Sara S
09-14-2009, 09:29 AM
What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist. -Salman Rushdie, writer (b. 1947)
View Full Version : Freedom of expression
tomcat
09-14-2009, 02:34 PM
Hummmmm,,, Well, gosh, Good question! Salman does have a interesting point there. of course, he may have been talking more about art than speech.
But WHERE that freedom should be expressed is a good question also.
I believe that Barry has told us that we do NOT have freedom of speech here on the WaccoBoard, but that we are free to express ourselves, in a civil way...
I think sometimes people take offense when there was none intended and others do not when it was... and then there are those who are just downright offensive.
I guess there are plenty of places they are free to be that way.
What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist. -Salman Rushdie, writer (b. 1947)
But WHERE that freedom should be expressed is a good question also.
I believe that Barry has told us that we do NOT have freedom of speech here on the WaccoBoard, but that we are free to express ourselves, in a civil way...
I think sometimes people take offense when there was none intended and others do not when it was... and then there are those who are just downright offensive.
I guess there are plenty of places they are free to be that way.
What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist. -Salman Rushdie, writer (b. 1947)
Tars
09-15-2009, 08:28 PM
I think sometimes people take offense when there was none intended and others do not when it was... and then there are those who are just downright offensive.
Online discussion experience thickens the hide. Most people who get upset, and/or think other posters are attacking them personally, are usually less-experienced. Irony can be difficult. There aren't the visual or vocal cues that folks are used to, which tell them that the person posting is trying to be ironic. Conversely, many posters intend to be ironic, but give no written clues to communicate that they're doing so.
Less experienced posters may be very sensitive about giving their opinion, and end up being a bit over-defensive about it. They just have to thicken their hides, or go do something else which is less threatening,
Then there are the people (usually inexperienced, not troll sick-puppies) who say obnoxious things or call names, thinking they'll be taken lightly.
After they've been called a Nazi or a liar, or told they're stupid a few times themselves, they usually tend to mellow about it, or acquire enough experience that they don't get their feathers ruffled immediately.
Last and leastly there're trolls, who have personal issues which compel them to be rude and obnoxious. They are fairly obvious after a few posts. They won't change. At most they'll try to change identity. Best to ignore them, and if they keep on obnoxiating all over everything, put 'em on the ignore list.
Online discussion experience thickens the hide. Most people who get upset, and/or think other posters are attacking them personally, are usually less-experienced. Irony can be difficult. There aren't the visual or vocal cues that folks are used to, which tell them that the person posting is trying to be ironic. Conversely, many posters intend to be ironic, but give no written clues to communicate that they're doing so.
Less experienced posters may be very sensitive about giving their opinion, and end up being a bit over-defensive about it. They just have to thicken their hides, or go do something else which is less threatening,
Then there are the people (usually inexperienced, not troll sick-puppies) who say obnoxious things or call names, thinking they'll be taken lightly.
After they've been called a Nazi or a liar, or told they're stupid a few times themselves, they usually tend to mellow about it, or acquire enough experience that they don't get their feathers ruffled immediately.
Last and leastly there're trolls, who have personal issues which compel them to be rude and obnoxious. They are fairly obvious after a few posts. They won't change. At most they'll try to change identity. Best to ignore them, and if they keep on obnoxiating all over everything, put 'em on the ignore list.
Sara S
09-16-2009, 06:11 AM
All true, and I especially love "obnoxiating"!
Online discussion experience thickens the hide. Most people who get upset, and/or think other posters are attacking them personally, are usually less-experienced. Irony can be difficult. There aren't the visual or vocal cues that folks are used to, which tell them that the person posting is trying to be ironic. Conversely, many posters intend to be ironic, but give no written clues to communicate that they're doing so.
Less experienced posters may be very sensitive about giving their opinion, and end up being a bit over-defensive about it. They just have to thicken their hides, or go do something else which is less threatening,
Then there are the people (usually inexperienced, not troll sick-puppies) who say obnoxious things or call names, thinking they'll be taken lightly.
