I just learned from a saliva based kit sent for diagnostics, that I am allergic to dairy, soy, egg and gluten. It is a little bit overwhelming in degree. Any one else out there dealing with being similarly afflicted? Mindy
Since my initial posting I first eliminated all listed allergic food items. Finding gluten, soy, dairy and egg free items is not all that difficult, it allows for every flesh, fruit and vegetable on the planet. I learned a lot, however, yet after about 4 weeks of elimination felt no different and had no diminution of mucous in the system. Meanwhile, I visited Dr.Cindy Zafis to ferret out and treat ala NAET my nervous system and retrain it to not see items as toxins, but as food. There is kineseology, a little bit of nerve stimulation with activator gun bilaterally along spine and a period of rest while holding offending item in hand. The number of potential sensitivities or reactionable items is huge and in my case includes even my body's own endorphins or neurotransmitters and dampness, just to give an example. I have yet to be treated for molds, of which there are indoor and outdoor varieties checked, or own endorphins, however it is on my list of things to do! In addition, I have been attempting regular visits to the community acupuncture clinic in Sebastopol. My needling times are fabulous in that I have felt more energized yet balanced, and the experience itself involves deep relaxation as well. I am working on mucous that way as well. Blessings all. Mindy
Sylph
12-12-2009, 12:34 AM
Hi Mindy,
I'd be a bit skeptical about the saliva test, especially when the ramifications may be a radical change of diet and the time, inconvenience and expense associated with this. I took some time to look for any evidence for saliva tests for food allergies and mostly found various sites selling saliva tests. Nothing much on Google Scholar.
An elimination diet can be useful to tease out possible allergies or sensitivities, but tedious, from what I hear.
Do be skeptical about these findings! Take your time with it.
PS. This is a bad time of year to be eliminating major (delicious) food groups!
from an allergist's website
https://www.allergy-clinic.co.uk/introduction-to-allergy/controversial-tests/ (https://www.allergy-clinic.co.uk/introduction-to-allergy/controversial-tests/)
Beware of anecdotal and unsubstantiated allergy tests<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
There are a plethora of so-called tests for “Intolerances” including urine, stool and saliva as well as Bio-resonance (Vibrational Medicine) and Iridology. These tests are often promoted as “wonder” diagnoses and anecdotal stories of lifelong allergies finally being accurately diagnosed abound. It would be naïve for any medical practitioners to accept these individual anecdotal reports of diagnostic efficacy without any scientifically validated studies to prove their worth. We often read about similar tests in the media and unsuspecting patients flock to part with their hard-earned money. Conventional medical practitioners may be accused of bias against these supposedly simple and “cheap” tests and feel pressurized to try them out. On the other hand, a convincing <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">CAM</st1:place> practitioner armed with an impressive allergy-diagnosing “contraption” can talk even the most sensible patient into believing their pseudo-scientific explanations and anecdotal reports of allergy cures. Once the patient realizes that they have been incorrectly diagnosed, they may feel embarrassed, put the matter down to bad experience and hardly ever complain about the treatment or costs involved<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
https://journals.lww.com/co-allergy/Abstract/2001/06000/The_epidemiology_of_food_allergy.5.aspx (https://journals.lww.com/co-allergy/Abstract/2001/06000/The_epidemiology_of_food_allergy.5.aspx)
A diagnosis of food allergy/intolerance must be based on a double-blind placebo-controlled food challenge, and not on the patient's or doctor's impression.
alanora
12-12-2009, 09:35 AM
Thank you so much for your thoughtful and researched response to my post. I have read and understood the links you provided. I have had one person contact me , with the same "allergies" and then some, who reports, anecdotal of course, feeling better than in years after four months of elimination. I intend to question the diagnostic company re;methods and methodology. I will forward the info to prescribing doc. I am tending toward giving it a try as it is obvious that with possibly the addition of some mineral supplementation re the loss of dairy, and possibly the addition of juicing bunches of chard, kale etc. in with some carrot and apple and cucumber and and and, I can maintain..improve the level of my nutrition within the limitations. After all, there is every fruit and vegetable and flesh food available to me. Am not certain about rice, quinoa amaranth, etc yet. It will be easy enough to slip later on and assess effect myself I think, though that is anecdotal as well. Would be funny if markers found actually indicated some kind of protection to offending matter or even just exposure instead of allergy or sensitization, and I most certainly do not know. Thank you again. It felt caring and kind and wise. Mindy
Hi Mindy,
I'd be a bit skeptical about the saliva test, especially when the ramifications may be a radical change of diet and the time, inconvenience and expense associated with this. I took some time to look for any evidence for saliva tests for food allergies and mostly found various sites selling saliva tests. Nothing much on Google Scholar.
