Sex and Christians

[dw41552]

[This thread was split off from https://www.waccobb.net/forums/conscious-relationship/51171-sex-sake-sex.html#post86482 (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/conscious-relationship/51171-sex-sake-sex.html#post86482%5D) ]

I'd love to give a response from a Christian view point. But first I must say, these are my beliefs like them or not. You have the choice to except or reject them that's up to each individual. Either way I just want everyone to know I do not feel superior to anyone. We are all equals. I'm just sharing what I believe with all my heart God has taught me.

I do not believe in fornication. In my opinion sleeping together just for the sake of sex, is just sex. I also believe God intended sex for two purposes, procreation and a reward for two people, a man and a woman who take the time to really get to know each other and fall truely in love without the distraction of sex, and then marry making a life time commitment to each other.

Oh, I can just hear it now. How ya gonna know if it's any good unless you take it for a test drive. I get this one all the time. We're not talking about a car here for crying out loud.

Let me explain it this way. I'm sure most all of you like cake right? My favorite is orange cake with orange icing. A man and a woman meet. They make a good first impression so they start dating. They've decided to refrain from sex as they are both Christians. In 18 months they have gotten to know each other inside and out and enjoy each other to the point of truely falling in love. They have baked the cake. The cake being the foundation for the next step, marriage. Now that they are married it's time to ice the cake. I don't like the word sex at this point, I like to think of it as, "making love" the icing on the cake. Now you can have the icing without the cake and it tastes pretty good, but it's just not the same as having a moist warm orange cake smothered with orange icing.

I truely believe if couples would instead of connecting at the hips first, connect first with their hearts and minds, the divorce rate wouldn't be near as high as it is. And don't forget, look what happens when people use sex for other than what God intended it for. Abortions, STDs, babies having babies, single moms, children being born to extreme poverty and dying from starvation, and the list goes on, none of which would happen if used God's way.

I have a question for every one. What percentage of marriages where sex was no longer a possibility would survive?

God bless

[MsTerry]

Abortions, STDs, babies having babies, single moms, children being born to extreme poverty and dying from starvation, and the list goes on, none of which would happen if used God's way.
Butch, Butch, Butch.
Are you saying that no Christians are poor, born to extreme poverty, are single parent or even have STD's???

[MsTerry]

There would be no shortage of fuel, no shorting of fresh water, virtually no pollution!!!
Only a shortage of food???


No factories to make all the stupid stuff we have in our homes.
Uhmmmmmmmmmm, aren't you the one supplying all that stuff to make a living?

[mykil]

I am not sure how to say this without hurting your feeling Jason so I am just going to say it! You truly DO NOT know what love is!
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Mzt as usual you missed the point completely! I would love nothing more than to be living of a commute growing our own vegetables, only cutting enough wood to house everyone close together, as in living in one or two dwelling as in just being and receiving love from one another Too much love to eat or even grown an artificial creature as food. There for we would never run out of nutrients as we are on the verge of doing now, our oceans would be for pleasure and magnificent adventures instead of filling them full of plastic and ever even throwing a net across the water to catch the little creatures and munching them down. We are cannibals stuck in a hell we have designed for ourselves and no one seems to get this. Love is all around us, WE are love, yet we have boundaries we adhere to and make our own living hell. Sp for all your religious fanatics once again, WE are LOVE, LOVE is GOD, and GOD is WE!
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[dw41552]

Butch, Butch, Butch.
Are you saying that no Christians are poor, born to extreme poverty, are single parent or even have STD's???

Not at all MsTerry. My message is for all believers and non believers alike. I will be the first to say that these things are almost as prevalent in the church as outside the church. When I bacame a Christian, I did not all of a sudden become perfect. I'm not capable of such righteousness. I really wish I was!! Not every choice I make is within the will of God, and I pay the conseqences just like every one else. However because of my faith, the more I rely on Jesus, the less I live outside the will of God, and the less likely one of these things will happen to me. The more we do our own thing living outside His will, the more we put ourselves as well as those we claim to love at risk.

God bless

[dw41552]

I love this. It's amazing how the mention of God can whip up such a frenzy. This two week old thread more than doubled in posts in less than 12 hours. because of the mention of God and His way.

looks like I woke this thread up and got your attention.Big Smile

All I'm doing is trying to share what I know to be a better way though personal experience and what The Good Lord is teaching me.

Jesus who is God in human form loves us. He loves us in word and action. He always put our needs before his own. He came and lowered Himself below us and to serve us, to die a brutal horrible death so that we may live. That's love. It's putting the needs of others before self. You know, "what can I do for you?" instead of, "what can you do for me." Love is a balance of power, not having power over another. Love is dreaming together and helping each other to realize those dreams. Some powerful words passed on by my good friend Pastor Kevin at church today. Our church name was recently canged to City Church, (Non denominational) because it is our mission to love and serve our community. We have no church building of our own nor desire one. Our service is held in a building loaned to us so that the money we save can be better used to help those in need. That's love! We are not a perfect church and we are full of flawed people but we certainly try our best to be a loving giving church.

The problem with the world is we've become more narcissistic than at any other time in history. We think of self before others. I assure you it is impossible to find love through sex. Having sex with someone you're not married to is to fulfill a selfish desire. You put that person at risk. I can hear it now, "what risk?" How about pregnancy for one. There's this worldly concept called, "safe sex." Well guess what? There is no such thing. There have been over 48 million abortions since 1973 that we know of, just in the US alone. Out of the 48 million 42% were using some form of contreceptive at the time they got pregnant. Then there's the most easily spread STD herpes which only requires skin contact down below to become infected, and there is no cure. So much for safe sex. Putting another at risk even if the risk is low is not love. It is selfishness. The safest sex of all is between a man and a woman who are truely in love, married, and try their best to live according to God's will.

Sex is not an expression of love except in marriage, and even then it plays a small part in the overall picture. Baking the cake is building a strong fountation made out of selfless love, which leads to a lifetime comittment. Marriage is an outward showing of the love between a man and a woman, an example of Gods way. The sex is just the icing on the cake. It alone could never ever sustain love or any relationship.

God bless

[pjpete]

The Way Home

Here are the key elements by which we become reconciled to the Father. Each is vitally important. Any, if absent, could keep our new relationship from being complete.

Our condition: First, we must understand that we are separated from God. The chasm dividing us is both wide and deep. We inherited a fatal defect at birth. As a result, we have lived our lives independently from him. The Bible emphasizes this stark reality: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). If we can’t come to grips with the fact that sin separates us from God, we’ll never come home spiritually, for there is no need for a savior.

God’s remedy: Second, we need to be very clear in understanding who Jesus is and what he has done for us, in order that we might confidently place our faith in him. He bridged the chasm separating us from God. In the apostle John’s words: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16).

Jesus was not just a good man, a great teacher, an inspired prophet. He came to earth as the Son of God. He was born to a virgin. He led a sinless life. He died. He was buried. He rose again on the third day. He ascended into heaven where he became both Lord and Christ.

Jesus’ death and resurrection on our behalf satisfied God’s requirement – complete provision for our sin. This Jesus, and he alone, is qualified to be the remedy for my sin and yours.

Our response – to repent and believe.

Personal repentance is vital in the transformation process. Repentance literally means “a change of mind.” It is to say to the Father, “I want to turn toward you and away from the life I’ve lived independently from you. I am sorry for who I’ve been and what I have done and I want to permanently change. I receive your forgiveness for my sins.”

Many at this point experience a remarkable “washing” from a lifetime’s accumulation of all that can degrade a person’s soul and spirit. Whether or not we sense God’s forgiveness, if we repent, we can be very certain that we’re forgiven. Our confidence is based on God’s promise to us, not how we feel.

We come into a personal relationship with the Lord when we make life’s greatest decision – the turning point referred to earlier. It is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the One who died for our sins, who was buried and was raised from the dead – and to receive him as our Savior and Lord. When we believe in this way, we become God’s children. This is emphatically promised in John’s gospel: “To all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God” (John 1:12).

Would you like to receive Jesus Christ as your savior? If you would, you can pray a prayer like this:

“Jesus, I need you. I repent for the life I’ve lived apart from you. Thank you for dying on the cross to take the penalty for my sins. I believe you are God’s Son and I now receive you as my Savior and Lord. I commit my life to follow you.”

Pray this prayer....


Oh and Jason the swallowing part was a joke oh contraceptives via butchs post, do try and keep up eh! HA! Another joke DUDE!

[MsTerry]

Thank you for dying on the cross to take the penalty for my sins


:hmmm:
Jesus already knew 2000 years ago what kind of sins everybody was going to commit?
He sounds irresponsible, taking the easy way out by basically committing suicide and then slipping away to heaven.
If he knew what was coming, he should've prevented all this suffering!

[pjpete]

Mystery, please dont distort what I posted, what I posted is the following:


The Way Home

Here are the key elements by which we become reconciled to the Father. Each is vitally important. Any, if absent, could keep our new relationship from being complete.

Our condition: First, we must understand that we are separated from God. The chasm dividing us is both wide and deep. We inherited a fatal defect at birth. As a result, we have lived our lives independently from him. The Bible emphasizes this stark reality: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). If we can’t come to grips with the fact that sin separates us from God, we’ll never come home spiritually, for there is no need for a savior.

God’s remedy: Second, we need to be very clear in understanding who Jesus is and what he has done for us, in order that we might confidently place our faith in him. He bridged the chasm separating us from God. In the apostle John’s words: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16).

Jesus was not just a good man, a great teacher, an inspired prophet. He came to earth as the Son of God. He was born to a virgin. He led a sinless life. He died. He was buried. He rose again on the third day. He ascended into heaven where he became both Lord and Christ.

Jesus’ death and resurrection on our behalf satisfied God’s requirement – complete provision for our sin. This Jesus, and he alone, is qualified to be the remedy for my sin and yours.

Our response – to repent and believe.

Personal repentance is vital in the transformation process. Repentance literally means “a change of mind.” It is to say to the Father, “I want to turn toward you and away from the life I’ve lived independently from you. I am sorry for who I’ve been and what I have done and I want to permanently change. I receive your forgiveness for my sins.”

Many at this point experience a remarkable “washing” from a lifetime’s accumulation of all that can degrade a person’s soul and spirit. Whether or not we sense God’s forgiveness, if we repent, we can be very certain that we’re forgiven. Our confidence is based on God’s promise to us, not how we feel.

We come into a personal relationship with the Lord when we make life’s greatest decision – the turning point referred to earlier. It is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the One who died for our sins, who was buried and was raised from the dead – and to receive him as our Savior and Lord. When we believe in this way, we become God’s children. This is emphatically promised in John’s gospel: “To all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God” (John 1:12).

Would you like to receive Jesus Christ as your savior? If you would, you can pray a prayer like this:

“Jesus, I need you. I repent for the life I’ve lived apart from you. Thank you for dying on the cross to take the penalty for my sins. I believe you are God’s Son and I now receive you as my Savior and Lord. I commit my life to follow you.”

Pray this prayer....

[MsTerry]

Pete, are you so busy praying for your sins that you can't answer an honest question ?
My quote was directly from your prayer.


Mystery, please dont distort what I posted,

[nurturetruth]

With all due respect for the beautiful diversity of Wacco community, I wish to state that I mean this only in the most light hearted way and to try to redirect the topic back to the original purpose of the thread. Forgive me ahead of time here, I cannot resist ....

Would u like to receive sex just for the sake of sex? If you would, u can pray a prayer like this:

"Jesus, I need you. I also need sex for the sake of sex.
I know u to be a loving, compassionate savior and guide. I know u to be God's son and I now receive you as my Savior and Lord. I know u will not judge me .
I am confiding in u my troubles. I have never had the experience of having sex just for the sake of sex and would really like to know what it feels like ...both to have you cume into my heart/soul and to be able to receive a valuable learning experience of having sex for the sake of sex. "
--------------------

"I like your Christ, I don't like ur Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." ~ Gandhi

Very rare is it that I encounter a Christian that exhibits Christ like behavior ...

However, I have often observed Christians who get caught up acting as if they are the Judge and pass judgments on others for "where they are at" on the path.

I once encountered a Christian woman who told me I had sinned and needed to repent for my sins b/c I chose to have sex before marriage.
The only person I felt judging me was her. She was using her beliefs and what worked for "her" and projecting it onto me. What works for one, might not work for another.

"Beyond right and wrong, there is a field. I will meet you there" ~ Rumi


To: dw41552

I personally love getting into and eating the icing/frosting on the cake .
I fondly recall even licking the bowl and the spoon before I ever ate the cake.

By the way... what constitutes as actual sex or making love? There is alot of 'licking' the bowl that can occur without necessarily having the cake!!!!

in my experience/perspective, love is just too big of a concept to only make love to just one person. There are also many ways one could make love to another .......
:wink:

[dw41552]

With all due respect for the beautiful diversity of Wacco community, I wish to state that I mean this only in the most light hearted way and to try to redirect the topic back to the original purpose of the thread. Forgive me ahead of time here, I cannot resist ....

