More people have been killed in the name of...

[LenInSebastopol]

There are places that are cheap and they require everything, but because they are derided, scoffed at and clowned, churches are not held to be such places....so years may go by without a chance. Those places are made for the 'throw aways' no matter what age....but ....they go unused far and wide...some within walking distance of the square.

I so have to disagree with you. Religion? Are you serious? More people have been killed in the name of religion than anything else. It was formed as a means to control the masses.

Disagreement is what we all come here for, almost. But I would beg to differ on the technicality of "more people have bee killed in the name of" as a minor point, it was those folks in the last century that killed more folks in the name of their dogma, socialism, than all religions combined. There were just more folks to kill around then and so they went out in the name of their "religion" or untested hypothetical belief structure and with high tech killed a bunch. Pol Pot only got 3M, Adolph was the piker with only 12M, but Uncle Joe got about 40M and Chairman Mousy Dung got about 70M, so all told about 165 million folks died in less that 100 years! And from what? You can successfully argue that it wasn't "religion" and you would be right; it is only MAN and the insatiable desire for power and control, no matter if one calls it "religion" or "politics"; which, for me, removes the "religion killed more...than...." because if there was NO religion there would still be man and his desire to dominate others. At least that is my petty belief.
I also disagree that religion was "formed to control the masses", only because it is half true. It IS used to control masses of folks, no doubt and that serves a function that has yet to be met by another social structure, but that is not WHY it is here. As some old dead French guy once put it, but not in English, "There's a God size whole in every man's soul" or was it heart? Ah, you know those French and their fries! In any case others come along and exploit folks in the name of "......" and so folks relinquish their stuff. Don't ask me as I don't know why folks do, but it is probably out of fear or love, two primary motivators for human types.


I am sorry if you believe the fairy tales but strings come along with help from them. You have to love Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior, do everything they say without question, or their help disappears.

Ya know, Newton once said something about the whole universe being off about a 1/4" and you may prove him true. First, it only helps if you love Jesus, Our Lord and Savior, but you don't have to. Truth is there are times I hate Him and KNOW that if around I would nail Him to the Cross AGAIN. But then we all have our issues. So, you are free to be ambivalent, or not, but you don't have to even believe in Him. Hate to be so dismissive but we are talking serious stuff here. As for the strings being attached...like all relationships, there are and, like all, you are still free.


A great example is missionaries. "Would you like something to eat? OK. You have to love Jesus and follow Our religion not yours" It was the very excuse used to conquer land and destroy civiilizations, the Native Americans are a great example of this.

It appears that you hold all religions and belief structures as "equal", as in yours, mine, all the same. Not so...you mentioned fairies and the belief structure in them does not yield the same as, say, Judaism. And I say that here in Wacco Land where we are thick with their belief in such! But I say that with some conviction and opinion; some systems are more accountable and offer more than others. In your above claim it appears not to be so. I see you admire Native Americans and for what I may never understand. We were a stone age people, very cruel to other tribes, in the main, and some of us ate our fellow men.....although no tribe on the planet can deny such an action for themselves. As for conquering and destroying, that is the nature of the beast, as stated above, and religion is simply the guise in which it has traveled. Without it men are even beastlier!


I'm sorry you have not come to terms with this truth, but I cannot help. I've known it was B.S. since a little kid watching all the hypocripsy of my very very religious, catholic family and the other members of my church, who actually gives thier 10% tithing and pray for me every Sunay that I won't go to hell for not being there. It is called brainwashing.

And I am sorry that you still believe that there are folks that are not hypocritical whether involved in a religion or not. Sad truth is, I've found folks to be not very well in most of those areas; religion just adds another more permeable and transparent layer. I've found folks to be hypocrites and the truth is, for me, there was only One that wasn't and we couldn't stand it so we crucified Him.



And if your kids have never tried drugs, why in the world did you say, I have a 14 year old, let's stop this??? What are you worried about. I'm glad you are not a cop and allow freedoms but that is just not true of everyone. My parents knew where/what/ and why I was doing every second of the day. I could not close the door to my room or bathroom because that meant I must be doing something wrong. They came into my room every night to make sure I had not snuck out. They third degreed me constantly, so yes, it can be done, I just do not advise it!


Miscommunication: I do not have a 14 year old. I am sorry if I misstated that, but I believe I was responding to a mother who does have one. It was probably poor typing on my part.
As for your parents, if you have children you can easily realize that worry is a major hobby and concern for them; their expressions of love may have twisted you or they may have expressed it in a twisted way, but behind it was just that: concern for theirs and not to make the errors they made. Is that so bad? Forgiveness is a Christian trait, and, once again, are free to do so or not.


This sums up my church point, never truer words were spoken... if the Vatican actually cared about the poor, they have enough money to do it many times over.
YouTube - Sell The Vatican, Feed The World (HD, Official) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bObItmxAGc)
And this says it all much better than I
YouTube - Best of Bill Maher on Religion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmUvhKr9SPk)
I was not trying to start a fight, I thought my experience would be helpful but I have no respect for "chuch folk"

I'm good with that. Although I've heard that men desire respect the way women desire love.
As for selling all their goods and donating it to the poor?What a concept! Those churchy guys claim that all that old crap they have laying around bring "immeasurable" comfort to the poor. And why should they be urged to sell if one does not believe in such? One may say, "Screw the poor. What they ever do for me?" as a non-believer. And then deny that we, as a nation, have no use for Christianity in the public square! Makes me chuckle, prior to getting sick. Anyway, I've made my confession and I can't see how anyone can reach out without some crazy belief structure that religion offers. Though I've met some that, I believe, have absolutely not an inkling of a "religious bone" in their body. And I can dig that too. All kinds in the world; makes it fun! Thanks and bye.

[Nomad]

First, it only helps if you love Jesus, Our Lord and Savior, but you don't have to. Truth is there are times I hate Him and KNOW that if around I would nail Him to the Cross AGAIN.

I think Jesus is a great role model and wish we all followed the Golden Rule. I believe he existed but more in the fashion of Ghandi and MLK Jr, then evil men twisted the story to their benefit. He was more of a political activist angry at the corrupt Jewish Authorities. Speaking of Ghandi, "I like your Christ. I do not like your christians. They are so unlike your Christ"

And what ever in the world could you be angry at him for? He's been dead over 2000 years? And to think of a fellow political activist nailed to a cross for sticking up for the poor and needy makes me think I should jump up right now because I am about to hurl... what a horrible thing to happen, at least MLK Jr was shot and it was over quuickly.

