PD: Graton Group [has finally!] filed suit 3/22/10 to STOP SIREN! YEA!!

[2Bwacco]

Graton group seeks to silence siren

By BOB NORBERG ([email protected])
THE PRESS DEMOCRAT

Published: Thursday, April 1, 2010 at 4:03 a.m.
Last Modified: Thursday, April 1, 2010 at 4:03 a.m.

For decades, Graton's fire department has relied on a World War II-era siren to summon volunteers to fires and medical emergencies, as well as marking noontime every day and the beginning of its weekly training exercises.

"It's the most reliable way of alerting volunteers. It is the most dependable," said Bill Bullard, who is deputy chief of the all-volunteer department.

Irritated neighbors, however, contend that the Civil Defense siren is nothing more than nostalgia and easily replaced by pagers and text-messaging.

"We believe the siren is simply technologically unnecessary," said Danelle Jacobs, a Graton resident for 13 years whose house is within 2 miles of the station. "We are used to it, but I certainly hear it. This is more of a tradition issue and not a public-safety issue."

Jacobs is one of several members of Citizens for a Better Community that filed suit March 22 in Sonoma County Superior Court for an injunction to stop the fire department from moving the siren to a new firehouse.

"We are just saying it is not necessary anymore and it is time to stop," said Jacobs.

The siren is at the site of the fire station in what locals affectionately call downtown Graton. But the department hopes to break ground this summer about a mile away on a $4 million firehouse at Highway 116 and Green Valley Road, Bullard said. The department, which relies on property taxes to fund its $600,000 annual budget, is receiving a 30-year loan from the U.S. Department of Agriculture for the facility.

Graton is one of a few rural fire departments in Sonoma County that still use sirens.

The county's central dispatch center remotely operates the siren at the same time it sends messages to the volunteers' pagers.

Bullard said the siren is necessary to reliably notify volunteers in the hilly West County area where cell phone reception is spotty and pagers do not always go off.

"Pagers are consistently inconsistent," Bullard said. "Pagers work, but not 100 percent. "When you are talking about an emergency call, if someone is not breathing or their house is on fire, it is not enough."

Nearly all Sonoma County fire departments discontinued sirens years ago, relying on pagers, phone texting and even fax machines.

New digital pagers and rebroadcasters, repeaters and microwaves can reach all but the most remote areas, said Ken Reese, the Sonoma County dispatch communications manager.

"As a whole it is very reliable," Reese said. "It has been my experience that it is not very often we get phone calls that say our pagers are not going off. If it does, a lot of times it is human error."

Forestville Fire Department stopped using the siren at night 10 years ago, when it began having volunteers sleep in the station, and discontinued sounding the siren completely three years ago.

"This works for Forestville; I cannot speak for Graton," Forestville Fire Chief Dan Northern said.

Sonoma County Fire Chief Mark Aston said he believes sirens are outdated.

"Technology has evolved where we have high reliability with pagers, and it has diminished the value of the siren," Aston said.

"In Graton, it is a community choice issue . . . the siren may have a value that I am not aware of."

You can reach Staff Writer Bob Norberg at 521-5206 or [email protected].

[justme]

The terrain outside of Graton is a lot different than Forestville. I lived between Graton and Occidental and cell/text service was very sketchy. I could hear the siren and it never really bothered me at all. Just a part of being in a "rural"area. I don't know if Graton has staff 24 hrs at the station but if they don't, I feel the siren is a must in case of an emergency.

The article states that Graton is in the process of building a new station. You people just can't wait till it is done? What is the hurry? All that will happen is Graton will have to use funds for defense of the lawsuit, and maybe some of the funds will come from the construction money. Thus, possibly delaying construction.

It kind of reminds me of when I worked for a resort in Bodega Bay. We had guests actually call us and ask if we could turn the foghorn off!!! They couldn't sleep. A couple of times they actually left to Santa Rosa when we said we needed the foghorn...

That might be the solution for Graton too!!!! :thumbsup:

[2Bwacco]

Seems to me the Graton group has MORE than endured the decades-long disruptions to quiet enjoyment of their homes.

The injunction is a necessary step to halt further auditory intrusions as the new fire station project proceeds. Perhaps the fire station planners could have voluntarily agreed to snuff the siren, but failed to do so.

Tell me, what reasonable explanation is there for sounding the siren at exactly 12 midnight on new year's eve?

In 1969 NASA managed to transmit video from the surface of the MOON. This is 2010.

Our technicians should be able to come up with reliable pagers/cell phones; and there are satellite phones too.

[justme]

Regarding midnite new years eve... Happy New Year!!! Fireworks, celebration, people enjoying the new year... Just my take on it. Some may not enjoy the noise but some do.

I don't know about satellite phone or their cost. Pager and cell phones rely on line of sight generally. I don't think the residents in the area want more towers amongst the redwoods.

I was just wondering. Has a poll been taken of ALL the residents in town and the surrounding area served by the fire district? I was just wondering what the consensus of the community as a WHOLE might be?

Let me know... I am interested...


Seems to me the Graton group has MORE than endured the decades-long disruptions to quiet enjoyment of their homes.

The injunction is a necessary step to halt further auditory intrusions as the new fire station project proceeds. Perhaps the fire station planners could have voluntarily agreed to snuff the siren, but failed to do so.

Tell me, what reasonable explanation is there for sounding the siren at exactly 12 midnight on new year's eve?

In 1969 NASA managed to transmit video from the surface of the MOON. This is 2010.

Our technicians should be able to come up with reliable pagers/cell phones; and there are satellite phones too.

[n4rky]

I posted my own thoughts (https://benfell.livejournal.com/228516.html) on the siren a while ago. It's an issue that can't go away because some people are infuriated every time they hear it. I'm not furious; I'm grateful it only sounds four times now for each alarm rather than the incredible (I don't remember how many) number of times it used to.

But of course the claim that pagers are unreliable is untenable. If nearly the entire rest of the county can rely on them, surely so can Graton.

But what I don't see in the Press-Democrat story is that a suit has been filed over the matter. Can someone fill in the gap?

[justme]

Well I agree with you on all points but the pagers. I lived on Graton Rd. fairy close to the old commune site (Morningstar) and I had no cell or pager service. The only internet still available is dial-up and no cable tv access. (Which personally I don't mind). So to say if the rest of the county can rely on pagers, so can Graton doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I personally have been in areas on the coast, near the russian river, up skaggs springs road and even Bodega Hwy where service doesn't even exist.


I posted my own thoughts (https://benfell.livejournal.com/228516.html) on the siren a while ago. It's an issue that can't go away because some people are infuriated every time they hear it. I'm not furious; I'm grateful it only sounds four times now for each alarm rather than the incredible (I don't remember how many) number of times it used to.

But of course the claim that pagers are unreliable is untenable. If nearly the entire rest of the county can rely on them, surely so can Graton.

But what I don't see in the Press-Democrat story is that a suit has been filed over the matter. Can someone fill in the gap?

[2Bwacco]

In the interests of the golden rule, could folks remember that all people living in this area are not 18-28 years of age, hence are not wide awake at midnight?

Not saying I was inordinately disturbed by the sounding of the siren; it simply did not fulfill its stated purpose: summoning volunteers to an emergency!

Demonstrating a cavalier attitude, "we're awake, so should you be too!"

There are plenty of folks in this area that do not run out every New Year's eve and fire up firecrackers. There are better things to do with one's cash than light it on fire.

I think the siren is a stealth device to depress real estate values. Folks around Graton who purchased land at depressed prices (due to the presence of the siren -- I mean seriously, who would have purchased a home next door to the siren? really?) will now experience growing land values due to the relocation or cessation of the siren.

Folks who live next door to where the new station is to be built will experience similar drop in property values if the siren is implemented. Put yourselves in their shoes?

Press Democrat story: "...Jacobs is one of several members of Citizens for a Better Community that filed suit March 22 in Sonoma County Superior Court for an injunction to stop the fire department from moving the siren to a new firehouse."

[rgazzola]

I posted my own thoughts (https://benfell.livejournal.com/228516.html) on the siren a while ago. It's an issue that can't go away because some people are infuriated every time they hear it. I'm not furious; I'm grateful it only sounds four times now for each alarm rather than the incredible (I don't remember how many) number of times it used to.

But of course the claim that pagers are unreliable is untenable. If nearly the entire rest of the county can rely on them, surely so can Graton.

But what I don't see in the Press-Democrat story is that a suit has been filed over the matter. Can someone fill in the gap?

The impact of the siren seem to vary greatly for everyone. I've lived in Graton for only 3 months though I live right across the street from the Fire House. I was concerned at first when I moved here and everyone told me what to expect from the siren. It turns out to not bother me at all and it does not go off at night very often.

When it does go off, I take a moment to hold the volunteers and the people needing their help in my thoughts and pray for a safe outcome. For me, it's a benevolent sound and reminds me that in a trying world, there are many people doing good work.

I don't get cell service at my house; again only yards away from the station. It does sound like there is an issue to be resolved though I am not sure we can depend on pagers and cell phones.

