H1N1 Flu Shot discussion and links [Archive]

Sylph

11-08-2009, 10:26 AM

Why get a shot that can't possibly work? After all they started making this in the spring, and the virus they are using is a virus that lived in the spring. Unfortunately viruses are constantly mutating, so the flu that is going around now is not the same as the one that was going around in the spring that produced todays flu shot.

The vaccine is still a good match for the virus

FRIDAY, Sept. 25 (HealthDay News) -- The genetic makeup of the H1N1 swine flu continues to remain stable, making the forthcoming vaccine a "good match" for the virus, U.S. health officials reported Friday.<o:p></o:p>

And, though the virus continues to spread throughout all 50 states, most cases are mild to moderate, much like the regular "seasonal" flu, the officials said.<o:p></o:p>

"H1N1 is spreading widely throughout the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region>, particularly in the southern states, but in most of the country H1N1 activity is now widespread," Dr. Thomas R. Frieden, director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said during an afternoon news conference.<o:p></o:p>

As was the case during the outbreak in the spring, when the H1N1 swine flu first surfaced in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">United States</st1:country-region> and <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Mexico</st1:place></st1:country-region>, the disease continues to affect mostly young adults and children, Frieden said.<o:p></o:p>

And though most cases are mild to moderate, the swine flu is "no picnic," he noted. When you get it, you can have several bad days, "and in severe cases, it can even put you in the hospital," he said.<o:p></o:p>

Frieden said that testing shows no genetic changes in the H1N1 virus, which he described as "really good news."<o:p></o:p>

Swine Flu Virus Not Mutating, Making Vaccine a Good Match: MedlinePlus (https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_89856.html)

Clancy

11-11-2009, 11:12 AM

Most flu is deadly, that's why on average 36,000 people a year in America die from it. BUT, compared to average seasonal flu, H1N1 is relatively mild.

No one is disputing that some people get terribly sick from H1N1, and at least several thousand will die in the US, the question is why is this particular strain being treated by the media as if it's unusual when it's actually fairly benign as flu viruses go.

My concern is that the public will become inured to the media crying wolf, and when the inevitable catastrophic flu virus does visit us, won't take it seriously.

I am a healthcare worker, working in a trauma unit locally. I have taken care of patients with h1n1. It is a deadly disease, enough so that patients have been recovering there some for weeks. I have been vacinated with the H1N1 and strongly feel by experience, that anyone who has the opportunity to get this vacine and doesn't take it is silly. I did not have any ill effects from it or my normal seasonal flu shot. I am also a proponent of herbal remedies in lieu of antibiotics when deemed, however holistic can not prevent or stop this epidemic. We are fitted with special masks and suspected h1n1 cases are isolated until ruled out. This involves mask, gown and of course gloves. Proper handwashing is essential also for prevention. So you might say, I am more apt to contract H1N1 since I am on the "front". So are you. When you shop, go to the doctors office, visit friends, get coffee. Some of you may simply disagree with me, but that's your choice. I see what this deadly virus can do. Have you? Get your shots everyone when available.

Ridinrn

11-11-2009, 12:02 PM

Clancy

11-11-2009, 12:31 PM

The World Health Organization, The Washington Post, and the CDC among others. We've been discussing this a while here and I've provided links on several other threads.

The average rate of hospitalization for typical seasonal flu is 10 to 20 times higher than for H1N1, and only 1 out of every two thousand people who contract H1N1 die... here's one of our prior discussions with links
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccoreader/59160-wine-flu-characteristics-becoming-more-evident.html#post99514

In response to H1N1 being "relatively benign" and the media essentially overdoing it, I would like to know your credentials for submitting that statement....and where you get your information. Thanks

Ridinrn

11-11-2009, 12:45 PM

You have the links, and evidently some facts. I don't have the energy to argue with you. Nor will I. Your facts contradict what I am seeing. I took my shot. I believe their is an epidemic. I have seen what this flu can do, and the amount of resources and money it takes to save a life from contracting this flu. For instance, a roto prone bed, for a patient who develops complications directly related to the flu, with a cost of over $3,000/day, plus medications and care. This is not about money, it is about more than facts for something that is preventable at least lessened with a shot. Call the Sonoma County Health Department for information, not rely on a "thread" for information as important as an epidemic.

Clancy

11-11-2009, 12:51 PM

Thanks for your response, your post illustrates very clearly the problem.

You have the links, and evidently some facts. I don't have the energy to argue with you. Nor will I. Your facts contradict what I am seeing. I took my shot. I believe their is an epidemic. I have seen what this flu can do, and the amount of resources and money it takes to save a life from contracting this flu. For instance, a roto prone bed, for a patient who develops complications directly related to the flu, with a cost of over $3,000/day, plus medications and care. This is not about money, it is about more than facts for something that is preventable at least lessened with a shot. Call the Sonoma County Health Department for information, not rely on a "thread" for information as important as an epidemic.

Sylph

11-13-2009, 02:37 AM

The emphasis in allopathic medicine and the media is on the vector, the virus; feared as a terrorist out to slay the innocent victim. Personal responsibility for one's health, parental responsibility for supporting your children's health, these are the underlying issues associated with susceptibility. The positive actions that one can take toward balancing and supporting your immunity are minimalized or unspoken. <o:p> </o:p>
Actually, most articles I’ve read do emphasize hygiene, nutrition and adequate sleep…along with the vaccine, to stay healthy and not get the flu.
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

In actuality, very few people die directly from the viral illness; the majority of these deaths are secondary infections usually pneumonia. Underlying chronic disease is generally associated with these unfortunate individuals that succumb. <o:p> </o:p>
I agree that pneumonia is the common cause of death, after flu weakens the immune system. So, you don’t die of the virus...you still die! (or you are very ill, requiring IV antibiotics and supportive treatment in the hospital, good old “allopathic medicine”)
A hefty 30% of flu victims are “healthy” with no underlying health issues.
<o:p> </o:p>

However, with the fear and panic associated with H1N1 flu this year, the state has lifted the ban and is allowing vaccines containing these preservatives, thimerosal, squalene, formaldehyde, to be available for immunization of the masses. <o:p> </o:p>
The amount of mercury you get in a flu vaccine is extremely tiny compared to our daily environmental exposure. The multidose vaccine has to have a preservative. The nasal "live attenuated" vaccine has no thimerisol
https://www.ncirs.usyd.edu.au/facts/f-thiomersal.html
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=14

Squalene is not in American flu vaccines. It’s been in European vaccines with no negative effects. It’s not dangerous.https://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/
https://thefastertimes.com/clinicalupdate/2009/09/18/faqs-about-the-h1n1-vaccine/
Formaldehyde is found in our tissues…it’s natural.
https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/ucm187810.htm
<o:p> </o:p>

Common sense health habits to prevent infection make sense. Washing your hands regularly; eating nutritiously; getting adequate sleep, 7 hours +; getting regular outdoor exercise; balancing your life so that work (school), stress, and debt, do not overshadow home life, relaxation time, and loving relationships. As seasonal influenza and H1N1 are airborne viruses, saline nasal rinses and oral saline gargles can rinse away the virus from the portals of our bodies, inhibiting the virus if you do get exposed. <o:p> </o:p>
Good advice, for the most part.
However, if the virus gets into your cells and starts reproducing, no amount of rinsing will wash it away!

Clancy

11-14-2009, 11:28 PM

I'm always open to learning, do you have a link?

ALL the actual, factual information I can find says H1N1 is comparatively mild, and that the death rate is a fraction of average seasonal flu.

Of course I'll get one and so will my daughter. Clancy, you're wrong about this being "mild." It's killing more people by this point in the flu season than is usually the case and is now predicted to be the most dangerous flu in modern times here in the US. A lot of people are going to die.

This is a standard flu vaccine, nothing special or scary. There are no adjuvants, though that's really too bad since they do work.

To those suggesting they will "boost their immune systems," I have to ask: by doing what? Taking a lot of pills every day? How natural of you. Do they come from the organic pill tree? Think about it people. Taking a pile of pills every day isn't natural, but it is what Big Pharma wants you to do since the half a dozen largest pharmaceutical companies make nearly all the white powder drugs you find in your pills at the "health food" stores whether they say "natural" on them or not.

Vaccines are the natural way to boost your immune systems in a way tuned in exactly to the pathogen you want protection from. That's what vaccines do. Think about it. Learn about it. Just go to sources that can back up what they say and doubt anything you see on youtube. That's about the worst source for information out there.

Hope you all stay well.

-Jeff

Braggi

11-15-2009, 08:32 AM

Clancy

11-15-2009, 08:58 AM

An actual comparison to the average rate of flu deaths would help FAR more. It would actually tell us how H1N1 compares to the average. Don't you think it's odd that you don't see it plastered all over the media?

You made a specific claim: "It's killing more people by this point in the flu season than is usually the case"

I'm willing to change my mind, please show some evidence or consider changing yours.

Google helps: VOA News - Nearly 4,000 People Die From H1N1 in US (https://www.voanews.com/english/2009-11-15-voa2.cfm)

-Jeff

Braggi

11-15-2009, 09:05 AM

A comparison to the average rate of flu deaths would help FAR more. It would actually tell us how H1N1 compares to the average. Don't you think it's odd that you don't see it plastered all over the media?

It has been all over for the last week. It's not dangerous unless it goes for the lungs, opens the pathway to secondary infection, causes multiple organ failure and death. Then it's serious.

The people most susceptible to death are young healthy people, just like in 1918. A generally strong immune system is turned against the victim.

The real fear is the possibility that H1N1 will combine with H5N1, the avian flu, which would make a virus that spreads quickly and easily (H1N1) and has a 70% death rate (H5N1). That's why it's so important to limit the spread now.

