Cities banning outdoor cats! [Archive]

daynurse

08-12-2009, 12:26 AM

A war has been declared on free-roaming cats and the killing has started.
The existing network of feline protectors has been overwhelmed by government agencies influenced by an insidious propaganda campaign. The principals of The Feline Resistance! believe that in addition to education, it is now necessary to empower local cat advocates with the capability to expose the lies and stop the killing . . .
In 1997, the American Bird Conservancy (ABC), a well financed special interest group, fired the first shot in the war against felines with their "Cats Indoors!" campaign. After a slow start, the effort generated substantial results in 2003. The primary purpose of their lobbying campaign is the elimination of all outdoorcats- strays, ferals and pets. Indeed, they specifically recommend that homeless and lost cats should be captured and sent to local shelters, knowing full well that most will be killed.

As of today, the American Bird Conservancy's Cats Indoors! campaign has successfully influenced federal, state and local governments with misinformation and extrapolated data about the "devastating effects" free-roaming felines have on "millions" of birds and "billions" of small mammals.

I got it from: The Feline Resistance (https://www.felineresistance.com/overview.shtml)

Posted for Marcelle Guy Petalumaferalcats.com

Petaluma Animal Shelter presently traps and kills feral cats in a "No Kill" shelter. A couple of years ago, 400 cats were "euthanized".
A new ordinance to correct this is on the calendar for October of this year. Let the city council know your feelings. CityofPetaluma.net

Clancy

08-12-2009, 06:18 AM

I'm up early to take a feral cat I trapped to Forgotten Felines for neutering. Would you like to adopt him? He's a beautiful Abby Tabby.

If you can't adopt him, what do you propose we do with the thousands of other cats in the county that can't be adopted either?

cosmiccorn

08-12-2009, 08:49 AM

It is the unfortunate truth that literally millions of cats and dogs (both purebred and mongrel) are killed every year simply for want of a home.
Although there will always be irresponsible pet caretakers, we can help reduce this unnecessary suffering by spaying and neutering all companion animals. I know that some feel compelled to breed their companion animals because they are "special", but what is not special about the unlucky ones who are killed before their time because there are too many animals and not enough homes.
On the note of 'responsible breeding', I think there are those that are more responsible than others. This said, one criteria I would expect of a 'responsible' breeder, is that they agree to take an animal back should the adoptee not work out in the adopting family's home.

For additional information on how to reduce the pet overpopulation problem in California, please check this link: SB 250 The Pet Responsibility Act - Official Website (https://www.yesonsb250.com/sb250-home.php).

I'm up early to take a feral cat I trapped to Forgotten Felines for neutering. Would you like to adopt him? He's a beautiful Abby Tabby.

If you can't adopt him, what do you propose we do with the thousands of other cats in the county that can't be adopted either?

someguy

08-12-2009, 09:55 AM

Thats crazy that this bird society it trying to ban cats from the outdoors. Are birds inherently more important than cats? Cats belong outdoors, and just because they dont have a humans home to share doesn't mean that they should be killed. I think people forget that these are animals that know how to survive outdoors. Let cats live where ever they choose, and dont kill stray cats or neuter domestic cats. Does anyone know the logic behind killing and/or mutilating these animals?

Clancy

08-12-2009, 10:17 AM

...Let cats live where ever they choose, and dont kill stray cats or neuter domestic cats. Does anyone know the logic behind killing and/or mutilating these animals?

Domestic cats don't choose to live short brutal lives, and that's what happens to homeless cats.

The logic behind euthanasia and spaying and neutering is that there are already thousands of cats without homes, right here in Sonoma County. What do you propose doing with them? If your answer is to put them up in shelters, with little prospect for homes, what do we do with the several thousand cats that will follow within months?

There are simply far more cats than homes for them.

ALL cats and dogs should be spayed and neutered until we get this animal holocaust under control.

someguy

08-12-2009, 11:39 AM

What do you propose doing with them? If your answer is to put them up in shelters, with little prospect for homes, what do we do with the several thousand cats that will follow within months?

ALL cats and dogs should be spayed and neutered until we get this animal holocaust under control.

What I was attempting to say is that cats do not need a human household to call home. They can survive very well in the wild. Not every cat needs to be domesticated or euthanized, its that simple.

Clancy

08-12-2009, 12:02 PM

What I was attempting to say is that cats do not need a human household to call home. They can survive very well in the wild. Not every cat needs to be domesticated or euthanized, its that simple.

I respectfully disagree.

Unless they were raised from kittenhood by an actual feral cat, they can not do well in the wild, and most of the cats we're talking about are not feral, and are not living in the wild.

They're scared, starving, abandoned domestic cats, being hit by cars, dying from disease and infection and exposure. The lucky ones are brought to animal shelters by their 'owners', rather than being dropped off on a country road somewhere. And they are abandoned by the thousands, every year.

