Mediums - Worthwhile or Hoax? [Archive]

Clancy

01-08-2010, 09:58 AM

How convenient. All those billions of dead people clamoring to communicate with us but your spiritual mediums can't come up with some simple, conclusive way to prove it's true.

You'd think Einstein or Jesus or Elvis would lend a hand.

And by the way, the paper at your link is NOT a study proving the existence of conscious dead people communicating with the living, it's an overview of the methods used by some people who only CLAIM they communicate with the dead.

Attorney Victor Zammit has effectively demonstrated that, due to its conditions, it not logically possible to win stage magician James Zwinge Randi's "prize" (if the money even exists at all which has yet to be established) and is himself offering $1M to anyone who can refute the collection of evidence for life after death. For more than eight years, Randi, a high school drop-out and night club performer, has not replied. For more information, see "Is Randi's Challenge the Biggest Hoax in History?": randichallengehoax (https://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/randichallengehoax.htm) and SKEPTICS ARGUMENTS WRONG (https://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/) and A LAWYER ON THE SKEPTICS - $1 Million Challenge (https://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/challenge.html)

The testing performed at Windbridge has been peer-reviewed and published and is available for anyone to review in a 32-page journal article posted at https://www.windbridge.org/papers/JP71_2007-2008_Beischel_Methods.pdf

(https://www.windbridge.org/papers/JP71_2007-2008_Beischel_Methods.pdf)

Sciguy

01-09-2010, 03:51 AM

To SusanC
Forget all those dead people on the other side. At least they're pretty quiet (when they aren't rattling chains or is that just Hollywood). The ones that bother me are the families of trolls that live under all the bridges. If they don't like you, they will make your car run off the road while you're crossing their bridge. They communicate with me because I have special troll sensing powers. I challenge you to come up with some kind of proof that they aren't there, just because you didn't think of them first. Oh, by the way they're invisible. In all frequencies. And if you try to touch them your hand goes right through them. But I can see them with my special splistic senses. You believe me don't you? It's your responsibility to prove they aren't there. I don't have to prove anything because I already know what's true. You've got to offer them a toke when you approach the bridge. Okay, toss out a roach; they'll be glad you're trying. They've just begun taking Fastrak too. The trolls are getting very modern. I'm writing a peer reviewed paper in the Journal of Splistic Science that will demonstrate to the world their reality, once and for all.
Paul Palmer

Attorney Victor Zammit has effectively demonstrated that, due to its conditions, it not logically possible to win stage magician James Zwinge Randi's "prize" (if the money even exists at all which has yet to be established) and is himself offering $1M to anyone who can refute the collection of evidence for life after death. For more than eight years, Randi, a high school drop-out and night club performer, has not replied. For more information, see "Is Randi's Challenge the Biggest Hoax in History?": randichallengehoax (https://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/randichallengehoax.htm) and SKEPTICS ARGUMENTS WRONG (https://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/) and A LAWYER ON THE SKEPTICS - $1 Million Challenge (https://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/challenge.html)

The testing performed at Windbridge has been peer-reviewed and published and is available for anyone to review in a 32-page journal article posted at https://www.windbridge.org/papers/JP71_2007-2008_Beischel_Methods.pdf

(https://www.windbridge.org/papers/JP71_2007-2008_Beischel_Methods.pdf)

Yip

01-09-2010, 07:12 PM

It would be nice if that $1.000.000 was "real" money.
Is it somewhere in a bank account?

You'd think they'd collect the famous million dollar reward if they can prove (with "rigorous testing") that they're spiritual mediums...
Challenge Info (https://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html)
And if they're not into it for the money, I assume they don't charge for their mediumship, but, don't you think they owe it to humanity to prove that we're surrounded by billions of conscious dead people without bodies?

The logistics boggle the mind. How do they find a particular dead person in the crowd? Do all the dead people have to somehow keep scanning all the billions of live people for possible incoming communications? I doubt I'll have the patience for that, I can't even keep up with wacco.

Clancy

01-09-2010, 07:28 PM

It would be nice if that $1.000.000 was "real" money.
Is it somewhere in a bank account?

I think I remember reading that when both parties agree on the details of the test, the money goes into an escrow account.

IMO, if someone can really communicate with the dead, acquiring all the millions they could ever want probably wouldn't be much trouble at all. Just set up some circumstance that indisputably shows they've received information that ONLY a dead person could know, do it publicly, and overnight the world would be beating their door down trying to give them more millions for their services.

SusanC

01-10-2010, 10:09 AM

How could you prove that you have information that ONLY a dead person could know? if the dead person was the only one to know it?

Clancy

01-10-2010, 10:36 AM

How could you prove that you have information that ONLY a dead person could know? if the dead person was the only one to know it?

That people claiming to be able to talk to the dead haven't thought this through does not surprise me.

Here are just a few ways it could be proved,

Our aspiring medium could lead the press and scientists to the undisturbed and unexpected burial locations of a few murder victims from long ago, with a description of their remains and cause of death before they’re uncovered. I can imagine that a whole lot of murder victims would love to set the record straight and would be highly motivated to help.

Now that I think of it, why not do it really big, so our spiritual medium can profit handsomely from the get go?

How about publicly disclosing the formerly unknown locations of:

Shipwrecks

Lost plane wrecks

Undisturbed mass graves

Long ago buried or otherwise hidden treasure

Undisturbed burial chambers, archeological treasures and ruins of lost cities and towns from all over the world

Since millions of dead people had first hand knowledge of all the above, but the living obviously don't, it would be very dramatic proof.

Thad

01-10-2010, 10:49 AM

As we peer into the spectrum of light we see what we see and to the slack of mind decide that what we see is what is, and then someone with keener sight discovers more divisions and content than previously stated as truth, and on and on this goes.

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin translates into how many subatomic particles are there as well.

I have an intuition here that the difference between the physical and the metaphysical could find a common focus on the treatment of the square root of two.

It implies a basic sense of order to the universe...as though an invisible structure exists..

So how would science treat that as a beginning proposition?

How could you prove that you have information that ONLY a dead person could know? if the dead person was the only one to know it?

ItsaNewDawn

01-10-2010, 01:53 PM

get a grip dude!
ok got that out. every post ive seen of yours is combative, go out for a run, dude! lol
or maybe its just pushing folks in a good way to learn more about themselves and life.
but i dont see any reason for people to put another down ..as L. Hill says, ''why for you to increase I must decrease?''

about your inquiries... Id assume or guess that each soul or spirit has a different experience dying and the afterlife and cant be compared like u are showing. have u ever seen ghost whisperer? if youre really interested maybe look over the eveidence out there. that show is based on true real experiencce from someone.

for the one asking the original question.....
Id just consciously make an agreement w the one dying and have a sigmal that you will know its him coming around. like lights flickering or whathaveyou. I dont know if its a for sure thing that a medium can meet up w your friend as who knows what his/hers souls journey will be? maybe they will go straight into the Light! yea. or maybe can visit after that? hmm or turn into a guide? or come back again in the circle of life? hmm
how fun to explore these ideas!
I do hope u find someone who can interpret or communicate for you all!! good luck and blessings!

That people claiming to be able to talk to the dead haven't thought this through does not surprise me.

Here are just a few ways it could be proved,

Our aspiring medium could lead the press and scientists to the undisturbed and unexpected burial locations of a few murder victims from long ago, with a description of their remains and cause of death before they’re uncovered. I can imagine that a whole lot of murder victims would love to set the record straight and would be highly motivated to help.

Now that I think of it, why not do it really big, so our spiritual medium can profit handsomely from the get go?

How about publicly disclosing the formerly unknown locations of:

Shipwrecks

Lost plane wrecks

Undisturbed mass graves

Long ago buried or otherwise hidden treasure

Undisturbed burial chambers, archeological treasures and ruins of lost cities and towns from all over the world

Since millions of dead people have first hand knowledge of all the above, but the living obviously don't, it would be very dramatic proof.

Clancy

01-10-2010, 02:55 PM

I'm disappointed that you don't see the beauty of my proposals. If some people really can talk to the dead, following my suggestions would lend them stunning and dramatic credibility, make them astronomically wealthy and create a scientific and spiritual revolution.

If the dead can talk, it's hard to imagine them not talking about the things I listed, don't you think?

We're sinking into a new dark age, I'm just trying to shed a little light.

get a grip dude!
ok got that out. every post ive seen of yours is combative, go out for a run, dude! lol
or maybe its just pushing folks in a good way to learn more about themselves and life.
but i dont see any reason for people to put another down ..as L. Hill says, ''why for you to increase I must decrease?''

about your inquiries... Id assume or guess that each soul or spirit has a different experience dying and the afterlife and cant be compared like u are showing. have u ever seen ghost whisperer? if youre really interested maybe look over the eveidence out there. that show is based on true real experiencce from someone.

for the one asking the original question.....
Id just consciously make an agreement w the one dying and have a sigmal that you will know its him coming around. like lights flickering or whathaveyou. I dont know if its a for sure thing that a medium can meet up w your friend as who knows what his/hers souls journey will be? maybe they will go straight into the Light! yea. or maybe can visit after that? hmm or turn into a guide? or come back again in the circle of life? hmm
how fun to explore these ideas!
I do hope u find someone who can interpret or communicate for you all!! good luck and blessings!