-Jeff

Clancy

11-15-2009, 09:14 AM

There's lots of hype and fear mongering all over the media, but the only actual numbers I can find show that H1N1 is infecting and killing significantly less people than average seasonal flu.

Again, don't you think it's odd that you can't show me a comparison to the average rate of deaths?

It has been all over for the last week. It's not dangerous unless it goes for the lungs, opens the pathway to secondary infection, causes multiple organ failure and death. Then it's serious.

The people most susceptible to death are young healthy people, just like in 1918. A generally strong immune system is turned against the victim.

The real fear is the possibility that H1N1 will combine with H5N1, the avian flu, which would make a virus that spreads quickly and easily (H1N1) and has a 70% death rate (H5N1). That's why it's so important to limit the spread now.

-Jeff

alanora

11-15-2009, 10:00 AM

Braggi

11-15-2009, 10:21 AM

ItsaNewDawn

11-15-2009, 11:09 AM

Hello,
its interesting to note how our beliefs about something affect the outcome. those strongly pro-vaccine have strong beliefs about it. Each to his/her own, right? just that we need to be more informed about the choices!
Simply searching on you tube there are MANY videos about why NOT to take it. If you are so inclined to research as time permits.
My other fav site is consciousmedianetwork.com she has numerous posts under videos, describing more details.

YouTube - Mr. Siebel - Doctor says H1N1 vaccine is Dangerous (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHYZwiD_x9o)

YouTube - Mercola / Fisher Swine Flu Vaccine Q&A 1, 10-21-09 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWJ03p5dQpM)
Dr. Mercola

YouTube - Natural Ways to Boost Your Immune System (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PABI55bRn5I)
natural immune booster from Dr Mercola

YouTube - Makers Of Vaccine Refuse To Take H1N1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4SmFxyust0)
makers of it wont take it

YouTube - Swine flu / H1N1 - Lesson from the 1976 vaccine disaster (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm_PCN08Qq4)
1976 1st tempt at vaccinating

Blessings and Light, may we all see and find the Truth and yet feel not fear. with the truth, fear disappers... thats part of why I post and why I seek knowledge.

Clancy

11-15-2009, 11:17 AM

its interesting to note how our beliefs about something affect the outcome...

Yes, but that's often not a good thing.

When I was a psychology student, we learned about a major study that showed that when people have an emotional investment in a particular belief and they are shown scientific evidence that is contrary to their belief, not only does it not change their mind, it further entrenches them in their erroneous belief. AND, the greater the emotional investment, the greater the effect.

Intellectual integrity and actual open-mindedness are all too rare, but, like a sense of humor, almost everyone thinks they have it.

Braggi

11-15-2009, 12:30 PM

Hello,
its interesting to note how our beliefs about something affect the outcome. those strongly pro-vaccine have strong beliefs about it. Each to his/her own, right? just that we need to be more informed about the choices!
Simply searching on you tube there are MANY videos about why NOT to take ...

And posts like this is why I mentioned youtube is about the worst place to look for guidance. Mercola is a liar, a cheat and a criminal. He's been slapped on the wrists numerous times for selling his snake oil with lies. I think he should be rotting in prison for murder. His lies kill people.

It's not to each his own. Your failure to vaccinate your kid could kill my kid. That's beyond irresponsible, it's child abuse, and by extension, is manslaughter.

No, I'm not pulling punches, because this discussion has gotten too serious. The anti vaxers are beyond stupid, they're dangerous.

-Jeff

ItsaNewDawn

11-15-2009, 02:01 PM

whoa~ the whole point is CHOICE. We each have our Own choice!
Im sure there is something opposite for you that you would want to have the option/choice TO do something. For ex, you have the choice! to vaccinate since you so choose. Not all people are the same or react the same.
We are all here living together letting each other make their own choices. yet harm none.

And posts like this is why I mentioned youtube is about the worst place to look for guidance. Mercola is a liar, a cheat and a criminal. He's been slapped on the wrists numerous times for selling his snake oil with lies. I think he should be rotting in prison for murder. His lies kill people.

It's not to each his own. Your failure to vaccinate your kid could kill my kid. That's beyond irresponsible, it's child abuse, and by extension, is manslaughter.

No, I'm not pulling punches, because this discussion has gotten too serious. The anti vaxers are beyond stupid, they're dangerous.

-Jeff

Barry

11-15-2009, 02:29 PM

...
To those suggesting they will "boost their immune systems," I have to ask: by doing what? Taking a lot of pills every day? How natural of you. Do they come from the organic pill tree? Think about it people. Taking a pile of pills every day isn't natural, but it is what Big Pharma wants you to do since the half a dozen largest pharmaceutical companies make nearly all the white powder drugs you find in your pills at the "health food" stores whether they say "natural" on them or not.

Vaccines are the natural way to boost your immune systems in a way tuned in exactly to the pathogen you want protection from. That's what vaccines do. ...

These seem to be a whole bunch more natural than vaccines:

From: Antiobiotic Alternatives (https://www.shareguide.com/alternatives.html)

Grapefruit Seed Extract
A grapefruit bioflavonoid concentrate works well to help knock out a cold. Grapefruit seed extract is a product you can use if you feel an infection coming on. You can take one 100 mg tablet every four to five hours or a few drops of the liquid. There are also anecdotal reports from women that grapefruit seed extract will effectively cure urinary tract infections.

Echinacea
The herb echinacea, sometimes combined with goldenseal in formulas, is an effective immune stimulant, but works best when used early on in an infection. Some people are allergic to it, so if you take a dose and feel worse, stop taking it!

Olive Leaves
Olive leaves have been used medicinally for centuries to treat fever, malaria, colds, and fungal infections. Modern research shows that a bitter constituent of olive leaves called oleuropein has antibacterial, antiviral, and antiprotozoal effects. The best way to take olive leaf as a supplement is as an extract in capsule or liquid form.

Homeopathic Remedies
Oscillococcinum is a homeopathic remedy I recommend for preventing and relieving the symptoms of the flu. This is a great remedy to travel with and to keep in the medicine cabinet, as it can quickly knock out a flu.

Chinese Herbal Remedies
Yin Chiao is a Chinese herbal remedy that's good for preventing colds and flus. It can actually prevent a full-blown cold if taken soon enough.

EpiCor
EpiCor is a fermented yeast product that enhances natural killer cell activity and helps modulate and strengthen the immune system. It contains a unique blend of vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and antioxidants that research has shown to be very effective in warding off colds and flus. This is a supplement that can be taken daily during cold and flu season as a preventive.

Russian Choice Immune
This is a probiotic that originated as a fermented milk product in Eastern Europe. It supports the immune system and the gastrointestinal system.

Elderberries
American Indians have a long history of using Elderberries, primarily for the treatment of infections. Elderberries contain anti-inflammatory bioflavonoids that have been shown in test tube studies to inhibit viral growth. Specifically, elderberry flavonoids can stifle the activity of a protein needed by the flu virus to multiply and spread. It's no surprise that elderberry is especially effective against viral infections such as the flu and the common cold.

Vitamins
Take vitamin C to tolerance, and take vitamin A (10,000 to 15,000 IU a day) for up to two weeks.

Many people think that you can kill the germ with an antibiotic, and your infection problem is solved. For the past 50 years, this is how conventional medicine has been treating patients. But 98% of those infections would have become better with some very basic care, like rest and fluids. Antibiotics do nothing to get rid of a virus when you have a cold or the flu. Here are some thoughts about common infections.

Braggi

11-15-2009, 07:05 PM

These seem to be a whole bunch more natural than vaccines: ...

Barry, I love you and I love what you do for the Wacco community, but please, learn something about health care. The flu isn't caused by bacteria. None of those things on your list will help with the flu.

Please support your assertions with some science. Alternatives to antibiotics, and BTW, I can shoot holes in any argument that any of those things are actually alternatives to antibiotics, aren't going to help against the flu.

Let's talk about H1N1. Why wouldn't you vaccinate your child? ... or yourself?

-Jeff

Braggi

11-15-2009, 07:42 PM

These seem to be a whole bunch more natural than vaccines: ...

Barry, what stimulates immune systems is pathogens; not vitamins, not herbs, certainly not homeopathy which does nothing. The healthiest kids, in terms of resistance to diseases, allergies and asthma are kids raised on farms where mom never heard of Clorox. One of the main reasons breast feeding builds kids with strong immune systems is the exposure to pathogens on mom's skin as well as mom's antibodies contained within breast milk. Most of the people reading this will not go back to breast feeding, so I suggest the next best thing: vaccines. They are engineered to stimulate the immune system since they ARE exposure to pathogens; albeit pathogens that have been reduced in virulence by various means. In some cases the pathogens are not identical to the one the vaccine is designed to protect from, but in any case, vaccines encourage the immune system to mount a response that, hopefully, will also protect against the more dangerous pathogen, in this case the H1N1 flu virus. That's science Barry. All of my statements can be confirmed if the reader wishes to use google.

I repeat: none of the things you listed will reduce the spread or virulence of H1N1. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

-Jeff

PS. The best thing parents in cities can do to reduce the chance their offspring will have allergies or asthma is have both dogs and cats during the first year of life and avoid anti bacterial anything. That's what the research shows.

Braggi

11-15-2009, 08:14 PM

whoa~ the whole point is CHOICE. We each have our Own choice! ...

Well, it's about a lot more than choice. It's about a virulent flu virus running rampant around the globe and killing thousands of people. It's about a safe, effective vaccine now available (in some places) that will offer resistance to that virus should you become exposed to it. It's about the relationship of these things to the society we live in and the fact that if enough people get vaccinated we will improve the so called "herd immunity" and reduce the number of people exposed to this virus that's killing people.

