Does the secret work?

[someguy]

James Ray is the man now being investigated by Police in Sedona Arizona for the homicide of two individuals. These people paid up to $10k for a "spiritual detoxification" by Ray (a self-help guru, with appearances in the very successful movie "The Secret") and found themselves fasting for 36 hours and then entering a sweat lodge only to then die of severe organ failure!

Ray basically preaches that "The Secret" is the key to getting all that life desires. "The Secret" of course is the power of intention. So did Ray intend for these people to die? Or did he intend to screw these people out of a ton of money while jeopardizing their lives? How does the power of intention come into play here? And how about the followers of Ray's who died? Did they intend to die that day? This guy, just like every other presenter in the movie seem like dirty snake oil salesmen. For Christ sakes John Hagelin is in that movie! John is the spokesperson for the cult of the transcendental meditation movement, you know, the cult that makes you pay thousands of dollars to learn a mantra! I could go on and on about the TM movement and how big of a scam that is, but the point is that these people are clearly extremely dishonest people who are only out to make a ton of cash.

Also has anyone considered that the "law of attraction" contradicts the laws of physics that states "for every action there exists an equal and opposite reaction". Now, if you could just attract everything you wanted and you got it all (which is possible if you are greedy enough), someone would lose it all. So basically from your gain, there is an equal loss. So right there you have a contradiction, because if everyone could use the law of attraction and get everything they wanted, then there would be no-one left to lose.

I contend that the law of attraction is nothing but greed. Sure, if you focus all of your energy into getting what you want, it will work. But is that really a good thing for society? We see now that the richest people in America have expanded their wealth by leaps and bounds over the past decade, and we have also witnessed the massive decline of the lower class. This is nature at work, and nature is always striving for equilibrium, just as we should be. I know that "the secret" disobeys these basic laws of nature, and therefore can't be true.

This James Ray is going to get his equal and opposite reaction to his greedy ways very shortly. He will be indicted for homicide, and he knows it. Thats why he fled the state right after this incident. So please consider these ideas regarding the false premise of "the law of attraction", and thank you.:Yinyangv:

[Ronaldo]

What I wish to know is how did these people manage to die as a result of participating in a sweat lodge ceremony?
I've personally have participated in sweat lodge ceremonies for over twenty years led by various individuals such as Wallace Black Elk, Beautiful Painted Arrow, and others. These took place in diverse environments ranging from below freezing conditions to well over a hundred degrees. I have a large circle of friends who also participate in such ceremonies. Over all this time I have not known of or heard of anyone even needing medical attention after a sweat lodge. (I did know a lady that fell into the hot rock pit, fortunately her burns were not serious.)
So I'm really curious as to what went actually wrong during that sweat.
If you know please share the information if only to protect others.
Thanks,
Ron

[someguy]

From what I know these people were fasting for 36 hours prior to entering the sweat lodge. That may have been a problem, I dont know.... Also it was poorly constructed. It was 30 inches tall for one thing, and was built to accommodate a capacity of 10-12 safely, and he crammed 50 people in there!!!


YouTube - Sheriff Probes Sweat Lodge Deaths As Homicides (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJCrOjn-EDM)



What I wish to know is how did these people manage to die as a result of participating in a sweat lodge ceremony?
I've personally have participated in sweat lodge ceremonies for over twenty years led by various individuals such as Wallace Black Elk, Beautiful Painted Arrow, and others. These took place in diverse environments ranging from below freezing conditions to well over a hundred degrees. I have a large circle of friends who also participate in such ceremonies. Over all this time I have not known of or heard of anyone even needing medical attention after a sweat lodge. (I did know a lady that fell into the hot rock pit, fortunately her burns were not serious.)
So I'm really curious as to what went actually wrong during that sweat.
If you know please share the information if only to protect others.
Thanks,
Ron

[someguy]

UPDATE!!!

Third person to take part in sweat lodge dies. Police are investigating that as a homicide as well.

YouTube - Third Person Dies in Sweat Lodge Case (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz7Wh2qcVRs&feature=sub)

[Shandi]

These people voluntarily paid up to $10k for a "spiritual detoxification" So, the people who paid this fee must have believed that they were in need of what he was offering. "They "found" themselves fasting for 36 hours"


(How can one "find" themselves “fasting” ?, unless they have been involuntarily imprisoned)
I know that if I fasted for even 6 hours, I’d be in physical trauma, and experience a state of unconsciousness.

We all follow various teachings, but we are all bound by universal laws, such as the law of gravity, unless we are one of the few exceptional higher beings who have been known to “levitate” or “bi-locate.” Our bodies are also bound by other physical laws. When we get dehydrated, our bodies send signals to us. It's our responsibility to pay attention to those signals. It’s always a mistake to voluntarily give up control over our minds and bodies, and pay so much to do it.

Not knowing any of the details, my sense from this report is that people paid quite a bit of money to give up control to James Ray. That’s a big RED FLAG to me. We only need to remember incidents from the past where large numbers of people allowed themselves to be led and controlled by people like Ray.

I believe that when we give up control in these ways, it’s a way of saying that we trust someone else more than we trust ourselves. The primary message of the Law of Attractions is to get in alignment with yourself. If you’re not, all relationships that follow will be problematic. It’s not an easy thing to do, when all of lives, we’ve been taught to follow the commands of others, starting with our parents and teachers, many of whom are continuing the pattern that they were controlled by.

Ray may well have intended to “screw these people out of a ton of money” at any cost to them, if they were willing to allow him to take control of their lives before and during the events in the sweat lodge. And, they were blindly willing…..without evaluating the potential consequences.

If I went into a sweat lodge that was obviously so small as to accommodate only a certain number of people, and I
witnessed many more than a safe number crammed inside, I’d try to excuse myself from the entire ceremony, but of course I’d lose my money, but save my life. Would any of us, cram into a crowded elevator? We look, evaluate, and wait for the next one. Why? Because we know that it would be extremely uncomfortable, even if we’re in a hurry to get somewhere. Maybe not everyone would feel that way, but I think many would.

Intention is just a way of saying “what we intend”. Don’t each of us have intentions each day? It seems so much a part of living, even if it’s just the intention to get through a difficult period that we’re facing. It could be the intention of going to a party, or painting a picture, or taking a class. Life is filled with intentions.

Each of these people appeared to have the intention of “spiritual detoxification”, since that’s what they willingly paid up to $10,000 for. Some of us might see that as “naïve”, or even “dumb”, but our opinions of what others do for themselves is really just that….our opinions. Did these people unwittingly believe that they would achieve “spiritual detoxification”? I honestly don’t have any idea what many of those people thought that meant, but usually we detox to cleanse ourselves of various impurities which we’ve absorbed from food, environment, etc. These people must have believed that they were spiritually contaminated. I’m at a loss here, because I’ve never heard of it.

We all know that scams and schemes abound to separate us from our money. We’ve witnessed so much of that from corporations, individuals, politicians, spiritual practitioners, etc. and yet we hope that someone will actually deliver on their promises...to make us rich, healthier, free from illness, live longer, or to cleanse us spiritually.

No one makes us do anything…..unless we are imprisoned. And I can see that these people and so many others are actually imprisoned by their own lack of self confidence, self trust, and lack of willingness to become more self aware and personally responsible.

When things like this happen, we look to see who’s to “BLAME”. We rarely want to look at our responsibility for our unwise choices. In my own lifetime, each time I’ve been separated from my money by a scam artist, my anger has obscured my own responsibility for my choices. But each time, after awhile, I realized that none of these people twisted my arm, tied me up, or imprisoned me. I willingly gave them my money, because I believed them, with no actual basis, or reality check.

I saw a documentary a few weeks ago, called “American Greed”. It was shocking to see scam artists at work, and the people (rich and poor) who fell for these charismatic criminals, because they thought they were getting a “deal”.

I don’t believe that everyone in the movie “The Secret” is a “snake oil salesman”, but when we put people up on pedestals, they almost always fall, and usually on our heads!! We can lose our money or our lives, or both, as these people did.

They may have gotten their intention of “spiritual detoxification” in death. We’ll never know. How would anyone know???

[someguy]

These people voluntarily paid up to $10k for a "spiritual detoxification" So, the people who paid this fee must have believed that they were in need of what he was offering. "They "found" themselves fasting for 36 hours"


(How can one "find" themselves “fasting” ?, unless they have been involuntarily imprisoned)
I know that if I fasted for even 6 hours, I’d be in physical trauma, and experience a state of unconsciousness.

We all follow various teachings, but we are all bound by universal laws, such as the law of gravity, unless we are one of the few exceptional higher beings who have been known to “levitate” or “bi-locate.” Our bodies are also bound by other physical laws. When we get dehydrated, our bodies send signals to us. It's our responsibility to pay attention to those signals. It’s always a mistake to voluntarily give up control over our minds and bodies, and pay so much to do it.

Not knowing any of the details, my sense from this report is that people paid quite a bit of money to give up control to James Ray. That’s a big RED FLAG to me. We only need to remember incidents from the past where large numbers of people allowed themselves to be led and controlled by people like Ray.

I believe that when we give up control in these ways, it’s a way of saying that we trust someone else more than we trust ourselves. The primary message of the Law of Attractions is to get in alignment with yourself. If you’re not, all relationships that follow will be problematic. It’s not an easy thing to do, when all of lives, we’ve been taught to follow the commands of others, starting with our parents and teachers, many of whom are continuing the pattern that they were controlled by.

Ray may well have intended to “screw these people out of a ton of money” at any cost to them, if they were willing to allow him to take control of their lives before and during the events in the sweat lodge. And, they were blindly willing…..without evaluating the potential consequences.

If I went into a sweat lodge that was obviously so small as to accommodate only a certain number of people, and I
witnessed many more than a safe number crammed inside, I’d try to excuse myself from the entire ceremony, but of course I’d lose my money, but save my life. Would any of us, cram into a crowded elevator? We look, evaluate, and wait for the next one. Why? Because we know that it would be extremely uncomfortable, even if we’re in a hurry to get somewhere. Maybe not everyone would feel that way, but I think many would.

Intention is just a way of saying “what we intend”. Don’t each of us have intentions each day? It seems so much a part of living, even if it’s just the intention to get through a difficult period that we’re facing. It could be the intention of going to a party, or painting a picture, or taking a class. Life is filled with intentions.

Each of these people appeared to have the intention of “spiritual detoxification”, since that’s what they willingly paid up to $10,000 for. Some of us might see that as “naïve”, or even “dumb”, but our opinions of what others do for themselves is really just that….our opinions. Did these people unwittingly believe that they would achieve “spiritual detoxification”? I honestly don’t have any idea what many of those people thought that meant, but usually we detox to cleanse ourselves of various impurities which we’ve absorbed from food, environment, etc. These people must have believed that they were spiritually contaminated. I’m at a loss here, because I’ve never heard of it.

We all know that scams and schemes abound to separate us from our money. We’ve witnessed so much of that from corporations, individuals, politicians, spiritual practitioners, etc. and yet we hope that someone will actually deliver on their promises...to make us rich, healthier, free from illness, live longer, or to cleanse us spiritually.

