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Barry
04-21-2010, 04:34 PM
https://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/nytlogo153x23.gif (https://www.nytimes.com/)

<hr align="left" size="1"> April 19, 2010
For Earth Day, 7 New Rules to Live By

By JOHN TIERNEY (https://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/t/john_tierney/index.html?inline=nyt-per)

On the 40th anniversary of Earth Day (https://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/e/earth_day/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier), is the middle-aged green movement ready to be revived by some iconoclastic young Turqs?

No, that’s not a misspelling. The word is derived from Turquoise, which is Stewart Brand’s term for a new breed of environmentalist combining traditional green with a shade of blue, as in blue-sky open-minded thinking. A Turq, he hopes, will be an environmentalist guided by science, not nostalgia or technophobia.

Ordinarily I’d be skeptical of either the word or the concept catching on, but I believe in never ignoring any trend spotted by Mr. Brand (https://web.me.com/stewartbrand/SB_homepage/Home.html), especially on this topic. He was the one, after all, who helped inspire Earth Day by putting the first picture of the planet on the cover of his “Whole Earth Catalog” in 1968.

Now he has another book, “Whole Earth Discipline,” (https://web.me.com/stewartbrand/DISCIPLINE_footnotes/Contents.html) in which he urges greens to “question convenient fables.” In that spirit, let me offer a few suggestions gleaned from the four decades since Earth Day. Here are seven lessons for Turqs of all ages:

1. It’s the climate, stupid.The orators at the first Earth Day didn’t deliver speeches on global warming (https://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/science/topics/globalwarming/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier). That was partly because there weren’t yet good climate models predicting warming in the 21st century and partly because the orators weren’t sure civilization would survive that long anyway.

They figured that the “overpopulated” world was about to be decimated by famine, the exhaustion of fossil fuels, global shortages of vital minerals, pollution, pesticides (https://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/nutrition/pesticides/overview.html?inline=nyt-classifier), cancer (https://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/cancer/overview.html?inline=nyt-classifier) epidemics, nuclear-reactor meltdowns, and assorted technological disasters. Who had time to worry about a distant danger from a natural substance like carbon dioxide?

Well, the expected apocalypses never occurred, and it’s the unexpected problem of greenhouse gases that concerns scientists today. Greens say they’ve shifted their priorities, too, but by how much?

2. You can never not do just one thing. Environmentalists of the 1970s liked to justify their resistance to new technologies by warning that you could never do just one thing. It was a nice mantra and also quite accurate. New technologies do indeed come with unexpected side effects.

But resisting new technology produces its own unpleasant surprises. The “No Nukes” movement effectively led to more reliance on electricity generated by coal plants spewing carbon. The opposition to “industrial agriculture” led to the lower-yield farms that require more acreage, leaving less woodland to protect wildlife and absorb carbon.

3. “Let them eat organic” is not a global option.For affluent humans in industrialized countries, organic food (https://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/o/organic_food/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) is pretty much a harmless luxury. Although there’s no convincing evidence that the food is any healthier or more nutritious than other food, if that label makes you feel healthier and more virtuous, then you can justify the extra cost.

But most people in the world are not affluent, and their food budgets are limited. If they’re convinced by green marketers that they need to choose higher-priced organic produce, they and their children are liable to end up eating fewer fruits and vegetables — and sometimes nothing at all, as occurred when Zambia rejected emergency food for starving citizens because the grain had been genetically engineered.

In “Denialism,” (https://www.michaelspecter.com/denialism/) a book about the spread of unscientific beliefs, Michael Specter criticizes the “organic fetish” as a “pernicious kind of denialism” being exported to poor countries.

“Total reliance on organic farming would force African countries to devote twice as much land per crop as we do in the United States,” he writes. “An organic universe sounds delightful, but it could consign millions of people in Africa and throughout much of Asia to malnutrition (https://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/malnutrition/overview.html?inline=nyt-classifier) and death.”

4. Frankenfood, like Frankenstein, is fiction. The imagined horrors of “frankenfoods” have kept genetically engineered foods (https://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/g/genetically_modified_food/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) out of Europe and poor countries whose farmers want to export food to Europe. Americans, meanwhile, have been fearlessly growing and eating them for more than a decade — and the scare stories seem more unreal than ever.