The problem is that just one person getting vaccinated won't necessarily keep that person from getting harmed by the flu. If a whole lot fewer people are going about sharing their germs with others because those people got vaccinated, then fewer people will come down with the flu, even those who did not get vaccinated.

It is the people who make the choice to get vaccinated that are protecting the others. If enough get vaccinated we'll develop the herd immunity that means many fewer will become infected.

Those who don't get vaccinated make the choice that means they are more likely to infect others. That's how your choice effects me.

I'm very libertarian minded and wouldn't want the government to take the choice away from you.

Choose well.

-Jeff

quincydoc

11-16-2009, 10:09 AM

Thanks Braggi for holding on to the science-based position on the flu vaccines! To really find out what the H1N1 flu is capable of, read "The Great Influenza" by John Barry---meticulously documented, reads like a novel. Or "Flu" by Gina Kolata.. This virus was capable of killing people within 48-72 hours from acute respiratory collapse (not bacterial pneumonia). A few people have gotten this variety this year and in-hospital mortality is STILL over 20%. We've been lucky so far that the current virus hasn't taken that last mutation step. PS: it wasn't overdoses of aspirin that killed 50 million people in 1918..... it was "the flu".

For up to date info: cdc.gov/flu

Well, it's about a lot more than choice. It's about a virulent flu virus running rampant around the globe and killing thousands of people. It's about a safe, effective vaccine now available (in some places) that will offer resistance to that virus should you become exposed to it. It's about the relationship of these things to the society we live in and the fact that if enough people get vaccinated we will improve the so called "herd immunity" and reduce the number of people exposed to this virus that's killing people.

The problem is that just one person getting vaccinated won't necessarily keep that person from getting harmed by the flu. If a whole lot fewer people are going about sharing their germs with others because those people got vaccinated, then fewer people will come down with the flu, even those who did not get vaccinated.

It is the people who make the choice to get vaccinated that are protecting the others. If enough get vaccinated we'll develop the herd immunity that means many fewer will become infected.

Those who don't get vaccinated make the choice that means they are more likely to infect others. That's how your choice effects me.

I'm very libertarian minded and wouldn't want the government to take the choice away from you.

Choose well.

-Jeff

Clancy

11-16-2009, 10:20 AM

Science based? I don't think so. Science based would show us a comparison of H1N1 rate of infection and mortality compared to the average seasonal flu, which shows that H1N1 is comparatively mild.

Yes, any flu virus can mutate into a nightmare strain like the one that killed millions, but H1N1 has not, and is significantly less lethal than the average seasonal flu.

As I have said before, I'm open to changing my mind, please show me a link to a reputable, scientific comparison between H1N1 and the average seasonal flu.

Thanks Braggi for holding on to the science-based position on the flu vaccines! To really find out what the H1N1 flu is capable of, read "The Great Influenza" by John Barry---meticulously documented, reads like a novel. Or "Flu" by Gina Kolata.. This virus was capable of killing people within 48-72 hours from acute respiratory collapse (not bacterial pneumonia). A few people have gotten this variety this year and in-hospital mortality is STILL over 20%. We've been lucky so far that the current virus hasn't taken that last mutation step. PS: it wasn't overdoses of aspirin that killed 50 million people in 1918..... it was "the flu".

For up to date info: cdc.gov/flu

Braggi

11-16-2009, 10:32 AM

... As I have said before, I'm open to changing my mind, please show me a link to a reputable, scientific comparison between H1N1 and the average seasonal flu.

Damn, I did find an article that did just that and I thought I posted it. I'll have to find it again and post it later today. Yes, Clancy, this is already comparatively more deadly than the average "seasonal" flu based on the time of year.

-Jeff

Clancy

11-16-2009, 10:48 AM

Actually, the link you provided yesterday did not show anything of the kind.
VOA News - Nearly 4,000 People Die From H1N1 in US (https://www.voanews.com/english/2009-11-15-voa2.cfm)

And before you say that the 540 childhood deaths are a comparison, you should know that the CDC is counting any fatality where the strain in question is present, for the first time in their history. Normally, they only consider a fatality due to the flu virus if the patient dies of flu complications.

Damn, I did find an article that did just that and I thought I posted it. I'll have to find it again and post it later today. Yes, Clancy, this is already comparatively more deadly than the average "seasonal" flu based on the time of year.

-Jeff

ItsaNewDawn

11-16-2009, 11:03 AM

YouTube - Expert Pediatrician Discusses Vaccines (Part 8) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19yj12aSDuY)
the first two minutes addresses your concern. science based from doctors.

Well, it's about a lot more than choice. It's about a virulent flu virus running rampant around the globe and killing thousands of people. It's about a safe, effective vaccine now available (in some places) that will offer resistance to that virus should you become exposed to it. It's about the relationship of these things to the society we live in and the fact that if enough people get vaccinated we will improve the so called "herd immunity" and reduce the number of people exposed to this virus that's killing people.

The problem is that just one person getting vaccinated won't necessarily keep that person from getting harmed by the flu. If a whole lot fewer people are going about sharing their germs with others because those people got vaccinated, then fewer people will come down with the flu, even those who did not get vaccinated.

It is the people who make the choice to get vaccinated that are protecting the others. If enough get vaccinated we'll develop the herd immunity that means many fewer will become infected.

Those who don't get vaccinated make the choice that means they are more likely to infect others. That's how your choice effects me.

I'm very libertarian minded and wouldn't want the government to take the choice away from you.

Choose well.

-Jeff

Sylph

11-16-2009, 11:07 AM

[Swine flu: Eight myths that could endanger your life - New Scientist (https://www.newscientist.com/special/swine-flu-myths-that-could-endanger-your-life?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news)
The 36,000 figure comes from epidemiological studies. Because the timing of flu outbreaks varies from year to year, the normal number of deaths in any month can be compared with the number of deaths in the same month when there was a flu outbreak, says Lone Simonsen of George Washington University in Washington DC. Such studies reveal a bulge in deaths during and just after the flu season every year, mainly among the elderly. Many are clearly due to flu and other lung infections that can follow it, but more than half are not obviously connected, because flu often kills in indirect ways, by triggering heart attacks or strokes, for instance.
By contrast, the deaths attributed to swine flu are those directly caused by respiratory infection with the pandemic virus. Indirect deaths - the majority of the 36,000 figure for regular flu - are not being counted. The full death toll for 2009 H1N1 flu will not be known for a while, if ever. Perhaps there will be fewer deaths than normal because older people, more at risk from secondary events such as heart attacks, have some immunity to the virus. However, the total seems likely to be higher simply because the virus will infect far more people than normal, and it kills directly more often.
The impact of a pandemic is not simply about the number of deaths, though. This pandemic, like previous ones, is killing mainly young people, not the very elderly as flu normally does (see diagram). By early October, 76 children and adolescents in the US had already died of swine flu (see diagram). That is more than the usual winter toll, and the winter has just begun.

1. The H1N1 has hit earlier, more people infected equal more deaths
2. It kills more "directly" as opposed to by secondary infections
3. More children and young people have died with this flu. (more tragic, some would say, more years lost)

But, we won't have a good comparison, (if ever), until after the fact.
The odds are you won't die if you get it...But, if you or your child are one of the few, it would be a death that was preventable by the vaccine.

This year, I have many friends who have gotten the "swine" flu, and had a very rough week with it, bedridden and miserable, but they are OK, now. Given a choice, they would have taken the shot to avoid a week of hell!
If you aren't planning to get the shot, make sure you have someone who can take care of you (and your children) for a week. Hopefully, you are in a job with paid sick leave. Have plenty of food in the fridge, because you won't feel like going out, nor should you be out.
If you can't afford to be down and out for a week or more, get the vaccine!

Clancy

11-16-2009, 11:22 AM

We still don't have an actual comparison, which I find puzzling to say the least, because we have libraries of data to draw from. What I keep seeing are convoluted explanations why we don't see scientific comparisons.

If H1N1 mortality were higher than average, it would be an easy task to tease out specific, comparative markers from the mountains of flu data available.

[Swine flu: Eight myths that could endanger your life - New Scientist (https://www.newscientist.com/special/swine-flu-myths-that-could-endanger-your-life?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news)

1. The H1N1 has hit earlier, more people infected equal more deaths
2. It kills more "directly" as opposed to by secondary infections
3. More children and young people have died with this flu. (more tragic, some would say, more years lost)

But, we won't have a good comparison, (if ever), until after the fact.
The odds are you won't die if you get it...But, if you or your child are one of the few, it would be a death that was preventable by the vaccine.

This year, I have many friends who have gotten the "swine" flu, and had a very rough week with it, bedridden and miserable, but they are OK, now. Given a choice, they would have taken the shot to avoid a week of hell!
If you aren't planning to get the shot, make sure you have someone who can take care of you (and your children) for a week. Hopefully, you are in a job with paid sick leave. Have plenty of food in the fridge, because you won't feel like going out, nor should you be out.
If you can't afford to be down and out for a week or more, get the vaccine!

ItsaNewDawn

11-16-2009, 11:39 AM

YouTube - Expert Pediatrician Discusses Vaccines (Part 7) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAt6bOmx1ZI)

starting at 4min mark

Because, people could still be a carrier EVEN if they received the vaccine shot.
its not about us n them or class wars.

Please offer your ideas in a nice way, non-threatening and we can all learn to live together and agree to disagree.

Braggi

11-16-2009, 11:59 AM

Actually, the link you provided yesterday did not show anything of the kind. ...

No, and I didn't say it did. Sheesh.