I'm more concerned about the park proposal for the site and it's impact on my life. Parking and hanging out activity is more an issue for me in Graton. I love my new home but am definitley worried about what is to come.
Rosalie

[tezor]

My name is Bob Rozett, I have been a volunteer firefighter in the West County, starting in 1980, I have worked at 3 fire districts during those 30 years. All have had sirens. I have worked with Freestone, Occidental and Graton, presently with Occidental.

To this day (actually using the system) I find pagers about 85% responsive. That means for every 10 pages my pager should go off, it actually goes off 8 or 9 times. I live and work in the hills out here, both as a contractor and firefighter. I've been in bed at night and not had the pager open up, but then there's the siren giving me a clue I've work to do. There are several canyons that our truck radios have problems transmitting and receiving in, and we must then relay to another truck to communicate with dispatch. The repeaters don't work everywhere, plain and simple.

During these years of response to the public's emergencies, when the page has come in, I have been involved in most every conceivable thing one does in their life. I have been driving tractors, running skilsaws, under houses, mixing epoxy, and I leave the rest to your imagination. While otherwise occupied, especially in the first few instances I mentioned, often I would not have known there was a call except for the wailing of the horn. I could not hear the pager on my hip due to the noise and/or the vibration of the machine I was operating. Another note about the siren is often I've heard from people whose emergency we have just responded to, was that when they heard that wail, they knew that help was coming and it lessened their stress.

I would also like to point out that the Forestville, Russian River, Bodega Bay, and Monte Rio Fire Departments all have duty personnel (paid people waiting at the station 24/7) and hence have no need of rousting the troops from their lives to respond to a call.. My pager is in good shape, though it has a rough life. I know how to operate it after 30 years, so to me, Mr. Reese sounds like a flatlander telling us simple hill folk we don't know what we are doing.

Get out in the hills you'll find out we're fairly well trained, know, and love our jobs. However we lose power, and get more fluctuations in quantity of volts (brown outs from trees) then does Santa Rosa. We have more topography. We are here doing the work, and know what actually works, and what doesn't. What doesn't work is people who have no clue about our jobs telling us how to do it from a simple and uninformed perspective. Ask those that do it if you want to know. If it was your emergency, would you be willing to put up with a 15 to 20% chance that some of the people won't be coming to help?

We seem to have a great deal of fear of radio frequencies out here in the West County. Maybe the radio waves are put off by that, resisting the task of communicating with us when we need it, not going where they aren't wanted. The point is, the system doesn't work as well as I would like to see it work before removing the sirens, which by the way produce sound waves, but no radio frequencies.

I am sure I have support both in and out of the firefighting community, truth be told, I'll bet we outnumber the folks against the siren. So if you folks in Graton really want to get rid of that siren, you better be ready to cough up more $ for fire service, because it'll need to be a staffed station for 100% response. And considering that Graton Fire ( a volunteer station) runs 450+ calls a year, it might not be a bad idea.

[2Bwacco]

Firstly: paragraphs
Secondly: land line

I've been on a diesel tractor mowing grass, and I can't hear anything else, not even the siren.

Even though you have volunteered to assist, it seems as though you are really, kind of, too busy. You have a lot going on.

If someone is unconscious, bleeding, they are not going to be comforted by the siren sounding. So many people make this argument it is starting to sound like a talking point.

As you say, even with the siren in place, they are still using pagers; using both together. By discontinuing the use of the siren the Fire District would save money.

The phasing-out of the old and phasing-in of the new would seem complete! Time to phase out the OLD SIREN FOR GOOD.

A handy, enterprising homeowner could install their own antenna for receiving cell service/pagers and directing the signal to your hand-held device. I installed my own television antenna and pulled in TV stations from San Jose to Sacramento. Point is the technology is there, just has to be tweaked a little, don't you think? The Sheriff's Dept. seems to be able to communicate all around the hills without relying on a siren from county central in Santa Rosa.


"...I have been a volunteer firefighter in the West County..."

[n4rky]

To this day (actually using the system) I find pagers about 85% responsive. That means for every 10 pages my pager should go off, it actually goes off 8 or 9 times.

You also say your pager is thirty years old. I hate to break this to you, because obviously you are attached to it, but technology has improved considerably in the last thirty years.


During these years of response to the public's emergencies, when the page has come in, I have been involved in most every conceivable thing one does in their life. I have been driving tractors, running skilsaws, under houses, mixing epoxy, and I leave the rest to your imagination. While otherwise occupied, especially in the first few instances I mentioned, often I would not have known there was a call except for the wailing of the horn. I could not hear the pager on my hip due to the noise and/or the vibration of the machine I was operating. Another note about the siren is often I've heard from people whose emergency we have just responded to, was that when they heard that wail, they knew that help was coming and it lessened their stress.I spoke with my mother about this. She has lived in Graton for at least twenty years. She points out the parents with colicky babies will not appreciate the siren, that anyone who has sleep difficulties will not appreciate the siren, that anyone who is in poor health will not appreciate the siren.

It seems we have a clash of lifestyles. You want to be able to go on with your noisy life with the siren as a backup system of notification for an old, unreliable pager while other people suffer greatly because of the siren.

I acknowledge your problem, but you are not acknowledging the problems of others. And when it comes to the sorts of people my mother mentions, the generosity of your volunteer service is belied by the increase in their suffering.

I think the siren is not the correct solution. I don't know what is. [Dammit, Jim!, ...-Barry] I'm a social scientist not a radio engineer. I think you need to consider seriously that the vast majority of the county is able to get by without a siren and to seriously--because very little of Sonoma County is flat--explain why Graton is so very much different.

[Imagery]

A handy, enterprising homeowner could install their own antenna for receiving cell service/pagers and directing the signal to your hand-held device. I installed my own television antenna and pulled in TV stations from San Jose to Sacramento. Point is the technology is there, just has to be tweaked a little, don't you think? The Sheriff's Dept. seems to be able to communicate all around the hills without relying on a siren from county central in Santa Rosa.

You have to be in a location where you get enough signal service in the first place in order to these antenna/amplifiers to boost the signal. Anywhere in the West County from just over the first hill west of Graton through Occidental and out to the coast, try to get AT&T service. I promise, you can't. If you can't get signal, you can't amplify signal. You might be lucky enough to live in a place where the television signals come in nicely (say on the top of a large hill?), but it's rather naive to believe that technology goes everywhere.

As for Satphones, not sure that those are very cost effective with the hundreds of dollars a month access fees and $$ per minute usage charges.

[tezor]

Sorry you can't hear well, but read this, I can, and I have heard the siren over several types of noise, and then responded to the call.

I don't think you should be judging, or have enough knowledge about whether I have enough time in my life. Yes it is full, especially when you add the grandkids. But I made the decision to serve my community, and it serves me, as I serve the community.

I have talked to MANY people after 30 years of doing this. Your flippant assumption is wrong, so many of the injured, from falls from a ladder to vehicle accidents, have stated they were glad to hear that horn wail, cause they knew help was coming... it IS a talking point, and one that's relevant.

I have always believed that whatever money we spent on equipment to do our job was worth while, but the siren runs on 3 phase power (very cheap) and other than the modifications done to the Graton siren to divert directed sound from just uphill of the station, there haven't been many costs associated with blowing the horn. So in the case of the sire, we get a lot of bang for the buck.

The system of antennas and such aren't a fix in lots of locations, as someone stated you have to have a signal to amplify it. And have you ever talked to the Deputies and CHP that work out here? Ask them about holes in the areas they work in where reception is thin to spotty to non-existent.

By the by, for the person who thought my pager was 30 year old, not so. I have an 7 year old repeating pager with 2 channels in it. Not old school technology by any means, just doesn't pick up the signal some times. Not just me, but the other firefighters I work with all complain about pagers that don't open. Often when I've just heard the siren, and manually opened my pager to hear the call, a twist of my hips can give me improved reception. It may have actually have allowed the pager to open had I been in that position when the initial page came out.

As I understand, this suit is being pressed by 7 people, some of which are couples, so as I said, I believe we out number them. I also had this conversation with others who disagreed with me, I am sorry about those people who can't roll over and go back to sleep, the unhappy baby and parent(I do know about these), and those of you just like to complain when the siren goes off. However emergency trumps comfort, and community trumps an individuals selfishness.

You who disagree with me may not like it, but it's not all about you, nor is it all about me and my wishes. It's a community, and we've worked well together for years. We live in the country, with all it's glory. Agriculture's smell, noise, and dust, are part of the deal. I believe that goes for the siren. Neighbors help neighbors, the siren is an extension of that, a call to need if you will.

Leave it alone, it isn't going away without a fight, and if it's in court, thanks for taking $ from our VOLUTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT and wasting it on responding to your (my opinion) selfish wants. There are people all over who for their own interests, cause many districts to spend much needed $ on legal fees that should be used for training and equipment for response... If you aren't ashamed of yourself, you should be.

[n4rky]

By the by, for the person who thought my pager was 30 year old, not so. I have an 7 year old repeating pager with 2 channels in it. Not old school technology by any means, just doesn't pick up the signal some times.

Read your own words. You made the claim. I just picked up on it.


As I understand, this suit is being pressed by 7 people, some of which are couples, so as I said, I believe we out number them. I also had this conversation with others who disagreed with me, I am sorry about those people who can't roll over and go back to sleep, the unhappy baby and parent(I do know about these), and those of you just like to complain when the siren goes off. However emergency trumps comfort, and community trumps an individuals selfishness. <snip.