No one makes us do anything…..unless we are imprisoned. And I can see that these people and so many others are actually imprisoned by their own lack of self confidence, self trust, and lack of willingness to become more self aware and personally responsible.

When things like this happen, we look to see who’s to “BLAME”. We rarely want to look at our responsibility for our unwise choices. In my own lifetime, each time I’ve been separated from my money by a scam artist, my anger has obscured my own responsibility for my choices. But each time, after awhile, I realized that none of these people twisted my arm, tied me up, or imprisoned me. I willingly gave them my money, because I believed them, with no actual basis, or reality check.

I saw a documentary a few weeks ago, called “American Greed”. It was shocking to see scam artists at work, and the people (rich and poor) who fell for these charismatic criminals, because they thought they were getting a “deal”.

I don’t believe that everyone in the movie “The Secret” is a “snake oil salesman”, but when we put people up on pedestals, they almost always fall, and usually on our heads!! We can lose our money or our lives, or both, as these people did.

They may have gotten their intention of “spiritual detoxification” in death. We’ll never know. How would anyone know???


One thing that should be noted is that Ray was standing in front of the sweat lodge door telling people not to help others who had passed out and dictating who could leave and when.

He was held in high regards by these people who died, and attended his retreat, as well as many other people around the globe. He is an exemplar of "the secret" in action, yet his neglect led to three deaths! Does that not say anything about "the secret" and it's validity? If this guy knows "the secret" so well and sells it, why then is this happening to him? He purposefully kept these people inside of this sweat lodge, he's a jerk, and also a spokesperson for a better life???????? Contradiction....:hmmm:

People do need to take responsibility for their own life and not become followers of any group or guru, but I think it is unfair to assert the blame entirely on the deceased. And that is partly why I am pointing out the hypocrisy of "the secret" so that I can highlight this fraudulent path, and deter people from following yet another false ideology(the secret), with all of its own false gurus (James Ray, John Hagelin, Oprah).

[justme]

WOW....I didn't know he was tried and already found guilty!!!!! :hmmm:

I personally don't know about the law of attraction and don't really care to.

What I do know personally is if you put out good to others, good usually returns.

If you put out bad or the negative, it comes back too.... Usually very quickly...

[someguy]

WOW....I didn't know he was tried and already found guilty!!!!! :hmmm:

I personally don't know about the law of attraction and don't really care to.

What I do know personally is if you put out good to others, good usually returns.

If you put out bad or the negative, it comes back too.... Usually very quickly...


Wow I didn't know that either!!!! Where did you get that info?

[Zeno Swijtink]

Whatever the secret is, the secret does not work for us. We need to work for the secret.

Maybe that's the secret?

[someguy]

Whatever the secret is, the secret does not work for us. We need to work for the secret.

Maybe that's the secret?

Could you expand on that thought please?

How does one work for the secret?

Why should one work for the secret?

Did James Ray work for the secret?

[Shandi]

One man with the ability to control such a large group of people,
without force, indicates to me that these people may have been in a "trance" of some kind, that interfered with their own rational judgement.

That there was not one person who was able to stand up against this man, when something must have been going on inside of them, that felt "off".

It reminds me of situations I've read about where one person is inflicting violence on another, and an entire group of people stand by, doing nothing, except "watching".

We hold people in "high regard" as long as what they say matches what they do. Congruency in word and action. I have held certain people this way, until their actions created a feeling in me that something wasn't ringing true.

This is what the Law of Attractions refers to as our personal
"Guidance System". People will interpret things to suit themselves, as we all know. Many people can look at the same thing, and have as many interpretations.

Jerry and Esther Hicks have been teaching about "Deliberate Creating" or the Law of Attraction since the 80's. There only advice has always been to tune in to your own guidance. They don't tell people what to do, or how to do it. Their teachings are all about trusting your feelings. If someone or something gives you a negative feeling, that's a clue....to pay attention to the inner guidance that we were born with.

We've been programed since birth by our parents or caregivers, who themselves were out of alignment. and under the control of others. I was raised by a parent who was mentally ill, alcoholic, and violent. During my childhood I was under his control through violence.

But even as a young girl of 5, I sensed that something was "off" with him, so all I could do was to try to stay out of his way, to avoid being beaten.
Something inside of me, (my inner voice) told me that what he was doing to me wasn't right. But I had to endure and try to survive.

The last time he beat me, I was 12, and I was curled up in a ball trying to protect myself. The voice inside of me, came out, and I screamed at him, "I hate you!". He stopped hitting me, and seemed to be in shock. He said "I can't believe you said that!"

That incident created a thought in me, and that was "I will not survive if I stay here." Very soon after that, I ran away from home. I called Social Services and asked them to find a new place for me to live.

I was just a young girl, and I stood up to my crazy father who had a weapon of violence in his hand. Of course, I had never held him in high regard, except maybe as a toddler. When I was 4, I observed violent behavior in him, and was instrumental in saving my mother's life by warning her of his intent to stab her in the back.

So, because of my background, I will not give anyone "high regard" no matter what their title or position is. I listen to the words that people say, but their behavior is what I take my clues from.

A lot of religious and political leaders have been held in "high regard" and they've been in the news for years, and many times end up in prison. Now we can add Ray to the list.

I don't take my guidance from any church, organization, or person. I have learned to trust my own feelings, even though at times I've ignored them, and every time.....it's been trouble for me!

It's unfortunate that not one of this large group of people was able to stand up against him. It will be interesting to hear their stories, and what they must have been feeling inside that they were completely ignoring.

All I know about the Law of Attraction is that it means "Like attracts like".
Would a devout Christan woman be attracted to an athiest? Maybe, but I doubt if the relationship would last very long, since their values are so opposite.

To me the "Secret" means to tune in to yourself, and put no one above you. Most people I met, do not trust themselves, and continually ask others for advice on what to do and how to be. I believe this has been passed on from others who have lived their lives so much under the control of others, that they completely out of touch with themselves.

People have asked for my advice most of my life. They have asked what the "right" way is to do something, and my advice has always been "Your way is the right way". This was long before I'd ever heard of the Law of Attraction or the "Secret".

I've always felt that I had a "secret", but I couldn't articulate what it was. Now I know that I can thank my crazy Dad for helping me to tune in to myself when confronted with such irrational and violent behavior.

Without that "unwanted" experience, I wouldn't have had such a high degree of desire for a contrasting experience of peace. Nor would I have been so motivated to leave, in order to survive.

I don't "blame" my father. I think he did the best he could with the hand he was dealt; he wasn't evil, just crazy.

I don't think that Ray intended to kill anyone, but his greed overshadowed his responsibility to oversee the well being of people who had put their trust in him. Sometimes having power over others does strange things to people.

I only hope that this tragedy serves as a guide for others who may be
tempted to give up control to anyone, in order to achieve anything....even "spiritual detoxification"....which seemed to be highly valued by this group, who paid thousands for it.

I look forward to hearing testimonials from the survivors, not so much about Ray, but about themselves and what they were feeling.


One thing that should be noted is that Ray was standing in front of the sweat lodge door telling people not to help others who had passed out and dictating who could leave and when.

He was held in high regards by these people who died, and attended his retreat, as well as many other people around the globe. He is an exemplar of "the secret" in action, yet his neglect led to three deaths! Does that not say anything about "the secret" and it's validity? If this guy knows "the secret" so well and sells it, why then is this happening to him? He purposefully kept these people inside of this sweat lodge, he's a jerk, and also a spokesperson for a better life???????? Contradiction....:hmmm:

People do need to take responsibility for their own life and not become followers of any group or guru, but I think it is unfair to assert the blame entirely on the deceased. And that is partly why I am pointing out the hypocrisy of "the secret" so that I can highlight this fraudulent path, and deter people from following yet another false ideology(the secret), with all of its own false gurus (James Ray, John Hagelin, Oprah).

[Ontario99]

Part of the trouble with movies like The Secret and The Law of Attraction is fanaticism. What happens to many people who encounter a seemingly magical system or law is the abandonment of common sense. The Law of Attraction is a valid principle when balances with all the tools of the work ethic that we have been inculcated in our culture, school and so on. The trouble happens when we throw out our common sense in favor of a short-cut. The Law of Attraction taken out of the context of common sense is doomed to failure.

A case in point. A friend was doing some automatic writing in the early 1990s. The writing said to go to the Southwest and build yurts. She did. She encountered a group based on The Urantia Book that were building yurts in Sedona, AZ and joined them. When I spoke with her on the phone she said she was a part of an intentional community based on men and women living together as equals. I visited. Itb was nothing like she had described. It was the "same as it ever was" cult where the leader (a man) told people what to do. When she asked me what I thought I said:

I didn't see any evidence of practicing to live together as equals and that I thought everyone there had some kind of Father-wound they were trying to work out magically and that it was a cult. She explained that when Y2K was going to happen and the collapse came that everyone would start to live together and all would be paradise and they were stockpiling gasoline. I countered with that history has shown that when collapses of culture happen people freak and revert to old familiar ways and that what she was suggesting was magical thinking and the wool was being pulled over her eyes in the name of channeling etc.

Life and goals and all that is about working for it. Removing obstacles as they arise, reframing problems cognitively both logicallu and beyond logical as in with the law of attraction. As I say to my clients and students work on ourselves is about learning, effective struggle, help and surrender to something higher in us. We need all 4 principles. Logical is so pervasive in our culture that The Secret seems all powerful. We need logic and hard work to set up a space for the unknown to turn hazard into magic - maybe. But common sense.

[someguy]

The secret is just like any other system that claims to help people live a better life... ex: prayer, religion, meditation and so on. Do any of these systems, with the billions of believers and followers, over the thousands of years of practice, create positive living on this earth? I would say no.

Now if James Ray was utilizing the law of attraction for all these years, and it made him the success that he was, why would he need to become greedy in the first place?

Let's assume that for some unknown reason he gave into greed, even though he was getting everything he wanted through the law of attraction. Let's also assume that his greed (not the LOA) got him into the trouble he's in right now. Why is it that he can't just use the law of attraction to get out of his situation?

Remember , he is no amateur. He has used the law of attraction for many years, and he attributes most of his success to the law of attraction. He knows how to use it (if it exists).

I think this is a prime example of how the secret could not possibly work. You have a self professed user/guru of the secret being called a scumbag on television by Geraldo because he is responsible for the deaths of three individuals. This is not something that Ray had intended on. How could this be if the LOA is always working? No person would ever intend for this (to be facing prison, and having your reputation tarnished, and possibly losing all your money and freedom). Yet the LOA states clearly that Ray must have intended for this to happen because the LOA works whether you are aware of it or not.


I am shocked and baffled that people are not questioning the LOA more after reading about James Ray. It makes me think of when the Catholic Preists were molesting children. Me, being a non catholic thought, how in the world could anyone remain a catholic after knowing that these holy men were raping children??? But many catholics remained devout. Why? How do these catholics rationalize this type of behavior? They know its wrong, they know that the holy spirit is supposed to be very much with the preists. Would the holy spirit, the very thing these people pray to, aid a preist in raping a child? If so, why would you worship such a spirit? Its all so ridiculous.

Why would anyone take advice from James Ray? He has advised you to believe in the LOA, but why believe him? Why believe anything? What has belief done to better this world?