Try this one: CDC Novel H1N1 Flu | CDC Estimates of 2009 H1N1 Influenza Cases, Hospitalizations and Deaths in the United States (https://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/estimates_2009_h1n1.htm)

-Jeff

Clancy

11-16-2009, 12:11 PM

There's no need to be peevish, why not just post the link you ARE referring to? That's the only one I saw in your history for yesterday.

As for the CDC link below, yes, I've been reading them avidly, and I am still perplexed at the convoluted ways they avoid comparing this particular strain (H1N1) to the hundreds of other strains they have meticulously studied.

No, and I didn't say it did. Sheesh.

Try this one: CDC Novel H1N1 Flu | CDC Estimates of 2009 H1N1 Influenza Cases, Hospitalizations and Deaths in the United States (https://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/estimates_2009_h1n1.htm)

-Jeff

Sylph

11-17-2009, 12:23 AM

According to the first expert in this article, Clancy is right, the death rate is probably about the same as “regular” flu, and fairly “mild in kids.” But, another expert in the same article thinks the death toll could be twice that of a normal flu season.
Swine flu death rate similar to seasonal flu-expert (https://www.canada.com/health/Swine+death+rate+similar+seasonal+expert/2001615/story.html)

BY MAGGIE FOX, REUTERS, SEPTEMBER 17, 2009

The death rate from the pandemic H1N1 swine flu is likely lower than earlier estimates, an expert in infectious diseases said on Wednesday.
New estimates suggest that the death rate compares to a moderate year of seasonal influenza, said Dr Marc Lipsitch of Harvard University.
"It’s mildest in kids. That’s one of the really good pieces of news in this pandemic," Lipsitch told a meeting of flu experts being held by the U.S. Institute of Medicine.
"Barring any changes in the virus, I think we can say we are in a category 1 pandemic. This has not become clear until fairly recently."
But another expert cautioned this does not mean the pandemic will not have severe effects on people and communities because it will infect more people than seasonal flu usually does in any given year.

"We are going to see probably twice as many people die from the flu as we do in a typical flu season. That is tens of thousands of people. And many of these people are going to be younger."
Seasonal flu is usually far worse among the elderly, who make up 90 percent of the deaths every year. In contrast, this flu is attacking younger adults and older children, but they are not dying of it at the same rate as the elderly do during seasonal influenza, Lipsitch said.

It’s not that easy to compare the mortality rates side by side (seasonal vs swine flu) This article, from Canada, tries to explain why. I don't think scientists are trying to use "convoluted reasoning", it's just something that is difficult to quantify and will take time:
A/H1N1 Swine Flu (Influenza) Timeline | November 15: H1N1’s true toll not shown by death tally (https://trancy.net/2009/11/15/november-15-h1n1s-true-toll-not-shown-by-death-tally/)

Are you confused by the H1N1 numbers? Wondering why public health officials are making such a fuss about a virus that has so far killed so few people?
You aren’t alone.
After all, we’re told seasonal flu kills between 4,000 to 8,000 Canadians and between 250,000 and 500,000 people worldwide each year. Yet as of late last week, seven months into this outbreak, H1N1 had killed 161 Canadians and an estimated 6,260 people around the globe.
Critics of Canada’s pandemic response point to the discrepancy between those sets of numbers and question the full court press.
But the thing is, as tempting as it is to compare those two sets of figures and conclude that H1N1 is much ado about nada, you can’t do it. Those two sets of numbers count different things, experts say.
…there can be considerable lag time between an outbreak and the attempts to quantify its impact. It takes time for vital statistics to be processed. Kwong says it may be 2011 or so before Canadian researchers can come up with a good estimate of what has happened this year with H1N1.

Read more: A/H1N1 Swine Flu (Influenza) Timeline | November 15: H1N1’s true toll not shown by death tally (https://trancy.net/2009/11/15/november-15-h1n1s-true-toll-not-shown-by-death-tally/#ixzz0X6OYUOSe)

Clancy

11-17-2009, 05:27 AM

...It’s not that easy to compare the mortality rates side by side (seasonal vs swine flu)...

It's all but impossible since the CDC inexplicably quit counting H1N1 infections last July.

(CBS) If you've been diagnosed "probable" or "presumed" 2009 H1N1 or "swine flu" in recent months, you may be surprised to know this: odds are you didn’t have H1N1 flu.

In fact, you probably didn’t have flu at all. That's according to state-by-state test results obtained in a three-month-long CBS News investigation.
-- CBS News, 10/21/09
https://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/21/cbsnews_investigates/main5404829.shtml

The CBS report goes on to point out that the CDC strangely advised states to stop testing and to stop counting the number of swine flu cases last July. The CDC website explains that states are no longer differentiating between the regular flu and the swine flu, lumping instead all influenza and pneumonia-related hospitalizations and deaths in one undifferentiated category.

...we asked all 50 states for their statistics on state lab-confirmed H1N1 prior to the halt of individual testing and counting in July. The results reveal a pattern that surprised a number of health care professionals we consulted. The vast majority of cases were negative for H1N1 as well as seasonal flu, despite the fact that many states were specifically testing patients deemed to be most likely to have H1N1 flu, based on symptoms and risk factors, such as travel to Mexico.

It’s unknown what patients who tested negative for flu were actually afflicted with since the illness was not otherwise determined. Health experts say it’s assumed the patients had some sort of cold or upper respiratory infection that is just not influenza.

With most cases diagnosed solely on symptoms and risk factors, the H1N1 flu epidemic may seem worse than it is.

...the CDC recommendation for those who had "probable" or "presumed" H1N1 flu to go ahead and get vaccinated anyway means the relatively small proportion of those who actually did have H1N1 flu will be getting the vaccine unnecessarily. This exposes them to rare but significant side effects, such as paralysis from Guillain-Barre syndrome.

The CDC did not response to questions from CBS News for this report.
https://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/21/cbsnews_investigates/main5404829.shtml

The numbers of swine flu cases thus appear to have been greatly exaggerated by as much as 50 times or more even before July. And as the CDC ordered states to stop counting in July, we have no way to make an accurate count now. Thus the numbers being used by the media and fed to people like President Obama have no reliable value and can be even further inflated, leading to even more fear and false claims of swine flu.

Swine flu cases: CDC swine flu deception (https://www.wanttoknow.info/health/swine_flu_cdc)

Clancy

11-17-2009, 06:35 AM

An associate of mine had the flu shot about a month ago and got Gullian barre syndrome and when last I heard was going to need a ventilator for support while the thing ran its course. He is totally paralyzed at this time, unable to breathe on his own. Coincidence? I do not know.

(CBS) Many are concerned about whether a H1N1 vaccine will be safe. But now reports are out that a swine flu vaccine could cause GBS or Guillian-Barre Syndrome, a brain disorder.

Ashton explained GBS is a rare, neurologic disorder that has elements of an auto-immune condition in that some trigger (usually an infection or rarely a vaccination against an infection) results in a progressive weakening of nerves. GBS starts in the legs and works its way up the body. Estimates are that it may occur one time out of 100,000 or one million vaccine doses. In most cases, Ashton said, patients recover approximately four weeks from the first symptoms, and 80 percent of people have a complete recovery. Some however, can die from GBS; the death rate is quoted as 2 to 3 people in 100.

Weighing Possible H1N1 Vaccine Risks - The Early Show - CBS News (https://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/17/earlyshow/health/main5246940.shtml?tag=featuredPostArea)

Braggi

11-17-2009, 07:04 AM

(CBS) ... But now reports are out that a swine flu vaccine could cause GBS or Guillian-Barre Syndrome, a brain disorder.
... Estimates are that it may occur one time out of 100,000 or one million vaccine doses. ...

How disappointing that CBS news could be so stupid. GBS occurs in about one in a hundred thousand that don't get the vaccine. So if research is showing that one in a million are now getting it, that means the vaccine is protective of GBS by a factor of one thousand times few cases in a million doses. We should all run to get the vaccine because of all the people who won't get GBS as a result.

Actually, it's just stupid reporting by reporters who don't check their facts. A simple google search could have shown them the facts.

-Jeff

Statistics by Country for Guillain-Barre Syndrome - WrongDiagnosis.com (https://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/g/guillain_barre_syndrome/stats-country.htm)

Braggi

11-17-2009, 07:28 AM

It's all but impossible since the CDC inexplicably quit counting H1N1 infections last July. ...

So tell me Clancy, what is the bottom line of the article you quote? I had trouble finding one. I agree it's inexplicable, but I can guess it's that the test for H1N1 is very expensive and scarce resources are better spent on prevention: aka, vaccination which is cheap, safe and effective.

They are testing people who have died, but that's a little like closing the barn door after the horses have run.

There is a bottom line to the CBS report, but you have to go to CBS to find it: "The ramifications of this finding are important. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and Britain's National Health Service, once you have H1N1 flu, you're immune from future outbreaks of the same virus. Those who think they've had H1N1 flu -- but haven't -- might mistakenly presume they're immune. As a result, they might skip taking a vaccine that could help them, and expose themselves to others with H1N1 flu under the mistaken belief they won't catch it. Parents might not keep sick children home from school, mistakenly believing they've already had H1N1 flu. "

So the bottom line from CBS is go out and get the vaccine EVEN IF you think you've already had H1N1, because you probably didn't.

-Jeff

Swine Flu Cases Overestimated? - CBS News (https://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/21/cbsnews_investigates/main5404829.shtml)

Clancy

11-17-2009, 09:28 AM

So tell me Clancy, what is the bottom line of the article you quote? I had trouble finding one.

Perhaps if you read it again... with ALL colds and upper respiratory infections being erroneously counted as H1N1 by the CDC, this relatively mild flu strain is blown out of proportion.

Swine Flu Cases Overestimated?