Leave it alone, it isn't going away without a fight, and if it's in court, thanks for taking $ from our VOLUTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT and wasting it on responding to your (my opinion) selfish wants. There are people all over who for their own interests, cause many districts to spend much needed $ on legal fees that should be used for training and equipment for response... If you aren't ashamed of yourself, you should be.

Congratulations. You have just shown who is really being selfish here. Your response is entirely arrogant. I don't know why you're a volunteer firefighter, but it is clearly not out of compassion for your neighbors.

And you have done this without substantively answering even your colleagues in neighboring fire departments who say that pagers work just fine for them, without explaining how it is that the terrain in Graton is so especially difficult that pagers will not work.

As you have now made amply clear, you just like to make noise. You're probably disappointed that the siren only sounds four times now, not ten as my mother informs me it used to. You're behaving like you're three years old.

And you know what? I don't think I want someone with the mentality of a three-year old responding to my emergency.

[justme]

Tezor,
Some may disagree with you but I don't. I feel public welfare is more important than a little discomfort when the siren sounds. Why some can't just wait for the new station to be completed is beyond me. Don't back off your views.... You have more experience with the subject of this thread. Some just always turn the threads into a personal attack and belittling to try to flaunt their perceived intelligence. Thank-you for being a volunteer firefighter, your comments and integrity. At least you walk your talk...:thumbsup:

[Mrs. Wacco]

I am astounded at this response.

How anyone could have read what Tezor wrote and drew these conclusions is mind-blowing!! How can anyone who volunteers their time (and potential life) to help others be considered selfish? Does not compute.



Congratulations. You have just shown who is really being selfish here. Your response is entirely arrogant. I don't know why you're a volunteer firefighter, but it is clearly not out of compassion for your neighbors.

And you have done this without substantively answering even your colleagues in neighboring fire departments who say that pagers work just fine for them, without explaining how it is that the terrain in Graton is so especially difficult that pagers will not work.

As you have now made amply clear, you just like to make noise. You're probably disappointed that the siren only sounds four times now, not ten as my mother informs me it used to. You're behaving like you're three years old.

And you know what? I don't think I want someone with the mentality of a three-year old responding to my emergency.

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[n4rky]

I am astounded at this response.

How anyone could have read what Tezor wrote and drew these conclusions is mind-blowing!! How can anyone who volunteers their time (and potential life) to help others be considered selfish? Does not compute.

Apparently you and Tezor both enjoy excellent health. So do I.

If you did not, you might have a different perspective. If you were a parent with a colicky baby exhausted from lack of sleep, you might have a different perspective.

And Tezor, apart from referring to geographic conditions which do not exist in Graton, has refused to explain why the geography in Graton is so difficult as to demand a siren that even the Forestville fire chief has been quoted as saying he doesn't understand the need for.

The fact is that the claimed need for this siren does not withstand what we in academia refer to as "peer review." Not merely to demand to continue to use the siren, but to threaten a fight over it, while utterly dismissing the ongoing suffering of people who do not enjoy our good level of health is arrogant and manifestly lacking in compassion.

Further, Tezor's tone is unmistakably that of a temper tantrum, such as that thrown by a three-year old. On these grounds alone, I would question his judgment in an emergency situation. And for his lack of compassion, I would be afraid to entrust my life to his hands.

[Barry]

Read your own words. You made the claim. I just picked up on it.

I don't see that in Bob's words.


Congratulations. You have just shown who is really being selfish here. Your response is entirely arrogant. I don't know why you're a volunteer firefighter, but it is clearly not out of compassion for your neighbors.

And you have done this without substantively answering even your colleagues in neighboring fire departments who say that pagers work just fine for them, without explaining how it is that the terrain in Graton is so especially difficult that pagers will not work.

As you have now made amply clear, you just like to make noise. You're probably disappointed that the siren only sounds four times now, not ten as my mother informs me it used to. You're behaving like you're three years old.

And you know what? I don't think I want someone with the mentality of a three-year old responding to my emergency.I'm astounded that someone would write such piddle, especially directed to someone who volunteers to put their life on the line to save your ass! As with most projection, I think it says more about the person projecting rather than their subject.

You can argue and make insulting judgments all you want, but that not going to make a pager go off if it's not getting signal. We've all experienced drop cell calls around Graton and various bits of west county, what's so hard to understand that wireless communication is not 100% reliable?

It's clear that there are limited choices:
1) Keep the siren.
2) Switch to some sort of wireless system and have only 85% of the call signals be received.
3) Have a staffed firehouse and raise taxes to pay for it.

If there is some new technology (like another antenna or two) that would make a wireless work reliably and would have community support, that would be great. Failing that, it seems to me that the siren is needed. How would you feel if your emergency call wasn't responded to??

That said, perhaps there are ways of mitigating the problem. Passing up blowing it on NYE seems like a no brainer, even though I can understand the desire to do so. :happynewyear:

Going further, perhaps the siren can be used more as a backup system. The call could first be put out via a wireless system, and the firefighters could call to acknowledge they got the call and are one their way (or can't come?). If not enough people respond in X amount of time (1 minute?), the siren could be sounded. This does introduce a small delay into the system (requiring the response), but maybe that's an acceptable compromise.

This raises the question in my mind of how the siren is triggered in the first place. Who does that?

[tezor]

N4RKY,

We don't know each other, but I believe we disagree on many fronts. I do not judge the level of compassion you put out in your life, but I return the slur about making noise. I am talking about the all of us, and to me it seems you are talking about the one of you, or your mom.

I said my pager was old, I didn't "state" 30, your perception led you down the wrong path. Might happen more often than you know.

I did state that other departments have paid people to respond. All stations have towers for their antenna's, which receive pages 100% of the time. It is the volunteers who live at home, wherever that is, not the ones at the station, that don't have the antenna. They live in the canyons, or other geographical/geological realities that shape radio reception. These are the folks the siren reaches when the page doesn't. When they are out on a bike ride, out in the back 40 and forgotten their pager (opps human error), they hear and respond. And it's not just Graton, most west county fire departments have this problem, go and ask Cazadero, Fort Ross, Timber Cove, Bodega, Goldridge, and others. We live with it, and try our best to make it work. Those damn sirens help more often than you imagine, or give credit to.

Have you done extensive interviews with the firefighters in the west county? I've got 30 years under my belt, talking shop during mutual aid responses. We talk about stuff, good and bad, this has been a problem since I started 30 years ago. By the way do you know any firefighters( I'll bet you do, 85% of the firefighters in this and all industrial countries are volunteer)? Ask them. As to my level of compassion, I have no need, nor desire to justify my life to you. My neighbors can tell you if wish to do the research.

I don't discriminate when I respond, you could be Dick Cheney, and I would give you the best care I am capable of. My hopes however, are my own business, and I have called on the carpet some firefighters who let their personal discriminatory beliefs show on a call. We care for people, not judge them. Contribute to the solution, not take away from it, or make it worse.

I stand by the way l lead my life, I have been taught solid ethics. I just don't care if you like me, your acceptance of me as I am, is irrelevant to my life. I know I am a bit arrogant, tell me you're not, and I won't believe you. However my main fault is being someone who puts the group (read as the planet) and it's needs at the forefront of my thoughts. I am just saying this is a democracy, not ruled by me, or you, but us.

For the siren folks, probably outnumber your side by such a large margin, there should be no point to the conversation except to explore all the details. Yet you don't care, and will just continue to whine and sue. So sorry your life is so unhappy, but if it gets to the point something real bad happens in your life, call 911, and then just see how you feel when that siren starts blowing.

I don't wish you ill, I just figure you don't get it. In peace, Bob

[n4rky]

I don't see that in Bob's words.]]

To quote Tezor:


My pager is in good shape, though it has a rough life. I know how to operate it after 30 years...

Sounds like a reference to a thirty-year old pager to me.


I'm astounded that someone would write such piddle, especially directed to someone who volunteers to put their life on the line to save your ass! As with most projection, I think it says more about the person projecting rather than their subject.

And I am astounded by your lack of empathy.


You can argue and make insulting judgments all you want, but that not going to make a pager go off if it's not getting signal. We've all experienced drop cell calls around Graton and various bits of west county, what's so hard to understand that wireless communication is not 100% reliable?

Okay, so it's time for me to share some of my experience. As a cab driver in the mid-1990s in Marin County, with considerably more difficult terrain than that around Graton, I carried a pager to receive messages from my customers. I received hundreds of pages. I think I missed two.

The question stands. Why is the situation so much more difficult in Graton? No one wants to answer this. Even when other firefighters raise the question.


This raises the question in my mind of how the siren is triggered in the first place. Who does that?

According to the Press-Democrat story, it is triggered by the county fire dispatch.

[justme]

Before Bodega Bay got their fully staffed firehouse, the siren was triggered by Sonoma County Emergency Services. Once the 24 hr staffed firehouse was built, the siren was no longer used. In the past, and tezor please correct me if I am mistaken, the siren was tested regularly for obvious reasons. It was also sounded in different numbers of tones so to speak. 2 siren blast meant one thing, 3 another, etc so the volunteers knew the severity of the call. This was my understanding of part of it's use....


