I have finally taken the action that many of you have requested; I am banning "MsTerry (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/members/msterry.html)". This has been a difficult decision since many of his posts (he's a man) are fine. However, there has been a consistent pattern of obnoxious, taunting, mean, "in your face" posts that clearly seek to get a reaction, preferably defensive, at all costs. In a word acting like a troll.
Wikipedia defines a troll (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll) as:
In Internet slang (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang), a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum) or chat room (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chat_room), with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-PCMAG_def_0-0">[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-PCMAG_def-0)</sup> or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-IUKB_def_1-0">[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-IUKB_def-1)</sup>
I'd say he fits the bill to a T. True to the nature of WaccoBB.net, he is more conscious and witty than your garden variety troll, using his considerable skill to twist things in order to deliver his stinging payload, while being witty or in some way "defensible". He has pissed off countless users and derailed many worthy conversations.
Besides the particular user who he succeeds in making upset, there are all the readers that are also affected. Yes, there is the option to ignore (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb-net-faq/19804-how-can-i-ignore-posts-user-how-can-i-notified-when-certain-user-posts.html) his posts, but that is beyond the ability of many users, and new or infrequent users will have no idea who this "woman" is.
Beyond that, and most importantly, it undermines the sense of safety, compassion and respect which is what I want to engender within this conscious community. Without this sense of safety, users leave or choose not to join, or are less transparent and trusting because of the harshness that is tolerated here. I will be moderating more closely in the future to restore this sense of safety and respect.
In light of the fact that MsTerry does have some redeeming value, I am going to let him continue to post to the Censored and Uncensored category (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/censored-un-censored/). That way, unsuspecting readers and posters in the other categories will not have to deal with him, while he can still post and others can read and interact with the knowledge that they do so at their own risk.
The Censored and Uncensored category (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/censored-un-censored/) is not included in our Daily Digest by default, but it's easy to add (see how (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb-net-faq/394-how-select-categories-emails-daily-digest.html)). You can also subscribe to get individual emails of his post by marking him as your "Buddy" (see how (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb-net-faq/19804-how-can-i-ignore-posts-user.html#post27330)).
I realize some of you (including any sockpuppets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_%28Internet%29)that MsTerry still has or creates) may not agree with this action, while many will applaud it as long overdue. There are sure to be concerns about "freedom of speech" and that this board should be open for all to use. I don't agree. You can see my thoughts on those issues here (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccotalk/52927-requiring-true-identity-post-waccobb-net.html#post89809). After allowing over 2,500 posts (including the one from his former username, ThePhiant) my patience is exhausted and it is clear that his presence here does more harm than good.
And to MsTerry, I hope you will be honorable and respect this decision and not try to create alternate aliases.
Hot Compost
05-26-2009, 08:37 AM
I have finally taken the action that many of you have requested; I am banning "MsTerry (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/members/msterry.html)".
can you provide a link to one of the more offensive Ms. Terry posts ? i've read dozens of his posts and don't understand what behavior you had a problem with.
i do understand one fact of life about moderating a forum - it can take up a lot of time (Barry's time, in this case), so sometimes a moderator just needs to ban members that are taking up too much of their time.
i was quite grateful for Ms. Terry's participation, specifically his willingness to tell the truth about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.
RexCasteel
05-26-2009, 10:09 AM
Not an easy job you have, Barry.
I'm not taking a stand "for or against" MsTerry, or even "against free speech" - I don't have any familiarity with the history of this saga - but you are the one who has to make the call.
Nice one.
- Rex
I have finally taken the action that many of you have requested; I am banning "MsTerry (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/members/msterry.html)". This has been a difficult decision...
oreokid
05-26-2009, 10:39 AM
I applaud your decision Barry. I commend your courage to make a tough choice.
To me, this illustrates the subject of tyranny that came up the other day. In part, tyranny is defined as:
the word simply means one who has taken power by their own means
many people whom I meet and am forced to work with thrive on their own brand of tyranny. People who post here to inflame and upset others are tyrants in their own right and need not be suffered. They feed on the misery they inflict on others. They will create misery if none exists. The reasons and remedy for this abound and would be fit for a thread all its own. They act like obnoxious children, and I agree wholeheartedly they need a timeout.
Indeed, in a less civilized society, cretins such as these would simply be found along the road, feeding vultures.
I note that you have only banned this one screen name, leaving room for this person to grow and join us as an adult, if they so choose. I hope they choose wisely.
Harassment in any form is not acceptable……end of story!
thank you barry
shellebelle
05-26-2009, 11:12 AM
I am not sure quite where I stand on this totally.
I know Ms Terry loves to push buttons and create intelligent conversation often simply for the sake of conversation. And is that conversation not what we come for.
On the other hand I know Barry.
My truth is Barry has manifested this through his own actions; he is greater than a co-creater.
Has anyone besides maybe me asked "Why is Waccobb as it is?"
Based on LOA (Law of Attraction), Karma and many other wisdoms Waccobb is a direct reflection of it's owner.
So those of you have decided that Ms Terry is not a good fit for your life stream I wonder . . . how is it that Waccobb is?
Just hoping to get people thinking, questioning, and wondering about themselves a bit here.
And yes I posted this on Ms Terry's thread since otherwise she can't read what I have posted.
Braggi
05-26-2009, 12:44 PM
... I know Ms Terry loves to push buttons and create intelligent conversation often simply for the sake of conversation. And is that conversation not what we come for. ...
I don't come here to be insulted or to read inane comments solely intended to irritate, obfuscate and otherwise add nothing to the conversation.
ThePhiant/MsTerry adds nothing worth reading, in my opinion, with rare exception. The signal to noise ratio is so bad it was time to cut the static. Or, it was time to cut the static many months ago, but Barry's benevolent, patient attitude allowed the ban to sit on the shelf a very long time.
I hoped for a very long time MsTerry would grow up and join the conversation on a peer level, but it hasn't happened, and now I believe it won't. I'm actually sorry about that.
... My truth is Barry has manifested this through his own actions; he is greater than a co-creater.
Has anyone besides maybe me asked "Why is Waccobb as it is?" ...
Waccobb.net is as it is because of the open nature of audience participation. Barry does very little to shape content here. If you believe otherwise you ain't payin' attention.
-Jeff
"Mad" Miles
05-26-2009, 06:19 PM
Dear Waccobbites,
The recent paroxysms of Troll Rage reminded me of this classic death scene from "Blade Runner".
I doubt we've seen the last of ThePhiant/MsTerry/et al. But I applaud Barry's latest move. And no, I don't think he should "retire" it/her/him in real life permanently. That might make Barry end up as one of my students. I don't wish prison on most people.
This is a metaphor I'm proposing, not a literal truth.
And for those who've been "trying" to stereotype me as an asshole... I have generally responded, in the privacy of my office/kitchen while at my 'puter, to their/your attempts as I do in traffic when someone runs up on my bumper at high speed to express their frustration and rage.
I laugh uproariously at the absurdity of their/your reaction, especially in regard to their potential self-destruction. It no longer gets my adrenaline flowing as it once might have.
Other than those belly laughs I haven't replied. Until this little piece of whimsy, and this will be it from me.
I'm not threatening anyone here, or on the road.
Such rage must not be good for one's health. And it's very risky driving.
Didn't Zeno forward something yesterday about perfectionists having shorter life spans?
Of course, on the internet there is little or no risk of immediate self-destruction, other than psychic and emotional long-term damage, hence some people's proclivity for trolling.
It's fun, it's easy and it's safe. If not for others, at least oneself.
Thankfully, it's no longer welcome here. In the case of one person. Any more.
Party On!
"Mad" Miles
:burngrnbounce:
Barry
05-26-2009, 07:24 PM
can you provide a link to one of the more offensive Ms. Terry posts ? i've read dozens of his posts and don't understand what behavior you had a problem with.
i do understand one fact of life about moderating a forum - it can take up a lot of time (Barry's time, in this case), so sometimes a moderator just needs to ban members that are taking up too much of their time.
...
MsTerry and people who have reacted to him have taken alot of my time over the years. I'm not interested in researching his thousands of posts. Long time readers will know that he has caused many a member to become frustrated and/or angry, often by an accumulation of many little jabs and distortions. There is good reason that he is the most ignored member on the list.
The recent thread that proved to be straw that broke this camel's back was Sabrina's post about her husband of 20 years and father of her children being abducted by ICE (immigration) agents. Rather than having compassion for the family, or just being quiet, MsTerry chose to post (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/general-community/52354-urgent-help-needed-okili-nguebari-detained-ice-az.html#post89039) about how Okili's abduction was warranted (as if he knew everything involved).
Clearly such a post would get an emotional reaction, and it did (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/general-community/52354-urgent-help-needed-okili-nguebari-detained-ice-az.html#post89056). He had found his next "mark" to entertain himself, using his favorite technique of accusing people of having done wrong, by twisting their own words against them. Once he got a reaction, he pressed his case (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/general-community/52354-urgent-help-needed-okili-nguebari-detained-ice-az.html#post89067), redundantly, on Mother's Day.
If it were just this case I would chalk it up to insensitivity. However this is part of a very consistent long term pattern. I will not allow this meanness to be spread via WaccoBB.net. And I don't want to have to parse out each of his many posts to see exactly how he is subtly attacking his mark.
I tried to ban him completely as ThePhiant for the identical problem. He managed to get back on the system and I finally welcomed him back and asked that he change his way. He has continued his same game. This time I am allowing him to post in the UnCensored category, which didn't exist before (he was one of the prime antagonists that prompted me to create that category).
If 6 months goes by and he doesn't try to sneak back on the moderated categories, I'll restore his full posting rights. I will be pleasantly surprised if he doesn't cause the same problems once again. Who knows, by then he may have found a new hobby!
Skook
05-26-2009, 07:57 PM
People who enjoy inflicting pain on others and watching them suffer generally don't see the light and become compassionate just because someone points out their anti-social behavior. They're generally immune to therapy too. They don't see their behavior as a problem, it's a source of enjoyment.
By trying to appear fair, and appealing to a non-existent conscience, you continue to exacerbate the problem.
MsTerry and people who have reacted to him have taken alot of my time over the years. I'm not interested in researching his thousands of posts. Long time readers will know that he has caused many a member to become frustrated and/or angry, often by an accumulation of many little jabs and distortions. There is good reason that he is the most ignored member on the list.
The recent thread that proved to be straw that broke this camel's back was Sabrina's post about her husband of 20 years and father of her children being abducted by ICE (immigration) agents. Rather than having compassion for the family, or just being quiet, MsTerry chose to post (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/general-community/52354-urgent-help-needed-okili-nguebari-detained-ice-az.html#post89039) about how Okili's abduction was warranted (as if he knew everything involved).
Clearly such a post would get an emotional reaction, and it did (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/general-community/52354-urgent-help-needed-okili-nguebari-detained-ice-az.html#post89056). He had found his next "mark" to entertain himself, using his favorite technique of accusing people of having done wrong, by twisting their own words against them. Once he got a reaction, he pressed his case (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/general-community/52354-urgent-help-needed-okili-nguebari-detained-ice-az.html#post89067), redundantly, on Mother's Day.