Would u like to receive sex just for the sake of sex? If you would, u can pray a prayer like this:

"Jesus, I need you. I also need sex for the sake of sex.
I know u to be a loving, compassionate savior and guide. I know u to be God's son and I now receive you as my Savior and Lord. I know u will not judge me .

No mam! That is not true. Everyone will have to stand before Jesus and be judged someday.

Romans 14:10 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=14&verse=10&version=50&context=verse)
But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

1 John 2:16 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=2&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

Galatians 5:16 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=5&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
[ Walking in the Spirit ] I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

2 Corinthians 12:21 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=12&verse=21&version=50&context=verse)
lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced.

Galatians 5:19 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=5&verse=19&version=50&context=verse)
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,

Ephesians 5:3 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=5&verse=3&version=50&context=verse)
But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;

Colossians 3:5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=3&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. idolatry.

I think it's very clear by His Word He does not approve of sex outside of marriage. And no the Words of the bible are not the Words of men, they are the Word of God put on paper using man's hand.


I am confiding in u my troubles. I have never had the experience of having sex just for the sake of sex and would really like to know what it feels like ...both to have you cume into my heart/soul and to be able to receive a valuable learning experience of having sex for the sake of sex. "
--------------------

"I like your Christ, I don't like ur Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." ~ Gandhi

Very rare is it that I encounter a Christian that exhibits Christ like behavior ...

Which is exactly why we need Jesus. The more we open our hearts to Him, the more like Him we will become. He is the brass ring we should all be reaching for.

However, I have often observed Christians who get caught up acting as if they are the Judge and pass judgments on others for "where they are at" on the path.

I once encountered a Christian woman who told me I had sinned and needed to repent for my sins b/c I chose to have sex before marriage.
The only person I felt judging me was her. She was using her beliefs and what worked for "her" and projecting it onto me. What works for one, might not work for another.

"Beyond right and wrong, there is a field. I will meet you there" ~ Rumi


To: dw41552

I personally love getting into and eating the icing/frosting on the cake .
I fondly recall even licking the bowl and the spoon before I ever ate the cake.

By the way... what constitutes as actual sex? There is alot of 'licking' the bowl that can occur without necessarily having the cake!!!!



:wink:

God Bless

[MsTerry]

And no the Words of the bible are not the Words of men, they are the Word of God put on paper using man's hand.
Now, I've heard that your good God was able to set some things in stone. Why would he use man's hand to write down the details?

[mykil]

If Jesus wants to come down here and judge me he had better know I am going to judge him right back!!!
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[NudeTea]

Galatians, Ephesians, Romans .... Lord I am glad I don't live in those countries.
Let me know when Paul writes a letter to the Californians, or even the Irish.

Religion. Marriage. "The cake." We live in a state where it's contested if gays can marry in church. When I was a kid, gays weren't even LET into church till they'd repented. So what sense does it make allow the State of California to issue marriage licenses when "the separation between Church and State" should keep the State out of church as much as the church keeps out gays?

I don't presume to know a lot about sex. Sex for sex sake sounds great for anyone interested. As for me and sex for sex sake, I come in handy.

I don't presume to know a lot about religion, especially when each church establishes its own set of absolutes. BUT I know that if it's true that Christ died to forgive my sins so I don't have to go to hell, and that if I pray the sinners prayer Christ forgives me, and that if upon dieing I was suddenly at the judgment seat of Christ, and upon being discovered to have eaten the cake for the sake of eating the cake that I went to hell anyway, that Christ and the Bible would have been a big lie, and there would be no hell to have gone to because their is no such thing as forgiveness, at which point Christ would not be the forgiving person he is, and therefore probably would not actually exist, and therefore that's why I don't study religion anymore.

If the Bible is real, then Christ is real, my sin is real, and his forgiveness of me is real, at which point I am no more or less a sinner than the preacher man.

At which point I salute Nurture Truth and her statement of admission to Christ that I need sex for sex sake.

[dw41552]

Now, I've heard that your good God was able to set some things in stone. Why would he use man's hand to write down the details?

That would be one heavy bible if He used stone. Why did he come to earth as a man to show us a better way? Why does he use man to spread His message? He could certainly appear to every one of us and say believe in me and my son or else! But then our choice would not be as meaningful as choosing by faith. He will never force Himself on you, which He could easily do. He wants the choice to be all yours.

God bless

[dw41552]

Galatians, Ephesians, Romans .... Lord I am glad I don't live in those countries.
Let me know when Paul writes a letter to the Californians, or even the Irish.

It doesn't matter who Paul is writing to. All of what the bible says is meant for all of us.

Religion. Marriage. "The cake." We live in a state where it's contested if gays can marry in church. When I was a kid, gays weren't even LET into church till they'd repented. So what sense does it make allow the State of California to issue marriage licenses when "the separation between Church and State" should keep the State out of church as much as the church keeps out gays?

I don't presume to know a lot about sex. Sex for sex sake sounds great for anyone interested. As for me and sex for sex sake, I come in handy.

I don't presume to know a lot about religion, especially when each church establishes its own set of absolutes. BUT I know that if it's true that Christ died to forgive my sins so I don't have to go to hell, and that if I pray the sinners prayer Christ forgives me, and that if upon dieing I was suddenly at the judgment seat of Christ, and upon being discovered to have eaten the cake for the sake of eating the cake that I went to hell anyway, that Christ and the Bible would have been a big lie, and there would be no hell to have gone to because their is no such thing as forgiveness, at which point Christ would not be the forgiving person he is, and therefore probably would not actually exist, and therefore that's why I don't study religion anymore.

If the Bible is real, then Christ is real, my sin is real, and his forgiveness of me is real, at which point I am no more or less a sinner than the preacher man.

At which point I salute Nurture Truth and her statement of admission to Christ that I need sex for sex sake.

I prayed the sinners prayer back in 1984. Six months later I'm leaving my wife and three kids for another woman. Why would I do that? Because I was a jack ass!!! Sorry Lord! I lived so far outside of God's will I had a hard heart. And even though I prayed the sinners prayer I was not willing to submit to Jesus 100%. I wasn't willing give up a lot of the things I was doing outside Of His will. And that's just the tip of the iceberg of the things I did and went through before I was finally willing to humble myself and surrender to His will 100% so He could use me any way He wishes. That was the greatest day of my life. It's a great feeling knowing why I'm here, what my purpose is, and where I'm going.

God bless

[Zeno Swijtink]

I'd love to give a response from a Christian view point.

I think you read your own sexual mores back into the text of the New Testament.

As Bruce Malina shows in his article "Does Porneia Mean Fornication?" (Novum Testamentum, Vol. 14, Fasc. 1, Jan., 1977 pp. 10-17) the expression "porneia," that you render as "fornification," does refer to commercial or cultic intercourse with a prostitute, esp. as part of a non-Christian, cultic experience (see excerpt below).

The text of the NT does not reject freely chosen sexual intercourse between a non-married man and woman. Later Christians have started to translate and interpret the text in this way. But Scripture is not on your side!

https://www.sonoma.edu/users/s/swijtink/other/malina.png

[MsTerry]

Butch, are you familiar with codependency?
Where one person will cover for the blindly beloved other person and explain how great this person is, and how this person doesn't do anything bad. No it is somebody else doing to him to make him look bad.
Does this sound familiar?


That would be one heavy bible if He used stone. Why did he come to earth as a man to show us a better way? Why does he use man to spread His message? He could certainly appear to every one of us and say believe in me and my son or else! But then our choice would not be as meaningful as choosing by faith. He will never force Himself on you, which He could easily do. He wants the choice to be all yours.

God bless

[dw41552]

I think you read your own sexual mores back into the text of the New Testament.

As Bruce Malina shows in his article "Does Porneia Mean Fornication?" (Novum Testamentum, Vol. 14, Fasc. 1, Jan., 1977 pp. 10-17) the expression "porneia," that you render as "fornification," does refer to commercial or cultic intercourse with a prostitute, esp. as part of a non-Christian, cultic experience (see excerpt below).

The text of the NT does not reject freely chosen sexual intercourse between a non-married man and woman. Later Christians have started to translate and interpret the text in this way. But Scripture is not on your side!

https://www.sonoma.edu/users/s/swijtink/other/malina.png

The New Testament Greek Lexicon

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top><TABLE width=395><TBODY><TR bgColor=#838b83><TD width=200> Strong's Number: 4202</TD><TD class=toolboxgreek style="COLOR: #ffffff" align=middle width=150>porneiða</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE width=395><TBODY><TR bgColor=#c1cdc1><TD width=197 colSpan=2>Original Word</TD><TD width=197 colSpan=2>Word Origin</TD></TR><TR><TD width=5> </TD><TD class=toolboxgreek vAlign=top width=197>porneiða</TD><TD width=5> </TD><TD vAlign=top width=197>from (4203 (https://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4203))</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#c1cdc1><TD width=197 colSpan=2>Transliterated Word</TD><TD width=197 colSpan=2>Phonetic Spelling</TD></TR><TR><TD width=5> </TD><TD vAlign=top width=197>Porneia</TD><TD width=5> </TD><TD vAlign=top width=197>por-ni'-ah<OBJECT type=application/x-shockwave-flash height=17 width=17 data=https://media.studylight.org/musicplayer.swf?&repeat=false&song_url=https://media.studylight.org/lex/grk/4202g.mp3&> https://www.waccobb.net/forums/noflash.gif </OBJECT></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#c1cdc1><TD width=197 colSpan=2>Parts of Speech</TD><TD width=197 colSpan=2>TDNT</TD></TR><TR><TD width=5> </TD><TD vAlign=top width=197>Noun Feminine</TD><TD width=5> </TD><TD vAlign=top width=197>6:579,918</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#838b83><TD width=395 colSpan=4> Definition</TD></TR><TR><TD width=5> </TD><TD width=395 colSpan=3>
illicit sexual intercourse
adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,
metaph. the worship of idols
of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#838b83><TD width=395 colSpan=4> Translated Words</TD></TR><TR><TD width=5> </TD><TD width=395 colSpan=3>KJV (26) - fornication, 26;
NAS (25) - fornication, 4; fornications, 2; immoralities, 1; immorality, 16; sexual immorality, 1; unchastity, 1;

for·ni·ca·tion
<DT class=pron>Pronunciation: </DT>\ˌfȯr-nə-ˈkā-shən\
<DT class=func>Function: </DT>noun
<DT class=date> </DT>: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other


1 Corinthians 7:8-10


<SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28490 value="8">8</SUP> But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-28491 value="9">9</SUP> but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
God bless


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[dw41552]

Butch, are you familiar with codependency?
Where one person will cover for the blindly beloved other person and explain how great this person is, and how this person doesn't do anything bad. No it is somebody else doing to him to make him look bad.
Does this sound familiar?

I am very familiar with codependency. I was raised by an abusive alcoholic father, but what does this have to do with what I've shared? Are you saying I'm codependent because I believe in Jesus and His perfection and I rely on Him. If that's the case, I say you bet!!!!

[MsTerry]

Have you noticed how Jesus never does anything wrong?
It's either the Devil (the bad God) or your sins that do all the naughty stuff.
And when Jesus is going to blow up the world, (Armageddon) it's our fault.
I know you get something out of this relationship, but can you see how abusive it is?
Was your alcoholic father always blaming you for everything that went wrong too?
Or did he blame your mother?


I am very familiar with codependency. I was raised by an abusive alcoholic father, but what does this have to do with what I've shared? Are you saying I'm codependent because I believe in Jesus and His perfection and I rely on Him. If that's the case, I say you bet!!!!

[dw41552]

Have you noticed how Jesus never does anything wrong?
It's either the Devil (the bad God) or your sins that do all the naughty stuff.
And when Jesus is going to blow up the world, (Armageddon) it's our fault.
I know you get something out of this relationship, but can you see how abusive it is?
Was your alcoholic father always blaming you for everything that went wrong too?
Or did he blame your mother?

You bet! Jesus is the only perfect sinless man to ever walk on this planet.

MsTerry are you blind? Look around you. Who is destroying this world? Who is responsible for all the crime? who is responsible for all the violence? who is responsible for corruption? Who is responsible for the millions of babies starving to death all over the world. WE ARE, by the choices we make. God has been trying to get it through our stupid thick skulls that His way is the way to go for over 5000 years now, yet we still don't listen. 2000 years ago He came to die for our sins and give us another chance to come to his way of thinking. Still we don't listen. Soon the rapture will come and he'll give those left behind another 7 years to make the right choice, and if we don't choose Him by then our time is up, and we certainly won't like the results. God has been extremely patient for over 5000 years, yet we spit in His face and we spit on each other.