SusanC

01-10-2010, 04:56 PM

Why not do some reading in the field and see what has been done (reported, researched, thought about) - there are some amazing stories out there - in this field and others like it. I just try and remain open to whatever comes my way - then I try and learn what has actually transpired rather than shooting my mouth off just because I have some thoughts that may not agree with others or that I have not researched. For example, my response to the inquiry about finding a medium who has proven to be more than a lot of hot air came from my curiosity - I am not connected with the Windbridge Institute, I just find their site to be very informative. Curiosity is what will save us from the "dark ages" as you call it....not opinions.
Breath deeply....

Sciguy

01-10-2010, 07:46 PM

I find it painful to keep reading this nonsensical stuff. Why is it that people who have no reasonable basis for believing whatever it is they are afflicted with, have to twist and turn in the same predictable ways to avoid being rational.

The first thing they do is to indict anyone with actual knowledge as being closed minded and/ or judgmental and/or too sure of themselves. That is the problem with actually studying and learning and synthesizing. You get to know things. You no longer entertain every kind of wacky rumination about what could be if only we had no idea what the facts were. We know some facts, and they make sense, and we are no longer interested in pretending that we know nothing.

The people I know, who are clever and well-studied and well-informed are virtually without exception open to learning new facts if it turns out that some fact or theory is actually wrong. That goes with the territory.

Susan wants Clancy to remain open to "stories". What? Stories are great for children but they are not facts. Everyone has experiences that seem to be compelling. I do, you do, we all do. It proves nothing, unless you are studying our human ability to self deceive.

What gives Susan the idea that Clancy is "shooting his mouth off". The fact is that Susan has no evidence for dead people talking to live people. No one does. Probably no one ever did in the history of mankind. The basic idea, that we are somehow specially valued animals with persistent souls, is so absurd on its face that it is hard to listen to it without breaking into giggles. When there is no conceivable mechanism for something to take place, a scientist gets pretty antsy about the claim that it happened (though a mechanism may be found later). She says she finds out what has "actually transpired". That's an excellent recommendation. What has actually transpired? Hundreds of fraudulent mediums have been shown up as frauds. Is there anything else that has "transpired" other than baseless claims? Peanut butter sandwiches with faces on them?

And curiosity? Is that all there is? Just be curious? Don't use the curiosity to actually learn anything? Just be endlessly open to breathless wonder? What about some facts? What about some experiments? Does Susan have any idea of how many experiments have been done to test out the ability of mediums to contact the dead? There have been hundreds, if not even more. CSICOP is an organization that makes a point of actually carrying out experiments and investigations of paranormal claims. The problem with their experiments is that they are usually objective and double blind. So the mediums have no way to finagle the results and they are exposed as mere showmen.

James Randi et al has this marvelous report about testing out Uri Geller who claimed to be able to bend spoons with his mind. He was arrogant enough to think that self-important scientists could be wrapped around his little finger. The scientists put a camera in front of him and asked him to demonstrate. This was easy for him. His trick was intended to fool a front audience. But Randi was more clever. He put a hidden camera on the side. Sure enough, the hidden camera caught Geller bending the spoon with his hand, not his mind. This is not an opinion, or a story. It is an experiment. Why would anyone retain an open mind about Uri Geller's abilities anymore?

Paul Palmer

Why not do some reading in the field and see what has been done (reported, researched, thought about) - there are some amazing stories out there - in this field and others like it. I just try and remain open to whatever comes my way - then I try and learn what has actually transpired rather than shooting my mouth off just because I have some thoughts that may not agree with others or that I have not researched. For example, my response to the inquiry about finding a medium who has proven to be more than a lot of hot air came from my curiosity - I am not connected with the Windbridge Institute, I just find their site to be very informative. Curiosity is what will save us from the "dark ages" as you call it....not opinions.
Breath deeply....

cotatikid

01-10-2010, 10:04 PM

The word "amazing" doesn't do justice to most of the stories out there!

I am grateful to "Clancy" for taking the time to respond so responsibly and reasonably to questions posed here on the aptly/ironically named waccobb.net.

Shooting the messenger is generally considered to be in very poor taste.

That "Clancy" is castigated or speciously accused of being "combative" or "shooting my(his) mouth(sic) off" for his effort is beneath contempt.

CSummer

01-11-2010, 02:13 AM

In his video on "seeing what's right with the world," Dewitt Jones said he learned that not only is it true that seeing is believing, it's also true that believing is seeing: that until we open ourselves to the possibility of something existing, we will probably never discover it. This he says became a crucial understanding in his success as a renowned photographer for National Geographic.

Can we be open to the possibility that the rational mind is a very limited faculty? Indeed, it has been said that we can never know the truth about anything through rational thinking. To imagine we can through our minds know all there is to know is to put consciousness in a box, much as we do with any belief system.

Having enjoyed experiencing some magic in my life - that which my rational mind couldn't begin to explain, I prefer to stay open to all possibilities.

I find it painful to keep reading this nonsensical stuff. . . .

We know some facts, and they make sense, and we are no longer interested in pretending that we know nothing.

The people I know, who are clever and well-studied and well-informed are virtually without exception open to learning new facts if it turns out that some fact or theory is actually wrong. That goes with the territory.

Susan wants Clancy to remain open to "stories". What? Stories are great for children but they are not facts. Everyone has experiences that seem to be compelling. I do, you do, we all do. It proves nothing, unless you are studying our human ability to self deceive.

What gives Susan the idea that Clancy is "shooting his mouth off". The fact is that Susan has no evidence for dead people talking to live people. No one does. Probably no one ever did in the history of mankind. The basic idea, that we are somehow specially valued animals with persistent souls, is so absurd on its face that it is hard to listen to it without breaking into giggles. When there is no conceivable mechanism for something to take place, a scientist gets pretty antsy about the claim that it happened (though a mechanism may be found later). She says she finds out what has "actually transpired". That's an excellent recommendation. What has actually transpired? Hundreds of fraudulent mediums have been shown up as frauds. Is there anything else that has "transpired" other than baseless claims? Peanut butter sandwiches with faces on them?

And curiosity? Is that all there is? Just be curious? Don't use the curiosity to actually learn anything? Just be endlessly open to breathless wonder? What about some facts? What about some experiments? Does Susan have any idea of how many experiments have been done to test out the ability of mediums to contact the dead? There have been hundreds, if not even more. CSICOP is an organization that makes a point of actually carrying out experiments and investigations of paranormal claims. The problem with their experiments is that they are usually objective and double blind. So the mediums have no way to finagle the results and they are exposed as mere showmen.

James Randi et al has this marvelous report about testing out Uri Geller who claimed to be able to bend spoons with his mind. He was arrogant enough to think that self-important scientists could be wrapped around his little finger. The scientists put a camera in front of him and asked him to demonstrate. This was easy for him. His trick was intended to fool a front audience. But Randi was more clever. He put a hidden camera on the side. Sure enough, the hidden camera caught Geller bending the spoon with his hand, not his mind. This is not an opinion, or a story. It is an experiment. Why would anyone retain an open mind about Uri Geller's abilities anymore?

Paul Palmer

Vswan

01-11-2010, 08:42 AM

I make no claims on any special super powers but I'll share the root problem of spiritualist regradless of thier magick.

One of the core problems with proving knowledge or communications is that the information that is passed from spirit, spiritworld, God, animal, man, future, is required to pass though the subconscience. In the case of man to man (telepathy), that communication is passed conscidence to subconscience of one person, then subconscience to conscience of the other.
The subconscience isn't very reliable and anyone that remembers thier dreams will quickly understand the subconscience is very creative adding it's own flair to any ideas or thoughts that might travel through it's realm.
The passing of information from your subconscience to your conscience (and back again), is the equivalent of passing a block of cheese through a cheese grater and then re-assembling the block in order to gain the original information.
It's alot easier to get a general idea, a feeling or mood from magick then it is to get very specific and detailed information. If the psychic was given a picture, name, face, person, they have never seen before the mind (subconscience, conscience, or both) will replace it with something more identifiable to the psychic (something they know and are familar with), this new picture becomes a symbol for what they didn't have an image of before, and another puzzle that has to be worked out by the pyschic.
Hopefully this isn't all too boring, but basicly spirutualists, psychics, mages or whatever, are just investigators trying to put the puzzles peices together the best they can. They spend alot of time looking within themselves trying to solve their own symbolism before they can start looking out the symbols passed by other entities.

As for the advice on where to find a meduim that is "certified", or "proven", the problem isn't in the meduim, it is in your own beliefs. You should first solidify your beliefs in the after-life, once you are 100% confident and sure there is an after-life and spirits are available to speak to you. Then a Meduim(or do it yourself) will be able to help you make that connection.... whether the meduim is real or a fruad wont be important they will be supporting your belief system, helping to define your faith.