After they've been called a Nazi or a liar, or told they're stupid a few times themselves, they usually tend to mellow about it, or acquire enough experience that they don't get their feathers ruffled immediately.
Last and leastly there're trolls, who have personal issues which compel them to be rude and obnoxious. They are fairly obvious after a few posts. They won't change. At most they'll try to change identity. Best to ignore them, and if they keep on obnoxiating all over everything, put 'em on the ignore list.
Online discussion experience thickens the hide. Most people who get upset, and/or think other posters are attacking them personally, are usually less-experienced. Irony can be difficult. There aren't the visual or vocal cues that folks are used to, which tell them that the person posting is trying to be ironic. Conversely, many posters intend to be ironic, but give no written clues to communicate that they're doing so.
Less experienced posters may be very sensitive about giving their opinion, and end up being a bit over-defensive about it. They just have to thicken their hides, or go do something else which is less threatening,
Then there are the people (usually inexperienced, not troll sick-puppies) who say obnoxious things or call names, thinking they'll be taken lightly.
After they've been called a Nazi or a liar, or told they're stupid a few times themselves, they usually tend to mellow about it, or acquire enough experience that they don't get their feathers ruffled immediately.
Last and leastly there're trolls, who have personal issues which compel them to be rude and obnoxious. They are fairly obvious after a few posts. They won't change. At most they'll try to change identity. Best to ignore them, and if they keep on obnoxiating all over everything, put 'em on the ignore list.
justme
09-16-2009, 05:24 PM
Online discussion experience thickens the hide. Most people who get upset, and/or think other posters are attacking them personally, are usually less-experienced. Irony can be difficult. There aren't the visual or vocal cues that folks are used to, which tell them that the person posting is trying to be ironic. Conversely, many posters intend to be ironic, but give no written clues to communicate that they're doing so.
Less experienced posters may be very sensitive about giving their opinion, and end up being a bit over-defensive about it. They just have to thicken their hides, or go do something else which is less threatening,
Then there are the people (usually inexperienced, not troll sick-puppies) who say obnoxious things or call names, thinking they'll be taken lightly.
After they've been called a Nazi or a liar, or told they're stupid a few times themselves, they usually tend to mellow about it, or acquire enough experience that they don't get their feathers ruffled immediately.
Last and leastly there're trolls, who have personal issues which compel them to be rude and obnoxious. They are fairly obvious after a few posts. They won't change. At most they'll try to change identity. Best to ignore them, and if they keep on obnoxiating all over everything, put 'em on the ignore list.
Thanks Tars.... I didn't realize we were so easy to categorize, judge, name, our experieence in posting scrutinized and sentenced.. I do love this quote best of all from your post...
"Then there are the people (usually inexperienced, not troll sick-puppies) who say obnoxious things or call names, thinking they'll be taken lightly.
After they've been called a Nazi or a liar, or told they're stupid a few times themselves, they usually tend to mellow about it, or acquire enough experience that they don't get their feathers ruffled immediately."
Ok so let me get this straight.... As an example....."I say an obnoxious thing or call you a name....That makes me inexperienced..... You call me a Nazi or a liar or stupid, you are experienced and then I am supposed to mellow out and not get my feathers ruffled?
Uh sorry but I just don't get it.......Maybe trolls are ok after all... At least we can be ignored and still speak.....:rofl2:
Less experienced posters may be very sensitive about giving their opinion, and end up being a bit over-defensive about it. They just have to thicken their hides, or go do something else which is less threatening,
Then there are the people (usually inexperienced, not troll sick-puppies) who say obnoxious things or call names, thinking they'll be taken lightly.
After they've been called a Nazi or a liar, or told they're stupid a few times themselves, they usually tend to mellow about it, or acquire enough experience that they don't get their feathers ruffled immediately.