CBS) If you've been diagnosed "probable" or "presumed" 2009 H1N1 or "swine flu" in recent months, you may be surprised to know this: odds are you didn’t have H1N1 flu.

In fact, you probably didn’t have flu at all. That's according to state-by-state test results obtained in a three-month-long CBS News investigation.

https://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/21/cbsnews_investigates/main5404829.shtml

Sylph

11-17-2009, 11:48 AM

Science blog calls CBS story "misinformation"
Science Based Medicine blog calls CBS vaccine story "credulous, noncritical, misinformation" - Schwitzer health news blog (https://blog.lib.umn.edu/schwitz/healthnews/2009/10/science-based-m.html)
I know that the patients I have seen come in to the hospital are tested and are positive for H1N1.

See below for corrected links.

Clancy

11-17-2009, 11:59 AM

That is a story about hepatitis B vaccine used on 13 monkeys. Please delete your post, this has nothing to do with CBS's H1N1 piece and YOU are the one spreading misinformation.

Science blog calls CBS story "misinformation"
Science Based Medicine blog calls CBS vaccine story "credulous, noncritical, misinformation" - Schwitzer health news blog (https://blog.lib.umn.edu/schwitz/healthnews/2009/10/science-based-m.html)
I know that the patients I have seen come in to the hospital are tested and are positive for H1N1.
Apparently, CBS won't release it's 'studies'. Hmmm.

Braggi

11-17-2009, 12:24 PM

A lot of good sense, all in one place: Joe Schwarcz: An injection of H1N1 reason - Full Comment (https://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/11/17/joe-schwarcz-an-injection-of-h1n1-reason.aspx)

-Jeff

Braggi

11-17-2009, 01:01 PM

... 12 page essay with 2 pages of footnotes, written by my friend, byron, who co-authored a recent book on health and medicine with dr. len saputo. ...

Judith, love you too, but I pulled this from a (positive) review of this guy's most recent book: "Depending on the needs of his patients, Dr. Saputo wants to shift the priorities from disease management focused on drugs, expensive diagnostics and surgery, to health management, starting with prevention and health education, then the greater use of gentler alternatives like herbs, chiropractic, acupuncture and guided imagery, with drugs and surgery as options of last resort. "

The guy's a quack. Sorry, that's just what it is.

If you want, you can save some money and buy his previous book for $0.83 on Amazon, but I doubt it's worth it.

-Jeff

Jude Iam

11-17-2009, 01:16 PM

jeff, love you too, and yet it seems to me that, a few centuries ago, you would have been someone actively engaged in burning people who healed with herbs... and promulgating the 'official doctors', regardless of their ways and results.

for the record, i am completely aligned with what you quote, below:
"to shift the priorities from disease management focused on drugs, expensive diagnostics and surgery, to health management, starting with prevention and health education, then the greater use of gentler alternatives like herbs, chiropractic, acupuncture and guided imagery, with drugs and surgery as options of last resort" -
individually and collectively we shall be waaaaaaaaay better off the sooner this occurs.
health, happiness and abundance of goodness to all, judith

Judith, love you too, but I pulled this from a (positive) review of this guy's most recent book: "Depending on the needs of his patients, Dr. Saputo wants to shift the priorities from disease management focused on drugs, expensive diagnostics and surgery, to health management, starting with prevention and health education, then the greater use of gentler alternatives like herbs, chiropractic, acupuncture and guided imagery, with drugs and surgery as options of last resort. "

The guy's a quack. Sorry, that's just what it is.

If you want, you can save some money and buy his previous book for $0.83 on Amazon, but I doubt it's worth it.

-Jeff

Braggi

11-17-2009, 01:27 PM

jeff, love you too, and yet it seems to me that, a few centuries ago, you would have been someone actively engaged in burning people who healed with herbs... and promulgating the 'official doctors', regardless of their ways and results. ...

Yeah, you don't know me that well Judith, mores the shame. Actually, I'd be right up there on the bonfire with the best of them. Judith, I practice herbal healing. I practice shamanism. Difference is, I use herbs that work and I don't depend upon hokus pokus from hundreds or thousands of years ago that's PROVEN not to work.

Love to say more, but I gotta run. See you at the LBC, I hope.

-Jeff

someguy

11-17-2009, 02:46 PM

CHeck out these videos about H1N1 and how its getting really bad in the Ukraine. Some think that the swine flu may have mutated into something much worse causing black lungs and certain death.

YouTube - Ukraine black lungs: fears unknown flu strain to spread (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR1SwUK5MHk&feature=sub) (very reputable)

H1N1 Mutation Fears in Ukraine: Victim’s Lungs “Black as Charcoal”, Reminiscent of Spanish Flu | DBKP - Death By 1000 Papercuts - DBKP (https://deathby1000papercuts.com/2009/11/h1n1-mutation-fears-in-ukraine-victims-lungs-black-as-charcoal-reminiscent-of-spanish-flu/)

YouTube - Ukraine OUTBREAK actually Baxter Pharma BIOWEAPON?? HERE'S THE EVIDENCE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWIzHOikETc&feature=related) (only the first minute is relevant, the rest is weird.)

So I wonder now if the H1N1 is mutating or not. I also wonder if the current vaccine will protect us as promoted.

someguy

11-17-2009, 03:41 PM

Sylph

11-17-2009, 10:30 PM

I posted the wrong link in response to the CBS article. Sorry!
Here is some criticism of the "study" by the CBS journalist:
CBS News on swine flu testing: Fail! : Effect Measure (https://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/2009/10/cbs_news_on_swine_flu_testing.php)

CBS's own investigation found that in all 50 states, prior to stopping testing in July, lab-confirmed cases showed that most specimens were not influenza. As I noted, since other viruses cause ILI during non-flu season this isn't too surprising. What was surprising was the amount of influenza there was at a time when we expect to see very little. Now that flu season is here, the chances that an ILI is truly influenza (causally defined) is much greater. And frankly, there is no possibility of testing all ILI cases for swine flu. There will be millions of cases of ILI and they can't all be tested and most won't even be seen by anyone. Moreover, during the period of the CBS "study" many people were having specimens taken that would not ordinarily have seen a doctor. The data they looked at were from all 50 states (and we don't know what data it was or what they counted or whether they even calculated things correctly) and were mostly cases that were not epidemiologically linked.
This last is important. CBS News cites an outbreak of 250 cases at Georgetown University as an example where no testing was done so it isn't certain this was a flu outbreak. Admittedly, it could have been adenovirus or respiratory syncytial virus or a bunch of other things. But when something like this happens in the setting of a pandemic, the odds are that it was influenza. More importantly, data on the number of positive specimens for all the people of Georgia over a several month period three months prior is not the same as 250 cases among students who were in contact with each other and that occurred over a few weeks. And think about the alternative? Nothing prevented Georgetown University from testing all those cases. Nothing except that it would have been infeasible and the resources weren't available, that's all.
Comment after CBS story…addressed to the CBS journalist, regarding the piece being very misleading and twisting the facts:

First, those data were available in July, which means they were collected for months before. The point that is relevant, that was not made, was that H1N1 was showing up in a relatively large number of test to begin with. The fact that you are making this "report" based on months-old information (dated the 21st of October, from data made available in July, are you kidding me?!?!) has totally misled the public into thinking there is no pandemic or that H1N1 is not the dominant strain...this is in no way true.

Second, big surprise! Most people claiming to have the flu really don't have influenza. People call everything the flu and do not know how to properly differentiate it. It happens all the time, people say they have the flu, when they really don't.

Third, are you insinuating you've made some special epidemiological discovery about the prevalence of H1N1 influenza that the the world's public health infrastructure doesn't know? You used their data, and derived a different conclusion. Judging by these comments and the blogosphere, you've accomplished just that. If you are really interested in honest journalism, you need to rectify this.

Finally, in accordance with your typical anti-vaccine baloney, here is another gem of yours:

"However, the CDC recommendation for those who had "probable" or "presumed" H1N1 flu to go ahead and get vaccinated anyway means the relatively small proportion of those who actually did have H1N1 flu will be getting the vaccine unnecessarily. This exposes them to rare but significant side effects, such as paralysis from Guillain-Barre syndrome."

If they don't get GB from the virus, they are not going to get it from a vaccine. Nearly all cases of GB are from an infection. Very few are a result of immunization. It is very likely that if this small group can develop GB from a vaccine, they are as sure as heck going to get it from the wild-type virus! In reality, even if they are disposed to GB from a vaccine, they would likely fair far, far better from a vaccine-induced cases than following infection. But, the hysteria doesn't play well in light of those facts, does it.

You've (once again) provided a disservice to our community by propagating misleading information.

Sylph

11-17-2009, 11:07 PM

phooph

11-18-2009, 01:12 AM

More on this: Deadly flu spreads across Ukraine | zero hedge (https://www.zerohedge.com/article/deadly-flu-spreads-across-ukraine)

CHeck out these videos about H1N1 and how its getting really bad in the Ukraine. Some think that the swine flu may have mutated into something much worse causing black lungs and certain death.

YouTube - Ukraine black lungs: fears unknown flu strain to spread (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR1SwUK5MHk&feature=sub) (very reputable)

H1N1 Mutation Fears in Ukraine: Victim’s Lungs “Black as Charcoal”, Reminiscent of Spanish Flu | DBKP - Death By 1000 Papercuts - DBKP (https://deathby1000papercuts.com/2009/11/h1n1-mutation-fears-in-ukraine-victims-lungs-black-as-charcoal-reminiscent-of-spanish-flu/)

YouTube - Ukraine OUTBREAK actually Baxter Pharma BIOWEAPON?? HERE'S THE EVIDENCE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWIzHOikETc&feature=related) (only the first minute is relevant, the rest is weird.)