Oh, sorry I do want to point out the recent event of nine christian militia members arrested this weekend for plotting to kill a police officer so that they could get even more at his funeral. WWJD? They believe they are fighting the anti christ. And do you not know that Eric Prince is highly religious and considers Iraq a Holy War, sending thousands who feel the same. I really do not want to go on... I find talking to people who believe in talking snakes and men living in bellies of whales as to be so thick headed and stubborn that it is impossible to have a logical arguement, except one more that reallly reallly bothered me... that ignorant jerk who shot Dr. Tiller in his own church then pointed his gun at someone else in order to escape.... all in the name of religion. Pro life, more like pro fetus, they could care less after they leave the womb, they just want them to have to go off and die at 18 fighting sensless wars. and to too many there, a Holy War.

[LenInSebastopol]

I think Jesus is a great role model and wish we all followed the Golden Rule. I believe he existed but more in the fashion of Ghandi and MLK Jr, then evil men twisted the story to their benefit.

Can't agree again, but will let it go after this letter (I hope). JC's a lousy role model and a fool, if you don't believe. There could be none worse to emulate. It's an either/or issues. Come on now, one doesn't and can't 'love your enemy' and all that crap. Everybody knows that, and most practice it, so it is 'natural'!


He was more of a political activist angry at the corrupt Jewish Authorities. Speaking of Ghandi, "I like your Christ. I do not like your christians. They are so unlike your Christ"

Ya know, I've read that before and for those of a political bent, it is so, but then those folks miss the point. That area, as well as so many others, had young kooks coming out of the woodwork do that "I'll save you" thing.
Yeah, Ghandi's cool, but in the end the politics of the issue is that the he would be smashed by so many tanks running over him and his ilk, much like the early Christians, except he appealed to a nation that followed some Christian ideals at the time. So it worked for him at that time.



And what ever in the world could you be angry at him for? He's been dead over 2000 years? And to think of a fellow political activist nailed to a cross for sticking up for the poor and needy makes me think I should jump up right now because I am about to hurl... what a horrible thing to happen, at least MLK Jr was shot and it was over quuickly.

You made my point. Either He was a total loon and as nutty as a fruitcake or.....one simply doesn't go willingly to die for the poor.....one hurls, or sweats blood or the like.


Oh, sorry I do want to point out the recent event of nine christian militia members arrested this weekend for plotting to kill a police officer so that they could get even more at his funeral. WWJD? They believe they are fighting the anti christ. And do you not know that Eric Prince is highly religious and considers Iraq a Holy War, sending thousands who feel the same. I really do not want to go on... I find talking to people who believe in talking snakes and men living in bellies of whales as to be so thick headed and stubborn that it is impossible to have a logical arguement, except one more that reallly reallly bothered me... that ignorant jerk who shot Dr. Tiller in his own church then pointed his gun at someone else in order to escape.... all in the name of religion. Pro life, more like pro fetus, they could care less after they leave the womb, they just want them to have to go off and die at 18 fighting sensless wars. and to too many there, a Holy War.

Those 9, all milk drinkers, therefore all milk drinkers are nutty militia......don't be a "tool" of the media.
Yeah, they wouldn't even be allowed in Wal Mart let alone a church simply because they call themselves 'christian'. But wow! some in the media hit that button again and again and it got a rise. That SOB who shot that MD and claims it 'in the name of' is simply an SOB saying words. Are you going to try and "understand" a crazy man? When you do, it's time for some serious meds.
As for the talking snakes and guys in big fish's belly, it's kind of like the difference between singing and reading. Some are poems, some songs, some straight words. You choose. They did not write then for deconstructive analysis as it was a whole different mind set then.
You are right, I am stubborn and thick headed so get the last shot in and we'll be pleasantly done with this.
Thanks for the exchange and NOOOOOW, back to the flame wars!

Wait, as I munched on this mornings porridge...well, I felt I needed to write the following about religion: the chief purpose of religion is not to serve public life.
Religion that is captive to public life is of little public use. Such captivity produces politicized religion and religionized politics and the results of same, as noted in history & current news like those 9 knuckleheads, is tragedy for both religion and public discussion. Religion best serves public life by relavatizing the importance of public life, especially of public life understood as politics.
More could be written but I felt it had to be said. Actually if it were not so boring or antithetic to Wacco Land it should be it's own thread: Religion & Politics Serving What or Who?

[podfish]

i'd have just clicked 'gratitude' but it doesn't allow for qualification. I really liked your critique of the claim we all share a "community". I don't think I'd go the rest of the way with you, though...


... we are not a community. We talk that talk but ....

[babaruss]

You make some really fine points here about the desire for power being a greater corrosive force than that of religions.
I suppose it could be said that religion is pretty much a power game too.
Then again it could just be ignorance at it's best/worse depending.
Since I did not wish to spend the rest of my life pissing and moaning about the failings and abuses of such entities, I determined that what I needed do was become responsible for my own belief system (if it can possibly be called a 'system').
Since that small thought entered my rage filed head life has become increasingly easier for me.
I do not worry about what the other man is doing, as I am powerless to change him. I have only the ability to check my own motives for what I am doing and if they are good then that's all I care about.
Self correction, and self accountability work for me today.
This keeps everybody else off my radar...and I ignore them completely when their 'radar' is on me.
Baba



Disagreement is what we all come here for, almost. But I would beg to differ on the technicality of "more people have bee killed in the name of" as a minor point, it was those folks in the last century that killed more folks in the name of their dogma, socialism, than all religions combined. There were just more folks to kill around then and so they went out in the name of their "religion" or untested hypothetical belief structure and with high tech killed a bunch. Pol Pot only got 3M, Adolph was the piker with only 12M, but Uncle Joe got about 40M and Chairman Mousy Dung got about 70M, so all told about 165 million folks died in less that 100 years! And from what? You can successfully argue that it wasn't "religion" and you would be right; it is only MAN and the insatiable desire for power and control, no matter if one calls it "religion" or "politics"; which, for me, removes the "religion killed more...than...." because if there was NO religion there would still be man and his desire to dominate others. At least that is my petty belief.
I also disagree that religion was "formed to control the masses", only because it is half true. It IS used to control masses of folks, no doubt and that serves a function that has yet to be met by another social structure, but that is not WHY it is here. As some old dead French guy once put it, but not in English, "There's a God size whole in every man's soul" or was it heart? Ah, you know those French and their fries! In any case others come along and exploit folks in the name of "......" and so folks relinquish their stuff. Don't ask me as I don't know why folks do, but it is probably out of fear or love, two primary motivators for human types.



Ya know, Newton once said something about the whole universe being off about a 1/4" and you may prove him true. First, it only helps if you love Jesus, Our Lord and Savior, but you don't have to. Truth is there are times I hate Him and KNOW that if around I would nail Him to the Cross AGAIN. But then we all have our issues. So, you are free to be ambivalent, or not, but you don't have to even believe in Him. Hate to be so dismissive but we are talking serious stuff here. As for the strings being attached...like all relationships, there are and, like all, you are still free.