Last and leastly there're trolls, who have personal issues which compel them to be rude and obnoxious. They are fairly obvious after a few posts. They won't change. At most they'll try to change identity. Best to ignore them, and if they keep on obnoxiating all over everything, put 'em on the ignore list.
Thanks Tars.... I didn't realize we were so easy to categorize, judge, name, our experieence in posting scrutinized and sentenced.. I do love this quote best of all from your post...
"Then there are the people (usually inexperienced, not troll sick-puppies) who say obnoxious things or call names, thinking they'll be taken lightly.
After they've been called a Nazi or a liar, or told they're stupid a few times themselves, they usually tend to mellow about it, or acquire enough experience that they don't get their feathers ruffled immediately."
Ok so let me get this straight.... As an example....."I say an obnoxious thing or call you a name....That makes me inexperienced..... You call me a Nazi or a liar or stupid, you are experienced and then I am supposed to mellow out and not get my feathers ruffled?
Uh sorry but I just don't get it.......Maybe trolls are ok after all... At least we can be ignored and still speak.....:rofl2:
Tars
09-17-2009, 07:10 AM
Is that really the means by which you make your point, or stop others from disagreeing? I guess it is possible that there are other scenarios that I have missed, but I suspect they would be variations of these two. Am I the only one who feels that the term nazi is being bandied about carelessly, devaluing the real horror of the real nazis?
Maybe I misunderstand your post - you think I'm saying that anyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi? It's not clear. So noone can mis-interpret what I said, either intentionally or not, I don't think anyone is a Nazi, nor would I denigrate anyone as being stupid or a liar.
No, I used examples of rudeness that I've experienced myself, on these forums and others. I myself have been described as a Nazi, or of lying. or being stupid. I used them as examples of what a poster may experience.
Experience and practice usually adds skill; in the case of online forums one hopes that the skills acquired are in the ability to practice diplomacy. When I see posters respond to someone's stated opinion by attacking the person, it tells me that they are either unskilled in conversation, usually by lack of discussion experience, or, at the other end of the scale, in the case of trolls, they have emotional issues which compel them to act obnoxiously.
Some posters, usually those who are newer at it, mistake differing opinions in response to their posts, as personal attacks on themselves. Far more often than not, this isn't the case. With more experience, they usually come to realize this, they don't get as upset as often, and they learn how to deal with the range of entity types they encounter.
Maybe I misunderstand your post - you think I'm saying that anyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi? It's not clear. So noone can mis-interpret what I said, either intentionally or not, I don't think anyone is a Nazi, nor would I denigrate anyone as being stupid or a liar.
No, I used examples of rudeness that I've experienced myself, on these forums and others. I myself have been described as a Nazi, or of lying. or being stupid. I used them as examples of what a poster may experience.
Experience and practice usually adds skill; in the case of online forums one hopes that the skills acquired are in the ability to practice diplomacy. When I see posters respond to someone's stated opinion by attacking the person, it tells me that they are either unskilled in conversation, usually by lack of discussion experience, or, at the other end of the scale, in the case of trolls, they have emotional issues which compel them to act obnoxiously.
Some posters, usually those who are newer at it, mistake differing opinions in response to their posts, as personal attacks on themselves. Far more often than not, this isn't the case. With more experience, they usually come to realize this, they don't get as upset as often, and they learn how to deal with the range of entity types they encounter.
Yubajeff
09-17-2009, 12:58 PM
A Modest Proposal seems appropriate here.
I recently came across this survey: Would you vote Obama For President again? I voted no.