My relationship with Jesus Christ is the most loving relationship I've ever had. I believe in Him, and through Him God sheds His grace on me and those that listen.

You on the other hand have different gods. You worship the things of this world, you worship your self, and most of all you live in your own little world of cynisism. You have no hope even though it's within easy reach. Do you know why you are hear MsTerry? Do you know what your purpose is? Do you know where you're going. Life without hope is like being dead on the inside waiting for the outside to catch up. You hear but you don't listen. You mock God, and how good is your life for it?

My father didn't blame me or my mom for anything. He just didn't know how to love. He drank to escape the pain of his lousy abusive childhood, which caused him to become that which he despised the most. But he didn't have to be that way. It was his choice.

God bless

[MsTerry]

You bet! Jesus is the only perfect sinless man to ever walk on this planet.

I assume this means that you have been able to meet and judge every single person that was ever born.



MsTerry are you blind?NO

Look around you. Who is destroying this world? Who is responsible for all the crime? who is responsible for all the violence? who is responsible for corruption? Who is responsible for the millions of babies starving to death all over the world. WE ARE, by the choices we make.It is good to take responsibility for one's own action and not tryto blame it on some outside source.


Soon the rapture will come and he'll give those left behind another 7 years to make the right choice, and if we don't choose Him by then our time is up, and we certainly won't like the results.Does that mean I can sin for a while longer, and only have to repent at the end?


God has been extremely patient for over 5000 years, yet we spit in His face and we spit on each other. Are you using 5000 years arbitrarily or is that when the world began?


My relationship with Jesus Christ is the most loving relationship I've ever had. I believe in Him, and through Him God sheds His grace on me and those that listenI understand that that is true for you.


You on the other hand have different gods. You worship the things of this world, you worship your self, and most of all you live in your own little world of cynisism.This is quite judgmental since you don't know me.


You have no hope even though it's within easy reach.Hope for what?
Do you know why you are hear MsTerry?Yes

Do you know what your purpose is?Yes, To be good and do good to others and show them the light by reflecting back what they are saying.


Do you know where you're going.I always do!
I assume this refers to the afterlife, and in that case, I know as much as you. You might believe you know where you are going, but even that thought contradicts your faith. You told us God will decide where you are going, therefore either way, YOU don't know where you are going


Life without hope is like being dead on the inside waiting for the outside to catch up. Hope for what?

You hear but you don't listen. You mock God, and how good is your life for it?How do I mock God?
Frankly I think it is you who is mocking God.
If you a father would tell your children " if you don't do what I say, I'll kill you and make you suffer for eternity"
Would you consider that person to be a good father?
Would you allow your children to play there?
Would you devote your life and follow such a person?


My father didn't blame me or my mom for anything. He just didn't know how to love. He drank to escape the pain of his lousy abusive childhood, which caused him to become that which he despised the most. But he didn't have to be that way. It was his choice. If your father was trying to drown his childhood, he was also trying to escape his manhood.
You said your father was an abusive alcoholic.
What part was abusive?

[pjpete]

Give it up Terry, if people want to have sex it's their business. If people want Jesus in their lives, it's their business. If people want you as their savior, then we should all pray for them. Religion is a personal approach to one's own salvation. Read "The Third Jesus" by Choopra, you might get a better understanding of Jesus.

[dw41552]

I assume this means that you have been able to meet and judge every single person that was ever born.

I don't know about you but I have never ever heard of anyone else, or know anyone who's heard of anyone else being perfect and who never commited a sin except Jesus.

NOIt is good to take responsibility for one's own action and not tryto blame it on some outside source.

Does that mean I can sin for a while longer, and only have to repent at the end?

It's possible if you know the time of your death, and your repentance was sincere.
Are you using 5000 years arbitrarily or is that when the world began?

Click here: How old is the world? (https://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2004/2004-12-28.htm)

I understand that that is true for you.

The same can be true for anyone regardless of past. The invitation is exrended to all. But one has to be willing to give up the old self, to become new person in Christ.

This is quite judgmental since you don't know me.

Most of the posts you've written to me have been negative. You gone to great lengths to try and trip me up to make yourself look good. You find fault with just about everything I post. You live for the things of this world. You would die before you would admit I may be right. Your posts say a lot about you.

Hope for what?

An eternity with God and eternal bliss.

Yes

You mind sharing what that purpose is?

Yes, To be good and do good to others and show them the light by reflecting back what they are saying.

The last part doesn't make sense.


I always do!
I assume this refers to the afterlife, and in that case, I know as much as you. You might believe you know where you are going, but even that thought contradicts your faith. You told us God will decide where you are going, therefore either way, YOU don't know where you are going

No, I do know where I'm going, because of my faith, just like I know that my God is real through faith. Yes we will all stand before God some day and He will decide where we will go, but because of my faith I know where that is.


Hope for what?

Hope for what comes at the end of our time in this world.

How do I mock God?

You make jokes about Him and Jesus. because you do not agree with their ways. You want everything your way. You want God to fit your agenda instead of the other way around.

Frankly I think it is you who is mocking God.

See this is how you try and take the focus off of yourself and put it on me.

If you a father would tell your children " if you don't do what I say, I'll kill you and make you suffer for eternity"
Would you consider that person to be a good father?
Would you allow your children to play there?
Would you devote your life and follow such a person?

God created us and kills no one, we are all immortal with the freedom to choose how we want to spend eternity either by living His way, which cannot be denied is a much better way, or we can turn our backs on Him and His way. Where ever one ends up is by their own choice and was not forced on them by God or anyone. So if someone ends up in hell, who's to blame?

If your father was trying to drown his childhood, he was also trying to escape his manhood.
You said your father was an abusive alcoholic.
What part was abusive?

How about all of it

God bless

[MsTerry]

No, I do know where I'm going, because of my faith, just like I know that my God is real through faith. Yes we will all stand before God some day and He will decide where we will go, but because of my faith I know where that is.
And where is it you are going Butch? How do you know what God has in store for you?



I don't know about you but I have never ever heard of anyone else, or know anyone who's heard of anyone else being perfect and who never commited a sin except JesusIf you have read the bible, you must know about the missing years.
Conveniently they also happen to be the years where most kids, teens or young adults happen to get in trouble.
How do you know what Jesus did in those years?
Have you heard of Ghandi?


Click here: How old is the world? (https://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2004/2004-12-28.htm)Oh Boy, Butch, I guess you also believe we all came from Adam and Eve?
(BTW that would mean you believe in incest too)


Most of the posts you've written to me have been negative. You gone to great lengths to try and trip me up to make yourself look good. You find fault with just about everything I post. That is strange that you perceive someone who asks Q's about your faith to be negative.
I've found your line of thinking to be a contradiction in terms, are you troubled by that?


You live for the things of this world.LOL since I am typing this while staying at a monastery.

You would die before you would admit I may be right. Your posts say a lot about you.

I think this is something that is about yourself?
Have you ever admitted that there are things you are only allowed to see from a faith POV, not from logic or reality and that you might be wrong?



You make jokes about Him and Jesus. because you do not agree with their ways.What are you referring to?


If you a father would tell your children " if you don't do what I say, I'll kill you and make you suffer for eternity"
Would you consider that person to be a good father?
Would you allow your children to play there?
Would you devote your life and follow such a person?You are side stepping this question.


If your father was trying to drown his childhood, he was also trying to escape his manhood.
You said your father was an abusive alcoholic.
What part was abusive?

How about all of itYou're switching horses. If he was that abusive, then he was blaming someone else to justify his behavior. It is that simple.

[Zeno Swijtink]

Shouts & Murmurs: Amen, Brother: Humor: The New Yorker (https://www.newyorker.com/humor/2009/04/27/090427sh_shouts_rudnick)
by Paul Rudnick
APRIL 27, 2009

KEYWORDS
Ted Haggard; Pastors; Christians; Evangelicals; Gays (Homosexuals); Religion; Therapy

What my therapist says is that I am a heterosexual with issues.
—Ted Haggard.

Thank you, Ted, and God bless you, Ted’s therapist. My name is Stan Belker, and I’m the pastor here at Our Lady of the Irredeemable Sinner, in Nashville, and, just like Ted, I, too, have struggled with my sexuality and have come out the other side, into the good green pastures of Christian family life.

As a teen-ager, I found that I was attracted both to serving Our Lord and to Jimmy Wiggins, the assistant coach of my high-school soccer team. I was in torment, and I would pray for hours on end, asking God why He would command me to love Him so deeply and at the same time just go and create Jimmy’s snug little soccer shorts. I told my clergyman, Father Josiah, about my conflicting urges, and he tried to reconcile them by explaining that from certain angles Jesus looks just like Dennis Quaid. Still, I had agonizing doubts: was I just experiencing a completely normal phase of adolescent uncertainty, or were Jimmy Wiggins’s firm, high buttocks really a calling card from Satan?

I became determined to change, to lead a wholly Christian life. In college, I began to date. At first, I took things slow, and I went out with only the most pious, virginal girls, who luckily often had strong, masculine jawlines. I became pre-engaged to Mary Ann Collier, and we’d sit in her sorority’s front parlor reading Scripture together. “I think that St. Francis and St. Michael are my favorite holy men,” Mary Ann said one evening. “You’re right about Francis,” I said. “He’s to die for, but Michael should work on his calf muscles.” “Stan,” Mary Ann asked me, “is there something you’d like to tell me?” “Yes, there is,” I replied gratefully. “I’d just like you to know that, if it weren’t for the teachings of Our Lord, I would very much enjoy having sexual intercourse with you. But, because of our shared beliefs, I’ll just have to make do with my lonely dorm room and this issue of Men’s Fitness, the one with all those great ab routines.”

I was in college when I had my first sexual encounter with a man—Brad Bicknell, a student in my Christian Values seminar. One day, as we stood side by side at the urinals discussing the importance of abstinence, Brad asked me out to dinner. “But just as friends and Christian study buddies,” he assured me. “I have absolutely no intention of allowing our eyes to lock over the bread basket, because that would only lead to the surprisingly roomy back seat of my Toyota Celica, where we’d be forced to grapple with each other’s moist, engorged man areas.”

I’ll be honest; I was curious. I needed to know exactly what sexual activity with another fellow might entail, so I could be ashamed of it. I warned Brad that, while I would be willing to sleep with him as a very small part of my journey to Christian wholeness, I didn’t intend to enjoy the experience. In fact, while we were going at it, I said, “Brad, while what you’re doing feels unbelievably good and just might cause my entire body to explode, it’s nothing compared with what I hope to one day experience with my future wife, if she’s double-jointed.”

But I knew that what Brad and I were doing was wrong, especially after the fifty-eighth time. That was when I told Brad, quite firmly, “Brad, our being together is sinful and will only impede our development as responsible Christian adults. And your mustache tickles.” The very next day, I met Stacy Crothers, the beautiful, adoring, steadfast woman who would become my wife. When I first met Stacy, in the cafeteria, I was smitten with her shy smile, her sparkling conversation, and the family photographs that she proudly took from her wallet, which included several snapshots of her sturdy quarterback brother, Frank, at the beach in a Speedo. “I have a very good feeling about us,” I told Stacy on that very first day.

After a blissfully romantic courtship lasting only twelve years, Stacy and I were married. We had decided to save ourselves for our wedding night, because, as I reminded Stacy over and over, “The first time I make love to a woman, I want it to be sacred and special, and not just mindless, unending pleasure, like sex with a guy.” And I have to say that, in the bedroom, Stacy and I got along like a house afire, especially if that house was willing to respond to the nickname Skipper.

But I’m not perfect. Like any human being, I had the occasional odd desire, the stray thought, the random yearning to, for example, seduce a seventeen-year-old lad after choir practice. Thanks to my years of work with a gifted therapist, I now fully realize that my actions were inappropriate, even though they were listed in boldface on the daily church calendar, as “Nude Prayer,” “Nude Prayer in the Basement,” and “Nude Prayer with Mutual Body Scrub.”

So, yes, I was flawed, but my commitment to my parishioners, my wife, and my family remained my primary focus, until finally I was caught on tape, attempting to buy crystal meth, sexual services, and a plus-size tube top from a male prostitute. Of course, at the time, in my innocence, I didn’t realize that Jack was a drug dealer and a prostitute; I assumed that his offer of drugs and orgies was just an expression of low self-esteem, and his way of telling me, “After we do the crystal and have sex with all these guys, I’d really like to talk about the story of Ruth.” I felt that I was counselling Jack, sometimes for days at a time, in our cheap motel room, where I would always place a full-color photo portrait of my family atop the minibar.