It appears that you hold all religions and belief structures as "equal", as in yours, mine, all the same. Not so...you mentioned fairies and the belief structure in them does not yield the same as, say, Judaism. And I say that here in Wacco Land where we are thick with their belief in such! But I say that with some conviction and opinion; some systems are more accountable and offer more than others. In your above claim it appears not to be so. I see you admire Native Americans and for what I may never understand. We were a stone age people, very cruel to other tribes, in the main, and some of us ate our fellow men.....although no tribe on the planet can deny such an action for themselves. As for conquering and destroying, that is the nature of the beast, as stated above, and religion is simply the guise in which it has traveled. Without it men are even beastlier!



And I am sorry that you still believe that there are folks that are not hypocritical whether involved in a religion or not. Sad truth is, I've found folks to be not very well in most of those areas; religion just adds another more permeable and transparent layer. I've found folks to be hypocrites and the truth is, for me, there was only One that wasn't and we couldn't stand it so we crucified Him.




Miscommunication: I do not have a 14 year old. I am sorry if I misstated that, but I believe I was responding to a mother who does have one. It was probably poor typing on my part.
As for your parents, if you have children you can easily realize that worry is a major hobby and concern for them; their expressions of love may have twisted you or they may have expressed it in a twisted way, but behind it was just that: concern for theirs and not to make the errors they made. Is that so bad? Forgiveness is a Christian trait, and, once again, are free to do so or not.



I'm good with that. Although I've heard that men desire respect the way women desire love.
As for selling all their goods and donating it to the poor?What a concept! Those churchy guys claim that all that old crap they have laying around bring "immeasurable" comfort to the poor. And why should they be urged to sell if one does not believe in such? One may say, "Screw the poor. What they ever do for me?" as a non-believer. And then deny that we, as a nation, have no use for Christianity in the public square! Makes me chuckle, prior to getting sick. Anyway, I've made my confession and I can't see how anyone can reach out without some crazy belief structure that religion offers. Though I've met some that, I believe, have absolutely not an inkling of a "religious bone" in their body. And I can dig that too. All kinds in the world; makes it fun! Thanks and bye.

[LenInSebastopol]

I appreciate the difficulty you went through to achieve your maturity and personal satisfaction in knowing how one may become truly responsible. I really do and I applaud you as many folks never make it that far and continue to blame others for their own "victimization".
That is not what I am writing about though.
Many view, incorrectly, that 'religion is power game' and come to conclusions that invalidate what is the most important factor in a public square, and this is the prioritization of affairs of people in a community. While it may not answer, "What is most important" or "What is the chief end of man", it does place a fixed point of reference from which we all may proceed. Authentic religion keeps the political enterprise humble by reminding it that it is not the first thing. By directing us to the ultimate, religion defines the limits of the penultimate. By illumining our highest purpose, all lesser purposes are brought under transcendent judgment. We may come to Hard Core drinking coffee, chewing it on about Timmy's pitching or the water shed, but we know and feel those are not the end of all life and being. The highest purpose can be variously defined but believing folks, even 'organized' ones like Jews, Muslims & Christians, might agree on an answer to the above question, "Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him for ever". Try improving on that! Temporal tasks are best conducted in the light of eternal destiny. Religion points us to the last things, framing the final direction that informs our decisions about life, both personal and public. The main service of religion is to teach us that the first things are the last things. So when one closes their door, seek their God, and returns to the public square finding like minded folks, there are clearly grounded points we may launch discussions from in a manner that is civil due to relationships developed with The Other and in relation to like minded folks. Absent that, chaos. Or worse yet, folks 'politicizing' religion, which is only good for the destruction of both politics, religion, and the social setting of how folks relate.
Phew, glad I got that off my chest!


I suppose it could be said that religion is pretty much a power game too.
Then again it could just be ignorance at it's best/worse depending.Since I did not wish to spend the rest of my life pissing and moaning about the failings and abuses of such entities, I determined that what I needed do was become responsible for my own belief system (if it can possibly be called a 'system').
Since that small thought entered my rage filed head life has become increasingly easier for me.
I do not worry about what the other man is doing, as I am powerless to change him. I have only the ability to check my own motives for what I am doing and if they are good then that's all I care about.
Self correction, and self accountability work for me today.Baba

[Cheingrand]

That's saying something all right.


I appreciate the difficulty you went through to achieve your maturity and personal satisfaction in knowing how one may become truly responsible. I really do and I applaud you as many folks never make it that far and continue to blame others for their own "victimization".
That is not what I am writing about though.
Many view, incorrectly, that 'religion is power game' and come to conclusions that invalidate what is the most important factor in a public square, and this is the prioritization of affairs of people in a community. While it may not answer, "What is most important" or "What is the chief end of man", it does place a fixed point of reference from which we all may proceed. Authentic religion keeps the political enterprise humble by reminding it that it is not the first thing. By directing us to the ultimate, religion defines the limits of the penultimate. By illumining our highest purpose, all lesser purposes are brought under transcendent judgment. We may come to Hard Core drinking coffee, chewing it on about Timmy's pitching or the water shed, but we know and feel those are not the end of all life and being. The highest purpose can be variously defined but believing folks, even 'organized' ones like Jews, Muslims & Christians, might agree on an answer to the above question, "Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him for ever". Try improving on that! Temporal tasks are best conducted in the light of eternal destiny. Religion points us to the last things, framing the final direction that informs our decisions about life, both personal and public. The main service of religion is to teach us that the first things are the last things. So when one closes their door, seek their God, and returns to the public square finding like minded folks, there are clearly grounded points we may launch discussions from in a manner that is civil due to relationships developed with The Other and in relation to like minded folks. Absent that, chaos. Or worse yet, folks 'politicizing' religion, which is only good for the destruction of both politics, religion, and the social setting of how folks relate.
Phew, glad I got that off my chest!

[babaruss]

I guess we really are here to disagree because I do...at least as far as the value of religion is concerned.
The teacher Yesu Ben Yusef aka Jesus the Christ taught something entirely different that what his followers believe today.
And he was crucified for disturbing the status quo, not for helping the poor.
The priesthood was making a fat living off of the guilt it instilled in the ignorant people of that time. Yesu upset the apple cart (along with the money changers table). He was teaching that man had unfettered access to God, and that meant the priesthood was not needed. This is the only reason he was crucified......being nailed up was for rebels, and shit disturbers. The thieves, murderers, and the rest were simply killed, and tossed into a ditch for the dogs to eat.
Everything this person taught was turned completely around by those who
built a church in his (altered) name.
The best aspect of his teaching was that we are responsible for our own choices....if we know something that we are doing is wrong then we have 'sinned'. "If to you it is a wrong....then to you it is a sin". Sin mean pretty much that someone wasn't living up to his/her highest potential. That particular failing did not require forgiveness, it only required changing one's attitude/action/behavior.
All of this is a far cry from the atonement, sacrifice, and what have you that organized religion demands of us.
Mankind is constantly evolving. and from where I sit there is no way possible to know where this will all lead. Our technological evolutionary process is far ahead of our spiritual/emotional evolution.
I can agree that we all need a target....something at which to aim ourselves....I am just uncertain if I want to subscribe to group think to determine my way.
I think I got too caught up here, and may not have even come close to responding to what you have written
Baba