However, I would like to endorse him as King, or Supreme Ruler of the country. I would like to give him unlimited power to rule. You may call this fascism of a sort. But we just can not continue to be ruled by committee. It just hasn't been working. The Congress is nothing more than an large committee (of lawyers, no less!). The Supreme Court is also a committee, by and large. So I propose we return to a form of government that is more efficient, and certainly more compassionate, then our present system. Obama is still in my view the best man for the job (other than myself, of course, but who needs such troubles?!) You all know the definition of insanity: to persist in doing something the same way when it isn't working. This Democracy thing just isn't working out, I'm afraid. We are nowhere near world peace, a stable economy, a compassionate government, an intelligent management of our resources. We just have to submit.
We really do. I am not joking here.
Love,
Jeffree
I recently came across this survey: Would you vote Obama For President again? I voted no.
However, I would like to endorse him as King, or Supreme Ruler of the country. I would like to give him unlimited power to rule. You may call this fascism of a sort. But we just can not continue to be ruled by committee. It just hasn't been working. The Congress is nothing more than an large committee (of lawyers, no less!). The Supreme Court is also a committee, by and large. So I propose we return to a form of government that is more efficient, and certainly more compassionate, then our present system. Obama is still in my view the best man for the job (other than myself, of course, but who needs such troubles?!) You all know the definition of insanity: to persist in doing something the same way when it isn't working. This Democracy thing just isn't working out, I'm afraid. We are nowhere near world peace, a stable economy, a compassionate government, an intelligent management of our resources. We just have to submit.
We really do. I am not joking here.
Love,
Jeffree
Hotspring 44
09-17-2009, 04:01 PM
A Modest Proposal seems appropriate here.
I recently came across this survey: Would you vote Obama For President again? I voted no.
However, I would like to endorse him as King, or Supreme Ruler of the country. I would like to give him unlimited power to rule. You may call this fascism of a sort. But we just can not continue to be ruled by committee. It just hasn't been working. The Congress is nothing more than an large committee (of lawyers, no less!). The Supreme Court is also a committee, by and large. So I propose we return to a form of government that is more efficient, and certainly more compassionate, then our present system. Obama is still in my view the best man for the job (other than myself, of course, but who needs such troubles?!) You all know the definition of insanity: to persist in doing something the same way when it isn't working. This Democracy thing just isn't working out, I'm afraid. We are nowhere near world peace, a stable economy, a compassionate government, an intelligent management of our resources. We just have to submit.
We really do. I am not joking here.
Love,
Jeffree
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I say, Get rid of “Corporate Personhood (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Personhood)” instead of that.
Dictators, supreme rulers, etc. just get overthrown at the expense of many lives within that region of control.
Besides that there is a better pick then Obama in the first place. What about Dennis Kucinich or Ralph Nader, or somebody like that?
I'm not so sure about Ralph Nader anymore; he's getting kind of old, but Dennis Kucinich is not as willing to compromise as Obama seems to be.
To be a successful supreme dictatorial leader, one should not be so willing and easy-going to make a compromise as easily as Obama has. But on the other hand, one would have to make “deals” with some pretty nasty characters to keep in power, wouldn't one?
BTW, that is not such a modest proposal! I thought it might be tongue-in-cheek, but you said, the term “not joking” at the end of your statement; so I now I'm not so sure whether or not you meant to be "I am not joking here". (and you approve of fascism of what appears to me to be desperation). or if like me, you realize that it won't happen in our lifetimes, one way or the other and you care more about the environment, which I believe would probably get more destroyed rather than repaired if something like that that did happen with such a powerful industrial military complex involved.
Anyway, this seems to be off-topic so I am going to stop here. Maybe the subject will pop up somewhere in another thread and at that point I might have something more to say about that in more detail. Except that, “Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.”Oh, and another thing; off with their heads! I'm only kidding about that. a little tongue-in-cheek doesn't hurt every now and then; LOL!:Biggrin:
Oops! :sorry: (sorry) for the incorrect wording on the first post that was generated and ended up in e-mails (for) those that have their settings like I do. This is re-posted, edited, and a little bit corrected from the original. :whistle:
<o:p> </o:p>
Hotspring 44.
I recently came across this survey: Would you vote Obama For President again? I voted no.