...
This raises the question in my mind of how the siren is triggered in the first place. Who does that?

[Imagery]

And you have done this without substantively answering even your colleagues in neighboring fire departments who say that pagers work just fine for them, without explaining how it is that the terrain in Graton is so especially difficult that pagers will not work.

As you have now made amply clear, you just like to make noise. You're probably disappointed that the siren only sounds four times now, not ten as my mother informs me it used to. You're behaving like you're three years old.

And you know what? I don't think I want someone with the mentality of a three-year old responding to my emergency.

Can a radio signal be blocked by a mountain? - Naked Scientists Discussion Forum (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=23010)

Here's a little something I dug up for you regarding mountains and microwave frequencies (yes, cell phones/pagers run on 800/900 and 1800MHz MICROWAVE FREQUENCIES). I'm guessing you're intelligent enough to understand a little bit about basic elementary school topography, and might even be intelligent enough to look at a topographic map and see the elevation lines. If you were to do that, you would notice that (for the most part) Santa Rosa is pretty flat. I know, you're going to want to argue semantics and ask about Fountaingrove and that little (well-developed urban area) region which has some elevation changes. The City of Santa Rosa has a huge infrastructure of radio networks, and being in an urban area, has the attention of AT&T (sort of) and Verizon who provide very thorough cellular and paging coverage. It's in their best interests to serve the major population center of the area.
You would also notice that for the most part, this "valley" in which most of Santa Rosa (160' above sea level) resides also contains Rohnert Park(106'), Cotati(110'), Sebastopol(78'), Windsor(118'), and Healdsburg(106')

Personally, I believe it is YOU who wants to create the noise around here - and as far as selfish, I don't see how the needs of the few (people who oppose the siren) outweigh the needs of the many (people whose lives/property have been saved) by the courageous men and women who VOLUNTEER SELFLESSLY to help their community.

[tezor]

I guess I could see how you got to your thinking my pager was 30 years old. The first pager I got 30 years ago was a Plectron. A 110v device that only worked at home, not portable easily. We then went to actual pagers. But the Freestone siren was often my first notice of a call in those days.

We now have repeaters which have made a big but not perfect improvement to aid in dispatch. The dispatch hit buttons that "tone" our department dispatch frequencies, there is often a delay to let the dispatcher finish talking before the wail begins. Way back, (before me) I heard that departments had various tones to (1, 2, or up to 5 cycles would mean different things) I don't have those details.

Thanks to all the kind words I've garnered, this is heartening. You who think I'm a three year old having a tantrum, luckily have never seen me angry. Best for all, if you never do, but again, no ill wishes, just get over yourself, there's way more to life. PEACE, b

[n4rky]

The City of Santa Rosa has a huge infrastructure of radio networks, and being in an urban area, has the attention of AT&T (sort of) and Verizon who provide very thorough cellular and paging coverage. It's in their best interests to serve the major population center of the area.

Thank you for actually addressing an issue rather than just jumping up and down and repeating the same old talking point as if doing so would make it true.

It is my understanding that in some other parts of the state (I'm thinking of San Francisco), even cable TV providers are required to provide service to low-income neighborhoods. It occurs to me that the urgency of this paging service for emergency responders rises to a higher level; that based on experience in even more challenging terrain, providers have the capability to provide this service; and that regulatory agencies have the authority to require it. If so, then the onus lies with the county, and it appears a lawsuit against the county would be properly targeted.

[Occidental Nutrition]

FYI -
My husband, a 52 year old volunteer firefighter, who has volunteered for 36 years, is also not wide awake at midnight when his department gets a fire call in the middle of the night. The calls range from anything to vehicle accidents, structure fires, medical aid, public assists (like helping an elderly person back into bed if they have fallen), domestic violence, alcohol related incidents, to trees down. When its a tree down, they often have to wait for hours for PG&E to come before they can leave. This often happens on a work night, as well as a weekend night. It wakes me up too, but I, like you, can often roll back over and go back to bed.

The Press Democrat failed to mention that in Forestville, they were able to do away with the siren when their department changed from volunteer to having paid staff there full time. Are there any volunteer fire stations that do not have a siren or paid staff, or is it just the ones with paid staff, like Forestville?

Perhaps the Graton community can pass a tax bond so that there can be paid staff, therefore eliminating the need for the siren. To state that the pagers are fool proof, is in our humble opinion, just not true.

It is a fact that my husband's pager goes off randomly every day (often in the middle of the night),and does not go off on every call. There is also human error. Sometimes he forgets his pager, and because he too has to work, cannot drive home to retrieve it. His pager has been lost, broken, or the chargable batteries fail. Because of his day job, his pager cannot always accompany him under the foundation of a house with little crawl space. In those instances, working locally, he relys on the sirens.

Because over the years there are less and less volunteers with a larger population, he is often the only volunteer working locally during the work day. Also, sometimes during the summer, many volunteers are gone at the same time, leaving their numbers extremely low. He has relied on the siren many times in these instances as well.

Today's volunteers are expected to have the same training as those who work in paid stations. Volunteers are expected to give much more of a time commitment away from family, in order to remain a volunteer. Perhaps it is time for Graton to have paid staff, thereby eliminating the siren and compensating the true time commitment that these men and women make for their community.

I do know for a fact that when he is going on a call, he is not, nor has he ever thought, "I'm awake, so should you be too" He is usually just hoping that he gets to the scene on time, and can help someone, and probably secretly hoping that he is not going to get thrown up on, which has happened more times than he likes to remember.

Thanks,
Mary Sheila Gonnella
&
Tom Gonnella, Captain, Occidental Fire Department



In the interests of the golden rule, could folks remember that all people living in this area are not 18-28 years of age, hence are not wide awake at midnight?

Not saying I was inordinately disturbed by the sounding of the siren; it simply did not fulfill its stated purpose: summoning volunteers to an emergency!

Demonstrating a cavalier attitude, "we're awake, so should you be too!"

There are plenty of folks in this area that do not run out every New Year's eve and fire up firecrackers. There are better things to do with one's cash than light it on fire.

I think the siren is a stealth device to depress real estate values. Folks around Graton who purchased land at depressed prices (due to the presence of the siren -- I mean seriously, who would have purchased a home next door to the siren? really?) will now experience growing land values due to the relocation or cessation of the siren.

Folks who live next door to where the new station is to be built will experience similar drop in property values if the siren is implemented. Put yourselves in their shoes?

Press Democrat story: "...Jacobs is one of several members of Citizens for a Better Community that filed suit March 22 in Sonoma County Superior Court for an injunction to stop the fire department from moving the siren to a new firehouse."

[tezor]

n4rky,

You are obviously part of the problem and not the solution when your first plan is to sue. How about taking more $ from already strapped organizations? Get a bill introduced into the state senate, house or call the Govanator to make the providers do it, but sue? WTF? You seem detached from community, not part of it, and you claim to represent it? Not me you don't. Your kind cost immeasurable damage to our finances and well being, I'm done with responding to your blather, get to work, off your ass and contribute... or just f off, I'm done, and I now retract my lack of ill will, you are a bag of farts, just stinky hot foul air. I will step out and let the rain wash you away...peace to all others, b


I'm done with this review, c u in court

[justme]

Tezor,
Yeah he pissed you off. Just one man's opinion... We appreciate the job you are all doing. Earlier I asked a poster if a survey of Graton residents about the siren had ever been done. I got NO answer. Hang in there! Most of us support what you are all doing... Keep the siren till the firehouse is built. Then retire it if it is not needed. Easy solution...


n4rky,

You are obviously part of the problem and not the solution when your first plan is to sue. How about taking more $ from already strapped organizations? Get a bill introduced into the state senate, house or call the Govanator to make the providers do it, but sue? WTF? You seem detached from community, not part of it, and you claim to represent it? Not me you don't. Your kind cost immeasurable damage to our finances and well being, I'm done with responding to your blather, get to work, off your ass and contribute... or just f off, I'm done, and I now retract my lack of ill will, you are a bag of farts, just stinky hot foul air. I will step out and let the rain wash you away...peace to all others, b


I'm done with this review, c u in court

[n4rky]

The Press Democrat failed to mention that in Forestville, they were able to do away with the siren when their department changed from volunteer to having paid staff there full time. Are there any volunteer fire stations that do not have a siren or paid staff, or is it just the ones with paid staff, like Forestville?

As I read this, there are two questions I think worthwhile:

How many fire departments in Sonoma County are "still" volunteer fire departments?
Which of these departments still rely on sirens and how does their terrain compare to that of Graton?



Today's volunteers are expected to have the same training as those who work in paid stations. Volunteers are expected to give much more of a time commitment away from family, in order to remain a volunteer. Perhaps it is time for Graton to have paid staff, thereby eliminating the siren and compensating the true time commitment that these men and women make for their community.

Given that we live in an exchange economy, this seems only reasonable to me. Firefighters respond to commercial as well as to residential locations. For firefighters to be volunteers strikes me as a rather bizarre subsidy for this economic system.

[justme]

Volunteers a subsidy? :hmmm:


As I read this, there are two questions I think worthwhile:
How many fire departments in Sonoma County are "still" volunteer fire departments?
Which of these departments still rely on sirens and how does their terrain compare to that of Graton?