[Clancy]

The secret is just like any other system that claims to help people live a better life... ex: prayer, religion, meditation and so on. Do any of these systems, with the billions of believers and followers, over the thousands of years of practice, create positive living on this earth? I would say no...

I don't know about the 'secret' but myriad studies have shown that prayer, meditation and leading a religious life have many tangible benefits in terms of quality of life. I'm well aware of the abuses of the above, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

[someguy]

I don't know about the 'secret' but myriad studies have shown that prayer, meditation and leading a religious life have many tangible benefits in terms of quality of life. I'm well aware of the abuses of the above, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Yeah I know about all those studies. When people are asked about prayer and so forth they often have positive things to say about it. BUt just a quick examination of the world as a whole, one can see that prayer, meditation and such have no real benefit to the human race at all.

[Ronaldo]

If nothing else when people are praying or meditating they are not killing, stealing, or engaged in some other form of evil doing. Just as our current survival is the result of our early ancestors being out of the "food chain" simply because they slept; those who meditate and pray are not out there manifesting in any form negative behavior. And guess what — often their non-negative behavior continues.

[Clancy]

Yeah I know about all those studies. When people are asked about prayer and so forth they often have positive things to say about it. BUt just a quick examination of the world as a whole, one can see that prayer, meditation and such have no real benefit to the human race at all.

That's why scientific studies are so valuable. We see the world through a filter of our own making, as a result of our own motivations and feelings.

The scientific method helps us see it as it really is, not as we think it is. If your premise were true, the studies would back you up, but, they don't.

[Ontario99]

Yeah I know about all those studies. When people are asked about prayer and so forth they often have positive things to say about it. BUt just a quick examination of the world as a whole, one can see that prayer, meditation and such have no real benefit to the human race at all.


Never believe belief (without testing it). If you are asked to believe something that is suspect, don't go there. Don't believe it. Skepticism is healthy as long as anger and bitterness don't color it - the culprits of fear. The best way to test something out is by experience. If what you are testing - the Law of Attraction for example doesn't work for you don't use it. The LOA could be one of many tools in your kit-bag on the road to success. Some beliefs we take on faith - such as a belief in God. And faith can be shaken or not. we can have a mystical experience where God can be felt.

When I first heard of tofu I was disgusted by the idea of it - an opinion that could have become a belief. So I ventured to buy some and test it out. I crushed it and squeezed the water out into a consistence like cottage cheese, added mayo and sprouts and made sandwiches. Yum!

I'm hungry now, see ya.

[someguy]

That's why scientific studies are so valuable. We see the world through a filter of our own making, as a result of our own motivations and feelings.

The scientific method helps us see it as it really is, not as we think it is. If your premise were true, the studies would back you up, but, they don't.

I'd be interested in seeing these studies that show the benefit to the world through these systems. As I see the world, I see chaos. I see war, famine, disease, hunger, rich people, very very poor people, strife, anger, fear, neurotic behavior in all people, etc..... How is it that your scientific studies could translate these things into positives, being that the vast majority of the world believes in a system such as meditation and prayer? If your science were correct the world would be a far greater place, right?

Now I do see how prayer and meditation can give a person a sense of self righteousness, pride and even happiness. But these are only temporary states of being. Right? All people are consumed by fear, anxiety, and so on, regardless of faith, prayer, religion and all the rest of it. So I don't see where you are coming from by stating that prayer and meditation benefit human kind.

[Clancy]

Here's a good one to start with, posted by Zeno only a few hours ago;
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccoreader/59504-meditation-secret-plain-sight.html#post99995

Then you could peruse some of the scientific literature, further googling whatever catches your interest;
research science study meditation prayer - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&ei=3QbmSp7MGpLkswOilaXDAw&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAsQBSgA&q=research+science+study+meditation+prayer&spell=1)


I'd be interested in seeing these studies that show the benefit to the world through these systems. As I see the world, I see chaos. I see war, famine, disease, hunger, rich people, very very poor people, strife, anger, fear, neurotic behavior in all people, etc..... How is it that your scientific studies could translate these things into positives, being that the vast majority of the world believes in a system such as meditation and prayer? If your science were correct the world would be a far greater place, right?

Now I do see how prayer and meditation can give a person a sense of self righteousness, pride and even happiness. But these are only temporary states of being. Right? All people are consumed by fear, anxiety, and so on, regardless of faith, prayer, religion and all the rest of it. So I don't see where you are coming from by stating that prayer and meditation benefit human kind.

[someguy]

Here's a good one to start with, posted by Zeno only a few hours ago;
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccoreader/59504-meditation-secret-plain-sight.html#post99995

Then you could peruse some of the scientific literature, further googling whatever catches your interest;
research science study meditation prayer - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&ei=3QbmSp7MGpLkswOilaXDAw&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAsQBSgA&q=research+science+study+meditation+prayer&spell=1)

I read Zeno's article and I see exactly whats going on here. Sitting quietly for a short time each day has to have an effect on people. I would say stress relief is the biggest effect. So yes Clancy, meditation can have an impact on personal experience, but that doesn't really help the human race. People have been meditating for thousands of years, and yet atom bombs have been created, suicide bombings etc.... The world is not a prettier place, or less violent one.

Can I recommend a video for you to watch?

YouTube - Krishnamurti with Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, part 1 of 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqL9c4jYigk)

There are 5 parts, the link is part 1. Im sure you can figure out how to get the other 4. Please do watch Clancy.

[Clancy]

Lowered blood pressure, greater immune response, better sleep, less stress, less disease, longer life and many more actual, measurable benefits "don't really help the human race" in your opinion?

I think that's a bizarre position to take.



I read Zeno's article and I see exactly whats going on here. Sitting quietly for a short time each day has to have an effect on people. I would say stress relief is the biggest effect. So yes Clancy, meditation can have an impact on personal experience, but that doesn't really help the human race. People have been meditating for thousands of years, and yet atom bombs have been created, suicide bombings etc.... The world is not a prettier place, or less violent one.

Can I recommend a video for you to watch?

YouTube - Krishnamurti with Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, part 1 of 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqL9c4jYigk)

There are 5 parts, the link is part 1. Im sure you can figure out how to get the other 4. Please do watch Clancy.

[someguy]

Lowered blood pressure, better sleep, less stress, less disease, longer life and many more actual, measurable benefits "don't really help the human race" in your opinion?

I think that's a bizarre position to take.

Sure it benefits a persons experience, it is a relaxing thing to do, and relaxation does produce beneficial effects. The same benefits could be attained through several other activities such as exercise, therapy, diet, and even drugs.

And yes meditation also has its negatives! That is why meditation has never lived up to its claims of bringing about a higher level of consciousness, world peace, personal peace, and so on. It brings about frustration to some, depression in others, a sense of failure, or an added obligation. Just like everything else it has good and bad (yin and yang).

Im talking about a profound purely beneficial difference in society. What profoundly beneficial effect has conventional meditation brought about? Not one. That is obvious, because it has not lived up to it's claims of bringing enlightenment, peace, perpetual happiness, etc.....

[Ontario99]

In the end its all about choice. Where do we put our attention and what is the quality of that attention. It seems to me that the reasons that mediation does NOT work has to do with choice, our level of maturity and opportunity/education. Some guy in a third world country with nothing left to lose might choose a violent response because that's all he knows.

Should we abandon meditation because it works only for a few? Medications may take the edge off and people with depression or anxiety related disorders may even resist medications because it's not under their direct control. Does that mean we should abandon promotion of medications for mood related problems?

Again the answer could be no. We use all the tools and continue to explore the reaches of consciousness where-ever it may lead. Is that not the balanced and most sensible approach?


Sure it benefits a persons experience, it is a relaxing thing to do, and relaxation does produce beneficial effects. The same benefits could be attained through several other activities such as exercise, therapy, diet, and even drugs.

And yes meditation also has its negatives! That is why meditation has never lived up to its claims of bringing about a higher level of consciousness, world peace, personal peace, and so on. It brings about frustration to some, depression in others, a sense of failure, or an added obligation. Just like everything else it has good and bad (yin and yang).

Im talking about a profound purely beneficial difference in society. What profoundly beneficial effect has conventional meditation brought about? Not one. That is obvious, because it has not lived up to it's claims of bringing enlightenment, peace, perpetual happiness, etc.....

[justme]

The secret is just like any other system that claims to help people live a better life... ex: prayer, religion, meditation and so on. Do any of these systems, with the billions of believers and followers, over the thousands of years of practice, create positive living on this earth? I would say no.

Now if James Ray was utilizing the law of attraction for all these years, and it made him the success that he was, why would he need to become greedy in the first place?

Let's assume that for some unknown reason he gave into greed, even though he was getting everything he wanted through the law of attraction. Let's also assume that his greed (not the LOA) got him into the trouble he's in right now. Why is it that he can't just use the law of attraction to get out of his situation?

Remember , he is no amateur. He has used the law of attraction for many years, and he attributes most of his success to the law of attraction. He knows how to use it (if it exists).

I think this is a prime example of how the secret could not possibly work. You have a self professed user/guru of the secret being called a scumbag on television by Geraldo because he is responsible for the deaths of three individuals. This is not something that Ray had intended on. How could this be if the LOA is always working? No person would ever intend for this (to be facing prison, and having your reputation tarnished, and possibly losing all your money and freedom). Yet the LOA states clearly that Ray must have intended for this to happen because the LOA works whether you are aware of it or not.


I am shocked and baffled that people are not questioning the LOA more after reading about James Ray. It makes me think of when the Catholic Preists were molesting children. Me, being a non catholic thought, how in the world could anyone remain a catholic after knowing that these holy men were raping children??? But many catholics remained devout. Why? How do these catholics rationalize this type of behavior? They know its wrong, they know that the holy spirit is supposed to be very much with the preists. Would the holy spirit, the very thing these people pray to, aid a preist in raping a child? If so, why would you worship such a spirit? Its all so ridiculous.

Why would anyone take advice from James Ray? He has advised you to believe in the LOA, but why believe him? Why believe anything? What has belief done to better this world?

I have to disgree someguy... I personally believe religions, meditation etc have created postive results on Earth... Some that come to mind are Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Dalai Lama, Ghandi, Martin Luther King..

The difference between tese examples and James Ray are that the positive examples didn't live their sprituality for personal gain.

There are bad examples of people using these methods for a sinister and un-ethical intent...

To say the Christianity is bad because of the Crusades, etc. doesn't make sense.

To say Islam is bad because of terrorist groups is wrong...

To say Buddhism is bad because of teachers that take advantage of their students is wrong too...

I think you see my personal view..

The Law of Attraction IS NOT James Ray.... He just used it in a negative way....

Like I posted earlier, I am not really attracted by "The Secret" even though I saw the DVD. I just don't want to ridicule it because of one man's greed...

[someguy]

I have to disgree someguy... I personally believe religions, meditation etc have created postive results on Earth... Some that come to mind are Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Dalai Lama, Ghandi, Martin Luther King..

The difference between tese examples and James Ray are that the positive examples didn't live their sprituality for personal gain.

There are bad examples of people using these methods for a sinister and un-ethical intent...

