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someguy
02-12-2010, 02:08 PM
The substance of this post is only an excerpt from a much longer, more fascinating article that dives into the the history of universal health care systems and liberal policy in general. The article as a whole is an amazingly thoughtful, researched and thorough analysis of the dangers posed by current legislation that is in the senate. While I personally do not agree totally with the authors solutions, I did however gain a much better understanding of liberalism, conservatism, and the constant balance that must be maintained. But unfortunately, we have neo-liberalism and neo-conservatism which both serve the same interests but pretend to be against each other. Truly both our neo-parties are very liberal with their massive expansion of government here and abroad, as well as government control of more and more industries. But as we find out in the article, government control, no matter how many good intentions are fueling it, inevitably leads to suppression of creativity and innovation, as well as human sovereignty.

Keep in mind this guy is not some right-wing wacko, but rather he's an 'alternative' doctor who has a really awesome medical practice being threatened by this health care reform legislation.


Full article by Nicholas J. Gonzalez, M.D.
A Physician’s Perspective on the Dangers Of Government Health Care Reform (https://www.dr-gonzalez.com/healthcareJan2010.htm)

Why US Health Care Reform Will Fail

It is tragic, at least to me, to witness our President and the Democratic leadership in Congress foist a government controlled health care program on us without nary a second thought, as if history didn’t exist, as if the failed government-run health care programs around the world never happened. These failures did happen, they did and still do exist, and we need to learn from them. Government run health care in the US, however restricted at the onset, will grow as malignant bureaucracies always relentlessly grow, as Medicare and Medicaid grew (into bankruptcy of course), as Bush’s prescription drug benefit plan has already grown far beyond its original intended limited scope. Bureaucracies can do no less, they must grow, it is in their biology and genetic make up. And so the proposed government run health care will grow, it will fester, and it will fail, for the same reasons all socialist statist enterprises ultimately fail.

I thought it would be useful to summarize, simply, my predictions as to why government run health care will falter:

1. The various health care bills I have reviewed all make provision for that inevitable draconian centralized group of Washington medical experts who will decide, for each and every condition – in fact, if I read the bill correctly, for each and every patient – what diagnostic tests and what therapy the doctor can prescribe. In a sense, the various drafts of Democratic inspired health care in one way or another seek to put the state between the doctor and the patient. Tom Daschle, the unseated former Senator from South Dakota claims such a system is best for the “collective,” whatever the downside to individual patients and their doctors. As with most centralist experts, despite the lack of any scientific or medical training, Mr. Daschle sees nothing wrong with telling physicians actually in the health care trenches they must stop performing as individuals, stop making individual decisions, stop relying on their own experience, education, intelligence, instincts, but instead blindly the follow the dictates of centralized experts. Once again, such a proposed system, to its final detriment, would prohibit and penalize independent thinking and independent action, the hallmarks of good medicine in general and the hallmarks of American medicine to date.

2. Doctors would not only take their marching orders from the state, but would also work for the state, charged as it would be with doling out payments according to its own system of acceptable medical practice and price controls. This set-up, as it did in the Soviet Union, would further discourage creative thinking, initiative and good old fashioned hard work, since doctors would no longer work for themselves. And those doctors who work harder would not be paid more than those who work less.

3. Historically, whenever government intrudes into science or medicine, science and medicine become twisted into the tools of political agendas, only peripherally devoted to their more honorable responsibilities, i.e., the search for the truth and the service of the sick. We have seen that with Lysenkoism in the Soviet Union, eugenics in Nazi Germany, physicians use as evangelical missionaries for Castro’s Cuba. We see that currently in the United States with the global warming initiative and the various legislative proposals that seek to drastically curb mankind’s allegedly pernicious activity at enormous cost financially, and at enormous cost to our liberty. Global warming appears to suit a particular political agenda, which suits the environmental ends of non-scientists but increasingly – as we freeze through a particularly brutal winter – seems based not in scientific fact. With “health care reform”, inevitably politicians and the scientists they chose to consult will determine what doctors, and their patients can do, based on their ideas of what should be right regardless of the scientific fact or the consequences.

4. I have personally witnessed medical bureaucracy first hand, and trust me, it isn’t pretty. As many of you know, I have spent the past 12 years battling with the various medical bureaucracies at Columbia University, The National Cancer Institute, the National Institutes of health, and the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, as we tried to force them to run our government funded clinical study properly – to no avail. Although I explain the details more thoroughly on my website and in my upcoming book about this expensive and time consuming fiasco, simply put, we uncovered dishonesty, incompetence, indifference, and good old-fashioned laziness right up into the offices of at least one Director. Our clinical trial, as supervised by entire cadres of bureaucrats from these various institutions, deteriorated into the chaos of careless management and mismanagement, corruption, even fraud, with the lives of patients put at risk with total indifference as far as we can tell. These people shouldn’t be running anything, least of all health care. Bureaucratic scientific institutions seem to select too frequently for the incompetent and the lazy, those happy to do very little of anything for as long as possible and always at taxpayer expense. In our office we call this syndrome “welfare science” and the bureaucratic practitioners “welfare scientists.”

5. The proposed government controlled health care system will prove financially untenable, for the same reasons bureaucratically run, centralistic enterprises of whatever ilk are always financially untenable. The bureaucracy will itself, cancer that it is, consume enormous amounts of resources that go not to medical facilities such as hospitals, or to patient care, or to medical research. I have read that the Senate bill if passed would establish 17 new major government programs, each requiring large staffs, facilities, and expenditures that take money away from the actual purpose of health care reform, that is, health care.

