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Barry
08-28-2009, 10:15 AM
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American opinions on Afghanistan

A war of necessity?
Aug 20th 2009 | WASHINGTON, DC
From The Economist print edition


Americans are giving Barack Obama the benefit of the doubt. For now

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</td></tr></tbody></table> <!--back-->THE orator-in-chief has not lost his touch. Addressing a crowd of military veterans on August 17th, Barack Obama thanked them for their service and vowed to give their successors in uniform everything they might need, while also cutting waste from the military budget. He reminded them that he was cancelling plans for a costly presidential helicopter that, among other things, would have let him cook a meal while under nuclear attack. If America is under nuclear attack, he assured them, “the last thing on my mind will be whipping up a snack”.

The main purpose of his speech, however, was to drum up support for the war in Afghanistan. “This is not a war of choice,” he said. “This is a war of necessity. Those who attacked America on 9/11 are plotting to do so again. If left unchecked, the Taliban insurgency will mean an even larger safe haven from which al-Qaeda would plot to kill more Americans. So this is not only a war worth fighting. This is fundamental to the defence of our people.”

<cf_floatingcontent></cf_floatingcontent> This echoes what Mr Obama said on the campaign trail last year. He made a distinction between the “dumb war” in Iraq and the good one in Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden plotted the toppling of the twin towers from Afghanistan. Overthrowing the Taliban regime that sheltered him was the right thing to do. If elected, Mr Obama promised to pull out of Iraq and concentrate on Afghanistan.

As president, he has kept his word, though not as quickly as he said he would. “We will remove all our troops from Iraq by the end of 2011,” he reiterated this week, “and for America, the Iraq war will end.” At the same time, he is sending more troops to Afghanistan. Their mission, he says, is to “disrupt, dismantle and defeat al-Qaeda and its extremist allies”.

Like George Bush before him, Mr Obama reckons that the best way to sell a war to Americans is to mention al-Qaeda early and often. But also like Mr Bush, his war is more complicated than he makes it sound. American troops are not really fighting al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, because they are not there any more. The group’s surviving leaders have mostly fled to neighbouring Pakistan.

They could come back, perhaps, if America were to abandon Afghanistan and the Taliban took over again. Denying them a safe haven is obviously in America’s national interest. But there are several other wild places where al-Qaeda might also set up shop, such as Yemen, Somalia, Eritrea, Sudan, the Philippines or Uzbekistan. “We clearly cannot afford to wage protracted warfare with multiple brigades of American ground forces simply to deny al-Qaeda access to every possible safe haven. We would run out of brigades long before bin Laden ran out of prospective sanctuaries,” writes Stephen Biddle of the Council on Foreign Relations, a think-tank.

Mr Obama knows this, of course. His purpose in committing so many troops to Afghanistan is not merely to prevent al-Qaeda from returning but also to prevent the country from collapsing into chaos and destabilising its nuclear-armed neighbour, Pakistan. That is too complicated to put on a bumper sticker, but Mr Obama still has the political capital to attempt it.

That may sound surprising. Opinion polls in America show a growing pessimism about Afghanistan (see table). But such gloomy views are seldom offered unprompted. The anti-war movement has all but lapsed into silence. A Democratic pollster asked people at Netroots Nation, a big conference this month for left-wing activists, which issue they were spending most time campaigning about. The war in Afghanistan came last. Like other Americans, progressives are now much more worked up about domestic issues, such as whether they will have health insurance next year. As an electoral issue, Afghanistan is “about as inconsequential as it could be,” says Charlie Cook, a political analyst.

That means that Mr Obama has a relatively free hand in deciding how to deal with Afghanistan, at least for now. Since he did not start the war, no one accuses him of being a warmonger. Since he is prosecuting it seriously, hardly anyone accuses him of being weak-kneed. He has funds, forces and a strategy: to combine rigorous counter-insurgency with efforts to promote development and good governance. He has some time to make it work. But how much?