So I wonder now if the H1N1 is mutating or not. I also wonder if the current vaccine will protect us as promoted.

Braggi

11-18-2009, 07:08 AM

More on this: ...

There doesn't seem to be a single article on this from any credible source. The Ukraine government isn't releasing the results of any studies, just occasional press releases that aren't being picked up by the international press, because the credibility is being questioned.

It appears the Ukraine government is in danger of falling and they are using H1N1 as a political tool to ban mass gatherings and cancel the upcoming elections.

The only official response is that the World Health Organization has declared more Tamiflu needs to be sent to Ukraine, which is kind of stupid, because the current flu drugs don't seem to do much of anything to save lives. The efficacy of the two main flu antivirals is in question. At best they reduce the duration by a day or two. That's not very effective in my mind especially given their cost.

The world is awaiting real news on this topic and has been waiting for weeks. No real news is forthcoming, so we continue to wait.

It appears this story is a fabrication. If anyone finds something on this from a reputable source, please post. Google News brings up only opinion pieces and press releases from minor sources that have little or no detail except declarations from politicians.

-Jeff

someguy

11-18-2009, 08:17 AM

There doesn't seem to be a single article on this from any credible source. The Ukraine government isn't releasing the results of any studies, just occasional press releases that aren't being picked up by the international press, because the credibility is being questioned.

It appears the Ukraine government is in danger of falling and they are using H1N1 as a political tool to ban mass gatherings and cancel the upcoming elections.

The only official response is that the World Health Organization has declared more Tamiflu needs to be sent to Ukraine, which is kind of stupid, because the current flu drugs don't seem to do much of anything to save lives. The efficacy of the two main flu antivirals is in question. At best they reduce the duration by a day or two. That's not very effective in my mind especially given their cost.

The world is awaiting real news on this topic and has been waiting for weeks. No real news is forthcoming, so we continue to wait.

It appears this story is a fabrication. If anyone finds something on this from a reputable source, please post. Google News brings up only opinion pieces and press releases from minor sources that have little or no detail except declarations from politicians.

-Jeff
Bro, Russia Today is a great source of information, and is in fact the first link I provided for you.

Braggi

11-18-2009, 08:49 AM

Bro, Russia Today is a great source of information, and is in fact the first link I provided for you.

The link gives me an error message that says: This video is private. Hmmm.

-Jeff

someguy

11-18-2009, 08:52 AM

The link gives me an error message that says: This video is private. Hmmm.

-Jeff

That's weird. Sorry. But just go here and Russia Today has another video about it. YouTube - RussiaToday's Channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/RussiaToday)

Braggi

11-18-2009, 08:53 AM

The link gives me an error message that says: This video is private. Hmmm.

-Jeff

Russia Today's site says they're waiting for studies from British labs and there's no information coming out of those labs.

We're still waiting.

-Jeff

someguy

11-18-2009, 09:08 AM

Russia Today's site says they're waiting for studies from British labs and there's no information coming out of those labs.

We're still waiting.

-Jeff

Bueno.

YusufE

11-19-2009, 08:30 AM

Jeff
It appears that you want to monopolize this discussion.
You are entitled to your opinion.

As to your statement 'homeopathy does nothing'; besides the thousands of personal stories that utilizers of homeopathy will freely share of the impact a well chosen remedy had on their health problem, there is 'evidence' which meets the allopathic research criteria. Here is a snapshot from a recent article.
'An open mind is a healthy mind.'

<table width="96%" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="2"><tbody><tr><td align="center" height="100">
Clinical Research Evidence in Homeopathy - Present and Future
-- Robert T Mathie, PhD
Research Development Adviser, British Homeopathic Association
</td> <td width="20%" align="center">https://www.hpathy.com/imagespeople/Robert-Mathie.jpg</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2">
The total volume of clinical research in homeopathy is minuscule compared with that in conventional medicine; it attracts polarised interpretation by homeopathy’s advocates and detractors. The aim of this brief article is to clarify some essential facts and to recommend a number of avenues of future research development.
Summary of the clinical research evidence
There is a distinct body of research supporting the view that homeopathy can have effects greater than placebo, or be at least as effective as a standard treatment. In peer-reviewed journal papers published to the end of 2008, findings in 60 (43.5%) of 138 randomised controlled trials (RCTs) have been positive.[1] (https://www.hpathy.com/research/mathie-Clinical-Research-Evidence-in-Homeopathy.asp#_edn1) Most of the remaining peer-reviewed literature has reported statistically non-significant (and therefore usually non-conclusive) results; few papers have reported clearly negative findings.
Consistent with the small number of clinical trials in total, the evidence for or against homeopathy in most medical conditions is fragmentary. However, there is a majority of replicated RCT evidence, with support in most cases from systematic reviews, that classical (individualised) homeopathy has statistically significant effects in childhood diarrhoea[2] (https://www.hpathy.com/research/mathie-Clinical-Research-Evidence-in-Homeopathy.asp#_edn2) and fibromyalgia,[3] (https://www.hpathy.com/research/mathie-Clinical-Research-Evidence-in-Homeopathy.asp#_edn3)<sup>, [4] (https://www.hpathy.com/research/mathie-Clinical-Research-Evidence-in-Homeopathy.asp#_edn4), [5] (https://www.hpathy.com/research/mathie-Clinical-Research-Evidence-in-Homeopathy.asp#_edn5)</sup> and that specific medicines (standardised homeopathic treatment) can have statistically significant effects in influenza,[6] (https://www.hpathy.com/research/mathie-Clinical-Research-Evidence-in-Homeopathy.asp#_edn6) seasonal allergic rhinitis,[7] (https://www.hpathy.com/research/mathie-Clinical-Research-Evidence-in-Homeopathy.asp#_edn7)<sup>, [8] (https://www.hpathy.com/research/mathie-Clinical-Research-Evidence-in-Homeopathy.asp#_edn8)</sup> sinusitis[9] (https://www.hpathy.com/research/mathie-Clinical-Research-Evidence-in-Homeopathy.asp#_edn9)<sup>, [10] (https://www.hpathy.com/research/mathie-Clinical-Research-Evidence-in-Homeopathy.asp#_edn10), [11] (https://www.hpathy.com/research/mathie-Clinical-Research-Evidence-in-Homeopathy.asp#_edn11)</sup> and vertigo.[12] (https://www.hpathy.com/research/mathie-Clinical-Research-Evidence-in-Homeopathy.asp#_edn12) In many cases, the body of evidence in a given medical condition has been the work of a single research group (childhood diarrhoea, J Jacobs; seasonal allergic rhinitis, D Reilly) or is based on one specific homeopathic medicine (influenza, Oscillococcinum®; seasonal allergic rhinitis, Galphimia glauca; vertigo,Vertigoheel®). Corroboration of positive findings by independent research groups is crucial.

YQE

</td></tr></tbody></table>

phooph

11-19-2009, 08:42 AM

Some clumsy translation in the following video of the Polish Minister of Health.

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UPDATE: Polish Health Minister, a family doctor, tells Parliament she will not allow use of untested swine flu jabs: reveals secret contracts violate the law (https://www.theflucase.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1618%3Aupdate-polish-health-minister-a-family-doctor-tells-parliament-she-will-not-allow-use-of-untested-swine-flu-jabs-reveals-secret-contracts-violate-the-law&catid=41%3Ahighlig)

Swine flu skepticism demands deft response | Reuters.com (https://www.reuters.com/articlePrint?articleId=USTRE5A52FU20091112)

Who is Catholic nun, Sr. Teresa Forcades and what does she say about H1N1? Human Rights info101 (https://www.examiner.com/x-10438-Human-Rights-Examiner~y2009m11d3-Who-is-Catholic-nun-Sr-Teresa-Forcades-and-what-does-she-say-about-H1N1-Human-Rights-info101?cid=exrss-Human-Rights-Examiner)

Excerpt of interview with Forcades:

“… Anyone can verify that the information I’m going to disclose is accurate and objective.

… At the end of January 2009, before this new flu was discovered, Baxter Pharmaceuticals, a US company with a very important subsidiary company in Austria, distributed vaccination material for the [seasonal] flu, from the Austrian subsidiary via neighboring European countries – the Czech Republic, Slovenia and Germany – to 16 different laboratories.
[This was] material for the vaccine to be administered between February and March to the population of those countries for the seasonal flu.

This material weighed 72 kg. Well, I haven’t calculated the exact number of doses but it certainly means thousands and thousands of doses. So this was distributed, and (there) comes a point, when through one of those life coincidences, situations or plans are revealed that otherwise would have remained in the dark.

The Czech company Bio Test was one of the recipients of this material. One of their lab technicians decided -- through his own initiative and as something he was qualified to do but not obliged -- to carry out an extra security test with the vaccination material that they received, before proceeding with its distribution.

… He inoculated this vaccine into animals called in Spanish "comadrejas" or "hurones" – weasels or ferrets, small mammals that have been used since 1918 to test flu vaccines. He inoculated these weasels, and all of them died.
When he observed these unexpected deaths, and given that the inoculated vaccine shouldn’t have caused the death of the weasels, he immediately sounded the alarm and they began checks to establish what this material received from Baxter contained.

… The results of the analysis showed that in the material delivered by Baxter to those 106 laboratories, two live viruses coexisted.

One was the bird flu virus – the bird flu virus is the virus that appeared in 2005, and that caused a high mortality rate but infected just a few people. The number of deaths worldwide, and I quote by heart, was around 250 but as far as we know, around 60% of those infected died. This means that if 250 died worldwide just around 600 got infected, whichever the exact number is, the mortality rate of this virus is very high, but its infection rate is minimal.