I appreciate the difficulty you went through to achieve your maturity and personal satisfaction in knowing how one may become truly responsible. I really do and I applaud you as many folks never make it that far and continue to blame others for their own "victimization".
That is not what I am writing about though.
Many view, incorrectly, that 'religion is power game' and come to conclusions that invalidate what is the most important factor in a public square, and this is the prioritization of affairs of people in a community. While it may not answer, "What is most important" or "What is the chief end of man", it does place a fixed point of reference from which we all may proceed. Authentic religion keeps the political enterprise humble by reminding it that it is not the first thing. By directing us to the ultimate, religion defines the limits of the penultimate. By illumining our highest purpose, all lesser purposes are brought under transcendent judgment. We may come to Hard Core drinking coffee, chewing it on about Timmy's pitching or the water shed, but we know and feel those are not the end of all life and being. The highest purpose can be variously defined but believing folks, even 'organized' ones like Jews, Muslims & Christians, might agree on an answer to the above question, "Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him for ever". Try improving on that! Temporal tasks are best conducted in the light of eternal destiny. Religion points us to the last things, framing the final direction that informs our decisions about life, both personal and public. The main service of religion is to teach us that the first things are the last things. So when one closes their door, seek their God, and returns to the public square finding like minded folks, there are clearly grounded points we may launch discussions from in a manner that is civil due to relationships developed with The Other and in relation to like minded folks. Absent that, chaos. Or worse yet, folks 'politicizing' religion, which is only good for the destruction of both politics, religion, and the social setting of how folks relate.
Phew, glad I got that off my chest!

[Nomad]

Ok, now you are just messing with me unless you went to an even more whacked out church than catholic, like in TX or something... evangical maybe?

We agree that religion should not control publiv life 100% but you scare me. Giving the shirt off your back for a total stranger? Helping the needy? tending to the sick? Fighting for the rights of the povern striken majority? These are to be hated? Seriously? And you are completely missing the point, Jesus was pointing out the hypocrisy of the Jewish Leaders, he was a political activist, he had absolutely no intention of changing the religion except to get the corrupt, much like Bush & CO out of his land.... then what the messed up part is 200 years later bits and fragments, no one really knows because of mainly spoken word, but whomever he really was has nothing to do with virgins or angels or ascending to heaven or all the stuff and holidays stolen from pagen's.

Seriously, are you just having a good laugh at me? I know people who are that bored. Or if not, I'm scared. Honestly, you sound like a sociopath.


Here is a perfect kid example.... remember the phone game when we all sat in a circle then laughed when the message was completely screwed up when it got back around? Think of 200 years between what best historians recon if he did live and when that evil Paul took it and made himself head of a church. Or was it Peter? Who cares.. want to be rich? Start a church.

[Nomad]

I do not worry about what the other man is doing, as I am powerless to change him. I have only the ability to check my own motives for what I am doing and if they are good then that's all I care about.

Well, if you are powerless I am glad that Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Susan B. Anthony, MLK Jr, Ghandi, Nelson Mendela, etc. did not feel the same.

This is why we will fall as did Rome. Will you be fiddling too? Or will you stand up for what you believe in and protect those who cannot protect themselves. Or are you a survival of the fittest?

[Nomad]

I just remembered your odd socialism comment. I do not think anyone understands the definition of socialism, at least a certain generation who think cold war ways, I think of Holland and Sweden, and I guess if we actually did care for one another and had adopted a single payer plan and you think that is socialism, then add Canada, England, Franse, do not make me go on... Marxism at it's purest is beautiful but just as with everything when evil men get control and brainwash with propaganda and fear, it turns into the Soviet Union and China.

Wait a minute... don't we owe China, those (I thought Communists, but sure let's lump China with Sweden) Socialists a lot of money? LIke a lot? Like I mean a whole lot? Hope they're Socialist, not Communist when they take us over. But they won't, they just want us to keep our nose in our own business just like the rest of the world wishes.

[Nomad]

It appears that you hold all religions and belief structures as "equal", as in yours, mine, all the same. Not so...you mentioned fairies and the belief structure in them does not yield the same as, say, Judaism. And I say that here in Wacco Land where we are thick with their belief in such! But I say that with some conviction and opinion; some systems are more accountable and offer more than others. In your above claim it appears not to be so. I see you admire Native Americans and for what I may never understand. We were a stone age people, very cruel to other tribes, in the main, and some of us ate our fellow men.....although no tribe on the planet can deny such an action for themselves. As for conquering and destroying, that is the nature of the beast, as stated above, and religion is simply the guise in which it has traveled. Without it men are even beastlier!


Did you just try to say the Old Testament is not full of fairy tales? So Eve ate an apple a snake, really the Devil gave her and now we are all banned? And then they have two sons, one kills the other and I get lost unless Able slept with his Mom? Oh well. Thenskip ahead, Noah puts two of EVERY living species on a boat and everyone but that God fearing Noah and his family and millions of bugs, reptiles, animals, bacteria, all lived happily ever after.. ugh, not incest again?! Then god wanted his people free and sent plagues and killed first born sons. uh oh, now I am really scared... oh, Moses parted the Red Sea, sweet! maybe this god isn't so bad after all, oh no, 40 years wandering in the desert, oh yeah, god did rain manna or whatever from the sky.

Don't make me go on.

There are a few exceptions to the rule. Buddists as far as my knowledgde have kept true to love and kindness and peace.

:"Life is like a ride at an amusemnent park and when you choose to go on it you think it is real; that is how powerful our minds are. And it goes up and down and round and round and has thrills and chills and is very brightly colored and very loud and we think it is fun at first.
But some have been on this ride for a while and start to ask 'is this real or is this is just a ride?' and others who remember and come back to us and say 'Don't be afraid ever, because it is just a ride.' And we kill these people....

But we can change this ride whenever we want. It is a choice. A choice between fear and love.The Eyes of Fear want you to buy guns and put bigger locks on our doors and the Eyes of Love want us to be one.

This is what we can do to change the world: Take all that money we spend on defense and war and feed, clothe and educate the entire world, leaving not one person out, which it could many times over, and we can explore space together! in Peace and Love" Bill Hicks, RIP

Religion uses Fear and Guilt to control the masses to do almost anything for their version of god.

