Electric cars struggle to spark enthusiasm | Business | guardian.co.uk (https://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jan/15/electric-cars-detroit-motor-show)
ANDREW CLARK - The Guardian (U.K.)
DETROIT -- With a curiously squashed, elongated body, the Tango electrically-powered car is as narrow as a single passenger and as nippy as a motorbike. Billed as the world's fastest urban car, it can reach a speed of 130mph. Satisfied customers include the actor George Clooney, and its inventor describes the bizarre vehicle as a "chick magnet".
Built by a US start-up called Commuter Cars, the Tango takes up only half a traffic lane. It can carry two people tandem-style in slightly cramped comfort. Without the need for gears, its battery-powered engine can accelerate from zero to 60mph in four seconds and, with a racing car-style roll cage design, the Tango is supposedly as robust as a Volvo estate car.
"It's unequivocally the fastest car you can buy for an urban environment," says Commuter Cars' president, Rick Woodbury, who has sold 11 of the vehicles so far, at a hefty price of $150,000 (å£90,000) each, including a recent delivery to a customer in Surrey. "I drove through Times Square and had girls throwing their arms around me."
The Tango is among the quirkier exhibits on Electric Avenue, a corner of the Detroit motor show devoted to electrically-powered vehicles. Visitors this week included speaker of the US House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi, and the governor of Michigan, Jennifer Granholm. Every manufacturer of any note, from General Motors to Toyota, Mitsubishi and Hyundai, has a plug-in car or, at the very least, a petrol-electric hybrid on display, usually involving the letter "e", as in the BMW ActiveE prototype and the Audi e-tron sports car.
The future of motoring, according to political and environmental enthusiasts, is electric. But this mantra has been repeated, in different forms, for almost a decade and many industry experts feel that it is hard to find a true groundswell of enthusiasm among consumers.
Held back
Twelve years ago, the Toyota Prius broke new ground as the first mass-market hybrid car. Hybrid technology, combining electric batteries with a petrol-driven back-up engine, is well established. But barely 1% of industry sales last year were hybrid or electrically powered vehicles. PricewaterhouseCoopers' automotive institute expects to see a small rise to 4% by 2015.
"What's holding them back?" asks Anthony Pratt, a PricewaterhouseCoopers analyst. "Cost." The starting price for a Prius in Britain is å£19,500. A Toyota Avensis, with a conventional petrol engine, starts at å£16,800.
Typically, buying an environmentally friendly car involves a premium of several thousand pounds, and the recession has not helped. Pratt says: "When people begin to look to do more with less, they became less concerned with the environment and more worried about trying to balance the budget."
Toyota this week showcased a smaller, cheaper version of the Prius called the FT-CH concept. Its Japanese rival, Nissan, displayed a pure electric plug-in car called the Leaf, which is already on the market in Japan and will hit US showrooms this year, arriving in Britain in 2012. It has a socket in its bonnet and needs to be recharged every 100 miles. At a turbo-powered quick charging station, re-energising the batteries takes 26 minutes; a home charging station will take eight hours.
Mitsubishi has a similar model, the MiEV prototype (short for Mitsubishi Innovative Electric Vehicle). With their relatively short range, these vehicles are aimed at commuters and are suitable for commercial use in towns 䴋 by, for example, postal services and restaurants delivering food. But until somebody builds a network of electric charging stations, they are awkward for longer trips.
That, according to Jim Hall, an automotive expert at 2953 Analytics, a Detroit-based research company, is a major sticking point: "The average American sees a car as a tool that must be able to do everything. Our cars are viewed as Swiss army knives."
Another reason, Hall believes, for the slow take-up of electric vehicles is that consumers most concerned about the environment also tend to be "late adopters" who are suspicious of impenetrable technology: "They'll be concerned about the nickel in the batteries 䴋 the fact that nickel must be mined and that nickel is toxic."
New ideas
Other ideas are being tested. Hyundai showed off a prototype called the Blue-Will this week, with roof-mounted solar cells to help recharge its lithium batteries. Tesla Motors, a small Silicon Valley company, has come up with a way to extend the range of a battery-powered car. Its test drivers recently managed to go 313 miles through the Australian Outback on a single charge.