Sorry if I ramble a bit,

^v^Swan

Yip

01-11-2010, 09:58 AM

Funny that you ask, here are some links from more rational people;
Cops Get Paranormal Help from Above and Beyond, According to Book by Michigan State Police Officer | Hot Indie News (https://www.hotindienews.com/2009/09/08/108551)
Cops Get Paranormal Help from Above and Beyond - Salem-News.Com (https://www.salem-news.com/articles/august212009/cops_psychics_8-17-09.php)

That people claiming to be able to talk to the dead haven't thought this through does not surprise me.

Here are just a few ways it could be proved,

Our aspiring medium could lead the press and scientists to the undisturbed and unexpected burial locations of a few murder victims from long ago, with a description of their remains and cause of death before they’re uncovered. I can imagine that a whole lot of murder victims would love to set the record straight and would be highly motivated to help.

Now that I think of it, why not do it really big, so our spiritual medium can profit handsomely from the get go?

How about publicly disclosing the formerly unknown locations of:

Shipwrecks

Lost plane wrecks

Undisturbed mass graves

Long ago buried or otherwise hidden treasure

Undisturbed burial chambers, archeological treasures and ruins of lost cities and towns from all over the world

Since millions of dead people had first hand knowledge of all the above, but the living obviously don't, it would be very dramatic proof.

Clancy

01-11-2010, 10:32 AM

I've had a couple of dramatic and inexplicable experiences in my life too, but, like the interesting story in your links, they don't constitute proof of communication with dead people.

Funny that you ask, here are some links from more rational people;
Cops Get Paranormal Help from Above and Beyond, According to Book by Michigan State Police Officer | Hot Indie News (https://www.hotindienews.com/2009/09/08/108551)
Cops Get Paranormal Help from Above and Beyond - Salem-News.Com (https://www.salem-news.com/articles/august212009/cops_psychics_8-17-09.php)

Barry

01-11-2010, 10:34 AM

I have split off this discussion of Mediums from the original request for referrals into its own thread in WaccoTalk called Mediums - Worthwhile or Hoax? (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccotalk/62299-mediums-worthwhile-hoax-new-post.html) Please use this thread for any further discussion.

Yip

01-11-2010, 03:13 PM

I do know that cops as a last resort use mediums when they are stuck in missing person cases.
They are documented I'm pretty sure.
When a medium is called in and is able to lead the police to a dead body, would you consider that communication with the dead?
I am a skeptic myself about some of the claims people make, but how would you explain your own personal experiences?

I've had a couple of dramatic and inexplicable experiences in my life too, but, like the interesting story in your links, they don't constitute proof of communication with dead people.

Clancy

01-11-2010, 03:42 PM

If mediums can find missing people, especially children, what are they waiting for? Why do they let them suffer?

If you had the power to locate kidnapped children wouldn't you use it? After finding the fourth or fifth child (dead or alive) you'd have the entire world begging for your services, and willing to pay millions.

I do know that cops as a last resort use mediums when they are stuck in missing person cases.
They are documented I'm pretty sure.
When a medium is called in and is able to lead the police to a dead body, would you consider that communication with the dead?
I am a skeptic myself about some of the claims people make, but how would you explain your own personal experiences?

Sciguy

01-11-2010, 05:03 PM

Clancy:
All good questions (if we weren't just wasting our time pretending that this idiotic subject is not too juvenile for words).

Why would mediums be a last resort anyway as Yip affirmed? If cops could get magical information out of thin air, wouldn't mediums be the first, last and only sources? Imagine all those wraiths as your right hand ghosts. Can they look down from on high? Can they look up from below? Do they just sort of haunt the earth, one per square foot by now, so that they see where everyone is and what they are doing? I wonder if anyone has any claims as to where the dead people hang out. I haven't heard any. In fact I haven't heard anything about them except that they show up at seances and haunted houses. But Hollywood has as much right to make up ghost stories as Deepcrap or anyone else.

I would suggest reading some of Laurel K. Hamilton's work. She really lays out exactly how it all works. Vampires, goblins, fairies, trolls, they all have rules to live by and their own codes of conduct and their own communities. I love her books. But Yip - they are FICTION!

Paul Palmer

If mediums can find missing people, especially children, what are they waiting for? Why do they let them suffer?

If you had the power to locate kidnapped children wouldn't you use it? After finding the fourth or fifth child (dead or alive) you'd have the entire world begging for your services, and willing to pay millions.

SusanC

01-11-2010, 05:30 PM

How did we get from mediumship to lost children?

If you were to read the work done by Raymond Moody, MD, Phd or Kenneth Ring, Phd (and Ring with Sharon Cooper) or Allan Botkin (subtitle: a new therapy for healing grief and trauma) or Damien Broderick or Plato or Socrates or the work that comes out of Perenial Philosophy, or Lawrence LeShan, or Joel Martin, or Don Piper or Ian Stevenson (if there is reincarnation then there must be a place in between earth-bound physical lives) or Swedenborg or David Fontana or the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying or or or...

The Ancients had theories - the "majority of people on the planet at this time" (Thomas Walker in The Force is With Us) have theories and much research has been done that considers the continuation of some sort of consciousness after physical death. Scientism does not permit research done outside of the lab or outside of the "accepted" "scientific" model to be recognized as possibility - but much of the thinking that belongs to the "new but ancient age" cannot be tested in a lab - intention for example (read Bill Tiller's work) - but as Thomas Kuhn says - the old guys (who are ego invested in the old paradigms) have to die before new paradigms can be accepted and thus change the old thinking of those who are so invested that they cannot think out of that comfortable old box.....

You spoke of the dark ages - I believe that if we take the stand that scoffers take we are done for (vs skeptics - who ask healthy questions but are open to new ways of thinking). We must allow and encourage humanity to evolve - we MUST learn new ways of thinking and be open to new possibilities otherwise it will be the same old, same old and basically the end of this planet and life as we know it. How does the same old same old help us evolve? Where has it gotten us so far?

If we can begin to stretch our thinking and wonder more and exercize our "creativity" - one of the most important hermetic principles - we (humanity and our planet) may stand a chance.

Sciguy

01-11-2010, 06:21 PM

Susan:
Your writing would be funny if it weren't first sad.

For ten thousand years, mankind wallowed in ignorance of the basic physical processes that govern life on earth and even the universe. Then came the Enlightenment and Science was developed as a way to substitute testing for mythmaking. As you know, it was, and remains, phenomenally successful.

The old guys, the ones who are resisting the teachings of truth seeking through objective tests, are hanging on by their fingernails. Now we can hardly even claim to know anything unless we cling to the skirts of science. Religion has to be dressed up as Noetic Science (a completely meaningless circumlocution). Susan - the old guy in the picture is you!

Now we no longer need divine explanations for simple physical events. We no longer need to imagine hordes of dead people. Even though there are oodles of things we don't understand, we no longer need to imagine that we are going to come to understand them by personal anecdote or by inventive fabrication or by the force of pretense. We know the approach to use now. When we don't understand something we investigate, we do experiments, we share and test our theories. We trust in that method. It has produced miracles - real ones! Did any medium ever invent a GPS tracker in your car? I still consider that a miracle and I even know how it works.

Susan, I detect a note of jealousy in your dismissal of science. Wouldn't you like to have a laboratory to play around in? Wouldn't you like to do tests and prove theories? It is really a lot of fun.

Why do you turn to those old discredited canards? Laboratories are great, for small, containable experiments, but the whole universe is a laboratory for scientists. The prediction and detection of the microwave radiation left over from the big bang used not only the whole universe but the whole past development of the universe. Does that sound like some crabby old fossil who can't see past his lab bench? No, it's you and your writers lost in a past that never was who are old fossils. You are trying to keep a mythology afloat just because it feels good. You are embracing a moldy old paradigm whose time is past. Science is the present and the future. Those who can't join the real world can read and write for each other but it changes nothing. There are no ghosts and never were. There are no gods and never were. There are no miracles (in the religious sense) and never were. There are no arisings from the dead and never were. There are no fairies, nymphs, trolls and goblins and never were. There are no communications with the dead and never were.

The GPS tracker is real and will ever be so!

Paul Palmer

How did we get from mediumship to lost children?

If you were to read the work done by Raymond Moody, MD, Phd or Kenneth Ring, Phd (and Ring with Sharon Cooper) or Allan Botkin (subtitle: a new therapy for healing grief and trauma) or Damien Broderick or Plato or Socrates or the work that comes out of Perenial Philosophy, or Lawrence LeShan, or Joel Martin, or Don Piper or Ian Stevenson (if there is reincarnation then there must be a place in between earth-bound physical lives) or Swedenborg or David Fontana or the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying or or or...

The Ancients had theories - the "majority of people on the planet at this time" (Thomas Walker in The Force is With Us) have theories and much research has been done that considers the continuation of some sort of consciousness after physical death. Scientism does not permit research done outside of the lab or outside of the "accepted" "scientific" model to be recognized as possibility - but much of the thinking that belongs to the "new but ancient age" cannot be tested in a lab - intention for example (read Bill Tiller's work) - but as Thomas Kuhn says - the old guys (who are ego invested in the old paradigms) have to die before new paradigms can be accepted and thus change the old thinking of those who are so invested that they cannot think out of that comfortable old box.....