An elimination diet can be useful to tease out possible allergies or sensitivities, but tedious, from what I hear.
Do be skeptical about these findings! Take your time with it.
PS. This is a bad time of year to be eliminating major (delicious) food groups!
from an allergist's website
https://www.allergy-clinic.co.uk/introduction-to-allergy/controversial-tests/ (https://www.allergy-clinic.co.uk/introduction-to-allergy/controversial-tests/)
Beware of anecdotal and unsubstantiated allergy tests<o:p></o:p>
There are a plethora of so-called tests for “Intolerances” including urine, stool and saliva as well as Bio-resonance (Vibrational Medicine) and Iridology. These tests are often promoted as “wonder” diagnoses and anecdotal stories of lifelong allergies finally being accurately diagnosed abound. It would be naïve for any medical practitioners to accept these individual anecdotal reports of diagnostic efficacy without any scientifically validated studies to prove their worth. We often read about similar tests in the media and unsuspecting patients flock to part with their hard-earned money. Conventional medical practitioners may be accused of bias against these supposedly simple and “cheap” tests and feel pressurized to try them out. On the other hand, a convincing <st1:place w:st="on">CAM</st1:place> practitioner armed with an impressive allergy-diagnosing “contraption” can talk even the most sensible patient into believing their pseudo-scientific explanations and anecdotal reports of allergy cures. Once the patient realizes that they have been incorrectly diagnosed, they may feel embarrassed, put the matter down to bad experience and hardly ever complain about the treatment or costs involved<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
https://journals.lww.com/co-allergy/Abstract/2001/06000/The_epidemiology_of_food_allergy.5.aspx (https://journals.lww.com/co-allergy/Abstract/2001/06000/The_epidemiology_of_food_allergy.5.aspx)
A diagnosis of food allergy/intolerance must be based on a double-blind placebo-controlled food challenge, and not on the patient's or doctor's impression.
Barry
12-12-2009, 10:05 AM
Hi Mindy,
I was extremely allergic to eggs several years ago, which was validated by a blood test and by the fact that I would always fall asleep an hour or so after I ate them.
I'm a bit of a skeptic regarding many types of woo-woo medicine, but I was astounded that this was remedied by ONE TREATMENT of a muscle-testing/acupuncture based technique called N-something-something :hmmm: (three letters... Can someone help me?). Carina Wagner (707) 823-3456, who I highly recommend, helped me. I also met a lovely couple who were new to the area about a year ago who also offer the technique.
Good Luck!
Barry
I just learned from a saliva based kit sent for diagnostics, that I am allergic to dairy, soy, egg and gluten. It is a little bit overwhelming in degree. Any one else out there dealing with being similarly afflicted? Mindy
AllorrahBe
12-12-2009, 02:17 PM
:hello:
At the Wellness Fair in Sebastapol in October, I met Dr. Cindy Zafis, Chiropractor, with office in Santa Rosa: 527-7710. She muscle-tested me and introduced me to the "Nambudripad Allergy Elimination Technique - NAET" discovered by a California acupuncturist Devi S. Nambudripad, D.C., O.M.D., Ph.D. in Buena Park, CA.
"Your brain re-interprets what it used to think was a poison, seeing it now as a harmless, acceptable substance. This produces a totally new, permanent and irreversible response to the allergen, leaving you allergy-free."
This quote is from Dr. Cindy's newsletter she gave me that day. When she tested me, she said I am allergic to my own lactic acid and endorphins! But she has substances that can help. The article says Dr. Nambudripad has taught NAET to about 625 doctors. It also says: "there is hardly any human disease or condition in which allergic factors are not involved."
Other scientists and doctors are now saying "inflammation" is the main cause of most diseases, if not all. But where does the inflammation come from? Probably from allergies!
The newsletter has a big list of many kinds of things people can be allergic to, and another quote that leaps off the page: "The secret to NAET is to retrain your brain and nervous system to no longer react to the offending substance. "We can reprogram our brains to perceive unsuitable energies as suitable ones and use them for our benefit rather than allow them to cause energy blockages and imbalances."
When I met my new housemate, I mentioned Dr. Cindy and my plan to see her soon. She told me her son had been a patient and he had been allergic to Magnesium. He now takes magnesium supplementation and it has "cured" or positively affected some kind of attention deficit condition, or something of that nature. I'm not sure exactly what...