But the most keenly awaited mainstream "green" launch will be GM's Chevrolet Volt, a hybrid that can go 40 miles on a single electric charge but then harness power from its internal combustion engine to generate more electricity on the go, extending its range to hundreds of miles from one tank of petrol. The Volt, which will cost about $40,000, will go on sale in the US late this year, but GM's vice-chairman for product development, Bob Lutz, admits that it will not be much of a moneyspinner.
"If we did it purely for profitability, we wouldn't be doing it," said Lutz, who predicts that even in a decade's time, at least 90% of cars sold will still be powered by internal combustion. "Other than 5% of the public who will willingly make a sacrifice to buy green vehicles, the other 95% of people will ask, 'What am I getting 䴋 what's the deal?' They're not going to spend $5,000 to $6,000 on technology they don't need."
There is a legislative incentive to lead the public towards greener cars. The Obama administration has tightened standards for fuel efficiency and ordered manufacturers to cut emissions from new vehicles sold in the US by 30% by 2016. But raising taxes on fuel, which would concentrate consumers' minds, has proved too risky to contemplate for politicians on either side of the Atlantic.
As recently as 2005, research by JD Power, the marketing information company, found that US buyers cared more about the number of cup holders in a new vehicle than its miles-to-gallon ratio. A 2008 spike in oil prices changed that, prompting a shift towards smaller cars, yet still an electric "revolution" on the roads remains a distant prospect. Plug-in cars face a long, tough battle to break beyond a small but devoted audience of Hollywood stars, eccentrics and passionate environmentalists.
Hotspring 44
01-19-2010, 10:32 PM
The NiMH battery technology has been stifled and "hidden" by (in most part [in my opinion]) by both GM & Chevron Oil Company.
NiMH batteries are recyclable, there is plenty of mineral deposits in USA to not be "dependent" on foreign entities.
On the other hand, Lion (Lithium-Ion) Batteries requires extensive mining in more than just USA. USA does not have sufficient mineral deposits of Lithium for our own potential Market; so forget about any profitable exporting of that technology without outright exploitation of other people and lands.
Also, as of yet the Lithium-ion batteries are NOT recyclable, they are extremely expensive,:spentmoney: and they don't last long enough for reasonable automotive service to be anywhere near worth the (high) cost.
here are some links that may help clarify some of the less known suppression of the viability of the already proven NiMH (the EV1). Revenge of the EV1: crushing EV1 crushed GM (https://ev1.org/)
Revenge of the EV1: crushing EV1 crushed GM (https://ev1.org/#True)
EV WORLD COMMENTATOR PERSPECTIVES [BLOGS] (https://evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?authorid=51&blogid=762)
Update on Cobasys, here: Bosch-Samsung battery venture buys Cobasys — Autoblog Green (https://green.autoblog.com/2009/07/17/bosch-samsung-battery-venture-buys-cobasys/)
The whole EV thing right now is all about a scam to limit EV's to either rich-man's market or home builders that are willing to use Lead Acid Batteries in converted cars.:2cents:
The main market Auto manufactures, Oil companies, and the Revenuer don't want you to have solar panels to power your commuter EV unless they can make more $$$ than from Fossil Fuel cars. :2cents:
As usual the marketeers will not get their collective boots off of the throats of the average consumer. :2cents:
The fact is that NiMH batteries are proven to be viable for EV's. But they have been virtually hidden from existence as a real viable storage battery source specifically for EV's by Big Oil and internal combustion engine interests.
Electric cars struggle to spark enthusiasm | Business | guardian.co.uk (https://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jan/15/electric-cars-detroit-motor-show)
ANDREW CLARK - The Guardian (U.K.)
DETROIT -- With a curiously squashed, elongated body, the Tango electrically-powered car is as narrow as a single passenger and as nippy as a motorbike. Billed as the world's fastest urban car, it can reach a speed of 130mph. Satisfied customers include the actor George Clooney, and its inventor describes the bizarre vehicle as a "chick magnet".
Built by a US start-up called Commuter Cars, the Tango takes up only half a traffic lane. It can carry two people tandem-style in slightly cramped comfort. Without the need for gears, its battery-powered engine can accelerate from zero to 60mph in four seconds and, with a racing car-style roll cage design, the Tango is supposedly as robust as a Volvo estate car.