You spoke of the dark ages - I believe that if we take the stand that scoffers take we are done for (vs skeptics - who ask healthy questions but are open to new ways of thinking). We must allow and encourage humanity to evolve - we MUST learn new ways of thinking and be open to new possibilities otherwise it will be the same old, same old and basically the end of this planet and life as we know it. How does the same old same old help us evolve? Where has it gotten us so far?

If we can begin to stretch our thinking and wonder more and exercize our "creativity" - one of the most important hermetic principles - we (humanity and our planet) may stand a chance.

Clancy

01-11-2010, 06:23 PM

How did we get from mediumship to lost children?...

We're having a conversation regarding the veracity of mediums.

A few posts ago Yip said, "I do know that cops as a last resort use mediums when they are stuck in missing person cases."

I responded, "If mediums can find missing people, especially children, what are they waiting for? Why do they let them suffer?" and, "If you had the power to locate kidnapped children wouldn't you use it?"

Don't you think those are valid questions?

SusanC

01-11-2010, 06:38 PM

I am sorry that you are feeling so badly for me. I love my life and this will be my last post about this topic - it is obvious that there are many folks here who are not willing to expand their outlooks and who are not interested in possibilities - 'scientism' is rampant here and so this is not a good venue for me to spend time.

I had had my time in a lab and I have seen that everything done in a lab has an element of subjectivity to it - everything does - bar nothing. And thousands of people talking about their very real experiences and experiments that have proven all kinds of paranormal issues are being neglected by just a few folks who think that "objective" science will fix us all (GPS systems will of course fix our global warming - not personal transformation or worldview exploration) - most of us are on a more expanding, spiritual (dare I use the word) journey that is exciting, gratifying and helping us to do more and more work that counts (I now volunteer many hours a week at a hospice and work in the field of grief - that is an eye opener and attitude changer for those who don't believe in possibilities).

So I wish you all well and hope that you enjoy the world you have all limited yourselves to.
Bye.

Clancy

01-11-2010, 06:59 PM

I do know that cops as a last resort use mediums when they are stuck in missing person cases...

I found this article to be very interesting
Police Psychics: Do They Really Help Solve Crimes? (https://www.cicap.org/new/articolo.php?id=101006)

anaturalwoman

01-11-2010, 07:09 PM

It would be nice if that $1.000.000 was "real" money.
Is it somewhere in a bank account?

Only a few words to add: good mediums 'tune' in to information --we've learned to use our 'antenna', our hearts and experience, even our Asking, to tap in to the exact info: the process 'dissolves' the experience of 'space-time" --and while mysterious, is learnable, repeatable, and reliable. The energy-being (the Loved one on "the other side") sought to communicate with --is available all the time --once you let go of the paradigm of three dimensional space time... You cannot understand or experience mediumship using the usual, conventional paradigm. -Blessings, MS

Clancy

01-11-2010, 07:54 PM

...good mediums 'tune' in to information --we've learned to use our 'antenna', our hearts and experience, even our Asking, to tap in to the exact info: the process 'dissolves' the experience of 'space-time" --and while mysterious, is learnable, repeatable, and reliable. The energy-being (the Loved one on "the other side") sought to communicate with --is available all the time --once you let go of the paradigm of three dimensional space time...

hmmm... mediums also seem very reluctant to find missing dead children for the grieving parents, or even address why they won't.

With all due respect, if you have the powers you claim, if it's "repeatable and reliable", why aren't you (or other mediums) using it to relieve such unimaginable suffering?

Yip

01-11-2010, 08:39 PM

I find your petulant questions quite demeaning, and not adding anything to the discussion, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are sincere.
In order for a medium to be able to help find anyone, I have to assume they have to be invited and introduced to some of the more intimate details. I don't think a crapshoot into the universe is the standard modus operandii. eg if the cops don't use them, don't blame mediums.
Let's look at it another way.
If someone claims to be a tennis player does that automatically mean that this person, will win every game they play?
Do you know of any professional sports person that wins everything, every time they show up?
I don't understand why you would hold mediums to different standards then sports people, who get paid millions, and don't perform.

If mediums can find missing people, especially children, what are they waiting for? Why do they let them suffer?

If you had the power to locate kidnapped children wouldn't you use it? After finding the fourth or fifth child (dead or alive) you'd have the entire world begging for your services, and willing to pay millions.

Clancy

01-11-2010, 08:54 PM

Are you suggesting that no parent or police dept has ever asked a medium to locate their missing dead child and offered them intimate details to facilitate the process? Of course they have. Why haven't the mediums succeeded?

I think my questions are quite valid, and patiently presented in the face of repeated personal insults. Please try to be civil in our discussion.

I find your petulant questions quite demeaning, and not adding anything to the discussion, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are sincere.
In order for a medium to be able to help find anyone, I have to assume they have to be invited and introduced to some of the more intimate details. I don't think a crapshoot into the universe is the standard modus operandii. eg if they cops don't use, don't blame mediums.
Let's look at it another way.
If someone claims to be a tennis player does that automatically mean that this person, will win every game they play?
Do you know of any professional sports person that wins everything, every time they show up?
I don't understand why you would hold mediums to different standards then sports people, who get paid millions, and don't perform.

Yip

01-11-2010, 09:49 PM

Are you suggesting that no parent or police dept has ever asked a medium to locate their missing dead child and offered them intimate details to facilitate the process? Of course they have. Why haven't the mediums succeeded?

What on earth makes you think that the Police Department would ask a medium to locate a missing child?
Of course they have? Isn't it PD practice to use only proven methods?
Tell us, in which case did they use a medium and in which case did they not succeed?

I think my questions are quite valid, and patiently presented in the face of repeated personal insults. Please try to be civil in our discussion.If you feel that your questions are valid and civil (hmmm... mediums also seem very reluctant to find missing dead children for the grieving parents, or even address why they won't.), why do you think others feel you come across smug and mocking?
Even though I did address your questions, you seem to avoid answering mine.

Thad

01-11-2010, 09:50 PM

"Stranger in a strange land" a title by a respected author introduced the idea of " grock " it meant to completely get the gist of a thing in an instant.

There is no science to explain this.

You might say its the mental super computer, or your perception might have no limitations,

Its a point in history that a high one spoke up in the House of Lords and proclaimed that all the great things had already been invented, this was a long time ago.

So who can limit the possibility? Who can put their finite mind around the obvious infinite reaches of space and say no strangeness exists...

Its the province of human to be always surprised!

Are you suggesting that no parent or police dept has ever asked a medium to locate their missing dead child and offered them intimate details to facilitate the process? Of course they have. Why haven't the mediums succeeded?

I think my questions are quite valid, and patiently presented in the face of repeated personal insults. Please try to be civil in our discussion.

Clancy

01-11-2010, 10:08 PM

I'm open to learning here, are you?

Please. Link us to just a single case where a spiritual medium has led the police or the parents to a missing dead child's body.

And yes, myriad police departments have tried using psychics or mediums to find missing kids, as a quick google search will show.
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&q=police+use+psychics+to+hunt+for+missing+child&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
Unfortunately, they don't seem to ever have had any success.

What on earth makes you think that the Police Department would ask a medium to locate a missing child?
Of course they have? Isn't it PD practice to use only proven methods?
Tell us, in which case did they use a medium and in which case did they not succeed?

If you feel that your questions are valid and civil (hmmm... mediums also seem very reluctant to find missing dead children for the grieving parents, or even address why they won't.), why do you think others feel you come across smug and mocking?
Even though I did address your questions, you seem to avoid answering mine.

Yip

01-11-2010, 10:18 PM

Susan, I too have noticed a certain intolerance and self-righteousness on this site towards people who are open to discuss possibilities.
I am not surprised that you are signing off, I am leaning towards the same.

I am sorry that you are feeling so badly for me. I love my life and this will be my last post about this topic - it is obvious that there are many folks here who are not willing to expand their outlooks and who are not interested in possibilities - 'scientism' is rampant here and so this is not a good venue for me to spend time.

I had had my time in a lab and I have seen that everything done in a lab has an element of subjectivity to it - everything does - bar nothing. And thousands of people talking about their very real experiences and experiments that have proven all kinds of paranormal issues are being neglected by just a few folks who think that "objective" science will fix us all (GPS systems will of course fix our global warming - not personal transformation or worldview exploration) - most of us are on a more expanding, spiritual (dare I use the word) journey that is exciting, gratifying and helping us to do more and more work that counts (I now volunteer many hours a week at a hospice and work in the field of grief - that is an eye opener and attitude changer for those who don't believe in possibilities).

So I wish you all well and hope that you enjoy the world you have all limited yourselves to.
Bye.

Clancy

01-11-2010, 10:22 PM

Susan, I too have noticed a certain intolerance and self-righteousness on this site towards people who are open to discuss possibilities.
I am not surprised that you are signing off, I am leaning towards the same.

I'll take that as an admission that you don't know of a single case where a medium led the police to a poor child's body.