I am just completing a series of 10 treatments with another chiropractor, but plan to see Dr. Cindy next month, if she accepts my Medicare insurance.
I do hope this helps. I'm sure she would be happy to send the newsletter to you, and maybe arrange a consultation?
Many blessings and Happy Health!
Rev. Allorrah Be, CAHt.
Circles of Light Ministries
Santa Rosa, California
707/526-1247 [email protected]
:heart:
Barry
12-12-2009, 03:26 PM
:hello:
She muscle-tested me and introduced me to the "Nambudripad Allergy Elimination Technique - NAET" discovered by a California acupuncturist Devi S. Nambudripad, D.C., O.M.D., Ph.D.
:heart:
Yeah, that's the ticket! NAET - I guess I forget a "something". :wink: And I also forgot that Dr. Cindy offers NAET as well! Thanks, Allorrah!
alanora
12-12-2009, 07:05 PM
I will be checking into this option as a way of avoiding the whole food elimination thing. I have removed offenders from the cupboard but perhaps I should hold off on giving them away. Meanwhile I spent quite bit of money at Andy's today. It seems that something cannot be gluten free if manufactured where glutenous things are processed as well. I saw oats labeled gluten free yet lists I have seen say no to the oats. Very confuzzling, read lots of labels. Corn tortillas and avocado and apple and peanut butter for dinner. Mindy
Yeah, that's the ticket! NAET - I guess I forget a "something". :wink: And I also forgot that Dr. Cindy offers NAET as well! Thanks, Allorrah!
stuartdole
12-12-2009, 09:42 PM
Hi Barry & Everyone:
"NAET" works for about 80% of the people that really give it an honest try (like 10 sessions) - a few get cured in one treatment - like Barry. It saved my ex's life, quite literally.
I was certified to do NAET many years ago, and I still have all the little test vials, but I haven't done it in a long time. There are a bunch of similar therapies out there - most are an acronym that ends in 'T' - and they all seem to help some people. I particularly like TAT (see https://www.tatlife.com/) - it seems the most "minimalist" or Zen-like of the ones I've investigated, and you learn to do it for yourself. (It's originally an offshoot of NAET.) I've used it to clear up my own wheat and garlic allergies, and a nasty dust allergy I got whenever I pruned the butterfly bush by our front door.
I'd recommend anyone who wants to try NAET to check out the chiro mentioned, Cindy Zafis, as well as the NAET website for other certified practitioners. Or if you like a more DIY approach, check out TAT - there are good videos and other materials on the TAT website.
Yeah, NAET is truly bizarre. But it’s “worked” for enough people I know that I continue to recommend it. Like I said, it literally saved the life of someone dear to me. That said, I’ve had equivalent success with the much simpler TAT, so that’s what I use now. As a Ph.D. biophysicist, I know there is no conventional scientific reason for why it should work, and lots for why it shouldn’t. But I enjoy exploring the “outliers” and strange things, following the miracles.
Consequently, I trained with Dr. Nambudripad. What a trip! She’s one powerful lady. She’s got an energy field around her that’s at least as strong as Steve Jobs’ (of Apple Computer fame). I came away with the idea that the details of the technique are not particularly important, but the power of strong intention and a sufficiently Byzantine ritual is something to be reckoned with. It was a little odd being the only non-chiropractor in the trainings.
Since then, in my quest to “follow the miracles”, I’ve trained with several powerful shamans. I now have a deeper understanding for why it might work (“it” meaning all the energy-medicine techniques that end in the letter ‘T’ – NAET, TAT, BEST, EFT, etc.). I'm still working on how to explain it! So, more later...
Even in the conventional medical-scientific model, the immune system (which is very complex to begin with – lots of parts to it) can be thought of as part of the unconscious mind – the brain stem is deeply involved with many immune processes. Then whatever you can do (ritual, affirmations, meridian stimulation, etc.) that can trick the deeper brain stem and hypothalamus into cleaning up the immune system’s responses is a good thing! Half of medicine is placebo anyway, so why not really harness that? Won’t work for everybody, but it seems to work for most – so it’s a “good thing” in my book.
The other side of the picture is the really out-there shamanic process that may be happening. The realm of true miracles. That’s another story!
Happy trails,
Stuart
Juggledude
12-13-2009, 11:08 AM
Hi Mindy,
...<snip>... I'm a bit of a skeptic regarding many types of woo-woo medicine, ...<snip>...