If it were just this case I would chalk it up to insensitivity. However this is part of a very consistent long term pattern. I will not allow this meanness to be spread via WaccoBB.net. And I don't want to have to parse out each of his many posts to see exactly how he is subtly attacking his mark.
I tried to ban him completely as ThePhiant for the identical problem. He managed to get back on the system and I finally welcomed him back and asked that he change his way. He has continued his same game. This time I am allowing him to post in the UnCensored category, which didn't exist before (he was one of the prime antagonists that prompted me to create that category).
If 6 months goes by and he doesn't try to sneak back on the moderated categories, I'll restore his full posting rights. I will be pleasantly surprised if he doesn't cause the same problems once again. Who knows, by then he may have found a new hobby!
Mrs. Wacco
05-26-2009, 08:18 PM
Shellebelle - what is the point of your post?
Clearly, Ms Terry is the only member of Wacco that needs banning, so what is the relevance of your question:
" Based on LOA (Law of Attraction), Karma and many other wisdoms Waccobb is a direct reflection of it's owner.
So those of you have decided that Ms Terry is not a good fit for your life stream I wonder . . . how is it that Waccobb is?"
In case you don't understand the concept, Ms Terry is banned because she/he DOES NOT reflect what Wacco is and what Barry aspires it to be.
And by the nature of your post, it is apparent you do not either.
Linda
...On the other hand I know Barry.
My truth is Barry has manifested this through his own actions; he is greater than a co-creater.
Has anyone besides maybe me asked "Why is Waccobb as it is?"
Based on LOA (Law of Attraction), Karma and many other wisdoms Waccobb is a direct reflection of it's owner.
So those of you have decided that Ms Terry is not a good fit for your life stream I wonder . . . how is it that Waccobb is?
Just hoping to get people thinking, questioning, and wondering about themselves a bit here.
And yes I posted this on Ms Terry's thread since otherwise she can't read what I have posted.
decterlove
05-26-2009, 09:38 PM
I doubt we've seen the last of ThePhiant/MsTerry/et al.
:burngrnbounce:
Well, I found Ms.Terry/Phiant occasionally sweet, intelligent and amusing but generally inflammatory and insulting and unrepentant.
And I applaud all boundaries settings, even those in Cyberspace...
However I strongly caution Waccobians to be on the alert for the following new handles such as:
signing off now...........just wanted to give ya a heads up, Barr!
ThePhiant
05-26-2009, 10:35 PM
It appears that everyone agrees that I am the same person as ThePhiant, I might as well come back as one.
MsTerry and people who have reacted to him have taken alot of my time over the years. I'm not interested in researching his thousands of posts. Long time readers will know that he has caused many a member to become frustrated and/or angry, often by an accumulation of many little jabs and distortions. There is good reason that he is the most ignored member on the list.
You mean I have a following?
The recent thread that proved to be straw that broke this camel's back was Sabrina's post about her husband of 20 years and father of her children being abducted by ICE (immigration) agents. Rather than having compassion for the family, or just being quiet, MsTerry chose to post (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/general-community/52354-urgent-help-needed-okili-nguebari-detained-ice-az.html#post89039) about how Okili's abduction was warranted (as if he knew everything involved).
No Barry, I pointed out the distortions in her stories.
Just like you are now calling his arrest an "abduction", that is not only emotional manipulation, IT IS A LIE!
Clearly such a post would get an emotional reaction, and it did (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/general-community/52354-urgent-help-needed-okili-nguebari-detained-ice-az.html#post89056). He had found his next "mark" to entertain himself, using his favorite technique of accusing people of having done wrong, by twisting their own words against them. Once he got a reaction, he pressed his case (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/general-community/52354-urgent-help-needed-okili-nguebari-detained-ice-az.html#post89067), redundantly, on Mother's Day.
No Barry, I was the one using facts, maybe cold, hard INS facts, but nevertheless REAL facts.
If it were just this case I would chalk it up to insensitivity. However this is part of a very consistent long term pattern. I will not allow this meanness to be spread via WaccoBB.net. And I don't want to have to parse out each of his many posts to see exactly how he is subtly attacking his mark.
When someone asks for help, my first reaction is; how can I help you, My second is; Am I enabling you or helping you.
I tried to ban him completely as ThePhiant for the identical problem. He managed to get back on the system and I finally welcomed him back and asked that he change his way. He has continued his same game. This time I am allowing him to post in the UnCensored category, which didn't exist before (he was one of the prime antagonists that prompted me to create that category).
You make it seem as if that is my home.
Mykil used to call it the doghouse though.
If 6 months goes by and he doesn't try to sneak back on the moderated categories, I'll restore his full posting rights.
Gosh Darn, you didn't tell me that beforehand.
I will be pleasantly surprised if he doesn't cause the same problems once again. Who knows, by then he may have found a new hobby!
Oh Yeah, what you'all gonna do when you don't have me to kick around anymore?
nurturetruth
05-27-2009, 03:04 AM
:hmmm:
feelin' a bit confused here~
I have to question the unconscious/conscious intention of posting this particular thread in the "wacco talk category"?
Was the intention to stir the pot, get feedback, or to start a discussion about this? Or was the intention to simply make an announcement?
I can say I do feel that a family in trauma deserves to be surrounded by vibrations of compassion and empathy regardless of the 'facts'. Which leads me to wonder why msterry got banned but his comments were not edited/removed. Perhaps it just takes too much work?
I too wish to learn more about what Wacco aspires to be.
A quote I stumbled upon recently:
"The definition/process of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting (or hoping for ) different results."
Skook
05-27-2009, 07:30 AM
You make some excellent points, and I too question the motives and method. And, why is MsTerry still posting as ThePhiant?
I'm also questioning the veracity of a 'community' that supposedly has over 9,400 members and only a dozen or two regular posters. I think it's time for me to move on.
:hmmm:
feelin' a bit confused here~
I have to question the unconscious/conscious intention of posting this particular thread in the "wacco talk category"?
Was the intention to stir the pot, get feedback, or to start a discussion about this? Or was the intention to simply make an announcement?
I can say I do feel that a family in trauma deserves to be surrounded by vibrations of compassion and empathy regardless of the 'facts'. Which leads me to wonder why msterry got banned but his comments were not edited/removed. Perhaps it just takes too much work?
I too wish to learn more about what Wacco aspires to be.
A quote I stumbled upon recently:
"The definition/process of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting (or hoping for ) different results."
oreokid
05-27-2009, 07:39 AM
Dear nurturetruth
I personally think what you are witnessing here is democracy in action. Free speech rules the day. No one edits or removes anyone’s comments. Say what you think, whenever you think it.
However, like a person that insists on telling vulgar jokes at a dinner party. A good host will wait until guests object, before exercising his duty to everyone, to clean it up. One never imposes their own view on anyone who doesn’t ask for it. It seems to me that barry waited until too many people complained for him to ignore it any longer. As a good host he did not censor or edit or tell someone what to say. Its either play nice or leave. Wacco is a place to be who you are, say what you think, but do it nicely. Part of growing up is acquiring the ability to get ones point across with demeaning or offending others. When these children desire to be the center of attention, and will go to any lengths to ensure they are, a responsible adult must step in and put things in order again.
Barry was simply informing us of his decision and resultant action. Would you prefer he do it in secret? I don’t. Honest people will tell you right up front what they are doing and why.
Wacco seems (to me) to be an evolving community without borders or limits. A common room where everyone can visit, chat, or whatever they like. The only rule I’ve noticed is one common to all civilized society: play nice, show respect to everyone.
If you can’t be nice, what else is one to do?
Braggi
05-27-2009, 11:25 AM
You make some excellent points, and I too question the motives and method. And, why is MsTerry still posting as ThePhiant?
I'm also questioning the veracity of a 'community' that supposedly has over 9,400 members and only a dozen or two regular posters. I think it's time for me to move on.
ThePhiant is probably already banned as I write this.
Skook, one of the main reasons there are so few posters is because people don't want to be belittled by small minded posters. The major one of those in recent years is MsTerry. Hopefully now that he's gone, some folks will be more willing to post.
Quite a few people "moved on" because of MsTerry. I know because a good handful of them wrote me offline to let me know. New people were especially vulnerable to MsTerry's hit pieces since they didn't know what to expect here. They'd make a post or two, MsTerry would stomp all over them, and they'd never post again.
-Jeff
nurturetruth
05-27-2009, 01:56 PM
Thank u Jeff for sharing ur perspectives and for adding ur energy to wacco.
Yet i still find myself eagerly awaiting to hear from Barry, (or Linda) what Wacco is 'aspiring to be'.
:artist:
:waccosmile:
CSummer
05-27-2009, 02:17 PM
First, I have to ask: Why are comments even possible under categories like Gen Comm, For sale, etc.? I feel baffled and exasperated as I try to make sense of this. (These and all feelings I may express are simply and totally my own responses.) It seems to me that any comments that could lead to discussion belong in a separate category for that purpose.
Second, what kind of psychological environment do we want to create or foster in a "conscious community," and how can we best do that? My experience is that we maximize what is possible in any group or relationship when everyone can feel safe, respected, accepted (welcome), cared for, valued, seen and heard, allowed to be who/as they are and express whatever is true for them. We don't create such an environment by being nice or polite, but by being both real and responsible, by expressing even difficult feelings in a caring, nonblaming and nonjudgmental way. We do it by expressing our "unarguable" truth, which is what we're experiencing and not what we imagine is true for someone else. Laying our trips on each other will never work for this purpose.
Is it possible that within Wacco there could be at least one or two categories in which there was some agreement about what kind of environment we want to co-create? Then, ideally, before posting for the first time, members would be required to agree to the guidelines/attitudes that are conducive to creating that environment.
Third, having a compassionate way of letting people know when their posts do not reflect agreed-upon guidelines or attitudes seems desirable. The person could then have the option of editing the post or having it moved to another category that has different (or no) guidelines.
It seems to me that a conscious, adult way of handling such things would be to have a button that allows anyone to "flag for review" any message they consider nonsupportive or otherwise outside the guidelines. A volunteer council could then review such posts and determine the best way to deal with them. This way we avoid the situation where people complain to one person who is responsible for warning, censoring or banning - the "dirty work," which is more the way we handled things in elementary school.
Conscious community leads us, ideally, toward more mature, responsible ways of expressing ourselves and dealing with issues. If we can learn to do this here, perhaps it will help us see more options for dealing with people and issues in the rest of our lives.
decterlove
05-27-2009, 07:54 PM
Quite a few people "moved on" because of MsTerry. I know because a good handful of them wrote me offline to let me know. New people were especially vulnerable to MsTerry's hit pieces since they didn't know what to expect here. They'd make a post or two, MsTerry would stomp all over them, and they'd never post again.
-Jeff
Well I sympathize with anyone that was that intimidated by MsTerriant but isn't the IGNORE button always available to anyone who doesn't like the consistent tone/values/attitude of any wacco member. I've used once or twice myself and it worked fine for a poster that offended my sensibilities.
Did you mention this option to those individuals who decided not to post again, Jeff?