When the truth finally came out, on every news show in the country, at first I was devastated, and I imagined that I would lose everything, including my church, my family, and my ten-per-cent Clergyman’s Discount with Jack. But you know what? When I was being reviled on every front page, when I was hiding from the media in my den, clutching a bottle of bourbon, when I was trying to explain to Stacy that a male prostitute is just like Mary Magdalene in “Jesus Christ Superstar,” that was when I truly felt the presence of my Saviour. That was when I heard the Lord say unto me, “Stan, now you can begin to truly know thyself, and therefore to know God. Stan, now your spiritual journey can really begin. Stan, put down that bottle and that copy of People’s Sexiest Man Alive issue with Hugh Jackman on the cover, because he’s never going to write back.”

And since that day I have lived in the light. My wife and I have spent months in counselling, screaming and sobbing and finally coming back together, over our shared love for Christian living and early Jean-Claude Van Damme films. And I have told my children and my church that Stan Belker isn’t perfect, and he’s never going to be perfect. That Stan Belker is going to try with all his might to lead a clean Christian life, even if every now and then he still has a yen to offer Keanu Reeves a papal blessing in exchange for his underpants.

But those thoughts, those blips, they’re not who I am. Just like Ted Haggard, I can take responsibility for my actions. Because when I saw Ted on “Oprah,” spilling his guts, promoting his HBO special, and staying a good few feet away from his wife on the couch, I thought, Ted, if you can make it, I can make it. Together we can move forward, into the clean bright light of the Christian dawn. Together we can make only the most righteous choices. Together we will become decent Christian adults. Call me?

[dw41552]

And where is it you are going Butch? How do you know what God has in store for you?

Heaven. Because He said so.

If you have read the bible, you must know about the missing years.
Conveniently they also happen to be the years where most kids, teens or young adults happen to get in trouble.
How do you know what Jesus did in those years?
Have you heard of Ghandi?

Don't have to read the bible to figure this one out. God is perfect, and God came to earth as a the man Jesus. God is perfect, so Jesus has to be perfect.

Oh Boy, Butch, I guess you also believe we all came from Adam and Eve?
(BTW that would mean you believe in incest too)

You bet. Adam and Eve were the first, and only human beings. Their children had no choice but to intermarry, as a result of this, incest was not a sin back then.

Also, Adam and Eve had a pure genetic code. Consequently, it was safe for their children to intermarry. God did not forbid intermarriage until the time of Moses (Leviticus 18), when there was enough people that intermarriage was not necessary.

That is strange that you perceive someone who asks Q's about your faith to be negative.

You and I both know you don't believe a word I write, and your agenda is to try and trip me up which like I said would make you feel good about yourself, which is why after this I will no longer waste my time with you.

I've found your line of thinking to be a contradiction in terms, are you troubled by that?

Not at all. You've said similar a couple of times already, but you have not shown me one contradiction in anything I've posted yet. The only thing you've shown me is what you percieve to be a contradiction, but have proven nothing.

LOL since I am typing this while staying at a monastery.

You either live for God, or you live for the world. There is no in between.

I think this is something that is about yourself?
Have you ever admitted that there are things you are only allowed to see from a faith POV, not from logic or reality and that you might be wrong?

I see what I see because of my faith, and logic. History tells us Jesus is a real person, a great teacher and performed many miracles. There's no question He walked in our midst 2000 years ago. So knowing that, logic tells me He has to be who He says He is or He could not have performed the many miracles He did.

What are you referring to?
You are side stepping this question.

Jesus already knew 2000 years ago what kind of sins everybody was going to commit? He sounds irresponsible, taking the easy way out by basically committing suicide and then slipping away to heaven.
If he knew what was coming, he should've prevented all this suffering!

Sounds like mocking to me.<!-- / message --><!-- Waccco: reduce Top Margin <div style="margin-top: 10px" align="right"> -->

You're switching horses. If he was that abusive, then he was blaming someone else to justify his behavior. It is that simple.

What, are you a shrink now? Did you know my father? No, you didn't so you don't have a clue about him.

God Bless

[MsTerry]

You bet. Adam and Eve were the first, and only human beings. Their children had no choice but to intermarry, as a result of this, incest was not a sin back then.

Also, Adam and Eve had a pure genetic code. Consequently, it was safe for their children to intermarry. God did not forbid intermarriage until the time of Moses (Leviticus 18), when there was enough people that intermarriage was not necessary.


Butch, you must have written your last post in anger, you even left out God Bless.
I have not mocked you, even though you might feel this way, I only questioned the foundation of your beliefs.
I can tell that it's hard for you to swallow that there are people who have a different interpretation of the bible.
Let me remind you that the New Testament was not written by Jesus' apostles, but in fact a few hundred years later and was the result of an oral transmission (and subsequent alteration)
Most people don't take the bible literally since this leads to extremism and misinterpretation. (see your sample above)
We're all struggling to become a better person, on a daily basis.
I'm glad to hear that you are convinced that you will end up in heaven, whatever that may be and wherever that may be.
Take care.

[dw41552]

Butch, you must have written your last post in anger, you even left out God Bless.
I have not mocked you, even though you might feel this way, I only questioned the foundation of your beliefs.
I can tell that it's hard for you to swallow that there are people who have a different interpretation of the bible.
Let me remind you that the New Testament was not written by Jesus' apostles, but in fact a few hundred years later and was the result of an oral transmission (and subsequent alteration)
Most people don't take the bible literally since this leads to extremism and misinterpretation. (see your sample above)
We're all struggling to become a better person, on a daily basis.
I'm glad to hear that you are convinced that you will end up in heaven, whatever that may be and wherever that may be.
Take care.

MsTerry I humbly apologize. Please forgive me! Like I said before I'm a work in progress. You're right! I do get frustrated. Believe it or not I really do care about people. Before I was Born again I cared for no one but myself except for my son. Since then God has taught me that loving others is putting their needs before my own, and expect nothing in return. And I want everyone to know the peace I know now compared to what I knew before, to be able to love like never before. In the past I would have told everyone here who disagreed with me to F off and never wrote another post. Shoot For that matter I would have never even responded to this Web site. Today I work as a volunteer with street kids and I love it and it has become a huge passion of mine. A few years ago these kids were nothing but punks to me, but God has shown me, I am them, and they are me, by reminding me how it felt to be abused and abandoned just like them. Jesus is turning me into someone He can use to help these kids. Imagine taking a macho, egotistical, screwed up, fight at the drop of a hat, 6'- 4" 300lb. bully like I was, and turning me into what the kids call me, a big old teddy bear. Those Kids I used to write off I love to death. I could not have gotten to where I am, without Jesus. I promise you, I did not get here on my own. I spent most of my life fighting Him, but He won and I thank God He did. I was a broken man and Jesus picked me up out of the gutter and cleaned me up and now he uses me to give those broken kids what they are all looking for and that is love, someone to be there for them, and I can't imagine a better purpose for my life. Sorry I didn't mean to rattle on. It's just really hard to keep these kinds of emotions to myself.

As far as when the 27 books of the new testament were written and by who, this is my understanding. These are approximate dates when they were written, in order, and the author.

James - 45 - 48 AD by James, believed to be the half brother Of Jesus.
The Gospel of Mathew - 50 AD by the Apostle Matthew.
Thessalonians 1 & 2 - 50 - 54 AD by The Apostle Paul These were actually letters to the Thessalonians from Paul.
Corinthians 1 - 54 - 55 AD by the Apostle Paul. This is actually the second letter Paul wrote to the Corinthians. The first one was lost.
Corinthians 2 - 56 - 57 AD by the Apostle Paul. This is actually the fourth letter Paul wrote to the Corinthians. The third one was also lost.
Romans - 57 - 58 AD by the Apostle Paul. Physically written by Tertias, dictated by Paul.
The Gospel of Mark - 57 - 59 AD by Mark an associate of the Apostle Peter.
The Gospel of Luke - 58 - 60 AD by Doctor Luke, a traveling companion of the Apostle Paul.
Ephesians - 60 AD by the Apostle Paul.
Colossians - 60 - 61 AD by the Apostle Paul and Timothy.
Philippians - 61 - 62 AD by the Apostle Paul and Timothy.
Philemon - 62 AD by the Apostle Paul and Timothy.
Acts - 60 - 62 AD by Doctor Luke.
1, 2, and 3 John - 60 - 65 AD by the Apostle John.
1 Timothy and Titus - 63 - 66 AD by the Apostle Paul.
1 Peter - 64 AD by the Apostle Peter.
2 Peter - 64 - 68 AD by the Apostle Peter.
2 Timothy - 67 AD by the Apostle Paul. His last letter.
Hebrews - 68 - 69 AD Author unknown. Many believe it was Barnabas, another of Apostle Paul's traveling companions.
Jude - 67 - 80 AD by Jude, also believed to be a half brother of Jesus.
The Gospel of John - 85 - 95 AD by the Apostle John.
Revelations - 95 - 96 AD by the Apostle John the only Apostle to die a natural death. The rest were all martyred.

<DIR><DIR>Andrew: Crucified.
Bartholomew: Crucified.
James, son of Alphaeus: Crucified.
James, son of Zebedee: Death by the sword.
Matthew: Death by the sword.
Peter: Crucified upside-down at his own request (he did not feel worthy to be crucified in the same manner as the Lord).
Philip: Crucified.
Simon the Zealot: Crucified.
Thaddaeus: Death by arrows.
Thomas: Death by a spear thrust.

</DIR></DIR>As you can see most of the New Testament was in fact written by the Apostles, and all of it was written Within the first hundred years AD.

Most people don't take the bible literally since this leads to extremism and misinterpretation.

The world is full of extremism. We are surrounded by it, bombarded with it daily. It takes extremism to wake us up, especially considering how extremely stubborn we are. The misinterpretations come from a lack of faith and trying to interpret with ones own understanding. In other words it is my faith that gives me understanding. I didn't get hardly anything the bible said until my desire to understand was sincere, and I was willing to open my mind to God to help me get what I was reading. Now I see the beauty of Jesus words and how perfect they are. If we were to live our lives according to how the New Testament tells us to, this world would be an absolute paradise. But it's us living outside of God's will that makes this a hell on earth.

We're all struggling to become a better person, on a daily basis

I wish that were true MsTerry believe me, but I have to disagree. Most people stumble through life not having a clue why they're here or what their purpose is because most don't care. This has become a narcissistic society. We grow and move forward scientifically and technologically, but we go backwards mentally and emotionally. The world is not becoming a better place. It's become a dangerous, scary place. I remember the day you could send your 10 year old kid to the grocery store and not have to worry whether or not he would be safe. Shoot today I worry every time my 17 year old son walks out the door. Parental stress over the safety of their children is ten fold from when I was a kid. When I became old enough to understand, I was able to see pride and love of this country. Now all I see is whining and complaining and no body willing to do anything about it. When our country was attacked at Pearl harbor and we lost 3000 of our fellow countrymen, people flooded the recruiting stations in droves so they could do their part to protect our freedom. They couldn't get signed up fast enough because they put their country first. After the killing of 3000 of our fellow countrymen in 9/11 the recruiting stations actually saw a drop in recruiting. People just don't care about this country or their neighbors like we did 40, 50 years ago. Our world is on the brink of self annihilation because we've lost the desire to put others before ourselves, to look out and stand up for those around us, to lend a helping hand, and we've lost these because we've lost our faith.

I'm glad to hear that you are convinced that you will end up in heaven, whatever that may be and wherever that may be.

I'm convinced it's there for you too, and I hope some day you'll be as convinced as I am
God bless

[MsTerry]

I don't know about you but I have never ever heard of anyone else, or know anyone who's heard of anyone else being perfect and who never commited a sin except Jesus.

I forgot to show you this,
Conception and birth

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Maya_Devi_temple-Nepal.JPG/180px-Maya_Devi_temple-Nepal.JPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maya_Devi_temple-Nepal.JPG) https://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maya_Devi_temple-Nepal.JPG)
Maya Devi Temple in Lumbini (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumbini), Nepal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepal).


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Birth_of_Buddha_at_Lumbini.jpg/180px-Birth_of_Buddha_at_Lumbini.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Birth_of_Buddha_at_Lumbini.jpg) https://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Birth_of_Buddha_at_Lumbini.jpg)
Birth of Buddha at Lumbini. Picture of a painting in a Laotian Temple.