Voters may not be paying much attention to Afghanistan right now, but Congress is growing increasingly uneasy, says Jessica Mathews, the president of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, a think-tank. Lawmakers worry that the costs of America’s huge and open-ended commitment may outweigh its benefits. Counter-insurgency campaigns typically take many years, cost a fortune in blood and treasure and end in failure. The people who know most about Afghanistan are often the gloomiest. “Is Nation-Building Doomed?” asks Foreign Affairs. “Is It Worth It?” wonders the American Interest.

Mr Biddle, who wrote the article in the American Interest, thinks the war is worth fighting, but only barely. The costs will be high, the outcome uncertain. Mr Obama’s strategy promises more bloodshed in the short run in exchange for a chance of stability in the long term. That is hardly a combination that will appeal to voters, so it will be hard to sustain political support for it for long enough to make it work.

If the number of American deaths rises too fast, Americans will start to take notice of Afghanistan and Mr Obama’s job will become much harder. Mr Cook cautions that the body count would have to rise very sharply indeed to affect the mid-term congressional elections next year. But that is not impossible. The war “will not be quick”, warned Mr Obama this week, “nor easy”. Ms Mathews goes further: Afghanistan could be for Mr Obama what Iraq was for Mr Bush, or even what Vietnam was for Lyndon Johnson.

Clancy
08-28-2009, 10:59 AM
Controlling Afghanistan means controlling the Caspian Sea oil. Now that we have secured the world's second largest oil field (Iraq), we'll be working on the Caspian Sea oil, Somali oil, Venezuelan oil et al.

It will be oil wars for the rest of our lives as western civilization competes for the dwindling life blood of its energy base.

Naturally, American consumers of all this bloody largess won't support outright oil wars, so we get the most convoluted propaganda the world has ever seen, and the American public hardly bats an eye.



Afghanistan, A war of necessity?

Hotspring 44
08-28-2009, 11:13 AM
And we still drive our cars!


Controlling Afghanistan means controlling the Caspian Sea oil. Now that we have secured the world's second largest oil field (Iraq), we'll be working on the Caspian Sea oil, Somali oil, Venezuelan oil et al.

It will be oil wars for the rest of our lives as western civilization competes for the dwindling life blood of it's energy base.

Naturally, American consumers of all this bloody largess won't support outright oil wars, so we get the most convoluted propaganda the world has ever seen, and the American public hardly bats an eye.

Clancy
08-28-2009, 02:30 PM
And we still drive our cars!

And so many of us are good vegans, and oh so spiritual, while we kill brown people by the hundreds of thousands so that we can keep driving our SUVs to Whole Foods.

Tars
08-29-2009, 09:04 AM
That means that Mr Obama has a relatively free hand in deciding how to deal with Afghanistan, at least for now. Since he did not start the war, no one accuses him of being a warmonger. Since he is prosecuting it seriously, hardly anyone accuses him of being weak-kneed. He has funds, forces and a strategy: to combine rigorous counter-insurgency with efforts to promote development and good governance. He has some time to make it work. But how much?

The U.S. may well be in Afghanistan for several more years - at least beyond the 2012 election. Rightly, it will most likely be a major issues in politics for several years.

I'm encouraged if the U.S. maintains a significant presence in Afghanistan....IF...the current clusterf*** is not pursued, but is instead used to transform the role of the U.S. military abroad. I am encouraged by indicators that the U.S. military is becoming more involved in assisting local Afghan communities to improve their infrastructures, water systems, schools, etc.

I am discouraged by the simultaneous growing emphasis on eradicating Afghan heroin poppy cultivation. Joint Chiefs Of Staff - can we not go down a "War Against Drugs" path? It doesn't work, and wastes incredible amounts of resources that we could instead be using to help defeat the Taliban by improving the lot of the local Afghan.