Given that we live in an exchange economy, this seems only reasonable to me. Firefighters respond to commercial as well as to residential locations. For firefighters to be volunteers strikes me as a rather bizarre subsidy for this economic system.

[justme]

It's all about giving back to the community you live in.... Not just taking and demanding.... For a real community to work all residents need to chip in and help when it is needed


As I read this, there are two questions I think worthwhile:
How many fire departments in Sonoma County are "still" volunteer fire departments?
Which of these departments still rely on sirens and how does their terrain compare to that of Graton?


Given that we live in an exchange economy, this seems only reasonable to me. Firefighters respond to commercial as well as to residential locations. For firefighters to be volunteers strikes me as a rather bizarre subsidy for this economic system.

[Barry]

For firefighters to be volunteers strikes me as a rather bizarre subsidy for this economic system.
Yes, it is delightfully out of step with the "system" for people to altruistically volunteer instead of acting out of personal interest. Bravo! :angelsmilie:

Also, it should be pointed out that (most?) all of the current residents of Graton chose to live there siren and all (ie the siren was there first). The is akin to moving in next to farm and then complaining about the odors and other realities of farming.

It's a very legitimate question as to whether Gratonites would prefer to have a volunteer fire dept with a siren or a community supported (via taxes) professional department. It would be much more appropriate to have a vote rather than a lawsuit. What laws have been broken??

Given that Graton is not a city, I imagine that a special assessment district need to be formed if a professional department is chosen, so that Graton is responsible for its own choice, and not the whole county.

But also be aware that just as there are some people who are unhappy with the siren, there will be people who are unhappy with a new tax, even if it passes, including seniors who are just squeaking by. So which is really the compassionate choice?

[Occidental Nutrition]

Best to look at who still uses a siren and that will lead you to the answer of which departments are all volunteer. I think Tezor listed many who have sirens and all volunteers, and you can include Occidental in that list.

And you have to remember, that Graton's district lies outside of the somewhat flat town of Graton. The outlining areas that are part of their fire district are in the hills, mountains, and canyons. Take a drive down Green Valley Rd, thats part of Graton's district.

In the meantime, firefighters are volunteers. Yes, Tezor is a busy man, because he works full time, as well as being a full time volunteer. To personally attack him and his service to the community, well I don't know to say to that really. He actually has another name here in Occidental, and even had a pizza named after him, its "Good Neighbor Bob" Because he is a great neighbor and outstanding volunteer helping people in their time of most need, often life and death.

I believe he was stating his opinion as a volunteer, trying to show another side to the issue. Letting people know why he feels the sirens are necessary from his experience before they jump on one side of the issue or another. Apparently that can be difficult to hear.



As I read this, there are two questions I think worthwhile:
<LI class=list_spacer>How many fire departments in Sonoma County are "still" volunteer fire departments?
Which of these departments still rely on sirens and how does their terrain compare to that of Graton?


Given that we live in an exchange economy, this seems only reasonable to me. Firefighters respond to commercial as well as to residential locations. For firefighters to be volunteers strikes me as a rather bizarre subsidy for this economic system.

[tezor]

Ok all you, including n4rky.

Sorry about that, yeah I lost it. But you sir, are so unclear on the subject it's like talking to a wall... solid concrete.

Do some research jack, 85% of the firefighters on the PLANET are VOLUNTEERS! We are 911. We do most of the work.

Most fire departments are volunteer. Yes, some are paid/volunteer where you have some paid staff( Forestville, Gureneville, Bodega Bay, Goldridge, Windsor, Cloverdale, Healdsburg, Rancho Adobe, Sonoma, Monte Rio, Glen Ellen, ect.) supported by volunteer staff who come in to staff the station when a unit is out on a call. or a fire which requires all available hands. Some only pay the chief (Sebastopol) and the rest are volunteers(although many are city employees), and then there's departments like Santa Rosa and Petaluma which are two fully paid departments in our county. So what you gonna do spunky?

First off, get off your ass, answer your own questions. You are ignorant of what you speak, better to keep your mouth shut than remove all doubt. Do the work, then start dialog. Maybe a solution can come, but the education might remove the question.

It's unclear what you are mumbling about, but are you suggesting that because we respond to commercial calls that we start charging them, but what about residences?

Do you have any clue as to the hours that we devote to training, education, and drill each year? Do you realize that when a new type of car(hybrids) comes out we have to train to safely remove our patients and protect ourselves from high voltage discharges. Do you know about communicable diseases? Power lines, phone lines, down in trees? Can you deliver a baby? Where are you when the storms come pummeling our county with wind and rain, safe in your bed complaining about a siren?
What exactly do you do for our community except be a punk?

I suggest you get some education, you are not a shining example of being prepared for this kind of talk.

Back to wishing all of you the best, peace, b,

[n4rky]

Yes, it is delightfully out of step with the "system" for people to altruistically volunteer instead of acting out of personal interest. Bravo!

Indeed. When I see capitalists behaving with similar altruism, I will withdraw this objection. But as long as their first and often only principle is profit, all too often at the expense of society and of the environment, they are unworthy of altruism.

[Occidental Nutrition]

So, are you trying to say that people like Tezor or my husband, are trying to profit from being on the VOLUNTEER fire department.

Yea, thats what I think when he misses a whole day of paid work, or even days on similar storms like this in the winter or fires in the summer, or even 5 seperate calls in one day. He and others on the department, they do it for the community, that's why he is on the department, You may call that capitalism, but I call that simply trying to survive

They don't get much from being volunteers, but certainly do appreciate appreciation for what they do, not accusations like you have been giving.



Indeed. When I see capitalists behaving with similar altruism, I will withdraw this objection. But as long as their first and often only principle is profit, all too often at the expense of society and of the environment, they are unworthy of altruism.

[2Bwacco]

For the record, the group [that filed suit 3/22/10 seeking to bar relocation of the World War II era (70 year old) air-raid siren to the new fire station] has been trying to work out an amenable solution for about a year.

Meeting about fire station is Thursday April 8, 2010 5-6 pm:

This is a public notice published in the Press Democrat.


* * * * * * * *

New Fire Station, public meeting

From Press Democrat, Public Notice Section:

"Notice of Public Meeting
April 8, 2010 5-6 pm

As part of the Graton Fire Protection District's loan from the USDA to finance the new fire station, it is holding a public meeting to allow the community an opportunity to become acquainted with the proposed project and to comment on such items as economic and environmental impacts, service area, alternatives to the project, or any other issue identified by USDA Rural Development. The meeting will be held at 3205 Ross Road in Graton, For additional information please call (707) 823-5515.

2464102-Pub. Mar. 29, 2010 1 ti."

[Mrs. Wacco]

Before I respond, I want to make sure I understand what you're saying; it is absolutely not clear.

It sounds like you're taking issue with Tezor's volunteerism, which seems like an odd thing.

So before I start taking issue with you, if in fact you are objecting to the idea of volunteers performing civic duties and that this is not a sign of altruism (huh?), perhaps you can clarify what you're saying?

Thanks
Mrs Wacco


Indeed. When I see capitalists behaving with similar altruism, I will withdraw this objection. But as long as their first and often only principle is profit, all too often at the expense of society and of the environment, they are unworthy of altruism.

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[Graton Fire]

Hi All,

Just got back from running 3 calls for trees blocking the roadway... crazy weather we're having.

New Year's Eve siren- just so everyone knows, we don't sound the siren at midnight on New Years... we don't hang out at the station waiting for a midnight call on any night (except on July 4th, for obvious reasons). However, we have received fire calls slightly before and after New Year's midnight in prior years; this may explain the confusion.

Fire chiefs from Occidental and Bodega Bay have both stated their challenges with pagers. I know that Camp Meeker has a siren, but I have not asked their chief about issues. There are other volunteer departments with sirens... I have never done a poll as there are probably 30+ just in Sonoma County. Forestville Fire decreased siren use as paid staffing increased. As Graton has reached 500 calls annually, making it the busiest all-volunteer department in Sonoma County, I can imagine a similar transition for Graton Fire as well. Fortunately, we have enough volunteers to get the job done and have not had to ask for paid firefighters to date.

Some background- This issue of the siren came up during the permit process and everyone was given an opportunity to be heard by the County Board of Zoning Adjustment (Jan/Feb 09). They unanimously approved the siren. This was appealed and the County Board of Supervisors heard the issue (Apr 09). They unanimously denied the appeal. No further appeal/action was filed. We did have three meetings after the appeal to discuss the siren.

The first meeting was excellent- the group really appreciated the pager problems (we had tracked them for a couple months prior to the Supervisor meeting and had two pages of recorded failures from the volunteers). At the second meeting the group asked to speak directly with radio experts. We held a third meeting with the Sonoma County [radio] communications agency, the Sonoma County Dispatch Center (REDCOM), and a vendor of radios and pagers. Subsequent to this meeting, I was informed that the group no longer wanted to meet with us as they had heard third-party that "one of our board members had made up his/her mind and nothing would change." I asked each board member, who confirmed they had made no statement to anyone. Regardless, we continue to research other options for improving the pager system - currently, we have asked county communications about an option where the pager could send back a confirmation tone acknowledging receipt of the emergency call. If it didn't receive the call, then the pager could re-activated. They are looking into this.