Siddhartha was born in Lumbini (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumbini)<sup id="cite_ref-6" class="reference">[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuddHa#cite_note-6)</sup> and raised in the small kingdom or principality of Kapilvastu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapilvastu), both of which are in modern day Nepal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepal). At the time of the Buddha's birth, the area was at or beyond the boundary of Vedic civilization; it is even possible that his mother tongue was not an Indo-Aryan language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_language).<sup id="cite_ref-7" class="reference">[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuddHa#cite_note-7)</sup> His community does not seem to have had a caste system, and their society was not structured according to Brahminical theory. It was not a monarchy, and seems to have been structured either as an oligarchy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy), or as a form of republic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic).<sup id="cite_ref-8" class="reference">[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuddHa#cite_note-8)</sup> According to the traditional biography, however, his father was King Suddhodana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suddhodana), the chief of the Shakya nation, one of several ancient tribes in the growing state of Kosala (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosala); Gautama was the family name (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_name). His mother, Queen Maha Maya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Maya) (Māyādevī) and Suddhodana's wife, was a Koliyan (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Koliya&action=edit&redlink=1) princess. On the night Siddhartha was conceived, Queen Maya dreamt that a white elephant with six white tusks entered her right side<sup id="cite_ref-9" class="reference">[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuddHa#cite_note-9)</sup>, and ten lunar months (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_month) later Siddhartha was born. As was the Shakya tradition, when his mother Queen Maya became pregnant, she left Kapilvastu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapilvastu) for her father's kingdom to give birth. However, she gave birth on the way, at Lumbini (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumbini), in a garden beneath a sal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorea_robusta) tree.
The day of the Buddha's birth is widely celebrated in Theravada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theravada) countries as Vesak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesak).<sup id="cite_ref-10" class="reference">[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuddHa#cite_note-10)</sup> Various sources hold that the Buddha's mother died at his birth, a few days or seven days later. The infant was given the name Siddhartha (Pāli: Siddhatta), meaning "he who achieves his aim". During the birth celebrations, the hermit seer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clairvoyance) Asita (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asita) journeyed from his mountain abode and announced that the child would either become a great king (chakravartin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakravartin)) or a great holy man (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadhu).<sup class="noprint Template-Fact">[citation needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]</sup> This occurred after Siddhartha placed his feet in Asita's hair and Asita examined the birthmarks. Suddhodarna held a naming ceremony on the fifth day, and invited eight brahmin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin) scholars to read the future. All gave a dual prediction that the baby would either become a great king or a great holy man.<sup class="noprint Template-Fact">[citation needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]</sup> Kaundinya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaundinya) (Pali: Kondanna), the youngest, and later to be the first arahant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arahant), was the only one who unequivocally predicted that Siddhartha would become a Buddha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood).<sup id="cite_ref-11" class="reference">[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuddHa#cite_note-11)</sup>
While later tradition and legend characterized Śuddhodana as a hereditary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereditary) monarch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarch), the descendant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinship_and_descent) of the Solar Dynasty of Ikṣvāku (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikshvaku) (Pāli: Okkāka), many scholars believe that Śuddhodana was the elected chief of a tribal confederacy.

Early life and marriage

Siddhartha, destined to a luxurious life as a prince, had three palaces (for seasonal occupation) especially built for him. His father, King Śuddhodana, wishing for Siddhartha to be a great king, shielded his son from religious teachings or knowledge of human suffering (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha). Siddhartha was brought up by his mother's younger sister, Maha Pajapati (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahapajapati_Gotami).<sup id="cite_ref-narada_14_12-0" class="reference">[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuddHa#cite_note-narada_14-12)</sup>
As the boy reached the age of 16, his father arranged his marriage to Yaśodharā (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yashodhara) (Pāli: Yasodharā), a cousin of the same age. Though this is the traditional account, an early source casts doubt as to the historicity of his married life.<sup id="cite_ref-13" class="reference">[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuddHa#cite_note-13)</sup> According to the traditional account, in time, she gave birth to a son, Rahula (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahula). Siddhartha spent 29 years as a Prince in Kapilavastu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapilavastu). Although his father ensured that Siddhartha was provided with everything he could want or need, Siddhartha felt that material wealth was not the ultimate goal of life.<sup id="cite_ref-narada_14_12-1" class="reference">[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuddHa#cite_note-narada_14-12)</sup>

Departure and Ascetic Life

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/Great_Departure.JPG/180px-Great_Departure.JPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Great_Departure.JPG) https://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Great_Departure.JPG)
The Great Departure. Gandhara, 2nd century CE.


At the age of 29, Siddhartha left his palace in order to meet his subjects. Despite his father's effort to remove the sick, aged and suffering from the public view, Siddhartha was said to have seen an old man. Disturbed by this, when told that all people would eventually grow old by his charioteer Channa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channa_%28Buddhist%29), the prince went on further trips where he encountered, variously, a diseased (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease) man, a decaying corpse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body), and an ascetic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism). Deeply depressed by these sights, he sought to overcome old age, illness, and death by living the life of an ascetic.
Siddhartha escaped his palace, accompanied by Channa aboard his horse Kanthaka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanthaka), leaving behind this royal life to become a mendicant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendicant). It is said that, "the horse's hooves were muffled by the gods"<sup id="cite_ref-14" class="reference">[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuddHa#cite_note-14)</sup> to prevent guards from knowing the Bodhisatta's departure. This event is traditionally called "The Great Departure".
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/EmaciatedBuddha.JPG/140px-EmaciatedBuddha.JPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EmaciatedBuddha.JPG) https://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EmaciatedBuddha.JPG)
The Buddha as an ascetic. Gandhara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara), 2-3rd century CE. British Museum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Museum).


Siddhartha initially went to Rajagaha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajgir) and began his ascetic life by begging for alms in the street. Having been recognised by the men of King Bimbisara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bimbisara), Bimbisara offered him the throne after hearing of Siddhartha's quest. Siddhartha rejected the offer, but promised to visit his kingdom of Magadha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magadha) first, upon attaining enlightenment.
Siddhartha left Rajagaha and practised under two hermit teachers. After mastering the teachings of Alara Kalama (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alara_Kalama&action=edit&redlink=1) (Skr. Ārāḍa Kālāma), Siddhartha was asked by Kalama to succeed him, but moved on after being unsatisfied with his practices. He then became a student of Udaka Ramaputta (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Udaka_Ramaputta&action=edit&redlink=1) (Skr. Udraka Rāmaputra), but although he achieved high levels of meditative consciousness and was asked to succeed Ramaputta, he was still not satisfied with his path, and moved on.<sup id="cite_ref-15" class="reference">[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuddHa#cite_note-15)</sup>
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/Gandhara_Buddha_%28tnm%29.jpeg/180px-Gandhara_Buddha_%28tnm%29.jpeg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gandhara_Buddha_%28tnm%29.jpeg) https://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gandhara_Buddha_%28tnm%29.jpeg)
Gandhara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara) Buddha. 1st–2nd century CE, Tokyo National Museum.


Siddhartha and a group of five companions led by Kondanna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaundinya) then set out to take their austerities even further. They tried to find enlightenment through near total deprivation of worldly goods, including food, practising self-mortification (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_of_the_flesh). After nearly starving himself to death by restricting his food intake to around a leaf or nut per day, he collapsed in a river while bathing and almost drowned. Siddhartha began to reconsider his path. Then, he remembered a moment in childhood in which he had been watching his father start the season's plowing, and he had fallen into a naturally concentrated and focused state that was blissful and refreshing, the jhana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhana).

Enlightenment

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/PrinceSiddhartha.JPG/180px-PrinceSiddhartha.JPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PrinceSiddhartha.JPG) https://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PrinceSiddhartha.JPG)
Prince Siddhartha Gautama (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhartha_Gautama) or Supreme Buddha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood).


After asceticism and concentrating on meditation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation) and Anapana-sati (awareness of breathing in and out), Siddhartha is said to have discovered what Buddhists call the Middle Way (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_way)—a path of moderation away from the extremes of self-indulgence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonism) and self-mortification. He accepted a little milk and rice pudding from a village girl named Sujata (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sujata), who wrongly believed him to be the spirit that had granted her a wish, such was his emaciated appearance. Then, sitting under a pipal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipal) tree, now known as the Bodhi tree (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi_tree) in Bodh Gaya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodh_Gaya), India (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India), he vowed never to arise until he had found the Truth. Kaundinya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaundinya) and the other four companions, believing that he had abandoned his search and become undisciplined, left. After 49 days meditating, at the age of 35, he attained Enlightenment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi); according to some traditions, this occurred approximately in the fifth lunar month, and according to others in the twelfth. Gautama, from then on, was known as the Buddha or "Awakened One." Buddha is also sometimes translated as "The Enlightened One." Often, he is referred to in Buddhism as Shakyamuni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakyamuni) Buddha or "The Awakened One of the Shakya Clan."
At this point, he is believed to have realized complete awakening and insight into the nature and cause of human suffering which was ignorance, along with steps necessary to eliminate it. This was then categorized into 'Four Noble Truths (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths)'; the state of supreme liberation—possible for any being—was called Nirvana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana). He then allegedly came to possess the Nine Characteristics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood#Nine_characteristics), which are said to belong to every Buddha.
According to one of the stories in the Āyācana Sutta (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%C4%80y%C4%81cana_Sutta&action=edit&redlink=1) (Samyutta Nikaya VI.1), a scripture found in the Pāli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81li) and other canons (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/canon), immediately after his Enlightenment, the Buddha was wondering whether or not he should teach the Dharma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_%28Buddhism%29) to human beings. He was concerned that, as human beings were overpowered by greed, hatred and delusion, they would not be able to see the true dharma, which was subtle, deep and hard to understand. However, Brahmā Sahampati (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahma_%28Buddhism%29#Brahm.C4.81_Sahampati), interceded and asked that he teach the dharma to the world, as "there will be those who will understand the Dharma". With his great compassion to all beings in the universe, the Buddha agreed to become a teacher.

Formation of the sangha

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Sermon_in_the_Deer_Park_depicted_at_Wat_Chedi_Liem-KayEss-1.jpeg/150px-Sermon_in_the_Deer_Park_depicted_at_Wat_Chedi_Liem-KayEss-1.jpeg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sermon_in_the_Deer_Park_depicted_at_Wat_Chedi_Liem-KayEss-1.jpeg) https://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sermon_in_the_Deer_Park_depicted_at_Wat_Chedi_Liem-KayEss-1.jpeg)
Painting of the first sermon depicted at Wat Chedi Liem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wat_Chedi_Liem) in Thailand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thailand).


After becoming enlightened, two merchants whom the Buddha met, named Tapussa (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tapussa&action=edit&redlink=1) and Bhallika (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bhallika&action=edit&redlink=1) became the first lay disciples. They are given some hairs from the Buddha's head, which are believed to now be enshrined in the Shwe Dagon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shwe_Dagon) Temple in Rangoon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangoon), Burma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma). The Buddha intended to visit Asita (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asita), and his former teachers, Alara Kalama (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alara_Kalama&action=edit&redlink=1) and Uddaka Ramaputta (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Uddaka_Ramaputta&action=edit&redlink=1) to explain his findings, but they had already died.
The Buddha thus journeyed to Deer Park near Vārāṇasī (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varanasi) (Benares) in northern India, he set in motion the Wheel of Dharma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmacakra) by delivering his first sermon to the group of five companions with whom he had previously sought enlightenment. They, together with the Buddha, formed the first saṅgha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangha), the company of Buddhist monks, and hence, the first formation of Triple Gem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Gem) (Buddha, Dharma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_%28Buddhism%29) and Sangha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangha)) was completed, with Kaundinya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaundinya) becoming the first stream-enterer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream-enterer). All five soon become arahants, and with the conversion of Yasa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasa) and fifty four of his friends, the number of arahants swelled to 60 within the first two months. The conversion of the three Kassapa brothers and their 200, 300 and 500 disciples swelled the sangha over 1000, and they were dispatched to explain the dharma to the populace.
It is unknown what language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language) the Buddha spoke, and no conclusive documentation has been made at this point. However, some modern scholars, primarily philologists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philologist), believe it is most likely that the Buddha spoke a vulgate then current in eastern India, Mâgadhî Prakrit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magadhi_Prakrit).

Travels and teaching

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/TheBuddhaAndVajrapaniGandhara2ndCentury.jpg/180px-TheBuddhaAndVajrapaniGandhara2ndCentury.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TheBuddhaAndVajrapaniGandhara2ndCentury.jpg) https://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TheBuddhaAndVajrapaniGandhara2ndCentury.jpg)
Gautama Buddha with his protector Vajrapani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrapani) (here holding a flywisk). Gandhara, 2nd century CE.