Last week, the National Academy of Sciences reported (https://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=12804) that genetically engineered foods had helped consumers, farmers and the environment by lowering costs, reducing the use of pesticide and herbicide, and encouraging tillage techniques that reduce soil erosion and water pollution.
“I daresay the environmental movement has done more harm with its opposition to genetic engineering than with any other thing we’ve been wrong about,” Mr. Brand writes in “Whole Earth Discipline.” “We’ve starved people, hindered science, hurt the natural environment, and denied our own practitioners a crucial tool.”

5. “Green” energy hasn’t done much for greenery — or anything else. Since the first Earth Day, wind and solar energy (https://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/science/topics/solar_energy/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) have been fashionable by a variety of names: alternative, appropriate, renewable, sustainable. But today, despite decades of subsidies and mandates, it provides less than 1 percent of the electrical power in the world, and people still shun it once they discover how much it costs and how much land it requires.

6. “New Nukes” is the new “No Nukes.” In the 1980s, Gwyneth Cravens joined the greens who successfully prevented the Shoreham nuclear reactor from opening on Long Island. Then, after learning about global warming, she discovered that the reactor would have prevented the annual emission of three million tons of carbon dioxide. She wrote a book on the nuclear industry titled, “Power to Save the World.” (https://cravenspowertosavetheworld.com/)

Mr. Brand has also renounced his opposition to nuclear power and now promotes it as green energy because of its low-carbon emissions and its small footprint on the landscape. He wants to see the development of small modular reactors, and he quotes a warning from the climate scientist James Hansen (https://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/h/james_e_hansen/index.html?inline=nyt-per), “One of the greatest dangers the world faces is the possibility that a vocal minority of antinuclear activists could prevent phase-out of coal emissions.”

Some groups, like the Natural Resources Defense Council (https://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/natural_resources_defense_council/index.html?inline=nyt-org), are still resisting nuclear power, just as groups like Greenpeace (https://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/g/greenpeace/index.html?inline=nyt-org) are fighting genetically engineered crops. But if Mr. Brand is right, maybe some greens will rediscover the enthusiasm for technology expressed in his famous line at the start of “The Whole Earth Catalog:” “We are as gods and might as well get good at it.”

Technological progress, not nostalgia or asceticism, is the only reliable way for greens’ visions of “sustainability” to be sustained. Wilderness and wildlife can be preserved only if the world’s farmers have the best tools to feed everyone on the least amount of land. Solar power will be widely adopted only if there are breakthroughs that make it more efficient.

Greenhouse gases will keep accumulating unless engineers build economical sources of low-carbon energy or develop techniques for sequestering carbon. And if those advances aren’t enough to stop global warming, we’ll want new tools for directly engineering the climate. Given the seriousness of the danger, Mr. Brand supports climate-engineering research, and he has updated his famous line from four decades ago. The update makes a good concluding lesson for Turqs:

7. We are as gods and have to get good at it.

Barry
04-21-2010, 04:57 PM
Pro Nukes & Pro GMO! ?

Those are fightin' words in these parts. But here they are uttered by none other than Stuart Brandt, one the original hipsters.

What do you guys think if this? I think he has good points. Nuclear power does make me uncomfortable still, especially the waste issue. But there is a problem with everything! I posted a promising article about Thorium (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccoreader/62512-uranium-so-last-century-enter-thorium-new-green-nuke.html) a while back, but I haven't heard anything else about this exciting technology. There is an active website discussing it, (https://energyfromthorium.com/) though.

And pro-GMOs? Again, good points. Aside from letting Monsanto exploit the technology for their private gain rather than the public good, it doesn't seem like our worst fears have materialized.

Are we getting smart and mature enough to act as gods?

Hotspring 44
04-21-2010, 10:28 PM
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<table class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: medium none;" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top"> 2. You can never [I]not do just one thing.Environmentalists of the 1970s liked to justify their resistance to new technologies by warning that you could never do just one thing. It was a nice mantra and also quite accurate. New technologies do indeed come with unexpected side effects.

But resisting new technology produces its own unpleasant surprises. The “No Nukes” movement effectively led to more reliance on electricity generated by coal plants spewing carbon. The opposition to “industrial agriculture” led to the lower-yield farms that require more acreage, leaving less woodland to protect wildlife and absorb carbon.<o:p></o:p>
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I actually do agree with the idea that you could never do just one thing to solve a long list of complicated problems.