6. Health care reform as currently proposed, will as most government programs punish good behavior, and reward bad – and ironically, will make us sicker. Those of us careful and intelligent about what we eat, those of us who exercise, who avoid noxious habits such as smoking, drug use, and excessive drinking and have little need for medical care will be taxed to pay for the very expensive medical treatments prescribed to those who could care less, who eat recklessly and behave recklessly, who smoke, drink, etc. I read recently that a full course of treatment for lung cancer – a mostly preventable disease - with surgery, radiation, and chemotherapy can cost upwards of a million dollars, though most standard treatments for the problem work poorly. I have read predictions that the cost of treating Americans with Type II diabetes, largely the result of poor dietary and lifestyle choices, will run in the tens of billions annually as its incidence continues to increase yearly. But as long as someone like the government pays the bill, little incentive exists to change habits or take personal responsibility for one’s health. The fallacy persists in the liberal-socialist-Marxist mind that sick people are helpless “victims,” in need of the all powerful State, which parent-like, will be there to take care of you, whatever the problem and regardless of previous self-destructive behavior. No one need change habits, or take responsibility, quite the opposite. Ironically, such an attitude shared by the bureaucrats and populace in the Soviet Union helped speed along the downward spiral of the nation’s health care system, as purely preventable diseases achieved epidemic proportions, straining medical resources to the breaking point.

7. If we all had to pay for our own health care directly, and not indirectly through third parties of whatever ilk, government or private, we would inevitably think twice about our life decisions, and we would be the healthier for it. After witnessing a few families going bankrupt paying for pretty much useless lung cancer treatment, many of us might think twice about lighting up. For most humans, there’s nothing like repercussions for bad decisions, particularly financial repercussions, to make our decision-making process better. I remember during the welfare reform of the mid-1990’s, opponents of the plan paid for television ads warning that if the legislation passed tightening requirements, grandma would end up on the street, or little Timmy would starve to death. Of course, after the reform initiative became law, smartly placing severe entry criteria and time limits on welfare, our grandmothers did not die on the street nor did Timmy or Tommy end up starving to death, as far as I know. Instead, with payments now limited and no longer indefinite, millions of healthy Americans, many of them young, got off their duff, went to work, and experienced the rewards, self-respect, and possibilities for their future only work can bring. The nation, and the former welfare recipients now in the work force, were and are the better for it.

8. If we had to pay for our own health care, we would become intelligent consumers, as intelligent as we are when we purchase a house, or a car, or a lawnmower. First of all, most sane citizens, if they had to pay themselves, would restrict unnecessary visits to the doctor that don’t require any major intervention. In England and in Canada, with their universal “free” health care programs, repeated unnecessary doctor consultations for minor complaints are helping to undermine the entire system. Then, most of us, again if we paid for health care ourselves directly at the point of service, would investigate the options, find out what treatment works best for whatever condition we might experience, which doctor has the best results, which tests give the most valuable information. We would stop being so passive as we are today when someone else foots the bill directly, invariably turning over all the decision-making to the doctor. Intelligent choices and intelligent consumption by the consumer in the marketplace would not only lead to better, not worse care, but as an added benefit, would inevitably bring prices down. For example, PET scans can cost, in New York where I practice, up to $5,000, all directly underwritten of course by the insurance companies, though we all inevitably bear the price. However, if patients themselves had to foot the bill at the point of service, they would balk at such an expense, forcing the radiologists to bring their fees for the test more in line with the actual value – less than $1,000, in fact, less than $500. If a patient with metastatic pancreatic cancer had to pay the $30,000 or more for surgery, the $30,000 or more for chemotherapy, the $20,000 or more for radiation – it certainly adds up – they might question whether the expense was worth it for treatments that in general do little of anything for the disease. Doctors, and drug companies, would have to compete for patients, and bring the costs to a more reasonable level that patients could immediately afford. But as long as it’s “free,” that is, paid for directly by insurance companies and only eventually paid for by all of us in indirect costs, patients don’t think twice about proceeding with an aggressive and outrageously expensive therapeutic plan that might give them a few extra months of life and much discomfort along the way.

9. Perhaps those in Washington believe that this time around “we’ll do it better.” But this argument is nonsensical, since government programs are never “done better,” they always turn out worse. Again, it’s in the inevitable nature of beast.

Health Care Reform and Alternative Medicine

Since the world categorizes what I do as a physician as “alternative” in nature, I thought it might be a productive exercise to discuss the various bills before Congress in terms of the specific dangers they might represent to health care practitioners whose paths diverge from the current standard of care. Since bigger government always means, except for the cherished elite, less freedom and less liberty, including for us doctors, all the bills as they exist represent a potential hazard to alternative medicine. In an earlier brief essay that currently circulates on the Internet, I wrote that I have been in touch with those who have studied the various bills, such as the Liberty Counsel in Washington DC. All the bills, whatever its proponents state about “competition” and “freedom to choose a doctor” have as an ultimate goal single payer, universal government mandated government controlled health care with an end to competition, and government regulation of all medicine and medical science.