Barry
08-29-2009, 05:16 PM
They could come back, perhaps, if America were to abandon Afghanistan and the Taliban took over again. Denying them a safe haven is obviously in America’s national interest. But there are several other wild places where al-Qaeda might also set up shop, such as Yemen, Somalia, Eritrea, Sudan, the Philippines or Uzbekistan. “We clearly cannot afford to wage protracted warfare with multiple brigades of American ground forces simply to deny al-Qaeda access to every possible safe haven. We would run out of brigades long before bin Laden ran out of prospective sanctuaries,” writes Stephen Biddle of the Council on Foreign Relations, a think-tank.
I think this it the key point. We're unfortunately playing "state"/land-based assault on a stateless, shifting "enemy". I would rather ask them what they want. Why do they hate us? And for us, to stop being over-grown international terrorists ourselves, like we were under Reagan/Bush, and remove the desire to attack us.

If we just used half of what we spend on the war for international aid, for the sake of peace, humanity, true democracy, etc. we would be the good guys again and every body would love us! (Kumbaya....) :heart:

Dynamique
08-30-2009, 12:06 AM
Wouldn't it make so much more sense if the "industrialized" world (or whatever one calls the Americas and Eurasia) bought all that opium from Afghanistan for use in pharmaceuticals, thereby creating an above-board market for the crop. Currently the majority of the world's pharmaceutical opium/heroin is grown in New Zealand.

The Afghans do not have a lot of choices of cash crops that can survive the trip to the marketplace. The New Zealanders have other things that they can produce and sell, not to mention an intact infrastructure for getting products to market.

So yes, definitely let's just say no to another expensive and ineffective war on drugs. For that matter, let's just say no to war on anything! :thumbsup:


... I am discouraged by the simultaneous growing emphasis on eradicating Afghan heroin poppy cultivation. Joint Chiefs Of Staff - can we not go down a "War Against Drugs" path? It doesn't work, and wastes incredible amounts of resources that we could instead be using to help defeat the Taliban by improving the lot of the local Afghan.

Barry
08-30-2009, 03:47 PM
Wouldn't it make so much more sense if the "industrialized" world (or whatever one calls the Americas and Eurasia) bought all that opium from Afghanistan for use in pharmaceuticals, thereby creating an above-board market for the crop. Currently the majority of the world's pharmaceutical opium/heroin is grown in New Zealand.

The Afghans do not have a lot of choices of cash crops that can survive the trip to the marketplace. The New Zealanders have other things that they can produce and sell, not to mention an intact infrastructure for getting products to market.
Great Idea! I haven't heard this mentioned before.

Tars
08-30-2009, 08:28 PM
Future of U.S. counter-insurgency tactics? Let us hope!

From CNN.com (https://www.cnn.com/):
U.S. helping Afghan farmers give up opium for wheat (https://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/02/02/afghanistan.poppy.farms/index.html)

Story Highlights
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USAID offering seeds, other help to encourage Afghan farmers to grow wheat
Agency trying to wean Afghan farmers from poppy production
Poppy plants used to produce opium and heroin
Opium, heroin has been a major source of revenue for the TalibanFrom Asia Times:

Afghan farmers ditch opium for saffron (https://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/KF25Df01.html)

Excerpt:

"HERAT, Afghanistan - Abdul Samad has given up growing poppies. The farmer from Gulmir, from a village in Pashtun Zarghon district of Herat province, has found monetary and spiritual benefits in switching to saffron.

"I always felt sinful when I was growing poppies," he said. "The money brought me no joy, and did not allow me to change my life."

From Join Together (https://www.jointogether.org/) (drug policy think tank):

U.S. Uses Incentives to Stop Afghan Farmers from Producing Poppies (https://www.jointogether.org/news/headlines/inthenews/2009/us-uses-incentives-to-stop.html)

Excerpt:

"The Obama administration is implementing a new $300-million program to discourage Afghan farmers from growing poppies by providing them with incentives to start growing other crops, such as wheat and corn, the Wall Street Journal (https://online.wsj.com/article/SB125021357982431177.html?mod=googlenews_wsj) reported Aug. 14.
The U.S. will provide small grants to Afghan businesses that process and store food, pay for new roads and irrigation systems, and sell seed and livestock to Afghan farmers at a deep discount. "