as far as public High School campus conduct is concerned, it's a moot point.

But suppose the Fourth took place during the school year? What would be your policy on students wearing clothing expressing criticism of our nation? Or Anti-Militarist students expressing their distaste for war on or near Memorial Day?

The difference is that Cinco de Mayo is not a state or national holiday. Maybe it should be to solve the problem?

If booze drinkers ran things the key holidays would be: 12/24, 12/31, 3/17, 5/5, 7/4 and 10/31! Oh and the Superbowl and Nascar...

Which is more important on campus, freedom of expression? Or keeping the peace?


By the way, Someguy, all of your posts with videos are innacessable to me. I get the blank screen with the little red X in the box in the upper left hand corner. Must be an IE issue. I'm not interested in changing browsers, so including the URL, embedded in text or standing alone, should solve the problem. Ta.

[someguy]

YouTube - POLICE STATE - Kids Kicked Off School Campus For Wearing Clothes With American Flags (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oeS_ILXB8w&playnext_from=TL&videos=ZsWAL8GCZUk)

I understand that you didnt see the video, but these kids did not get in anyones face, or raise their voice, or even express their displeasure with cinco de mayo in anyway. They simply wore american flag shirts and other clothing. That is all. I dont know how anyone could find that offensive, or threatening at all.

Schools have every right to maintain a safe learning environment. We agree on that. And on that note, if any student threatens another student, or wear clothing that degrades another student for any reason, that behavior should be not be tolerated. Schools have policies regarding what clothing can and can not be worn during school time. I would venture to say that American flags are not on the banned clothing list, and so I don't understand what the problem was here.

"But suppose the Fourth took place during the school year? What would be your policy on students wearing clothing expressing criticism of our nation? Or Anti-Militarist students expressing their distaste for war on or near Memorial Day?"

My answer to those questions are that I personally would welcome those students who express their opinions in a respectful nonthreatening manner. As a young person who has experience in our current school system, I find it very repressive and very discouraging towards critical thinking and freedom of expression. Our faculties are just to concerned with never allowing anyone to be offended, and this tactic just has the opposite effect. Students become very frustrated that they arent allowed to express themselves as they feel, and the unintended consequences are that everyone is offended by not being allowed the freedoms that are god granted in this country. I can't tell you how many kids in my school thought of the faculty as Nazis. No joke. They are so oppressive and unreasonable and kids see right through it.

My thoughts on freedom of speech vs. safety are always on the side of freedom. Case closed.

[Braggi]

When I was in high school it was a crime, IIRC, to wear clothes made of US flags. The only people who would do such a thing were those directly opposed to US involvement in foreign wars, especially Viet Nam. They were typically arrested, beaten, sprayed with chemical mace, and released in a dark alley somewhere by local cops.

It was those hippies and protestors that went to court and got those laws thrown out so the new "patriots" can cut up flags and make clothes out of them.

For what it's worth.

-Jeff

PS. If you look into the history of the flag you'll learn that all such uses, including advertising, were anathema to our grandparents generation and before. What we do with the flag today is pretty disgusting.

[someguy]

When I was in high school it was a crime, IIRC, to wear clothes made of US flags. The only people who would do such a thing were those directly opposed to US involvement in foreign wars, especially Viet Nam. They were typically arrested, beaten, sprayed with chemical mace, and released in a dark alley somewhere by local cops.

It was those hippies and protestors that went to court and got those laws thrown out so the new "patriots" can cut up flags and make clothes out of them.

For what it's worth.

-Jeff

PS. If you look into the history of the flag you'll learn that all such uses, including advertising, were anathema to our grandparents generation and before. What we do with the flag today is pretty disgusting.

That might be one thing to cut up the American Flag..... Although personally I dont find anything wrong with it.

Regardless, these kids didnt cut up a flag to wear it as clothing... They wore shirts and pants with flags on them, not made of them. Most of our presidents at one time or another have worn american flags on their bodies, either as pins, or shirts, etc.... I dont find anything wrong with this either.

Just to set the record straight.