This virus was mixed with a seasonal flu virus that, as we all know, has an extremely low mortality rate; lower than, 0.01%, lower than 1% of mortality at any rate, but with a high degree of transmission. Well, it’s highly contagious, with a high infection rate.

If you mix these two viruses and then distribute it to thousands of people, what you’re doing is you’re maximizing the probabilities for these two viruses to merge; for them to recombine, and for a new virus to appear to be both very lethal and very infectious.

This is a fact and this has been admitted by Baxter. They haven’t said “No, this is not true. This is just what by Jane Burgermeister says, or whoever, but this material wasn’t there.”

… They have admitted that the contamination took place but not that the material was designed for human use. Claiming protection behind the confidentiality rights, they haven’t disclosed information about its destination, and that the total 72 kg of the material contained a mix of live bird flu and seasonal flu viruses.

This is a fact. Could this have happened by chance?
The first thing that must be said is that it is extremely unlikely.
And I say this simply because in science the word “impossible” is something we never say. What does extremely unlikely mean? It means that laboratories handling this kind of viruses have Bio Security Levels in place. The Bio Security Level 3 is the highest, and the one that must be applied to this laboratory.

It means that if we talk in a scientific context about probability, based on known facts, the probability that this may have happened by chance is extremely low. Not only this, how can we explain the mixing of two different live viruses?
Additionally, the flu vaccines, as we all know, are vaccines made with attenuated viruses. This means that it’s perfectly normal for the flu vaccine to contain live virus; this is not an exception. But attenuated means that the virus must go through a radiation procedure. These viruses found in the Czech Republic in the whole Baxter material had not been attenuated. Therefore the odds of it happening by chance, well…

That’s why I say that, scientifically, or simply from a humanly prudent standpoint, we can’t say that it’s 100% impossible but, let’s be clear – it’s important to let it be known how unlikely it is for an accident to occur under these circumstances.

… I know that there are people who have been studying this for a while but I would wish that my message reaches someone who says, “Look I don’t know anything about that stuff, but I’ve just heard that there was a laboratory that delivered a contaminated vaccine and that, interestingly, is one of the laboratories in charge of making flu vaccines this year.”
Well, this fact alone makes it justifiable to myself to think that, until such time that an explanation is given about why this contamination took place, I won’t wish it on me, on my child, nor on anyone close to me. “

Braggi

11-19-2009, 09:12 AM

Jeff
It appears that you want to monopolize this discussion.
You are entitled to your opinion. ...

YusufE,

You are as well. Thing is, I can back up what I'm saying and you are welcome to do the research yourself. It's easy to find if you keep an open mind and actually read for the facts as opposed to fear based opinion.

Your post implies that I should respond, yet that I'm monopolizing, so, I supposed I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. It's a position I'm used to.

...
There is a distinct body of research supporting the view that homeopathy can have effects greater than placebo, or be at least as effective as a standard treatment.
...

Actually, there isn't. This just isn't true. And I have to ask, wouldn't you want treatments that are •significantly• better than placebo? ... if you're paying money for it? There are good reasons the British system has stopped paying charlatans and frauds (homeopaths and chirocpractors and "naturopaths"). Their treatments are based on nonsense and they DON'T WORK.

It's also worth noting that homeopaths aren't willing to put up the money to make the studies happen but they will complain that when universities and medical institutions do studies proving that homeopathy doesn't work. Another one of those "damned if" things.

...
Most of the remaining peer-reviewed literature has reported statistically non-significant (and therefore usually non-conclusive) results; few papers have reported clearly negative findings.
...

Now this is the truth. The studies show it doesn't work. There is a good reason for that: the whole theory of operation in homeopathy is nonsense. Distilled water shaken in the presence of some substance isn't going to cure anything, even if it's done by naked virgins under a full moon. Sorry, the theory of homeopathy is garbage. People who pay money for it are being ripped off and that's a fact.

Gotta run, thanks for sharing.

-Jeff

Clancy

11-19-2009, 12:23 PM

At the end of January 2009, Baxter Pharmaceuticals distributed vaccination material for the [seasonal] flu to 16 countries...

The results of the analysis showed that in the material delivered by Baxter to those 106 laboratories, two live viruses coexisted...

One was the bird flu virus – the bird flu virus is the virus that appeared in 2005, and that caused a high mortality rate but infected just a few people...

This virus was mixed with a seasonal flu virus that, as we all know, has an extremely low mortality rate, but it’s highly contagious, with a high infection rate...

If you mix these two viruses and then distribute it to thousands of people, what you’re doing is you’re maximizing the probabilities for these two viruses to merge; for them to recombine, and for a new virus to appear that is both very lethal and very infectious...

If true - and Baxter appears to have admitted it, this means Baxter either intentionally or accidentally contaminated flu vaccine with LIVE bird flu virus. I can't decide which is more appalling.

By sheer luck it was discovered before being used on thousands of people in 16 different countries.

Baxter holds the patent on the H1N1 vaccine and has produced hundreds of millions of doses worth billions of dollars.

Baxter was granted total legal immunity from any lawsuits that result from their H1N1 vaccine by the US Dept of Health and Human Services.

Jude Iam

11-19-2009, 12:59 PM

right.
investigative reporting uncovers 'accidental' to be far outweighed by 'intentional' - the pattern is very apparent, in this and many cases.
welcome to the underbelly of corporate business; pesticides, sweat shops, drugs, vaccines, arms, prisons, banking ... profit, at the expense of everything else, is what they have in common. the big picture usually dismissed as conspiracy theory; could be viewed as human nature, capitalism, whatever- running the world now.
shine your light bright, judith

If true - and Baxter appears to have admitted it, this means Baxter either intentionally or accidentally contaminated flu vaccine with LIVE bird flu virus. I can't decide which is more appalling.

By sheer luck it was discovered before being used on thousands of people in 16 different countries.

Baxter holds the patent on the H1N1 vaccine and has produced hundreds of millions of doses worth billions of dollars.

Baxter was granted total legal immunity from any lawsuits that result from their H1N1 vaccine by the US Dept of Health and Human Services.

Braggi

11-19-2009, 01:03 PM

right.
investigative reporting uncovers 'accidental' to be far outweighed by 'intentional' ...

Except I can't find a single article from a credible source that this ever happened. It seems the source for this story is Alex Jones Prison Planet. I'm sorry Alex feels imprisoned here, but I'm more than willing to donate to freeing him and sending him elsewhere.

Please, somebody find me a link to an actual credible source for this story. I'm tired of reading the dozens of dead ends that always lead back to Jones.

-Jeff

Clancy

11-19-2009, 01:10 PM

Clancy

11-19-2009, 01:37 PM

Except I can't find a single article from a credible source that this ever happened...

But the Polish Health Minister's statement to Parliament did happen, let's not overlook that...
UPDATE: Polish Health Minister, a family doctor, tells Parliament she will not allow use of untested swine flu jabs: reveals secret contracts violate the law (https://www.theflucase.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1618%3Aupdate-polish-health-minister-a-family-doctor-tells-parliament-she-will-not-allow-use-of-untested-swine-flu-jabs-reveals-secret-contracts-violate-the-law&catid=41%3Ahighlig)

Braggi

11-19-2009, 01:43 PM

I'm a skeptic too, so I'll look. In the meantime, here's another horrific story about Baxter, maker of the H1N1 vaccine you just took. ...

Well, I haven't taken the vaccine, but I'm willing to when it becomes available to me. Clancy, the "source" material listed at the end of the article is a bunch of opinion from quacks and non authority people. Where is the real evidence for any of this? How about some credible sources? The MSNBC video has been removed, not that I consider them a credible source.

I actually don't doubt the truth that there were HIV tainted blood products; that sounds reasonable for the time since there was no HIV test readily available. I do wonder about the companies continuing to distribute them after they proved tainted. I see no credible source for that.

Surely there is back up documentation for all this. Links?

-Jeff

Clancy

11-19-2009, 01:54 PM

Watching you call everyone you disagree with a 'quack' is getting tedious. Is the Health Minister of Poland a quack too? Where do you get the authority to call MDs and Ph.Ds quacks? Aren't you a handyman or something?

The Bayer/Baxter HIV/AIDs scandal was major news, I'm surprised you don't remember it.
Contaminated haemophilia blood products - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_haemophilia_blood_products)

Here's MSNBC's clip;
YouTube - BAYER AND BAXTER KNOWINGLY INFECTED HEMOPHILIAC PATIENTS WITH HIV/AIDS TAINTED VACCINE!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnNvr9pkOIA)

Well, I haven't taken the vaccine, but I'm willing to when it becomes available to me. Clancy, the "source" material listed at the end of the article is a bunch of opinion from quacks and non authority people. Where is the real evidence for any of this? How about some credible sources? The MSNBC video has been removed, not that I consider them a credible source.

I actually don't doubt the truth that there were HIV tainted blood products; that sounds reasonable for the time since there was no HIV test readily available. I do wonder about the companies continuing to distribute them after they proved tainted. I see no credible source for that.

Surely there is back up documentation for all this. Links?

-Jeff

Clancy

11-19-2009, 02:02 PM

Except I can't find a single article from a credible source that this ever happened. It seems the source for this story is Alex Jones Prison Planet. I'm sorry Alex feels imprisoned here, but I'm more than willing to donate to freeing him and sending him elsewhere.

Please, somebody find me a link to an actual credible source for this story. I'm tired of reading the dozens of dead ends that always lead back to Jones.

-Jeff

Baxter: Product contained live bird flu virus
By HELEN BRANSWELL, THE CANADIAN PRESS
https://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/27/8560781.html
The company that released contaminated flu virus material from a plant in Austria confirmed Friday that the experimental product contained live H5N1 avian flu viruses.