So what do we do?

Gary

08-12-2009, 12:22 PM

I can understand people getting upset about euthanizing cats, since they represent loving pets for many people. But their effect on native birds and small mammals is tremendous. I looked at the Feline Resistance website to see their explanation of why the American Bird Conservancy (ABC) is "spreading lies", but it was not clearly argued. I would say look at this page (https://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/cats/materials/predation.pdf) from the ABC to get a good understanding of the effects of cats on wildlife. This isn't just a case of differing opinions. Even PETA (https://www.peta.org/mc/factsheet_display.asp?ID=141) is on board with this.

Are birds inherently more important than cats? Cats belong outdoors
I guess this part is ultimately a matter of opinion, but the ecological perspective is that domestic cats were introduced here and their cozy relationship with humans has allowed their numbers to grow higher than they would if they were all truly wild. So slowly they have becoming a massive population of skilled hunters that continue to reduce native bird populations. I like cats, and have 2 adopted and spayed strays, but they do not "belong" here anymore than roof rats, snails, glassy-winged sharpshooters, light brown apple moths, and other "pests" that are exterminated, we just happen to like them.

someguy

08-12-2009, 01:23 PM

It seems that Clancy thinks that these cats cannot survive on their own in the wild, while Gary says that these cats are hunting and killing mucho native birds (very much surviving).

You both can't be right. And yet it seems that these two points are the most common reasons for euthanisation and neutering even though they are contradicting statements.

I think of this issue like I do about our economy. People have already screwed this situation up (by domesticating animals and letting them breed uncontrollably, and also racking up debt uncontrollably) and to fix the situation we people are scared to let nature correct our problem. So we euthanize and we neuter and spend more money (to "fix" the economy) which never actually solves the problem. But rather what we should do is let the cats free and let nature dictate who lives and dies and let the economy plummet so it can actually correct itself.

It's really cruel to keep a cat indoors all day log. Its like keeping a bird in a cage. That is NOT COOL. Just my opinion.

Clancy

08-12-2009, 02:20 PM

That domestic cats kill lots of birds yet can't survive on their own is not a contradiction, and neither point is why cats are euthanized by the millions in this country.

May I suggest you ask for a tour of any of our animal shelters, and take a look at the cats you think would survive on their own. Ask the staff, and the volunteers, why that's an absurd notion.

It seems that Clancy thinks that these cats cannot survive on their own in the wild, while Gary says that these cats are hunting and killing mucho native birds (very much surviving).

You both can't be right. And yet it seems that these two points are the most common reasons for euthanisation and neutering even though they are contradicting statements.

I think of this issue like I do about our economy. People have already screwed this situation up (by domesticating animals and letting them breed uncontrollably, and also racking up debt uncontrollably) and to fix the situation we people are scared to let nature correct our problem. So we euthanize and we neuter and spend more money (to "fix" the economy) which never actually solves the problem. But rather what we should do is let the cats free and let nature dictate who lives and dies and let the economy plummet so it can actually correct itself.

It's really cruel to keep a cat indoors all day log. Its like keeping a bird in a cage. That is NOT COOL. Just my opinion.

someguy

08-12-2009, 03:25 PM

That domestic cats kill lots of birds yet can't survive on their own is not a contradiction, and neither point is why cats are euthanized by the millions in this country.

May I suggest you ask for a tour of any of our animal shelters, and take a look at the cats you think would survive on their own. Ask the staff, and the volunteers, why that's an absurd notion.

Well if a great amount of birds are severally put at risk by cats being in the environment then I would absolutely say that the cats are thriving.

Also I can share an experience I had once when I was a teenager. My cat Missy who's front claws were ripped out so that my parents couches would remain intact got outside one night during a thunderstorm. After a week or two we considered her a dead duck (cat). Turns out after 6 months she was found under someones front porch 35 miles away from my families house very much alive with her purple collar and bell still assembled. She survived just fine. Mind you she never grew up with her mother (we got her when she was a handful of weeks old from an animal shelter) so she never learned those sharp hunting skills supposedly required to survive.

I think cats are natural survivors, and a part of our environment. If the birds cant handle cats in their environment they'll go somewhere else. If the cats cant handle the environment they're in, then they'll die naturally or move on someplace else. Its evolution in action, just with human intervention screwing things up. But nature will balance things out if the humans just take a step aside.

Clancy

08-12-2009, 03:57 PM

Frankly, I'm speechless. I shouldn't be, after spending years working with cats and the people who misunderstand them, but the depth of public ignorance about this subject is still shocking.

Try googling 'domestic vs feral cat life expectancy'. Here, I'll make it easy for you...
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=domestic+vs+feral+cat+life+expectancy&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Well if a great amount of birds are severally put at risk by cats being in the environment then I would absolutely say that the cats are thriving.