["Mad" Miles]

I just wasted twenty plus minutes looking on the PD website for the article from two days ago. After viewing the video. I googled the article, couldn't find it. But I recall reading in it that after the Latino students marched off campus at lunch, in protest of the "diss" that they perceived from the five students sporting Stars & Stripes clothing, they were met by those and other students flipping them off. The kid being interviewed admitted to his group returning the favor.

Next day fallout: The Principal apologized for his underling sending the patriots home. Local school officials condemned the move by the Assistant Principal (he can kiss his career goodbye) and two cops instead of the usual one are patrolling the campus at the Principal's request. And of course the whole controversy is all over the right-wing news and blogosphere.

There's a thread from a couple of years ago about various uses of the American (U.S.) flag and I posted a summary of the flag code (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccotalk/25657-fly-flag-campaign.html). (Mine is post #30) I forgot to mention there that wearing it or images symbolizing it as articles of clothing are total violations of the code. Completely disrespectful. Many of the uses and traditions that became de riguer in the fifties on, didn't start until after the beginning of WWII.

In the mean time 5,000 plus gallons of sweet light crude gush up from the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico, every day, for the last two weeks, with no soon end in sight. (I hope I'm wrong on that one!) We're talking oceanic ecocide here. So I suggest putting the matter of sixteen year olds getting in each others faces over political symbols in perspective.

[someguy]

There's a thread from a couple of years ago about various uses of the American (U.S.) flag and I posted a summary of the flag code (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccotalk/25657-fly-flag-campaign.html). (Mine is post #30) I forgot to mention there that wearing it or images symbolizing it as articles of clothing are total violations of the code. Completely disrespectful. Many of the uses and traditions that became de riguer in the fifties on, didn't start until after the beginning of WWII.



So are you saying that it is completely disrespectful to wear flags on your clothing in all circumstances?

If so, that code may need some updating as many patriotic people in this country including firefighters, police officers, military, politicians, have been known on occasion to wear american flags embroidered on shirts, hats, etc...

Do you personally find this to be offensive Miles?

Do you personally feel that people should be condemned for wearing an american flag symbol?

Personally, I think its totally okay to wear clothing with American flags depicted on them. I do not find it offensive in any way. In fact, I would find it to be a sign of respect and admiration for our country in most circumstances, and I don't find that to be such a bad thing.

Im just clueless as to where your criticism is coming from. Please explain why you find this offensive if so.

Thanks.

["Mad" Miles]

I'm not personally offended by flags on clothing. The Flag Code says it's disrespectful. Not flag patches on uniforms, of course. Yet in fact wearing flags on uniforms and images and patterns from it on clothing are relatively new things.

But times and styles change. Manners degrade. When I teach I insist my students remove their hats indoors as a sign of respect for all. In a world where many men, and some women go around with a bill cap welded to their skulls, I know that makes me an old fogey out of step with the times.

What I do find offensive about flag displays is when they're done to express jingoism and overwheening pride of country in the face of facts and history. But that's me. And it's a much bigger discussion than I wish to engage in at this time and in this place.

You seem to love to point out ethical and logical contradictions and hypocrisy. I was just trying to join in the fun!

My microwaved beef tamales with salsa verde are ready. Comida tipica Americano. No flag waving here.

[someguy]

What I do find offensive about flag displays is when they're done to express jingoism and overwheening pride of country in the face of facts and history. But that's me. And it's a much bigger discussion than I wish to engage in at this time and in this place.



Yeah I was pretty disgusted with the flag waving and flag magnets that littered cars, trucks and SUV's all over this country after we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq... I get what your saying and I feel the same. Sometimes I feel that this country isn't something to write home about... At the same time I know that we have a great constitution which made our country amazing and our people free (which is not necessarily anymore), which I find myself very proud of.

So I have a contradictory feeling about my country. One that is very hard to reconcile. With that said, the constitution allows for free speech, a principal I find so great, so powerful and so necessary for our democratic republic to survive, that even when I disagree with what is being said or expressed, I always want to protect that speech/expression. This type of thinking I believe to be critical for a free nation to thrive. So that is why I am against these kids being suspended for wearing American Flags on Cinco De Mayo. Its their expression, their right to express it, just as much as its everyones right to celebrate Cinco De Mayo or whatever controversial holiday/religion/ideology/nation/whatever.