And an official of the World Health Organization’s European operation said the body is closely monitoring the investigation into the events that took place at Baxter International’s research facility in Orth-Donau, Austria.

“At this juncture we are confident in saying that public health and occupational risk is minimal at present,” medical officer Roberta Andraghetti said from Copenhagen, Denmark.

“But what remains unanswered are the circumstances surrounding the incident in the Baxter facility in Orth-Donau.”

The contaminated product, a mix of H3N2 seasonal flu viruses and unlabelled H5N1 viruses, was supplied to an Austrian research company. The Austrian firm, Avir Green Hills Biotechnology, then sent portions of it to sub-contractors in the Czech Republic, Slovenia and Germany.

The contamination incident, which is being investigated by the four European countries, came to light when the subcontractor in the Czech Republic inoculated ferrets with the product and they died. Ferrets shouldn’t die from exposure to human H3N2 flu viruses.

Public health authorities concerned about what has been described as a “serious error” on Baxter’s part have assumed the death of the ferrets meant the H5N1 virus in the product was live. But the company, Baxter International Inc., has been parsimonious about the amount of information it has released about the event.

On Friday, the company’s director of global bioscience communications confirmed what scientists have suspected.

“It was live,” Christopher Bona said in an email.

The contaminated product, which Baxter calls “experimental virus material,” was made at the Orth-Donau research facility. Baxter makes its flu vaccine — including a human H5N1 vaccine for which a licence is expected shortly — at a facility in the Czech Republic.

People familiar with biosecurity rules are dismayed by evidence that human H3N2 and avian H5N1 viruses somehow co-mingled in the Orth-Donau facility. That is a dangerous practice that should not be allowed to happen, a number of experts insisted.

Accidental release of a mixture of live H5N1 and H3N2 viruses could have resulted in dire consequences.

While H5N1 doesn’t easily infect people, H3N2 viruses do. If someone exposed to a mixture of the two had been simultaneously infected with both strains, he or she could have served as an incubator for a hybrid virus able to transmit easily to and among people.

That mixing process, called reassortment, is one of two ways pandemic viruses are created.

There is no suggestion that happened because of this accident, however.

“We have no evidence of any reassortment, that any reassortment may have occurred,” said Andraghetti.

“And we have no evidence of any increased transmissibility of the viruses that were involved in the experiment with the ferrets in the Czech Republic.”

Baxter hasn’t shed much light — at least not publicly — on how the accident happened. Earlier this week Bona called the mistake the result of a combination of “just the process itself, (and) technical and human error in this procedure.”

He said he couldn’t reveal more information because it would give away proprietary information about Baxter’s production process.

Andraghetti said Friday the four investigating governments are co-operating closely with the WHO and the European Centre for Disease Control in Stockholm, Sweden.

“We are in very close contact with Austrian authorities to understand what the circumstances of the incident in their laboratory were,” she said.

“And the reason for us wishing to know what has happened is to prevent similar events in the future and to share lessons that can be learned from this event with others to prevent similar events. ... This is very important.”

Baxter: Product contained live bird flu virus | Canada | News | Toronto Sun (https://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/27/8560781.html)

Barry

11-19-2009, 04:19 PM

...
It's not to each his own. Your failure to vaccinate your kid could kill my kid. That's beyond irresponsible, it's child abuse, and by extension, is manslaughter.

No, I'm not pulling punches, because this discussion has gotten too serious. The anti vaxers are beyond stupid, they're dangerous.

-Jeff
So your saying that your daughter could still get the flu even though she is vaccinated. So then it sounds like you don't have much faith in the efficacy of the vaccination.:hmmm:

Braggi

11-19-2009, 08:37 PM

Watching you call everyone you disagree with a 'quack' is getting tedious. ...

Well that's an erroneous assumption, but that's OK. At the end of that article there are a long list of quotes and sorry, but they're from a bunch of quacks. I had scrolled beneath the articles from credible sources, and there are several listed. I apologize for that oversight. But the overall credibility of the article is certainly put into question because of the long list of nutty quotes. They didn't do a thing to support the points of the article.

If the company knowingly sent out tainted products, and it looks like they did, everyone in the know should be prosecuted and the company should be at risk of losing its corporate charter. I think it's total bull that corporations can commit horrible crimes and continue to exist, especially if no human (such as, the CEO or board of directors) winds up in prison.

-Jeff

handy

11-21-2009, 02:06 PM

Interesting chart. A little perspective.
Shows worldwide deaths for the first 300 days of 2009.
You may need to blow it up some to see the detail.
Flu deaths are the vanishingly thin red line just right of center.

peacetree

01-25-2012, 10:07 AM

I am a nurse, and have worked my entire career in a large public hospital with patients from all over the world. Perhaps I have been lucky, who knows? Regardless, I have NEVER had the flu vaccine, offered and strongly encouraged every year for free for all employees of the hospital ( SF General Hospital). I lived and worked in the Mission district of SF for 23 years, all of that time, a fairly crowded area of SF. I was unique among my coworkers , as I never got the flu, and never got the vaccine.I was instead the person who worked extra hours to replace those vaccinated who got so sick with the flu. I was very concerned about the vaccines, as each year it was reconfigured,supposedly to deal with the latest flu version, and therefore no significant longterm testing was ever possible.They make up batches of stuff that is supposed to target their best guess of which viral mix will take off when the temperature drops ( Ideal flu virus spreading temperature) I was ever mindful of the swine flu vaccine which so severely affected so many folks adversely many years back ( I am sure there is ample evidence available on the internet folks can look up about that fiasco.) I did have a friend who had some lifelong residual weakness in her legs from that vaccine for which she needs a cane and sometimes a wheelchair .

I am far from anti-vaccine for all issues. I was the typical 50s child with polio, small pox vaccines ( and I think whooping cough, diptheria and tetnus all as one vaccine, though I don't remember that one for sure.) I am certain my brothers and I were all given every polio vaccine available immediately, and were always in the first to get them in our area ( we had a gramma who had had polio in her 30's and was very affected by it, so our family was hyper on that particular issue. In fact, the family practice doctors we saw always called my mom to let her know as soon as the newest vaccine type was available for polio, so we really did get it before everyone else did. I remember shots and odd tasting sugar cubes .For sure, polio never had a chance with us as soon as there was any vaccine. )We also were in the generation who went to the neighbors with a nickle to play with whoever had measles or mumps or chicken pox as every mom "knew it was better to get it over with all at once", and most families had at least 3-5 children back then.I remember going over with all of my brothers, including one so young I had to carry him, and we all gave my neighbor Jimmy our nickles. (The bonus lucky child , the one who first had whatever the current childhood illness was, was given a nickle by every child who came to get exposed. That first sick kid made a small 50s fortune( pile of nickles) and the neighborhood pretty much had each of these diseases in turn over in a flurry of sick kids and very tired moms.) I know one of my brothers had pretty poor vision as a result of his measles ( coke bottle glasses, and in a family with no history of visual problems or glasses until he got the measles in 2nd grade), and one got scarlet fever ( though curiously no one else in the neighborhood got that one, but he was lucky and had no obvious heart problems from it, and is 52 at this writing.I also know my dad got measles or mumps and was really really sick ( adults got it worse than kids it seemed to me. My father was the poster child of why it was better to get these diseases as children for the whole neighborhood. I remember the other moms coming over and tsk tsking at the doorway at the sight of him all covered in ice chips and wet towels to bring his fever down, and all agreeing they were smart to have THEIR children get all of these pesky childhood illnesses over at once.)

I know I was flabberghasted when vaccines for all of this stuff came out much later when I was an adult.I know the "big 3 " were seen as inevitable rights of passage in childhood back then ( measles , chickenpox, and mumps ) Every so now and again German measles came through but no one got very sick from that , and it was so mild sometimes we didn't even know we had had it. None of us even gave German Measles a thought. I don't think anyone knew how dangerous that one was to a pregnant woman who had not had it when I was a child. But then , no one would have discussed pregancy with a kid either, let alone complications or birth defects. Anyway, this was a little long, but that is my history with vaccines.

I know that we all have waaaaay more worldwide access to crap we never would have encountered in my younger years.It was unusual to even travel outside of our country then, unless you were in the military. And all contagious diseases can be very very fast & easy to spread due to all of that movement. I do believe it is inevitable that some illness wicked bad will someday make a play for the over abundant people of this planet. WE are too crowded together everywhere, and have also crammed animals altogether in small areas in many parts of the world many times in close proximity to people who are jammed together too. Species transfer and cross breeding of some smart virus or bacteria is inevitable.( after all viruses and bacteria were here long before we were and will doubtless be here long after we are gone) So far we have dodged bullets a few times, but I do think we are definitely in line for a big big catastrophe, viral wise. I know we trained at SF General every year about mass outbreaks, as well as other mass casualties and how we would triage the vast numbers of folks when we ran out of hospital space.I don't think they do that comprehensive of a training for all staff , country wide, at public hospitals for fun. So, maybe I am being an idiot by not vaccinating. As I am now retired, I am no longer going to be given first crack at the newest vaccine( as all first responders are in public health). And , allegedly ,I am now more vulnerable as a newly senior citizen (62). I am not so sure about that. I think that my exposure to all of this stuff as a kid might have actually toughened my immune system, but who knows? I think eating really good organic food, avoiding the junky stuff with all the chemicals and doing all the usual stuff for health goes a long way. ie : no alcohol and drugs,no smoking, regular exercise, balanced meals, avoiding junk food and maybe a few vitamens to boost the deficencies in our soils etc etc etc I guess we shall see someday if my theory holds up. Meanwhile, whatever you decide for your particular body and life is your business. I honestly don't know what I would do if I had children now regarding vaccines. The world is now a very different place from when I was a child.

Peace, Christmas