The Native Americans deserved what they got because they were barbarians.... hmmmm seems like the exact propaganda that caused the massacre. And unless I've got my history wrong, quite a few of those sacrificed chose so willingly, but our Puritans, the rightous christians, burned woman at the stake on hearsay... nice. I mourn that you believe the white folk version of history instead of celebrate the good parts of your heritage, which in my opinion if left alone this continent would not be a major cause of our planet's and very likely the human race's demise from how we have mistreated her. And who is more barbarian, those defending their homes with bows and arrows or those who weild weapons of far greater power, and diseases they can send in blankets, and lie after lie after lie until your ancestors where forced upon the worst land in the country and as we speak are still being persecuted and some forced to leave again now that it turns out some of this land IS valuable, it has Natural Gas! Kick those barbarians off our Natural Gas Land!
Go ahead, but could you put them back in charge of making sure we have enough buffalo and salmon and do not rape the precious Earth that is the only thing we have for survival. Or do you have your Moon Rocket already? Mine's on backorder.

[Nomad]

Authentic religion keeps the political enterprise humble by reminding it that it is not the first thing. By directing us to the ultimate, religion defines the limits of the penultimate. By illumining our highest purpose, all lesser purposes are brought under transcendent judgment. We may come to Hard Core drinking coffee, chewing it on about Timmy's pitching or the water shed, but we know and feel those are not the end of all life and being. The highest purpose can be variously defined but believing folks, even 'organized' ones like Jews, Muslims & Christians, might agree on an answer to the above question, "Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy Him for ever". Try improving on that! Temporal tasks are best conducted in the light of eternal destiny. Religion points us to the last things, framing the final direction that informs our decisions about life, both personal and public. The main service of religion is to teach us that the first things are the last things. So when one closes their door, seek their God, and returns to the public square finding like minded folks, there are clearly grounded points we may launch discussions from in a manner that is civil due to relationships developed with The Other and in relation to like minded folks. Absent that, chaos. Or worse yet, folks 'politicizing' religion, which is only good for the destruction of both politics, religion, and the social setting of how folks relate.

Have you been in a coma the past decade? Was not the the Religious Right a major power of Bush & CO? I remember very clearly that hypocrite saying he was a christian and god this and god that and oh, my absolute favorite, he told Bush to invade Iraq. Pretty darn cool, god finally came back for a great reason, to send our sons and husbands off to die for what? Oil? A Holy War? Or did you miss the whole WMD thing and Sadam was connected to 911 was a lie? Do you watch FOX? That would explain it.

Religion keeps politics in check? I do not want that country. I want the one that separated church and state. Where did it go? Go to freaking Israel or Iran if you want religion running your government. I'd rather elect sane people, although it is impossible it seems without saying you go to church. Most of logical folk are hoping Obama IS lying about being religious since he would never have gotten elected otherwise. Why should we even know or care what/where/ and with whom they spend their Sundays or Fridays or Ramadan or whatever? I just want them to be honest, fair and uphold our Constitution and try their very best to improve our country, not ruin it and every other it touches.
Where in the world is your logic? Or do you close your door so often to seek god you miss what is going on in reality?


* I really wanted to just write I've been observing the square more frequently and all I see of kids mingling is flirting and laughing... but I try not to stare because then they're not going to do the deal.... and it hit me.

So is this business person saying that as she walks by they don't even care and do the deal right in front of her? If so, wow, work on your educational system, not the square because these are some dumb drug dealing kids!. And if they are, why don't you walk over to them and make a citizen's arrest?

But still, after being made so aware of this problem... I see kids hanging out much like I used to in what I think they/we are lucky to have, a beautiful square. That is it. Total objectivitity. Was hoping to score, but guess waws misinformed once again.

Anyone else know where I can get pills?

[babaruss]

I think in order to push your personal belief system here ....you simply chose not to hear what was being said.
I was stating my truth...which is, and remains..'I am powerless to change others'. This does not mean that others may not change as a result of what someone does, or says, but rather it means it is not for me to set out trying to change the world. It is enough for me to change those aspects of me which are damaging to myself, and others.
I've been involved with all manner of attempts to bring about change, such as voter registration in the deep south, picketing stores which refused to treat blacks equally, participated in the war resisters league when such things were not only unfashionable, but down right dangerous. I could blow smoke here about all manner of issues, but what would be the point.
I am responsible for what I do, and I am responsible for the consequences of not only what I do, but what I don't do as well.
There are no heros in my book. All the people you named were seriously flawed individuals who managed despite their many flaws to bring about awareness, and through that awareness some change. But then we all do that to some extent don't we ?
I am content (at the juncture in my life) to pay attention to my choices, and actions, without trying to guilt trip, or shame, those who have differing values.
And since you don't know me, you have not a clue what I do with my life...who I help, or who I don't. You have not they slightest understanding of me, so it seems a bit strange that you'd place a fiddle in my hands while Rome burned. Maybe there's a hoe in my hand, and I'm gardening, and sharing my bounty with those unable to grow food.
Or perhaps there's a steering wheel beneath my hands, and I'm taking little old ladies shopping, or a local societal reject to the detox center.
There are million different ways live life which might bring about change, or make the loads of others lighter.
Pursue your dream of a better world my friend...please do.
But in that pursuit perhaps it may prove beneficial for you to drop the idea that you know what is best for others, because that is how religious people have been thinking for thousands of years...and clearly it's not working.
Baba






I do not worry about what the other man is doing, as I am powerless to change him. I have only the ability to check my own motives for what I am doing and if they are good then that's all I care about.

Well, if you are powerless I am glad that Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Susan B. Anthony, MLK Jr, Ghandi, Nelson Mendela, etc. did not feel the same.

This is why we will fall as did Rome. Will you be fiddling too? Or will you stand up for what you believe in and protect those who cannot protect themselves. Or are you a survival of the fittest?

[LenInSebastopol]

I guess we really are here to disagree because I do...at least as far as the value of religion is concerned.
The teacher Yesu Ben Yusef aka Jesus the Christ taught something entirely different that what his followers believe today.
And he was crucified for disturbing the status quo, not for helping the poor.

The value of religion in the public square has been explained in the original post. The value of religion in one's personal life is incalculable, so I don't understand how we may disagree since we've not discussed it at all, at least our personal beliefs. If you find little or no value in your life, then the issue is moot. If you find value and you find like minded people then great. I pray you don't bring your religion to the square in order to make it political, nor follow the media when they do the same. The clear values you derive from your religion should be expressed in a public forum, with the all the civility one may muster in the noisy place we often find.
I am always amazed at what everyone thinks about Jesus, especially in a progressive forum! Folks are so adamant they KNOW what He was doing here, but they never get to how they know. Yes, I understand they read some OTHER GUY'S book about Jesus and it too often supports their own prejudged approaches. I suppose I should be happy that they are dealing with The Man, as most have since the beginning, but I get worried about the distortion and ends to such reasoning.



The priesthood was making a fat living off of the guilt it instilled in the ignorant people of that time. Yesu upset the apple cart (along with the money changers table). He was teaching that man had unfettered access to God, and that meant the priesthood was not needed. This is the only reason he was crucified......being nailed up was for rebels, and shit disturbers. The thieves, murderers, and the rest were simply killed, and tossed into a ditch for the dogs to eat. Everything this person taught was turned completely around by those who built a church in his (altered) name.