To say the Christianity is bad because of the Crusades, etc. doesn't make sense.

To say Islam is bad because of terrorist groups is wrong...

To say Buddhism is bad because of teachers that take advantage of their students is wrong too...

I think you see my personal view..

The Law of Attraction IS NOT James Ray.... He just used it in a negative way....

Like I posted earlier, I am not really attracted by "The Secret" even though I saw the DVD. I just don't want to ridicule it because of one man's greed...

Hey Justme Thanks for the response.


In my previous reply to clancy I said that meditation was good to the extent of helping shape a persons experience. I know that to be true of all major religions. I do see the good that MLK Jr, Gandi, and all the rest of them did, but what real impact did those individuals have on others? Have they prevented wars, violence, hunger, or made any significant impact on the world? Human civilization is generally the same as its always been in the grand scheme of things, very violent, depraved, and confusing.


What I am saying is that none of these rituals , religions, meditations, organizations, and such, can ever bring any sort of true lasting benefit to human society.

BTW, Im not just saying, oh hey James Ray did this bad thing therefor the secret is a bad thing. No. I am saying that if James Ray knows how to utilize the secret to his advantage all the time, why didnt he avoid this problem he now faces? Thats a very valid question that nobody has taken on yet. Id like to hear someone talk on that please.

Its like someone telling you to repeat a mantra over and over again in your head while you sit still with your eyes closed and they say this will bring you enlightenment, and that you will be at peace with the universe. Yet at the same time that same man could be wanted in the United States for tax fraud. How does that happen to someone who is at peace with the universe? Im speaking of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, the deceased leader of the transcendental meditation movement, which John Hagelin (of the secret) is heavily involved in. Its like when a student at the Maharishi University of Managment (in Fairfield Iowa) stabs another student in the face with a pencil, only to be put somewhere else unsupervised, only then for the kid to grab a kitchen knife and stab another student to death! How could an enlightened being and all of his enlightened followers at his school allow something like that to happen? Does that not raise some questions about the validity of transcendental meditation?

Does James Ray's behavior call into question his entire status as an Intentor (or is Co-creator??) and also the validity of the belief system itself? I do think it does call these things into question heavily, and I am shocked that it seemingly does not with anyone else at all.

[Ontario99]

Let's assume James Ray did get greedy. Greed comes from a feeling of needing more. The dictionary defines greedy as - "having or showing an intense and selfish desire for something, esp. wealth or power". I would further posit that greed comes from fear of not being enough. The focus was that he was purported to have was a callous disregard for the well being of the people he was serving and instead he was more focused on the money etc. He was exercising the LOA from a fear/greed based place without proper regard to peoples well being and safety. So he attracted to himself mistakes based on fear of not being enough. His focus seemed not to be on the people he was serving but an abstract principle. He traded in his higher values for a fear greed money object and attracted to himself an investigation into possible criminal negligence.

Okay why can't he get out of the situation he's in through using the LOA?
1. Apparently he has lessons to learn about fear and greed. Using fear/greed he attracted to himself (unconsciously) consequences of his unwitting actions to which he must answer.

2. He like most of us assumes (the ego) that we operate out of one motivation all of the time. This isn't really true. If it were true - if we were truly unified inside then the majority of our problems would disappear overnight. In fact we are a complex set of contradictory belief and motivational systems within. Self-sabotage is a term we're all familiar. This happens all the time to all of us. From a logical stand point it appears that we are whole and complete. Add some negative emotions to this mix and poof you have self-sabotage. Everyone has a shadow within, parts of themselves that have dark-fear based motivations, desires etc. Perhaps James Ray needs to look at his shadow and this is his way of doing that.

3. If life were simple then there would be no secrets and the LOA would work for everyone because we would all be perfect and at the same level of development. That is why the LOA by itself doesn't work. We must also use what we have learned, effective struggle, help (and this helps us realize we live in an interdependent world*) and surrender (if we are to move beyond our egos into the mystic). BTW surrender is not for everyone.

------------------------------------
* When I think of the span of my life and how I got here I think about my relationships. I met this person and then I learn such and such. Based on that I choice this direction over that one. This person inspired me to do this and another elicited rebellion. In the span of my life I see all this help in a bigger community.


The secret is just like any other system that claims to help people live a better life... ex: prayer, religion, meditation and so on. Do any of these systems, with the billions of believers and followers, over the thousands of years of practice, create positive living on this earth? I would say no.

Now if James Ray was utilizing the law of attraction for all these years, and it made him the success that he was, why would he need to become greedy in the first place?

Let's assume that for some unknown reason he gave into greed, even though he was getting everything he wanted through the law of attraction. Let's also assume that his greed (not the LOA) got him into the trouble he's in right now. Why is it that he can't just use the law of attraction to get out of his situation?

Remember , he is no amateur. He has used the law of attraction for many years, and he attributes most of his success to the law of attraction. He knows how to use it (if it exists).

I think this is a prime example of how the secret could not possibly work. You have a self professed user/guru of the secret being called a scumbag on television by Geraldo because he is responsible for the deaths of three individuals. This is not something that Ray had intended on. How could this be if the LOA is always working? No person would ever intend for this (to be facing prison, and having your reputation tarnished, and possibly losing all your money and freedom). Yet the LOA states clearly that Ray must have intended for this to happen because the LOA works whether you are aware of it or not.


I am shocked and baffled that people are not questioning the LOA more after reading about James Ray. It makes me think of when the Catholic Preists were molesting children. Me, being a non catholic thought, how in the world could anyone remain a catholic after knowing that these holy men were raping children??? But many catholics remained devout. Why? How do these catholics rationalize this type of behavior? They know its wrong, they know that the holy spirit is supposed to be very much with the preists. Would the holy spirit, the very thing these people pray to, aid a preist in raping a child? If so, why would you worship such a spirit? Its all so ridiculous.

Why would anyone take advice from James Ray? He has advised you to believe in the LOA, but why believe him? Why believe anything? What has belief done to better this world?

[Clancy]

...What I am saying is that none of these rituals , religions, meditations, organizations, and such, can ever bring any sort of true lasting benefit to human society...

You could incorrectly say the same thing about anything at all.

You could say that anger and frustration are at the root of all wars and therefore human feelings do us no good.

Or, you could say that since virtually all wars are organized affairs that political organizations have done us no good.

They're all slightly absurd statements.

[justme]

Hey Justme Thanks for the response.


In my previous reply to clancy I said that meditation was good to the extent of helping shape a persons experience. I know that to be true of all major religions. I do see the good that MLK Jr, Gandi, and all the rest of them did, but what real impact did those individuals have on others? Have they prevented wars, violence, hunger, or made any significant impact on the world? Human civilization is generally the same as its always been in the grand scheme of things, very violent, depraved, and confusing.


What I am saying is that none of these rituals , religions, meditations, organizations, and such, can ever bring any sort of true lasting benefit to human society.

BTW, Im not just saying, oh hey James Ray did this bad thing therefor the secret is a bad thing. No. I am saying that if James Ray knows how to utilize the secret to his advantage all the time, why didnt he avoid this problem he now faces? Thats a very valid question that nobody has taken on yet. Id like to hear someone talk on that please.

Its like someone telling you to repeat a mantra over and over again in your head while you sit still with your eyes closed and they say this will bring you enlightenment, and that you will be at peace with the universe. Yet at the same time that same man could be wanted in the United States for tax fraud. How does that happen to someone who is at peace with the universe? Im speaking of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, the deceased leader of the transcendental meditation movement, which John Hagelin (of the secret) is heavily involved in. Its like when a student at the Maharishi University of Managment (in Fairfield Iowa) stabs another student in the face with a pencil, only to be put somewhere else unsupervised, only then for the kid to grab a kitchen knife and stab another student to death! How could an enlightened being and all of his enlightened followers at his school allow something like that to happen? Does that not raise some questions about the validity of transcendental meditation?

Does James Ray's behavior call into question his entire status as an Intentor (or is Co-creator??) and also the validity of the belief system itself? I do think it does call these things into question heavily, and I am shocked that it seemingly does not with anyone else at all.

Well, at least we agree to disagree... LOL

I am reminded of a situation where, at work, the talk was all about the bad things going on there. One person, with a more positive outlook changed the tone of the meeting. This happened over 10 years ago and I still remember and reflect on it at times...

I do believe that one person can have a positive effect on a whole group. Then that group can affect others and so on and so on.

Maybe, someguy, you ought to drop the negative people affiliated with spirituality, etc. for a few moments and focus on the good ones.

Then drop the walls that we all have to something different and say, "hey maybe I'll take a closer look"...

If not, that is ok too... Thanks for sticking by your opinion and sharing it.... Also for listening to others views.... Hmmm...good start huh?

[Ontario99]

You could incorrectly say the same thing about anything at all.

You could say that anger and frustration are at the root of all wars and therefore human feelings do us no good.

Or, you could say that since virtually all wars are organized affairs that political organizations have done us no good.

They're all slightly absurd statements.

The expression of anger and frustration in violent ways may be unproductive. Most people express their anger and maybe frustration in an "Acting-out" way. Dealing with negative feelings responsibly is quite a challenge. We have them for sure.

Many arguments listed here facetiously or otherwise seem to be provocative either/or propositions. So what about the rainbow of possibilities in-between?

[Clancy]

The expression of anger and frustration in violent ways may be unproductive. Most people express their anger and maybe frustration in an "Acting-out" way. Dealing with negative feelings responsibly is quite a challenge. We have them for sure.

Many arguments listed here facetiously or otherwise seem to be provocative either/or propositions. So what about the rainbow of possibilities in-between?

I think you misunderstood my analogy. My point is that it's just as absurd to say that feelings do us no good because they cause war as it is to say meditation does us no good because some meditators misuse people.

[someguy]

You could incorrectly say the same thing about anything at all.

You could say that anger and frustration are at the root of all wars and therefore human feelings do us no good. I would never say that frustration and anger are the root cause of war, but they are a symptom that arises when people are divided by ideaology such as the secret, or governments, or religion, or meditation, you get the idea. I say division does us no good and that is the root problem of all wars.

Or, you could say that since virtually all wars are organized affairs that political organizations have done us no good.What real good have political institutions brought the human race, (not just you)? why would you say that an organisation that brings us war does good?

They're all slightly absurd statements. [B]I understand that your statements seem absurd but I truly dont see my statement being absurd at all. "What I am saying is that none of these rituals , religions, meditations, organizations, and such, can ever bring any sort of true lasting benefit to human society".../B]

he

[someguy]

Let's assume James Ray did get greedy. Greed comes from a feeling of needing more. The dictionary defines greedy as - "having or showing an intense and selfish desire for something, esp. wealth or power". I would further posit that greed comes from fear of not being enough.Great. What does the LOA do to confront the issue of fear in one's life? The focus was that he was purported to have was a callous disregard for the well being of the people he was serving and instead he was more focused on the money etc. He was exercising the LOA from a fear/greed based place without proper regard to peoples well being and safety.Does it say in the secret that your intentions need to be in a certain place or state? So he attracted to himself mistakes based on fear of not being enough. His focus seemed not to be on the people he was serving but an abstract principle.To me, his focus was on making money, that's not very abstract. He traded in his higher values for a fear greed money object and attracted to himself an investigation into possible criminal negligence.