For the remaining 45 years of his life, the Buddha is said to have traveled in the Gangetic Plain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangetic_Plain), in what is now Uttar Pradesh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh), Bihar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar) and southern Nepal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepal), teaching his doctrine and discipline to an extremely diverse range of people— from nobles to outcaste (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit_%28outcast%29) street sweepers, mass murderers such as Angulimala (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angulimala) and cannibals such as Alavaka (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alavaka&action=edit&redlink=1). This extended to many adherents of rival philosophies and religions. The Buddha founded the community of Buddhist monks and nuns (the Sangha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangha)) to continue the dispensation after his Parinirvāna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parinirvana) (Pāli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81li): Parinibbāna) or "complete Nirvāna", and made thousands of converts. His religion was open to all races and classes and had no caste (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste) structure. He was also subject to attack from opposition religious groups, including attempted murders and framings.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Sakyamuni_cuts_his_hair%2C_Tang_Dynasty.jpg/150px-Sakyamuni_cuts_his_hair%2C_Tang_Dynasty.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sakyamuni_cuts_his_hair,_Tang_Dynasty.jpg) https://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sakyamuni_cuts_his_hair,_Tang_Dynasty.jpg)
A Tang Dynasty (618–907 AD) Chinese silk landscape painting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_painting) depicting the young Sakyamuni shaving his head. This is one of the earliest visual presentations of the Gautama Buddha in the history of painting


The sangha travelled from place to place in India, expounding the dharma. This occurred throughout the year, except during the four months of the vassana (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vassana&action=edit&redlink=1) rainy season. Due to the heavy amount of flooding, travelling was difficult, and ascetics of all religions in that time did not travel, since it was more difficult to do so without stepping on submerged animal life, unwittingly killing them. During this period, the sangha would retreat to a monastery, public park or a forest and people would come to them.
The first vassana was spent at Varanasi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varanasi) when the sangha was first formed. After this, he travelled to Rajagaha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajagaha), the capital of Magadha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magadha) to visit King Bimbisara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bimbisara), in accordance with his promise after enlightenment. It was during this visit that Sariputta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sariputta) and Mahamoggallana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahamoggallana) were converted by Assaji (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assaji), one of the first five disciples; they were to become the Buddha's two foremost disciples. The Buddha then spent the next three seasons at Veluvana Bamboo Grove monastery in Rajagaha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajagaha), the capital of Magadha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magadha). The monastery, which was of a moderate distance from the city centre was donated by Bimbisara.
Upon hearing of the enlightenment, Suddhodana dispatched royal delegations to ask the Buddha to return to Kapilavastu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapilavastu). Nine delegations were sent in all, but the delegates joined the sangha and became arahants. Neglecting worldly matters, they did not convey their message. The tenth delegation, led by Kaludayi (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kaludayi&action=edit&redlink=1), a childhood friend, resulted in the message being successfully conveyed as well as becoming an arahant. Since it was not the vassana, the Buddha agreed, and two years after his enlightenment, took a two month journey to Kapilavastu by foot, preaching the dharma along the way. Upon his return, the royal palace had prepared the midday meal, but since no specific invitation had come, the sangha went for an alms round in Kapilavastu. Hearing this, Suddhodana hastened to approach the Buddha, stating "Ours is the warrior lineage of Mahamassata, and not a single warrior has gone seeking alms", to which the Buddha replied

That is not the custom of your royal lineage. But it is the custom of my Buddha lineage. Several thousands of Buddhas have gone by seeking alms

Suddhodana invited the sangha back to the royal palace for the meal, followed by a dharma talk, after which he became a sotapanna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sotapanna). During the visit, many members of the royal family joined the sangha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangha). His cousins Ananda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ananda) and Anuruddha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anuruddha) were to become two of his five chief disciples. His son Rahula (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahula) also joined the sangha at the age of seven, and was one of the ten chief disciples. His half-brother Nanda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanda) also joined the sangha and became an arahant. Another cousin Devadatta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta) also became a monk although he later became an enemy and tried to kill the Buddha on multiple occasions.
Of his disciples, Sariputta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sariputta), Mahamoggallana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahamoggallana), Mahakasyapa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahakasyapa), Ananda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ananda) and Anuruddha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anuruddha) comprised the five chief disciples. His ten foremost disciples were completed by the quintet of Upali (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upali), Subhoti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhoti), Rahula (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahula), Mahakaccana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahakaccana) and Punna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punna).
In the fifth vassana, the Buddha was staying at Mahavana near Vesali (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesali). Hearing of the impending death of Suddhodana, the Buddha went to his father and preached the dharma, and Suddhodana became an arahant prior to death. The death and cremation led to the creation of the order of nuns. Buddhist texts record that he was reluctant to ordain women as nuns. His foster mother Maha Pajapati (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maha_Pajapati) approached him asking to join the sangha, but the Buddha refused, and began the journey from Kapilavastu back to Rajagaha. Maha Pajapati was so intent on renouncing the world that she led a group of royal Sakyan and Koliyan ladies, following the sangha to Rajagaha. The Buddha eventually accepted them five years after the formation of the Sangha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangha) on the grounds that their capacity for enlightenment was equal to that of men, but he gave them certain additional rules (Vinaya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinaya)) to follow. This occurred after Ananda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ananda) interceded on their behalf. Yasodhara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasodhara) also became a nun, with both becoming arahants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arahant).
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Devadatta_attacking_Buddha.jpg/180px-Devadatta_attacking_Buddha.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Devadatta_attacking_Buddha.jpg) https://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Devadatta_attacking_Buddha.jpg)
Devadatta tries to attack the Buddha. Picture of a wallpainting in a Laotian monastery.


During his ministry, Devadatta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devadatta) (who was not an arahant) frequently tried to undermine the Buddha. At one point Devadatta asked the Buddha to stand aside to let him lead the sangha. The Buddha declined, and stated that Devadatta's actions did not reflect on the Triple Gem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Gem), but on him alone. Devadatta conspired with Prince Ajatasattu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajatasattu), son of Bimbisara, so that they would kill and usurp the Buddha and Bimbisara respectively. Devadatta attempted three times to kill the Buddha. The first attempt involved the hiring of a group of archers, whom upon meeting the Buddha became disciples. A second attempt followed when Devadatta attempted to roll a large boulder down a hill. It hit another rock and splintered, only grazing the Buddha in the foot. A final attempt by plying an elephant with alcohol and setting it loose again failed. Failing this, Devadatta attempted to cause a schism in the sangha, by proposing extra restrictions on the vinaya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinaya). When the Buddha declined, Devadatta started a breakaway order, criticising the Buddha's laxity. At first, he managed to convert some of the bhikkhus, but Sariputta and Mahamoggallana expounded the dharma to them and succeeded in winning them back.
When the Buddha reached the age of 55, he made Ananda his chief attendant.

Death / Mahaparinirvana

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Parinibbana.jpg/200px-Parinibbana.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Parinibbana.jpg) https://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Parinibbana.jpg)
An artist`s portrayal of Buddha's entry into Parinirvana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parinirvana).


According to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahaparinibbana_Sutta) of the Pali canon, at the age of 80, the Buddha announced that he would soon reach Parinirvana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parinirvana) or the final deathless state abandoning the earthly body. After this, the Buddha ate his last meal, which he had received as an offering from a blacksmith named Cunda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunda_%28Buddhism%29). Falling violently ill, Buddha instructed his attendant Ānanda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ananda) to convince Cunda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunda_%28Buddhism%29) that the meal eaten at his place had nothing to do with his passing and that his meal would be a source of the greatest merit as it provided the last meal for a Buddha.<sup id="cite_ref-16" class="reference">[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuddHa#cite_note-16)</sup> The precise contents of the Buddha's final meal are not clear, due to variant scriptural traditions and ambiguity over the translation of certain significant terms; the Theravada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theravada) tradition generally believes that the Buddha was offered some kind of pork, while the Mahayana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana) tradition believes that the Buddha consumed some sort of truffle or other mushroom.
The Mahayana Vimalakirti Sutra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimalakirti_Sutra) claims, in Chapter 3, that the Buddha doesn't really become ill or old but purposely presents such an appearance only to teach those born into samsara about the impermanence and pain of defiled worlds and to encourage them to strive for Nirvana.

"Reverend Ánanda, the Tathágatas have the body of the Dharma—not a body that is sustained by material food. The Tathágatas have a transcendental body that has transcended all mundane qualities. There is no injury to the body of a Tathágata, as it is rid of all defilements. The body of a Tathágata is uncompounded and free of all formative activity. Reverend Ánanda, to believe there can be illness in such a body is irrational and unseemly!' Nevertheless, since the Buddha has appeared during the time of the five corruptions, he disciplines living beings by acting lowly and humble."[14]

Ananda protested Buddha's decision to enter Parinirvana in the abandoned jungles of Kuśināra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushinagar) (present-day Kushinagar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushinagar), India (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India)) of the Malla (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malla_%28India%29) kingdom. Buddha, however, reminded Ananda how Kushinara was a land once ruled by a righteous wheel-turning king that resounded with joy:

44. Kusavati, Ananda, resounded unceasingly day and night with ten sounds—the trumpeting of elephants, the neighing of horses, the rattling of chariots, the beating of drums and tabours, music and song, cheers, the clapping of hands, and cries of "Eat, drink, and be merry!"

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/EndAscetism.JPG/200px-EndAscetism.JPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EndAscetism.JPG) https://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EndAscetism.JPG)
The sharing of the relics of the Buddha.


Buddha then asked all the attendant Bhikshus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhikshu) to clarify any doubts or questions they had. They had none. He then finally entered Parinirvana. The Buddha's final words were, "All composite things pass away. Strive for your own liberation with diligence." The Buddha's body was cremated and the relics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relic) were placed in monuments or stupas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stupa), some of which are believed to have survived until the present. For example, The Temple of the Tooth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_the_Tooth) or "Dalada Maligawa" in Sri Lanka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lanka) is the place where the relic of the right tooth of Buddha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relic_of_the_tooth_of_the_Buddha) is kept at present.
According to the Pāli historical chronicles of Sri Lanka, the Dīpavaṃsa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipavamsa) and Mahāvaṃsa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavansa), the coronation of Aśoka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka_the_Great) (Pāli: Asoka) is 218 years after the death of Buddha. According to one Mahayana record in Chinese (十八部論 and 部執異論), the coronation of Aśoka is 116 years after the death of Buddha. Therefore, the time of Buddha's passing is either 486 BCE according to Theravāda record or 383 BCE according to Mahayana record. However, the actual date traditionally accepted as the date of the Buddha's death in Theravāda countries is 544 or 543 BCE, because the reign of Aśoka was traditionally reckoned to be about 60 years earlier than current estimates.
At his death, the Buddha told his disciples to follow no leader, but to follow his teachings (dharma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma)). However, at the First Buddhist Council (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Buddhist_Council), Mahakasyapa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahakasyapa) was held by the sangha as their leader, with the two chief disciples Mahamoggallana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahamoggallana) and Sariputta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sariputta) having died before the Buddha.

[MsTerry]

New Testament manuscripts

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/CodeAlexandrinusFol65vExplLuke.jpg/100px-CodeAlexandrinusFol65vExplLuke.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CodeAlexandrinusFol65vExplLuke.jpg) https://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CodeAlexandrinusFol65vExplLuke.jpg)
Folio 65v from Codex Alexandrinus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus) contains the Gospel of Luke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Luke) with decorative tailpiece.