Also I can share an experience I had once when I was a teenager. My cat Missy who's front claws were ripped out so that my parents couches would remain intact got outside one night during a thunderstorm. After a week or two we considered her a dead duck (cat). Turns out after 6 months she was found under someones front porch 35 miles away from my families house very much alive with her purple collar and bell still assembled. She survived just fine. Mind you she never grew up with her mother (we got her when she was a handful of weeks old from an animal shelter) so she never learned those sharp hunting skills supposedly required to survive.

I think cats are natural survivors, and a part of our environment. If the birds cant handle cats in their environment they'll go somewhere else. If the cats cant handle the environment they're in, then they'll die naturally or move on someplace else. Its evolution in action, just with human intervention screwing things up. But nature will balance things out if the humans just take a step aside.

nurturetruth

08-12-2009, 04:24 PM

I have had my 3 kitty children for 8 years now....they are outdoor/indoor at free will and only once in 8 years have one of them ever caught a bird...
and it wasn't for food .

I live in a place where I have bird feeders up everywhere and birds even eat the bird food that is on the ground....with the cats laying in the shade close by . We co-exist.

I think cats are great asset to have as outdoor pets especially for gardeners for the gopher control ........

:kitty:

someguy

08-12-2009, 04:29 PM

Frankly, I'm speechless. I shouldn't be, after spending years working with cats and the people who misunderstand them, but the depth of public ignorance about this subject is still shocking.

Try googling 'domestic vs feral cat life expectancy'. Here, I'll make it easy for you...
domestic vs feral cat life expectancy - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=domestic+vs+feral+cat+life+expectancy&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=)

Usually when people say 'frankly they are speechless' they cease any further attempt at speaking. Google it.

Clancy

08-12-2009, 04:31 PM

Usually when people say the frankly they are speechless they cease any further attempt at speaking. Google it.

You do have a point. What I meant to say, is that I don't know how to deal with such obstinate, willful ignorance, especially when it involves innocent animals.

Cats on their own average less than two years life. Domestic cats average 15 to 18 years life.

someguy

08-12-2009, 04:39 PM

You do have a point. What I meant to say, is that I don't know how to deal with such obstinate, willful ignorance.

Good point. Maybe you got something to work on?

Clancy

08-12-2009, 04:43 PM

Good point. Maybe you got something to work on?

Yes, how do I convey to you that outdoor cats, on their own, live on average less than two years, when you're so full of yourself you have no room to learn anything?

I've tried being polite, I've explained the facts, I've even linked you to the information. What does it take?

someguy

08-12-2009, 04:47 PM

Yes, how do I convey to you that outdoor cats, on their own, live on average less than two years, when you're so full of yourself you have no room to learn anything?

I've tried being polite, I've explained the facts, I've even linked you to the information. What does it take?

Sorry I meant to say maybe I have something to work on.... Not you.... Sorry... I read your links to google. Your right feral cats live a shorter life. I don't know what that proves exactly. I never doubted that. But what I am saying is that a short good life (outdoors) is much better than a long shitty life (indoors).

Clancy

08-12-2009, 04:50 PM

Sorry I meant to say maybe I have something to work on.... Not you.... Sorry... I read your links to google. Your right feral cats live a shorter life. I don't know what that proves exactly.

Thank you. If you re-read my posts in this thread, you'll see what it proves.

someguy

08-12-2009, 05:02 PM

Thank you. If you re-read my posts in this thread, you'll see what it proves.
Ok so I re-read your posts and this is what I gathered.

You say that homeless cats live a bad short life and there are thousands of them right here in our county. We as a county don't know what to do with them because we dont want them dieing in the streets. Meanwhile, domestic cats are incapable of surviving outdoors without a domestic provider (human home). You provide evidence supporting your notion that domestic cats survive longer than wild (feral) cats. I understand.

My position is that domestic cats are capable of surviving without a permanent domestic provider. I gave you an example of my parents cat who survived for 6 months without claws and a bell around her neck. I think that supports my claim pretty well. I also say that a cat who is put in its natural environment will live a happier and yes, even a shorter life than that of a domestic cat. And the reason why I say it's better for a cat to live free is because that is what cats want. Its obvious that every cat loves to go outdoors and attack mice and snakes, and its even more obvious when you have kittens. Ive seen a few in my days.

Also, this has more to do with Gary's argument but he says that the cats are killing off native birds in the county and they need to be controlled. I say that this is a problem that man has created (domesticating too many animals and tipping the scale (cat) for our environment) and man won't be able to fix it. Were just creating another law and another barrier between fixing the real problem at hand. I say we let nature correct this problem and not more suppression of these kittens. Because it really is a shame to lock up a kitten in a house all day long.

Hotspring 44

08-12-2009, 06:13 PM

SocialJustice

08-12-2009, 06:51 PM

Domestic cats don't choose to live short brutal lives, and that's what happens to homeless cats.