Okay why can't he get out of the situation he's in through using the LOA?
1. Apparently he has lessons to learn about fear and greed. Using fear/greed he attracted to himself (unconsciously) consequences of his unwitting actions to which he must answer. But why would he be held accountable if he could just intend with the best of intentions to make the situation better? He claims to know how to do it. Don't you think that the law that states for every action there exists an equal and opposite reaction is more appropriate for this situation? THat is a proven law of nature. It is the yin and the yang. The entire universe works off of this law, and the law of attraction seems to either A) be in conflict with this law or B) not be real. Do you see what Im saying????:wink:

2. He like most of us assumes (the ego) that we operate out of one motivation all of the time. This isn't really true. If it were true - if we were truly unified inside then the majority of our problems would disappear overnight. In fact we are a complex set of contradictory belief and motivational systems within. Self-sabotage is a term we're all familiar. This happens all the time to all of us. From a logical stand point it appears that we are whole and complete. Add some negative emotions to this mix and poof you have self-sabotage. Everyone has a shadow within, parts of themselves that have dark-fear based motivations, desires etc. Perhaps James Ray needs to look at his shadow and this is his way of doing that.DOn't we all need to examine our own fears and desires (ourselves) and understand it wholly before we can take any appropriate action?

3. If life were simple then there would be no secrets and the LOA would work for everyone because we would all be perfect and at the same level of development. That is why the LOA by itself doesn't work. We must also use what we have learned, effective struggle, help (and this helps us realize we live in an interdependent world*) and surrender (if we are to move beyond our egos into the mystic). BTW surrender is not for everyone.Who are you surrendering to? and why?



Ep

[someguy]

This is a reply to clancy's post with quotes from Clancy. SOrry for the confusion.



You could incorrectly say the same thing about anything at all.

You could say that anger and frustration are at the root of all wars and therefore human feelings do us no good. I would never say that frustration and anger are the root cause of war, but they are a symptom that arises when people are divided by ideaology such as the secret, or governments, or religion, or meditation, you get the idea. I say division does us no good and that is the root problem of all wars.

Or, you could say that since virtually all wars are organized affairs that political organizations have done us no good.What real good have political institutions brought the human race, (not just you)? why would you say that an organisation that brings us war does good?

They're all slightly absurd statements. [b]I understand that your statements seem absurd but I truly dont see my statement being absurd at all. "What I am saying is that none of these rituals , religions, meditations, organizations, and such, can ever bring any sort of true lasting benefit to human society".../B]

[Clancy]

Umm... those 'organizations' that create wars also bring you education, medicine, health care, police protection and fire services, housing, food, the internet, roads, water etc etc etc. Otherwise, your life expectancy would be about 30 years. It's obvious that I made a mistake trying to use an analogy here, carry on, I'm done.


This is a reply to clancy's post with quotes from Clancy. SOrry for the confusion.



You could incorrectly say the same thing about anything at all.

You could say that anger and frustration are at the root of all wars and therefore human feelings do us no good. I would never say that frustration and anger are the root cause of war, but they are a symptom that arises when people are divided by ideaology such as the secret, or governments, or religion, or meditation, you get the idea. I say division does us no good and that is the root problem of all wars.

Or, you could say that since virtually all wars are organized affairs that political organizations have done us no good.What real good have political institutions brought the human race, (not just you)? why would you say that an organisation that brings us war does good?

They're all slightly absurd statements. [b]I understand that your statements seem absurd but I truly dont see my statement being absurd at all. "What I am saying is that none of these rituals , religions, meditations, organizations, and such, can ever bring any sort of true lasting benefit to human society".../B]

[someguy]

Umm... those 'organizations' that create wars also bring you education, medicine, health care, police protection and fire services, housing, food, the internet, roads, water etc etc etc. Otherwise, your life expectancy would be about 30 years. It's obvious that I made a mistake trying to use an analogy here, carry on, I'm done.

Umm... I assume you are talking about America. I asked you to look at the world as a whole.

Also you talk about education as a good thing, but you call americans dumb as retards in an article you just posted. Medicine doesnt seem to be helping us much, there is more cancer and heart disease than ever before. Police are tasering the shit outta everyone and throwing non violent people in prison!!!! Im just talking about America, look at the world as a whole and tell me all the great things that governements have done for the human race....

Like Ive said several times in this thread to you, there are good things and bad things about these ideaologies but the good never seem to out weigh the bad. Why not try to actually fix the bad instead of patching up the problem.


You cant have peace in a world with an atom bomb. Its that simple buddy.

[wbreitman]

"You cant have peace in a world with an atom bomb. Its that simple buddy."

And the "atom bomb" and nuclear power aren't going away. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it can't be stuffed back in. That goes for any new technological/medical/electronic innovation/discovery/enhancement.

So ... are we doomed?

W

[someguy]

"You cant have peace in a world with an atom bomb. Its that simple buddy."

And the "atom bomb" and nuclear power aren't going away. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it can't be stuffed back in. That goes for any new technological/medical/electronic innovation/discovery/enhancement.

So ... are we doomed?

W

What do you mean by doomed? Apocalypse?

What I am saying is peace can not exist in a world with an atom bomb.

Nothing more.

Please think about that.

How can the human race be at peace when certain individuals and governments have the ability to obliterate nations at the drop of a bomb? How can anyone find peace in this kind of a world?

We are so focused on our own narrow point of view, our own personal experiences, that we fail to become aware of the entire problem. We say "oh the atom bomb it will protect us, whatta great thing". But we fail to see the problems the a bomb will pose later. (Like now with Iran.) We fail to see that having to a bomb separates us from other nations, and we (the US) use it to influence other countries policies and way of life, and we piss people off with it. It cause's big problems throughout the world.


The genie will eventually be stuffed in the bottle. The atom bomb will cease to exist at some point just like so many other things before it. And in that sense it will definitely be stuffed back in the bottle. But you are suggesting that right now the genie cant be stuffed back in the bottle. I would ask you why?

[wbreitman]

The genie can't be put back into the bottle because 'we' (humanity, nations, political entities) are not going to abandon atomic energy and put it "off limits.' And by 'genie," I mean the technology to create energy by means of nuclear fission using uranium. It's been done since 1945, and no amount of wishful thinking can undo this fact. Once we have the ability to create something, for good or evil, it will be created ... and used, whether it's atomic energy, human cloning, robots that can evolve, etc., etc., etc. For this not to happen, the human race would have to undergo a radical mutation, and I don't see that happening. What we can hope for is that we can work our way through these issues and somehow minimize the tribalism that infects us all. However, I'm not sanguine that "world peace" will ever be a reality, at least not until humanity has evolved in ways we cannot now imagine.

W

[someguy]

The genie can't be put back into the bottle because 'we' (humanity, nations, political entities) are not going to abandon atomic energy and put it "off limits.' And by 'genie," I mean the technology to create energy by means of nuclear fission using uranium. It's been done since 1945, and no amount of wishful thinking can undo this fact. Once we have the ability to create something, for good or evil, it will be created ... and used, whether it's atomic energy, human cloning, robots that can evolve, etc., etc., etc. For this not to happen, the human race would have to undergo a radical mutation, and I don't see that happening. What we can hope for is that we can work our way through these issues and somehow minimize the tribalism that infects us all. However, I'm not sanguine that "world peace" will ever be a reality, at least not until humanity has evolved in ways we cannot now imagine.

W

Well why can't we undergo a radical mutation? Why have you already dismissed the solution?

[undermilkyway2nite]

Do you remember the Jonestown massacre?

Ray was greedy and misguided...the perfect example of an IMPERFECT human being who others unfortunately blindly put their trust and lives in. A classic example of cult behavior!

[wbreitman]

Well why can't we undergo a radical mutation? Why have you already dismissed the solution?

Someguy,

I admire your strong belief (one might almost say religious conviction) in the 'perfectability' of the human race (or at least having the consciousness curve moving up and to the right irreversibly); however, I can't share your enthusiasm.

Why? Because human beings are animals: sentient, yes; rational (from time to time), but still animals, at the top of the primate pecking order (and some might argue that point as well). We are hardwired to be competitive, territorial, self- and family-protective, as well as nurturing and loving (in most instances). We are not Vulcans, nor will we ever be; we are emotional beings whose emotional responses are at least equally as important as our intellectual. While it is a beautiful vision to contemplate all people 'rationally' concluding that there should be peace, equality, justice, etc., etc. worldwide, it can't happen within the current framework of who we are and how we organize ourselves.

For a radical transformation of the human race to take place, we'd need a century of two of consistent and worldwide genetic manipulation to eliminate the 'messy bits' of DNA/RNA which cause us to behave as we do now and want what we do now. And I don't see that happening.

Having recently entered my eighth decade on this green orb, I might be seen as overly fatalistic; however, I don't believe it's the case. Sixty years ago, I was also a firm believer in the perfectability of mankind, didn't trust anyone over 30, and looked forward to the radical transformation of the society. While I remain an eternal optimist, I am realistic enough to understand that we will be lucky to survive ourselves, and I worry about the world my grandchildren will come of age in.

Much success to you in your endeavors, and I pray that your vision of mankind comes to fruition.

W

[Sara S]

I think that this mutation can happen without centuries of genetic manipulation being involved; using the Vajrayana Tibetan meditation practice, we can learn how to overcome that "hardwiring" which causes negative emotions to arise, and to walk the path of a bodhisattva: dedicating all of our actions to the liberation of all sentient beings. I'm sure not there yet, but I see that it can happen.


Someguy,

I admire your strong belief (one might almost say religious conviction) in the 'perfectability' of the human race (or at least having the consciousness curve moving up and to the right irreversibly); however, I can't share your enthusiasm.

Why? Because human beings are animals: sentient, yes; rational (from time to time), but still animals, at the top of the primate pecking order (and some might argue that point as well). We are hardwired to be competitive, territorial, self- and family-protective, as well as nurturing and loving (in most instances). We are not Vulcans, nor will we ever be; we are emotional beings whose emotional responses are at least equally as important as our intellectual. While it is a beautiful vision to contemplate all people 'rationally' concluding that there should be peace, equality, justice, etc., etc. worldwide, it can't happen within the current framework of who we are and how we organize ourselves.

For a radical transformation of the human race to take place, we'd need a century of two of consistent and worldwide genetic manipulation to eliminate the 'messy bits' of DNA/RNA which cause us to behave as we do now and want what we do now. And I don't see that happening.

Having recently entered my eighth decade on this green orb, I might be seen as overly fatalistic; however, I don't believe it's the case. Sixty years ago, I was also a firm believer in the perfectability of mankind, didn't trust anyone over 30, and looked forward to the radical transformation of the society. While I remain an eternal optimist, I am realistic enough to understand that we will be lucky to survive ourselves, and I worry about the world my grandchildren will come of age in.

Much success to you in your endeavors, and I pray that your vision of mankind comes to fruition.

W

[Shandi]

Obviously, you believe some things, as evidenced by your writing. Could you answer your own question "Why believe anything?"

My perception of your incongruity provides the information I need to dis-believe mostly anything that you would suggest.