The New Testament (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament) has been preserved in more manuscripts than any other ancient work, having over 5,700 complete or fragmented Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) manuscripts, 10,000 Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) manuscripts and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages including Syriac (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_language), Slavic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages), Gothic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_language), Ethiopic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ge%27ez_language), Coptic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_language) and Armenian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language). The dates of these manuscripts range from the 2nd century up to the invention of the printing press in the 15th century. The vast majority of these manuscripts date after the 10th century.
When one compares one manuscript to another, with the exception of the smallest fragments, no two copies agree completely in their wording throughout the comparable manuscript (keep in mind that if one compares a one page manuscript to a ten page manuscript and there is one misspelling of a place name, then it disqualifies exactitude in wording). There has been an estimate of between 200,000 and 300,000 variations among all the manuscripts (from the 2nd to 15th century) which is more variations than words in the New Testament. Though, this is unreliable because it is a comparison of texts across linguistic boundaries. More realistic estimates focus on comparing texts grouped by language and then making comparisons. When this is done, the numbers are vastly smaller. By the far, the vast majority of these are accidental errors made by scribes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scribe), and easily identified as such: an omitted word (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplography), a duplicate line (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoioteleuton), a misspelling, a rearrangement of words. On occasion, though, some variations involve apparently intentional changes, which can make it more difficult for scholars to determine whether they were corrections from better exemplars (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/exemplar), harmonizations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonization) or ideologically motivated.<sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference">[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript#cite_note-2)</sup> Paleography (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleography) is the study of ancient writing, and textual criticism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_criticism) is the study of manuscripts in order to reconstruct a probable original text.
The difficulty, in all of this, though is in where the manuscripts are coming from. Oftentimes, especially in monasteries, a manuscript cache is little more than a manuscript recycling center where imperfect and incomplete copies of manuscripts were placed while the monastery or scriptorium decided what to do with them. <sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference">[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript#cite_note-3)</sup> There were several options on what to do with these unwanted and mistake laden manuscripts. The first was to simply "wash" the manuscript and reuse it later on for something else; this was very common in the ancient world and even up into the Middle Ages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages) and is known as a palimpsest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palimpsest), the most famous of these being the Archimedes Palimpsest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes_Palimpsest). If this was not done within a short period of time after the papyri was made, then washing it was less likely since the papyri might deteriorate and thus be unusable. If washing it was no longer an option, then the second and third options would be resorted to: the manuscripts could either be burned (since, containing the accepted words of Christ, the Apostles, and Prophets, Saints, etc. they were considered to have had a higher level of sanctity than secular literature <sup id="cite_ref-4" class="reference">[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript#cite_note-4)</sup> and burning them was considered more reverent than simply throwing them into the nearby garbage pit, although that was not unheard of as in the case of Oxyrhynchus 840 (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Oxyrhynchus_840&action=edit&redlink=1)). The third and final option was simply to leave them be what is known as a manuscript gravesite allowing time to deal with them. When scholars stumble upon manuscript caches (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Manuscript_caches&action=edit&redlink=1), especially those found at Saint Catherine's Monastery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Catherine%27s_Monastery) in the Sinai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinai) (source of the Codex Sinaiticus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus)), Saint Sabbas Monastery (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saint_Sabbas_Monastery&action=edit&redlink=1) outside Bethlehem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethlehem), and various other monasteries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monasteries), they are not stumbling upon libraries, but of storehouses of rejected texts <sup id="cite_ref-5" class="reference">[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript#cite_note-5)</sup> (sometimes, strangely enough, kept in boxes or very back shelves in the libraries due to space constraints) which are unacceptable because of their scribal errors and contain corrections inside the lines <sup id="cite_ref-6" class="reference">[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript#cite_note-6)</sup> demonstrating that the scribes at the monastery were comparing it to what had to have been a master text. In addition, texts which were judged complete and correct and had deteriorated due to heavy usage and/or had missing folios (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folios) for the same reason, etc. would also be placed in these caches (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Caches&action=edit&redlink=1). Once in a cache, insects (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insects) and dampness due to nearby rivers, floods, and changes in weather patterns would oftentimes continued to deteriorate what was left. <sup id="cite_ref-7" class="reference">[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript#cite_note-7)</sup>
Complete and correctly copied texts would usually immediately be placed into use and thus usually wear out fairly quickly which would lead to their needing to be repeatedly copied. Further, because the copying of manuscripts was highly costly at the time, a manuscript (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuscript) would only be made when one was commissioned in which case the size of the parchment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchment), script (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Script) used, any illustrations (thus raising the price), whether it was one book or a collection of several, etc. would be determined by the one commissioning the work. The idea of stocking extra copies would probably have been considered at best wasteful and unnecessary since the form and a manuscript (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuscript) was more often than not customized to the aesthetic tastes of the buyer. This is the reason why scholars are more likely to stumble upon incomplete and at times conflicting segments of manuscripts rather than complete and largely consistent works. <sup id="cite_ref-8" class="reference">[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript#cite_note-8)</sup>
Distribution of Greek manuscripts by century <sup id="cite_ref-9" class="reference">[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript#cite_note-9)</sup>
<table class="wikitable"> <tbody><tr> <td>
</td> <td colspan="3">New Testament Manuscripts</td> <td colspan="2" align="center">Lectionaries</td> </tr> <tr> <td rowspan="">Century</td> <td>Papyri</td> <td>Uncials</td> <td>Minuscules</td> <td>Uncials</td> <td>Minuscules</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2nd</td> <td>2</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> </tr> <tr> <td>c. 200</td> <td>4</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2nd/3rd</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> </tr> <tr> <td>3rd</td> <td>28</td> <td>2</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> </tr> <tr> <td>3rd/4th</td> <td>8</td> <td>2</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> </tr> <tr> <td>4th</td> <td>14</td> <td>14</td> <td>-</td> <td>1</td> <td>-</td> </tr> <tr> <td>4th/5th</td> <td>8</td> <td>8</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> </tr> <tr> <td>5th</td> <td>2</td> <td>36</td> <td>-</td> <td>1</td> <td>-</td> </tr> <tr> <td>5th/6th</td> <td>4</td> <td>10</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> </tr> <tr> <td>6th</td> <td>7</td> <td>51</td> <td>-</td> <td>3</td> <td>-</td> </tr> <tr> <td>6th/7th</td> <td>5</td> <td>5</td> <td>-</td> <td>1</td> <td>-</td> </tr> <tr> <td>7th</td> <td>8</td> <td>28</td> <td>-</td> <td>4</td> <td>-</td> </tr> <tr> <td>7th/8th</td> <td>3</td> <td>4</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> </tr> <tr> <td>8th</td> <td>2</td> <td>29</td> <td>-</td> <td>22</td> <td>-</td> </tr> <tr> <td>8th/9th</td> <td>-</td> <td>4</td> <td>-</td> <td>5</td> <td>-</td> </tr> <tr> <td>9th</td> <td>-</td> <td>53</td> <td>13</td> <td>113</td> <td>5</td> </tr> <tr> <td>9th/10th</td> <td>-</td> <td>1</td> <td>4</td> <td>-</td> <td>1</td> </tr> <tr> <td>10th</td> <td>-</td> <td>17</td> <td>124</td> <td>108</td> <td>38</td> </tr> <tr> <td>10th/11th</td> <td>-</td> <td>3</td> <td>8</td> <td>3</td> <td>4</td> </tr> <tr> <td>11th</td> <td>-</td> <td>1</td> <td>429</td> <td>15</td> <td>227</td> </tr> <tr> <td>11th/12th</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>33</td> <td>-</td> <td>13</td> </tr> <tr> <td>12th</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>555</td> <td>6</td> <td>486</td> </tr> <tr> <td>12th/13th</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>26</td> <td>-</td> <td>17</td> </tr> <tr> <td>13th</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>547</td> <td>4</td> <td>394</td> </tr> <tr> <td>13th/14th</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>28</td> <td>-</td> <td>17</td> </tr> <tr> <td>14th</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>511</td> <td>-</td> <td>308</td> </tr> <tr> <td>14th/15th</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>8</td> <td>-</td> <td>2</td> </tr> <tr> <td>15th</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>241</td> <td>-</td> <td>171</td> </tr> <tr> <td>15th/16th</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>4</td> <td>-</td> <td>2</td> </tr> <tr> <td>16th</td> <td>-</td> <td>-</td> <td>136</td> <td>-</td> <td>194</td></tr></tbody></table>Historic editions

See also: Biblical manuscript (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript), Bible translations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations), and Textual criticism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_criticism)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e4/Devil_codex_Gigas.jpg/180px-Devil_codex_Gigas.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Devil_codex_Gigas.jpg) https://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Devil_codex_Gigas.jpg)
The Codex Gigas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Gigas) from the 13th century, held at the Royal Library (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Royal_Library) in Sweden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden).


When ancient scribes copied earlier books, they wrote notes on the margins of the page (marginal glosses) to correct their text—especially if a scribe accidentally omitted a word or line—and to comment about the text. When later scribes were copying the copy, they were sometimes uncertain if a note was intended to be included as part of the text. See textual criticism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_criticism). Over time, different regions evolved different versions, each with its own assemblage of omissions and additions.
The autographs, the Greek manuscripts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript) written by the original authors, have not survived. Scholars surmise the original Greek text from the versions that do survive. The three main textual traditions of the Greek New Testament are sometimes called the Alexandrian text-type (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandrian_text-type) (generally minimalist), the Byzantine text-type (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_text-type) (generally maximalist), and the Western text-type (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_text-type) (occasionally wild). Together they comprise most of the ancient manuscripts.
There are also several ancient translations, most important of which are in the Syriac (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_language) dialect of Aramaic (including the Peshitta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peshitta) and the Diatessaron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatessaron) gospel harmony), in the Ethiopian language of Ge'ez (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ge%27ez_language), and in Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) (both the Vetus Latina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vetus_Latina) and the Vulgate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate)).
In 331, the Emperor Constantine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I_and_Christianity) commissioned Eusebius (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusebius) to deliver fifty Bibles for the Church of Constantinople. Athanasius (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius) (Apol. Const. 4) recorded Alexandrian scribes around 340 preparing Bibles for Constans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constans). Little else is known, though there is plenty of speculation. For example, it is speculated that this may have provided motivation for canon lists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon), and that Codex Vaticanus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus), Codex Sinaiticus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus) and Codex Alexandrinus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Alexandrinus) are examples of these Bibles. Together with the Peshitta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peshitta), these are the earliest extant Christian Bibles.<sup id="cite_ref-14" class="reference">[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible#cite_note-14)</sup>
The earliest surviving complete manuscript of the entire Bible is the Codex Amiatinus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus), a Latin Vulgate edition produced in eighth century England at the double monastery of Wearmouth-Jarrow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkwearmouth-Jarrow_Abbey).
The earliest printed edition of the Greek New Testament appeared in 1516 from the Froben (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Froben) press, by Desiderius Erasmus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus), who reconstructed its Greek text from several recent manuscripts of the Byzantine text-type. He occasionally added a Greek translation of the Latin Vulgate for parts that did not exist in the Greek manuscripts. He produced four later editions of this text. Erasmus was Roman Catholic, but his preference for the Byzantine Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Greek) manuscripts rather than the Latin Vulgate led some church authorities to view him with suspicion.
The first printed edition with critical apparatus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_apparatus) (noting variant readings among the manuscripts) was produced by the printer Robert Estienne (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Estienne) of Paris in 1550. The Greek text of this edition and of those of Erasmus became known as the Textus Receptus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textus_Receptus) (Latin for "received text"), a name given to it in the Elzevier (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Elzevir) edition of 1633, which termed it as the text nunc ab omnibus receptum ("now received by all").
The churches of the Protestant Reformation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation) translated the Greek of the Textus Receptus to produce vernacular (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernacular) Bibles, such as the German Luther Bible (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Bible) and the English King James Bible (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version_of_the_Bible).
The discovery of older manuscripts, which belong to the Alexandrian text-type, including the 4th century Codex Vaticanus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus) and Codex Sinaiticus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus), led scholars to revise their view about the original Greek text. Attempts to reconstruct the original text are called critical editions. Karl Lachmann (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Lachmann) based his critical edition of 1831 on manuscripts dating from the 4th century and earlier, to demonstrate that the Textus Receptus must be corrected according to these earlier texts.
Later critical editions incorporate ongoing scholarly research, including discoveries of Greek papyrus fragments from near Alexandria, Egypt, that date in some cases within a few decades of the original New Testament writings.<sup id="cite_ref-15" class="reference">[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible#cite_note-15)</sup> Today, most critical editions of the Greek New Testament, such as UBS4 (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=UBS4&action=edit&redlink=1) and NA27 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NA27), consider the Alexandrian text-type corrected by papyri, to be the Greek text that is closest to the original autographs. Their apparatus includes the result of votes among scholars, ranging from certain {A} to doubtful {E}, on which variants best preserve the original Greek text of the New Testament.
Most variants among the manuscripts are minor, such as alternate spelling, alternate word order, the presence or absence of an optional definite article ("the"), and so on. Occasionally, a major variant happens when a portion of a text was accidentally omitted (or perhaps even censored), or was added from a marginal gloss. Fortunately, major variants tend to be easier to correct. Examples of major variants are the endings of Mark (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_16), the Pericope Adulteræ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pericope_Adulter%C3%A6), the Comma Johanneum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum), and the Western version of Acts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_the_Apostles#Manuscripts).
Critical editions that rely primarily on the Alexandrian text-type inform nearly all modern translations (and revisions of older translations).
However for reasons of tradition, especially the doctrine of the inerrancy of the King James Bible (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King-James-Only_Movement), some modern scholars prefer to use the Textus Receptus for the Greek text, or use the Majority Text (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority_Text) which is similar to it but is a critical edition that relies on earlier manuscripts of the Byzantine text-type. Among these scholars, some argue that the Byzantine tradition contains scribal additions, but these later interpolations preserve the orthodox interpretations of the biblical text—as part of the ongoing Christian experience—and in this sense are authoritative.





As far as when the 27 books of the new testament were written and by who, this is my understanding. These are approximate dates when they were written, in order, and the author.