The logic behind euthanasia and spaying and neutering is that there are already thousands of cats without homes, right here in Sonoma County. What do you propose doing with them? If your answer is to put them up in shelters, with little prospect for homes, what do we do with the several thousand cats that will follow within months?

There are simply far more cats than homes for them.

ALL cats and dogs should be spayed and neutered until we get this animal holocaust under control.

Original Message ----------- Date: <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:date Month="7" Day="20" Year="2009">Mon, 20 Jul 2009</st1:date><st1:time Hour="11" Minute="58">11:58:09</st1:time> -0700 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
From: "Jennifer Kirchner" [email protected]<o:p></o:p>
To: Dear Mayor Torliatt, Petaluma Council members and City Manager,<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
As a result of a collaboration with representatives from Save our Ferals, Petaluma FeralCats.com, Forgotten Felines of Sonoma County and concerned feral cat caretakers and <st1:City><st1:place>Petaluma</st1:place></st1:City> residents, we are pleased to present you a proactive program and ordinance that will save <st1:City><st1:place>Petaluma</st1:place></st1:City> taxpayers money.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
In April, several of us met with Mayor Torliatt and voiced our concerns regarding the recent proposed changes to the City of <st1:City><st1:place>Petaluma</st1:place></st1:City> feral cat ordinance. Out of this meeting, we made a pledge to the Mayor to work together in crafting a revised version of the ordinance that we believe will work for all stakeholders and the City. After consulting with Lieutenant Mike Cook and meeting numerous times as a group, we came up with the attached revised ordinance as well as an Implementation Plan if/when it is approved.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Appreciating the City’s investment in <st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Shollenberger</st1:PlaceName><st1:PlaceType>Park</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>, the new Wastewater Facility and a common concern for all animals and wildlife, you’ll note that the ordinance includes no feeding of feral cats inside Shollenberger or on any of the wetlands in the City of <st1:City><st1:place>Petaluma</st1:place></st1:City>. Understanding a city ordinance cannot conflict with a General Plan the ordinance contains the City of Petaluma General Plan 2025 wetlands definition.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Working with a registered 501c(3) organization and other concerned <st1:City><st1:place>Petaluma</st1:place></st1:City> residents to reduce the number of feral cats, the time and resources used by Animal Services and Animal Control Officers to uphold the current ordinance should be greatly reduced. Not having to trap, take in and euthanize hundreds of feral cats a year is not only humane but will free up Animal Services time for animal adoptions, volunteer recruitment and the other important services they currently provide the community. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
There are many Petaluma residents waiting in the wings who have offered to volunteer, educate and raise funds once this money saving, life saving, and forward thinking ordinance is passed. We also have a bilingual gentleman who has offered to do outreach in the Latino community. We all look forward to implementing the program, are available to answer any questions you may have and are anxious to hear when the ordinance will be on the agenda. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Respectfully, <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Jennifer Kirchner Marcelle Guy <o:p></o:p>
Forgotten Felines of <st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Sonoma</st1:PlaceName><st1:PlaceType>County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> PetalumaFeralCats.com <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Susan Simons
Forgotten Felines of <st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Sonoma</st1:PlaceName><st1:PlaceType>County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>

Diane Reilly Torres<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Pat Boyd Save Our Feral Cats

Angela Zumsteg 2000-04 Animal Services Advisory Committee Member
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p>Attached</o:p>

<st1:date Month="7" Day="13" Year="2009">July 13, 2009</st1:date><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Lieutenant Mike Cook<o:p></o:p>
City of Petaluma Police Department<o:p></o:p>
<st1:Street><st1:address>969 Petaluma Blvd. North</st1:address></st1:Street><o:p></o:p>
<st1:place><st1:City>Petaluma</st1:City>, <st1:State>CA</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode>94952-6320</st1:PostalCode></st1:place><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Dear Mike,<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
In order to help facilitate the completion of the feral cat ordinance, and knowing that your schedule is very tight, we have taken the changes and additions discussed in our meeting with you, and drafted a revised version of the ordinance that we are comfortable with. It includes the rewriting of the first paragraph, per your instruction, outlines a colony tracking system and yearly assessment for success, and identifies areas where the living of feral cats is inappropriate to the nature of the area. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
We feel that this reflects the community’s belief that feral cats need to be addressed in a cost effective, humane and caring manner and that caregivers of the cats are good, compassionate residents of <st1:City><st1:place>Petaluma</st1:place></st1:City> who deserve the respect and thanks of the City. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Thank you for working with us on this. Sincerely,<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>
Jennifer Kirchner<o:p></o:p>
Forgotten Felines of <st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Sonoma</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType>County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Susan Simons<o:p></o:p>
Forgotten Felines of <st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Sonoma</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType>County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Marcelle Guy<o:p></o:p>
PetalumaFeralCats.com<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Diane Reilly Torres<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Angela Zumsteg<o:p></o:p>
2000-04 Animal Services Advisory Committee Member<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Pat Boyd<o:p></o:p>
Save Our Feral Cats<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

ChristineL

08-12-2009, 07:14 PM

When one of my neighbors moved away leaving 18 not neutered cats behind, I can tell you they were not doing a good job of surviving...some manage to hunt well and eat, others don't. After two weeks, over three quarters were underweight, all the young ones were so flea infested that their gums were losing color, they would have died if I hadn't Advantaged the whole lot.