Yip

01-11-2010, 10:30 PM

I used your google search for an American story.
For your convenience, I highlighted the most valid information about how our tax dollars are spend.
Do you think anyone can fool a cop that often?

Using Advice Of Psychic, Police Hunt For a Body

By DAN BARRY

Published: July 4, 1997

Investigators from the New York City Police Department and the F.B.I. have spent the last two days tearing apart a field along the East River in Brooklyn, searching for the body of a police officer's wife who vanished almost four years ago, law enforcement officials said yesterday. They said they were led to the site, in part, by a psychicBy last evening, the officials said, the search had yielded what appeared to be the remains of a dog. But the psychic, whose services have been used by the Police Department and other law enforcement agencies hundreds of times, said that she had a sense that the body of the woman, Esvelyn Henriquez, may be buried beneath the rubble and scraggly grass that covers a lot around Kent Avenue and North Seventh Street in the Williamsburg section.

''I think so,'' the psychic, Dorothy Allison, said last night. ''But it doesn't mean that I'm right.''

I'm open to learning here, are you?

Please. Link us to just a single case where a spiritual medium has led the police or the parents to a missing dead child's body.

And yes, myriad police departments have tried using psychics or mediums to find missing kids, as a quick google search will show.
police use psychics to hunt for missing child - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&q=police+use+psychics+to+hunt+for+missing+child&aq=f&oq=&aqi=)
Unfortunately, they don't seem to ever have had any success.

Clancy

01-11-2010, 10:33 PM

HELLO, she didn't find the body - but see, you are learning. Just minutes ago you insisted the police never use mediums.

I used your google search for an American story.
For your convenience, I highlighted the most valid information about how our tax dollars are spend.
Do you think anyone can fool a cop that often?

Using Advice Of Psychic, Police Hunt For a Body

By DAN BARRY

Published: July 4, 1997

Investigators from the New York City Police Department and the F.B.I. have spent the last two days tearing apart a field along the East River in Brooklyn, searching for the body of a police officer's wife who vanished almost four years ago, law enforcement officials said yesterday. They said they were led to the site, in part, by a psychicBy last evening, the officials said, the search had yielded what appeared to be the remains of a dog. But the psychic, whose services have been used by the Police Department and other law enforcement agencies hundreds of times, said that she had a sense that the body of the woman, Esvelyn Henriquez, may be buried beneath the rubble and scraggly grass that covers a lot around Kent Avenue and North Seventh Street in the Williamsburg section.

''I think so,'' the psychic, Dorothy Allison, said last night. ''But it doesn't mean that I'm right.''

Yip

01-11-2010, 10:43 PM

You truly are mean-spirited with your willingnesss to twist reality.
I have to conclude that you are beyond reason or openness.

For all you of who are truly interested, here is someone, who DID find bodies and never took a dime for it.
"In interviews over the years, Ms. Allison said she had worked on more than 5,000 cases, so many that she had trouble recalling the names of victims. She said she had led detectives to 250 bodies and had solved hundreds of murders. Among the police departments that consulted her was New York City's.
Chief DeLitta of the Nutley police said she had been helpful on many occasions, citing a 1993 bludgeoning murder."

I'll take that as an admission that you don't know of a single case where a medium led the police to a poor child's body.

Clancy

01-11-2010, 10:57 PM

from the same obituary you cut your selection...

"Ms. Allison... materialized to offer to solve crimes including the Patricia Hearst kidnapping, the 'Son of Sam' killings, the murders of children in Atlanta and the death of JonBenet Ramsey. She was not successful in those cases, but her supporters insist that she hit the mark on others."

Perhaps you can link us to some news story quoting the police saying she lead them to a body, rather than vague statements about "helpfulness" from her obituary, which are known for casting the subject in a positive light.

You know, something like, "Ms. Allison Led The Police To The Body"

If, as she claims, she did it 250 times, it should be easy to find and very compelling reading don't you think?

You truly are mean-spirited with your willingnesss to twist reality.
I have to conclude that you are beyond reason or openness.

For all you of who are truly interested, here is someone, who DID find bodies and never took a dime for it.
"In interviews over the years, Ms. Allison said she had worked on more than 5,000 cases, so many that she had trouble recalling the names of victims. She said she had led detectives to 250 bodies and had solved hundreds of murders. Among the police departments that consulted her was New York City's.
Chief DeLitta of the Nutley police said she had been helpful on many occasions, citing a 1993 bludgeoning murder."

alanora

01-12-2010, 12:15 AM

Does death imply/confer omniscience?

That people claiming to be able to talk to the dead haven't thought this through does not surprise me.

Here are just a few ways it could be proved,

Our aspiring medium could lead the press and scientists to the undisturbed and unexpected burial locations of a few murder victims from long ago, with a description of their remains and cause of death before they’re uncovered. I can imagine that a whole lot of murder victims would love to set the record straight and would be highly motivated to help.

Now that I think of it, why not do it really big, so our spiritual medium can profit handsomely from the get go?

How about publicly disclosing the formerly unknown locations of:

Shipwrecks

Lost plane wrecks

Undisturbed mass graves

Long ago buried or otherwise hidden treasure

Undisturbed burial chambers, archeological treasures and ruins of lost cities and towns from all over the world

Since millions of dead people had first hand knowledge of all the above, but the living obviously don't, it would be very dramatic proof.

Clancy

01-12-2010, 12:18 AM

Does death imply/confer omniscience?

Not sure what you mean, but obviously dead people had first hand knowledge of all those things, and just as obviously live people today don't. Millions of dead people lived in ancient cities, towns and villages that are now lost to us.

I read once that archeologists think that all the ruins of ancient towns, cities and other significant sites we have discovered so far are still just the tip of the iceberg.

If mediums can talk to the dead, why aren't the millions of dead telling the mediums where they're from? How about just ONE? Just one dead person from a presently unknown ruin, giving the medium a description of where they lived.

Wouldn't you love to see a medium lead archeologists to an unknown buried city with a simple description of the city before it's uncovered, in any of the world's deserts, oceans or jungles - now that would be dramatic proof. It would create a spiritual and scientific revolution.

Instead, all we get is vagueness, evasion and hostility when asking for proof of ANY kind, effectively putting the question to rest along with the integrity of so-called spiritual mediums.

Neshamah

01-12-2010, 05:53 AM

There are lots of things out there that do not fit with what we presently know. That does not mean frequent communication with the dead is one of them. The following excerpt refers to a case solved unconventionally. It has nothing to do with mediums, but is nonetheless quite remarkable:

Some physicians and scientists have tried to gain understanding of cellular memory
through psychological, metaphysical, and even supernatural terms. One can see why they
would go to these unconventional lengths in order to try and explain cellular memory
when faced with such disturbing incidents as this: several years ago, an eight-year-old
girl received the heart of a ten-year-old girl who was murdered. Shortly after receiving
her new heart, the girl began having recurring nightmares about the man who had
murdered her donor. She believed she knew who the murderer was. Her mother finally
brought her to a psychiatrist and after several sessions, the girl’s psychiatrist “could not
deny the reality of what the child was telling her.” They decided to call the police and,
using the descriptions from the little girl, they found the murderer. According to the
psychiatrist, “the time, the weapon, the place, the clothes he wore, what the little girl he
killed had said to him. . .everything the little heart transplant recipient reported was
completely accurate” (Pearsall 7). Needless to say, the psychiatrist was eager to find any
available explanation for this particular patient’s experience.

The entire article is here: https://www.montgomerycollege.edu/Departments/StudentJournal/volume2/kate.pdf

The article mentions 'spirits' and 'mediums,' but the notion that memories, particularly intense ones, can be stored in cells outside the brain is far more plausible, and explains why the eight-year old girl is not marketing herself as a clairvoyant detective.

~ Jessica

Zeno Swijtink

01-12-2010, 07:55 AM

There are lots of things out there that do not fit with what we presently know.

This story fits perfectly in what we know about Homo Canny.

The phenomenon is called "Gullibility" and is a defect of the gull bladder.

Neshamah

01-12-2010, 10:40 AM

Yip

01-12-2010, 10:54 AM

I have come to the conclusion that WACCO is not a site where people meet to exchange ideas.
Apparently the game here is to chase people away that don't fall into the "conscious" category.

That was surprisingly dismissive. I had heard of the case from others and looked it up because I thought it relevant to this discussion. Have you heard that this was a hoax, or are you dismissing it because it strikes you as impossible? I don't hold onto untrue facts once I know they are untrue.

Thank you,

Jessica

Zeno Swijtink

01-12-2010, 11:41 AM

That was surprisingly dismissive. I had heard of the case from others and looked it up because I thought it relevant to this discussion. Have you heard that this was a hoax, or are you dismissing it because it strikes you as impossible? I don't hold onto untrue facts once I know they are untrue.

Thank you,

Jessica

I thought it was rather an odd and suspicious story but I followed your reference and discovered that it was from a student paper, supervised by a faculty member is in a Business & Economics department! To base an acceptance of a story on the basis of this source (which I thought you did) I call gullible.