[Braggi]

... With that said, the constitution allows for free speech, a principal I find so great, so powerful and so necessary for our democratic republic to survive, that even when I disagree with what is being said or expressed, I always want to protect that speech/expression. ...

I think we all agree on this point. I'm disturbed the teachers and principal made such a big deal about it, but I have a feeling it was becoming a situation akin to wearing gang colors to school and the teachers felt the tension rising to a potential breaking point.

I can't say what I would have done were I a teacher at that school that day, but I know I would have been uncomfortable.

-Jeff

PS. Miles, I appreciate your sharing of "the flag code" once again. It's good to review the values of our ancestors. There's wisdom there, even if it's dated wisdom. It's good to know where we came from.

[LenInSebastopol]

This old man recalls the 1968 Chicago Convention with Abbie Hoffman showing up in the court that prosecuted them and he was wearing an American flag shirt.......the media blew up with photos and I thought right-wingers were going to take to the streets and burn down the court house! It was a major thing then, but would catch no one's eye today and now sold out of stores that have phony wood in front of them inside a mall.
Then around the same time some "celebrity" wore a flag patch on their rump. Same riotous response.


So are you saying that it is completely disrespectful to wear flags on your clothing in all circumstances?
If so, that code may need some updating as many patriotic people in this country including firefighters, police officers, military, politicians, have been known on occasion to wear american flags embroidered on shirts, hats, etc...

Do you personally find this to be offensive Miles?

Do you personally feel that people should be condemned for wearing an american flag symbol?

Personally, I think its totally okay to wear clothing with American flags depicted on them. I do not find it offensive in any way. In fact, I would find it to be a sign of respect and admiration for our country in most circumstances, and I don't find that to be such a bad thing.
Im just clueless as to where your criticism is coming from. Please explain why you find this offensive if so. Thanks.

[Tecumseh]

My wife recently retired from the Marin county school district with over 25 years of service and is of native American Indian, Irish and Mexican descent. She worked at both high school and middle school levels and was a recipient of the Golden Bell award.

She's seen school dress codes come and go, has had to break up innumerable fights on campus and on one occasion she found a semi-automatic weapon brought to a school dance. I think it's reasonable to say that she is familiar with campus policies and safety, and that I have been made somewhat familiar with them as well

In my opinion, part of our children's education is to teach them, both at home and in schools, to be open-minded, tolerant, capable of emotional restraint, physical self control,and effective communication skills. How will they learn if we don't allow varying self expression and acceptable ways of responding? They don't necessarily learn by being put in a bubble of political correctness.

As far as having no right to claim outrage or surprise if someone were to shove your teeth down your throat if you got up in their face, you'd have the right to charge them with assault and battery so they can get fined, possibly serve some jail time and maybe get a court ordered anger management class for the remedial instruction on acceptable social behaviour that they apparently need.

On 5 May I was riding my bicycle and was yelled at by a 20 something white boy, trying to impress his girlfriend seated next to him no doubt. He mistook me for being Mexican rather than American Indian. I could've yelled back, thrown a rock at him, rode over and jerked his stupid ass out of his bright red new pick'm up truck and taught him the meaning of some Oklahoma whoop-ass, Indian style.

Could've but I didn't......

I was taught that he's behaving out of ignorance and to ignore him. Isn't it a shame Indians just don't give away our native teachings anymore like we used to..... :stormcloud::lol2:



I'm a state credentialed teacher, English and Social Science. My first year teaching after getting my credential (I did a lot of teaching even before that) I had to substitute locally because I didn't get a regular teaching job.

At the end of that year, '04-'05, I was a longterm sub at SRHS and was there for Cinco de Mayo. Some anglo/white/caucasian students, a few, maybe five to eight, used that day as an opportunity to wear our national colors, wave an American (U.S.) flag and loudly sing the national anthem during lunch in the quad. They didn't do it solely to express their patriotism, they did it in an aggressive, in-your-face, shit disturbing manner because they were offended by Mexican-American students and their friends expressing their pride and one part of their dual nationalism. The "anglos" were looking for a fight, and they would have gotten one if teachers and administrators hadn't intervened.