My cats, especially the blind one, would be surprised to know they are living long miserable lives because they don't go out. They're playful, purr a lot, love to chase the Bichon around, and don't even try to go out when the front door opens, as a matter of fact two of them run as far into the house as they can get when the front door opens.

Outside, cats get run over, catch diseases, die of flea anemia, and usually don't hunt well enough to survive. Those that do survive are often good at begging and eat outdoor pets' food, or get people to give them food, or manage to go through garbage. As for well fed cats, they often kill for sport.

It's also not particularly good for people's gardens...I can vouch for that. Cat urine is murder on plants. I have three neighbors who between them contribute six cats to roam my property, dig, urinate, leave corpses, etc. No, I don't need them to control the outdoor rodent population, the raccoons do a masterful job of that. Unfortunately, cats cannot be confined to one property...I can see the point of view that cats should not be outside.

Clancy

08-12-2009, 08:26 PM

By coincidence, I saw Jennifer Kirchner just today, when I took a feral cat in to be neutered. I'm not sure what the point of your post is, would you mind stating it?

Original Message ----------- Date: <st1:date month="7" day="20" year="2009">Mon, 20 Jul 2009</st1:date><st1:time hour="11" minute="58">11:58:09</st1:time> -0700 <o:p></o:p>
From: "Jennifer Kirchner" [email protected]<o:p></o:p>
To: Dear Mayor Torliatt, Petaluma Council members and City Manager,<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
As a result of a collaboration with representatives from Save our Ferals, Petaluma FeralCats.com, Forgotten Felines of Sonoma County and concerned feral cat caretakers and <st1:city><st1:place>Petaluma</st1:place></st1:city> residents, we are pleased to present you a proactive program and ordinance that will save <st1:city><st1:place>Petaluma</st1:place></st1:city> taxpayers money.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>...<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

seagreen

08-13-2009, 05:43 PM

FYI:
1. The American Bird Conservancy uses our tax dollars to promote their "cats indoors campaign. The National Fish and Wildlife Foundation ("NFWF directs public conservation dollars to the most pressing environmental needs"....quote off their website).
2. The complaints that cats kill birds and other wildlife. Check out the CatBib, tested and shown to stop 81% of cats from catching any birds. (not all cats catch birds). Recommended by Audubon, but the American Bird Conservancy will never tell you about it.
3. The one problem with cats people must address are the abandoned, feral cats that have not been spayed or neutered. Every year out neighborhoods are inundated with kittens, that people either try to give away or abandon. That is what has to stop, not banishing cats or caging them in our homes. It's a people problem not a cat problem.

Thanks for listening.

ChristineL

08-13-2009, 05:59 PM

I'm sorry, but the neighbors' cats wrecking my garden is not a "people" problem...the stench of cat poop in parts of my yard is not a "people" problem, or am I supposed to spend money cat-proofing my yard so my neighbors can let their cats roam free? I actually adopted an "outdoor" cat that was abandoned when neighbors way down the road moved (she sleeps in the store-room on pillows and blankets and gets lots of love) as she's territorial and chases off other cats, but I shouldn't have to do that.

Yes, I do agree the major problem is uncontrolled breeding.

FYI:
1. The American Bird Conservancy uses our tax dollars to promote their "cats indoors campaign. The National Fish and Wildlife Foundation ("NFWF directs public conservation dollars to the most pressing environmental needs"....quote off their website).
2. The complaints that cats kill birds and other wildlife. Check out the CatBib, tested and shown to stop 81% of cats from catching any birds. (not all cats catch birds). Recommended by Audubon, but the American Bird Conservancy will never tell you about it.
3. The one problem with cats people must address are the abandoned, feral cats that have not been spayed or neutered. Every year out neighborhoods are inundated with kittens, that people either try to give away or abandon. That is what has to stop, not banishing cats or caging them in our homes. It's a people problem not a cat problem.

Thanks for listening.