A decent discussion I found is at

Is it possible for someone who had corneal transplants to remember someone that the corneal donor knew? | Answerbag (https://www.answerbag.com/q_view/22033)

The more unusual the claim the greater the need for careful documentation. I think we can dismiss this one!

I am not dismissing all possibility of "cellular memory" but think it would be more akin to things like metal fatigue and not have the linguistic complexity of the murder story.

Sciguy

01-12-2010, 12:16 PM

Jessica and Yip:
I took note of this quote from that paper on cellular memory:

"Although my interview with Larry did not yield the results I had hoped for (a compelling account of cellular memory, of course)"

providing evidence that this report is far from objective. I hope no one will think this quote actually displays objectivity.

I thought the mention of nerves in the heart was suggestive. We discovered microchip computers and started putting them into every little device. Maybe once evolution developed a working brain, it began to favor intelligent organs throughout the body. Maybe that is an effective design. Often a set of genes that can create a new feature can then be employed in new ways. I read an interview with an evolutionary biologist who stated that, based on genetic studies, humans are evolving faster than ever before. Distributed mental ability is not a priori impossible. I wonder if any real examples exist.

I think Zeno hit the nail on the head. There is no mechanism for cellular memory being suggested and the level of complexity being claimed is way, way beyond some handwaving about distributed neuropeptides.

Here's for more unconscious discussions. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Paul Palmer

I have come to the conclusion that WACCO is not a site where people meet to exchange ideas.
Apparently the game here is to chase people away that don't fall into the "conscious" category.

yurtman

01-12-2010, 10:42 PM

I just happen to see this posting....and I couldn't help but respond....I would like to say that I am well-read in Science, biology, history, math, etc and give modern Science credit for many of the understandings we have of the world and of course it's modern material goodies....

Yet Science cannot explain (at least not yet; maybe someday it will, just like 500 years ago they would not have been able to explain electricity) many inexplicable things have happened/do happen to me. For most of my adult life I have possessed the peculiar ability to see/communicate with deceased human beings. I can't explain it, or why me....it just is.

Though I did have some odd experiences as a child, it really began when I was doing massage, and I would see someone in the room with us....Mind you, I had never met the person on the masssage table and knew nothing about them. Yet, I would see their deceased relative/friend and frequently knew their names (one grandmother's name was Lila! It wasn't Mary or Sue, but Lila), many details of her life as related to the client, etc. Another time I described in detail the man I was seeing at the foot of the massage table and the client burst into tears saying that it was his father who had just died 5 days before....And the exchange went on for an hour or two, with me repeated what I could see/hear/feel the father say to his son....Jeez, they had a lot of unfinished business it seemed!

These encounters happened many times over the years, always unexpectedly and always with total strangers, who were as shocked as I was. It happened in restaurants, parties, once even on the beach in broad daylight in Figi. I would often know the deceased persons precise first name, how they died, specifics of their personalities, personal gifts they gave to the living person or visa versa, sometimes a nick-name, several tiny details of their lives that I could not have had privy to nor would have the nerve to make up. (For example, I understood that one deceased father had a terrible case of flatulance and farted a lot....when I said that the woman literally fell off the couch laughing, saying yes it was true)....Intiallly these encounters were purely spontaneous, and when I eventually began to try and do it on command, I was sometimes so accurate -- for an hour or more -- that people insisted on paying me. I had not asked for money, and requested that they instead donate it a charity of their choice. My ability seems to be on hiatus at the moment, but I suspect it will begin again when I least expect it. And to reiterate: perhaps with more sustained practice I might gain more volition and command over this ability, but I doubt it would ever be 100% accurate...it's just not in the nature of how it happens.

So, whomever you are, Mr SciGuy, writing your screed against the unseen world and, in fact, against people like me....I can tell you that while I may have this periodic, unusual talent I am not stupid, ignorant, anti-science nor a liar or delusional. You would not be able to pick me out in a crowd and I could converse with you about many intelligent, modern, and current subject matters; you would probably like and even respect me....That is until I might suddenly see your dead father or grandmother behind you....Sometimes it takes only one inexplicable personal experience to open the door and make you wonder if there isn't something else going on.....

bye Peace Bill

Susan:
Your writing would be funny if it weren't first sad.

For ten thousand years, mankind wallowed in ignorance of the basic physical processes that govern life on earth and even the universe. Then came the Enlightenment and Science was developed as a way to substitute testing for mythmaking. As you know, it was, and remains, phenomenally successful.

The old guys, the ones who are resisting the teachings of truth seeking through objective tests, are hanging on by their fingernails. Now we can hardly even claim to know anything unless we cling to the skirts of science. Religion has to be dressed up as Noetic Science (a completely meaningless circumlocution). Susan - the old guy in the picture is you!

Now we no longer need divine explanations for simple physical events. We no longer need to imagine hordes of dead people. Even though there are oodles of things we don't understand, we no longer need to imagine that we are going to come to understand them by personal anecdote or by inventive fabrication or by the force of pretense. We know the approach to use now. When we don't understand something we investigate, we do experiments, we share and test our theories. We trust in that method. It has produced miracles - real ones! Did any medium ever invent a GPS tracker in your car? I still consider that a miracle and I even know how it works.

Susan, I detect a note of jealousy in your dismissal of science. Wouldn't you like to have a laboratory to play around in? Wouldn't you like to do tests and prove theories? It is really a lot of fun.

Why do you turn to those old discredited canards? Laboratories are great, for small, containable experiments, but the whole universe is a laboratory for scientists. The prediction and detection of the microwave radiation left over from the big bang used not only the whole universe but the whole past development of the universe. Does that sound like some crabby old fossil who can't see past his lab bench? No, it's you and your writers lost in a past that never was who are old fossils. You are trying to keep a mythology afloat just because it feels good. You are embracing a moldy old paradigm whose time is past. Science is the present and the future. Those who can't join the real world can read and write for each other but it changes nothing. There are no ghosts and never were. There are no gods and never were. There are no miracles (in the religious sense) and never were. There are no arisings from the dead and never were. There are no fairies, nymphs, trolls and goblins and never were. There are no communications with the dead and never were.

The GPS tracker is real and will ever be so!

Paul Palmer

sharingwisdom

01-12-2010, 11:31 PM

The Only Official Psychic Twins Web Site - About (https://www.psychictwins.com/about.html)
Terry and Linda Jamison, known internationally as "The Psychic Twins," are the only twin psychics in the world. And yes, they are identical! The Psychic Twins are considered by many to be the most documented and accurate psychics working today.

The Psychic Twins have been professional psychics for twenty years. Aside from their astonishing world predictions, the Jamison sisters have reunited families, helped solve murder cases and find missing persons, saved marriages, and diagnosed illnesses using their unique gift of automatic writing.
The Psychic Twins have appeared on over sixty TV shows worldwide, on ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, TLC, A&E, Biography Channel and Oprah Winfrey's OXYGEN Network. Also, The Psychic Twins have starred in a dozen documentary films, including Psychic Children (A&E), Hollywood Ghost Stories (AMC), Twin Stories (Turner Superstation) and Extreme Twins (Channel 5 UK). Terry and Linda Jamison are profiled in The 100 Top Psychics in America (Simon and Schuster) and The Book of Twins (Doubleday). The Psychic Twins reside in Los Angeles, where they have a private counseling practice for individuals and businesses all over the world. They are frequent guests on national TV and Radio shows.

What on earth makes you think that the Police Department would ask a medium to locate a missing child?
Of course they have? Isn't it PD practice to use only proven methods?
Tell us, in which case did they use a medium and in which case did they not succeed?

If you feel that your questions are valid and civil (hmmm... mediums also seem very reluctant to find missing dead children for the grieving parents, or even address why they won't.), why do you think others feel you come across smug and mocking?
Even though I did address your questions, you seem to avoid answering mine.

Clancy

01-13-2010, 07:20 AM

We still don't know what electricity is (we just understand better how it behaves), but 500 years ago no one had to take your word for it that it exists.

EVERYONE sees lightning and hears thunder, whether they believe in it or not, and whether you claim it exists or not.

Since the fantasy of possessing special powers that others don't have is probably second only to the fantasy of having good sex, the burden of proof is on those who make such claims.

...I would like to say that I am well-read in Science, biology, history, math, etc and give modern Science credit for many of the understandings we have of the world and of course it's modern material goodies....

Yet Science cannot explain (at least not yet; maybe someday it will, just like 500 years ago they would not have been able to explain electricity) many inexplicable things have happened/do happen to me. For most of my adult life I have possessed the peculiar ability to see/communicate with deceased human beings. I can't explain it, or why me....it just is...

someguy

01-13-2010, 07:28 AM

And to reiterate: perhaps with more sustained practice I might gain more volition and command over this ability, but I doubt it would ever be 100% accurate...it's just not in the nature of how it happens.

Why wouldn't your ability be 100% accurate when you are receiving the info directly from the deceased person looking you in the eye? Its not like some vague information that can be described in many ways, but rather you are describing a direct communication. How could that not be 100% accurate? Are the dead people lying to you, or what?

BTW when you get your ability back I'd love to get one of those free readings with some of my dead relatives.