Barry
Hey, you can't say "Woo Woo" on this board, this is Sebastopol, after all!
Where's the moderator when you need him?
:wink:
Sylph
12-13-2009, 05:31 PM
It’s absolutely fascinating to see “mind over matter” in action. The effects are real even if the methods have no scientific basis... “..the details of the technique are not particularly important, but the power of strong intention and a sufficiently Byzantine ritual is something to be reckoned with.” A charismatic healer with a forceful persona can work wonders, I am sure. Great story about meeting Nambudripad, thanks! <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
But…this is not a great argument in my humble, skeptical opinion:“Yeah, NAET is truly bizarre. But it’s “worked” for enough people I know that I continue to recommend it.”
Bloodletting was considered an effective treatment for many years and I’m sure people felt better after it because they expected to feel better (if they survived it!).<o:p></o:p>
The main thing I have a problem with, in fact it makes me crazy, is the muscle-testing part. This has been proven to be bogus. I would hate to have my diet or any other aspect of my life dictated by some random diagnosis arrived at through muscle testing,( AKA applied kinesiology).<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_kinesiology<o:p></o:p>
A double-blind study was conducted by the ALTA Foundation for Sports Medicine Research in Santa Monica, California and published in the June 1988 Journal of the American Dietetic Association. The study used 3 experienced AK practitioners and concluded that, "The results of this study indicated that the use of Applied Kinesiology to evaluate nutrient status is no more useful than random guessing.
<o:p></o:p>
https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/ideomotor.html
Some years ago I participated in a test of applied kinesiology at Dr. Wallace Sampson's medical office in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Mountain View</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">California</st1:State></st1:place>. A team of chiropractors came to demonstrate the procedure. Several physician observers and the chiropractors had agreed that chiropractors would first be free to illustrate applied kinesiology in whatever manner they chose. Afterward, we would try some double-blind tests of their claims.
The chiropractors presented as their major example a demonstration they believed showed that the human body could respond to the difference between glucose (a "bad" sugar) and fructose (a "good" sugar). The differential sensitivity was a truism among "alternative healers," though there was no scientific warrant for it. The chiropractors had volunteers lie on their backs and raise one arm vertically. They then would put a drop of glucose (in a solution of water) on the volunteer's tongue. The chiropractor then tried to push the volunteer's upraised arm down to a horizontal position while the volunteer tried to resist. In almost every case, the volunteer could not resist. The chiropractors stated the volunteer's body recognized glucose as a "bad" sugar. After the volunteer's mouth was rinsed out and a drop of fructose was placed on the tongue, the volunteer, in just about every test, resisted movement to the horizontal position. The body had recognized fructose as a "good" sugar.
After lunch a nurse brought us a large number of test tubes, each one coded with a secret number so that we could not tell from the tubes which contained fructose and which contained glucose. The nurse then left the room so that no one in the room during the subsequent testing would consciously know which tubes contained glucose and which fructose. The arm tests were repeated, but this time they were double-blind -- neither the volunteer, the chiropractors, nor the onlookers was aware of whether the solution being applied to the volunteer's tongue was glucose or fructose. As in the morning session, sometimes the volunteers were able to resist and other times they were not. We recorded the code number of the solution on each trial. Then the nurse returned with the key to the code. When we determined which trials involved glucose and which involved fructose, there was no connection between ability to resist and whether the volunteer was given the "good" or the "bad" sugar.
When these results were announced, the head chiropractor turned to me and said, "You see, that is why we never do double-blind testing anymore. It never works!" At first I thought he was joking. It turned it out he was quite serious. Since he "knew" that applied kinesiology works, and the best scientific method shows that it does not work, then -- in his mind -- there must be something wrong with the scientific method. This is both a form of loopholism as well as an illustration of what I call the plea for special dispensation. Many pseudo- and fringe-scientists often react to the failure of science to confirm their prized beliefs, not by gracefully accepting the possibility that they were wrong, but by arguing that science is defective.
<o:p></o:p>
Barry
12-13-2009, 09:00 PM
Hey, you can't say "Woo Woo" on this board, this is Sebastopol, after all!
Where's the moderator when you need him?
:wink:
Being that the moderator holed up in Tubac, Arizona with Mrs. Wacco investigating a co-housing opportunity, I can say anything I damn well please, f*cking hippies! :wink:
arthurr
12-14-2009, 12:19 AM
Years ago a Chiropractor talked me into trying NAET for my allergies. I did not tell her about the foods I am severely allergic to because I wanted to see if NAET would pick them up. The muscle testing missed every one of the foods that I am allergic to but the chiropractor told me I was allergic to dairy and wheat - the usual suspects. I did not go back for a second session. In my opinion NAET is pure quackery.
daynurse
12-14-2009, 07:43 AM
As a person with Celiac Disease who has been coerced (by the disease) into learning as much about it as I can absorb, I thought I'd address the issue of "Gluten Free Oats".