And I'm sorry that your world isn't a positive one, and I believe with your perception it will continue to be just that.....because I believe that whatever you think is absolutely TRUE......for YOU!!!!

You do think, right?




The secret is just like any other system that claims to help people live a better life... ex: prayer, religion, meditation and so on. Do any of these systems, with the billions of believers and followers, over the thousands of years of practice, create positive living on this earth? I would say no.

Now if James Ray was utilizing the law of attraction for all these years, and it made him the success that he was, why would he need to become greedy in the first place?

Let's assume that for some unknown reason he gave into greed, even though he was getting everything he wanted through the law of attraction. Let's also assume that his greed (not the LOA) got him into the trouble he's in right now. Why is it that he can't just use the law of attraction to get out of his situation?

Remember , he is no amateur. He has used the law of attraction for many years, and he attributes most of his success to the law of attraction. He knows how to use it (if it exists).

I think this is a prime example of how the secret could not possibly work. You have a self professed user/guru of the secret being called a scumbag on television by Geraldo because he is responsible for the deaths of three individuals. This is not something that Ray had intended on. How could this be if the LOA is always working? No person would ever intend for this (to be facing prison, and having your reputation tarnished, and possibly losing all your money and freedom). Yet the LOA states clearly that Ray must have intended for this to happen because the LOA works whether you are aware of it or not.


I am shocked and baffled that people are not questioning the LOA more after reading about James Ray. It makes me think of when the Catholic Preists were molesting children. Me, being a non catholic thought, how in the world could anyone remain a catholic after knowing that these holy men were raping children??? But many catholics remained devout. Why? How do these catholics rationalize this type of behavior? They know its wrong, they know that the holy spirit is supposed to be very much with the preists. Would the holy spirit, the very thing these people pray to, aid a preist in raping a child? If so, why would you worship such a spirit? Its all so ridiculous.

Why would anyone take advice from James Ray? He has advised you to believe in the LOA, but why believe him? Why believe anything? What has belief done to better this world?

[Shandi]

It seems that one thing is for sure and that is this:

YOU can't have PEACE, with YOUR ATTITUDE! Sorry about that...
wish it were different, but I don't perceive anything peaceful about you.

But then, you don't believe peace is possible,
and therefore it's NOT....for YOU!

I don't believe that "world peace" is possible; that every human being would feel peaceful at some point in time. I do believe that peaceful feelings are possible in all of us, from time to time, some more than others.

No one needs to convince you of their feelings. And no one feels
anything consistently because feelings change. Sometimes I feel peaceful, and other times I feel upset or angry. I admit to being human, because at this point in my life, I'm not able to change that.

And consider the varying perceptions of what "peace" means to different people. Damn, there's that individual perception creeping in again.

It would be so much easier to be able to put everyone in one box, and label it. But hey, it's already been done....we're in a box labeled
"Human Beings on Planet Earth" Well, that's a start anyway.

We can always add more boxes, and label various groups of humans.......by race, color, creed, etc......
oh yeah, we already do that. Gee, how convenient!!

All you can do is continue to do what you do best......now, remind us again
what that is.




Umm... I assume you are talking about America. I asked you to look at the world as a whole.

Also you talk about education as a good thing, but you call americans dumb as retards in an article you just posted. Medicine doesnt seem to be helping us much, there is more cancer and heart disease than ever before. Police are tasering the shit outta everyone and throwing non violent people in prison!!!! Im just talking about America, look at the world as a whole and tell me all the great things that governements have done for the human race....

Like Ive said several times in this thread to you, there are good things and bad things about these ideaologies but the good never seem to out weigh the bad. Why not try to actually fix the bad instead of patching up the problem.


You cant have peace in a world with an atom bomb. Its that simple buddy.

[undermilkyway2nite]

It's not my intention to be offensive, but I think these most recent responses are a bit condescending and patronizing. Offering your opinion in such a manner does not serve your purpose of winning over detractors. Instead, it invites an argument as opposed to an open discussion or a friendly debate.

For example: "You do think, right?"

...just my two cents.


In Spirit,
barb :-)




Obviously, you believe some things, as evidenced by your writing. Could you answer your own question "Why believe anything?"

My perception of your incongruity provides the information I need to dis-believe mostly anything that you would suggest.

And I'm sorry that your world isn't a positive one, and I believe with your perception it will continue to be just that.....because I believe that whatever you think is absolutely TRUE......for YOU!!!!

You do think, right?

[undermilkyway2nite]

It's not my intention to be offensive, but I think these most recent responses are a bit condescending and patronizing. Offering your opinion in such a manner does not serve your purpose of winning over detractors. Instead, it invites an argument as opposed to an open discussion or a friendly debate.

For example:
"You do think, right?"
"All you can do is continue to do what you do best......now, remind us again
what that is."

In my opinion these statements do not serve to enlighten.

...just my two cents.


In Spirit,
barb :-)




Obviously, you believe some things, as evidenced by your writing. Could you answer your own question "Why believe anything?"

My perception of your incongruity provides the information I need to dis-believe mostly anything that you would suggest.

And I'm sorry that your world isn't a positive one, and I believe with your perception it will continue to be just that.....because I believe that whatever you think is absolutely TRUE......for YOU!!!!

You do think, right?

[kevinelf]

A few things to ponder:

1. Does anyone here know Ray ? or was at the sweat lodge ? - - mass media can hype or misrepresent a great many details - not to mention how money and ratings play into what is fed to the general public.

2. The original question: does the secret work ? Quite a few people seem to have used "the secret" to get what they want - but ultimately I have witnessed that any person with any true faith in any system of belief has the potential to manifest what he/or she wants in their lives.

3. Death is often looked at as a "bad thing" but we really don't know. Death to a caterpillar is becoming a butterfly - transformation of our body is inevitable.

I have used some of the principles of "the secret" and had some success - positive thoughts often bring positive results.


Peace
Kevin

[someguy]

Someguy,

I admire your strong belief (one might almost say religious conviction) in the 'perfectability' of the human race (or at least having the consciousness curve moving up and to the right irreversibly); however, I can't share your enthusiasm.

Why? Because human beings are animals: sentient, yes; rational (from time to time), but still animals, at the top of the primate pecking order (and some might argue that point as well). We are hardwired to be competitive, territorial, self- and family-protective, as well as nurturing and loving (in most instances). We are not Vulcans, nor will we ever be; we are emotional beings whose emotional responses are at least equally as important as our intellectual. While it is a beautiful vision to contemplate all people 'rationally' concluding that there should be peace, equality, justice, etc., etc. worldwide, it can't happen within the current framework of who we are and how we organize ourselves.

For a radical transformation of the human race to take place, we'd need a century of two of consistent and worldwide genetic manipulation to eliminate the 'messy bits' of DNA/RNA which cause us to behave as we do now and want what we do now. And I don't see that happening.

Having recently entered my eighth decade on this green orb, I might be seen as overly fatalistic; however, I don't believe it's the case. Sixty years ago, I was also a firm believer in the perfectability of mankind, didn't trust anyone over 30, and looked forward to the radical transformation of the society. While I remain an eternal optimist, I am realistic enough to understand that we will be lucky to survive ourselves, and I worry about the world my grandchildren will come of age in.

Much success to you in your endeavors, and I pray that your vision of mankind comes to fruition.

W

Hey W,

You know, Im not trying to change the world into some Utopian society or anything. I am not expecting a radical transformation in everyone or anyone else at all. But it is very important that we do point out and become aware of truth, and not just continually perpetuate beliefs and ideas that hinder truth.

Truth is static, it doesn't change with every new belief that gets thought up. And to call a belief truth is absurd. And to have a belief is absurd. That is a time proven fact. We have watched evangelicals speak in tongues and do all kinds of ridiculous things all for their belief in god. We have examined government officials and gurus pushing the same absurd crap over and over again, with no significant accomplishes made in the relationship between humans. There is still slavery, genocide, war, rape, and violence of all types. Religion and government have not and can not solve these basic problems that have plagued man since our evolution.

I'm telling you for a fact that belief and truth do not go hand and hand. All I can do is point that out to ya'll.

[someguy]

Obviously, you believe some things, as evidenced by your writing.

Show your evidence please.

[someguy]

whatever you think is absolutely TRUE......for YOU!!!!

You do think, right?

How can truth be different for everybody? Truth is truth, it can not be individualized.

Do I think?

[Shandi]

Just wanted to point out that unless there's "ONE" right way, there will be "division" by ideaology. Division itself is a natural outcome of our various perceptions and choices of what "we" think is the best way for "us", or who we believe to tell us what's "right" for us, and everyone else.

I grew up in the Catholic church, "the one true church" as I was told, with a leader (the pope) who was "infallible" in matters of the church....that is until he changed his mind about things like eating meat on Friday, when previously he had deemed it a serious sin. I had questions early on in my teens, when many things seemed "illogical". When I questioned these things I was told that I must "believe on faith".

I was excited to see the bumper sticker in the 60's "Question Authority", and it's been my guide ever since.

I don't believe that because we have various ideologies that is the cause of war. I think that the cause of war is basically
"INTOLERANCE" of various ideologies, beliefs, choices, actions" , fueled by anger, frustration, and greed.

I think that various actions (meditation, workshops, therapy, fasting, etc) have been helpful to many people all over the world, but that doesn't mean everyone on the planet has been helped. But maybe
we have,....and maybe we'd be in even worse shape without the positive thoughts and actions of various groups and individuals all over the planet.

Although I'm mostly optimistic, I personally don't believe that world peace is possible unless there was tolerance by every being for the individual choices of every other being. I think that would take a radical mutation that would change the human being as we know ourselves to be:

Being capable of a range of feelings from the most negative to the most positive.

Having the power to choose our thoughts, and therefore affect our feelings. And having the power to re-direct our thoughts through outside influence and/or inner guidance in choosing that outside influence. (books, movies, workshops, teachers, friends, etc.)

Having inner guidance that we may tune into, or not. I don't think
this is limited to human beings. But inner guidance in animals would probably be called instinct.

I think meditation is helpful as a way to slow us down from our busy lives, a way to rest. We can use this time any way we chose, with any intention. We don't have to do it a certain way; we don't even have to do it at all.

I enjoy this time of stillness, if only to slow me down in a world of chaos and confusion. I believe that I have a world within me that no one can take from me. We see evidence of this with prisoners of war and other victims of the "ONE WAY" gang. Books have been written by these survivors, and it all points to the ability to have one's own thoughts and beliefs, in the midst of horrible torture. They had the desire to survive, which I think is a basic human desire in emotionally healthy humans.

We seek joy, and when our lives are lived in "quiet desperation", we feel hopeless, and want a way to end the pain. Many of us have been there, and have come through to the other side, which is HOPE.

I wish everyone hope, because with hope we can move forward toward our choices in life, and joyful moments. Hope sustains us, and it's sad to see anyone lose it, because hopelessness can lead to suicide. It frees the hopeless person, but leaves loved ones behind....wondering if they could have done something to prevent it.

This is based on the perspective that suicide or death is "bad". Again, it's only a perception based on what we've learned. That life is preferable to death, and that's true for many of us.