Your last sentence is interesting in that every church reformer has said the same thing! Your preceding summation of the history could be refined and edited as there are source documents that view it in quiet a different light.



The best aspect of his teaching was that we are responsible for our own choices....if we know something that we are doing is wrong then we have 'sinned'. "If to you it is a wrong....then to you it is a sin". Sin mean pretty much that someone wasn't living up to his/her highest potential. That particular failing did not require forgiveness, it only required changing one's attitude/action/behavior.
All of this is a far cry from the atonement, sacrifice, and what have you that organized religion demands of us.

The idea of sin was a bit more complicated than the above. If you were an arrow maker and your arrows went sideways during a battle, it was a public sin and you had to "make good". The above characteristics indicate there were "private" sins so "if something was wrong to you" then....well, there was no such thing.....although that is a current belief structure now and it is cast upon those ancient Jews. As I understand it all 678 of those laws were refinements on how they could "live" with God in an exclusive relationship. There was no "your own thing".


Mankind is constantly evolving. and from where I sit there is no way possible to know where this will all lead. Our technological evolutionary process is far ahead of our spiritual/emotional evolution. I can agree that we all need a target....something at which to aim ourselves....I am just uncertain if I want to subscribe to group think to determine my way. I think I got too caught up here, and may not have even come close to responding to what you have written
Baba

I can only wish I see the evolution you find. I look at about 8K years of what folks have been doing and see all to little evidence. While the wart at our top knot may have become more convoluted the basal processes are still rooted in some sort of primal mammalian, or even reptilian responses to each other as well as our environment. We not only struggle with what we think, but what we read, write, and find in others as well as ourselves.
Besides, it's way late for getting up this Easter Day. Hope yours was joyous as well.

[LenInSebastopol]

I find most all '-ims' in their purest forms to be beautiful.
Almost rapturous in their final stage, so doesn't that strike you as more than coincidental?
Unfortunately I also find all men to have a touch of the 'evil' in them, and believe that the more power they get the more 'evil' they become, or is it the more than can just effect others in their power? Such is the case with drugs for sure!


I just remembered your odd socialism comment. I do not think anyone understands the definition of socialism, at least a certain generation who think cold war ways, I think of Holland and Sweden, and I guess if we actually did care for one another and had adopted a single payer plan and you think that is socialism, then add Canada, England, Franse, do not make me go on... Marxism at it's purest is beautiful but just as with everything when evil men get control and brainwash with propaganda and fear, it turns into the Soviet Union and China.

Wait a minute... don't we owe China, those (I thought Communists, but sure let's lump China with Sweden) Socialists a lot of money? LIke a lot? Like I mean a whole lot? Hope they're Socialist, not Communist when they take us over. But they won't, they just want us to keep our nose in our own business just like the rest of the world wishes.

[LenInSebastopol]

It appears that you hold all religions and belief structures as "equal", as in yours, mine, all the same. Not so...you mentioned fairies and the belief structure in them does not yield the same as, say, Judaism. And I say that here in Wacco Land where we are thick with their belief in such! But I say that with some conviction and opinion; some systems are more accountable and offer more than others. In your above claim it appears not to be so. I see you admire Native Americans and for what I may never understand. We were a stone age people, very cruel to other tribes, in the main, and some of us ate our fellow men.....although no tribe on the planet can deny such an action for themselves. As for conquering and destroying, that is the nature of the beast, as stated above, and religion is simply the guise in which it has traveled. Without it men are even beastlier!

Did you just try to say the Old Testament is not full of fairy tales? So Eve ate an apple a snake, really the Devil gave her and now we are all banned? And then they have two sons, one kills the other and I get lost unless Able slept with his Mom? Oh well. Thenskip ahead, Noah puts two of EVERY living species on a boat and everyone but that God fearing Noah and his family and millions of bugs, reptiles, animals, bacteria, all lived happily ever after.. ugh, not incest again?! Then god wanted his people free and sent plagues and killed first born sons. uh oh, now I am really scared... oh, Moses parted the Red Sea, sweet! maybe this god isn't so bad after all, oh no, 40 years wandering in the desert, oh yeah, god did rain manna or whatever from the sky. Don't make me go on.


OK, I won't make you go on and truthfully you've made a simple point and need not. However I it is clear you don't acknowledge the difference between the writing words and singing songs. Words or music. And then there's poetry! Some things are poems, some are songs, some are other words and you find one to be t'other and swear they are the same. Some things are allegory but you wish to distill and then throw that in one's face. Isn't that a what you call a straw man argument?


There are a few exceptions to the rule. Buddists as far as my knowledgde have kept true to love and kindness and peace.

Really? You ask me to believe that or are you positing that as a fact in the face of a culture that practices all manner of harm. Actually I should erase the above for mercy's sake. Please.


"Life is like a ride at an amusemnent park and when you choose to go on it you think it is real; that is how powerful our minds are. And it goes up and down and round and round and has thrills and chills and is very brightly colored and very loud and we think it is fun at first.
But some have been on this ride for a while and start to ask 'is this real or is this is just a ride?' and others who remember and come back to us and say 'Don't be afraid ever, because it is just a ride.' And we kill these people....
But we can change this ride whenever we want. It is a choice. A choice between fear and love.The Eyes of Fear want you to buy guns and put bigger locks on our doors and the Eyes of Love want us to be one.

Good analogy. As you have lived a long time and read much you know that, as an evolutionist, fear plays a primal part as there are things out there in the world that hurt our loved ones. Those matters include people as well. To love our enemy flies in the face of evolution. So where does one get off telling another to do so? To possibly be killed for....or in the name of.....



This is what we can do to change the world: Take all that money we spend on defense and war and feed, clothe and educate the entire world, leaving not one person out, which it could many times over, and we can explore space together! in Peace and Love" Bill Hicks, RIP

That sounds nice....and it will never get us where we wish to go....as the answer is not money. Nor is it food! As for education, well the most educated people in the world still do barbaric acts on others. And if you mean we are all 'educated' to think the way another person does then we give up our humanity, so that can't be the answer either. No. Unless you mean a change of heart for mankind, and that is not what I mean by 'education' as that cannot be 'taught'. Otherwise we kill more people until fear is the ruler again; that is fear of the 'strongman'.



Religion uses Fear and Guilt to control the masses to do almost anything for their version of god.

No. OTHER men use fear and guilt. Could it be akin to 'guns kill people'? No, guns are a means, it's people that kill people. And guns make it easier, just as religion makes it easier for men to rule over others; it is just more abstract than a gun.




The Native Americans deserved what they got because they were barbarians.... hmmmm seems like the exact propaganda that caused the massacre. And unless I've got my history wrong, quite a few of those sacrificed chose so willingly, but our Puritans, the rightous christians, burned woman at the stake on hearsay... nice.