I still believe that if we would've been wise enough to have taken a different direction like the one that Jimmy Carter was trying to urge us to do we would be way better off than we are now as far as energy independence is concerned even though I admit there probably would have been more nuclear power plants constructed in the early 1970s and 1980s then there actually were.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Jimmy Carter was urging the use of solar technology in the 1970s.
If solar energy was actually funded as much as a lot of other energy production interests had been between then and now, we would be far better off and way ahead of the game in the business of actually exporting solar energy production technologies.

Now I hear people from certain commercial interests’ circles complaining about how we supposedly can't do it with solar energy and wind farms combined.
Well maybe not overnight, but over time we certainly can make a gigantic step in the correct direction and steadily and surely stop burning so much fossil fuel.

Instead of repeating myself from another thread, my opinion about nuclear power generation and how they are security risks and environmental disasters waiting to happen, is in the thread by waccobb called gadzooks!! IS IT MORE NUKES?!?!?!?!.

<!---->
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>
<table class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: medium none;" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top"> 3. “Let them eat organic” is not a global option.For affluent humans in industrialized countries, organic food (https://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/o/organic_food/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) is pretty much a harmless luxury. Although there’s no convincing evidence that the food is any healthier or more nutritious than other food, if that label makes you feel healthier and more virtuous, then you can justify the extra cost.<o:p></o:p>
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
To say there's no convincing evidence is an opinion, not necessarily the facts.
There is evidence that does show that depleted soil produces depleted nutrients in vegetables that are grown in the depleted soil in comparison to organic non-depleted, composted soil.

Also there are other factors involved that do involve technology that does not involve so much land it's called [I]vertical farming (https://www.verticalfarming.com/).
Yes, it may involve concentrated fertilizers, but those concentrated fertilizers can be in many cases (because of the new and improving technologies), be reused.
The so-called waste products from the vertical farming process and various other sources that is in essence is (or can be depending on the original source) be mostly organic.
They will not need as much if any pesticides or herbicides, either because of where they will be grown and where there will be situated inside of skyscrapers in urban areas.

Those same skyscrapers or ones nearby could have specially constructed wind turbines that actually generate the power so that they will not need to use much power from the main centralized Power Grid.
There may even be some methane gas to utilize from the composting process, as well as nutrient rich fertilizer from the composting process.
Anyway the list goes on, that's a topic for different threads.

That Zambia issue that was mentioned, as well as what happened in Rwanda and other issues in Africa do have in large part to do with the exploitation those people and the land they live on have experienced from the developed world for what seems like probably is a century (or two?) by now. There are also major cultural and social issues involved with that. Some of which the developed nations are in large part responsible for, because of the lack of ability to supervise the social displacement because of the money, weapons, and power that have plagued those places for a long time now.

<!---->
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<table class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: medium none;" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top"> In “Denialism,” (https://www.michaelspecter.com/denialism/) a book about the spread of unscientific beliefs, Michael Specter criticizes the “organic fetish” as a “pernicious kind of denialism” being exported to poor countries.

“Total reliance on organic farming would force African countries to devote twice as much land per crop as we do in the United States,” he writes. “An organic universe sounds delightful, but it could consign millions of people in Africa and throughout much of Asia to malnutrition (https://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/malnutrition/overview.html?inline=nyt-classifier) and death.”<o:p></o:p>
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

If the affluent would not exploit those places (in the first place) and leave behind so much industrial effluent and ruined environment. They could at some point with some help from the developed nations get back into the organic lifestyle they were successfully doing in the first place. I admit, that would probably take 200 to 300 years to actually be successful at doing that but if that's what the natives’ want, that should be respected.
If they don't want that, then future population is an issue that it is legitimate to discuss.

But right now, to immediately go strictly organic may indeed without massive suffering and death may not be possible in Africa.

Industrial farming won't go away anytime soon. But we can modify our methods using technology to help us make the changes towards sustainability, wisely.