But no one gets out of here alive, so let's start choosing our own path, and be tolerant of other's choices. More than likely we can't make them choose our way, except through force....and that's what I believe war is.




This is a reply to clancy's post with quotes from Clancy. SOrry for the confusion.



You could incorrectly say the same thing about anything at all.

You could say that anger and frustration are at the root of all wars and therefore human feelings do us no good. I would never say that frustration and anger are the root cause of war, but they are a symptom that arises when people are divided by ideaology such as the secret, or governments, or religion, or meditation, you get the idea. I say division does us no good and that is the root problem of all wars.

Or, you could say that since virtually all wars are organized affairs that political organizations have done us no good.What real good have political institutions brought the human race, (not just you)? why would you say that an organisation that brings us war does good?

They're all slightly absurd statements. [b]I understand that your statements seem absurd but I truly dont see my statement being absurd at all. "What I am saying is that none of these rituals , religions, meditations, organizations, and such, can ever bring any sort of true lasting benefit to human society".../B]

[someguy]

Just wanted to point out that unless there's "ONE" right way, there will be "division" by ideaology. Division itself is a natural outcome of our various perceptions and choices of what "we" think is the best way for "us", or who we believe to tell us what's "right" for us, and everyone else.

I grew up in the Catholic church, "the one true church" as I was told, with a leader (the pope) who was "infallible" in matters of the church....that is until he changed his mind about things like eating meat on Friday, when previously he had deemed it a serious sin. I had questions early on in my teens, when many things seemed "illogical". When I questioned these things I was told that I must "believe on faith".

I was excited to see the bumper sticker in the 60's "Question Authority", and it's been my guide ever since.

I don't believe that because we have various ideologies that is the cause of war. I think that the cause of war is basically
"INTOLERANCE" of various ideologies, beliefs, choices, actions" , fueled by anger, frustration, and greed.

I think that various actions (meditation, workshops, therapy, fasting, etc) have been helpful to many people all over the world, but that doesn't mean everyone on the planet has been helped. But maybe
we have,....and maybe we'd be in even worse shape without the positive thoughts and actions of various groups and individuals all over the planet.

Although I'm mostly optimistic, I personally don't believe that world peace is possible unless there was tolerance by every being for the individual choices of every other being. I think that would take a radical mutation that would change the human being as we know ourselves to be:

Being capable of a range of feelings from the most negative to the most positive.

Having the power to choose our thoughts, and therefore affect our feelings. And having the power to re-direct our thoughts through outside influence and/or inner guidance in choosing that outside influence. (books, movies, workshops, teachers, friends, etc.)

Having inner guidance that we may tune into, or not. I don't think
this is limited to human beings. But inner guidance in animals would probably be called instinct.

I think meditation is helpful as a way to slow us down from our busy lives, a way to rest. We can use this time any way we chose, with any intention. We don't have to do it a certain way; we don't even have to do it at all.

I enjoy this time of stillness, if only to slow me down in a world of chaos and confusion. I believe that I have a world within me that no one can take from me. We see evidence of this with prisoners of war and other victims of the "ONE WAY" gang. Books have been written by these survivors, and it all points to the ability to have one's own thoughts and beliefs, in the midst of horrible torture. They had the desire to survive, which I think is a basic human desire in emotionally healthy humans.

We seek joy, and when our lives are lived in "quiet desperation", we feel hopeless, and want a way to end the pain. Many of us have been there, and have come through to the other side, which is HOPE.

I wish everyone hope, because with hope we can move forward toward our choices in life, and joyful moments. Hope sustains us, and it's sad to see anyone lose it, because hopelessness can lead to suicide. It frees the hopeless person, but leaves loved ones behind....wondering if they could have done something to prevent it.

This is based on the perspective that suicide or death is "bad". Again, it's only a perception based on what we've learned. That life is preferable to death, and that's true for many of us.

But no one gets out of here alive, so let's start choosing our own path, and be tolerant of other's choices. More than likely we can't make them choose our way, except through force....and that's what I believe war is.






Thank you for peacefully participating.

[someguy]

YouTube - Did Positive Thinking Wreck the Economy? - Barbara Ehrenreich (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWfDm_bqwUU&feature=sub)

This is an interesting video that I thought fit well into this discussion. Enjoy.

[Shandi]

There are only a few truths that appear to be the same for everyone, gravity being one of those. I know that what is true for me isn't true for everyone.

Things would be a lot simpler if everyone believed the same things to be true.

Much of what we consider truth is subject to perception. Remember when it seemed true that the world was flat? What changed that "truth" , or was it not really a truth, (but a belief) just because most people "believed" it was?

It would be great if you could identify some "truths" that can not be individualized. It might help us to understand what you're trying to say.



How can truth be different for everybody? Truth is truth, it can not be individualized.

Do I think?

[Shandi]

Fortunately, we have a choice. Those that believe in negative thinking will continue to reap the rewards/consequences of that. And the same goes for those who believe that positive thinking brings more of what they want.

Maybe watching this will convince some that positive thinking isn't the best way to think, and they may decide that negative thinking might work better. It might be worth a try for those undecided thinkers, to see what happens.

Thank you for sharing this information. I think you're on the right track, and you'll attract what you want into your life by your choice of thinking.


YouTube - Did Positive Thinking Wreck the Economy? - Barbara Ehrenreich (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWfDm_bqwUU&feature=sub)

This is an interesting video that I thought fit well into this discussion. Enjoy.

[Shandi]

My friend, Marya Mann, who lived in Sonoma county for some time before moving to Kona Hawaii, had this information on her website, and I thought it might be interesting to share it here:


www.maryamann.com


Arvol Looking Horse, Sweat Lodges,


& the Power of Knowing Yourself

KONA, HI ~ When I was invited to do a sweat lodge with Lakota friends 20 years ago in Colorado, hefty black rocks were heated for several hours before the ceremony began. The steaming rocks were placed inside the lodge before participants entered in a clockwise direction, the lodge flap was closed, and the leader began praying and singing ancient songs while splashing water, cedar, and other herbs on the glowing rocks.



As the temperature rose, the heat and claustrophobia began to gnaw at my organs. We were reminded to drink water continuously to prevent dehydration and the sweat lodge door was opened four times during the ceremony, each time representing one of the four directions. When the door was opened, we were told, prayers were released and fresh air entered to rejuvenate us.



If we felt the sweat was becoming too hot for us, we were encouraged to exit the lodge and re-enter when another round was about to begin. Raising of heat in traditional ceremonies is a revered healing practice, and there is no reason to consider this ancient sacred rite dangerous unhealthy for most people.



That said, something went terribly wrong in Sedona last week.
My heart goes out to the leader Mr. James Arthur Ray and the families of three people who died after attending the sweat lodge portion of Ray’s Creating Harmonic Wealth Retreat in Sedona. It has sent shock waves through the Native, holistic health, and spiritual communities.



While no one knows yet for certain what went wrong, Joseph Bruchac, author of “The Native American Sweat Lodge: History and Legends,” called the number of participants in the lodge “appalling.” Most accounts report that 55-65 people were in the dome-like structure, which had a round pit dug into the center of the floor to contain the heated volcanic rocks.
“If you put people in a restrictive, airtight structure, you are going to use up all oxygen,” Mr. Bruchac said Saturday from his home in Saratoga Springs, N.Y. “And if you’re doing a sweat, you’re going to use it up that much faster.”





American Indian sweat lodges typically hold about 12 people and are covered with blankets made of natural materials, such as cotton or wool, and the air flow isn’t restricted. “I don’t see how the person running that lodge could have been aware of the health and well-being of that many people,” he said.


The participants had fasted for 36 hours as part of a personal and spiritual quest in the wilderness, then ate a breakfast buffet Thursday morning. After various seminars, they entered the sweat lodge lightly dressed at 3 p.m.





Two hours later, a woman dialed 911 to say that two people, 38-year old New Yorker Kirby Brown and 40-year-old James Shore of Milwaukee, did not have a pulse and weren’t breathing. According to a family spokesperson, Brown was an avid surfer and hiker who was “in top shape,” before the mysterious sweat lodge death.”




Apparently, the leader could not be aware of every person’s condition, which reminds us that we are responsible for ourselves. No matter who a teacher or leader of any ritual, ceremony, or event is, we need to be aware of our own bodies, set healthy boundaries, and say, “No, thank you,” when we feel pushed or persuaded to fulfill someone’s else’s idea of what’s good for us.




Much can be said for pushing oneself beyond perceived limits. You could say there are limits to our limits! Good teachers, doctors, healers, and artists can help us push beyond them, but the kind of health and sanity I want for myself, my family, my students, clients, and friends comes from listening to our own bodies, taking counsel with our own body and soul, and making wise, balanced choices.




While the mass media reported “Spiritual Retreat Homicides” and pulled no punches in sneering at the “New Age” as they tend to do, the Native response has been restrained but clear.”


“I am concerned for the two (three) deaths and illnesses of the many people that participated in the sweat lodge in Sedona, Arizona,” said Arvol Looking Horse, a 19th-generation keeper of the sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe, “That brought our sacred rite under fire in the news. I would like to clarify that this lodge and many others, are not our ceremonial way of life. My prayers go out for their families and loved ones for their loss.”





In 2006, Looking Horse received the Juliet Hollister Award for promoting peace and interfaith and secular understanding by the Temple of Understanding, joining past recipients Nelson Mandela, Ravi Shankar and the Dalai Lama.


Looking Horse says that while non-Native people have a right to seek help from First Nations intercessors, traditional Native sweats are spiritual and the idea of charging for them is anathema. “It appears that once again greed interfered with common sense,” read an editorial in the Buffalo Post.


The “so-called” sweat, was part of a five-day retreat costing each person almost $10,000, bringing nearly $600,000 into Mr. Ray’s organization. After the tragic events, with nearly 20 of his students and followers still in the hospital, Mr. Ray apparently left on a plane for California, making it hard to believe he was more interested in their spiritual awakening than their money.



The happy ending to this story is that we are reminded of the power of knowing ourselves. We are at choice in every moment of life, and making the right choices may well be a matter of life or death.

[someguy]

.

Much of what we consider truth is subject to perception. Remember when it seemed true that the world was flat? What changed that "truth" , or was it not really a truth, (but a belief) just because most people "believed" it was?




Ok, if it were true that truth could be individualized then If I were to believe that the earth is flat would it be so for me? Would it change the truth that the world is round somehow?

This is the inherent problem with belief. Belief divides you from all truth. You just made that very clear when you made the flat earth analogy, that the belief of a flat earth blinded the people's understanding of truth.

And regardless of whether you agree or not, it creates problems when people try to act on their beliefs instead of truth. It doesn't matter what the belief is. Belief is inherently divisive.

The earth has always been round, even when the "Flatters" believed it was flat. What better point can I make than that?

The earth will be round regardless of how many people believe its flat. Belief will divide men and women regardless of how many people think it will bring unity.


Truths for everybody:

Everybody gets old
everybody dies,
everybody has a self preservation instinct, sexual instinct, and social instinct,
the seasons always change,
everything is constantly changing,
everyone has an ego,
information and knowledge are always limited,
everyone experiences suffering, pain, fear, happiness, joy, pleasure, etc...
evolution,
everyone has a personality type
everyone is unique
everyone has problems

There are so many...... My goodness....