The thing about Missiantphi is simply that shehe's one pretty lightweight abeit annoying at times participant in this pretty neat forum. Anyone who has tried to participate in some of Craigslist forums like their flag forum or the pc users forum has probably been exposed to an exponentially more nasty and toxic consistent set of responses when asking most simple question. I've been jumped on in my most astonishing ways on some of the Craigslist forums and never bother going on them again. If I have a question about ps for example I just frame a google search in the follwoing way
"forum "running scripts"
and I find other forums that are still certified cybernazi free...
So my overall feeling is that Phianterry is really just a smart little pimple on a very big dimple and we should all just keep it simple.
there are bigger problems in the world right now....I mean who would you rather have dinner with tomorrow.....MsTerriant or Kim Jong-il?
Lighten up Fellow Waccobbians....it's later than you think............
Barry
05-27-2009, 07:58 PM
A few comments on some previous posts:
First regarding the post from ThePhiant (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccotalk/53272-keeping-waccobb-net-safe.html#post90187) (MsTerry's former username) I don't know how that account became unbanned, but it's banned now. I suppose it was only fair that he got one last post outside of UnCensored.
:hmmm:
feelin' a bit confused here~
I have to question the unconscious/conscious intention of posting this particular thread in the "wacco talk category"?
Was the intention to stir the pot, get feedback, or to start a discussion about this? Or was the intention to simply make an announcement?
I can say I do feel that a family in trauma deserves to be surrounded by vibrations of compassion and empathy regardless of the 'facts'. Which leads me to wonder why msterry got banned but his comments were not edited/removed. Perhaps it just takes too much work?
My intention was to make an announcement. I knew for sure that it would instigate a discussion so I posted it in WaccoTalk. I did not remove his prior posts because that would disrupt the continuum of the threads.
I too wish to learn more about what Wacco aspires to be. See my recent post: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccotalk/53440-waccobb-net-community-values.html
First, I have to ask: Why are comments even possible under categories like Gen Comm, For sale, etc.? Comments (replies) are not possible in For Sale. I do allow comments in General Community and let the thread stay there for a while if I feel it is of general interest and the discussion stays on topic. I generally move it to WaccoTalk if it really gets going. I think this makes the system more responsive.
Second, what kind of psychological environment do we want to create or foster in a "conscious community," and how can we best do that? My experience is that we maximize what is possible in any group or relationship when everyone can feel safe, respected, accepted (welcome), cared for, valued, seen and heard, allowed to be who/as they are and express whatever is true for them. We don't create such an environment by being nice or polite, but by being both real and responsible, by expressing even difficult feelings in a caring, nonblaming and nonjudgmental way. We do it by expressing our "unarguable" truth, which is what we're experiencing and not what we imagine is true for someone else. Laying our trips on each other will never work for this purpose.
Is it possible that within Wacco there could be at least one or two categories in which there was some agreement about what kind of environment we want to co-create? Then, ideally, before posting for the first time, members would be required to agree to the guidelines/attitudes that are conducive to creating that environment. I have tried to address this in my post about https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccotalk/53440-waccobb-net-community-values.html .
When people register they are asked to read the "WaccoBB.net Rules" that requires you to check the box that says "I have read, and agree to abide by the WaccoBB rules"? Did you actually read them? If so, my guess is that you are in the minority. For what's its worth, I will be upgrading the text in that box shortly.
Users are sent an email upon registration with a link to the posting guidelines. OTOH, if you think that will fix all problems, you are kidding yourself.
Third, having a compassionate way of letting people know when their posts do not reflect agreed-upon guidelines or attitudes seems desirable. The person could then have the option of editing the post or having it moved to another category that has different (or no) guidelines.
It seems to me that a conscious, adult way of handling such things would be to have a button that allows anyone to "flag for review" any message they consider nonsupportive or otherwise outside the guidelines. A volunteer council could then review such posts and determine the best way to deal with them. This way we avoid the situation where people complain to one person who is responsible for warning, censoring or banning - the "dirty work," which is more the way we handled things in elementary school. As I've stated in other posts, I generally warn people privately first. I have asked for people to help moderate WaccoTalk (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccotalk/31021-moderation-waccotalk.html)and I have gotten no takers. Help would be appreciated. There is a flagging system (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccotalk/31021-moderation-waccotalk.html) in place and it is occaisionally used. Granted it could be upgraded and promoted more. I hope to do that in a future rev of system.
What is used more often, and works just fine, is for people to contact me when they see a problem. Automatic systems, such as Craigslists', have their own problems (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccoreader/35699-craigslists-dark-side-flagging.html). This is one of the benefits of a moderated system.
shellebelle
05-28-2009, 11:11 PM
Hi Lucky, I see you are new; welcome to our conscious and progressive jungle.
I do hope you get a chance to know Barry as well as the other wonderful people of Wacco and create your own personal definition of wacco. I'd suggest the next Wacco event but I don't think there has been anything since prior to the elections.
I do think you have some misinformation.
To the best of my knowledge Linda and Barry aren't married. She has just taken on the moniker {Self projection (and maybe some expectations with attachments she has for their relationship) versus self reflection, truth and transparency. It happens to us all.}. They were engaged a few months ago; I believe (I think it was announced here); after 5 years of dating and they plan a wedding in another 5; again from what I hear.
They do not live together either last I knew. Linda lives and works in Marin. And Barry lives and works in Sebastopol though he seemingly has the ability to travel a bit since he's a bit more virtual. I do sporadically see them around town but their joined presence could be greater; I am so butterflying I easily miss things that don't sparkle.
And I did respond to Linda privately. Obviously she does not feel a need to withdraw her inimical words.
I am not sure yet I want to fully disclose the words I shared with her at this time but I will share this:
We did in essence find agreement
Note:
Linda spoke of aspiration Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px inset ;"> In case you don't understand the concept, Ms Terry is banned because she/he DOES NOT reflect what Wacco is and what Barry aspires it to be. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
thus Linda admitted that Ms Terry is an accurate reflection, criticism, view, consideration, contemplation, censure, study, thinking, and indeed ruminate of Barry.
~~~~~
Lucky again welcome. We are an oddball assortment it's true and we fight like family so we must actually care.
~~~~~
Good for you for standing up for your husband, after all you live with him and know him best!
It's just so awful what people will say about each other.
nurturetruth
05-29-2009, 12:08 AM
I love my reflection (s)
and the process of reflection
especially
with a wide range of beautiful diverse vibrations
sometimes comfortable
other times uncomfortable
being flexible helps the dance
I perhaps need more yoga!
but for now my friends, ducking out of this forum
for all of a sudden I don't feel "safe"
:chillpill:
shellebelle
05-29-2009, 08:04 AM
There are times where watching the dance from the sidelines is good.
It is true this dance has become a Paso Doble.
It is often better to watch a Paso Doble than to participate.
For me the Paso Doble is the greatest of all dances. It is passion, love, anger and power flowing into a beautiful communication of a story. For those who have not heard of it the description is below from wiki. (Pasodoble is based on music played at bullfights (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullfighting) during the bullfighters' entrance (paseo) or during the passes (faena) just before the kill. The leader of this dance plays the part of the matador (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matador). The follower generally plays the part of the matador's cape, but can also represent the bull or a flamenco (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco) dancer in some figures. Its origin dates back to a French military march with the name ”Paso Redoble“. This was a fast paced march and that is why this is a fast paced Latin American dance which was modeled after the Spanish bull fight. Because of its inherently choreographed tradition, ballroom Paso Doble for the most part danced only competitively, almost never socially — or at least not without sticking to some sort of previously-learned routine. This said, in Spain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain), France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France), Vietnam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam), Colombia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombia)Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) to the west of the river Rhine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine), it is danced socially as a lead (not choreographed) dance.)
This is a socially lead (community demanded) paso doble telling the story in this case of matador (Barry) dancing with the bull (Ms Terry) we the community are in truth the audience to this dance. Yet it is also the story of the matador failing to kill the bull; which will bring great shame and dishonor to the matador. Obviously in a Paso Doble there is no kill yet a poor performance of a Paso Doble tells one much about the skill of the dancers.
I love my reflection (s)
and the process of reflection
especially
with a wide range of beautiful diverse vibrations
sometimes comfortable
other times uncomfortable
being flexible helps the dance
I perhaps need more yoga!
but for now my friends, ducking out of this forum
for all of a sudden I don't feel "safe"
:chillpill:
lynn
05-29-2009, 04:01 PM
Well, I'm thinkin' like 'dectorlove' here...
I haven't been on this board that much, but any troll...even the worst kind, isn't even close to being a 'tyrant'...Maybe an assh*le, and mean or stupid...but that's about it...bein' a 'tyrant' is a whole 'nother pretty nasty ballgame...
dector...{"The thing about Missiantphi is simply that shehe's one pretty lightweight abeit annoying at times participant in this pretty neat forum. "}...
...{"So my overall feeling is that Phianterry is really just a smart little pimple on a very big dimple and we should all just keep it simple."}
Ha!...Cute
Barry
05-29-2009, 05:58 PM
Well, if it’s a Paso Doble you want (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccotalk/53272-keeping-waccobb-net-safe.html#post90404), Shellebelle, then it’s a Paso Doble you’ll get.
For whatever reason, you have been gunning for me for a while now. I’ve tried to ignore your taunts but that hasn’t worked. It’s time to dispatch you.
You’re already in serious violation of the fundamental guideline of WaccoBB.net, (treating each other with respect), but I’ll allow this to play out and so that you are consumed by your own vitriol.
If you are in fact correct that each of the posts from the over 9,000 members on WaccoBB.net is somehow a personal reflection of me:
... My truth is Barry has manifested this through his own actions; he is greater than a co-creater.
Has anyone besides maybe me asked "Why is Waccobb as it is?"
Based on LOA (Law of Attraction), Karma and many other wisdoms Waccobb is a direct reflection of it's owner. ...
I must say that something is clearly off in my energy to have "manifested" the likes of your posts:
To the best of my knowledge Linda and Barry aren't married. She has just taken on the moniker {Self projection (and maybe some expectations with attachments she has for their relationship) versus self reflection, truth and transparency. It happens to us all.}.
...
I do sporadically see them around town but their joined presence could be greater; I am so butterflying I easily miss things that don't sparkle.
Sorry folks! Maybe it was something I ate...Talk about "projection" and self-aggrandizement! Sheeesh!
But, perhaps you are right. Just as garden is a direct reflection of its gardener. A gardener must ensure the garden has all it needs to flourish, sunshine (love) nutrients (guidelines) and water, as well as the removal noxious weeds. So to the extent I have been too lax and have allowed some weeds to get established, the current harsh environment is of my “making”.
I’m going to fix that now.
I’ve already removed MsTerry for the second time. Some weeds take a sustained effort to eradicate or contain. I am now resolved to do so.
And now you, Shellebelle, have volunteered to be next, which is just as well. Thanks for stepping up!
- - -
While I was content to ignore your latest attack, though it clearly contributed to the negativity and un-safety that I am now trying to resolve, my beloved fiancé, Linda (Mrs. Wacco), was not (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccotalk/53272-keeping-waccobb-net-safe.html#post90172).