You are on the right track when you mention that food processed in the same facilities or with the same equipment as wheat, barley or rye becomes contaminated with gluten and can't be tolerated by persons with Celiac Disease.
Most oats are milled in the same mills as wheat, barley or rye. Controls over the labeling "Gluten Free" require separate facilities and equipment for the product. So, the gluten free oats are considered safe. It's been my experience that they do not cause the flare ups for me.
Oats are naturally free of gluten.
Celiac Disease is NOT an "allergy" to wheat but rather an inability of the intestine to absorb the gluten. The gluten causes an inflammatory process which creates certain toxins which destroy the basic structure of the intestine as well as creeping into the blood system wreaking havoc in many many serious, even life threatening ways.
Symptoms you wouldn't expect from an allergy have been found to be attributable to celiac disease. For instance, migraine, depression, chronic fatigue, etc. The best book I've found about this subject, an the most current, is Celiac Disease, A Silent Epidemic by Dr. Peter Greene.
Hope this helps.
Peggy
stuartdole
12-14-2009, 04:19 PM
Hi again Sylph...
"Muscle testing" gets into interesting waters. I did some research and found references to 19th c. Siberian shamans using much the same technique - well, they hefted skulls of their ancestors to see how heavy or light they felt, rather than wrenching someone's arm, to get yes/no answers. I also attended a wonderful demonstration of a similar technique being used by an Inuit elder, only he used the client's actual living head, rather than just the skull - hefting to get yes/no answers.
I'd give these techniques - muscle testing - the name "somatic divination", because it's not really "testing" - it's really a method of divination, like geomancy or Tarot reading. (I got badly flamed by a chiropractor on another board when I mentioned "divination" - they're touchy about the subject.)
I gave a talk about somatic divination to a shamanic conference a few years back, that was well received. I've cataloged several dozen variants. I find it an interesting topic!
I have practiced various forms of somatic divination - for fun, mostly. I've learned a subtle variant I can do with one hand in my pocket. I used it to win $2.75 from a slot machine in the Las Vegas Airport, I use it to tell when the artichokes are done when I'm cooking, and I used it to win a can of macadamia nuts from United Airlines on a trip to Hawaii. That said, I believe it's really divination, not "testing". As divination, you need to be spiritually and energetically connected to what you're trying to divine, you need to carefully frame your question with that in mind, and it's definitely outside of the normal scientific world view. I appreciate the story about the failure of the double blind test! I've had it "fail" for me too, sometimes in spectacular ways. Oh well - the macadamia nuts were delicious. (FWIW: All the alternative medicine "saliva tests", "hair tests", etc. use a variant of the same technique - usually they measure the skin conductance of the tester and show it on a computer readout so it looks scientific. Caveat emptor!)
So, I wouldn't say it's completely "bogus", rather it's a horse of a different color... And about bloodletting - hey, I'm a regular donor at the Blood Bank - and I feel a lot better afterwards - maybe it's the free cookies?
<o:p></o:p>
alanora
12-15-2009, 12:08 AM
stuart dole said: All the alternative medicine "saliva tests", "hair tests", etc. use a variant of the same technique - usually they measure the skin conductance of the tester and show it on a computer readout so it looks scientific. Caveat emptor!) Diagnos-techs uses a Secretory IgA system to identify substances that your mucous membrane antibody system treats as a potential toxin. IgA should NOT bind to common foods. A couple of abstracts, that might help:
This from the test ordering doc:
Secretory ComponentA New Role in Secretory IgA Mediated Immune Exclusion In Vivo
Immunity, Volume 17, Issue 1, Pages 107-115
A.Phalipon, A. Cardona, J. Kraehenbuhl, L. Edelman, P. Sansonetti, B. Corthésy
Abstract : Secretory immunoglobulin (Ig) A (SIgA) is essential in protecting mucosal surfaces. It is composed of at least two monomeric IgA molecules, covalently linked through the J chain, and secretory component (SC). We show here that a dimeric/polymeric IgA (IgAd/p) is more efficient when bound to SC in protecting mice against bacterial infection of the respiratory tract. We demonstrate that SC ensures, through its carbohydrate residues, the appropriate tissue localization of SIgA by anchoring the antibody to mucus lining the epithelial surface. This in turn impacts the
localization and the subsequent clearance of bacteria. Thus, SC is directly
involved in the SIgA function in vivo. Therefore, binding of IgAd/p
to SC during the course of SIgA-mediated mucosal response constitutes a crucial
step in achieving efficient protection of the epithelial barrier by immune
exclusion.