However, I would like to endorse him as King, or Supreme Ruler of the country. I would like to give him unlimited power to rule. You may call this fascism of a sort. But we just can not continue to be ruled by committee. It just hasn't been working. The Congress is nothing more than an large committee (of lawyers, no less!). The Supreme Court is also a committee, by and large. So I propose we return to a form of government that is more efficient, and certainly more compassionate, then our present system. Obama is still in my view the best man for the job (other than myself, of course, but who needs such troubles?!) You all know the definition of insanity: to persist in doing something the same way when it isn't working. This Democracy thing just isn't working out, I'm afraid. We are nowhere near world peace, a stable economy, a compassionate government, an intelligent management of our resources. We just have to submit.
We really do. I am not joking here.
Love,
Jeffree
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I say, Get rid of “Corporate Personhood (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Personhood)” instead of that.
Dictators, supreme rulers, etc. just get overthrown at the expense of many lives within that region of control.
Besides that there is a better pick then Obama in the first place. What about Dennis Kucinich or Ralph Nader, or somebody like that?
I'm not so sure about Ralph Nader anymore; he's getting kind of old, but Dennis Kucinich is not as willing to compromise as Obama seems to be.
To be a successful supreme dictatorial leader, one should not be so willing and easy-going to make a compromise as easily as Obama has. But on the other hand, one would have to make “deals” with some pretty nasty characters to keep in power, wouldn't one?
BTW, that is not such a modest proposal! I thought it might be tongue-in-cheek, but you said, the term “not joking” at the end of your statement; so I now I'm not so sure whether or not you meant to be "I am not joking here". (and you approve of fascism of what appears to me to be desperation). or if like me, you realize that it won't happen in our lifetimes, one way or the other and you care more about the environment, which I believe would probably get more destroyed rather than repaired if something like that that did happen with such a powerful industrial military complex involved.
Anyway, this seems to be off-topic so I am going to stop here. Maybe the subject will pop up somewhere in another thread and at that point I might have something more to say about that in more detail. Except that, “Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.”Oh, and another thing; off with their heads! I'm only kidding about that. a little tongue-in-cheek doesn't hurt every now and then; LOL!:Biggrin:
Oops! :sorry: (sorry) for the incorrect wording on the first post that was generated and ended up in e-mails (for) those that have their settings like I do. This is re-posted, edited, and a little bit corrected from the original. :whistle:
<o:p> </o:p>
Hotspring 44.
tomcat
09-17-2009, 04:05 PM
Well, Yubajeff, your post is an example of 'freedom of expression', but in my mind, not a discussion of it. But that's cool.
As for your take on Democracy, I don't recall that it's goal is to end up with "world peace, a stable economy, a compassionate government, an intelligent management of our resources."
I believe that it's goal is to do what the majority wants, or at least those with the most money... in the case of USA style Democracy. That's where it gets sick, with the majority of the people, not the Democracy. (IMHO)
A Modest Proposal seems appropriate here.
I recently came across this survey: Would you vote Obama For President again? I voted no.
However, I would like to endorse him as King, or Supreme Ruler of the country. I would like to give him unlimited power to rule. You may call this fascism of a sort. But we just can not continue to be ruled by committee. It just hasn't been working. The Congress is nothing more than an large committee (of lawyers, no less!). The Supreme Court is also a committee, by and large. So I propose we return to a form of government that is more efficient, and certainly more compassionate, then our present system. Obama is still in my view the best man for the job (other than myself, of course, but who needs such troubles?!) You all know the definition of insanity: to persist in doing something the same way when it isn't working. This Democracy thing just isn't working out, I'm afraid. We are nowhere near world peace, a stable economy, a compassionate government, an intelligent management of our resources. We just have to submit.
We really do. I am not joking here.
Love,
Jeffree
As for your take on Democracy, I don't recall that it's goal is to end up with "world peace, a stable economy, a compassionate government, an intelligent management of our resources."