And I did respond to Linda privately. Obviously she does not feel a need to withdraw her inimical words.
Your reply to Linda’s measured public response was attempt to blackmail her to retract her post, with the threat of posting something with such maliciousness the likes of which I have never seen before, in fact or fiction. It’s a rant full of hearsay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay), projections and hyperbole. “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned” indeed!
This is grounds for immediate banning:
5) BE RESPECTFUL: You are welcome to disagree with someone but you may not attack them in any way, either publicly or privately. This includes slurs against population groups. Also, any private email should remain private unless you have the author's permission to post it. If you receive inappropriate private email in response to your post on WaccoBB.net, please Contact Us.This is the most flagrant violation I have seen yet. You are no longer welcome here.
However, since I am the ultimate target of your fury, rather than another member (even though you sent it to Linda in an attempt to inflict as much pain as possible between us) I will call you on it. Go ahead and post it. Be transparent. Let everybody see how you conduct yourself. Post it exactly how you sent it.
I am not sure yet I want to fully disclose the words I shared with her at this time …
Now’s the time. Take your best shot. Have your day in the spotlight. Let all that puss spill out. I have nothing to fear, even though I have my flaws.
I’ll reply and I’ll allow you another reply and then you are out of here.
I’ll turn the tables on you. I will construe anything short of one of these actions:
- posting exactly what you sent to Linda in full
- a full public apology
- leaving WaccoBB.net on your own accord
…as your permission for me to post what you sent to Linda.
"Mad" Miles
05-29-2009, 06:43 PM
Barry, Mrs. Wacco, Everybody,
I was gobsmacked when I read Shellebelle's post describing your: relationship, locations of where you live, and speculating as to motivations for screen names and the personal dynamic between you.
It is such an incredible violation of any community's standards. It's gossip and slander. And it goes without saying that it was a complete violation of waccobb.net guidelines.
The context of prior posts to which she was responding made it clear that she was motivated by spite and malice.
I was waiting at least twenty-four hours to say what I thought, and to give room for others to reply first (in spite of my active role on this board, I try not to use up all of the oxygen in the room, even if to some it may appear that I do).
Since you have now so appropriately replied, I've chosen not to wait any longer to weigh in.
I can't imagine what motivated Shellebelle to do this. Other than the motivations I've already given.
A couple of hours ago I checked both Barry and Mrs. Wacco's user profiles to see what they/you had chosen to reveal about them/yourselves. I noted that none of what Shellebelle was regurgitating was to found in those profiles.
I read this board regularly and thoroughly. Prior to her post, all I knew about your relationship was that it was affectionate, passionate and happy. No real personal details.
To blurt out what she has, was such a violation that I was shocked, and it takes a lot to shock me.
I choose to be circumspect about my own personal habits and relationships when I post anywhere online. I know some of you may be laughing at that statement. But how many have noticed my lack of participation in discussions of sexuality, relationships and recreational activities of a potentially criminal nature?
I may wear my heart on my sleeve about world events, politics and human rights, but I keep what I do with friends and family private. This is not because I'm a prude, or feel any guilt. It's because that stuff is nobody else's business, other than those directly involved.
To start sharing the personal details of someone's life, without paramount necessary reasons of harm prevention or reduction, and without their permission? Uh, in some societies that would result in the harshest of sanctions. I'll leave speculation as to what I'm referring to, to you, the reader.
If Shellebelle felt compelled to correct the assumption that Barry and Linda are married, all she had to write was, "they're not married." That would have been pushy and none of her business, but it wouldn't have constituted the total, blatant and unforgivable violation of privacy that was her actual post.
Won't miss her, at all,
"Mad" Miles
:burngrnbounce:
nurturetruth
05-29-2009, 11:23 PM
I ducked back in. Is it safe?
In truth, if I were a newcomer, this particular thread would be just enough to turn me off from waccobb. No Joke!
From going back and re-reading this thread, one thing remains clear to me..
the need to respect and be respected has not been met.
I will offer the role of the mirror here:
I note a previous thread started by Barry.
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccotalk/13970-what-conscious.html
"are we present? (not in our head, reliving some past childhood trauma, projecting fears or dreams)
are we witnessing?
"Cultivating an awareness that is separate from ego . An experience where we can just observe exactly "what is".
are we speaking our truth respectfully?
"saying 'what is' and being authentic while honoring everybody and their truths, even if we disagree" (and could we do this perhaps without blame/judgment? ~ which there is ALOT of that going on ehre in my perception from where i am observing/witnessing. Perhaps i am the one passing a judgment or evaluation?)
Open hearted / undefended
are we being emotionally available and compassionate while not easily going into a defensive/resistive posture?"
I enjoyed Diablo's response of : "If we ALL were practicing what we were preaching, there wouldn't be a need to control others....."
May I also add, that I love practicing!?!?
As Barry once stated, "it's more difficult to be open and compassionate."
Oreokid stated previously in here about the wonderful world of Wacco:
"The only rule I’ve noticed is one common to all civilized society:
play nice, show respect to everyone. "
I can only imagine that early on in this thread, 'being respectful' and creating a respectful environment in which to 'play in ' was a BIG need for many.
I reflect :
Was the need for respect met from the get go ?
At what point did the thread feel like it shifted gears?
Can we imagine "tone" in our typed out words?
no, but one can imagine or even feel /sense energy behind the words.
It is in my opinion/observation that though the need for respect and respectful environment was acknowledged .... that this thread early on (around 3 days ago) got side tracked and before we knew it... defenses and ego's were up and going. no blame here ..just observing.
the questions i ponder on:
Are we aware and conscious of our ego self and when we go into it ?
Can we identify when we are in 'reaction' mode versus 'responsive' mode and conscious of it?
I am aware that my whole body feels different when I find myself responding versus being reactive.
i went to a friends bbq party recently.
I felt and observed myself mainly in reactive - ego mode.
I look forward to bringing more of myself into community.
Thus, a richer experience is possible with my relations in my community!
Keep it 'safe' u cowboys/cowgirls!
(whatever 'safe' means to you!)
:yinyang:
I'm sorry to hear about all this infighting, and even more sorry to see all the anger that is oozing out from underneath all those PC posts.
ChristineL
05-30-2009, 12:27 AM
I don't understand the need to disparage Linda and Barry's relationship. I've known married couples who live apart, some who have had cerenomies without benefit of a government marriage certificate, and other variations that may not meet your criteria for being married.
"Their joined presence could be greater" What the heck does that mean? I found your judgements regarding their relationship offensive and a bit cruel.
Hi Lucky, I see you are new; welcome to our conscious and progressive jungle.
I do hope you get a chance to know Barry as well as the other wonderful people of Wacco and create your own personal definition of wacco. I'd suggest the next Wacco event but I don't think there has been anything since prior to the elections.
I do think you have some misinformation.
To the best of my knowledge Linda and Barry aren't married. She has just taken on the moniker {Self projection (and maybe some expectations with attachments she has for their relationship) versus self reflection, truth and transparency. It happens to us all.}. They were engaged a few months ago; I believe (I think it was announced here); after 5 years of dating and they plan a wedding in another 5; again from what I hear.
They do not live together either last I knew. Linda lives and works in Marin. And Barry lives and works in Sebastopol though he seemingly has the ability to travel a bit since he's a bit more virtual. I do sporadically see them around town but their joined presence could be greater; I am so butterflying I easily miss things that don't sparkle.
And I did respond to Linda privately. Obviously she does not feel a need to withdraw her inimical words.
I am not sure yet I want to fully disclose the words I shared with her at this time but I will share this:
We did in essence find agreement
Note:
Linda spoke of aspiration Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">In case you don't understand the concept, Ms Terry is banned because she/he DOES NOT reflect what Wacco is and what Barry aspires it to be. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
thus Linda admitted that Ms Terry is an accurate reflection, criticism, view, consideration, contemplation, censure, study, thinking, and indeed ruminate of Barry.
~~~~~
Lucky again welcome. We are an oddball assortment it's true and we fight like family so we must actually care.
~~~~~
someguy
05-30-2009, 09:08 AM
Oh lordy..... My fears of posting on waccobb are all coming back to me now.
I feel bad for you Barry. Youre really smart and you have a really great idea with waccobb and all, but I can't help but think that this "conscious community" will never work. It seems to me, that the people who participate here think of themselves as "conscious" but are in fact, just as mentally conditioned as everyone else, and damn stubborn I might add.
If waccobb is ever going to run smoothly, people need to get off their high horses and admit that they dont know everything! If everyone were to know that in fact, they cant possibly know everything, then we could have an actual intelligent, logical discussion. I think thats what "conscious" means, so stop being so unconscious everybody!!!!!
Thanks.
someguy
05-30-2009, 09:23 AM
Oh lordy..... My fears of posting on waccobb are all coming back to me now.
I feel bad for you Barry. Youre really smart and you have a really great idea with waccobb and all, but I can't help but think that this "conscious community" will never work. It seems to me, that the people who participate here think of themselves as "conscious" but are in fact, just as mentally conditioned as everyone else, and damn stubborn I might add.
If waccobb is ever going to run smoothly, people need to get off their high horses and admit that they dont know everything! If everyone were to know that in fact, they cant possibly know everything, then we could have an actual intelligent, logical discussion. I think thats what "conscious" means, so stop being so unconscious everybody!!!!!
Thanks.
What are you giving me gratitude for MsTerry? That post is as much directed towards you as anyone else on this website. You are the most stubborn, disrespectful, divisive person on this website. You have ill intentions and clearly enjoy hurting others. People like you, need to really read what I just wrote and actually understand it, rather than just giving gratitude.
Absolutamente loquisimo.:hmmm:
Juggledude
05-30-2009, 02:13 PM
Oh lordy..... My fears of posting on waccobb are all coming back to me now.
I feel bad for you Barry. Youre really smart and you have a really great idea with waccobb and all, but I can't help but think that this "conscious community" will never work.
Oh contraire, it is working. Bringing light and deeper understanding to our selves, our community, our consciousness... what more could we ask for?
It seems to me, that the people who participate here think of themselves as "conscious" but are in fact, just as mentally conditioned as everyone else, and damn stubborn I might add. I like this point immensely. We are all 'mentally conditioned' by our experiences, there's just no way around that fact in this human condition. What we do with that conditioning, what actions we put out to the rest of the world, therein lies the crux.
If waccobb is ever going to run smoothly, people need to get off their high horses and admit that they dont know everything! If everyone were to know that in fact, they cant possibly know everything, then we could have an actual intelligent, logical discussion. I think thats what "conscious" means, so stop being so unconscious everybody!!!!!
Thanks.A nice game plan, but perhaps a little oversimplified. As complex as any one human is, the notion of community is exponentially more complex. I reiterate my concept that as far as I understand what a community "does" in order to be classified as "working", the waccobb.net community is not only "working" but perhaps even excelling. Smoothly? what's that? In encompassing the duality of reality, knowing that there can be no light without darkness, that love and pain are the twin wings of the soul, it seems like "smoothly" might be something to be dreaded, not aspired to!