I am a strong supporter of the First Amendment. Freedom of Speech is a paramount right in my book. Technically that means I can run up to you, put my face in yours, and call you every nasty name I can think of loudly and forcefully. But if I did I would have no right to claim outrage and surprise if your response was to shove some of my teeth down my throat.

Administrators are required by law to maintain what is called a "safe learning environment" on campus. Perhaps sending students home who were wearing clothing that was provocative, given the date and occasion, was a violation of those students civil right to free expression.

But don't kid yourself, I doubt they wear those shirts many other days of the year. They did it on 5/5 because they were offended by expressions of nationality not their own. On top of that the whole illegal immigration issue is a hot button nowadays (when hasn't it been?).

By the way, two out of the five never left campus. (I know this from yesterday's PD article. Couldn't open the video, see my last paragraph below.)

And the Fourth of July isn't a good example. It falls during summer vacation, so as far as public High School campus conduct is concerned, it's a moot point.

But suppose the Fourth took place during the school year? What would be your policy on students wearing clothing expressing criticism of our nation? Or Anti-Militarist students expressing their distaste for war on or near Memorial Day?

The difference is that Cinco de Mayo is not a state or national holiday. Maybe it should be to solve the problem?

If booze drinkers ran things the key holidays would be: 12/24, 12/31, 3/17, 5/5, 7/4 and 10/31! Oh and the Superbowl and Nascar...

Which is more important on campus, freedom of expression? Or keeping the peace?


By the way, Someguy, all of your posts with videos are innacessable to me. I get the blank screen with the little red X in the box in the upper left hand corner. Must be an IE issue. I'm not interested in changing browsers, so including the URL, embedded in text or standing alone, should solve the problem. Ta.

["Mad" Miles]

...So that is why I am against these kids being suspended for wearing American Flags on Cinco De Mayo. ....

Someguy,

I agree with the rest of your post that I've excerpted the above from. Just a small quibble. I don't believe the academic term for what happened is "suspension". Although what they were told to do comes close. They were told to go home and change, or reverse their clothing to conceal the US flag motifs or images. Two refused, with no consequences, three went home and got their parents to participate in the media furor. I doubt any repercussions of an administrative nature will land on them. They'll be counted present for the day. So no "suspension" was technically applied.

I'll save a discussion about the glories of the US Constitution, and any "lost" liberty that Americans (U.S.) have suffered over the last two hundred and thirty-four years. Except to say it could be argued that we have gained some, and lost some. It's an ongoing struggle.

By the by, I watched Alex Jones warning about the coming race war between Latinos and Anglos just now. Hilarious!!! Can you say rumor mongering? Hysteria? (Yes, I know it's a sexist word, but it's apropo here.) Complete demagoguery?

I lost any respect I might have had for Rev. Jones when I saw his video from Bohemian Grove, I watched it when I was organizing the 2002 Fat Cats Festival & Parade before their summer bacchanal. Concluding, from a grainy video surreptitiously shot hundreds of feet away from the action, with ambiguous results at best, that the opening "Cremation of Care" ceremony was an actual human, possibly child or petite woman, sacrifice? Carried out by mostly mid-level financial managers from the Bay Area and other rich people and their favored sychophants?

Yeah, right.

But as reported later via Mary Moore, from an email she got (not from Rev. Jones, but someone of his ilk), she and I are "robot radicals" because we won't acknowledge the existence of the underground dungeons for the sex slaves at the Grove.

Oh well, if I'm that programmed, I suppose I have no conscious knowledge of it!!

Watch out for those Globalists!!!

Alex Jones is a demagogue, pure and simple. He makes his money off of blowing things out of proportion. Entertaining, if you're into bloviating hyperbole, but not someone whose claims I would use to support a serious political analysis of what's wrong with our society. There are plenty of other commentators that I would give credence to long before I'd spend any time listening to him.

Still it's nice to find common ground with you and Leninsebastopol, on some matters. Such as flag displays and free speech. Much as we may consistently differ on many others. There may be some scintilla of hope yet!

But, as we type, the oil gushes up from the bottom of the gulf. Machete wielding mojados bent on revenge for years of racism and exploitation are the least of our worries.