<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
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<table class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: medium none;" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top"> 4. Frankenfood, like Frankenstein, is fiction. The imagined horrors of “frankenfoods” have kept genetically engineered foods (https://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/g/genetically_modified_food/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) out of Europe and poor countries whose farmers want to export food to Europe. Americans, meanwhile, have been fearlessly growing and eating them for more than a decade — and the scare stories seem more unreal than ever.<o:p></o:p>
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
First of all most of those genetically modified foods are fed to animals for meat or milk production. People generally do not directly eat those products.

There are other major problems associated with some of them. One of which is the fact that insects become resistant to the pesticides that are sprayed on the crops of genetically modified foods faster than we become resistant to pesticides. So eventually the insects will be more resistant than we are.
Then we will be poisoning ourselves more than we already have been with the pesticides more so than the insects.
At some point in time, even though the crop might be very successful and productive we won't be able to eat it or feet it to our animals.

<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>
<table class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: medium none;" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top"> Last week, the National Academy of Sciences reported (https://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=12804) that genetically engineered foods had helped consumers, farmers and the environment by lowering costs, reducing the use of pesticide and herbicide, and encouraging tillage techniques that reduce soil erosion and water pollution.
“I daresay the environmental movement has done more harm with its opposition to genetic engineering than with any other thing we’ve been wrong about,” Mr. Brand writes in “Whole Earth Discipline.” “We’ve starved people, hindered science, hurt the natural environment, and denied our own practitioners a crucial tool.”<o:p></o:p>
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Here is a link to a counterspin.org article (Ben Lilliston on genetically engineered foods (https://www.fair.org/index.php?page=4064), Barbara Miner on Teach for America CounterSpin (4/16/10-4/22/10) that challenges such claims: https://www.fair.org/index.php?page=4064.

Decades of inadequate subsidies equals inadequate results.

<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
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<table class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: medium none;" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top"> 6. “New Nukes” is the new “No Nukes.” In the 1980s, Gwyneth Cravens joined the greens who successfully prevented the Shoreham nuclear reactor from opening on Long Island. Then, after learning about global warming, she discovered that the reactor would have prevented the annual emission of three million tons of carbon dioxide. She wrote a book on the nuclear industry titled, “Power to Save the World.” <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Mr. Brand has also renounced his opposition to nuclear power and now promotes it as green energy because of its low-carbon emissions and its small footprint on the landscape. He wants to see the development of small modular reactors, and he quotes a warning from the climate scientist James Hansen, “One of the greatest dangers the world faces is the possibility that a vocal minority of antinuclear activists could prevent phase-out of coal emissions.” <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Some groups, like the Natural Resources Defense Council, are still resisting nuclear power, just as groups like Greenpeace are fighting genetically engineered crops. But if Mr. Brand is right, maybe some greens will rediscover the enthusiasm for technology expressed in his famous line at the start of “The Whole Earth Catalog:” “We are as gods and might as well get good at it.”<o:p></o:p>
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Maybe, if somehow there could be a successful way to use fusion instead of fission, I might consider changing my opinion. But until then, the waste products that would saddle future generations with the extremely toxic substances are incomprehensibly inconsiderate.

Building a whole bunch of new nuclear power plants so that we can have a quick fix now is definitely the wrong thing to do in my opinion.

<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
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<table class="MsoTableGrid" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: medium none;" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top"> Technological progress, not nostalgia or asceticism, is the only reliable way for greens’ visions of “sustainability” to be sustained. Wilderness and wildlife can be preserved only if the world’s farmers have the best tools to feed everyone on the least amount of land. Solar power will be widely adopted only if there are breakthroughs that make it more efficient.<o:p></o:p>
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
I agree with part of that statement (with a twist 180° in the opposite direction).
To say that nukes are the way to go for creating the majority of electrical power that would replace fossil fuels instead of the other technologies that exist which have not been exploited because a particular profiteering type business attitude forces us in the opposite direction, away from utilizing existing technology.

Here’s the 180° twist in the opposite direction:
Instead, certain interests are being [I]nostalgic and [I]ascetic in favor of nuclear power over other technologies that do exist that would make a huge difference if they were subsidized and utilized equally in the modern day equivalent of what the nukes were in the past.

Yes I am concerned about the carbon dioxide issue. But unlike the authors of those books mentioned above I'm not in a panic enough to consider doing something foolish like nuclear power plants.

In my mind putting up nuclear power plants to get rid of CO2 emissions is like cutting off my nose to spite my face, or running straight into a wall right next to an open doorway to get away from something.





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