If the group of 5-7 people want to start meeting again, that is great. If they have different experts, pagers, and options to share, great let's hear them. The only compromise presented by the group that I can recall was to turn the siren off at night for 8-10 hours. Unfortunately, we have had problems even with pagers sitting in their chargers at night. If there was another solution proposed, I don't remember it, sorry... please refresh my memory.

Thursday's meeting at 5pm is required by the USDA as part of the loan application process. It ensures the community has a chance to ask questions... why we went with USDA? What makes them the best option? Why not get a regular mortgage or bond? etc. If people want to comment on the siren, that is fine. However, we told the USDA about the issue when we filed the preapplicatoin. In addition, the group filing the law suit also contacted the USDA directly to share their concerns.

Lastly, I am not planning on replying to all messages posted... I would rather meet in person and have a face-to-face dialogue. If the community would like a special meeting about the siren, please attend our board meeting on Tuesday 4/13/10 starting at 7:30pm. I am sure the board would be more than willing to schedule a special meeting for the community.

Last, last thing - Thank you to everyone, including this group of 7, who support us... your volunteer firefighters. At no time during this issue has there been any question about anyone's support for us or the new station.

Sincerely,

Bill Bullard, [volunteer] Deputy Fire Chief
Graton Fire Protection District

[Dixon]

Some plausible concerns have been raised about the siren, i.e., it's bothering colicky babies, people with sleep problems, etc. I sympathize with these folks, and I agree that it's really unnecessary to mark noon with a non-emergency siren blast.

However, re: emergency usage of the siren, I tend to defer to those with more expertise, so I'm swayed by the arguments of those such as Tezor, who argue convincingly that pagers etc. are not a sufficient substitute for the siren in the Graton area. It's hard to imagine why someone with Tezor's considerable relevant experience would take that position if it weren't true.


I don't think I want someone with the mentality of a three-year old responding to my emergency...Tezor's tone is unmistakably that of a temper tantrum, such as that thrown by a three-year old. On these grounds alone, I would question his judgment in an emergency situation. And for his lack of compassion, I would be afraid to entrust my life to his hands.

Let me suggest a partial solution to your concerns, n4rky: Perhaps you and those who feel similarly can come up with a legal document which you can sign which will exempt you (and your families?) from receiving these emergency services, so that when it's you who have had a car accident, heart attack, or whatever, the siren will not be sounded and you won't have to suffer the ministrations of those such as Tezor, whose judgment and compassion you deem deficient. Don't forget to carry a pager, so that (if you're conscious) you can page someone who meets your standards. This plan would decrease both the number of times the siren is sounded and the amount of money spent on emergency services. A win-win situation for everyone on both sides of the dispute.

[n4rky]

So, are you trying to say that people like Tezor or my husband, are trying to profit from being on the VOLUNTEER fire department.

If you insist on misunderstanding my words, you might very well succeed. Rather, I am saying the opposite. I am saying the capitalists should demonstrate the altruism that volunteer firefighters do. While I'll acknowledge my previous posting was perhaps not as crystal clear as might be nice, this is a far more consistent reading of my words.

[n4rky]

I suggest you get some education, you are not a shining example of being prepared for this kind of talk.

The professors in my Ph.D. program would be amused to see this. I'm a doctoral student at California Institute of Integral Studies in the Transformative Studies program. I have a M.A. in speech communication and a B.A. in mass communication, both from CSU East Bay in Hayward.

It was you who never seriously answered a question and never effectively defended your position. It is not incumbent upon me to answer these questions. You as the advocate for a position are responsible for defending it. And you failed, throwing a temper tantrum in the process. Temper tantrums do not count as scholarly debate.

You left the real work to Imagery. And while the relative elevations (s)he cites are not in themselves persuasive, the difficulty of getting (capitalist) corporations to provide effective service even for emergency services is a salient point.

You have some serious growing up to do when you admit to losing your temper and then accuse the other fellow of being ill-educated. Shame on you.

[n4rky]

Regardless, we continue to research other options for improving the pager system - currently, we have asked county communications about an option where the pager could send back a confirmation tone acknowledging receipt of the emergency call. If it didn't receive the call, then the pager could re-activated. They are looking into this.

My understanding is that pagers contain receivers but not transmitters. It is also conceivable that even if a pager included a transmitter, it would lack sufficient power to transmit an acknowledgment in many circumstances, leading to a rather ridiculous situation where yes, your poor beleaguered firefighter got the page from a more powerful central transmitter, but the system keeps resending it.

Suffice it to say, I like the idea. But my own experience with radio is that antenna placement tends to be worth a lot more than anything else. And for that, you need your vendors to provide a level of service appropriate for your application. You're an emergency service for crying out loud; it's not an unreasonable request.

[tezor]

N4rky,

It may be that you overestimate your communication skills, if so many misinterpret your mumblings. You have not responded to almost anything I've said, except to hand pick a couple of things. You dismiss patients who stated they were comforted by the horn, why, because it doesn't fit your story?

These folowing quotes are your's, what have they got to do with this discussion we were having? Why do others not understand your blather? You just wander around any point the doesn't work for you. You ignore anything that is solid, and focus on whatever strikes your fancy in the ethereal.

Check your meds, get someone to adjust them. Now I'm only an EMT, not a doctor, but I think you should go see a psyco-proctologist, it seems like your head is up your ass.


<div> Given that we live in an exchange economy, this seems only reasonable to me. Firefighters respond to commercial as well as to residential locations. For firefighters to be volunteers strikes me as a rather bizarre subsidy for this economic system.
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Please get back on track if you'd like to have a discussion. Is this below you? Please learn to respond to people, it makes community work, or do you even care? You seem like the A-typical over educated moron who takes himself very seriously, and thinks the world should as well. Well sorry buddy, go back to checking facts, which you seem rather short on.

Do your own work, mom's not here. Like I said, get a real education, in life, not school, something that might help you communicate, maybe even in living in a world with real people. Your pieces of paper don't mean much, it's the way you work in the world that counts. You seem to thrive on contentiousness, I do understand that. But you don't seem to have a way through it to actually communicate. We don't insist upon mis-understanding your words, they are not crafted well, they don't have clear context, you are rambling, got it?

Another detail, some pagers do contain transmitters; and with the repeaters, they can talk to dispatch. Of course they can't if they are in one of the difficult areas out in the west county, they would need someone to relay for them...However we don't have antenna's at our houses, just the pager. No one in the fire service typically has one at home. Got that?


Ok, to all once again, so sorry this wandered so far afield from it's intentions. This is a discussion about a siren and whether or not it is needed in this century for communication. I stand by all of my statements, but won't continue with the contentiousness. Stepping back the whole thing was not what I had worked toward/hoped for. Best wishes, b
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[n4rky]

You dismiss patients who stated they were comforted by the horn, why, because it doesn't fit your story?

And you dismiss the elderly, the sick, and desperate parents with colicky babies. The patients you refer to might find relief in the siren a very few times in their lives. The people I'm referring to have to live with the siren on a daily basis. On the compassion front, you aren't winning this argument.

And that should also answer those who claim people shouldn't have moved in to places where the siren already was: very few people choose illness. Very few people choose to get old (but it happens to all of us). And I can't imagine a parent who wants their infant to be miserable.


These folowing quotes are your's, what have they got to do with this discussion we were having? Why do others not understand your blather? You just wander around any point the doesn't work for you. You ignore anything that is solid, and focus on whatever strikes your fancy in the etheral.

You might find them a little less ethereal when you start answering calls for drunk driving accidents involving people driving from one winery/tasting room to the next. We already have one of these at the intersection of Highway 116 and Graton Road. Another--if it can survive various challenges--is to be built at the corner of Highway 116 and Occidental Road. And I'm told that a whole series of them, all requiring zoning changes, are planned for our own (not so) charming attempt to replicate the Napa Valley.

The wineries expect to be making money hand over fist, while you provide their fire protection service and medical response for free. But hey, that's capitalism for you.


Check your meds, get someone to adjust them. Now I'm only an EMT, not a doctor, but I think you should go see a psyco-protologist, it seems like your head is up your ass.

These sorts of comments only reinforce my previous impression of you. You have a lot of work of your own to do before you will in any way prove competent to advise others about their lives.

[2Bwacco]

When folks are over-worked and sleep-deprived many things suffer, including their ability to spell. (Perhaps also their ability to make good decisions that save lives. This applies to EVERYONE, not just volunteer firefighters.)


"...I'm only an EMT, not a doctor, but I think you should go see a psyco-protologist..."


Here is what the Sonoma County Fire Chief has to say:

"...Sonoma County Fire Chief Mark Aston said he believes sirens are outdated.

"Technology has evolved where we have high reliability with pagers, and it has diminished the value of the siren," Aston said. ..."

[tezor]

Ok, so sorry, I should have used spell check, I do make mistakes, every day just to prove my humanity. Thanks for including all of us, it's nice to be included.

And as far as that Sonoma County Fire Chief, well let me just say, I don't agree with him completely. It has diminished the need for sirens, not displaced the need. He should talk to west county department personel, but only if he wants an earfull...