"It's unequivocally the fastest car you can buy for an urban environment," says Commuter Cars' president, Rick Woodbury, who has sold 11 of the vehicles so far, at a hefty price of $150,000 (å£90,000) each, including a recent delivery to a customer in Surrey. "I drove through Times Square and had girls throwing their arms around me."
The Tango is among the quirkier exhibits on Electric Avenue, a corner of the Detroit motor show devoted to electrically-powered vehicles. Visitors this week included speaker of the US House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi, and the governor of Michigan, Jennifer Granholm. Every manufacturer of any note, from General Motors to Toyota, Mitsubishi and Hyundai, has a plug-in car or, at the very least, a petrol-electric hybrid on display, usually involving the letter "e", as in the BMW ActiveE prototype and the Audi e-tron sports car.
The future of motoring, according to political and environmental enthusiasts, is electric. But this mantra has been repeated, in different forms, for almost a decade and many industry experts feel that it is hard to find a true groundswell of enthusiasm among consumers.
Held back
Twelve years ago, the Toyota Prius broke new ground as the first mass-market hybrid car. Hybrid technology, combining electric batteries with a petrol-driven back-up engine, is well established. But barely 1% of industry sales last year were hybrid or electrically powered vehicles. PricewaterhouseCoopers' automotive institute expects to see a small rise to 4% by 2015.
"What's holding them back?" asks Anthony Pratt, a PricewaterhouseCoopers analyst. "Cost." The starting price for a Prius in Britain is å£19,500. A Toyota Avensis, with a conventional petrol engine, starts at å£16,800.
Typically, buying an environmentally friendly car involves a premium of several thousand pounds, and the recession has not helped. Pratt says: "When people begin to look to do more with less, they became less concerned with the environment and more worried about trying to balance the budget."
Toyota this week showcased a smaller, cheaper version of the Prius called the FT-CH concept. Its Japanese rival, Nissan, displayed a pure electric plug-in car called the Leaf, which is already on the market in Japan and will hit US showrooms this year, arriving in Britain in 2012. It has a socket in its bonnet and needs to be recharged every 100 miles. At a turbo-powered quick charging station, re-energising the batteries takes 26 minutes; a home charging station will take eight hours.
Mitsubishi has a similar model, the MiEV prototype (short for Mitsubishi Innovative Electric Vehicle). With their relatively short range, these vehicles are aimed at commuters and are suitable for commercial use in towns 䴋 by, for example, postal services and restaurants delivering food. But until somebody builds a network of electric charging stations, they are awkward for longer trips.
That, according to Jim Hall, an automotive expert at 2953 Analytics, a Detroit-based research company, is a major sticking point: "The average American sees a car as a tool that must be able to do everything. Our cars are viewed as Swiss army knives."
Another reason, Hall believes, for the slow take-up of electric vehicles is that consumers most concerned about the environment also tend to be "late adopters" who are suspicious of impenetrable technology: "They'll be concerned about the nickel in the batteries 䴋 the fact that nickel must be mined and that nickel is toxic."
New ideas
Other ideas are being tested. Hyundai showed off a prototype called the Blue-Will this week, with roof-mounted solar cells to help recharge its lithium batteries. Tesla Motors, a small Silicon Valley company, has come up with a way to extend the range of a battery-powered car. Its test drivers recently managed to go 313 miles through the Australian Outback on a single charge.
But the most keenly awaited mainstream "green" launch will be GM's Chevrolet Volt, a hybrid that can go 40 miles on a single electric charge but then harness power from its internal combustion engine to generate more electricity on the go, extending its range to hundreds of miles from one tank of petrol. The Volt, which will cost about $40,000, will go on sale in the US late this year, but GM's vice-chairman for product development, Bob Lutz, admits that it will not be much of a moneyspinner.
"If we did it purely for profitability, we wouldn't be doing it," said Lutz, who predicts that even in a decade's time, at least 90% of cars sold will still be powered by internal combustion. "Other than 5% of the public who will willingly make a sacrifice to buy green vehicles, the other 95% of people will ask, 'What am I getting 䴋 what's the deal?' They're not going to spend $5,000 to $6,000 on technology they don't need."
There is a legislative incentive to lead the public towards greener cars. The Obama administration has tightened standards for fuel efficiency and ordered manufacturers to cut emissions from new vehicles sold in the US by 30% by 2016. But raising taxes on fuel, which would concentrate consumers' minds, has proved too risky to contemplate for politicians on either side of the Atlantic.