Hotspring 44

08-13-2009, 10:13 PM

urlove

08-13-2009, 11:32 PM

I have been reading the posts on this issue. I have had cats my whole life. I have always had indoor/outdoor cats. One of the many things I love about cats is their wild nature. They are a pet but also have a wild side. When one of my cats catches a gopher or something else I am not thrilled about it, but it is NATURE. These things happen in nature. I do not want anyone telling me I have to keep my cats indoors. It would be torture for my cats to suddenly have to stay inside all the time. I am bothered by the over-regulation which seems to be happening more and more in our society. That is my 2 cents.

bill shearer

08-14-2009, 08:06 AM

I see that there are people here that think feral cats are wild and can live well on their own. Actually there is not any feral cats(or dogs) that truly live on their own in the wild, they eek out a existence in our communities or on the outskirts of them only. There are no groups of feral cats or dogs once you leave human inhabited areas anywhere. These animals only exist with our assistance, as our beloved companions or as our pests or somewhere in-between. The problem of uncared for companion animals is our responsibly, they are not wild animals and cannot just naturally take care of themselves. They need us and each one of them that is not cared for responsibly by us is a tragedy. Please Do not fail to spay and neuter your pets, and when you are ready to include a companion animal in your life, adopt.

daynurse

08-14-2009, 09:44 AM

Yes. This is why I posted this. There are so many myths about feral cats. One is that somehow they are a separate class of cats from your kitty on your sofa. They are just abandoned cats. Frankly, I think fines for abandoning cats should be over a thousand dollars with jail time. Yet,
I don't know of any city that has a program designed to prosecute those who abandon cats.

Farmers and ranchers say they wake up at night to the sound of a car slowing down, knowing that they are being dumped on yet again. What was a small problem for the persons in the car now becomes a monstrous problem for the ranchers.

Forgotten Felines has a Trap, Neuter, and Release (TNR) program designed to limit the unfettered population of small areas by these poor cats.

I intend, when I have a bit more time to post research that cats do not dessimate bird populations. Also, many many bird species are non-native. The English brought many birds with them when they settled here. The common barn swallow is a non-native species which travelled here via that route.

Thanks to all who have contributed to this spirited and positive discussion. It proves Barry's point that this community can come together for political discourse without harming any of the participants.

Peggy

.
I see that there are people here that think feral cats are wild and can live well on their own. Actually there is not any feral cats(or dogs) that truly live on their own in the wild, they eek out a existence in our communities or on the outskirts of them only. There are no groups of feral cats or dogs once you leave human inhabited areas anywhere. These animals only exist with our assistance, as our beloved companions or as our pests or somewhere in-between. The problem of uncared for companion animals is our responsibly, they are not wild animals and cannot just naturally take care of themselves. They need us and each one of them that is not cared for responsibly by us is a tragedy. Please Do not fail to spay and neuter your pets, and when you are ready to include a companion animal in your life, adopt.

Neshamah

08-14-2009, 10:54 AM

I am not sure how a program to eliminate cats is any different from a program to eliminate wolves. If one program is okay, I suppose the other is too. However, since Homo sapiens still have rights, responsible Homo sapien pet owners should be able to allow their cats to go outdoors if they reasonably believe it makes their cats happier. Some cats are perfectly happy staying inside their whole lives, but most need to spend at least a little time outdoors.

I agree that responsible pet breeding means being willing and able to care for any kittens not safely adopted. I personally look forward to owning a cat, but I am going to own a home first.

~ Jessica

ChristineL

08-14-2009, 12:06 PM

One of the major differences is that domestic cats are not native or part of the "natural" balance of anything here. Mountain Lions and Bobcats are. The wolf is a wild native animal whose elimination has translated into too many deer (yes, this is over-simplified).

Take a look at the history of Australia. Each introduced non-native species has wreaked havoc with nature in the area they were introduced. This includes feral cats, all descendent from outdoor or indoor/outdoor cats I'm sure...they have decimated populations of small native marsupials.

Nature has nothing to do with humans introducing a non-native species that has almost no predators killing it off and can produce an incredible amount of offspring in a short 2 year lifespan (average for feral cats). Not to mention the domestic cat, with a home, that hides her kittens resulting in a feral litter.

In my opinion, this is very different from eliminating a native species. Domestic outdoor or indoor/outdoor cats that have not been neutered has also resulted in a number of Domestic cat/bobcat crosses. They're sometimes great pets, often not.

Having had indoor cats for almost 30 years, my opinion would be that they adapt very well to indoor only, the right toys and each other seems to keep their "hunting instinct" busy, and my cats have always been healthy and happy. I would agree that once having been outdoor cats most would not adapt well to indoor only. However, I've had a couple that came from outdoors originally and their outdoor experiences were so traumatic that they showed no desire to go outside.

Very much like the concept that it's not fair to neuter a pet and take away their sex life, the concept that cats have to go outside to be happy is a human projection of their own feelings onto their animals. My Bichon is very happy getting long walks at the end of a leash even though some people feel I should let her off the leash to play or she's not happy. Well, unlike the dog of one of these well-meaning people, my dog has not been killed by a car and she is happy. She has cat playmates and another dog inside the house and plays a lot.