As far as the banning goes, Barry, I fully support you in your choices, and concur with your process. I believe you are doing an excellent and thankless job of moderating and holding safe space for this community, and I am frankly appalled at both the content and nature of the posts in question. Keep up the good work.
Royce
judi jewel
05-30-2009, 08:52 PM
I personally feel sad about Msterry being banned.
While Msterry may not have shown compassion in the Okili thread, and while he may not be fully informed about how inhuman these immigration jails are, he was still expressing his viewpoints. According to the Constitution, (though a piece of paper) we have the right to free speech in our opinion.
The Constitution recognizes Universal Law, that we have the birth right to free speech and our opinions.
Yes , Msterry may have been a "button pusher" but without us having the buttons/triggers already there, he would not have been able to push them.
There will always be a button pusher somewhere as long as we have 'triggers'. Its in my opinion we just learn how to deal with these types of people and our triggers.
I feel this whole issue on this thread is not about Msterry OR keeping wacco safe as it started off to be , but that there are OBVIOUS unresolved "old energies" coming into play here.
And the energetic charge is intense!
It feels yucky and kind of reminds me of grammer school.
It is in my opinion that this type of "old energy" charge does not belong on the forum.
It is my wish you guys and gals would clear this old energy and work this out through private emails , through face to face non-violent communication or some other form of compassionate communication however possible.
Peace and Love,
Judy
Vet-To-Pet
05-30-2009, 10:49 PM
I was shocked to see the unleashed anger & venom spewed from shellebelle's post about Barry & his partner. It was as if a cork had released a really pissed off genie from a bottle, where the anger/frustration/whatever (?) had been fermenting for awhile---who knows how long & what blew the cork off? I'm sorry for those who were directly hurt by what she wrote (some of which was just weird & didn't make sense, at least to me...).
On the other hand, I have to admit that I feel, personally, like I've been validated in a way that very few people would know about, but which was strange & off-putting for me a few months ago. I posted something, or replied to a post (I can't even remember---that's how "important" the topic was...), and shellebelle replied as if I'd personally smeared her (literally) with excrement & then told everyone what a "shitty" person she was. I mean, she laid into me as if I'd said that slavery should be reinstated & child labor laws were unnecessary (sort of; I'm making a comparison here). She also brought up an older posting that was totally unrelated to the current one, just to kick me in the butt again about that topic. I was somewhat freaked about the 'energetic' reply she posted to me, and I ended up apologizing for "taking her bait", which is now what I think might have been the case. I don't know, I really don't, but I feel relieved that my "radar" for picking up on "people who are loose canons" had been more accurate than I'd thought after that encounter with her outbreaks. Bipolar? Therapy would certainly be a good place to start when someone is that angry & confused about who her friends are, as well as many other things.
I'll be around for one more week, then driving off into the sunrise to Athens, GA, on June 6th. Moving/living here for the past three years has been difficult in a few emotionally painful ways, the worst being the diagnosis & terminal ovarian cancer of my sister-in-love, who was a truly inspirational human being since the time I met her 25 years before her death. I'm pretty sure the "reason" I made my (?) decision to move here right before her diagnosis was so that I'd be able to spend as much time as I did over the following 17 months before her death. I'm extremely grateful that I had all those months right here with her, rather than being in Georgia during her final time on this planet...but it's time to return to where my own special network of friends are, my "peeps", who are, not surprisingly, mostly from places other than the Southeast---we seem to be "drawn" to each other, mixed up in the college town of thousands of folks from all over the country, we manage to find each other, and form bonds that are still tight---I'm happy to be going back to Athens, which is something I NEVER thought I'd ever say and mean so much! You folks helped me get through some of the painful time here, but I can't stay here, it's too painful & WAY too expensive!! She-yut!! (Southernese---many one-syllable words are drawn out into two syllables. Now I'll have to brush up all over again!).
Peace, Happy trails, Smiles~
Paula/Vet-To-Pet
Braggi
05-31-2009, 08:26 AM
I personally feel sad about Msterry being banned. ...
One way to tell a narcissist is to note that they are the center of attention and discussion even when they're not present.
-Jeff
Mrs. Wacco
05-31-2009, 09:57 AM
To all who have responded - thanks for everyone's support, public and private. Thanks also for everyone's input relative to the nature of Barry's post and the issue of respectful communication.
This leads me to ask: how to respond 100% respectfully while someone is attacking, poking, judging, pick your poison. I know there's ignore but sometimes that doesn't fulfill the need for self-respect.
I've not responded to Shellebelle thru this last episode and Barry said all that needed to be said (thank you honey!) His response is most definitely strong and pointed and exposes his/our authentic reaction to her; sometimes a person just has to take a stand. I am very proud that Barry chose to take an unequivocal stand for himself, me, and Wacco.
How to do that otherwise so that you get the desired result and the community at large is OK? I ask not because Barry should have done it another way but he certainly could have.
There are always different reasons why we say: to just feel good without a particular outcome, to clear the air, to defend, to attack, to share knowledge, to get a reaction, to get something to stop, to (maybe) get someone to change a behavior, to engender understanding, etc. The goal of why we're saying informs how we say.
In this case, the thread started with Barry announcing the banning of Ms Terry. After re-reading all of it, it seems that it went sideways when Shellebelle offered the idea that Ms Terry reflected Barry, my response (was it disrespectful?), and then her response to Lucky, not to mention her private post to me.
I am not trying to put anyone on the spot, but what would a respectful response sound like with the goals of:
calling her on her disrespect. sorry, it's unacceptable.
calling her bluff - she threatened me and essentially Barry, her real target, in her private post. A private response would not have achieved this.
have her speak her truth of why she responds as she does - a little self reflection and transparency.
banning her and why it was appropriate to ban her.I'd be very surprised if we ever saw #3; we achieved the others, at least for now. However, if there's a better way to have done it, I'm all ears and perhaps we can all learn something. My request is for concrete examples - how we learn.
Thanks
Linda
I ducked back in. Is it safe?
In truth, if I were a newcomer, this particular thread would be just enough to turn me off from waccobb. No Joke!
From going back and re-reading this thread, one thing remains clear to me..
the need to respect and be respected has not been met.
I will offer the role of the mirror here:
I note a previous thread started by Barry.
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccotalk/13970-what-conscious.html
"are we present? (not in our head, reliving some past childhood trauma, projecting fears or dreams)
are we witnessing?
"Cultivating an awareness that is separate from ego . An experience where we can just observe exactly "what is".
are we speaking our truth respectfully?
"saying 'what is' and being authentic while honoring everybody and their truths, even if we disagree" (and could we do this perhaps without blame/judgment? ~ which there is ALOT of that going on ehre in my perception from where i am observing/witnessing. Perhaps i am the one passing a judgment or evaluation?)
Open hearted / undefended
are we being emotionally available and compassionate while not easily going into a defensive/resistive posture?"
I enjoyed Diablo's response of : "If we ALL were practicing what we were preaching, there wouldn't be a need to control others....."
May I also add, that I love practicing!?!?
As Barry once stated, "it's more difficult to be open and compassionate."
Oreokid stated previously in here about the wonderful world of Wacco:
"The only rule I’ve noticed is one common to all civilized society:
play nice, show respect to everyone. "
I can only imagine that early on in this thread, 'being respectful' and creating a respectful environment in which to 'play in ' was a BIG need for many.
I reflect :
Was the need for respect met from the get go ?
At what point did the thread feel like it shifted gears?
Can we imagine "tone" in our typed out words?
no, but one can imagine or even feel /sense energy behind the words.
It is in my opinion/observation that though the need for respect and respectful environment was acknowledged .... that this thread early on (around 3 days ago) got side tracked and before we knew it... defenses and ego's were up and going. no blame here ..just observing.
the questions i ponder on:
Are we aware and conscious of our ego self and when we go into it ?
Can we identify when we are in 'reaction' mode versus 'responsive' mode and conscious of it?
I am aware that my whole body feels different when I find myself responding versus being reactive.
i went to a friends bbq party recently.
I felt and observed myself mainly in reactive - ego mode.
I look forward to bringing more of myself into community.
Thus, a richer experience is possible with my relations in my community!
Keep it 'safe' u cowboys/cowgirls!
(whatever 'safe' means to you!)
:yinyang:
babaruss
05-31-2009, 09:54 PM
The trick to answering your question ( a trick question ?) may be: respond only to that which is the truth. If there is no truth then there can be no response. Even the meanest, and angriest, of us manage to get a piece of the truth in our posts (even if it is a very limited truth).
There will always be something in the 'attack' which can give us latitude to offer the attacker an alternative route out of that attack mode.
I sometimes get caught in either attack mode, or defensive mode, (both probably the same) and almost always it is because something triggers fear...fear triggers all the nastiness which follows.
My hope is that we can find ways to allow people to be who they are, as they are, because really they don't have any choice in the matter do they ?
An asleep person isn't going to wake up just because we think he/she should.
First, I must recognize myself to have/be a problem before I can deal with it.
Gradually and incrementally I have been developing awareness, and understanding.
I'm hoping to grow into a better way of thinking, acting, being,...but kicking me out of the pool is not going to help me improve my swimming is it ?
I think preferring security and safety over working things out, or at least closer to a healthier conclusion, is not community but rather a barrier to developing community.
Risks must be taken if we are to inclusive.
I suspect it only the most fragile among us who will not gain in personal growth through dealing with difficult people.
Babaruss
I applaud M(r)s Wacco effort to ask the question; "How to respond respectfully to someone who is disrespectful", especially in the light that a frequent poster(s) still feels the need to beat a dead (banned) horse, literally.
Mrs. Wacco
05-31-2009, 10:45 PM
Babaruss - No trick question. What I was looking for was an explicit answer, as in an example with words in direct response to Shelle's post that would achieve the goals I outlined.
You would "offer the attacker an alternate route out of the attack mode;" what words would you use to achieve that? What would "working things out" sound like?
I'm not trying to put you on the spot but I am a concrete kinda girl. I like to work with tangibles. (Probably why I like to build things). Theory is great but unless it can be applied to real life, it's only theory. I'm not saying I disagree with what you propose but how to achieve?
Just a few comments on this statement:
"My hope is that we can find ways to allow people to be who they are, as they are, because really they don't have any choice in the matter do they ?"
I'm all for people being who they are - my #1 rule. But if you choose to make a mess in the world, there are consequences.
There is always choice in the matter, unless you are psychotic, mentally deficient, or just a blockhead.:hmmm:(I've worked with those populations and was married to a blockhead - I am speaking from experience). It's why we choose to develop our awareness, so we make (hopefully) better choices as we go thru life. It's the basis of Law of Attraction, the Secret, What the Bleep....you are your reality and you actually have a say in the matter.
In the context of this board, words do not come flying out of anyone without choice. I carefully chose everyone one of these words just as you chose yours. I would imagine it's the same for others, whether the intentions are to do good or to do harm.
Linda
babaruss
05-31-2009, 11:26 PM
I'll have to go back to the part of looking for some truth...a common area of possible agreement, and focus on that to the exclusion of all else.
Please keep in mind that I am an uneducated, semi conscious, human being trying to find healthier ways to deal with unhealthy situations.