As recently as 2005, research by JD Power, the marketing information company, found that US buyers cared more about the number of cup holders in a new vehicle than its miles-to-gallon ratio. A 2008 spike in oil prices changed that, prompting a shift towards smaller cars, yet still an electric "revolution" on the roads remains a distant prospect. Plug-in cars face a long, tough battle to break beyond a small but devoted audience of Hollywood stars, eccentrics and passionate environmentalists.
someguy
01-20-2010, 08:18 AM
Maybe part of the reason this electric car thing isn't catching on is because electric cars don't solve the real problem, which is pollution and the burning of fossil fuels. What difference does it make if the pollution is produced at a power plant burning coal or inside of your car? It's still pollution. It seems like people who buy hybrid or electric cars are paying for the luxury of not having to see the pollution being produced. Out of sight, out of mind, right?
Hotspring 44
01-20-2010, 12:02 PM
Maybe part of the reason this electric car thing isn't catching on is because electric cars don't solve the real problem, which is pollution and the burning of fossil fuels.someguy, did you even check any of the the links I provided, or are you just talking out of your hat?
Far from a shortage of electric, being able to buy a plug-in car would actually help the utility grid. (https://drivingthefuture.com/electcan.htm) The EV1 charges slowly, at night, when there is too much electric; and the money you save NOT buying gasoline will more than pay for your rooftop solar PV system. This isn't fantasy, it's FACT; hundreds of Toyota RAV4-EV drivers put solar on their roof and now drive for free, free of pollution and free of cost since the money they saved paid it off years ago. But you can't do this unless you can buy a plug-in car, none are offered for sale by the Auto Alliance. <o:p></o:p>
Revenge of the EV1: crushing EV1 crushed GM (https://ev1.org/)
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Human population may be the crux of the so-called "real problem"; no?
What difference does it make if the pollution is produced at a power plant burning coal or inside of your car? It's still pollution. It seems like people who buy hybrid or electric cars are paying for the luxury of not having to see the pollution being produced. Out of sight, out of mind, right?
1. Not all electrical power comes from coal fired power plants.
2. Wind & solar are becoming more available and less expensive as time goes on.
3. The auto manufacturers are hung-up on internal combustion engine design so they don't honestly want to go plug-in electric because they seem to be waiting for someone else to start the popularity boom first, then they, like sharks on chum will get into the fray only after someone else invests in the plug-in electric automobile wholeheartedly and gets the thing really working.
4. Chevron oil is withholding the best (affordable, recyclable) battery (NiMH) patent for use as battery for EV's as of yet.
5. The LiON (Lithium-ion) battery is not yet recyclable and is far too costly.
6. To go up against one of the biggest oil companies on earth; Toyota with the Rav4 using the NiMH system decided to give-up that instead of going with the pending lawsuit from Chevron Oil. Toyota was likly to prevail in that suit but that would have drained too much capitol for it to be worth it for Toyota to go with it.
Cars use of energy regarding fossil fuels is far more inefficient than a power plant is. Natural gas is also in the future going to take the place of coal in some places.
As far as your statement; ..."the luxury of not having to see the pollution being produced." in some sense is factual only because of the high cost of Lithium-ion batteries, the weight of Lead Acid batteries, and the suppression of the NiMH battery system by the oil industry. Also the Prius as it is now is a placebo, and not really any way near it's potential; not enough all electric range and the available extra range battery systems are not cost effective.
Hotspring 44
01-20-2010, 12:10 PM
Here is another link that I forgot to put into my last post:
YouTube - liveoilfree's Channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/liveoilfree)
Hotspring 44
01-20-2010, 12:24 PM
Here is a more specific link to the question of the topic of why "Electric Cars Struggle To Spark Enthusiasm".
because of the misleading propaganda in reference to the range of EV's and to the question of "why did GM kill the electric car":
YouTube - ECarCo 1: Searching for an Electric car (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMah0GuQvfY&feature=related)
Here is another link that I forgot to put into my last post:
YouTube - liveoilfree's Channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/liveoilfree)
someguy
01-20-2010, 02:14 PM
someguy, did you even check any of the the links I provided, or are you just talking out of your hat?