An important activity of mucosal surfaces is the production of Ab referred to as secretory IgA (SIgA). SIgA serves as the first line of defense against microorganisms through a mechanism called immune exclusion. In addition, SIgA adheres selectively to M cells in intestinal Peyer’s patches, thus mediating the transepithelial transport of the Ab molecule from the intestinal lumen to underlying gut-associated organized lymphoid tissue. In Peyer’s patches, SIgA binds and is internalized by dendritic cells in the subepithelial dome region. When used as carrier for Ags in oral immunization, SIgA induces mucosal and systemic responses associated with production of anti-inflammatory cytokines and limits activation of dendritic cells. In terms of humoral immunity at mucosal surfaces, SIgA appears thus to combine properties of a neutralizing agent (immune exclusion) and of a mucosal immunopotentiator inducing effector immune responses in a noninflammatory context favorable to preserve local homeostasis of the gastrointestinal tract.
Sorry if this is too arcane.... Personally I never "believe" any lab test is the absolute truth; they are tools pointing the right direction.
I think I get from this that IgD is only present in the presence of toxins, as perceived by the mucosal lining of the gut. arrrgh, Mindy
Sylph
12-15-2009, 08:28 PM
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>
It is possible to test applied kinesiology and debunk it, as has been done in several studies. Even extremely smart and experienced folks are susceptible to this sort of thing. I have seen this phenomenon (pendulum divination, kinesiology) demonstrated in crowds of smart, degreed people and everyone ‘oohs and ahhs’! It really is amazing.
I don't think truth is relative in this case.. It is possible to "know" what is going on here. I'm sorry if it's not as exciting as it might seem on the surface!
<o:p> </o:p>
The ideomotor effect has been known for over 150 years, yet it is still not a widely known phenomenon. It tends to be used, rightly, as an explanation for dowsing and the Ouija board. Its scope however, is much wider than that and it should be a more widely known explanation for delusions, especially those of medical quacks.<o:p></o:p>
The ideomotor effect is a classic example of how we can be fooled by our senses and ourselves. Many people believe in things because they have experienced them for themselves; they trust in the perceived infallibility of their senses.<o:p></o:p>
The ideomotor effect is just one example of why we should use objective, scientific testing rather than rely on subjective, personal experience to work out what is real and what is not.<o:p></o:p>
https://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir=articles&article=ideomotor_effect.php
</o:p>
ItsaNewDawn
12-16-2009, 10:23 AM
This is a nice thread. always good to share ideas and techniques!
I have tried Naet' and wanted to chime in here. I suggest it as a possibility for some. when you are reactin/suffering its good to try many things as each has different attributes or it could also be timing.
During a NAET session one holds the vial and the practitoner runs a roller upndown the spine. what that does is create a new relationship w that substance. The only thing is, that for me it took many, many rolls and she got tired! my allergies were so severe so it didnt work as good on me as on others.
Then this same practitoner came in one day w a new system to offer called BodyTalk. When I got several treatments, I began to be able to eat many things i couldnt all my life. not to mention, feel better all over. So then I became a practitioner of BodyTalk because of this great experience. It basically connects the body parts and bio chemical processes within the body so it can work properly. therfore not allergic reactions. It also releases emotional experiences or stress. love it!
I am open to contact if anyone wants to know more.
good luck and blessings on your healing journey~ as part of it is discovery.
:Yinyangv:
stuartdole
12-16-2009, 12:13 PM
Hi Alanora et al:
I don't mind the technical stuff - I was a biophysicist at one point in a previous life. (I don't know about others following this thread - if anyone can get past the fireworks over in the vegan thread!) I guess the testing company must have a massive micro array to measure binding of IgA? If so, all well and good, and another victory for allopathic medicine. I think this just validates the complexity of the immune system!
My point was that there are many alternative therapy modalities out there where you (or your practitioner) send a hair sample (or some other bit of your body) off to a "lab" somewhere and you get back a huge printout of everything you're allergic to, with numbers to five decimal places. And what these labs really do is muscle test a "technician" while he/she hold or looks at your sample, and a galvanometer (like a lie detector) reads his/her skin conductance and prints out the number. Not that this is "bad" - it's just what it is. If your technician is descended from a long line of gifted Guatemalan curanderas, or Romany fortune tellers, you my get really interesting information. Or not. The point is YMMV.