I believe that it's goal is to do what the majority wants, or at least those with the most money... in the case of USA style Democracy. That's where it gets sick, with the majority of the people, not the Democracy. (IMHO)
A Modest Proposal seems appropriate here.
I recently came across this survey: Would you vote Obama For President again? I voted no.
However, I would like to endorse him as King, or Supreme Ruler of the country. I would like to give him unlimited power to rule. You may call this fascism of a sort. But we just can not continue to be ruled by committee. It just hasn't been working. The Congress is nothing more than an large committee (of lawyers, no less!). The Supreme Court is also a committee, by and large. So I propose we return to a form of government that is more efficient, and certainly more compassionate, then our present system. Obama is still in my view the best man for the job (other than myself, of course, but who needs such troubles?!) You all know the definition of insanity: to persist in doing something the same way when it isn't working. This Democracy thing just isn't working out, I'm afraid. We are nowhere near world peace, a stable economy, a compassionate government, an intelligent management of our resources. We just have to submit.
We really do. I am not joking here.
Love,
Jeffree
cdegenhardt
09-17-2009, 07:08 PM
Just a quick note on our "Democracy." Technically, we don't have one. We have a Democratic Republic. Which confuses the issues all the more;-o
Well, Yubajeff, your post is an example of 'freedom of expression', but in my mind, not a discussion of it. But that's cool.
As for your take on Democracy, I don't recall that it's goal is to end up with "world peace, a stable economy, a compassionate government, an intelligent management of our resources."
I believe that it's goal is to do what the majority wants, or at least those with the most money... in the case of USA style Democracy. That's where it gets sick, with the majority of the people, not the Democracy. (IMHO)
Well, Yubajeff, your post is an example of 'freedom of expression', but in my mind, not a discussion of it. But that's cool.
As for your take on Democracy, I don't recall that it's goal is to end up with "world peace, a stable economy, a compassionate government, an intelligent management of our resources."
I believe that it's goal is to do what the majority wants, or at least those with the most money... in the case of USA style Democracy. That's where it gets sick, with the majority of the people, not the Democracy. (IMHO)
Suz
09-17-2009, 07:32 PM
Before it morphed something else, this thread began to be about freedom of expression and offense, and that is interesting...particularly the question of what is offensive, and/or how it is perceived as such, and/or when it is or isn't okay.
The written word is powerful, and even though it often 'feels like' a spoken conversation to the writer, e-mailing and posting such as on the bulletin board is not like speaking face to face, since it lacks the vocal and visual cues that signal the speaker's intent. Technology gives us the opportunity to disseminate our writings instantly, and perhaps without sufficient thought beforehand.
When we say something to someone and they are offended, we see it, hear it and know it, and we have an immediate opportunity to convey suitable remorse with looks, touch and words, if offense was inadvertent. But I have observed in these pages that a written apology or further explanation doesn't get much traction.
The writer is irrevocably committed to what was written, subject to the readers' interpretation, as soon as the send button is clicked. In this medium, something as innocuous as a malapropism or a carelessly mis-spelled or missing word can "read" as offensive. Then there is a disturbance in the respectful dialogue and everyone piles on and the thread unravels.
Just some food for thought.
The written word is powerful, and even though it often 'feels like' a spoken conversation to the writer, e-mailing and posting such as on the bulletin board is not like speaking face to face, since it lacks the vocal and visual cues that signal the speaker's intent. Technology gives us the opportunity to disseminate our writings instantly, and perhaps without sufficient thought beforehand.
When we say something to someone and they are offended, we see it, hear it and know it, and we have an immediate opportunity to convey suitable remorse with looks, touch and words, if offense was inadvertent. But I have observed in these pages that a written apology or further explanation doesn't get much traction.