1. Not all electrical power comes from coal fired power plants.
2. Wind & solar are becoming more available and less expensive as time goes on.
3. The auto manufacturers are hung-up on internal combustion engine design so they don't honestly want to go plug-in electric because they seem to be waiting for someone else to start the popularity boom first, then they, like sharks on chum will get into the fray only after someone else invests in the plug-in electric automobile wholeheartedly and gets the thing really working.
4. Chevron oil is withholding the best (affordable, recyclable) battery (NiMH) patent for use as battery for EV's as of yet.
5. The LiON (Lithium-ion) battery is not yet recyclable and is far too costly.
6. To go up against one of the biggest oil companies on earth; Toyota with the Rav4 using the NiMH system decided to give-up that instead of going with the pending lawsuit from Chevron Oil. Toyota was likly to prevail in that suit but that would have drained too much capitol for it to be worth it for Toyota to go with it.
Cars use of energy regarding fossil fuels is far more inefficient than a power plant is. Natural gas is also in the future going to take the place of coal in some places.
As far as your statement; ..."the luxury of not having to see the pollution being produced." in some sense is factual only because of the high cost of Lithium-ion batteries, the weight of Lead Acid batteries, and the suppression of the NiMH battery system by the oil industry. Also the Prius as it is now is a placebo, and not really any way near it's potential; not enough all electric range and the available extra range battery systems are not cost effective.
Mostly hat. Can you explain how charging your car slowly at night will be basically free or extremely low cost enough to where you'd suddenly have money to buy solar panels? As far as I know, electricity costs me way more per month than gasoline. And if I added on a car to my current electric use, my costs would be through the roof!!! Its not like electricity is free at night. Are you talking about just enough solar panels to charge your car, or your entire house? I could see how charging your car with a couple of small panels could pay itself off. And if you charge it at night like you said, well the problem is lack of sun, and batteries for solar panels lose power quickly. I think this is too much hassle to be worth it right now, maybe in the future when more solar and wind technology finds more and more people, but until then its not worth it for the average American.
Hotspring 44
01-20-2010, 08:43 PM
1 example; the solar panels during the day would offset the grid input to your electric bill with credits during peak summer daytime. Then at night during the off-peak time your EV could charge while it is parked.
More solar panels would further offset the grid-load even more so in theory if you had a 2nd EV (Motorcycle?) that would be fully charged when you get home from work so you could go to wherever (party, shopping, visit relatives or friends, county or state park, beach etc.). within 20 mile radius (with electric motorbike and up to 240 miles with EV1 type EV and More if charging station is available in parking lot near where you go).
Over the lifetime of the solar panels, the fluctuations of gasoline and diesel prices going in the general direction of up, and the cost of oil changes engine & transmission <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CSH%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->maintenance it evens the playing field. The bigest gap is the NiMH battery conundrum issue.
Here are even more links that help explain that.
EV1: GM and Chevron killed the Electric car (https://www.youtube.com/user/liveoilfree#p/a/9A4AD061C76569A5/0/8Q0pjyJyGbI)
RAV4-EV Battery story - part one (1) (https://www.youtube.com/user/liveoilfree#p/a/DB5C8A15D842D0C4/0/pDRBRuvct54)
RAV4-EV Battery story - part two (2) (https://www.youtube.com/user/liveoilfree#p/a/DB5C8A15D842D0C4/1/Waqep7f59ho)
True that during winter months in Sonoma County there is not very much sun (fog instead). Also the tall redwoods that shade many places, plus the canyons and all that. But during the summer in many places in Sonoma County, the solar panels could build-up the grid credits over time enough to be worth it to have a commuter EV.
Also some PG&E electric off-peak programs have less cost during those (off-peak) hours for electric usage.
Also there have been low cost loans and State tax credits for the installation of photovoltaic solar panels here in CA.
Mostly hat. Can you explain how charging your car slowly at night will be basically free or extremely low cost enough to where you'd suddenly have money to buy solar panels? As far as I know, electricity costs me way more per month than gasoline. And if I added on a car to my current electric use, my costs would be through the roof!!! Its not like electricity is free at night. Are you talking about just enough solar panels to charge your car, or your entire house? I could see how charging your car with a couple of small panels could pay itself off. And if you charge it at night like you said, well the problem is lack of sun, and batteries for solar panels lose power quickly. I think this is too much hassle to be worth it right now, maybe in the future when more solar and wind technology finds more and more people, but until then its not worth it for the average American.