More about IgA and its friends - I participated in a study where we tested whether a shamanic journey - a journey with the intent to "Increase your salivary IgA concentration" - could actually change IgA levels. It did - approximately doubled it, in fact, compared to other activities. (Unpublished results)
Happy trails...
stuart dole said: All the alternative medicine "saliva tests", "hair tests", etc. use a variant of the same technique - usually they measure the skin conductance of the tester and show it on a computer readout so it looks scientific. Caveat emptor!) Diagnos-techs uses a Secretory IgA system to identify substances that your mucous membrane antibody system treats as a potential toxin. IgA should NOT bind to common foods. A couple of abstracts, that might help:
This from the test ordering doc:
Secretory ComponentA New Role in Secretory IgA Mediated Immune Exclusion In Vivo
Immunity, Volume 17, Issue 1, Pages 107-115
........
I think I get from this that IgD is only present in the presence of toxins, as perceived by the mucosal lining of the gut. arrrgh, Mindy
alanora
12-16-2009, 12:24 PM
What do you know about IgD? _D_ ? And, if meditation can effect concentrations of IgA then there is reason to suspect ritual intent/naet to also have effect no? Did you say you had the vials with allergens inside? I am wondering if I could effect my own cure by using these somehow, energetically of course....Meanwhile am maintaining dietary restrictions....arrrgh. It is doable, I would rather focus my attentions elsewhere, and be able to put mayo on my tuna..all substitutes had soy. Thanks for listening to me whine. Blessings, Mindy
Hi Alanora et al:
I don't mind the technical stuff - I was a biophysicist at one point in a previous life. (I don't know about others following this thread - if anyone can get past the fireworks over in the vegan thread!) I guess the testing company must have a massive micro array to measure binding of IgA? If so, all well and good, and another victory for allopathic medicine. I think this just validates the complexity of the immune system!
My point was that there are many alternative therapy modalities out there where you (or your practitioner) send a hair sample (or some other bit of your body) off to a "lab" somewhere and you get back a huge printout of everything you're allergic to, with numbers to five decimal places. And what these labs really do is muscle test a "technician" while he/she hold or looks at your sample, and a galvanometer (like a lie detector) reads his/her skin conductance and prints out the number. Not that this is "bad" - it's just what it is. If your technician is descended from a long line of gifted Guatemalan curanderas, or Romany fortune tellers, you my get really interesting information. Or not. The point is YMMV.
More about IgA and its friends - I participated in a study where we tested whether a shamanic journey - a journey with the intent to "Increase your salivary IgA concentration" - could actually change IgA levels. It did - approximately doubled it, in fact, compared to other activities. (Unpublished results)
Happy trails...
alanora
12-16-2009, 03:05 PM
My phone calls to the two offices suggested for naet found Dr.Cindy Zafis chiropractor, to be less expensive than Carina Wagner acupuncturist. fyi In addition, further phone message states that Carina Wagner does not use naet for allergies to something you plan on putting in your body again. She stated it was not that effective. Fascinating. Mindy
What do you know about IgD? _D_ ? And, if meditation can effect concentrations of IgA then there is reason to suspect ritual intent/naet to also have effect no? Did you say you had the vials with allergens inside? I am wondering if I could effect my own cure by using these somehow, energetically of course....Meanwhile am maintaining dietary restrictions....arrrgh. It is doable, I would rather focus my attentions elsewhere, and be able to put mayo on my tuna..all substitutes had soy. Thanks for listening to me whine. Blessings, Mindy
Sylph
12-16-2009, 10:05 PM
Here is the Bodytalk originator. I gave myself a treatment right here in front of the computer!
The BodyTalk System - The Cortices Technique - Wellsphere (https://stanford.wellsphere.com/complementary-alternative-medicine-article/the-bodytalk-system-the-cortices-technique/853671)
I'll ask my immunologist friend about IgD, but from what I could find out, it's not that well understood and it's a bit of a red flag to me that the lab is using IgD (in my humble opinion, of course! :)). My immunologist friend said that we develop salivary IgA in response to most everything we are in contact with, but it would be the amount that is crucial... and that everyone is different. It doesn't seem that a single saliva test would give a reliable, standardized reading of IgA.