If you go into some of my earlier posts you will readily see I'm a veritable stumble bum where it comes to actualizing healthier responses.
If I fail to attack a person who I perceive as attacking me, I may be at the beginning stages of "working things out".
As for offering an 'alternative route'..hey many times I'm jumped down someones throat on this forum, and had people come back at me in loving, instructive, ways (which not once found fault in what I said) but rather offered insight and understanding which was sorely needed.
It may not be that anything I suggest will work for a "concrete kinda gal"
because flexibility and constant shifting away from self are what is required when dealing with difficult people.
You use the word 'choose' as an accusation (or if I wish to be kinder) as an assumption.
I used the word asleep for a purpose.
Consciousness means just that..if you are not conscious/aware of where you are mentally/emotionally/psychologically then you are not awake.
Who judges, or attacks sleeping people ? Surely those who attack people who are not conscious are themselves asleep.
That miserable book 'A Course in Miracles' had a couple useful things in it. One was a question..."how can I see this in a different way ?" which for me was a reminder that the same old responses just will not apply if you want new results. In this case shutting someone out. Please note that whether you choose to ban someone, or to include them is of no real matter to me. I'm just weighing in thoughts and ideas on the matter.
The other line in that book was ..."if it is not love then it is a request for love".
So perhaps one can try meeting anger with love...bywords possibly being acceptance/tolerance/understanding.
Now back to the idea of choosing. one description of a person is 'the totality of their life experiences to date' ...and if those experiences do not include self awareness, self understanding, self love (which must exist prior to loving others) then where does this matter of 'choice' come in ?
I'll agree with you as far as 'consequences' go....being asleep does not exempt a person from consequences.
I'm going to leave your negative descriptive terms for people who do not match your particular expectations out of this post..as it leads nowhere
and somewhat puts you in a less than admirable light... as far as being a conscious person.
'Imagining things you do to be the same as others' ...is not very useful here either.
We are after all, trying to maintain community, and community consists of people who are at all levels of awareness (or lack there of) and may never match our expectations, or desires.
Babaruss
Babaruss - No trick question. What I was looking for was an explicit answer, as in an example with words in direct response to Shelle's post that would achieve the goals I outlined.
You would "offer the attacker an alternate route out of the attack mode;" what words would you use to achieve that? What would "working things out" sound like?
I'm not trying to put you on the spot but I am a concrete kinda girl. I like to work with tangibles. (Probably why I like to build things). Theory is great but unless it can be applied to real life, it's only theory. I'm not saying I disagree with what you propose but how to achieve?
Just a few comments on this statement:
"My hope is that we can find ways to allow people to be who they are, as they are, because really they don't have any choice in the matter do they ?"
I'm all for people being who they are - my #1 rule. But if you choose to make a mess in the world, there are consequences.
There is always choice in the matter, unless you are psychotic, mentally deficient, or just a blockhead.:hmmm:(I've worked with those populations and was married to a blockhead - I am speaking from experience). It's why we choose to develop our awareness, so we make (hopefully) better choices as we go thru life. It's the basis of Law of Attraction, the Secret, What the Bleep....you are your reality and you actually have a say in the matter.
In the context of this board, words do not come flying out of anyone without choice. I carefully chose everyone one of these words just as you chose yours. I would imagine it's the same for others, whether the intentions are to do good or to do harm.
Linda
Barry
06-01-2009, 12:11 AM
Babaruss et al (https://www.thefreedictionary.com/et+al.),
What Linda is requesting is that you post exactly what you would have posted, fully written out, for handling Shellebelle if you were in my position and her blackmail attempt was directed against you.
Feel free to include some comments before and/or after the full text of your post.
So for instance, your reply might look like:
I think the best way to deal with this situation is to be direct:
--- BEGIN PROPOSED POST ---
I am banning Shellebelle for a serious violation of our policy concerning innappropriate private replies to public posts.
--- END PROPOSED POST ---I look forward to seeing your versions! I hope to learn a trick or two! I'd love to find some assistant moderators to help in reviewing the discussions here.
babaruss
06-01-2009, 12:28 AM
I was fairly certain I gave a reasonable response to Linda's questions.
I was speaking in a general way about what I thought might be a conscious response to the difficult people who post on this forum.
There is no concrete way to deal with anyone person ever....there must be (as I suggested in earlier post) flexibility, awareness, perhaps I should have perhaps added openness to where a person is coming from...I did mention fear as a factor did I not
I'm sure you can understand how fear causes us to make stupid statements and overreact.
I had thought my response to be clear enough.
The only question i do have in all of this is: why Barry have the 'big guns' (you) been brought in as a result of my response to Linda's questions ?
Babaruss
Babaruss et al (https://www.thefreedictionary.com/et+al.),
What Linda is requesting is that you post exactly what you would have posted, fully written out, for handling Shellebelle if you were in my position and her blackmail attempt was directed against you.
Feel free to include some comments before and/or after the full text of your post.
So for instance, your reply my look like:
I look forward to seeing your versions! I hope to learn a trick or two! I'd love to find some assistant moderators for help in reviewing the discussions here.
Juggledude
06-01-2009, 09:12 AM
I had thought my response to be clear enough.
The only question i do have in all of this is: why Barry have the 'big guns' (you) been brought in as a result of my response to Linda's questions ?
Babaruss
Probably in an attempt at clarification. I hear your own opinion of your clarity, however, from this point of view (my own) it's pretty much theoretical mumbling.
I too would be interested in transitioning the gap between your concepts of inclusion and the specifics of addressing MsTerry or ShelleBelle's verbal violence. To use your swimming pool analogy, no, kicking them out of the pool won't help them learn to swim, but at some point, the lifeguard must pull the drowning person from the pool because they are killing innocent swimmers as they use them to keep their own head above water. To speak of "inclusion" and compassion toward the "asleep" members of our community is all well and good, but to what extent do you allow them to harm yourself or others? Where are the boundaries?
Royce
Mrs. Wacco
06-01-2009, 09:31 AM
Yes, Barry was just trying to clarify exactly what I'm talking about with an example. It wasn't that Babaruss' response was reasonable or unreasonable, clear or unclear; it just didn't address the very specific request I made. I realize this is difficult as theorizing is so much easier than actually putting theory into action.
If we don't try it here - a very safe place to practice what we preach, then where? How do we learn a better way? This is a request for active learning.
Linda
Probably in an attempt at clarification. I hear your own opinion of your clarity, however, from this point of view (my own) it's pretty much theoretical mumbling.
NudeTea
06-01-2009, 11:05 AM
If we don't try it here - a very safe place to practice what we preach, then where? How do we learn a better way? This is a request for active learning.
Linda
One problem that comes to mind, Linda, is the 'preach' word. Thank you for the opportunity to segue off of it.
I've witnessed many times that once a person posts something, a preacher mentality comes into play. It's as if people start responding with character assassinations against the preacher; referencing all kinds of previous posts as if we are held liable for things we say not just in this post but in past posts as well. Suddenly, a person's whole past is thrust in their face, overwhelming the one post they stated today.
Is that right, is it wrong? Yadda yadda, not debating that. It's simply an observation on my part which I mention because it disrupts the flow of the 'active learning' that you also clue in on. Sure, I myself have posted things in the past that I will probably forever be held liable for having said, but it's entirely possible that I've learned better things since then. Perhaps if I were to write things today, they would entirely clash with things I've said in the past. Hence, the process of active learning.
It's my every hope that after reading posts from people such as yourself, Barry, and the random other paricipants in the bb here, that I will learn; I will grow, I will evolve into a byproduct composed of good statements from good people.
Thank you for your recent posts, Mrs W, I do read them although I seldom comment.
babaruss
06-01-2009, 01:41 PM
We'll start with your comment: "your own opinion of your clarity".
At which point did I insist my ideas were clarity incarnate..as in my word/opinion being sacrosanct ?
I expressed ideas, and approaches, which have worked for me in the past.
Which seem to me now to be valuable tools for dealing with difficult people.
What seems to me to be truth is just that...it is as you as say..'an opinion', and nothing more.
Taking issue with my 'opinion' makes no sense whatsoever.
However showing me alternate approaches to solving the problem may prove helpful to my own personal growth, and understanding...as well as add a bit more truth/insight to the issue at hand.
How you 'see' me is just that..it is how you see me...what you see alters my perceptions but little. 'Theoretical' means untried/unpracticed does it not ? and mumbling implies incoherency.
I think will wait to hear what other members have to say about what I have shared before considering too greatly your take on my 'incoherency'.
Verbal violence ie; does not include the 'printed word'. This is not violence...violence is what we do when we allow ourselves to buy emotionally into such things as written words. These exchanges of words...however unkind you see them to be..were nothing more than words until we placed a value to them. Couple our emotional reactions to those the potential an there the potential for damage begins.
This may be a bit to 'out there' for you...but boundaries/divisions are what cause wars. The whole idea of community is to 'include' as many people who are 'unlike us' as possible.
Your assumption that someone thrashing about in the pool is drowning may be a leap away from the truth. As far as I can ascertain...no one has been 'killed, or pulled under the water by someone thrashing about' on this forum to date.
There well may have been a few wounded egos brought about in all that thrashing...but a calm, observant, life guard, (open/loving/understanding mind) might have prevented even that.
Babaruss
Probably in an attempt at clarification. I hear your own opinion of your clarity, however, from this point of view (my own) it's pretty much theoretical mumbling.
I too would be interested in transitioning the gap between your concepts of inclusion and the specifics of addressing MsTerry or ShelleBelle's verbal violence. To use your swimming pool analogy, no, kicking them out of the pool won't help them learn to swim, but at some point, the lifeguard must pull the drowning person from the pool because they are killing innocent swimmers as they use them to keep their own head above water. To speak of "inclusion" and compassion toward the "asleep" members of our community is all well and good, but to what extent do you allow them to harm yourself or others? Where are the boundaries?
Royce
Mrs. Wacco
06-01-2009, 07:32 PM
Babaruss - I'm sorry to say this but you are sounding a bit defensive, which is fine. I don't really care; I'm Ok with exchanges such as this. But I'm looking for the words of love and how you are addressing whatever truth is in Royce's note - your advice to me/this board a few posts back. And Royce isn't even being difficult compared to others who will remain nameless.
I only point it out to demonstrate how difficult it can be to exhibit the qualities you profess (which are honorable), particularly via the written word.
Linda
We'll start with your comment: "your own opinion of your clarity".
At which point did I insist my ideas were clarity incarnate..as in my word/opinion being sacrosanct ?
I expressed ideas, and approaches, which have worked for me in the past.
Which seem to me now to be valuable tools for dealing with difficult people.
What seems to me to be truth is just that...it is as you as say..'an opinion', and nothing more.
Taking issue with my 'opinion' makes no sense whatsoever.
However showing me alternate approaches to solving the problem may prove helpful to my own personal growth, and understanding...as well as add a bit more truth/insight to the issue at hand.
How you 'see' me is just that..it is how you see me...what you see alters my perceptions but little. 'Theoretical' means untried/unpracticed does it not ? and mumbling implies incoherency.
I think will wait to hear what other members have to say about what I have shared before considering too greatly your take on my 'incoherency'.