All doctors who participate in the government program would be closely monitored by the centralized bureaucracy and its dictates about acceptable care. Possibly – and I say only possibly - physicians such as myself might be able to opt out of the centralized collectivist plan, but no one at present seems sure if this will actually, in practice, be allowed. If doctors can opt out, we would then operate on a cash only basis, with patients aware no insurance would cover the cost of the alternative nutritional therapy. That would be ok, since we would still have the freedom to practice medicine and think as we saw fit. But if the government plan requires all physicians to join the centralized health system, as the Senate version requires all Americans, under threat of jail time, buy insurance, then serious alternative medicine practitioners will need find another America, and another Plymouth rock. Hopefully, the situation won’t reach such a draconian turn, since the lives of so many hundreds of my patients depend on the availability of this therapy.

theindependenteye
02-12-2010, 05:03 PM
>>>But as we find out in the article, government control, no matter how many good intentions are fueling it, inevitably leads to suppression of creativity and innovation, as well as human sovereignty.
>>>Keep in mind this guy is not some right-wing wacko, but rather he's an 'alternative' doctor who has a really awesome medical practice being threatened by this health care reform legislation.

Ah, Someguy, really? Truly? Seriously?

Good to know he's not a right-wing wacko but rather an "alternative" wacko.

I don't dispute that there aren't some valid points embedded in there, but the fundamental tenets are, to me, quite bizarre.

I'm interested in knowing how the countless government-run "failed" health systems of other countries have managed nevertheless to result in health statistics that put the US to shame, and at far lower cost.

I'm interested in how "government control" is any more nefarious and stifling of innovation than corporate control, be it by insurance companies, drug companies, or commercial hospital conglomerates.

I'm interested in his echoing of John Mackey's notion that if we had to pay for every health care decision we made, we'd make better life choices. Over the course of my life, I've had (a) a hernia operation in my teens, resultant from I know not what: (b) a very rare pancreatic tumor that might have caused me institutionalization as a mental patient except for the fact that I was admitted free of charge as a "research patient" (because of its rarity) to excellent care; (c) a broken finger, my own fault, true, but I'm not sure that I'd have avoided it by considering its costs; (d) two children's births, assisted by insurance when we had only just enough money to pay for insurance (and yes, I admit, we could have avoided them - we were just too self-indulgent, I guess); (e) an umbilical hernia, not a fault of my lifestyle, that would have taken a deep bite in our savings if we weren't on Medicare, despite having paid thru the nose for medical insurance up to that point. And I have a chronic, hereditary kidney condition that at some point I might die from, which presumably I might have avoided if I hadn't been born, but at that point I really wasn't rationally considering the costs.

I've been lucky. It seems the alternative doctor would expect my friend Richard, who slipped on the porch and had to have two hip replacements, to shop around and make informed decisions on his way to the ER. Or Karen, Mary, and Pam, all undergoing chemotherapy, to "make a more informed decision" and thus lower costs.

I agree totally that people should take better care of themselves. I've never smoked, I drink in moderation, I get a lot of exercise, I eat a very healthy diet, and I look both ways before I cross the street. (I have to admit, true, that I haven't taken the best care of my teeth and have paid thru the nose for the last couple of years for this.) So is this guy telling me that I'm home free? That being on Medicare is being complicit with promoting bad habits, stifling medical innovation, all that?

Know what? If I had a diagnosis of cancer and didn't have the insurance I have now (which after all these many years of being vigorously buggered, I can actually afford), sure, I'd do what he suggests: I'd look carefully at all the options, I'd compare the costs, I'd see that the regimen prescribed to me by my oncologist would take all our savings, lose our house, and if I Googled an ad (maybe from this "alternative" practitioner) that a diet of grilled turnips could cure me, I might indeed make an informed decision that would reduce my health care costs and my burden to this planet.

Sorry for the vehemence. It's late afternoon, and I get kinda mean. I really can't see what you see in this guy. All that his writing raises in me is wondering whose check he's cashing.

Peace, joy, & nevertheless good health--
Conrad

someguy
02-12-2010, 05:46 PM
I'm interested in how "government control" is any more nefarious and stifling of innovation than corporate control, be it by insurance companies, drug companies, or commercial hospital conglomerates.



If you are interested in these ideas, then I would highly suggest reading the entire article. I realize it is very long, and that is why I only posted a tiny excerpt, but I think it would answer your questions in detail.

The way I see it, there may be a lot of corporate control, but people still have a choice. I can choose to buy insurance or not. I can choose to buy prescription drugs or not. The problem Dr. Gonzalez has with the health care legislation is that it could take away that choice. Right now, if I don't like what conventional medicine and the FDA have to offer, I can go see an alternative doctor (such as Dr. Gonzalez or Dr. Tom Cowan in San Francisco), and give my money to that person instead. In this business model, a good doctor can become successful.

In a government-controlled healthcare system, however, a government panel of 'experts' could decide what diagnostic tools and treatments a doctor could legally use, effectively banning anything outside of the mainstream medical establishment. This leads to a stifling of innovation. In the full article Dr. Gonzalez goes through the history of different universal healthcare systems and explains how this has happened every single time.

I just want to stress that reading the full article will answer your questions. Sorry my excerpt left you confused.

Thanks.

kpage9
02-13-2010, 01:01 AM
Someguy, let me be the first (maybe?) to point out the absurd condescension in your view that theindependenteye was confused.

Please please please recognize that you're running on fumes here. Health reform will not take away your freedom of choice. Please read the more moderate Republicans' web pages if you doubt this (and want to know the truth).


Lucky you, that you can pay cash for whatever health treatment your heart desires. The rest of us depend on bureaucrats (hired by companies that need to make as much money as possible off us) to decide what we get.


Someguy, I wonder--if you don't want to go to the trouble of checking the facts from the above types of sources--I wonder what drives you.



If you are interested in these ideas, then I would highly suggest reading the entire article. I realize it is very long, and that is why I only posted a tiny excerpt, but I think it would answer your questions in detail.

The way I see it, there may be a lot of corporate control, but people still have a choice. I can choose to buy insurance or not. I can choose to buy prescription drugs or not. The problem Dr. Gonzalez has with the health care legislation is that it could take away that choice. Right now, if I don't like what conventional medicine and the FDA have to offer, I can go see an alternative doctor (such as Dr. Gonzalez or Dr. Tom Cowan in San Francisco), and give my money to that person instead. In this business model, a good doctor can become successful.

In a government-controlled healthcare system, however, a government panel of 'experts' could decide what diagnostic tools and treatments a doctor could legally use, effectively banning anything outside of the mainstream medical establishment. This leads to a stifling of innovation. In the full article Dr. Gonzalez goes through the history of different universal healthcare systems and explains how this has happened every single time.

I just want to stress that reading the full article will answer your questions. Sorry my excerpt left you confused.

Thanks.

LenInSebastopol
02-13-2010, 06:24 AM
I'm interested in knowing how the countless government-run "failed" health systems of other countries have managed nevertheless to result in health statistics that put the US to shame, and at far lower cost.

Could be they have different health practices? In Europe there is more walking on a daily basis. Small country and folks walk way more while none bike (except to "exercise"). We've a huge country and none walk. In Europe the whole approach to "exercise" is viewed differently as it is not something one "does" separately but integrated into their lives. Much like their food intake, as oppose to that of Michael Moore's movie, and Micheal himself. That coincides with the above doctor: folks simply eat healthier and move more. Also their genetic predisposition to health issues have been settled while we here are so diverse that it defies tracking. Those gov'ts also admit they are sinking due to the costs of their health "reform". They are very clear on that. As for their far lower costs, guess who's doing most all the research (US) and who benefits (them) so their costs are kept down in a major way. While their brains do work on cutting edge approaches to problems it is US that buys the tools to do so. Oh, and at our time of life when comes the day to go into that night they simply say, "I'm sorry, there's nothing more we can do" that is based on cost, thus keeping theirs down. That is not to say that there is more that CAN be done. So when that Welsh poet penned, "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night" it was the same time the English were instituting their "health care reform".



I'm interested in how "government control" is any more nefarious and stifling of innovation than corporate control, be it by insurance companies, drug companies, or commercial hospital conglomerates.

It is more nefarious due to the power of gov't which comes from a gun, don't cha' know. How can you compete against a guy with a gun?


I'm interested in his echoing of John Mackey's notion that if we had to pay for every health care decision we made, we'd make better life choices. Over the course of my life, I've had (a) a hernia operation in my teens, resultant from I know not what: (b) a very rare pancreatic tumor that might have caused me institutionalization as a mental patient except for the fact that I was admitted free of charge as a "research patient" (because of its rarity) to excellent care; (c) a broken finger, my own fault, true, but I'm not sure that I'd have avoided it by considering its costs; (d) two children's births, assisted by insurance when we had only just enough money to pay for insurance (and yes, I admit, we could have avoided them - we were just too self-indulgent, I guess); (e) an umbilical hernia, not a fault of my lifestyle, that would have taken a deep bite in our savings if we weren't on Medicare, despite having paid thru the nose for medical insurance up to that point. And I have a chronic, hereditary kidney condition that at some point I might die from, which presumably I might have avoided if I hadn't been born, but at that point I really wasn't rationally considering the costs.

I don't believe he advocated for you to pay all the ills and problems you have suffered. I think you would be taken care of as you have been by the methods used now. I don't think, though I am sure to be made wrong, that it is that cut throat capitalism so many screech about but rather the methods afforded to you would be covered much as they were. Your friend Richard would be covered due to an accident of slipping. One of the doctor's points is "lifestyle" and the ailments above were not brought on by any poor choices, except being born if you're a Buddhist.


I agree totally that people should take better care of themselves. I've never smoked, I drink in moderation, I get a lot of exercise, I eat a very healthy diet, and I look both ways before I cross the street. (I have to admit, true, that I haven't taken the best care of my teeth and have paid thru the nose for the last couple of years for this.) So is this guy telling me that I'm home free? That being on Medicare is being complicit with promoting bad habits, stifling medical innovation, all that?

I missed that part. I don't think that is what he wrote but I am probably wrong or will be painted as such, but I really don't want to go back and re-read that just to prove a minor point. I think he wrote the opposite, that is due to your choice of habits you are GOOD, but why pay for guys that eat chips and Micky D's for 30 years and demand that their tubes be reamed and stents put in at the cost of $30K and then multiply that by about 40 million!


Know what? If I had a diagnosis of cancer and didn't have the insurance I have now (which after all these many years of being vigorously buggered, I can actually afford), sure, I'd do what he suggests: I'd look carefully at all the options, I'd compare the costs, I'd see that the regimen prescribed to me by my oncologist would take all our savings, lose our house, and if I Googled an ad (maybe from this "alternative" practitioner) that a diet of grilled turnips could cure me, I might indeed make an informed decision that would reduce my health care costs and my burden to this planet.Peace, joy, & nevertheless good health--
Conrad

Ah, so you DO agree with the good doctor and it IS painful to do so. Well, pain and suffering is what it's all about as that seems to be the order of mankind for the last 10,000 generations...and look where it got us. Now I got to get up, move, take my meds and try and not get too grumpy by this afternoon.

someguy
02-13-2010, 09:32 AM
Someguy, let me be the first (maybe?) to point out the absurd condescension in your view that theindependenteye was confused.

Please please please recognize that you're running on fumes here. Health reform will not take away your freedom of choice. Please read the more moderate Republicans' web pages if you doubt this (and want to know the truth).


Lucky you, that you can pay cash for whatever health treatment your heart desires. The rest of us depend on bureaucrats (hired by companies that need to make as much money as possible off us) to decide what we get.


Someguy, I wonder--if you don't want to go to the trouble of checking the facts from the above types of sources--I wonder what drives you.

My intention was never to be condescending, and I apologize if I came off that way. Rather, I gathered that due to the nature of theindependenteye's questions, he probably hadn't read the whole article (which is understandable because, as ive said before, its really long). I just felt that the article could answer his questions better than I ever could.

For your information, I absolutely cannot "pay cash for whatever health treatment" my heart desires. I said nothing of the sort. In fact, I am one of those poor people who can't afford health insurance. Thing is, I don't want it! Health insurance (actually, insurance in general) is a huge scam as far as I'm concerned, and I don't want the government mandating me to buy it. What service does an insurance company really offer? Having more money than you?

If there was no insurance, the cost of healthcare procedures and services would be more affordable. Competition would ensure that. After all, how could any sane person really believe that chemotherapy (poison injections) could truly cost $30,000? That's ridiculous, it doesn't really cost that much. The only reason it costs that much now is because of the insurance companies jacking up the price so that they can rape you financially.

For those of you who choose to buy health insurance, I assume the concern is that the insurance companies will refuse you coverage when the time comes. That is a legitimate concern. However, I don't understand why insurance companies can't simply be forced to keep their promises just like any other business. If you pay for coverage, and they don't give it to you, sue them! That's an act of fraud. If the courts fail to act on your behalf, then the reform thats really needed is legislation requiring insurance companies to follow through on their contracts, and not to drop people because of pre-existing conditions.

What we don't need is to force everyone to buy this fraudulent insurance. Throughout this healthcare debate, I've heard a lot about getting everyone insurance, and I've heard almost nothing about what Congress is going to do about the fraudulent practices of insurance companies. It seems that they don't care about that aspect, but in my opinion, that aspect is the entire problem! To me, forcing everyone to buy insurance equals more corporate (and government) control, not less.

You wonder 'what drives me'.......what drives me is concern over having to pay for something I cannot afford that is useless anyway. I'm concerned that if I have to pay for health insurance, I won't be able to afford the high-quality food that I depend on for my health. I won't be able to pay local farmers and ranchers and keep the money in our community (instead the money will be thrown essentially down the toilet to the insurance companies).

An even more insidious aspect of mandating insurance is that if you have to have it, the insurance companies call the shots about what is healthy. This is really dangerous for health freedom, and a huge threat to anyone who doesn't buy the mainstream view of health. Insurance companies can raise the premiums of anyone who doesn't conform to "mainstream health", effectively penalizing people for freedom of choice.

LenInSebastopol
02-13-2010, 05:40 PM
Yeah, that's a lot of money to get someone to poison a person, but as I understand it there's money everywhere for that; I mean the laws, regulations, follow up on the paper and bureaucracy, record keeping and accountability for the smallest amount of nuclear medicine. It's enough to stop a charging herd elephants. As a young man I worked at the old Railroad Hospital in S.F. and it was amazing.
As for insurance companies....phaa. They remind me of the those old mafia movies where the guy pays and pays and gets almost nothing for it; and they control 70% of the wealth of America. Knew a muck-muck in that industry who would say, "Yeah, folks give us money and give us money, and once in a while we'd give a little back". A pox on their house.

kpage9
02-13-2010, 07:49 PM
So if the inevitable occurs and you need medical care, how will it be paid for?
kathy



Yeah, that's a lot of money to get someone to poison a person, but as I understand it there's money everywhere for that; I mean the laws, regulations, follow up on the paper and bureaucracy, record keeping and accountability for the smallest amount of nuclear medicine. It's enough to stop a charging herd elephants. As a young man I worked at the old Railroad Hospital in S.F. and it was amazing.
As for insurance companies....phaa. They remind me of the those old mafia movies where the guy pays and pays and gets almost nothing for it; and they control 70% of the wealth of America. Knew a muck-muck in that industry who would say, "Yeah, folks give us money and give us money, and once in a while we'd give a little back". A pox on their house.

LenInSebastopol
02-14-2010, 05:17 AM
So if the inevitable occurs and you need medical care, how will it be paid for?
kathy

The inevitable is death and the gov't will tax that as well, but at least not this year.
Like gov't there is another necessary evil in the world and it is called insurance. So it is paid AND I don't like it, but then there are so many evils in the world I hate.

kpage9
02-14-2010, 01:15 PM
1. I think you're in a sweet bubble of denial (I'm talking to someguy here mainly , but you too Len) if you think your health will last untreated til you kick the bucket.

2. The govt. only taxes your death IF YOU ARE VERY RICH. Why is it that for the most part it is NOT RICH people who object to the "death tax". People with lots of money AND a working heart understand that sharing is the right thing. The moral thing.

I really appreciate the chance to share thoughts about this issue.

kathy





The inevitable is death and the gov't will tax that as well, but at least not this year.
Like gov't there is another necessary evil in the world and it is called insurance. So it is paid AND I don't like it, but then there are so many evils in the world I hate.

someguy
02-14-2010, 03:27 PM
1. I think you're in a sweet bubble of denial (I'm talking to someguy here mainly , but you too Len) if you think your health will last untreated til you kick the bucket.

kathy

When did I imply that? I take care of my health on a day to day basis, and I do realize that one day that might just not be enough, but what I'm saying is that I want to be able to choose what kinds of procedures and practices I think suit my needs best when the time comes.

Unfortunately for me, I don't think the current health care system's procedures and practices are cool. I am much more 'alternative' when it comes to my health, and I am very involved in researching and studying food and health. So I don't want some bureaucrat forcing me to get mainstream procedures and make me see doctors who will do nothing but recommend the same crap that has been causing our nation's poor health for decades. I don't want that. I want choice. I am not in denial. I simply don't want what your offering, for my own good reasons.

And on top of that, I can't afford insurance. My gf and I make at the very most $2400/month and we are barely making it. We can't save any money at all and were having a hell of a time trying to get anywhere in this recession. Do you think I want a health insurance payment added on to my monthly expenses? No. If I had to pay some asshole insurance dick every month that would probably stop me from buying my meat and eggs directly from Sebastopols own grass fed Felton Acres Farm. I probably couldn't afford the $50/week of grass fed raw milk that I hold so dear, or the $5/lb grass fed chickens, and so on... You see I invest my money in my health daily, by eating a dank regimen of nutrient dense traditional foods. But that is all under threat for me anyways, simply because this diet of mine is high in animal fats. And we all know what the mainstream view is on high fat diets..... Heart disease Oh NO!!!! High cholesterol!!!! But thats all BS and I know it, and other people know it too, but we are few and far between..... And the powers that be hate raw milk, they hate my beef and eggs, and my butter. So whats stopping the insurance companies from charging me out the ass for not following a mainstream diet? This is what I object to. This is restricting my freedom of informed choice, and I won't stand for it.

LenInSebastopol
02-14-2010, 05:28 PM
1. I think you're in a sweet bubble of denial (I'm talking to someguy here mainly , but you too Len) if you think your health will last untreated til you kick the bucket.

2. The govt. only taxes your death IF YOU ARE VERY RICH. Why is it that for the most part it is NOT RICH people who object to the "death tax". People with lots of money AND a working heart understand that sharing is the right thing. The moral thing. I really appreciate the chance to share thoughts about this issue. kathy

Kathy, when it comes to death, your are right. I am in denial; not so much about death itself, just the fear and that is an additive thing. I've read and believe about the last year or two is when the big buster bills come due and prior to that medical cost is almost negligible when one maintains good habits, such as the doctor posed in the O.P. and Someguy practices. Over 6 decades with a broken finger, rotten poison oak, and a couple of other knick knacks and so far so good, but I know 'the big' one will hit hard, so the evil of two lessers is paid to an insurance guy and it is a buster.
As for being rich, t'weren't born nor will go out that way, so's nothing to worry about there. It's just I hate all taxes and find the class game to be a waste of time and a distraction to real issues. It's about as useless as the race game. Not to say that it won't work for analysis and communication of some things, but in the real deal end game both stink on ice.
I appreciate you sharing thoughts & ideas too. SO much to be said, so many lurkers and glad you join in.

Zeno Swijtink
02-14-2010, 06:20 PM
(...) and prior to that medical cost is almost negligible when one maintains good habits, such as the doctor posed in the O.P. and Someguy practices. Over 6 decades with a broken finger, rotten poison oak, and a couple of other knick knacks and so far so good, but I know 'the big' one will hit hard, so the evil of two lessers is paid to an insurance guy and it is a buster.
As for being rich, t'weren't born nor will go out that way, so's nothing to worry about there.

If you are poor you are atypical in your health. Here are some interesting facts about the correlation between wealth and health:


In Sickness and In Wealth

People in the highest income group can expect to live, on average, at least six and a half years longer than those in the lowest. Even those in the middle (families of four making $41,300 to $82,600 a year in 2007) will die, on average, two years sooner than those at the top.

Low-income adults are 50% more likely to suffer heart disease than top earners. Those second from the top are almost 20% more likely than those at the` top.

College graduates can expect to live at least five years longer than those who have not finished high school, and almost two years longer than those who didn’t finish college.

Children living in poverty are about seven times as likely to be in poor or fair health than children living in high-income households. Middle class children are twice as likely to be in poor or fair health than those at the top.

Rates of illness for U.S. adults in their 30s and 40s with low income and lower education are comparable to those of affluent adults in their 60s and 70s.

Low-income smokers are more likely to become ill and die sooner from tobacco related diseases than smokers who are wealthy.

The top 1% of the U.S. population holds more wealth than the bottom 90% combined. During the past 25 years, while the rich became richer, the net worth of the least affluent 40% of American families fell by half.

UNNATURAL CAUSES | Amazing Facts |*CALIFORNIA NEWSREEL (https://www.unnaturalcauses.org/amazing_facts.php)

Indeed, life expectancy climbs almost linearly with wealth, and the disparity is growing:

https://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/03/23/us/0323-nat-HEALTH-web.jpg
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/23/us/23health.html

A big part of the explanation seems to be chronic stress. The wealthier the less chronic stress.


https://www.unnaturalcauses.org/assets/uploads/file/hofrichter_SDOH_graphic.pdf
https://www.unnaturalcauses.org/assets/uploads/file/hofrichter_SDOH_graphic.pdf

kpage9
02-14-2010, 08:33 PM
Let me ask you again, someguy: if you get sick or maimed, who will pay for your medical care?

kathy



When did I imply that? I take care of my health on a day to day basis, and I do realize that one day that might just not be enough, but what I'm saying is that I want to be able to choose what kinds of procedures and practices I think suit my needs best when the time comes.

Unfortunately for me, I don't think the current health care system's procedures and practices are cool. I am much more 'alternative' when it comes to my health, and I am very involved in researching and studying food and health. So I don't want some bureaucrat forcing me to get mainstream procedures and make me see doctors who will do nothing but recommend the same crap that has been causing our nation's poor health for decades. I don't want that. I want choice. I am not in denial. I simply don't want what your offering, for my own good reasons.

And on top of that, I can't afford insurance. My gf and I make at the very most $2400/month and we are barely making it. We can't save any money at all and were having a hell of a time trying to get anywhere in this recession. Do you think I want a health insurance payment added on to my monthly expenses? No. If I had to pay some asshole insurance dick every month that would probably stop me from buying my meat and eggs directly from Sebastopols own grass fed Felton Acres Farm. I probably couldn't afford the $50/week of grass fed raw milk that I hold so dear, or the $5/lb grass fed chickens, and so on... You see I invest my money in my health daily, by eating a dank regimen of nutrient dense traditional foods. But that is all under threat for me anyways, simply because this diet of mine is high in animal fats. And we all know what the mainstream view is on high fat diets..... Heart disease Oh NO!!!! High cholesterol!!!! But thats all BS and I know it, and other people know it too, but we are few and far between..... And the powers that be hate raw milk, they hate my beef and eggs, and my butter. So whats stopping the insurance companies from charging me out the ass for not following a mainstream diet? This is what I object to. This is restricting my freedom of informed choice, and I won't stand for it.

someguy
02-14-2010, 09:03 PM
Let me ask you again, someguy: if you get sick or maimed, who will pay for your medical care?

kathy

I will.

kpage9
02-15-2010, 01:14 AM
Didn't you say some time back that you didn't have lots of money? I just wonder, if that's the case, how you'll pay your hospital bill without insurance.

kathy



I will.

LenInSebastopol
02-15-2010, 05:15 AM
I think you missed the point. As Zeno pointed out we will die sooner rather than later. And your point? That there is a death insurance and none will die or only the rich won't? And for this we need to socialize medicine, so we won't die? Or linger longer in some debilitating state? But until then we will live a life style of health promoting activities for our body & model to the community the same. Or what is it that I am losing?

someguy
02-15-2010, 08:33 AM
Didn't you say some time back that you didn't have lots of money? I just wonder, if that's the case, how you'll pay your hospital bill without insurance.

kathy

Yes I did. If I was maimed and had to go to the hospital, I would go in debt, or ask my family to help, but this is all still my choice (the choice you seem to want to take away, why?). I would much rather take this almost non-existent chance of going in debt after being maimed rather than spiraling into bad health and debt because I have a massive insurance payment to make each month, restricting my current income. This is my choice, not yours and I'm sorry to tell you, but you do not know what is best for me, and neither does the government.

And let's say I did have insurance. What do you think are my chances of getting the insurance companies to actually pay all of my treatment? I bet you I'd still go into debt , or have to ask family for help paying my medical expenses even if I had insurance. So what is your point?

What you need to understand is the insurance companies have a monopoly on this system. (Usually when there is a monopoly, the government's role is to break it up, not to hand the monopoly millions of new customers under threat of financial penalty!!!) The price of medical care is jacked up by the 'middle man' (ie insurance companies), which is what would cause me to go into debt or need health insurance in case of maiming. Did you ever see 'Sicko'? Remember when Michael showed us how the insurance companies make deals with the hospitals to jack the price up on those who do not have insurance? That is BS. And you want to force me into buying that crap? How about you push for some real reform of the insurance industry and abolish it. That way the market will ensure affordable health care for everyone through competition. Right now, this can't happen since the insurance companies keep treatments and procedure costs artificially high. This system right now feeds off of sick people without remorse. The only reason why people are willing accept these outrageous costs is because they're dying and desperate to get better, and the insurance companies do everything in their power to make as much loot as possible off of those people's suffering. I ask you again, why should we all have to give money to these immoral companies?:hmmm:

You know, I don't like this system any more than you probably do. I wish I could go to a doctor I thought was sincere and caring. I wish I could go often for check ups. I can't though. Even if I had health insurance I couldn't. Sure, maybe I could go to a doctor, but I'd still make a co-pay, which I probably couldn't afford often, and the doctor would be like every other stupid doctor Ive ever been to. He would prescribe me silly things like antibiotics for a cold, and I would know more about nutrition and health than the stupid doctor. See, I don't want that. I want to go see a good doctor. One who probably isn't in the back pocket of the insurance/pharmaceutical industry. You can have your fraudulent doctors, and fraudulent insurance if you want, that is all your choice, but my god woman, don't make me do it too. What would be your reason to force this cruel system on me? What does it matter to you whether I have insurance or not, or how I pay for my healthcare?

kpage9
02-15-2010, 09:34 AM
Maybe I did miss the point. I thought Len was referring to "death taxes". But no, I did not say that there is a death insurance and none will die or only the rich won't. Have my posts really made me sound like such a delusional person that I might have?
kathy



I think you missed the point. As Zeno pointed out we will die sooner rather than later. And your point? That there is a death insurance and none will die or only the rich won't? And for this we need to socialize medicine, so we won't die? Or linger longer in some debilitating state? But until then we will live a life style of health promoting activities for our body & model to the community the same. Or what is it that I am losing?

LenInSebastopol
02-15-2010, 06:43 PM
Maybe I did miss the point. I thought Len was referring to "death taxes". But no, I did not say that there is a death insurance and none will die or only the rich won't. Have my posts really made me sound like such a delusional person that I might have?
kathy

No, Kathy, it's me. I take the ball and run sideways all too often. I push the issue to absurdity and sometimes lose my own point. Happens at my age, but it's been doing that for the longest. My bad. Just keep posting, and thanks.

podfish
02-16-2010, 09:18 AM
Yes I did. If I was maimed and had to go to the hospital, I would go in debt, or ask my family to help, but this is all still my choice (the choice you seem to want to take away, why?).

that is extremely naive. The idea that you'll be able to quietly crawl under a bush and die inexpensively is just wrong. You may be able to pull it off if you're careful about it, but probably your carcass will be dragged into a hospital somewhere by some well-meaning passerby. Why would you offer "going into debt" the least bit of a solution, if you don't have the capability to eventually pay it back (which you wouldn't if you were well maimed). And "asking" family for help implies that they may decide to say no (as well as implying that they have the resources to pay). SO you're back into the position of having to climb out of the hospital window before they've spent more caring for you than you have the ability to pay.
Until/unless we have a society that will indeed allow individuals to go without -any- care that they can't pay for, your solution isn't one. That's why we're stuck with this ugly bastardization of a system, where money to pay for it is extracted essentially at random.

theindependenteye
02-16-2010, 09:41 AM
>>>Yes I did. If I was maimed and had to go to the hospital, I would go in debt, or ask my family to help, but this is all still my choice (the choice you seem to want to take away, why?).

I don't think you have a lot to worry about. First, if you needed serious medical care that wasn't immediately life-threatening, the hospital wouldn't take you, so you'd owe them nothing. Or, if you came into the ER, they'd work out a payment plan over a very long haul, which would mean that they'd pass on the costs to the rest of us.

But as for being forced to accept health insurance, I think there's not the slightest chance of that. The health care bill is dead, and any President who proposes reform -- of any sort, except possibly tort reform, killing Medicare, and putting up billboards saying "Be healthy!" -- in the next thirty years would justifiably be thought insane.

So, back to the status quo of "What? Me worry?" I understand from another post that all those stats about the US ranking shamefully low in longevity, etc., is just due to Europeans walking more because the distances are shorter. With luck they'll take away my Medicare to release me from the clutches of the stupid doctors who on several occasions, I thought, made a difference in my functional being. I've heard that an exclusive diet of turkey gizzards and peas prevents most hypothetical diseases plus chest wounds caused by careless handling of the Second Amendment.

Flippancy aside, I'm serious about my original point. You have nothing to worry about. Health care is dead. You're home free.

Cheers--
Conrad

someguy
02-16-2010, 02:00 PM
that is extremely naive. The idea that you'll be able to quietly crawl under a bush and die inexpensively is just wrong. You may be able to pull it off if you're careful about it, but probably your carcass will be dragged into a hospital somewhere by some well-meaning passerby. Why would you offer "going into debt" the least bit of a solution, if you don't have the capability to eventually pay it back (which you wouldn't if you were well maimed). And "asking" family for help implies that they may decide to say no (as well as implying that they have the resources to pay). SO you're back into the position of having to climb out of the hospital window before they've spent more caring for you than you have the ability to pay.
Until/unless we have a society that will indeed allow individuals to go without -any- care that they can't pay for, your solution isn't one. That's why we're stuck with this ugly bastardization of a system, where money to pay for it is extracted essentially at random.

Listen, this is all about calculating risk. The likelihood of me being maimed is incredibly small, and on my shoestring budget, it is not worth it for me to buy insurance in case of that. Would you tell me that I was being naive if I told you that I lived in the flood zone of Guerneville without flood insurance? I would be totally screwed if a flood came into my home and destroyed everything. I would have to ask my family for help or go into debt to replace my stuff. What if I told you I didn't have life insurance, would I still be so naive? My partner would be screwed without my income and help, but is that really such a overwhelming threat at this moment where I should be forced to buy life insurance?

Look we take calculated risks everyday, and for someone else to invade my freedom of choice and say that I'm being "extremely naive" and force me to buy insurance for every little 'maybe' out there I'd be out on the flippin streets. If you read all of my other posts, you'd know that I take care of my health and that I invest lots of my limited income maintaining that health level. I don't see the need to deduct more money out of my income 'just in case' the worst possible situation happens. There will always be unexpected sorrows in our lives that may cost us a lot, but we shouldn't be forced to live our lives around those 'maybes'. Besides, America is all about freedom, and I don't feel very free when people with guns (our government) force me into poverty and poor health (I explained this concept earlier).

If you really wanted to help me (a poor person) get the help I need in a time of terrible medical despair, then you should work on abolishing the health insurance industry, (which does nothing but inflate costs) and allow the free market to help everyone.