When folks are over-worked and sleep-deprived many things suffer, including their ability to spell. (Perhaps also their ability to make good decisions that save lives. This applies to EVERYONE, not just volunteer firefighters.)




Here is what the Sonoma County Fire Chief has to say:

"...Sonoma County Fire Chief Mark Aston said he believes sirens are outdated.

"Technology has evolved where we have high reliability with pagers, and it has diminished the value of the siren," Aston said. ..."

[buddhafrog]

Wow...n4rky...you sir are ridiculous. We have a siren here in Camp Meeker as well and it IS needed. You are painting a picture that Graton is the only place using a siren. There are plenty of us around that use the siren and for good reason. Don't you ever run outside to play catch with your kid, or walk over to the store, or do anything with a certain kind of spotanity? You may also find yourself without your pager. Just to remind you we do this as volunteers, I don't always have a pager on me. And in MOST places the pager does not work. Our Siren is needed. Having driven through the outskirts of your town I know the same is true there.
Perhaps you should move back to San Fran or where ever your city slicker attitude came from. Around West County we are neighbors helping neighobrs. Perhaps someday you could join us instead of fight us.

[n4rky]

Wow...n4rky...you sir are ridiculous. We have a siren here in Camp Meeker as well and it IS needed. You are painting a picture that Graton is the only place using a siren.

The Press Democrat story (https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20090501/articles/905019887) on which I relied for my initial impression of the situation of siren use around the county obviously painted an incomplete picture.


There are plenty of us around that use the siren and for good reason. Don't you ever run outside to play catch with your kid, or walk over to the store, or do anything with a certain kind of spotanity? You may also find yourself without your pager. Just to remind you we do this as volunteers, I don't always have a pager on me. And in MOST places the pager does not work. Our Siren is needed.

In Camp Meeker, I can certainly see why.


Having driven through the outskirts of your town I know the same is true there.

Nonsense. In contrast to the terrain around Camp Meeker, the terrain in Graton is gentle. There are hills to the west and east, but they are nowhere near as steep as in Camp Meeker or in Occidental. And in contrast to the canyon which characterizes Occidental, Camp Meeker, and the road which connects them, Graton has no canyons but lies largely on a plain between the hills. You are comparing apples and oranges.


Perhaps you should move back to San Fran or where ever your city slicker attitude came from. Around West County we are neighbors helping neighobrs. Perhaps someday you could join us instead of fight us.

And perhaps you should use your eyes before generalizing from Camp Meeker to Graton in two ways:
Actually reading the entire thread, in which you would see that there are more issues in contention here than the feasibility of the existing pager system
noticing the stark differences in terrain

[tezor]

N4rky

You sir, are unclear on the concept of communication.

Did you understand that I've been doing this for 30 years, yet you don't think I've seen the horrors of drunk driving? Do you want me to tell you what I've seen? The peoples lives ended, ruined, and the incidental suffering that surrounds these incidents? What universe do you live in?

No compassion for those that suffer from the siren? I align towards the buddhists on compassion, while I must have it for all(even you), life is suffering.

Yet you are wrong again, I do not dismiss them, I sincerely wish they didn't have to suffer through anything, that that baby will sleep, that the ill will get care (but not from me right?) I repeat the needs/emergency of the community trumps the one person, but then again not every one is as important as you. Opps theres that contentiousness again.

So now I'm a dupe of the culture? Because I volunteer to support my community and the folks in it, it demeans me? Jeezzz buddy somebody ought to take away the shovel you are digging your hole with...look up community, you may be part of the problem with this world, your sh#t stinks like everyone else, just smell it sometime.

Ya know, if you find this culture so despicable, what are you doing here? What is is that you do, that adds to society? If it is so difficult for you to find people at your level here, why stay? Personally, I'd suggest you start looking in the gutter for your kindred spirits. Other than as an irritant, and a waste of my time, what purpose do you serve, the prince of darkness?

And to keep this in perspective I'll paraphrase a line from "Air America" "I never said I was a good buddhist." It's hard to have compassion for you, but I'll suffer through the trying.

[Larysa]

Dear Mr. Tezor!

First of all, thank you for volunteering as a firefighter!

Secondly, when I first moved to the area near the firestation a few years ago, the siren was overwhelming. Once I understood what it was for, I am very grateful for it and stop whenever I hear it to send non-denominational blessings to the people needing your assistance and to the firefighters responding to the call.

Each time I get a little choked up that someone would volunteer to be on call - ready to drop everything and anything and go out to face very heart-braking and grim situations; especially on cold and rainy nights.

I moved here from San Diego and the Graton volunteer fire department has an exceptionally fast response time. I LOVE living here, because the siren reminds me that heaven forbid I was needed assistance, you guys would be there in a few heart beats.

I think the folks who filed the suit to stop the siren, should stop and think instead. I suggest they withdraw the suit and give it a rest. Perhaps they could donate their time and money to the new firestation for improved technology and/or volunteer to staff the station on a 7/24 basis.

Thank you again, Mr. Tezor and all the other fire-station volunteers!

Hugs,

Larysa

PS - Ignore all the knuckle-heads. In Ukrainian, we call them 'kapoosta-heads'! (Kapoosta means cabbage.) So now when you read their stupid postings, you can laugh and say: "They're just a kapoosta-head!" :)

[pbrinton]

The professors in my Ph.D. program would be amused to see this. I'm a doctoral student at California Institute of Integral Studies in the Transformative Studies program.

...an online course which advertises itself thus:

PhD in Transformative Studies

Scholarship, Creativity, Self-Inquiry

The primary focus of the doctoral program in Transformative Studies (TSD) is to develop thought-leaders who are committed to exploring leading-edge issues in innovative ways that combine scholarship, creativity, and self-inquiry.

The program places great value on developing the ability to participate in the scholarly discourse through publication, and on the importance of viewing academic inquiry as an opportunity for personal and social transformation, while grounding transformative processes in academic depth, rigor, and imagination.

The program focuses on the development of the following capacities:
Making an original transdisciplinary research contribution in a chosen area of inquiry.
Engaging in inquiry as a creative and collaborative process in the context of a community of learners.
Engaging inquiry as an integral, spiritual, and transformative process of personal and social transformation.Applying one’s research to real-world problems, articulating and embodying one’s values, and skillfully putting theory into practice.(from their website)

May I suggest you submit this thread to your professors and report back their comments on how well you are exemplifying their teaching? Inquiring minds eagerly await their response.

Patrick Brinton

[n4rky]

May I suggest you submit this thread to your professors and report back their comments on how well you are exemplifying their teaching? Inquiring minds eagerly await their response.

This is in fact being done.

I have copied my latest blog posting (https://benfell.livejournal.com/488032.html) about all this which includes a prominent link to this discussion into our internal discussion system. Two of my professors in a class that advocates a (cooperative) partnership model of civilization over an hierarchical dominator model will indeed review that posting. The trouble here is that this discussion best illustrates how a nominally partnership system (volunteer firefighting) is transformed into a system of domination.

[Barry]

This is in fact being done.
Excellent! Will you confirm that they have read this thread and let us know what they have to say?

[n4rky]

Excellent! Will you confirm that they have read this thread and let us know what they have to say?

I cannot promise that they will read the thread. Further, I have to obtain permission prior to sharing their response as there is a privacy rule in effect and I also cannot promise that they will grant permission. But I have passed along the request.

[Imagery]

I cannot promise that they will read the thread. Further, I have to obtain permission prior to sharing their response as there is a privacy rule in effect and I also cannot promise that they will grant permission.

Gee, that's pretty convenient. So much for their ability to use their degrees to register and communicate their response themselves, huh? :rolleyes:

[n4rky]

Gee, that's pretty convenient. So much for their ability to use their degrees to register and communicate their response themselves, huh? :rolleyes:

Yes, and I fully understand (and even respect) your skepticism. I would point out, however, that neither of them live in this area and unlike myself, they are fully employed.

[Imagery]

The trouble here is that this discussion best illustrates how a nominally partnership system (volunteer firefighting) is transformed into a system of domination.

Since you're a Doctoral candidate in communications (as I understand your post regarding your education), perhaps you can show us how the post, at least the original topic, can demonstrate anything of the sort?

Why not have the minority (who have filed suit) join forces with the fire department and file suit against the county? As you've suggested, perhaps that would force the county to erect numerous towers along the mountaintops and ridges of western Sonoma County so that the pager/cellular/communications radio signals can reach everywhere throughout the west county?

Oh, while you're at it, these minority, since they've proven their willingness to spend time in court, why not convince them to pay their lawyers to defend against the numerous lawsuits which will be filed by the tin-foil hat committees (i.e. the free Wi-Fi downtown will fry my brain people) who will spend their last dimes suing to block construction of these needed towers?

The point boils down to this:

The siren is a proven method by which volunteer firefighters are alerted to the need for them to save lives/property/etc. Until there is a 100% proven method, which can consistently provide the alerts needed, the siren should stay. If the minority want peace and quiet, then let them HELP the volunteers in assembling some repeater towers in places where the signal will reach everywhere in the West County.


Now, I'd still like to see how this "nominal(ly?) partnership system" of volunteer firefighting is turning into a "system of domination". Perhaps it's how the vocal minority is working so diligently to DOMINATE the safety of the rest of the community. Let's hope that it doesn't wind up costing the wrong people.