Verbal violence ie; does not include the 'printed word'. This is not violence...violence is what we do when we allow ourselves to buy emotionally into such things as written words. These exchanges of words...however unkind you see them to be..were nothing more than words until we placed a value to them. Couple our emotional reactions to those the potential an there the potential for damage begins.
This may be a bit to 'out there' for you...but boundaries/divisions are what cause wars. The whole idea of community is to 'include' as many people who are 'unlike us' as possible.
Your assumption that someone thrashing about in the pool is drowning may be a leap away from the truth. As far as I can ascertain...no one has been 'killed, or pulled under the water by someone thrashing about' on this forum to date.
There well may have been a few wounded egos brought about in all that thrashing...but a calm, observant, life guard, (open/loving/understanding mind) might have prevented even that.
Babaruss
Braggi
06-01-2009, 09:00 PM
... If I fail to attack a person who I perceive as attacking me, I may be at the beginning stages of "working things out".
...
Or more likely, you won't be. No disrespect baba, but your advice doesn't fit either of the two recent situations where a member was dropped from Waccobb.net.
All these nice things were tried with ThePhiant/MsTerry and no amount of playing along, asking for improvement or warnings got through to him.
Imagine having a party. Someone comes in with a squirt gun when the house is already full of people. Every time someone says something this person squirts them in the face. So people stop saying things. Some people get real mad and scream obscenities running from the room. More people arrive and when any of them say something they get squirted in the face. So they either slink off in corners and don't talk or leave saying what a crappy party this is.
The host, friends and other guests try repeatedly to talk this intruder into putting down the squirt gun and just talking like everyone else wants to but the person just fills the gun with water again and continues shooting everyone who tries to help.
As some point the intruder needs to be asked to leave.
That has happened with ThePhiant/MsTerry and the squirting in the face went on way too long in most people's opinions. There was no other choice because all the other methods had been tried over and over to no effect for months and months. MsTerry didn't want to improve things. He enjoyed the chaos he could stir up. He'll now move on to other places where he'll be a burr under the collective saddle until he's canned from there.
In fact, I'll imagine Waccobb.net holds the record for the longest MsTerry membership to date. He's been given way more than his due.
I won't miss him.
-Jeff
Zeno Swijtink
06-01-2009, 09:43 PM
I am not following this tread closely but the title, "Keeping WaccoBB.net safe," irks me.
Do a google with "internet safety" and you see it has to do with kids. People are concerned about kids getting hurt on the web.
For grown-ups, the problem with trolls is not that they make Wacco.BB less "safe."
The problem with trolls is that they are tedious, boring, move a conversation off topic, are confusing to newcomers.
Indeed, the problem with trolls is that banning them equally leads to conversation that is tedious, boring, moves the conversation off topic, and is confusing to newcomers.
babaruss
06-01-2009, 09:57 PM
I could possibly have been a bit of defensiveness in my response to Royce, but there is nothing in the post which is remotely unkind, threatening, or for that matter 'unloving'.
Perceptions are not facts...they are just perceptions...be they yours, Royce's, or belonging to someone else.
Facts can generally be determined to be truth, or if you wish reality.
My perceptions were not in agreement with Royce's perceptions.
Royce's perceptions were not in agreement with mine.
Is having differing views, or dissagreement, not allowed on a forum of this kind ?
Love does not always come in a manner 'you' understand.
Offering a differing point of view/perception to some can be seen as a loving act. Your perception is that it was not.
While I do not agree with your perception of what I wrote, I am open to you expressing your perceptions.
You see an attack coming from me upon the person of Royce where there was none.
How is it that you are interpreting the words appearing on your screen to be unkind or unloving ?
Babaruss
Babaruss - I'm sorry to say this but you are sounding a bit defensive, which is fine. I don't really care; I'm Ok with exchanges such as this. But I'm looking for the words of love and how you are addressing whatever truth is in Royce's note - your advice to me/this board a few posts back. And Royce isn't even being difficult compared to others who will remain nameless.
I only point it out to demonstrate how difficult it can be to exhibit the qualities you profess (which are honorable), particularly via the written word.
Linda
Mrs. Wacco
06-01-2009, 10:30 PM
Barbaruss - I didn't say anything in your post was unkind, unloving, threatening or anything of the sort. Nor did I say you cannot have differing views- read my words again. If I thought any of that I would have said so directly. I am not someone who infers - I say what I mean and mean what I say.
To review - this started with a request for a real example of a response to Shelle or Ms Terry that was undeniably compassionate, respectful, non-violent, that was different than what was posted and that achieved what I outlined. If it those posts had been directed to "you", what would you have written?
While I appreciate the discourse, I will be taking a break from this conversation.....
Linda
I could possibly have been a bit of defensiveness in my response to Royce, but there is nothing in the post which is remotely unkind, threatening, or for that matter 'unloving'.
Perceptions are not facts...they are just perceptions...be they yours, Royce's, or belonging to someone else.
Facts can generally be determined to be truth, or if you wish reality.
My perceptions were not in agreement with Royce's perceptions.
Royce's perceptions were not in agreement with mine.
Is having differing views, or dissagreement, not allowed on a forum of this kind ?
Love does not always come in a manner 'you' understand.
Offering a differing point of view/perception to some can be seen as a loving act. Your perception is that it was not.
While I do not agree with your perception of what I wrote, I am open to you expressing your perceptions.
You see an attack coming from me upon the person of Royce where there was none.
How is it that you are interpreting the words appearing on your screen to be unkind or unloving ?
Babaruss
Vet-To-Pet
06-01-2009, 10:39 PM
:banghead: One definition of insanity is: Doing the same thing over & over and expecting different results. Perhaps this could be applied to the Wacco community's reactions to certain toxic people who have worked their way into "the gang", but who start "stirring the pot" almost immediately with outrageous postings/replies, as well as diverting topics to ones that are more volatile...whatever they do to sabotage our goodwill towards each other. Once these people are 'discovered', I think the best thing to do is for each person who find that person offensive or disrespectful should add him/her to their "ignore" list. Eventually, there will be no one left to read their rantings & MAYbe they'll get the hint...?
Smiles,
Vet-To-Pet/Paula
I am not following this tread closely but the title, "Keeping WaccoBB.net safe," irks me.
Do a google with "internet safety" and you see it has to do with kids. People are concerned about kids getting hurt on the web.
For grown-ups, the problem with trolls is not that they make Wacco.BB less "safe."
The problem with trolls is that they are tedious, boring, move a conversation off topic, are confusing to newcomers.
Indeed, the problem with trolls is that banning them equally leads to conversation that is tedious, boring, moves the conversation off topic, and is confusing to newcomers.
Vet-To-Pet
06-01-2009, 10:42 PM
I agree & think the squirt gun analogy is a good one. Eventually, there'll be no one left to squirt if no one stays to be squirted, and the person with the squirt gun will have to try elsewhere or change their ways. :thumbsup:
Smiles,
Paula/Vet-To-Pet
Or more likely, you won't be. No disrespect baba, but your advice doesn't fit either of the two recent situations where a member was dropped from Waccobb.net.
All these nice things were tried with ThePhiant/MsTerry and no amount of playing along, asking for improvement or warnings got through to him.
Imagine having a party. Someone comes in with a squirt gun when the house is already full of people. Every time someone says something this person squirts them in the face. So people stop saying things. Some people get real mad and scream obscenities running from the room. More people arrive and when any of them say something they get squirted in the face. So they either slink off in corners and don't talk or leave saying what a crappy party this is.
The host, friends and other guests try repeatedly to talk this intruder into putting down the squirt gun and just talking like everyone else wants to but the person just fills the gun with water again and continues shooting everyone who tries to help.
As some point the intruder needs to be asked to leave.
That has happened with ThePhiant/MsTerry and the squirting in the face went on way too long in most people's opinions. There was no other choice because all the other methods had been tried over and over to no effect for months and months. MsTerry didn't want to improve things. He enjoyed the chaos he could stir up. He'll now move on to other places where he'll be a burr under the collective saddle until he's canned from there.
In fact, I'll imagine Waccobb.net holds the record for the longest MsTerry membership to date. He's been given way more than his due.
I won't miss him.
-Jeff
Sara S
06-02-2009, 08:05 AM
from Michael Gerson in The Washington Post:
"The rhetoric of the rant is the dominant form of public comment on the Internet, where the pithy, personal, scatological attack has become a minor art form, rather like sculpting in excrement. The practitioners of the rant have their own television shows, radio programs, and websites. The advocates of this approach often describe it (and themselves) as courageous. But it is a strange moral inversion to talk of the 'courage' of the raised middle finger. Rudeness sets out to dominate and humiliate. Every excess provides the excuse for greater and opposite excess- a search for more vicious put-downs and more startling obscenities."
Or more likely, you won't be. No disrespect baba, but your advice doesn't fit either of the two recent situations where a member was dropped from Waccobb.net.
All these nice things were tried with ThePhiant/MsTerry and no amount of playing along, asking for improvement or warnings got through to him.
Imagine having a party. Someone comes in with a squirt gun when the house is already full of people. Every time someone says something this person squirts them in the face. So people stop saying things. Some people get real mad and scream obscenities running from the room. More people arrive and when any of them say something they get squirted in the face. So they either slink off in corners and don't talk or leave saying what a crappy party this is.
The host, friends and other guests try repeatedly to talk this intruder into putting down the squirt gun and just talking like everyone else wants to but the person just fills the gun with water again and continues shooting everyone who tries to help.
As some point the intruder needs to be asked to leave.
That has happened with ThePhiant/MsTerry and the squirting in the face went on way too long in most people's opinions. There was no other choice because all the other methods had been tried over and over to no effect for months and months. MsTerry didn't want to improve things. He enjoyed the chaos he could stir up. He'll now move on to other places where he'll be a burr under the collective saddle until he's canned from there.
In fact, I'll imagine Waccobb.net holds the record for the longest MsTerry membership to date. He's been given way more than his due.
I won't miss him.
-Jeff
podfish
06-02-2009, 08:19 AM
whether the post was "reasonable" doesn't sound at issue.
I think the request was for "exactly" (Barry's words) what response - meaning specific word choices. Barry gave a sample. Another might start: "ShelleBelle, you...." and go on in your own words to make whatever point you want.
I don't quite understand the 'no concrete way..' quote below - it sounds like a comment on the need to deal flexibly with people. That's certainly true, but eventually you do have to choose words, string them together into some attempt at a sentence, and say/write them.
This post is kind of pedantic, but sometimes I think it's worth looking at the mechanics of the conversation so its meanings come through. It's not communication if it's not understood...
I was fairly certain I gave a reasonable response to Linda's questions.
I was speaking in a general way about what I thought might be a conscious response to the difficult people who post on this forum.
There is no concrete way to deal with anyone person ever...
decterlove
06-02-2009, 08:48 AM
Indeed, the problem with trolls is that banning them equally leads to conversation that is tedious, boring, moves the conversation off topic, and is confusing to newcomers.
Gadz....this so much ado about NOTHING! Can't we use our collective brain power for something a little less trivial than one silly little semi-troll on a forum.