Can you name a few truths that can be individualized please?

Im not talking like "oh hair gel works for me and not for my mom." That's a personal preference, and something that makes you unique.

[Shandi]

I agree that those things you listed are true for us. It really helps to be specific with words.
And I don't see anyone discussing their perceptions on any of these "truths".

I'm wondering what you mean when you say "it creates problems when people try to act on their beliefs instead of truth." Which of my beliefs might create problems for all of us?

If I believed that I'd never get old, die, or that the seasons are never changing, how would that create problems for others?

If I believed that I didn't have an ego, or that I wasn't unique, how would that create problems?

I was speaking to the diversity of "beliefs" not to the diversity of "truths".

Part of the problem that happens in communication is that the individuals don't agree on what certain words mean. We assume that there's a general knowledge about what words mean, but that again is unfortunately subject to interpretation or perception.

This may be especially challenging among different cultures or people of diverse education. If I've never heard a word before, and someone is using it in communicating to me, I might have to stop them and ask what it means, so that we have a base of understanding to continue our dialogue.

Now I know what you mean by "truths", and I understand that part. I just don't understand how my acting on my personal preferences affects you, unless I was swinging my arms around, and you happened to be in my swinging space, and accidentally got swatted.

I don't even know how my personal beliefs affect you or anyone else. Yours don't affect me, unless I'm trying to understand them. I'd venture to say that I have a lot of beliefs that don't affect you at all, except if you're trying to control me. I think if you knew some of them, you'd be pretty angry. So, I'll just keep them to myself, so you can be at peace, not knowing them.

One of my beliefs is that each of us has a right to our own thoughts, beliefs, and preferences, and that problems come from others trying to control those by force or manipulation.

We can feel helpless against someone using force on us to influence our beliefs, but ultimately even force cannot touch our beliefs. We have seen many people die tortured for their beliefs because they were different from the torturer's. People can be pretty intolerant and angry when it comes to diversity of thoughts, beliefs, and feelings.

But this is our world, planet earth....one of extreme diversity on so many levels. I find it interesting, rather than a terrible thing.

Your statement:
"This is the inherent problem with belief. Belief divides you from all truth."

Belief is not truth, and truth is not belief. I see no problem inherent with belief. And belief isn't able to change one true thing, so it can't divide me from the truth that I will die, even if I belief with my last breath, that there is no death. It will not divide me from the truth of death, but I have a right to believe in everlasting life if I choose to.

As I said before I've never met anyone who didn't have certain beliefs about a variety of things, and I've even seen people change what they believe, based on some new experience or learning.

But if you say you don't believe anything, I believe you!!


Ok, if it were true that truth could be individualized then If I were to believe that the earth is flat would it be so for me? Would it change the truth that the world is round somehow?

This is the inherent problem with belief. Belief divides you from all truth. You just made that very clear when you made the flat earth analogy, that the belief of a flat earth blinded the people's understanding of truth.

And regardless of whether you agree or not, it creates problems when people try to act on their beliefs instead of truth. It doesn't matter what the belief is. Belief is inherently divisive.

The earth has always been round, even when the "Flatters" believed it was flat. What better point can I make than that?

The earth will be round regardless of how many people believe its flat. Belief will divide men and women regardless of how many people think it will bring unity.


Truths for everybody:

Everybody gets old
everybody dies,
everybody has a self preservation instinct, sexual instinct, and social instinct,
the seasons always change,
everything is constantly changing,
everyone has an ego,
information and knowledge are always limited,
everyone experiences suffering, pain, fear, happiness, joy, pleasure, etc...
evolution,
everyone has a personality type
everyone is unique
everyone has problems

There are so many...... My goodness....

Can you name a few truths that can be individualized please?

Im not talking like "oh hair gel works for me and not for my mom." That's a personal preference, and something that makes you unique.

[someguy]

I agree that those things you listed are true for us. It really helps to be specific with words.
And I don't see anyone discussing their perceptions on any of these "truths".

I'm wondering what you mean when you say "it creates problems when people try to act on their beliefs instead of truth." Which of my beliefs might create problems for all of us?

If I believed that I'd never get old, die, or that the seasons are never changing, how would that create problems for others?

If I believed that I didn't have an ego, or that I wasn't unique, how would that create problems?



If you believed that you'd never get old, and die you would act a whole lot differently wouldn't you? You'd probably act very inappropriate for a human being that will get old and die. Can you imagine how a person would act if they had no concept of death? You would also be in conflict with the rest of the world who says that you will die and get old eventually.

How about the seasons? If you thought they didnt exist that would create a big problem. You would be a burden on society. Especially if you were one of the billions of people born into an agricultural family. Maybe you would have children and convince them of your nonsense. And you and your children being surrounded by disbelievers would become fearful and preachy. Eventually you'd be ostracized by your community. History has proven this to be the case. When people develop beliefs, they usually form organisations/relationships to uphold those beliefs and pass them on. These believers, knowing that they have poor logic, are also very fearful of any intrusion upon those beliefs, and therefore act inappropriately. Just like any major religion you can name.


I understand where you are coming from thinking that only your thoughts effect you. But that is so not true. We are connected through our consciousness. Your thoughts and actions indirectly and sometimes maybe directly effect me and lots of people daily. And divisive ideaology plays a large and often times a subtle role in our everyday lives. From the people we talk to at the store, to the way our society is framed. On one hand people can have whatever beliefs they want. That is there personal whatever. But on the other hand people's actions effect other people! And confusing yourself with ideologies that mask truth just makes people's actions worse.

But still can you name some individualized truths please?????

Can you tell me how the victims of tsunamis and the infamous sweat lodge attracted their fate? (That is what the secret says)

Can you tell me how the secret can be true, if for every action there exists an equal an opposite reaction? For if the secret were true, then everyone could get everything they wanted, but that means we need unlimited resources and energy working for us at all times. If everyone could get everything, then where would the opposite reaction go? Who would get nothing? Because it is a fact for every action there is an equal an opposite reaction.

[Shandi]

You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about your every thought, word, and feeling. See, like I said before "Your way is the RIGHT WAY" Unfortunately, you aren't able to get everyone in the world or even the Wacco community to come on over to your way of thinking, but I can sure appreciate your effort. It seems important to you, so keep on trying.

Though I'm out of this word game with you; and I admit that because of my beliefs I may be in conflict with a large majority of people in the world, for various reasons. But I choose to be who I am, and you are doing the same. I'm so thankful that you and I have the personal freedom to choose our thoughts and beliefs. Although I understand that you don't have any beliefs.



If you believed that you'd never get old, and die you would act a whole lot differently wouldn't you? You'd probably act very inappropriate for a human being that will get old and die. Can you imagine how a person would act if they had no concept of death? You would also be in conflict with the rest of the world who says that you will die and get old eventually.

How about the seasons? If you thought they didnt exist that would create a big problem. You would be a burden on society. Especially if you were one of the billions of people born into an agricultural family. Maybe you would have children and convince them of your nonsense. And you and your children being surrounded by disbelievers would become fearful and preachy. Eventually you'd be ostracized by your community. History has proven this to be the case. When people develop beliefs, they usually form organisations/relationships to uphold those beliefs and pass them on. These believers, knowing that they have poor logic, are also very fearful of any intrusion upon those beliefs, and therefore act inappropriately. Just like any major religion you can name.


I understand where you are coming from thinking that only your thoughts effect you. But that is so not true. We are connected through our consciousness. Your thoughts and actions indirectly and sometimes maybe directly effect me and lots of people daily. And divisive ideaology plays a large and often times a subtle role in our everyday lives. From the people we talk to at the store, to the way our society is framed. On one hand people can have whatever beliefs they want. That is there personal whatever. But on the other hand people's actions effect other people! And confusing yourself with ideologies that mask truth just makes people's actions worse.

But still can you name some individualized truths please?????

Can you tell me how the victims of tsunamis and the infamous sweat lodge attracted their fate? (That is what the secret says)

Can you tell me how the secret can be true, if for every action there exists an equal an opposite reaction? For if the secret were true, then everyone could get everything they wanted, but that means we need unlimited resources and energy working for us at all times. If everyone could get everything, then where would the opposite reaction go? Who would get nothing? Because it is a fact for every action there is an equal an opposite reaction.

[jbox]

This thread about the "secret" or "truth" reminds me of a great quote from one of the perceptive writers ever to grace our literary landscape, Mark Twain. Referring to "faith" Twain said "Faith is believing in something you know just ain't so."

[Clancy]

I was surprised at this attribution too, so I did a little googling.

In Following the Equator, Mark Twain wrote, “Yet it was the schoolboy who said, "Faith is believing what you know ain’t so."

So Twain is describing a child's view of faith, not his own.


So when did you hear Mark Twain say that?
I suspect you trust, from accounts that others wrote, that he said that.
Trust I think is a very short jump to faith.
Also your quote is from America's greatest satirist. So how do you think he really felt about faith?

[Clancy]

I've found the context of the quote, and it looks like Twain respected the schoolboy's position.

'There are those who scoff at the schoolboy, calling him frivolous and shallow: Yet it was the schoolboy who said "Faith is believing what you know ain't so." '

- Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar.

Here's the whole chapter if you're interested;
Following The Equator by Mark Twain 11 (https://www.classicbookshelf.com/library/mark_twain/following_the_equator/11/)

I was surprised at this attribution too, so I did a little googling.

In Following the Equator, Mark Twain wrote, “Yet it was the schoolboy who said, "Faith is believing what you know ain’t so."

So Twain is describing a child's view of faith, not his own.

["Mad" Miles]

If you're interested in Samuel Clemens' (aka Mark Twain) views on faith, god and religion, I recommend his Letters to Earth (? I think, I'm recalling from distant memory, but it is a title like that if I'm not exact, just check out his list of publications). If I recall correctly he was no fan of faith (in the sense of religious belief) and was pretty much an atheist. In a period when it was quite unpopular to be an avowed one.

By the by, while I am sympathetic to atheism, I'm not a believer. I suppose technically I'm an agnostic. But in reality it's not a question I spend much time on. I have a "wait and see" attitude. I'm very fond of the sentiments in Iris Dement's song, "Let The Mystery Be".

I do encounter expressions of religious faith in my job teaching in prison. When I am told, "God Bless You", by a student, I usually reply, "Thank you".

Regarding Truth vs. Belief. I recommend defining terms and being specific. The truths of physical laws are not equivalent to the truths having to do with social issues. While gravity is not subject to interpretation, questions of freedom, justice, etc. are.

Cheers,

"Mad" Miles

:burngrnbounce:

[jbox]

I was surprised at this attribution too, so I did a little googling.

In Following the Equator, Mark Twain wrote, “Yet it was the schoolboy who said, "Faith is believing what you know ain’t so."

So Twain is describing a child's view of faith, not his own.


Twain often used the perspectives of children to illustrate innocent, unvarnished views of life and the human condition, and as such they I believe they reflected his own beliefs. Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn were sympathetic and wise characters, somewhat ahead of their time in some areas such as race relations. Generally I don't think Twain was sympathetic to religion, great skepticism seems more in line with his thinking, like the schoolboy.