If indoors from kittenhood, most cats are perfectly happy staying indoors.

I am not sure how a program to eliminate cats is any different from a program to eliminate wolves. If one program is okay, I suppose the other is too. However, since Homo sapiens still have rights, responsible Homo sapien pet owners should be able to allow their cats to go outdoors if they reasonably believe it makes their cats happier. Some cats are perfectly happy staying inside their whole lives, but most need to spend at least a little time outdoors.

I agree that responsible pet breeding means being willing and able to care for any kittens not safely adopted. I personally look forward to owning a cat, but I am going to own a home first.

~ Jessica

bill shearer

08-14-2009, 12:21 PM

Jessica,
The deference is that feral cats are domestic animals and we are responsible for them being here. They are not wild animals and they do not live without us. As far as being outside goes cats clearly do not need to go out in order to live happy healthy lives. Many people who care about their cats choose to put them outside but I believe this says more about what the cat owner wants than it does about what the cat needs. Cats that are kept in home with loving companionship really could not be better off. When it comes to responsible pet breeding I Believe that means not breeding at all. If you cant find the right cat or dog for you among the hundreds of thousands of adoptable pets that are available then you probably shouldn't have one at all. If you want to have kitten and or puppy raising in your life by all means foster some but Please, do not make more.

bill shearer

08-14-2009, 02:38 PM

Someguy,
I sincerely hope you dont have any pets or children until you become more compassionate.

Ok so I re-read your posts and this is what I gathered.

You say that homeless cats live a bad short life and there are thousands of them right here in our county. We as a county don't know what to do with them because we dont want them dieing in the streets. Meanwhile, domestic cats are incapable of surviving outdoors without a domestic provider (human home). You provide evidence supporting your notion that domestic cats survive longer than wild (feral) cats. I understand.

My position is that domestic cats are capable of surviving without a permanent domestic provider. I gave you an example of my parents cat who survived for 6 months without claws and a bell around her neck. I think that supports my claim pretty well. I also say that a cat who is put in its natural environment will live a happier and yes, even a shorter life than that of a domestic cat. And the reason why I say it's better for a cat to live free is because that is what cats want. Its obvious that every cat loves to go outdoors and attack mice and snakes, and its even more obvious when you have kittens. Ive seen a few in my days.

Also, this has more to do with Gary's argument but he says that the cats are killing off native birds in the county and they need to be controlled. I say that this is a problem that man has created (domesticating too many animals and tipping the scale (cat) for our environment) and man won't be able to fix it. Were just creating another law and another barrier between fixing the real problem at hand. I say we let nature correct this problem and not more suppression of these kittens. Because it really is a shame to lock up a kitten in a house all day long.

Neshamah

08-14-2009, 05:31 PM

Someone who does not allow their cat freedom of movement has no business owning a cat in the first place. A cage is still a cage, no matter how plush.

I am not opposed to euthanizing cats anymore than I am opposed to killing cattle for food and upholstery, but responsible pet owners who want their pet to have the option of going outside should be allowed to do so.

Since North America is not the natural habitat for the descendants of the African Wildcat, anyone who brings a new cat into the world in the U.S. should be held fully accountable for its wellbeing and the wellbeing of any of its descendants. I think prison sentences are very reasonable for pet owners that abandon animals entrusted to their care.

~ Jessica

Clancy

08-14-2009, 06:05 PM

I think the operant word is 'responsible' pet owner. I live near a busy road. At least half a dozen cats belonging to several neighbors have been killed by cars in the time I've lived here.

I think my neighbors are highly irresponsible, they think they're just fine.

Their cats are dead, so they don't think anything.

Someone who does not allow their cat freedom of movement has no business owning a cat in the first place. A cage is still a cage, no matter how plush.

I am not opposed to euthanizing cats anymore than I am opposed to killing cattle for food and upholstery, but responsible pet owners who want their pet to have the option of going outside should be allowed to do so.

Since North America is not the natural habitat for the descendants of the African Wildcat, anyone who brings a new cat into the world in the U.S. should be held fully accountable for its wellbeing and the wellbeing of any of its descendants. I think prison sentences are very reasonable for pet owners that abandon animals entrusted to their care.

~ Jessica

urlove

08-14-2009, 09:35 PM

I am always saddened when people on Wacco make things personal when we are just having a discussion. These kind of attacks stop communication and understanding. I always envision Waccoites as more open and willing to listen to each other.

Someguy,
I sincerely hope you dont have any pets or children until you become more compassionate.

Gary

08-14-2009, 10:29 PM

shelleysworld1

08-14-2009, 11:55 PM

At Zinfandel Drive Senior Apt at 2037 Zinfandel Drive Santa Rosa ca on this past weekend the company mgr of the complex, placed hidden behind bushes, and chained it in the sun. He only posted a notice in the community building, and not sending or posting on each residents door as they do with all other notices.