The writer is irrevocably committed to what was written, subject to the readers' interpretation, as soon as the send button is clicked. In this medium, something as innocuous as a malapropism or a carelessly mis-spelled or missing word can "read" as offensive. Then there is a disturbance in the respectful dialogue and everyone piles on and the thread unravels.
Just some food for thought.
Hotspring 44
09-18-2009, 12:29 AM
[quote=Suz;97909]Before it morphed something else, this thread began to be about freedom of expression and offense, and that is interesting...particularly the question of what is offensive, and/or how it is perceived as such, and/or when it is or isn't okay.
<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CSH%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> I guess that would be a matter of personal perception or the web sites moderator/s.
[quote=Suz;97909]The written word is powerful, and even though it often 'feels like' a spoken conversation to the writer, e-mailing and posting such as on the bulletin board is not like speaking face to face, since it lacks the vocal and visual cues that signal the speaker's intent. Technology gives us the opportunity to disseminate our writings instantly, and perhaps without sufficient thought beforehand.
<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CSH%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->Yepers’.:nod:
[quote=Suz;97909]When we say something to someone and they are offended, we see it, hear it and know it, and we have an immediate opportunity to convey suitable remorse with looks, touch and words, if offense was inadvertent. But I have observed in these pages that a written apology or further explanation doesn't get much traction.
<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CSH%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> I'm not so absolutely sure about that. example: I used to get misinterpreted in face-to-face conversations quite frequently when talking to people; whereas I would try to explain something and for some reason I felt I was not quite understood so I would try to explain in a different way than to them. To them, sometimes that was offensive.I think as far as the Internet is concerned it depends upon what was expressed in the first place and what was conveyed in both the apologies and interpretations by individuals who may or may not have been offended in the first place. at least on the Internet, it's in writing. LOL!
[quote=Suz;97909]The writer is irrevocably committed to what was written, subject to the readers' interpretation, as soon as the send button is clicked. In this medium, something as innocuous as a malapropism or a carelessly mis-spelled or missing word can "read" as offensive. Then there is a disturbance in the respectful dialogue and everyone piles on and the thread unravels.
<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CSH%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> I guess that is sort of the nature of the beast with the Internet and all but somehow within all that, people can still convey what they mean, whether it be literal, tongue-in-cheek, apologies, misinterpretations and or incorrectly worded replies in writing, or even (the proverbial) insults.:Yinyangv:
Overall I think freedom of expression, here is (albeit not absolute) quite abundant.
Also, I do think it's kind of humorous (even when it is I sometimes), when one puts foot in one's mouth! Particularly because it's in writing and in a sense could be construed as irrevocable, because once it's on the Internet, it's out there somewhere; :yltype: LOL!:communication: :biglaugh:
<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CSH%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> I guess that would be a matter of personal perception or the web sites moderator/s.
[quote=Suz;97909]The written word is powerful, and even though it often 'feels like' a spoken conversation to the writer, e-mailing and posting such as on the bulletin board is not like speaking face to face, since it lacks the vocal and visual cues that signal the speaker's intent. Technology gives us the opportunity to disseminate our writings instantly, and perhaps without sufficient thought beforehand.
<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CSH%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->Yepers’.:nod:
[quote=Suz;97909]When we say something to someone and they are offended, we see it, hear it and know it, and we have an immediate opportunity to convey suitable remorse with looks, touch and words, if offense was inadvertent. But I have observed in these pages that a written apology or further explanation doesn't get much traction.
<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CSH%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> I'm not so absolutely sure about that. example: I used to get misinterpreted in face-to-face conversations quite frequently when talking to people; whereas I would try to explain something and for some reason I felt I was not quite understood so I would try to explain in a different way than to them. To them, sometimes that was offensive.I think as far as the Internet is concerned it depends upon what was expressed in the first place and what was conveyed in both the apologies and interpretations by individuals who may or may not have been offended in the first place. at least on the Internet, it's in writing. LOL!