James - 45 - 48 AD by James, believed to be the half brother Of Jesus.
The Gospel of Mathew - 50 AD by the Apostle Matthew.
Thessalonians 1 & 2 - 50 - 54 AD by The Apostle Paul These were actually letters to the Thessalonians from Paul.
Corinthians 1 - 54 - 55 AD by the Apostle Paul. This is actually the second letter Paul wrote to the Corinthians. The first one was lost.
Corinthians 2 - 56 - 57 AD by the Apostle Paul. This is actually the fourth letter Paul wrote to the Corinthians. The third one was also lost.
Romans - 57 - 58 AD by the Apostle Paul. Physically written by Tertias, dictated by Paul.
The Gospel of Mark - 57 - 59 AD by Mark an associate of the Apostle Peter.
The Gospel of Luke - 58 - 60 AD by Doctor Luke, a traveling companion of the Apostle Paul.
Ephesians - 60 AD by the Apostle Paul.
Colossians - 60 - 61 AD by the Apostle Paul and Timothy.
Philippians - 61 - 62 AD by the Apostle Paul and Timothy.
Philemon - 62 AD by the Apostle Paul and Timothy.
Acts - 60 - 62 AD by Doctor Luke.
1, 2, and 3 John - 60 - 65 AD by the Apostle John.
1 Timothy and Titus - 63 - 66 AD by the Apostle Paul.
1 Peter - 64 AD by the Apostle Peter.
2 Peter - 64 - 68 AD by the Apostle Peter.
2 Timothy - 67 AD by the Apostle Paul. His last letter.
Hebrews - 68 - 69 AD Author unknown. Many believe it was Barnabas, another of Apostle Paul's traveling companions.
Jude - 67 - 80 AD by Jude, also believed to be a half brother of Jesus.
The Gospel of John - 85 - 95 AD by the Apostle John.
Revelations - 95 - 96 AD by the Apostle John the only Apostle to die a natural death. The rest were all martyred.

<dir><dir>Andrew: Crucified.
Bartholomew: Crucified.
James, son of Alphaeus: Crucified.
James, son of Zebedee: Death by the sword.
Matthew: Death by the sword.
Peter: Crucified upside-down at his own request (he did not feel worthy to be crucified in the same manner as the Lord).
Philip: Crucified.
Simon the Zealot: Crucified.
Thaddaeus: Death by arrows.
Thomas: Death by a spear thrust.

</dir></dir>As you can see most of the New Testament was in fact written by the Apostles, and all of it was written Within the first hundred years AD.

[mykil]

Mornings are alwayz a time to develop a thought pattern towards an eternity! I find the Christian path of enlightenment you are on totally boring. This is beneath me, maybe not everyone, but certainly me! Preaching the word of god is your only goal when you take the oath err allow Jesus in your heart. Why stop there? Why not try to evolve and find a way to make this world a better place. Why not include all religions and really have a go of it. Why segregation toward others? In my own eyes being a Christian is almost as wild and absurd ad saying you are a Jehovah whiteness!!! I have been a Christian for many years and I have seen the animosity toward other religions, “they are not right! There is only one god, one way to do things and it is our way, those other folks will not go to heaven only us good Christian's”! Scare tactics from hell if you as me! Who believes this shit anywayz, besides a gullible child??? IF you where all truly enlightened and as holy as you say, instead of preaching the word of god you might change this to the word of our oceans, our air or our planet instead of worshiping the almighty load Jesus, you might actually save our planet and our selves by doing it this way. You have a billion followers to mold, a billion people wasting time praising a fictional god when you can truly praise a real god, our world! IT is this religion alone that is destroying our planet, it is this religion alone that is narcissistic in that you only care about one thought pattern and screw the rest, if you cant convert you aint with us and we don't give a rats ass about you! Now if you where a real religion you would be provoking others to save our planet, god helps those who help themselves right!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
When talking about Jesus the conversation alwayz turns to the book and quotes from the bible get into a heated arguments and everyone forgets the true meaning of our world and even what everyone is fighting about, as long as you are winning the fight and throwing those passages and praises toward one another right? Get into the 21<SUP>st</SUP> century folks! I can’t even stomach reading most of the posts once the bible is brought into the picture, you lost me, if you want to communicate with people you might want to use your own brain or are you afraid to actually use it? That is what it is on your shoulders for, think of you own thoughts and write those down so we don’t have to go over the same old boring quotes that everyone has been using for millenniums well you, err can you? I truly don’t think you would have a leg to stand on if you didn’t have such passages stuck in your head, you truly need to use your mind and then you might actually evolve and find there is another world sitting right next to you, maybe a parallel universe to speak. Maybe something you might be missing? Maybe a better world after all! One that is not so conceded or shallow or all mighty toward one goal, that is to get you one your knees and pray for an egotistical god that you say even exists! Be warned my god can beat up your god and he is on his way!!! You might want to start worshiping me now…

[dw41552]

I forgot to show you this,
Conception and birth...


Let's see, no where does it say in this Wikepedia article that Buddha was sinless, (Perfect), that he performed even one miracle, and he's still dead and hasn't risen, so please, explain to me how Buddha comes even close to comparing to Jesus. Oh! And the most important fact of all is, Buddha didn't give his life for us all. He died from eating rotten food. You know what, when you're in line waiting to account for your life before Jesus, and you will face Him, make sure you look around because Buddha may be standing right behind you. :wink:

God Bless

[dw41552]

New Testament manuscripts...

This entire article and this list are talking about copies, not the originals. Even secular scholars agree that at least some of the books were indeed written by the Apostles, which means they would have to have been written during the first century AD. This totally refutes your statement below.

Your ststement: Let me remind you that the New Testament was not written by Jesus' apostles, but in fact a few hundred years later and was the result of an oral transmission (and subsequent alteration)

God Bless

[MsTerry]

This is what I wrote

The dates of these manuscripts range from the 2nd century up to the invention of the printing press in the 15th century.
Nothing about copies.
I like to see that link that proves a direct one to the anointed one.


This entire article and this list are talking about copies, not the originals. Even secular scholars agree that at least some of the books were indeed written by the Apostles, which means they would have to have been written during the first century AD. This totally refutes your statement below.

Your ststement: Let me remind you that the New Testament was not written by Jesus' apostles, but in fact a few hundred years later and was the result of an oral transmission (and subsequent alteration)

God Bless

[MsTerry]

Let's see, no where does it say in this Wikepedia article that Buddha was sinless, (Perfect), that he performed even one miracle, and he's still dead and hasn't risen, so please, explain to me how Buddha comes even close to comparing to Jesus. Oh! And the most important fact of all is, Buddha didn't give his life for us all. He died from eating rotten food. You know what, when you're in line waiting to account for your life before Jesus, and you will face Him, make sure you look around because Buddha may be standing right behind you.
You're getting judgmental again.
Buddha' life has been recorded from birth to death.
He gave up a life of wealth and privilege for poverty
Show me what sins he committed.
Jesus' life has BIG gaps, no one knows what sins he commited during that time.
Buddha decided to forgo Nirvana and instead traveled the country to share his teachings of life's suffering because of our attachments.
And you are right, just like Jesus, he CHOOSE his time of death.
Here you can read about his miracles
Miracles of Gautama Buddha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracles_of_Gautama_Buddha)

[dw41552]

This is what I wrote

Nothing about copies.
I like to see that link that proves a direct one to the anointed one.

MsTerry this article Which you got from Wikepedia is about the New Testament manuscripts, copies, and translations made from 200AD and on. It's not about when the original books were actually written or who the authors were. So it in no way proves your statement: Let me remind you that the New Testament was not written by Jesus' apostles, but in fact a few hundred years later and was the result of an oral transmission (and subsequent alteration)

Do you really believe that out of the 13 Apostles and the many others who followed Jesus during the three years of His ministry, that not one of them would wright about their experiences, what they heard, and what they saw.

Here's what Wickepedia says about when the New testament was written and by who, which you conveneintly left out.
Click on the blue: New Testament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament)

And here's an article that backs my side. We can go back and forth like this for ever. Click on the blue: Wasn't the New Testament written hundreds of years after Christ? | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry (https://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/wasnt-new-testament-written-hundreds-years-after-christ).

God bless

[MsTerry]

Do you really believe that out of the 13 Apostles and the many others who followed Jesus during the three years of His ministry, that not one of them would wright about their experiences, what they heard, and what they saw.

there is no reference in the bible, whatsoever, that any of these poor working class apostles was literate.




Here's what Wickepedia says about when the New testament was written and by who, which you conveneintly left out.
Click on the blue: New Testament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament)
NO, Butch, it doesn't say who WROTE it, it says "traditionally ascribed to "
HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!
READ ON





Each of the Gospels narrates the ministry of Jesus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus) of Nazareth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth). The traditional author is listed after each entry. Modern scholarship differs on precisely by whom, when, or in what original form the various gospels were written.

[dw41552]

MsTerry I didn't know you were Buddhist.


You're getting judgmental again.

I'm not judging him personally. I'm judging what he teaches. That I have a right to do.

Buddha' life has been recorded from birth to death.

Yes, and so is mine, what does that prove?

He gave up a life of wealth and privilege for poverty

Wealth never even entered Jesus mind, and He lived in poverty.

Show me what sins he committed.

He put more importance on his teachings than that of God's'. He lived according to his own will instead of God's. He led many people away from God.

Jesus' life has BIG gaps, no one knows what sins he commited during that time.

He is God and God being perfect means that Jesus had to be perfect, meaning it was impossible for Him to sin.

Buddha decided to forgo Nirvana and instead traveled the country to share his teachings of life's suffering because of our attachments.

Jesus not only traveled to teach a better way through Him but healed all the sick who believed in Him, rose people from the dead, fed thousands with just a few fish and loaves of bread twice, not to mention all the other miracles He performed. Then He gave His life for you, me, and Buddha. Buddha was asked by a woman to raise her child from death but only tried to convince her to except her childs death because he couldn't do it.

And you are right, just like Jesus, he CHOOSE his time of death.

Not so. Buddah was accidently poisened by some poisen mushrooms given to him by Cunda, a close friend of his. He did not choose to die this way or at the time he did. this is common Knowledge.


Here you can read about his miracles
Miracles of Gautama Buddha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracles_of_Gautama_Buddha)

I did, and these are a joke. I bet David Copperfield, or Chris Angel could perform any one of these tricks. I didn't see any healings, or rasing anyone from the dead, or feeding thousands from practically nothing. These tricks were probably to try and convince whoever supposedly saw them of his superiority. And the first supposed miracle says how he feels about himself.


It is said that immediately after the birth of Siddhartha Gautama, who later became known as The Buddha, he stood up, took seven steps north, and fearlessly uttered:
"Supreme am I in the world
Greatest am I in the world.
Noblest am I in the world.
This is my last birth,
Never shall I be reborn"

Sounds like he's pretty stuck on himself.


I got this rediculous piece of info from a Buddhist web site.

It is said that having sacred mantras on your computer works the same as a traditional prayer wheel. As the computer's hard disk spins thousands of times per hour, it sends out this peaceful prayer of Compassion to all directions and to all beings, purifying the area. As this prayer wheel spins, we pray compassionately for the liberation of all beings.

Have you put your mantras on your computer yet?

God bless

[MsTerry]

He is God and God being perfect means that Jesus had to be perfect, meaning it was impossible for Him to sin.


Butch, this pre-emptive statement is so utterly ridiculous, I don't know where to begin.
If Jesus is God, who was taking care of heaven while he is walking on earth?
Jesus was a mere mortal with all human emotions and pitfalls.



Wealth never even entered Jesus mind, and He lived in poverty.I find it interesting that YOU know what entered Jesus' mind 2000 years ago.
Buddha was born into wealth, he did not seek it, he renounced it when he came into maturity.

I bet David Copperfield, or Chris Angel could perform any one of these tricks. I didn't see any healings, or rasing anyone from the dead, or feeding thousands from practically nothing. These tricks were probably to try and convince whoever supposedly saw them of his superiority. And the first supposed miracle says how he feels about himself.I bet Chris and David could perform any of Jesus' tricks.
In fact Jesus was a copycat, Buddha walked on the water 400 years before him!



He put more importance on his teachings than that of God's'. He lived according to his own will instead of God's. He led many people away from God. There was no NT or OT where he lived, 400 years BC.
He taught compassion and awareness, I guess you are trying to tell me these aren't chistian values.

[dw41552]

Butch, this pre-emptive statement is so utterly ridiculous, I don't know where to begin.
If Jesus is God, who was taking care of heaven while he is walking on earth?
Jesus was a mere mortal with all human emotions and pitfalls.

I find it interesting that YOU know what entered Jesus' mind 2000 years ago.
Buddha was born into wealth, he did not seek it, he renounced it when he came into maturity.
I bet Chris and David could perform any of Jesus' tricks.
In fact Jesus was a copycat, Buddha walked on the water 400 years before him!

There was no NT or OT where he lived, 400 years BC.
He taught compassion and awareness, I guess you are trying to tell me these aren't chistian values.


Look MsTerry if you want to worship Buddha that is your perogative. If you know for a fact that following Buddha will lead you to a better life and after life, I wish you all the luck in the world. I for one Choose God and His way. Obviously I'm never going to change your mind and you certainly won't change my mind, so I think we need to leave this right here. