garage bands

[mocaisse]

HI fellow Waccos- I've lived in Sebastopol a little over two years and moved here because of the small town mentality and quiet, slow pace of life. I've recently been having problems with garage bands, and would like to know if anybody else is experiencing the same. As a music teacher it might seem strange that I would be complaining, but I find that these groups violate my peace and serenity. I am very conscientious and make sure my windows and doors are closed while teaching so as to avoid disturbing my neighbors, and think that I deserve the same respect. My husband and I have called the city and the city attorney and found that there is no noise ordinance in this town. We have written a letter to the city council and plan on presenting it. Is there anybody out there that would be willing to express any similar experiences at a council meeting in Sebastopol?
Thanks, Maureen
[email protected]

[ceni]

Welcome to Sebastopol! We're all lucky to have found ourselves here.

With all due respect, You'd be much better served by the realization that live, local music (and the practicing of such) is an integral and vibrant part of the town. Every band I know here respects wishes of neighbors and will gladly tone it down if the situation warrants. Communication is the key.

The simple - and obvious, dare I say it - answer is to talk to said garage band(s) to express your aural displeasure and work it out on a much more local level.

Think of the alternative: how would feel if you DIDN'T hear any music where you live?



HI fellow Waccos- I've lived in Sebastopol a little over two years and moved here because of the small town mentality and quiet, slow pace of life. I've recently been having problems with garage bands, and would like to know if anybody else is experiencing the same. As a music teacher it might seem strange that I would be complaining, but I find that these groups violate my peace and serenity. I am very conscientious and make sure my windows and doors are closed while teaching so as to avoid disturbing my neighbors, and think that I deserve the same respect. My husband and I have called the city and the city attorney and found that there is no noise ordinance in this town. We have written a letter to the city council and plan on presenting it. Is there anybody out there that would be willing to express any similar experiences at a council meeting in Sebastopol?
Thanks, Maureen
[email protected]

[dinatekno]

I agree completely. Why bring the law into it? :dunno: Where has the fine art of communicating with one's neighbors gone? :peepwall: It seems a bit sad that such an extreme reaction is seen as the only resort.

Art, music and small town life have been here for a long time. They have gotten along quite amicably.:grouphug: I would hate to see that ruined.

Just my .02 :D

Peace!!:tinker:
Dina



Welcome to Sebastopol! We're all lucky to have found ourselves here.

With all due respect, You'd be much better served by the realization that live, local music (and the practicing of such) is an integral and vibrant part of the town. Every band I know here respects wishes of neighbors and will gladly tone it down if the situation warrants. Communication is the key.

The simple - and obvious, dare I say it - answer is to talk to said garage band(s) to express your aural displeasure and work it out on a much more local level.

Think of the alternative: how would feel if you DIDN'T hear any music where you live?

[Free Mind Media]

You must be joking right? That is probably the most disturbing post I have ever seen on this message board. You have disturbed my serenity. Should I call the City attorney now?




HI fellow Waccos- I've lived in Sebastopol a little over two years and moved here because of the small town mentality and quiet, slow pace of life. I've recently been having problems with garage bands, and would like to know if anybody else is experiencing the same. As a music teacher it might seem strange that I would be complaining, but I find that these groups violate my peace and serenity. I am very conscientious and make sure my windows and doors are closed while teaching so as to avoid disturbing my neighbors, and think that I deserve the same respect. My husband and I have called the city and the city attorney and found that there is no noise ordinance in this town. We have written a letter to the city council and plan on presenting it. Is there anybody out there that would be willing to express any similar experiences at a council meeting in Sebastopol?
Thanks, Maureen
[email protected]

[Leslie]

Maureen,
I say you get creative about the solution. They want to express their creative musical hearts.. I have lived with a garage band in my house.. imagine that.. the drums right there in my living room. It was intense but it was stirring a passion in those boys. We strip so many opportunitys for passion in our kids by saying don't do that here don't do that there, you can't hang out here you can't skate there. What in the heck are they supposse to do with their energy? It will turn to drinking stealing fighting etc.. if it isn't channeled somewhere.
Since you are a Teacher, since you are a music teacher, , why don't you offer up some free music lessons. Why don't you organize a battle of the garage bands.. maybe a fundraiser to help the kids in town pay for their skatepark..or something like that. I am sure you would get support to help organize such a thing.
Why don't you knock on theri door and explain to them your need for some boundaries around the time they play.. then it is a win win. SIncere and freindly works with teenagers.
It makes me really sad to think of something like this going before the law or making ordinances around creative expression.

what about ear plugs

Leslie

[Sabrina]

Before people get too abusive here, did you, Maureen, try to communicate with these bands first? I think people sound upset because your post sounds like you did not. Perhaps you communicated with them and they blatently ignored you? I live in Santa Rosa, and generally the noise ordinances here say that as long as the sound cannot be heard at a certain decible level from the street,( and during the day, know one cares, it's mostly after 10pm at night). Living in any town, during the day, you could experience any kind of noise that could irritate someone depending on who they are...loud construction noises, screaming kids, little constant yappy dogs, lawn mowers, or of course music practice of any kind (music is among the nicer noises, I think). Were these people playing hard core thrasher music after 12 midnight? Actually as I recall from doing a music event in Sebastopol a few years back, there was a noise ordinance near neighborhoods if it was past 11? I can't recall now. Maybe somewhere out in the country would be the best place to live....(?) Sorry for any misspelled words, here, I cannot find a spell check!

Sabrina



You must be joking right? That is probably the most disturbing post I have ever seen on this message board. You have disturbed my serenity. Should I call the City attorney now?

[momsawake]

Well, it sounds to me like the issue here is not noise but the general anti-youth attitude that prompted me to move from Sebastopol to Santa Rosa when my children reached their teen years and suddenly became persona-non-grata on the streets of Sebastopol. So sad. My cherished illusion of Sebastopol as a progressive community was finally put to rest by hearing otherwise forward-thinking, educated, self-proclaimed liberals say things like 'Why are these kids allowed to loiter here?' and 'I'm going to complain about this hacky-sack blocking the sidewalk'. Pshaw. The kids can't hang around any public setting in Sebastopol without violating an adults precious 'rights' and now we want to get them in trouble for hanging around privately playing music! And we wonder why they are depressed and on drugs. Hey Maureen, make friends with your local teens - they're people, too.

[Sonomamark]

What strikes me about this post is Maureen's unbelievable sense of entitlement. While it's reasonable to expect quiet from, say, 9 PM to 9 AM, no resident of an urban-density parcel can reasonably expect to exert a constant "cone of silence" over her entire neighborhood.

If you really expect that kind of isolation, you're going to have to pay for it and buy a distant and separated house, not live in a community and expect everyone else to conform to your imagined dream of what it was going to be like when you moved here. You didn't move to MeLand, ma'am--it's not all just about you.


Mark

[Barry]

What strikes me about this post is Maureen's unbelievable sense of entitlement. {...snip...} You didn't move to MeLand, ma'am--it's not all just about you. https://www.waccobb.net/forums/images/NewSmilies/nono.gif/NewSmilies/nono.gif:nono:
You must be joking right? That is probably the most disturbing post I have ever seen on this message board. You have disturbed my serenity. Should I call the City attorney now? :nono:

Just as Maureen needs to have some respect and tolerance for her neighbors, and perhaps engage them in a respectful discussion of how they can work it out, the same goes for anybody here who has a problem with some one's post. We are all neighbors here in the Wacco cybervillage and I ask you (and everybody else) to treat each other with the same respect and kindness that you would if you were talking face to face (and your mother successfully taught you how to be nice!).

I want everybody to feel safe here so they can post freely, without the fear that they may be attacked or made wrong. If you disagree with someone you are welcome to post that, but please do so kindly and respectfully. This goes for any private responses to public posts as well.

Barry
Moderator

[Karen]

Dear Maureen and others,

Rohnert Park's noise ordinance has saved my sanity. Next to me is a guy with a truck that far exceeds the ordinance's allowable levels. He would start his truck and let it warm up for 15 minutes right beside my bedroom. I stay up late and sleep late, but for at least a year, I was staying up late and waking up early. He didnt seem to mind that is was a problem for me, saying he has to go to work. That may be true, but he has to figure out a way to do that with out ruining my health, for instance, buying a proper muffler or parking elsewhere. The police have cleared that up for him and I wake when I should now. I feel much stronger, happier, healthier.

Too much noise is not good for people or animals or even plants. We need to be respectful of that. It degrades our environment, impacts our nervous and immune systems and diminishes our hearing.

I have a friend with a studio in a tract housing setting. He has soundproofing, of course. I think everyone who is planning on making a lot of noise needs to be respectful of others and contain it. Ordinances are a formal way of stating and enforcing that sensitivity to the rights of others. I urge you to get a noise ordinance as soon as possible. :thumbsup:


...there is no noise ordinance in this town.
Thanks, Maureen

[Free Mind Media]

Barry,

With all due respect for all of the work that you have done and continue to do here, I vehemently disagree with your moderation on this topic. Maureen's post was, after all, asking that we join her in a cause and therefore elicited a response from me. I don't find any shame in being a bit cynical about being asked to join something that would limit basic freedom of expression in our community in exchange for someone's personal serenity.

I believe that, as a community, we have the duty to address or confront each other virtually, face to face, and publicly when it comes to issues that are inciteful, discriminatory and divisive. As to whether or not my Mother taught me to be nice, well... The world is not always a nice place. And while we all seem desparately to cling to the facade that is pseudo-progressive and enlightened, neo-liberal and kind Sebastopol/West County, the reality is becoming quite different in my view. The lack of frank, open discussion and an unwillingness to speak honestly for fear of possibily wounding someone's ego is unforgiveable. It's even worse if we self-censor just to maintain some feigned sense of harmony and safety. I thought that this was the kind of community that welcomed free expression and honest discussion. Judging by some of the other responses to this issue, other people seem to feel the same way.

I didn't mean to frame my initial comments as a personal attack. I just wanted to point out that serenity is a relative matter and can't be mandated by the City Council, not even by the Green, Sebastopol variety. Sometimes people are just wrong Barry, as I'm sure someone here will be kind enough to point out about this post. I admit that my initial response was a bit of a jab and may not have been entirely appropriate, but i was so pissed off that it was the nicest thing i could muster at the time. I actually thought it was quite nice considering. I would gladly engage in respectful, face to face dialog with Maureen but as of yet I do not know her personally. Perhaps we will have a chance to meet if this issue of self expression does come before the City Council. :hugs:

Robert


https://www.waccobb.net/forums/images/NewSmilies/nono.gif/NewSmilies/nono.gif:nono: :nono:

Just as Maureen needs to have some respect and tolerance for her neighbors, and perhaps engage them in a respectful discussion of how they can work it out, the same goes for anybody here who has a problem with some one's post. We are all neighbors here in the Wacco cybervillage and I ask you (and everybody else) to treat each other with the same respect and kindness that you would if you were talking face to face (and your mother successfully taught you how to be nice!).

I want everybody to feel safe here so they can post freely, without the fear that they may be attacked or made wrong. If you disagree with someone you are welcome to post that, but please do so kindly and respectfully. This goes for any private responses to public posts as well.

Barry
Moderator

[momsawake]

Dear Maureen,
I'm sorry if my post sounded like a personal attack. As a musician and a mother, the idea of bringing a formal complaint about garage bands to the council appalled me. Your post hit a nerve because it reminded me of how disappointed I was when I first realized how difficult it is for teens to be teens in Sebastopol. When my daughter was a student at Analy, I listened every day to heartbreaking stories of kids who felt rejected, invisible, and oppressed. I tried to 'poo-poo' these kids' talk as melodramatic over-reactions until I heard adults (both acquaintances and strangers on the streets) saying exactly the kinds of things that so upset them. Things like "we need an ordinance..."

Showing some genuine interest in what they're doing will likely achieve your immediate goal as well as open the door to expanding your own musical horizons.

So here's some useful input for making contact... Wait until the music stops. Go mess around in your front yard (where you can see them leaving the practice). Say hello. Ask the name of their band, if they have played any gigs, if they play originals or covers. Tell them you play music, too. Say good-bye when the conversation peters out. Then, a week or so later, wait until they stop. Go mess around in your front yard and say hello as they leave. Repeat at least once more. Then, the next time it's too loud or goes on too long, wait until they're done, knock on the door, and gently let them know that you're having a hard time (doing yoga, reading the paper, whatever) because the music is so loud. Ask if you can have the phone number or an open invite to knock on the door to let them know when it's bugging you. Whatever you do, don't use the word "noise".

Now a story. I had a young houseguest who played thrash metal (don't ask) and I pretty much disrespected his music as toneless crap. One day he played me a Bach piece, so I said 'now that is music'. Then he played the exact same Bach piece at about 5 times speed. It sounded like thrash metal. At that point I realized that this kid was technically an *amazing* guitarist and that his thrash metal music was technically very complex and difficult to play. It really changed my level of respect and appreciation - I didn't like it any better but I could respect as a musician what went into it and somehow that allowed me to tolerate it.

To assist in gaining some appreciation for these kids music, check out "String Tribute to Tool" which is a full orchestra playing the music of Tool (popular band) - it's great. There are several orchestral tributes to contemporary bands out there, apparently this is a format that's working for teens and it sure sounds better to me :)

I hope you can see your way clear to dropping this matter with the city council.
Good luck!

[Karen]

Dear Robert,

It's not about freedom of self expression, it's about pollution of a common space. Noise is pollution. That's why they call it noise pollution.

Your argument is what Coca cola uses to despoil communities' groundwater and walk away, free men. Freedom to despoil takes precident over the common good, they say. It's at the heart of the corporations claims of spreading freedom. When you hear the big boys talking about spreading freedom, they are talking about abusing others rights or property or environment, more often than not.


Barry,

With all due respect for all of the work that you have done and continue to do here, I vehemently disagree with your moderation on this topic. Maureen's post was, after all, asking that we join her in a cause and therefore elicited a response from me. I don't find any shame in being a bit cynical about being asked to join something that would limit basic freedom of expression in our community in exchange for someone's personal serenity.

I believe that, as a community, we have the duty to address or confront each other virtually, face to face, and publicly when it comes to issues that are inciteful, discriminatory and divisive. As to whether or not my Mother taught me to be nice, well... The world is not always a nice place. And while we all seem desparately to cling to the facade that is pseudo-progressive and enlightened, neo-liberal and kind Sebastopol/West County, the reality is becoming quite different in my view. The lack of frank, open discussion and an unwillingness to speak honestly for fear of possibily wounding someone's ego is unforgiveable. It's even worse if we self-censor just to maintain some feigned sense of harmony and safety. I thought that this was the kind of community that welcomed free expression and honest discussion. Judging by some of the other responses to this issue, other people seem to feel the same way.

I didn't mean to frame my initial comments as a personal attack. I just wanted to point out that serenity is a relative matter and can't be mandated by the City Council, not even by the Green, Sebastopol variety. Sometimes people are just wrong Barry, as I'm sure someone here will be kind enough to point out about this post. I admit that my initial response was a bit of a jab and may not have been entirely appropriate, but i was so pissed off that it was the nicest thing i could muster at the time. I actually thought it was quite nice considering. I would gladly engage in respectful, face to face dialog with Maureen but as of yet I do not know her personally. Perhaps we will have a chance to meet if this issue of self expression does come before the City Council. :hugs:

Robert


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[Free Mind Media]

Dear Karen,

Noise is a subjective analysis of sounds. "They call it noise pollution" because "They" don't find those particular aural combinations pleasing or timely. If you define anything that you find to be personally objectionable as pollution then your statement is correct. Groundwater pollution is very different. It can be readily quantified and tangible, harmful effects can be directly attributed to it. What contributes to or decimates one's serenity is not so easy to measure. Freedom to despoil one's own garage with thrash metal is hardly tantamount to corporate pollution of the third world commons, that is just ridiculous (no offense taken or intended). I merely suggest here that a mutually agreeable, consensual agreement could have been reached or mediated through community involvement in some form other than ordinance. I do not suggest at any point that these people should be allowed to run rampant and tread on everyone else's eardrums whenever they feel like it. It is nearly impossible to find solutions that make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time. I do believe that it is possible, though, to reach consensus on solutions that all participants can live side by side with. We don't have to hand down authoritarian dictates that further limit our declining liberties every time someone gets a headache and doesn't know how to effectively communicate with their neighbors. We can communicate or ask for help in communicating if we aren't sure how.

I also wanted to point out that Maureen never mentioned if she attempted to communicate with her garage band. It is entirely possible that she did make a reasonable, skillful attempt before involving "the authorities". It is also entirely possible that she had the door slammed in her face, in which case, I can understand, but not sympathize with, her wanting to involve lawyers and cops.



Dear Robert,

It's not about freedom of self expression, it's about pollution of a common space. Noise is pollution. That's why they call it noise pollution.

Your argument is what Coca cola uses to despoil communities' groundwater and walk away, free men. Freedom to despoil takes precident over the common good, they say. It's at the heart of the corporations claims of spreading freedom. When you hear the big boys talking about spreading freedom, they are talking about abusing others rights or property or environment, more often than not.

[Karen]

Rong Again Robert, noise is quantifiable. Here, anything over 80 decibles at the property line is excessive. It may be my favorite opera, but if I'm trying to watch a movie, it's going to bother me. I have a right to my space. Having legal recourse when my rights were infringed upon made sense. It took one phone call from the police to explain the rules. There were no lawyers, no uniformed gunmen called in. The ordinance here is not one that says Thou Shalt Not Make Noise, it just says how much you are allowed to put on your neighbor's property.



Dear Karen,

Noise is a subjective analysis of sounds. "They call it noise pollution" because "They" don't find those particular aural combinations pleasing or timely. If you define anything that you find to be personally objectionable as pollution then your statement is correct. Groundwater pollution is very different. It can be readily quantified and tangible, harmful effects can be directly attributed to it. What contributes to or decimates one's serenity is not so easy to measure. Freedom to despoil one's own garage with thrash metal is hardly tantamount to corporate pollution of the third world commons, that is just ridiculous (no offense taken or intended). I merely suggest here that a mutually agreeable, consensual agreement could have been reached or mediated through community involvement in some form other than ordinance. I do not suggest at any point that these people should be allowed to run rampant and tread on everyone else's eardrums whenever they feel like it. It is nearly impossible to find solutions that make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time. I do believe that it is possible, though, to reach consensus on solutions that all participants can live side by side with. We don't have to hand down authoritarian dictates that further limit our declining liberties every time someone gets a headache and doesn't know how to effectively communicate with their neighbors. We can communicate or ask for help in communicating if we aren't sure how.

I also wanted to point out that Maureen never mentioned if she attempted to communicate with her garage band. It is entirely possible that she did make a reasonable, skillful attempt before involving "the authorities". It is also entirely possible that she had the door slammed in her face, in which case, I can understand, but not sympathize with, her wanting to involve lawyers and cops.

[momsawake]

Where do you get a decibel meter anyway? When my neighbors are knockin' the bottom out I'd swear she hits high C. ;)

Rong Again Robert, noise is quantifiable. Here, anything over 80 decibles at the property line is excessive. It may be my favorite opera, but if I'm trying to watch a movie, it's going to bother me. I have a right to my space. Having legal recourse when my rights were infringed upon made sense. It took one phone call from the police to explain the rules. There were no lawyers, no uniformed gunmen called in. The ordinance here is not one that says Thou Shalt Not Make Noise, it just says how much you are allowed to put on your neighbor's property.

[Karen]

Where do you get a decibel meter anyway? When my neighbors are knockin' the bottom out I'd swear she hits high C. ;):rofl:
radioshack. Tape recorders too.

[Free Mind Media]

This is the WACCO board that I love. It is an awesome forum for people of different points of view to express the subtleties of their character. Too bad i'm supposed to be getting some work done right now...:wink:

Excessive sound levels are quantifiable. Noise is still a subjective analysis in my view. I think you missed that point. I think you also missed the point about how we all have individual rights that need to be accounted for and solutions should be consented to by more than one party. Are my rights bigger than your rights? I don't think so. Calling the cops or writing yet another ordinance to resolve something every time we feel slighted doesn't do much for community building or making the commons feel like a place I want to frequent.

Oh, and last time I checked, Cops are uniformed gunmen. They are the local enforcement arm of our corporate government who is kept in power through violent intimidation (cops) and legal oppression (lawyers), but that is another thread...


Rong Again Robert, noise is quantifiable. Here, anything over 80 decibles at the property line is excessive. It may be my favorite opera, but if I'm trying to watch a movie, it's going to bother me. I have a right to my space. Having legal recourse when my rights were infringed upon made sense. It took one phone call from the police to explain the rules. There were no lawyers, no uniformed gunmen called in. The ordinance here is not one that says Thou Shalt Not Make Noise, it just says how much you are allowed to put on your neighbor's property.

[Karen]

Excessive sound levels are quantifiable. Noise is still a subjective analysis in my view. I think you missed that point. I addressed that in the comment about even my favorite sounds coming from your side of the fence are polluting if they interfere with what I am doing.


I think you also missed the point about how we all have individual rights that need to be accounted for and solutions should be consented to by more than one party. Are my rights bigger than your rights? I don't think so.The ordinance is an assertion of individual rights. That's what it's there for. To protect my rights against noise pollution from the guy next door. I don't like it when he throws his garbage in my yard, either. Whose rights are larger? I can't say I understand that question. You are free to make all the noise you want, but not in a manner that diminishes another's experience.


Calling the cops or writing yet another ordinance to resolve something every time we feel slighted doesn't do much for community building or making the commons feel like a place I want to frequent.

Oh, and last time I checked, Cops are uniformed gunmen.Yeah, I should have been more clear that I meant they didn't have to come over to the mobilehome park physically. They just took my readings, over 100 decibles, well over that causing hearing loss, 15 feet from my pillow, and called teh guy and said that's not allowed and if you're cited twice, it's $500 and possible time in the hoosegow. That was so simple. After trying to talk to the guy himself over many months, I considered using the law my next to last resort. I am thankful I didnt have to resort to my last resort.


They are the local enforcement arm of our corporate government who is kept in power through violent intimidation (cops) and legal oppression (lawyers), but that is another thread...

["Mad" Miles]

Ahh.... Teenagers and loud music! What a perennial recipe for conflict. I recently walked down to my neighbors and asked them not to inject the base line from their stereo into my living space. Luckily they were cool and I haven't had a problem since and it's been three weeks. At my gentle insistence we exchanged phone numbers so if the problem does re-arise, I'll just give them a call.

Five years ago I lived in a household where a sixteen year old drummer practiced with his band in the substructure at the end of the house. Needless to say the drums, electric base and guitar were very noticeable when they were jamming. This in one of those semi-"isolated" country homes so recommended in recent posts. It sucked when they powered up at 10:00 a.m. on a Sunday morning and I was living my preferred circadian rythym of sleeping from 4:00 a.m. to noon. (Alas those days are long gone.)

No attempts at negotiation or compromise were fruitful. And this dude didn't just lack social skills with adults, he pretty much pissed off everyone he knew. Sometimes adolescence is a period of graceful freedom, sometimes it's a living hell to be survived and left behind, (or not.)

So, communication is good. Compromise is good. But sometimes they fail. No one should have a right to inject their sounds, light, smells or anything else into my private space, at any time of the day or night. If you can't find a place to practice that is sufficiently sound-proofed or isolated then you need to take into account the needs and rights of your neighbors.

Adolescents should have nearly the same rights and responsibilities as adults. Being young is not a license to be a jerk, even if it may seem that way sometimes. And suggesting someone move to the country in this real estate market is tantamount to a verbal slap. Almost everyone would if they could. If they haven't, obviously they can't. Not a useful suggestion.

On the other hand, youths should be given some slack. They are treated as second class citizens, at the very time they are becoming conscious of the hypocrisy and compromises with evil by adult society. Instead of abandoning them to the time from 3-3:30 until 6:00 or 7:00 p.m. when they're essentially latch-key kids, why not provide free or incredibly inexpensive practice spaces for their garage bands in areas where they won't impinge on the rights of others? Not to mention access to other "wholesome" activities.

Yeah, right, that'll be the day.

"Mad" Miles

[Sonomamark]

:dunno:

WAIT a minute! Now we're tarbrushing a garage band with a sweeping generalization about "corporations"? MUSICIANS are the same thing as "despoilers of groundwater"?

I'm sorry, Barry, but I don't feel I was rude before. I don't seem to be the only person here who thinks Maureen's sense of entitlement is excessive, and this most recent post by Karen seems to imply a grossly inflated sense of righteousness and moral superiority on the part of the poster, not to mention an inability or unwillingness to discriminate between global-scale wrongs and the inconveniences of living adjacent to other primates.

Which doesn't strike me as very reasonable. I don't think it's rude to say so.

Mark

Dear Robert,

It's not about freedom of self expression, it's about pollution of a common space. Noise is pollution. That's why they call it noise pollution.

Your argument is what Coca cola uses to despoil communities' groundwater and walk away, free men. Freedom to despoil takes precident over the common good, they say. It's at the heart of the corporations claims of spreading freedom. When you hear the big boys talking about spreading freedom, they are talking about abusing others rights or property or environment, more often than not.

[pbrinton]

I hesitate to inject myself into this controversy as it seems to generate a great deal of what I see as less than courteous comment. With regard to that, those who defend this kind of response on the grounds that they want to be free to express their "true feelings" without "self-censorship" might consider that their views might be accorded more respect if they treated others' views with more respect. (Which will, no doubt, bring a storm of disrespect down on my own head!)

With regard to the noise question: it seems to me those who are attacking the original poster on the grounds that she is trying to limit the creative urges of the music-makers are missing an important point. She was not complaining about their music, but about the fact that it was clearly audible in her home. Are you saying that it is an essential part of the creative process that its results be rendered at high volume? Why can the band not turn their amplifiers off and use headphones to hear their music? And why would it be unreasonable to ask them to soundproof their practice area? Many solutions have been suggested that involve the person whose peace is being disturbed having to act in ways that protect the rights and feelings of those doing the disturbing, but is it not incumbent upon the offenders to mitigate their offence? In my opinion the band are perfectly within their rights to make any kind of music they wish as long as they do not force others to listen to it within their own homes.

I also agree that looking to the authorities to solve the problem should be a last resort, not a first.

Patrick Brinton

[Barry]

Barry,

With all due respect for all of the work that you have done and continue to do here, I vehemently disagree with your moderation on this topic. Maureen's post was, after all, asking that we join her in a cause and therefore elicited a response from me. I don't find any shame in being a bit cynical about being asked to join something that would limit basic freedom of expression in our community in exchange for someone's personal serenity.Objection noted. Its just that I didn't feel that your response to Maureen was with "all due respect" but rather a "bit of jab" :xpoke:. It wasn't horrible, but here was a lady already feeling under siege :peepwall:, probably not a hardened cyber veteran:Jedi:, wading into a public forum to see if there was any support for her point of view. Again, you are welcome to voice your opinion that going to the city is not the best way to do that, but again with "all due respect".


As to whether or not my Mother taught me to be nice, well... The world is not always a nice place. And while we all seem desparately to cling to the facade that is pseudo-progressive and enlightened, neo-liberal and kind Sebastopol/West County, the reality is becoming quite different in my view.Its true the world isn't aways nice, but in this little cybervillage of "conscious community" I think we can maintain a higher standard. I am making a stand for WaccoBB to be "...progressive and enlightened, neo-liberal and kind", not by self-censoring, but by using some compassion.

Barry

[Barry]

I'm sorry, Barry, but I don't feel I was rude before. I don't seem to be the only person here who thinks Maureen's sense of entitlement is excessive.That may be so, but its still a matter of how you commicate it, Mark, you arrogant asshole :wink:.

[petermargolies]

That may be so, but its still a matter of how you commicate it, Mark, you arrogant asshole :wink:.

Oops - now that sort of name calling may be a little bit over the line. People have been telling me nearly my whole life it's not just what you say, but how you say it.
I've been following this discussion for the past week. Responded privately that I have a teenager who's in a garage band and they play in our basement. I find that ear plugs help - me. I like the foam rubber kind that roll up and insert directly into my ear canal. Head phones also help - me and them. I use them to hear over the noise and the kids can plug into their amps and turn down the external volume. Doesn't help the drumming much, but lowers the overall noise level. Soundproofing the room is not always practical, as has been suggested and at least in my son's case the only time they have to practice is late at night. Ours is a well-insullated house so we have not heard complaints from the neighborhood.
In these situations everybody has to give a little. Talking things out helps. The kids may not be aware that their music carries as far as next door. The ear plugs work great BTW. Most of the parents wear them - even at concerts. Especially at concerts. Have you ever been to one of these garage band concerts? Like at the Phoenix in Petaluma. If you go, don't leave home without ear plugs. You're gonna need them.

[Barry]

...arogant asshole
Oops - now that sort of name calling may be a little bit over the line. People have been telling me nearly my whole life it's not just what you say, but how you say it. My point exactly. I was demonstrating an example of that. No offense intended, Mark.:hugs:

[wildflower]

I LOVE 'EM!!!
not before 9am or after 9pm though!

[hapahaole]

Waccos,

Having been on both sides of the fence (literally and metaphorically), I have an offer for Maureen:

If all else fails, i.e., from friendly attempts at communication to threats of incarceration, then I would offer a loan of one of my Strats and my Marshall half-stack whereupon she could 1) offer to sit in with the band (rhythm, if not lead), or 2) determine the sleep cycle of the resident band member and, at a well chosen time of day/night, attempt to reproduce her least favorite thrash metal composition at a volume level equal to or greater than the original offending experience. Unfortunately, my aforementioned Marshall isn’t the model that goes up to “eleven,” but I’d be glad to show her a few chords (which she may know already) that might make an impression nonetheless.

Who knows, she might get the gig... I hope so.

Joking aside, reasonable people can come up with reasonable solutions. If one of the parties involved doesn’t meet that description, then you have to go to plan “B” (whatever that may be that meets your sensibilities).

I hope it works out... our youth are too important; music is too important; and we can support neither if our sanity is compromised.

Yours in aural dilemma,

Patrick

(“Aural Dilemma”... not a bad band name; but probably taken)

[Barry]

Maureen, who started this thread, is no longer a member of WaccoBB.net because she received too many offensive replies. However she did ask me to post this for her:

Wow! Didn't think this would be such a divisive issue. I failed to mention in my original post that my husband did indeed attempt to communicate with aforementioned neighbors more than once, and was told to not come back to the house, to call the police. Our intention is not to stop garage bands or any other type of creative endeavor, we simply feel that we should not be subjected to listening to it in our house. The idea that I wear earplugs in my own home is ludicrous.

We wish to thank those who had positive suggestions, and for those individuals whose only desire was to spew venom, well..... we're trying to be civil about the situation.

We will continue to pursue any and all avenues open to us; we are taxpayers as well, and do believe! that everybody is free to express themselves provided they are not impinging on anothers' rights. <o:p></o:p>

[thpwrthtbe]

Well, here goes another hat into the ring. This thread jumped out at me the day it was posted because i am a musician. I am amazed and pleased that it has continued to spur debate. Id like to explain my own situation for some consideration as it applies to many suggestions posted previously, and i have not seen any current so called "garage bands" respond. from playing in bands for eleven years and having been down every avenue of recourse, i want to offer some perspective on the situation.

I am a drummer and have been playing for many years in many bands. I own a drumkit that cost more than 5000 dollars. its my baby, and it looks and sounds great. At the moment i can only appreciate how good it looks because of my living space i cannot play it. That is without the practice pads. I can play for hours with the pads on but this really isnt helpful to my skill level, only to my endurance. I cant think of a good analogy, perhaps like tying shoes with thick gloves on or something, its just not the same. drums are acoustic and senseitive, taking the pads off after practicing with them on for years would put you back at square one, its a whole different game. so i sit here unable to play, not because ive read this forum , or im aware of orindances, but because of common sense, my instrument is loud and others will be affected by it. I dont want to bothers others because i dont want to be bothered myself. The first thing i did upon moving in was introduce myself to my immediate meighbors and give my number to call if i were too loud, one neighbor never seems to answer the door and so its been months now and ive still been unable to contact them.
As a musician the first thing i want is to be able to practice when i can. the last thing i want is to bother someone else, not just for the sake of bothering them but because it will mean that ill have to curtail or even desist with my practice, im pretty talented but that doesnt matter and regardless im a little shy , i dont like people to hear me practice. So what are my options. I usually try to find a place in the counrty not only for the music but for the country itself, that is my way of life. As you know these places are hard to come by and usually a little more exspensive, especially here in the North Bay. And as with any rental (most bands dont own houses) the thought of a band moving in conjurs up fear of wild parties and holes in the wall. unfortuanley these stereotypes are rooted in truth, something us repsonible types have to accept. The thing about the country is that while you may be able to achieve distance from your neighbors, the quiet of the area means your sound will be all that much more apparent. The other option, living in town, and thus close proximity to others only works if you find an area that is already noisy enough that your sounds will mix in with city and not stand out too much. Either way, soundproofing is the best idea. Problem with soundproofing is that to really have an effect on the output level you will need spend a LOT of money and/or make modifictaions to the structure i.e. Sub floor Sub walls and other permanant installations that arent exceptable or even practicle when your renting. A basement is the absolute best place for a band to play but unfotuantley here unlike the midwest where i am from, basements are very rare. Another option is to rent industrial/commercial space, this is almost always too expensive and often not open to a "Recording Studio". never the less i have aquired them in the past, just like i have had great homes secluded in the counrtyside, and even some really great nieghbors in town. Although some bands certainly are obnoxious and socially inept most are not, and many already know what i have just said, there just isnt a lot of viable options for reharsal space.
As a result, a band will generally setup wherever it is most convienant musically for them, and this means communication is a must. I think someones right to quiet is no different than someones right to niose. even though the noise would spill over into the quiet space, the demand for quiet space spills over into the space for niose by supressing it. If you are willling to give up a specific amount of your quiet to allow noise, than both both sides will have compromised. we are a human family, and no family i know ever gets along all the the time, and no one ever gets their way, all the way either.
One option ive yet to try is the use of public space. i mean this jovially when i say that our town is up to its ears in pilates and yoga classes, there must be a class for every 10 residents :) they have even consumed the community center. I wonder if i as a taxpayer and resident of sebastopol i could use an hour of time , perhaps a couple days a week or weekend to practice in the youth annex or something. i take my drums in - play- take them out. no one in the vicinity of the annex is affected by the sound. well what do you think. is there a fee for reservations, what other ways could the community provide for bands to have an acceptable venue for their art and perhaps even profit a little?? .... whew long post !

[lynn]

While struggling with my own noise problems here...An older friend, Robert, related a story to me awhile ago about a noise problem he had many yrs. ago when he lived in a townhouse in Alameda...

His neighbor liked to play music and turn his bass up...It was pretty loud, and would vibrate Robert's walls, so he talked to his neighbor about it...But Mr. Loud Music kept blowin' him off...So, Robert decided to give him a dose of his own medicine...He got Stadium speaker's, 36" tall and set 'em up facing each other right against Mr. Loud Musics shared wall...The next time Mr. Loud Music turned on his stereo....Robert blasted his recording of the Tehachapi earthquake right back...

End of problem...Real pronto...

(I love that story!)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't add much to Karen's or Miles' posts...they were 'right on the money'...

And while it's true it's nice for kids to play music, have fun...creative expression and all that...Noise is becoming a big problem...and so is disrespect, and a complete lack of thought regarding the word 'civil'...It seems this 'garage band' had this problem...

Now, personally, I always thought to be civil would mean that if I'm bothering someone, and intruding on their private space, by playing, or blasting music loud enough that it actually bothers them enough so they find a need to come over and tell me about it...Then it's my 'duty', or obligation if I wish to be a decent citizen to turn my music down, and maybe find out from the complaining party when I might be able to play my music a little louder - like when they aren't home...

Noise has become a very big problem at times for many people, since more and more people are living closer together, and many seem to think it's just fine to blast their bass woofers right through everyone's walls, add loud obnoxious sounding pipes to their motorcycles, or cars, or leave their dogs barking...etc.

I'm drivin' or stopped at the light and someone's bass is blastin' so loud I can't even tell where it's comin' from and I have to hold my ears shut. This is a pretty bad breakdown of civility....which is contained in the concept and practice of civilization, or is suppose to anyway...

The idea that those of us 'bothered' must walk around with earplugs in our ears...is beyond 'ludicrous'...it points to the breakdown of recognized civil standards regarding behavior and common courtesy within the public sphere...

Woofers blasting, people using cell phones constantly while in public or driving, all point to this breakdown and lack of civility...

----------------------------------------

To the person who suggested one move to 'The Country' if bothered by noise....It WAS like country around here where I live in SR...nice and quiet...Sometimes it still is....But due to the fact that the city likes to overdevelop and cram people in like rats now, which creates more traffic, rude drivers and noise problems due to this 'civility problem'...I do want to move now to a quieter spot...But, alas, due to some very unfortunate circumstances, caused by a noise problem...I can't afford it...

If you would be willing to buy me a nice modest house in the area of my choice...I will be glad to move there...Thanks!...

Or, why don't the people who like to be noisy...buy a bunch of acres so they can maybe blast music loud, or be noisy without bothering someone...

(As Miles suggested...maybe communities should invest in some soundproof 'practice rooms' - at the teen centers, so kids and others could practice there...?)...

[lynn]

If anyone is interested in solving the problems of noise...Here are some links that speak to this...


https://www.nonoise.org/library/civnsov/civnsov.htm

https://www.noiseoff.org/

[Seb21]

I recently became aware of wacco due to a past discussion of garage bands creating too much noise.

This reminded me of another situation over 20 years ago, in which a man complained about the laughter of children from a daycare at 2PM every day(it was his nap time). He also wasted valuable community resources trying to compel everyone in the area to meet his desires. Bottom line: HE MOVED!

Why did Maureen buy a home in a neighborhood with families, children, schools, and a love of the arts? Maybe she should set an example for the band by agreeing not to teach or play music herself! If she is the only one in the area that has a problem with the band, the band is not the problem, she is!

I also wonder Maureen, if you have taken the time to ask your own neighbors if YOU do anything that bothers them? You say you close your doors and windows, but are you sure your neighbors are not having to listen anyway? How about the extra traffic you bring to your neighbors streets?

Do every taxpayer in Sebastopol a favor. Stop trying to use the city resources to make your neighbors conform to your desires. Get off your high horse and become a part of this great community, or move to a community that has what you want.

[broadbandersnatch]

Whoa! So many reactions-so many points of view-so much twittering on all sides of the fence.

I am bemused to find that one respondant writes that this teacher should reach out to these "kids' and offer to give free lessons, to moderate a "battle of the garage bands" etc. I would like to point out that nowhere in Maureen's post is there a single mention of these garage bands being comprised of adolescents. But once the presumption that these are our teens (fercrissake!) we're talking about , Oy! Such a brouhaha! How dare this outsider, this effete snob attack the free expression of (gasp,) our children!!?!? What a funny bunch we all are.

Now there are of course, plenty of garage bands in Sonoma County, some of which are made up of adults and some children. And even if there are kids involved, it is my firm opinion that it is a shared responsibility to deal with the problem of noise in our community whether it be a "creative" noise of a thrash metal band or the maddening din of a leaf blower fanatic on a two hour cleanup mission.

While up until now there have been no official noise ordinances in west county, I understand that with the new general plan, that is about to change. I look forward to seeing what our sage community leaders have come up with. In the mean time, wouldn't it be nice if we trusted one another enough to discuss these issues rather than quietly stew over them?

The obvious thing to do is to discuss the problem with the noisy neighbor and hopefully come up with a solution that is mutually satisfactory. It IS possible to seriously reduce the sound of a garage band's joyful noise if one decides to go about doing it. Just one example: There is now a kind of sheet rock that is no thicker (although admittedly more expensive) than the normal stuff that dampens sound radically. It really works. Perhaps Maureen could research this product and even suggest that she would be willing to help install it one saturday, maybe even pitch in a few bucks? Now there's a real win win solution, that is, if everybody agrees.

People, we must remember that one person's music is another person's pain. True, everyone has a right to express themselves, but I firmly believe we also have a civic responsibility not to force our recreational sounds on our neighbors. I am not being a nazi here- the occasional party with a live band notwithstanding, I contend that the regular imposition of high decibel sounds, regardless of the source, can place a severe strain on neighborhood relations. I doubt many of you would approve if I happened to say, enjoy making stinkbombs for fun and profit in my garage.The smells would not stay in my little garage laboratory, but would serenely waft into your barbecue, sort of like...olfactory heavy metal. (And don't get me talking about second hand smoke!!)

Isn't it odd how sympathies for the rights of the individual extends to the sense of smell, yet when it comes to sounds, the complainant is villified as a bad neighbor and effete party pooper?

Maureen has few choices.

She can move.

Or she can try to talk with her neighbors to work together on a solution as I suggested earlier.If the parties fail to come to some sort of agreement and if the garage band in question is playing in violation of the new noise ordinance (whatever they may be,), she can file a complaint. Not a "nice" way to deal with neighbors and not a happy road to travel for all parties concerned and certainly not a great way to promote good vibes in the neighborhood, but hey, shit happens.

It's interesting to note that one person used the word 'entitlement' with regards to Maureen's post. Couldn't one make an equally valid arguement that those whose proclivity is to create a high decibel wall of sound on their day off feel "entitled" to make their sounds without regard for those who would rather listen to the birds on their saturday afternoon?

Hmmmm.....

(By the way, hearing loss and tinnitus due to high decibel noise exposure is affecting our entire society, including our kids. It is becoming epidemic in our society. )




Dear Maureen and others,

Rohnert Park's noise ordinance has saved my sanity. Next to me is a guy with a truck that far exceeds the ordinance's allowable levels. He would start his truck and let it warm up for 15 minutes right beside my bedroom. I stay up late and sleep late, but for at least a year, I was staying up late and waking up early. He didnt seem to mind that is was a problem for me, saying he has to go to work. That may be true, but he has to figure out a way to do that with out ruining my health, for instance, buying a proper muffler or parking elsewhere. The police have cleared that up for him and I wake when I should now. I feel much stronger, happier, healthier.

Too much noise is not good for people or animals or even plants. We need to be respectful of that. It degrades our environment, impacts our nervous and immune systems and diminishes our hearing.

I have a friend with a studio in a tract housing setting. He has soundproofing, of course. I think everyone who is planning on making a lot of noise needs to be respectful of others and contain it. Ordinances are a formal way of stating and enforcing that sensitivity to the rights of others. I urge you to get a noise ordinance as soon as possible. :thumbsup:

[broadbandersnatch]

I couldn't agree more with this post. I think the noise issue is indicative of a much deeper problem: the loss of civility in our society. To throw back a word that has been used in this discussion, there is a pervasive sense of entitlement in our culture, not just confined to the noise makers or those offended by them, butacross the board. What seems to be communicated is an attitude that can be summed up in the statement, "I can do whatever I want. You got a problem with that?" You see evidence of this on the road, on the street and in our neighborhoods. It's not relegated to a particular demographic. Its frightening to me that our society has become to selfish and so splintered. We have seen how communities come together in times of disasters. Why do we as a society need to have our asses kicked to find our compassionate hearts in order to come together as community?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't add much to Karen's or Miles' posts...they were 'right on the money'...

And while it's true it's nice for kids to play music, have fun...creative expression and all that...Noise is becoming a big problem...and so is disrespect, and a complete lack of thought regarding the word 'civil'...It seems this 'garage band' had this problem...

Now, personally, I always thought to be civil would mean that if I'm bothering someone, and intruding on their private space, by playing, or blasting music loud enough that it actually bothers them enough so they find a need to come over and tell me about it...Then it's my 'duty', or obligation if I wish to be a decent citizen to turn my music down, and maybe find out from the complaining party when I might be able to play my music a little louder - like when they aren't home...

Noise has become a very big problem at times for many people, since more and more people are living closer together, and many seem to think it's just fine to blast their bass woofers right through everyone's walls, add loud obnoxious sounding pipes to their motorcycles, or cars, or leave their dogs barking...etc.

I'm drivin' or stopped at the light and someone's bass is blastin' so loud I can't even tell where it's comin' from and I have to hold my ears shut. This is a pretty bad breakdown of civility....which is contained in the concept and practice of civilization, or is suppose to anyway...

The idea that those of us 'bothered' must walk around with earplugs in our ears...is beyond 'ludicrous'...it points to the breakdown of recognized civil standards regarding behavior and common courtesy within the public sphere...

Woofers blasting, people using cell phones constantly while in public or driving, all point to this breakdown and lack of civility...

----------------------------------------

To the person who suggested one move to 'The Country' if bothered by noise....It WAS like country around here where I live in SR...nice and quiet...Sometimes it still is....But due to the fact that the city likes to overdevelop and cram people in like rats now, which creates more traffic, rude drivers and noise problems due to this 'civility problem'...I do want to move now to a quieter spot...But, alas, due to some very unfortunate circumstances, caused by a noise problem...I can't afford it...

If you would be willing to buy me a nice modest house in the area of my choice...I will be glad to move there...Thanks!...

Or, why don't the people who like to be noisy...buy a bunch of acres so they can maybe blast music loud, or be noisy without bothering someone...

(As Miles suggested...maybe communities should invest in some soundproof 'practice rooms' - at the teen centers, so kids and others could practice there...?)...[/QUOTE]

[Karen]

Broadsnatch wrote:

It's interesting to note that one person used the word 'entitlement' with regards to Maureen's post. Couldn't one make an equally valid arguement that those whose proclivity is to create a high decibel wall of sound on their day off feel "entitled" to make their sounds without regard for those who would rather listen to the birds on their saturday afternoon?

One could make that assertion, certainly. Many do. Being an open minded person I'm sure you'd enjoy reading some thoughts from the noise-reductionists. I take the following quotes from an essay (https://www.nonoise.org/library/civnsov/civnsov.htm ) by Les Bloomberg, executive director of Noise Pollution Clearinghouse. It's called "Noise, Sovereignty and Civility". I encourage you to read the whole essay. It has many points to ponder. For now, start here:


Noise is unwanted sound. It causes hearing loss, stress, high blood pressure, sleep loss, lost productivity, and a general reduction in the quality of life and opportunity for personal and collective tranquility....

Combating noise is part of a larger struggle to politically and legally establish sovereignty and control over common or public property. People working to reduce noise are environmentalists seeking an ethic of the commons. Our success is tied directly to other environmental causes. The battle against noise is strengthened when other environmentalists succeed, and weakened when they fail. As the term sovereignty suggests, it is inherently a political struggle. This has several implications for persons seeking to effectively control noise. In addition to the obvious one, supporting efforts to reduce noise, friends of quiet should:

Support initiatives that treat noise as a pollutant (for example, efforts to reopen the EPA’s noise office, stronger regulation of transportation related noise, etc.).
Join forces with environmentalists and build coalitions with environmentalists to educate them about noise.
Support environmental causes unrelated to noise such as efforts to control global warming, acid rain, smog, etc.
Support environmentally concerned candidates and initiatives.
Work against property rights and "wise use" movement candidates and initiatives.
...the typical noise making bully in America today is a business. Most people would have thought the "neighbor from hell" would be an intimidating bully who lives next door. While they exist, businesses eclipse individuals for the title of "neighbor from hell" by an order of magnitude.

The reason businesses are the worst offenders is that political power is on their side. Local governments are unwilling or unable to challenge them, while they do crack down on individuals...


When some people choose not to be a good neighbor, laws must be passed to force neighborliness upon them. This is an unfortunate but all too common necessity in modern society. Laws forcing people to be good neighbors are much less desirable than people acting as good neighbors out of choice. The Noise Pollution Clearinghouse has developed a Good Neighbor Policy (https://www.nonoise.org/library/civnsov/civnsov.htm#Policy) to use as a guideline for respect within a community. Obviously, it can be modified for different communities depending on their needs.