I guess we read different histories? We got what we got because we were not as barbaric as the British that came; The aboriginal tribes of Mexico, Peru and most other places in this land were not as barbaric as the Spanish. Nor as techno savy. And those ancestors practiced their barbarity on their own women and children, but of course that is true world wide, and again, for all tribes. So don't feel like the Lone Ranger.


I mourn that you believe the white folk version of history instead of celebrate the good parts of your heritage, which in my opinion if left alone this continent would not be a major cause of our planet's and very likely the human race's demise from how we have mistreated her. And who is more barbarian, those defending their homes with bows and arrows or those who weild weapons of far greater power, and diseases they can send in blankets, and lie after lie after lie until your ancestors where forced upon the worst land in the country and as we speak are still being persecuted and some forced to leave again now that it turns out some of this land IS valuable, it has Natural Gas! Kick those barbarians off our Natural Gas Land!
Go ahead, but could you put them back in charge of making sure we have enough buffalo and salmon and do not rape the precious Earth that is the only thing we have for survival. Or do you have your Moon Rocket already? Mine's on backorder.

Sounding defensive, at least on my part, you really don't know what I celebrate or honor in the way of my heritage, so why disparage your own as well as castigate me? You derive some satisfaction in 'lording' your facts of your 'history' over me? You 'confess' your racial 'sins' and expect deliverance from such, or does this occur out of the madness and guilt you feel? If so then that is some other man's notions controlling you and in such a poor way. And then you claim that your race is ruining the planet, or at least it appears that way in these writing. Such self pride; no wonder there's racism and other stupidity. Hamlet lives! "What did I do wrong and why is this happening to me?". I think Barry named this thread and I am sorry you missed my initial point at the top. This sickness is affecting me more than the power that it really has. I'm outta here.

[babaruss]

I do not plan to take my belief system anywhere, and it's (for what it's worth) not a religion.
What difference does it make what I take from what ( I perceive it was that) Jesus taught ? My belief system is personal, my experience, and even my though process, is personal...unless I share a part of it...and even there I'm merely stating my take on things....not trying to win points, or converts
We evolve (IMHO) as individuals, and do so through the various things we experience in this process called life.
Some change, while other cling....the changing process varies from individual to individual...some make huge leaps, and other like me creep slowly along.
Societal evolution is probably really not evolution at all so much as monkey see, monkey do...that sort of stuff can change, or revert back in a fear laden heart beat.
Please don't try to lump me in with someone who just happened to read 'a book' and determine I know know the truth.
You have no idea what my sources of information are.
My take on what is going on in this world is my take on things period. It has as much value as your take on things.
I never claim that I am correct, nor insist that the only valid answers to any situation are the ones I hold....I merely state what I think something is about, and leave it at that.
You have a very not so sublte way of slamming people who you do not agree with...you almost seem to be saying you hold the answer, and we (I'm) wrong.
Not the nicest way to communicate with another...but if feeling all knowing and superior gets you through the day...o.k. by me !
I haven't a clue what the hell Jesus was doing here...I'm very clear he was not the son of God, nor a mesiah.
My daughter stakes her life on the belief that he was indeed the son of God and the messiah. I accept her belief as her right, and admire her for the courage of her conviction despite believing differently.
Unlike you..I have no intention of trying to demean someone who believes differently.
Baba





The value of religion in the public square has been explained in the original post. The value of religion in one's personal life is incalculable, so I don't understand how we may disagree since we've not discussed it at all, at least our personal beliefs. If you find little or no value in your life, then the issue is moot. If you find value and you find like minded people then great. I pray you don't bring your religion to the square in order to make it political, nor follow the media when they do the same. The clear values you derive from your religion should be expressed in a public forum, with the all the civility one may muster in the noisy place we often find.
I am always amazed at what everyone thinks about Jesus, especially in a progressive forum! Folks are so adamant they KNOW what He was doing here, but they never get to how they know. Yes, I understand they read some OTHER GUY'S book about Jesus and it too often supports their own prejudged approaches. I suppose I should be happy that they are dealing with The Man, as most have since the beginning, but I get worried about the distortion and ends to such reasoning.



Your last sentence is interesting in that every church reformer has said the same thing! Your preceding summation of the history could be refined and edited as there are source documents that view it in quiet a different light.



The idea of sin was a bit more complicated than the above. If you were an arrow maker and your arrows went sideways during a battle, it was a public sin and you had to "make good". The above characteristics indicate there were "private" sins so "if something was wrong to you" then....well, there was no such thing.....although that is a current belief structure now and it is cast upon those ancient Jews. As I understand it all 678 of those laws were refinements on how they could "live" with God in an exclusive relationship. There was no "your own thing".



I can only wish I see the evolution you find. I look at about 8K years of what folks have been doing and see all to little evidence. While the wart at our top knot may have become more convoluted the basal processes are still rooted in some sort of primal mammalian, or even reptilian responses to each other as well as our environment. We not only struggle with what we think, but what we read, write, and find in others as well as ourselves.
Besides, it's way late for getting up this Easter Day. Hope yours was joyous as well.

[LenInSebastopol]

I do not plan to take my belief system anywhere, and it's not a religion.
What difference does it make what I take from what ( I perceive it was that) Jesus taught ? My belief system is personal, my experience, and even my though process, is personal...unless I share a part of it...and even there I'm merely stating my take on things....not trying to win points, or converts

We agree on so much! One's personal belief need not be on the public square and should not ever be required to be on display, however many here wish it to be either for ridicule, contestation, distortion, or examination. That is not the purpose and against the Constitutional writings as there is something about "no religious test" however it is not the case!


We evolve (IMHO) as individuals, and do so through the various things we experience in this process called life.
Some change, while other cling....the changing process varies from individual to individual...some make huge leaps, and other like me creep slowly along.

As I understand evolution we don't agree here. We get older and we may get wiser when we work at our experience, but evolution is to loaded a word to use in this context. Certainly we stand on giants' shoulders when it comes to civilization but I cannot ascribe to any individual the meaning of 'evolution'.



Societal evolution is probably really not evolution at all so much as monkey see, monkey do...that sort of stuff can change, or revert back in a fear laden heart beat.
Please don't try to lump me in with someone who just happened to read 'a book' and determine I know know the truth. You have no idea what my sources of information are. My take on what is going on in this world is my take on things period. It has as much value as your take on things. I never claim that I am correct, nor insist that the only valid answers to any situation are the ones I hold....I merely state what I think something is about, and leave it at that.

I have always feared the notion of 'societal evolution' and had always felt school teachers twisting something onto me with this approach. While sexy in its discussion it called for appeal to an 'end ideal' with no evidence other than markers that are arbitrary. As a bio major I could not draw parallels to real evidence in the world I could lay my hands upon.
I apologize for appearing to trivialize your experience and knowledge in this exchange as that was not my intention. Brevity often appears curt and it is not my design in so doing. I know myself after reading a book I feel as though I 'know' something and usually blather on all too often.