BTW, has MsT actually been banned at this point?
If she has I suggest we get back to exploring more pertinent matters....like the tiny circular piles of black bean dip that are now frequently cropping up in the Irish countryside. British tabloids are called them "Crap Circles".
Barry
06-02-2009, 09:18 AM
... Now’s the time. Take your best shot. ...
All that unpleasantness went down last Friday at 6pm. It's now Tuesday morning. I'll keep my offer open for another 24 hours. If you do not respond by then you will no longer be able to post, and I will call the matter closed.
A personal note to Shellebelle: Shelley, as one human to another: I truly believe you will be doing more damage to yourself rather than to me if you choose to continue, not to mention the rest of the readers.
On that point, I request (but don't insist) that if you do choose to post, please post in the Censored and Uncensored category so that readers will not be exposed to any more of our private drama unwittingly. You are welcome to post a link here.
Braggi
06-02-2009, 09:58 AM
... The problem with trolls is that they are tedious, boring, move a conversation off topic, are confusing to newcomers.
Indeed, the problem with trolls is that banning them equally leads to conversation that is tedious, boring, moves the conversation off topic, and is confusing to newcomers.
The big difference is that this conversation, about banning trolls, will wind down and end, but a troll, left as a member, will continue their disrespectful, distracting banter on into the future. Every post would run the risk of an insulting reply. Banning the pest reduces that risk. That's one definition of safety, so I'm both for banning the troll and then talking it out in community as we're doing here.
This kind of conversation is especially important for newcomers so they'll see that if they're unreasonably responded to in a post or in an offline private email that their interests will be protected. That's good for something.
-Jeff
babaruss
06-02-2009, 11:25 AM
"Every post could run the risk of' inciting intelligent,, loving non-threatened responses too could it not ?
Practicing loving kindness (to so called annoying people) is a conscious, inclusive, act is this not true ?
I went back and read all of the 'offending' posts, and saw that the words expressed by Shellebelle could be offensive only to someone with an attachment to how they personally are being perceived.
If her words were not responded to at all, there would have need no need for this discussion, let alone barring her.
Non action is considered a loving response in some spiritual belief systems.
Do I need to surrender my peace and serenity over opinions/perceptionsand ideas of me offered by another ?
These are my opinions only, and their value may be zip to everyone else on this forum.
I am only offering alternative routes away from what seems to be a needless conflict.
I was asked earlier what I would have said to Shellebelle..and the answer is this: 'absolutely nothing'. She apparently gossiped... offered her views, and perceptions about someone...opinions which have value only if you invest your feelings/ego/self image into them.
Please keep in mind that I don't know any of the parties involved in this unhappiness.
I am taking no sides.
I am expressing what I think to be aspects of responding to others in community in a conscious way.
Babaruss
............ Every post would run the risk of an insulting reply. Banning the pest reduces that risk. That's one definition of safety, so I'm both for banning the troll and then talking it out in community as we're doing here.............-Jeff
Braggi
06-02-2009, 11:42 AM
... I went back and read all of the 'offending' posts, and saw that the words expressed by Shellebelle could be offensive only to someone with an attachment to how they personally are being perceived. ...
But babaruss, the banning wasn't about what she posted on Waccobb.net, but about a private email the rest of us didn't see. Threatening private emails do violate the Wacco terms of service and are cause for losing membership.
I have not seen that email nor do I really want to. Threatening the owner of the site you're a member of isn't really a good idea in my way of thinking.
-Jeff
PS. FWIW, "attachment" is what life is about, in my opinion. There wouldn't be much point without it. We could start a new thread on the topic if you wish.
babaruss
06-02-2009, 12:07 PM
O.K. Jeff, thanks for that info.
I was however responding to Linda's request: 'how would you lovingly respond to Shellebelles post ?' ...or something close to that.
This was what I was responding to.
Since I saw no threatening email, I can't have an opinion one way, or the other.... and since none of us on the forum have seen that email perhaps we should have no opinion on the matter either.
Maybe later we can stumble around discussing 'attachment' (for fun and profit ?) as you suggested. Good idea.
Thanks
Babaruss
But babaruss, the banning wasn't about what she posted on Waccobb.net, but about a private email the rest of us didn't see. Threatening private emails do violate the Wacco terms of service and are cause for losing membership.
I have not seen that email nor do I really want to. Threatening the owner of the site you're a member of isn't really a good idea in my way of thinking.
-Jeff
PS. FWIW, "attachment" is what life is about, in my opinion. There wouldn't be much point without it. We could start a new thread on the topic if you wish.
nurturetruth
06-02-2009, 04:47 PM
Since this forum is about "keeping waccobb.net Safe"
I feel the desire to say more here and it has nothing to do with the subject matter of msterry or the unfortunate exchange between members. It does however have to do with receiving unpleasant messages.
My concern has more to do with the notion that it seems over the course of the past 2 years and most recently, that I have somehow unconsciously/ consciously allowed myself to be a sounding board for people (offline /online) who are NOT regular posters b/c they don't feel 'safe' in posting their viewpoints and or opinions.
I express this with a sad and heavy heart as the theme is the same with many different people.
I have continued to hear from people both online and offline that they wish to no longer participate on wacco b/c they have not felt "safe" or had that need met. I often hear from others that when they have tried to voice their opinion,perspective ,perhaps a review of a restaurant or tried to introduce a new product , that "they feel hounded/attacked or experience feeling judged for their offerings."
This is a concern for me b/c I wish more members would feel comfortable being active with posting posts on wacco.
It is in my opinion, the issue of keeping wacco safe and cozy for all members and newcomers is a much bigger picture than just dealing w/ msterry. ( i am using msterry's name since this thread started off being about Barry's decision concerning him/her)
Seemingly, and in my perspective (my own), it appears (NOT FACT!) that many "regulars" enjoy conversing on an intellectual level (perhaps w/healthy or unhealthy ego included?)
Perhaps a new category could be considered for "the intellects".....
giggling here!!!! JUST KIDDING!
In truth:
Many times I have shared my offerings to this community in what I perceived to be a heartfelt manner only to read that what i have to offer is not intellectual b/c I do not use the same language or meaning of words as others .
I will admit , the language I opt to use IS very different than the vast majority and very different from how I once expressed myself which I only used to do by way of intellect.
Though I can clearly understand how my language/words can lead to confusion for some, I most always appreciate and enjoy being asked for clarity versus reading how I make it difficult to have an intellectual conversation with.
I have also had the experience of it being implied/suggested that I need to somehow change the way I dialog or altar my words (or meaning behind them) if i want to participate in a good intellectual conversation and be well received. While this theoretically could be true, I use my intellect,heart and spirit to ponder some reflective questions:
1) Why does anyone need to change for anyone in order to have a productive conversation?
2) Do we (as humans) feel that others have to be other than as they are in order to do a fun stimulating dance ?
3) How can wacco as a community for the "progessive" with a quoted 9,417 member status, enable other members (not just regular posters) and newcomers to feel safe and comfortable in including themselves to post more on wacco?
With all respect, I would like to share that
a #1 rule I have with myself and with those i respect and value is:
"to be true to self and accepting myself and others for who they are and where they are at on their journey"
I personally have experienced 'waves' of feeling both safe and unsafe during my time on wacco when it comes to sharing or expressing my truth or perspective.
At times I have found myself wanting to withdraw from this community and even withdraw from offline personal relations when I start imagining or feeling that it is not possible to share my perspective/truth without reading and or hearing judgments or projections in return.
It becomes NOT FUN and it doesn't feel good!
So I have been busy reflecting on this notion of what do I need to feel 'safe' when it comes to expressing my truth?
this is what i wrote in my journal and wish to share with community at this time:
Is it safe?
"I do not need others to be anything other than as they are for my need of safety to be met. I do not need others to change. I accept myself and others for where we are at.
I do not hold others responsible to meet my need for safety.
I cannot rely on or count on others to provide a safe environment for which i can feel free to be me.
rather, it is up to me
to be
It is up to me to find ways to feel comfortable with who I am and what I have to offer. This means knowing I value myself and that I am valued by those who love me and who are in my intimate circle of friends/lovers.
Am I willing to continue contributing to this community and release the hope I will be well received without being judged or projected upon?
yes. to a point.
Do others experience either feeling un-attracted or attracted to me b/c I use such a different language to express myself? yes. (very much so!)
Do those who mind matter? NO !
Is it possible that those who don't mind are the ones who matter? YES! "
lovingly, respectfully and in truth
Kali
NudeTea
06-02-2009, 05:57 PM
A nod of appreciation for your energetic edits and vibes. I'm going to keep my comments short since everything I say can and might be held against me in a court of law... lol just kidding.
"Don't run with scissors." A credo we teach to our kids. Scissors serve a particular service in life and I can back that up with a quote from Wikipedia if need be. But we should keep scissors to that purpose. Keep the scissors, keep the purpose.
Similarly lots of people participate in this forum and each person sees themselves as having a valuable purpose for their participation (I suppose each person does anyway ~ I haven't any polls or statistics to back me up though).
I don't respond to every post or every thread. I only participate when I feel I can serve my own purpose for doing so. Other people do reply to almost every comment, every thread, or degrees inbetween. They sometimes have very insightful remarks, sometimes very cutting.
It seems to me that people feel safe with you Nuturetruth. However that might have worked out to be that way is an evolution you could probably attest to without my assumptions. If I had a following as you have, I admit I'd be tempted to put a donation box on my doorway.
Yup. I'm good. Done. Said my say. See ya.
lifequest
06-02-2009, 06:28 PM
Nuturetruth's posts are always very intiutive and compassionate. She always tries to include all and foster a sense of community. Appreciation is due her and as my offering I wanted to put forward an idea for a new bulletin board category that all members can contribute suggestions to.
Those who are following the State's situation understand that life as we know it will be changing drastically in the very near future - support nets and services will totally disappear. If individuals know of support services or other forms of community support available they could post in that category. We may all become more dependant on community instead of government so this could be a way of addressing needs.
I've always limited my posts to offering suggestions on services or help available or commented on the economic outrage of the moment that I have direct knowledge of. Philosophical musings are not my interest and seem to occupy a lot of time and space on WACCO. I merely suggest that a bit more energy be devoted to practical matters while not changing anything else.
babaruss
06-03-2009, 12:33 PM
Perhaps lifequest would care to start the desired thread, so that we can begin dealing with the practical matter of dealing with support/survival
and independence from government.
Babaruss
Nuturetruth's posts are always very intiutive and compassionate. She always tries to include all and foster a sense of community. Appreciation is due her and as my offering I wanted to put forward an idea for a new bulletin board category that all members can contribute suggestions to.
Those who are following the State's situation understand that life as we know it will be changing drastically in the very near future - support nets and services will totally disappear. If individuals know of support services or other forms of community support available they could post in that category. We may all become more dependant on community instead of government so this could be a way of addressing needs.
I've always limited my posts to offering suggestions on services or help available or commented on the economic outrage of the moment that I have direct knowledge of. Philosophical musings are not my interest and seem to occupy a lot of time and space on WACCO. I merely suggest that a bit more energy be devoted to practical matters while not changing anything else.