[n4rky]

Since you're a Doctoral candidate in communications (as I understand your post regarding your education),

You might want to try reading a little more carefully. That is not what I said. And believe it or not, I do tire of repeating myself.


perhaps you can show us how the post, at least the original topic, can demonstrate anything of the sort?

Any what of what sort? Perhaps you'd like to try this again in the morning. Because I don't know what you're referring to.


Why not have the minority (who have filed suit) join forces with the fire department and file suit against the county? As you've suggested, perhaps that would force the county to erect numerous towers along the mountaintops and ridges of western Sonoma County so that the pager/cellular/communications radio signals can reach everywhere throughout the west county?

You'd have to ask them. My intent here has simply been to call attention to a couple of points which firefighters seemingly have been reluctant to address. For this, I have been targeted with temper tantrums, insults, and patronization.

So what I would suggest to you all is that cooperation is a two-way street. You have been terribly insensitive to any concerns but your own. You (though I would at least partially exclude your somewhat better-mannered deputy Fire Chief from this statement) have refused to seriously consider alternative solutions. And here you magnify the problem from Graton, with its somewhat different terrain to all of west Sonoma County.

I'm not trying to solve the problem in Occidental or Camp Meeker. In those places, with their somewhat steeper and more difficult terrain, I accept that a siren may indeed be the only option. But your attempt to draw those places into this is yet more evidence of the way you have, and I am assuming you have been every bit as obstinate with others as you have been with me, treated people who really aren't being all that unreasonable.

There's a form of bullying that isn't physical. It essentially relies on shouting down opposition, making people feel that to speak up is to appear disloyal to the community. Your persistent references to people who oppose you as a minority, despite what I suspect is a complete lack of empirical evidence to support that claim, in combination with the treatment I have received here demonstrates a form of intimidation tactic that will indeed lead a great many people will simply shut up a lot of the time. And it protects you, most of the time, from having to confront serious issues, from having to answer hard questions.

But as you see, I don't respond the way that many people do. And apparently the folks who have filed suit have also chosen a different path. You might want to consider your own behavior as possibly leading people to feel they have no other recourse than the courts.


Oh, while you're at it, these minority, since they've proven their willingness to spend time in court, why not convince them to pay their lawyers to defend against the numerous lawsuits which will be filed by the tin-foil hat committees (i.e. the free Wi-Fi downtown will fry my brain people) who will spend their last dimes suing to block construction of these needed towers?

Unfortunately, it happens just often enough that the people in tin foil hats have a point. Also unfortunately, I seem not to have bookmarked an article that illustrates the problem. As I recall, while about 50 percent of studies on cell phone hazards indicate there is no hazard, if one segregates the studies by whether or not they are industry-sponsored, about 75 percent of the studies which are not industry-sponsored suggest there may be a problem.

So antenna placement needs to be done carefully. The power of a transmission decreases with the square of the distance (which I assume is also the reason that antenna location is so often a more important factor in successful transmission than transmitter power). I'm inclined to think it is a bad idea to locate cell phone towers--and I'm gathering, perhaps incorrectly, that pagers are now operating off cell phone systems--too close to places where people are, a lot of the time.

As the terrain surrounding Graton is largely rural, it strikes me that this is a solvable problem. But as with the siren, the approach needs not to be the one you so readily rely upon, that you know it all, that you have all the answers, and that you effectively bully anyone who challenges your views.


The point boils down to this:

The siren is a proven method by which volunteer firefighters are alerted to the need for them to save lives/property/etc. Until there is a 100% proven method, which can consistently provide the alerts needed, the siren should stay. If the minority want peace and quiet, then let them HELP the volunteers in assembling some repeater towers in places where the signal will reach everywhere in the West County.

Based on how I have been treated here, I would have to say you have shown yourselves unreceptive to such cooperation.


Now, I'd still like to see how this "nominal(ly?) partnership system" of volunteer firefighting is turning into a "system of domination". Perhaps it's how the vocal minority is working so diligently to DOMINATE the safety of the rest of the community. Let's hope that it doesn't wind up costing the wrong people.

It is in every word you, your colleagues (except, as I said, your deputy fire chief), and your supporters have written.

[n4rky]

At this point, I think I have said all that I can say on this issue. So I am unsubscribing from this thread. Should my professors choose to respond, I still have the numerous email notifications I have received in regard to this thread, and I will find my way back.

[Imagery]

Since you're a Doctoral candidate in communications (as I understand your post regarding your education)...You might want to try reading a little more carefully. That is not what I said. And believe it or not, I do tire of repeating myself.

Here's what you said in reference to your education:


The professors in my Ph.D. program would be amused to see this. I'm a doctoral student at California Institute of Integral Studies in the Transformative Studies program. I have a M.A. in speech communication and a B.A. in mass communication, both from CSU East Bay in Hayward.

Strange - you're in a Ph.D. program, you claim to be a doctoral student and I'm assuming <perhaps wrongfully> you're going to attempt to complete this program...which would make you a doctoral (degree) candidate...

[Gratongirl]

Following this post with much sympathy for my friend, Bob, who...contrary to your assertions that he is a big, temper throwing baby...happens to have a long track record of civic and community involvement the likes of which I am sure you cannot comprehend...

I am finally chiming in to say: Do you even "sort of" know the bounds of our Fire District? It actually covers a huge area well out Vine Hill Rd, way out Graton Rd (which if you've ever biked is quite steep and hilly) over Harrison Grade...out Green Valley!!!! and all the lanes in between. It is indeed quite spectacularly hilly...and huge...and far reaching.

Also, as someone who has lived a block uphill with a bedroom window pointed right at the siren...for 26 years...while raising a colicky baby to full blown adult...wow! I have mixed feelings about the siren...I do...but I definitely know how I feel about people that attack volunteer fire fighters on a personal level when they themselves have not shown similar community commitment. I'm truly sorry that I did not post this before you left the conversation, n4rky. And I hope that you'll peek back here from time to time and maybe even apologize to tezor/Bob.

He has a track record which he can be proud of. Maybe someday you will too...but only if you are truly capable of learning.


And here you magnify the problem from Graton, with its somewhat different terrain to all of west Sonoma County.

I'm not trying to solve the problem in Occidental or Camp Meeker. In those places, with their somewhat steeper and more difficult terrain, I accept that a siren may indeed be the only option. But your attempt to draw those places into this is yet more evidence of the way you have, and I am assuming you have been every bit as obstinate with others as you have been with me, treated people who really aren't being all that unreasonable.

[tezor]

I would like to make clear to all, I speak as a private citizen, in no way do I speak for any of the organizations I belong to or support. I encourage people speaking their minds, no matter their opinion, it is constitutional after all.

[adotbopp]

well it sounds like i missed out on most of the exciting part of this thread lol so ill just throw out a couple things, gratongirl your completly right the graton fire district is quite large being roughly 27 square miles the borders being 1-16 and ross station (bordering forestville fire) to 1-16 and hurlbut ave (bordering seb. fire) then the bridges on gueneville rd and occ. rd (bordering sr/rincon vly fire) then graton rd and green hill rd. (bordering occ. fire). from wat i see the biggest nuisence in this town is a select few selfintitled shitheads that im assuming (correct me if im wrong) have moved here and are now trying to change all the things that make our town great...if you dont like it then leave. and bob i am personally ashamed this n4rky fella is (im assuming again) from my home town

peace to all
-bopp-

[Gratongirl]

from wat i see the biggest nuisence in this town is a select few selfintitled shitheads that im assuming (correct me if im wrong) have moved here and are now trying to change all the things that make our town great...if you dont like it then leave. and bob i am personally ashamed this n4rky fella is (im assuming again) from my home town

peace to all
-bopp-

Point of correction: the people involved in the lawsuit are not newcomers to Graton for the most part. Several of them have lived here for decades, and raised their children in Graton...who are now in their late 30's...so they have been around a long time. However, the siren is being moved into their immediate neighborhood, and that is their concern. The folks that I know don't fit your description starting with self entitled...

[Thad]

One thing to say about the Siren, it does give the Coyotes a Thrill


Point of correction: the people involved in the lawsuit are not newcomers to Graton for the most part. Several of them have lived here for decades, and raised their children in Graton...who are now in their late 30's...so they have been around a long time. However, the siren is being moved into their immediate neighborhood, and that is their concern. The folks that I know don't fit your description starting with self entitled...

[Barrie]

One thing to say about the Siren, it does give the Coyotes a Thrill
I lived in Graton for a while and never had a problem with the siren. It serves a purpose. People move into an area then decide they want it to be more like where they used to live, usually an urban area with out the smells, sound, etc. of rural life.

Barrie

[justme]

Unsubscribing? Why? ...It has been a while since you submitted the thread to your professors and I am just wondering what their analysis is? Any word? I wouyld think that with all the differing opinions that are being posted, your professors would be more than willing to contribute their views....Of course, as one person emailed me on a past thread, unsubscribing in the heat is a cop out... Hope this isn't the situation... Anyone heard from n4rky?


At this point, I think I have said all that I can say on this issue. So I am unsubscribing from this thread. Should my professors choose to respond, I still have the numerous email notifications I have received in regard to this thread, and I will find my way back.