You have a very not so sublte way of slamming people who you do not agree with...you almost seem to be saying you hold the answer, and we (I'm) wrong.
Not the nicest way to communicate with another...but if feeling all knowing and superior gets you through the day...o.k. by me !

Again, I apologize for doing what you describe. You are right. I do hold a position that I do know something, though what I cannot say. As a young man I read a few books on Zen by a guy named D.T. Suzuki and as I understood & incorporated it into my 'way' I proceeded thus: essentially it is that none may say what they know and all know what "it" is. That is, there are no words to describe experience, no ways to convey what one truly 'knows' and to try to do so is foolishness, in a Zenny kind of way. However such is the notion that initiated this exchange, that being one's experience, in a profound and private way, the expression and experience of their impression of God. One cannot bring either that experience nor God to the public square, but from that experience one may proceed to enter the public arena. Depending on one's values derived from that, the discussions are forthcoming.


I haven't a clue what the hell Jesus was doing here...I'm very clear he was not the son of God, nor a mesiah. My daughter stakes her life on the belief that he was indeed the son of God and the messiah. I accept her belief as her right, and admire her for the courage of her conviction despite believing differently. Unlike you..I have no intention of trying to demean someone who believes differently. Baba

If you don't know what Jesus was doing here, then how in hell can you know that The Man was not all that AND a bag of chips? Epistemology is a word I like and often wonder how DO we know what we know? And 'what do we know' is another game I enjoy playing with myself in these approaches.
Friend, I can only pray you listen to your daughter. If evolution has some meaning then she is more evolved than you! While it does take one's whole life to believe, as with your daughter, I find it is the case that many give their whole life to booze, dope, entertainment, -isms, sports and other such pursuits that take away from core values of what we are here for and the work that needs to be done.
It is rare around here to find those that do not demean the beliefs of others. There are several posts on this site that broach the issue, while some folks outright despise those that hold to beliefs that were once honored. Thanks for being one of the 'good guys'.

[LenInSebastopol]

I think in order to push your personal belief system here ....you simply chose not to hear what was being said. I was stating my truth...which is, and remains..'I am powerless to change others'. This does not mean that others may not change as a result of what someone does, or says, but rather it means it is not for me to set out trying to change the world. It is enough for me to change those aspects of me which are damaging to myself, and others.

This notion of 'truth' is to slippery for me, as it defies a definitional matter, that being there is only truth and all else is less so, meaning they are not the one truth. There are beliefs that can be tangential to the truth and we all hold those dearly but in so doing they are not the truth. Key word being "the". It's just all to often what we call 'the truth' or 'my truth' is an opinion and we all know such are like belly buttons, we all have one.
Granted, we cannot change another person but that is subject to matters contingent on issues that go on ad nauseam. For expediency we cannot go there. The fact you stated is the greatest: we can only work to change our selves. And may I add that's a full time job.


I am responsible for what I do, and I am responsible for the consequences of not only what I do, but what I don't do as well.
There are no heros in my book. All the people you named were seriously flawed individuals who managed despite their many flaws to bring about awareness, and through that awareness some change. But then we all do that to some extent don't we ?
I am content (at the juncture in my life) to pay attention to my choices, and actions, without trying to guilt trip, or shame, those who have differing values.

I am sorry that there are no heroes in your book. They serve as markers for our way to go. I am sure there are some as you did put your life on the line in the South, registering folks, picketing and pointing out injustices for Blacks back in the day when you could get a beat down. Maybe life has become jaded? but I am sure you find Schwitzer, Ghandi, King and others to be guiding lights. While there may be none perfect to emulate, and there is not one man that is, they do help.
It is good to know that shame is not the game, and as we do grow older we tend to think of our legacy and reflect. We realize to negate folks ain't the way so changing our behavior does become easier. It's great we made it thus far!



And since you don't know me, you have not a clue what I do with my life...who I help, or who I don't. You have not they slightest understanding of me, so it seems a bit strange that you'd place a fiddle in my hands while Rome burned. Maybe there's a hoe in my hand, and I'm gardening, and sharing my bounty with those unable to grow food.
Or perhaps there's a steering wheel beneath my hands, and I'm taking little old ladies shopping, or a local societal reject to the detox center.
There are million different ways live life which might bring about change, or make the loads of others lighter.
Pursue your dream of a better world my friend...please do.
But in that pursuit perhaps it may prove beneficial for you to drop the idea that you know what is best for others, because that is how religious people have been thinking for thousands of years...and clearly it's not working.
Baba

It is almost a genetic trait to want others to share in the good we find, in spite of the idea that there is a similar trait that has humans wage war and other politics. And all this in the stupid notion of 'superiority' such that we inflict what we think to be 'the best' on others so they see 'our way'. I apologize for giving that impression. And though I do not know you, I do recall what Erasmus once wrote, "Nothing human is estranged to me". I find comfort in knowing my brothers in such a way.

[babaruss]

I can't find reason to quibble with what you share here.
I will clarify one thing....the thing about having heroes is that these people are generally deemed heroes doing something which 'we' admire. Many of these self same 'heroes' can (and have done, I need add) do some of the vilest things imaginable. For me it is better to consider all people to be my teachers.
I can as easily be taught by liars, and cheats, as well as so called saints.
All people are fallible, and regardless of their personal accomplishments, I can't see elevating them beyond our own humanity.
Baba



This notion of 'truth' is to slippery for me, as it defies a definitional matter, that being there is only truth and all else is less so, meaning they are not the one truth. There are beliefs that can be tangential to the truth and we all hold those dearly but in so doing they are not the truth. Key word being "the". It's just all to often what we call 'the truth' or 'my truth' is an opinion and we all know such are like belly buttons, we all have one.
Granted, we cannot change another person but that is subject to matters contingent on issues that go on ad nauseam. For expediency we cannot go there. The fact you stated is the greatest: we can only work to change our selves. And may I add that's a full time job.



I am sorry that there are no heroes in your book. They serve as markers for our way to go. I am sure there are some as you did put your life on the line in the South, registering folks, picketing and pointing out injustices for Blacks back in the day when you could get a beat down. Maybe life has become jaded? but I am sure you find Schwitzer, Ghandi, King and others to be guiding lights. While there may be none perfect to emulate, and there is not one man that is, they do help.
It is good to know that shame is not the game, and as we do grow older we tend to think of our legacy and reflect. We realize to negate folks ain't the way so changing our behavior does become easier. It's great we made it thus far!



It is almost a genetic trait to want others to share in the good we find, in spite of the idea that there is a similar trait that has humans wage war and other politics. And all this in the stupid notion of 'superiority' such that we inflict what we think to be 'the best' on others so they see 'our way'. I apologize for giving that impression. And though I do not know you, I do recall what Erasmus once wrote, "Nothing human is estranged to me". I find comfort in knowing my brothers in such a way.