Taking the most usual offenders (wheat, dairy) out of your diet, seeing how it goes and then adding them back in seems like the most practical way of figuring out what is going on.
Regarding mayo,
There are recipes for cashew mayo...I've never tried to make it, but I've tasted it and it's yummy.
Ira
01-26-2010, 09:26 PM
Hi again Sylph...
"Muscle testing" gets into interesting waters. I did some research and found references to 19th c. Siberian shamans using much the same technique - well, they hefted skulls of their ancestors to see how heavy or light they felt, rather than wrenching someone's arm, to get yes/no answers. I also attended a wonderful demonstration of a similar technique being used by an Inuit elder, only he used the client's actual living head, rather than just the skull - hefting to get yes/no answers.
I'd give these techniques - muscle testing - the name "somatic divination", because it's not really "testing" - it's really a method of divination, like geomancy or Tarot reading. (I got badly flamed by a chiropractor on another board when I mentioned "divination" - they're touchy about the subject.)
I gave a talk about somatic divination to a shamanic conference a few years back, that was well received. I've cataloged several dozen variants. I find it an interesting topic!
I have practiced various forms of somatic divination - for fun, mostly. I've learned a subtle variant I can do with one hand in my pocket. I used it to win $2.75 from a slot machine in the Las Vegas Airport, I use it to tell when the artichokes are done when I'm cooking, and I used it to win a can of macadamia nuts from United Airlines on a trip to Hawaii. That said, I believe it's really divination, not "testing". As divination, you need to be spiritually and energetically connected to what you're trying to divine, you need to carefully frame your question with that in mind, and it's definitely outside of the normal scientific world view. I appreciate the story about the failure of the double blind test! I've had it "fail" for me too, sometimes in spectacular ways. Oh well - the macadamia nuts were delicious. (FWIW: All the alternative medicine "saliva tests", "hair tests", etc. use a variant of the same technique - usually they measure the skin conductance of the tester and show it on a computer readout so it looks scientific. Caveat emptor!)
So, I wouldn't say it's completely "bogus", rather it's a horse of a different color... And about bloodletting - hey, I'm a regular donor at the Blood Bank - and I feel a lot better afterwards - maybe it's the free cookies?
<o:p></o:p>Hi Stuart and everyone else,
After having moved here in September of 08 I am finally getting around to reading the magnificent posts on this board. We are the couple that practice NAET that Barry met when we first arrived here. He told me about the board and we joined, although it is only recently that I have begun to use it.
What Stuart is saying concerning the "Shamanic Divination or Somatic Divination" aspect of muscle testing is a very aware comment. And very timely! Many of the "new age or holistic" practices are a form of Energy Medicine. Some work extremely well, not just because of the practice itself, but because of the connection of the practioner to the "Source" for want of a better word. That is in my opinion why some folks can use muscle testing with extraordinary clarity and some folks can't.
Now I know some of you are going to say "uh, oh, woo, woo" and I don't blame you. My wife and I were extremely skeptical when we first heard about NAET. But she was seriously ill and needed help. And to make a long story short Dr. Devi's methods turned our lives around and enabled us to find a new level of health. We owe her a great debt of gratitude.
And just to let you know I have been on both sides of the "science versus energy" debate for a very long time. Like Stuart in another earlier life I was a Certified Financial Planner as well as a trained Acupuncturist two very opposing world views.
I have suspected for quite a while that my wife has become a skilled practioneer with NAET and EFT, not just because of all the training we have had, but because of her connection to the shamanic practices that she is absorbed into as part of her belief structure.
It is true that when people become "desperate", the power of belief can change and motivate them to incredible levels. And yes, as Stuart says there is a placebo effect that can also occur. Think of the mother who in a burst of adrenaline can lift the car off of her child. In her "normal" state of mind this is impossible. Or the sugar pills that can calm high blood pressure or make the headaches go away.
Over 30 years ago I watched a Yogi slow his heart until the beats were almost imperceptible. He was wired to machinery and stunned the scientists who observed this. I saw a Tibetan Buddhist Master who days after his body's death still had warmth and heat around the area of his heart and no discernible decay or rigor, causing the Western doctors who had treated him while he was alive to scratch their heads at this scientific impossibility. For them science was like a religion and this went against their beliefs.
Mind is the cause and the answer. Do our beliefs affect us? Absolutely! Is there an emotional basis to our ills? Absolutely! Can we change dis-ease through our "will to become healthy"? Absolutely! I truly believe that nothing is impossible any more. What we imagine can be made real.
I'd like to thank all of you for your comments as this is a wonderful thread.