Thanks in advance.

Someguy

Maiendra

01-13-2010, 07:35 AM

someguy

01-13-2010, 08:38 AM

Why can't people understand it's not this way or that way, it's all of the above and more... the democrats vs the rebulicans, the scientists vs the mediums...Adults acting like children... when will it end?? Merge your thinking respectfully and maybe there will be some solutions to the ever mounting problems. By the way, I think Susan and Paul would make a good couple. They could babble on into eternity.

Thats like merging fire with water.... It gets you nowhere. Merging two falsehoods together does not create solutions to our ever mounting problems. When we are totally aware of our problems, then we can begin to find some solutions. But when we don't take the time to understand completely the problems at hand, and just assume that merging opposing (and limiting) ideas will bring answers, then we are stuck in a cycle of problems that can not be fixed.

Neshamah

01-13-2010, 02:32 PM

I do not think he is trying to prove his experiences to everyone at Wacco. I think he is only asking that people with unusual experiences not dismissed as delusional or anti-science.

Science relies on objective evidence, and objective evidence simply does not exist for every subjective experience.

Personally, I know of no proof whatsoever for communication with the deceased or with any other being not verifiable by science. At the same time, I remain open to the possibility.

~ Jessica

We still don't know what electricity is (we just understand better how it behaves), but 500 years ago no one had to take your word for it that it exists.

EVERYONE sees lightning and hears thunder, whether they believe in it or not, and whether you claim it exists or not.

Since the fantasy of possessing special powers that others don't have is probably second only to the fantasy of having good sex, the burden of proof is on those who make such claims.

Clancy

01-13-2010, 03:27 PM

If we were surrounded by billions of dead people trying to communicate with us, then that would be an objective fact of nature. It wouldn't be dependent on belief, or being 'open' to it, any more than electricity is.

I know nothing about him, and I'm not referring to him, but the fact is that millions of people ARE delusional. Ask any therapist. Some are highly functional, many are not. Walk around any bus station or city center and watch them talking to people who don't exist. The voices they hear and the people they see are vivid in their subjective experience.

Then there are the shysters who knowingly take advantage of people. They are often extraordinarily sensitive, articulate and have a knack for convincing people of just about anything at all.

It's not unreasonable to ask for objective proof when people claim to be talking to invisible dead people.

I do not think he is trying to prove his experiences to everyone at Wacco. I think he is only asking that people with unusual experiences not dismissed as delusional or anti-science.

Science relies on objective evidence, and objective evidence simply does not exist for every subjective experience.

Personally, I know of no proof whatsoever for communication with the deceased or with any other being not verifiable by science. At the same time, I remain open to the possibility.

~ Jessica

Vswan

01-13-2010, 10:37 PM

Talking to spirits falls alot closer to religion .....

A Meduim helps people who believe in an afterlife.
A Preist helps them to get to a better afterlife.
A Scientistic try to prove the exsistance of an afterlife.

Still comes back to a belief system... and although science evolves just in the last few years you can see the science of "man made global warming" completely fall apart and replaced with " climate change", which has yet to be proven or disproven. My guess is there are ulterior motives but some people believe it as a religion. Personally I find it ALOT easier to believe in spirits then man made global warming. (mars warming trend: Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says (https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html)

^v^Swan

Sciguy

01-14-2010, 02:40 AM

Vswan:
I have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe someone else can puzzle it out but I can't. A meduim, a preist and a scientistic? There aren't even any such words in our language. Giving you credit for misspelling the first two, what does the third mean? And the statements themselves lead nowhere.

And you think it all comes back to belief systems? Do you really imagine scientists resolve questions by taking a head count. "Hey Marty, do you believe in the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics?" No? Okay, I won't either." Scientists don't professionally believe IN anything until they are discussing subjects so diffuse or indefinable that they can't find a scientific handle to test it out. They do experiments, they report the results, they float theories to explain the results, they retain a skeptical mindset but believing IN ideas has nothing to do with science. That is called religion.

I went to the article you quoted. I tried to find out if there were any journals quoted anywhere. I couldn't find one. There was one reference to a paper that this guy Abdussamatov was supposed to have written about Mars and it turned out to be a website about advertising that had no mention of him. Then I was sent to some report that a bunch of Senators wrote quoting 700 doubters from around the world. He was supposed to be on page 140 but I never found all those pages. Many of them were scientists like me, with knowledge of their fields, but I couldn't come up with a valid opinion about climate change from anything I ever worked on and it seems to me, neither could any of them. There are thousands of subjects that I can't judge because I have not devoted a lifetime of work to them. It's the same with every scientist. Getting a PhD in Chemistry or Geology doesn't make you an expert on everything in the bloody world. Not even if there are 700 non-experts.

As I understand it from my reading, the only way that climate scientists are able to have an opinion comes from creating models of the earth and atmosphere, usually on computers. These models are difficult to create, they have to take into account all kinds of chemical reactions that take place in the atmosphere, they need to account for radiation of all different frequencies, solar irradiation (as if they would forget such a thing), greenhouse gases, temperature feedback loops, on and on and on, thousands of different effects. Sometimes they realize or learn that they left out something significant so they go back and add it into the model. Then they test the models. They try to predict climate of the past where they know the answers. If the models fail there, they have to change the models. Only after years of testing, do they feel secure in making any predictions based on these models. Nobody goes to some geologist and asks "what's your gut feeling since you're a scientist"? Only the lay public thinks that climate change theories are based on political democracy or faith.

Then there is the fact that the richest corporations on earth desperately want to oppose theories of climate change because they don't give a damn what happens to the planet or their country or human life. Nothing matters except having one more multibillion dollar profit year. Chevron made $40 BB in one year. How many scientists and politicians and bogus studies do you think money like that can buy? Wake up and smell the graft!

You and I and Abdussamatov have no credentials for making faith based or politically motivated pronouncements on climate change. I wouldn't know where to start. We would need to have access to these complex models and the supercomputers to run them. All that we can do is listen to the people who spend their lifetimes with a huge pile of details, seeing how they all interrelate and play themselves out. If they say that their models predict anthropogenic warming, we have little alternative but to accept them at their word. We pay them to do that work. Even if you come up with ten thousand scientists who don't have faith, so what? If they can critique the models, okay, that's valid. If they can show that the climate scientists are inveterate liars, okay, let's hear that evidence. But the scientific question is in the hands of the people with the evidence and the models. So let's stop being stupid and trying to subject science to the test of how many hands are raised. If that's your approach, you are so gullible that your testament is even more worthless than I thought.

And if anyone can suggest a significant effect that is not in the models, do you know what happens? The climate change scientists put it into the models. Do you think they are so dumb that they just arbitrarily forget to include effects like the sun's rays? Yet this is what I have heard in the past from deniers, and this is basically what your Russian friend was saying when he says that the sun's variation is responsible for everything.

No one can make a statement on this subject one hundred percent. Models are never perfect. But most of the deniers of climate change are pathetic in their claims.

Paul Palmer

Talking to spirits falls alot closer to religion .....

A Meduim helps people who believe in an afterlife.
A Preist helps them to get to a better afterlife.
A Scientistic try to prove the exsistance of an afterlife.

Still comes back to a belief system... and although science evolves just in the last few years you can see the science of "man made global warming" completely fall apart and replaced with " climate change", which has yet to be proven or disproven. My guess is there are ulterior motives but some people believe it as a religion. Personally I find it ALOT easier to believe in spirits then man made global warming. (mars warming trend: Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says (https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html)

^v^Swan

Maiendra

01-14-2010, 07:22 AM

Thats like merging fire with water.... It gets you nowhere. Merging two falsehoods together does not create solutions to our ever mounting problems. When we are totally aware of our problems, then we can begin to find some solutions. But when we don't take the time to understand completely the problems at hand, and just assume that merging opposing (and limiting) ideas will bring answers, then we are stuck in a cycle of problems that can not be fixed.

Now we're getting somewhere... In moving away from the polarized arguments of this and that, I think what you're saying is that through polarized ideas the problems become more clear and make way for solutions. That may be true and good.

podfish

01-14-2010, 10:36 AM

if it happens frequently at all, and you're as interested in science as you imply, you could make a great contribution to scientific knowledge with a little extra effort. I'm sure some of the people whose relatives you see are too emotional about it to co-operate, but some of them may be willing to participate in a little experiment. So rather than immediately presenting them with your uncanny knowledge of their private business, instead see if they'd cooperate by meeting under controlled conditions a bit later. Science works by measuring and recording data from controlled observations and experiments, which lead to better-designed followup experiments that are intended to gather better data and more refined observations. As you've seen repeatedly mentioned, no-one yet has been willing to participate in this kind of test. Why not start with you?? there's clearly a lot of local interest and I'm sure our skeptics would like nothing more than to have a chance to be proven wrong.

I just happen to see this posting....and I couldn't help but respond....I would like to say that I am well-read in Science, biology, history, math, etc and give modern Science credit for many of the understandings we have of the world and of course it's modern material goodies....
....