Rodriquez is making a tounge in cheek send-up of the pulp Blackxploitation movies of the late sixties and early seventies. Along the line of what Tarantino has done.

What is racist is to apply restrictions to Mexican-American artists that aren't applied to others. And yes, he's being provocative. But anyone who thinks an over-the-top splatter film is a serious invitation for murderous violent political mayhem, has no understanding of movies, politics or our country.

Hey, I could be wrong? Maybe Rodriquez is the next Manson trying to provoke a race war, and I'm just a naive Left/Liberal with no sense of the pulse of our nation. Weirder things have happened. But I'll wait for the actual film before judging the results.

["Mad" Miles]

...As far as having no right to claim outrage or surprise if someone were to shove your teeth down your throat if you got up in their face, you'd have the right to charge them with assault and battery so they can get fined, possibly serve some jail time and maybe get a court ordered anger management class for the remedial instruction on acceptable social behaviour that they apparently need....

:stormcloud::lol2:

Tecumseh,

When I wrote the paragraph about teeth shoving down throat, I was aware that someone reading it might think I was saying physical violence was OK in the face of verbal and body language provocation.

If you were willing to read it again, you might see that I was saying that anyone who got up in another's face and shouted insults could not claim that they didn't expect a physically violent response. Not that the person being confronted and provoked could claim their physically violent response was justified.

Sometimes language fails me, even when I carefully edit and review.

Physical violence is unnacceptable. Especially on school grounds but everywhere in our society.

With the sole exception being the right to self defense, when faced with physical violence from another. And this is a highly complex topic. What about the threat of violence from the authorities? What is a viable threat of physical violence? etc. etc. He said, he said, she said, she said. Who went first? etc. etc. Entire schools of martial art address these issues.

I'm a theoretical, not practiced, fan of Aikido. In advocating radical political and social change, I've always used non-violent civil disobediance and/or direct action. Most often I've organized with committed pacifists.

I myself am a tactical pacifist, not a philisophical one, because I hold that in some extreme circumstances, the use of violence to defend oneself and others incapable of defending themselves, (the old, the young, etc.) is not only justified, but the morally necessary response.

Again, it's complicated and circumstances matter. When the forces of order have a monopoly on violence, violent resistence is suicide. And every bully throughout history has justified their aggression as defensive. Topics for another day.

So, please forgive my ambiguous expression. I think we agree on this matter.

Aho!

Love your nomme de keyboard by the way. This continent might have taken an whole different direction if Tecumseh had pulled off the alliance he was trying to create.

But that's the realm of the hypothetical. Military technological superiority being a major factor. Justice doesn't always prevail. In fact in military matters it's often irrelevant.

[Weiser]

I'm new to using this site so I'm having difficulty posting. If this is a rerun please forgive me.


I think that if the kids who wore the clothing with the American flags wanted to be provocative they would have worn cloths that were adorned with the French flag instead. Of course this would have required that they have a cursory knowledge of history.

I'd like to suggest that the celebration of Mexican culture be changed from May fifth to Mexican independance day. Its less provocative.

As I understand it the fifth of may is a celebration that grew out of the Chicano movement of the 1960's and commerates the peasant victory over the white European, imperialist French. The USA is an imperialist nation. ( The left speaking)

If this is a celebration of culture it would be less provocative to change the celebration to Mexican independance day. Just a thought.

banjoguy

[Braggi]

... If this is a celebration of culture it would be less provocative to change the celebration to Mexican independance day ...

I think it's a good idea, but Budweiser and Michelob and Corona make a whole Hell of a lot of money on Cinco de Mayo. You'd be up against some big guns. All the Mexican restaurants are into it and now all the schools seem to be into it, although it obviously is becoming problematic. Clearly this ain't Halloween.

The path the public schools are taking appears irreversible to me. There will be no politically correct way to get out of it. Perhaps your idea of studying Mexican Independence Day (September 16) and just reducing the emphasis on Cinco de Mayo a little year by year would work.

If they do it I think they should make it more of a day to study rather than a day to celebrate. That's where they got into trouble with May 5th. Most kids don't know what it commemorates, and that's a shame.

-Jeff