They left this trap with meat based foods, in the heat and murdered one residents cat, and trapped for over three hours a small pet chihuahua of another resident. She actually talked to the mgr that day and told him about her missing dog. He stated, "Oh that is too bad" She found after over three and half hours and she knew that is her Pet Molly had not been discovered by another residents dog finding her for them she wouldn't have lasted more then a short time.

When the residents discovered this they complained to the management company. But to no change in his actions or letting residents know that a notice to cat pet owners should have been placed for all those to keep their cherished pets in. This complex is a low income complex and recieves federal funds. I think that complaining to the right authorities will hopefully bring about change.

The reasoning behind this action was the cats running loose were bringing vermin such as rats and mice into the complex. This is not a true statement since a few dead vermin have been found outside and in the court yard area. The complex has indoor garbage units as well as two outside units. And these vermin actually were caught by the felines, those who were pets as well as the feral or abandoned and adopted by locals pets.

Shelley Wagner

The Manager his name is Steve and is a cruel and irresponsible manager who only rents to low income residents

A war has been declared on free-roaming cats and the killing has started.
The existing network of feline protectors has been overwhelmed by government agencies influenced by an insidious propaganda campaign. The principals of The Feline Resistance! believe that in addition to education, it is now necessary to empower local cat advocates with the capability to expose the lies and stop the killing . . .
In 1997, the American Bird Conservancy (ABC), a well financed special interest group, fired the first shot in the war against felines with their "Cats Indoors!" campaign. After a slow start, the effort generated substantial results in 2003. The primary purpose of their lobbying campaign is the elimination of all outdoor cats- strays, feral and pets. Indeed, they specifically recommend that homeless and lost cats should be captured and sent to local shelters, knowing full well that most will be killed.

As of today, the American Bird Conservancy's Cats Indoors! campaign has successfully influenced federal, state and local governments with misinformation and extrapolated data about the "devastating effects" free-roaming felines have on "millions" of birds and "billions" of small mammals.

I got it from: The Feline Resistance (https://www.felineresistance.com/overview.shtml)

Posted for Marcelle Guy Petalumaferalcats.com

Petaluma Animal Shelter presently traps and kills feral cats in a "No Kill" shelter. A couple of years ago, 400 cats were "euthanized".
A new ordinance to correct this is on the calendar for October of this year. Let the city council know your feelings. CityofPetaluma.net[/quote]

nurturetruth

08-15-2009, 03:58 AM

Christine:

No need to feel sorry for for your reasons as to why you feel the way you do...not at all!

Having your garden wrecked by cat poop can be very frustrating indeed! (Regardless of whether the cat is feral or domesticated).

In fact, cats that DO use the garden space as a litter box makes other cats do the same thing and it can INDEED damage the plants physically and increases chances for diseases to live in the soil - just as I would not put cat feces in my compost heap, I do not tolerate it in the vegetable garden.
And chances are, if cats are pooing in your garden, probably racoons and possums are too, which would help it smell worse.

Luckily the garden I share with community is protected by netting and or chicken wire. netting is less expensive.
You could try putting cayenne pepper around your garden . I have done this and my cats seem to have quickly learned to keep away. Its safe for the plants and a clear message to the cats.
Hot peppers and orange peels work great too!
Most animals hate the smell of mothballs ....
Good luck!

I'm sorry, but the neighbors' cats wrecking my garden is not a "people" problem...the stench of cat poop in parts of my yard is not a "people" problem, or am I supposed to spend money cat-proofing my yard so my neighbors can let their cats roam free? I actually adopted an "outdoor" cat that was abandoned when neighbors way down the road moved (she sleeps in the store-room on pillows and blankets and gets lots of love) as she's territorial and chases off other cats, but I shouldn't have to do that.

Yes, I do agree the major problem is uncontrolled breeding .

Clancy

08-15-2009, 08:04 AM

If he trapped and killed someone's pet, no 'notice' grants him immunity for his crime. I'd suggest you first call the police so a report can be filed, then call Sonoma County Animal Control
Contact Us - Sonoma County Animal Shelter (https://www.theanimalshelter.org/contact.htm)

At Zinfandel Drive Senior Apt at 2037 Zinfandel Drive Santa Rosa ca on this past weekend the company mgr of the complex, placed hidden behind bushes, and chained it in the sun. He only posted a notice in the community building, and not sending or posting on each residents door as they do with all other notices.

They left this trap with meat based foods, in the heat and murdered one residents cat, and trapped for over three hours a small pet chihuahua of another resident. She actually talked to the mgr that day and told him about her missing dog. He stated, "Oh that is too bad" She found after over three and half hours and she knew that is her Pet Molly had not been discovered by another residents dog finding her for them she wouldn't have lasted more then a short time.