Barry

01-14-2010, 10:50 AM

Neshamah

01-14-2010, 11:01 AM

I agree that there are lots of delusional people out there, and lots of dishonest ones. I also think at least the vast majority of claims to speak to the dead, or to spirits, or to extra-terrestials, or to accurately predict the future based on astrology or tarot cards are completely false. I am not however willing to declare all such things must be false.

I personally do not rely on any of the unconventional means of inquiry above, but I am not going to tell anyone else who to trust or how to spend their money.

~ Jess

If we were surrounded by billions of dead people trying to communicate with us, then that would be an objective fact of nature. It wouldn't be dependent on belief, or being 'open' to it, any more than electricity is.

I know nothing about him, and I'm not referring to him, but the fact is that millions of people ARE delusional. Ask any therapist. Some are highly functional, many are not. Walk around any bus station or city center and watch them talking to people who don't exist. The voices they hear and the people they see are vivid in their subjective experience.

Then there are the shysters who knowingly take advantage of people. They are often extraordinarily sensitive, articulate and have a knack for convincing people of just about anything at all.

It's not unreasonable to ask for objective proof when people claim to be talking to invisible dead people.

Clancy

01-14-2010, 11:47 AM

My take on mediums is that it doesn't matter if its factually true or not. If they practice with integrity and compassion, they can be of service to the living in helping them process their grief and unresolved issues with the deceased. :rip:

How can you have integrity about something you say that isn't true?

And for anyone needing to process grief and unresolved issues with the dead, Home Hospice, which is in every major community in the nation, is available with integrous, compassionate bereavement counselors at no charge.

Barry

01-14-2010, 11:54 AM

If the medium/counselor feels they are in touch with the deceased, regardless if its provable, I'd call that in integrity.

How can you have integrity about something you say that isn't true?

And for anyone needing to process grief and unresolved issues with the dead, Home Hospice, which is in every major community in the nation, is available with integrous, compassionate bereavement counselors at no charge.

Clancy

01-14-2010, 12:05 PM

If the medium/counselor feels they are in touch with the deceased, regardless if its provable, I'd call that in integrity.

How will you distinguish between the ones who are lying and those who are hallucinating or just self-deluded?

Neshamah

01-15-2010, 07:46 AM

That is a difficult question, and to a greater or lesser extent can apply to anyone. Trust always involves risk, and some claims involve greater risk than others. Each individual has to decide what level of risk is unacceptable.

How will you distinguish between the ones who are lying and those who are hallucinating or just self-deluded?

Zeno Swijtink

01-15-2010, 08:04 AM

What's stumps me about communicating with the dead is why anyone could think the dead are that interesting or exceptionally wise.

Personally I rather talk to the living if I had a choice.

If normal human psychology still applies to the dead, they must be rather anxious.

Having lost their eyes and ears they have been blind and deaf for as long as they are dead. Having lost their arms and hands they haven't hugged a soul. If they still can communicate it doesn't seem that easy.

You get the picture.

Except for what it is to be dead, what could we learn from the dead that we can't better learn from the living?

Clancy

01-15-2010, 08:45 AM

Except for what it is to be dead, what could we learn from the dead that we can't better learn from the living?

For one thing, we could learn who their murderers were. If the dead could talk, you'd think the murder victims would be lining up by the thousands, telling the "mediums" who did it, with knowledge only the victim and murderer could know, making murder the most solved crime of all, but nooooo...

Zeno Swijtink

01-15-2010, 09:12 AM

For one thing, we could learn who their murderers were. If the dead could talk, you'd think the murder victims would be lining up by the thousands, telling the "mediums" who did it, with knowledge only the victim and murderer could know, making murder the most solved crime of all, but nooooo...

I wonder whether such testimony would be allowed in a court of law.

For the dead the consequences of committing perjury would be a goose egg, nix and nil.

Clancy

01-15-2010, 10:44 AM

I wonder whether such testimony would be allowed in a court of law.

For the dead the consequences of committing perjury would be a goose egg, nix and nil.

You make a good point, it would be messy, but if mediums regularly lead police to missing bodies or murder weapons, the courts would quickly set precedent.

I can't find a single instance of that ever happening though.

meherc

01-15-2010, 09:44 PM

For one thing, we could learn who their murderers were. If the dead could talk, you'd think the murder victims would be lining up by the thousands, telling the "mediums" who did it, with knowledge only the victim and murderer could know, making murder the most solved crime of all, but nooooo...

Maybe they just don't care about that stuff anymore. Who knows? " More things on heaven and earth than are dreamed of....."

Clancy

01-15-2010, 09:55 PM

Maybe they just don't care about that stuff anymore. Who knows? " More things on heaven and earth than are dreamed of....."

Maybe, but then why would they care about all the conveniently vague stuff spiritual mediums claim the dead want to tell the living?

Mediums are the ones making the preposterous claims, the burden/responsibility of proof is on them.

someguy

01-16-2010, 12:21 PM

I thought these videos might put a skip in some of your strides this weekend..

YouTube - Former Miss Teen South Carolina Caite Upton on Psychics PART 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fnjHiq1Fm0)
YouTube - Former Miss Teen South Carolina Caite Upton on Psychics PART 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgTqdM7lgRI)

sharingwisdom

01-16-2010, 10:07 PM

For the doctor and "clueless' Miss teen South Carolina: if the below is even being mentioned, it probably has been developed so why not humans?
Mind-reading machine knows what you see<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
· 15:26 25 April 2005 <o:p></o:p>
· NewScientist.com news service <o:p></o:p>
· It is possible to read someone’s mind by remotely measuring their brain activity, researchers have shown. The technique can even extract information from subjects that they are not aware of themselves.<o:p></o:p>
So far, it has only been used to identify visual patterns a subject can see or has chosen to focus on. But the researchers speculate the approach might be extended to probe a person’s awareness, focus of attention, memory and movement intention. In the meantime, it could help doctors work out if patients apparently in a coma are actually conscious.<o:p></o:p>
Scientists have already trained monkeys (https://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4262) to move a robotic arm with the power of thought and to recreate scenes moving in front of cats by recording information directly from the feline’s neurons (New Scientist print edition, 2 October 1999). But these processes involve implanting electrodes into their brains to hook them up to a computer.<o:p></o:p>
Now Yukiyasu Kamitani, at ATR Computational Neuroscience Laboratories in Kyoto, Japan, and Frank Tong at Princeton University in New Jersey, US, have achieved similar “mind reading” feats remotely using functional MRI scanning. <o:p></o:p>
Between the lines<o:p></o:p>
The pair showed patterns of parallel lines in 1 of 8 orientations to four volunteers. By focusing on brain regions involved in visual perception they were able to recognize which orientation the subjects were observing. <o:p></o:p>
Each line orientation corresponded to a different pattern of brain activity, although the patterns were different in each person. What is more, when two sets of lines were superimposed and the subjects were asked to focus on one set, the researchers could work out which one they were thinking of from the brain images.<o:p></o:p>
In a separate study, also published in Nature Neuroscience, John-Dylan Haynes and Geraint Rees at University College London, UK, showed two patterns in quick succession to 6 volunteers. The first appeared for just 15 milliseconds - too quick to be consciously perceived by the viewer. <o:p></o:p>
But by viewing fMRI images of the brain, the researchers were able to say which image had been flashed in front of the subjects. The information was perceived in the brain even if the volunteers were not consciously aware of it.<o:p></o:p>
The study probed the part of the visual cortex that detects a visual stimulus, but does not perceive it. “It encodes what we don’t see,” Haynes says. He thinks that, further along the visual pathway, brain regions consciously take note that there has been a stimulus. But this does not happen for the “invisible” stimulus.<o:p></o:p>
Consciousness kicks in<o:p></o:p>
By understanding the perception pathway and working out the point at which consciousness kicks in, patient consciousness could be diagnosed. This would mean the setup could be used as a “consciousness-meter,” says Haynes; “a device that allows us to assess whether a patient is consciously perceiving his or her outside environment.” <o:p></o:p>
Yang Dan, a neurobiologist at the University of California in Berkeley, agrees this would be possible. But she cautions that there is little agreement over what consciousness actually is.<o:p></o:p>
More subtle forms of mind-reading such as working out intentions or beliefs are much more speculative, she argues. Even if such subtle information could be gleaned from brain scans both studies suggest the patterns are unique to individuals. <o:p></o:p>
And using the technique as an alternative to the polygraph would be very risky, says Dan. “The relationship between brain patterns and lies may be very loose.” <o:p></o:p>
Journal reference: Nature Neuroscience (DOI: 10.1038/nn1445 and 10.1038/nn1444)<o:p></o:p>
Related Articles<o:p></o:p>
· Behind the mask (https://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18324585.500) <o:p></o:p>
· https://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18324585.500 (https://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18324585.500) <o:p></o:p>
· 31 July 2004 <o:p></o:p>

I thought these videos might put a skip in some of your strides this weekend..

YouTube - Former Miss Teen South Carolina Caite Upton on Psychics PART 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fnjHiq1Fm0)
YouTube - Former Miss Teen South Carolina Caite Upton on Psychics PART 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgTqdM7lgRI)