[quote=Suz;97909]The writer is irrevocably committed to what was written, subject to the readers' interpretation, as soon as the send button is clicked. In this medium, something as innocuous as a malapropism or a carelessly mis-spelled or missing word can "read" as offensive. Then there is a disturbance in the respectful dialogue and everyone piles on and the thread unravels.
<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CSH%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> I guess that is sort of the nature of the beast with the Internet and all but somehow within all that, people can still convey what they mean, whether it be literal, tongue-in-cheek, apologies, misinterpretations and or incorrectly worded replies in writing, or even (the proverbial) insults.:Yinyangv:
Overall I think freedom of expression, here is (albeit not absolute) quite abundant.
Also, I do think it's kind of humorous (even when it is I sometimes), when one puts foot in one's mouth! Particularly because it's in writing and in a sense could be construed as irrevocable, because once it's on the Internet, it's out there somewhere; :yltype: LOL!:communication: :biglaugh:
Tars
09-18-2009, 09:36 AM
When we say something to someone and they are offended, we see it, hear it and know it, and we have an immediate opportunity to convey suitable remorse with looks, touch and words, if offense was inadvertent. But I have observed in these pages that a written apology or further explanation doesn't get much traction.
Precisely!
Forum discussion reminds me of giving opinion in a totally democratic setting, where each listener has an equal vote, as in a cooperative or club meeting. The more experience one gains at discussion in that kind of setting, usually the less they will react emotionally to others' comments, not tending so much to take comments personally.
When one's opinion is greeted by comments that they're a "Nazi", or "stupid", or "lying" or "pathetic", a relatively inexperienced poster may feel hurt. But if they have the fortitude to continue participating, they realize that the people who feel the need to use terms like those are the ones who need to learn how to effectively communicate.
Life is for learning patience.
Precisely!
Forum discussion reminds me of giving opinion in a totally democratic setting, where each listener has an equal vote, as in a cooperative or club meeting. The more experience one gains at discussion in that kind of setting, usually the less they will react emotionally to others' comments, not tending so much to take comments personally.
When one's opinion is greeted by comments that they're a "Nazi", or "stupid", or "lying" or "pathetic", a relatively inexperienced poster may feel hurt. But if they have the fortitude to continue participating, they realize that the people who feel the need to use terms like those are the ones who need to learn how to effectively communicate.
Life is for learning patience.
Neshamah
09-18-2009, 10:58 AM
Concerning benevolent dictators:
It would be the ultimate abdication of personal responsibility to let a single person make all our decisions. Obama would use the One Ring for good, but he won't live forever, and there are a lot more George Bushes in the wings than Dennis Kuciniches who might take his place. Local communities need to make more efforts close to home. If we try to get a central government to solve our problems for us, well, we'll deserve what we get.
Concerning freedom of expression:
In my experience, posters only resort to name-calling when they don't have arguments, sort of like a math teacher might say "obviously" if he doesn't know how to explain a particular step in a math problem.
I think we all have a duty to interpret the speech of others in the best possible light wherever possible. I would rather not know I am being insulted than take offense at a well-meant remark. People taking offense leads to political correctness, restricted thought, and a less diverse and more monolithic culture.
~ Jessica
It would be the ultimate abdication of personal responsibility to let a single person make all our decisions. Obama would use the One Ring for good, but he won't live forever, and there are a lot more George Bushes in the wings than Dennis Kuciniches who might take his place. Local communities need to make more efforts close to home. If we try to get a central government to solve our problems for us, well, we'll deserve what we get.
Concerning freedom of expression:
In my experience, posters only resort to name-calling when they don't have arguments, sort of like a math teacher might say "obviously" if he doesn't know how to explain a particular step in a math problem.
I think we all have a duty to interpret the speech of others in the best possible light wherever possible. I would rather not know I am being insulted than take offense at a well-meant remark. People taking offense leads to political correctness, restricted thought, and a less diverse and more monolithic culture.
~ Jessica