Hotspring 44
01-21-2010, 02:37 PM
Hrre is some explanation from an e mail i got just today that explains in layman's terms why the grid is "helped" by slow charging EV's at night during off-peak hours and also one billing option available to some electric customers that would mitigate cost of electric power the utility company noted is in in So CA. PG&E has similar schemes in Nor Cal. <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CSH%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} table.MsoTableGrid {mso-style-name:"Table Grid"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; border:solid windowtext 1.0pt; mso-border-alt:solid windowtext .5pt; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-border-insideh:.5pt solid windowtext; mso-border-insidev:.5pt solid windowtext; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> <table class="MsoTableGrid" style="border: medium none ; border-collapse: collapse;" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top"> Off-peak charging of a plug-in car actually HELPS THE GRID.
Honest utility execs will tell you so. When I asked DWP why they left all their power on at night, one engineer told me, enigmatically, "load balancing" — which cashes out to the fact that it's more difficult to bring big generators down to "warm start" than it is to just keep them producing. So they'd rather burn off the excess power at night than bring down the generators, a dirty and expensive process.
If you look at our electric usage curve, on
https://caiso. com (https://caiso.com/)
you will detect that the only time we come even close to a shortage of electric is in the daytime peak summer months (weekdays only!). The rest of the time, electric goes begging. DWP uses excess electric at night to pump water up to Lake Castaic via six giant pump/generators, "storing" power from the DC Pacific States Power Grid that otherwise would be wasted. Even with the small losses of pumping and generating, the total cost (4 cents per kWh) is far less than the COGS-determined daytime peak cost of over 40 cents per kWh. The next day, the pumps turn into generators, and the "stored" electric reinforces the grid ... just as rooftop solar power helps in the daytime peak.
Now look. If you charge an EV at night, you are soaking up power that they want to get rid of! And, contrary to the maniacs who think EV have to fast-charge, SLOW CHARGING is the best; you want the utilities to be running all night at the same rate, not fast charging at 9 pm. And really, unless you are in the wrong job, your car is sitting idle almost all the time: if it's true that the average drive is 30 miles per day, that's at most 1 hour, even in clogged traffic; the other 23 hours, the car could be charging, getting ready for its one hour of glory!!
Conversely, the solar rooftop systems that EV drivers put in place generate power during the daytime peak. Using "Time of Use" pricing, if you ask for it, you get extra credit for valuable daytime power.
Each of these systems lowers the daytime peak, and lessens the argument for new power plants that only run during peak periods of excess usage. Put another way, the money goes into hardware on your roof that you get to keep, not into burning coal in the desert or running a nuke power plant.
So it's a synergistic BENEFIT to the grid, not a strain, for EVs and plug-ins to charge at night (although they COULD charge in the daytime, right off the solar system) and for the solar system to pump power into the grid when it needs it — daytime peak.
So we LOWER the problems on the grid, and increase grid reliability. ..lowering the strain on local pole-mounted transformers.
One of Toyota's flunkeys came out with a gross canard, and a lie, that the VOLT-hoax would lead to local outages...what a riot. We're all ROFLAO, a regular laugh-riot.
IF the VOLT-hoax were real, it would actually help the grid. Driving 1000 miles per month on wall power only takes 250 kWh of electric -- about what two old beer refrigerators need, and about a quarter of the average home daily usage.
Why does Toyota lie? Are they aspiring to GM's vaunted place as the biggest liar of all time??
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Mostly hat. Can you explain how charging your car slowly at night will be basically free or extremely low cost enough to where you'd suddenly have money to buy solar panels? As far as I know, electricity costs me way more per month than gasoline. And if I added on a car to my current electric use, my costs would be through the roof!!! Its not like electricity is free at night. Are you talking about just enough solar panels to charge your car, or your entire house? I could see how charging your car with a couple of small panels could pay itself off. And if you charge it at night like you said, well the problem is lack of sun, and batteries for solar panels lose power quickly. I think this is too much hassle to be worth it right now, maybe in the future when more solar and wind technology finds more and more people, but until then its not worth it for the average American.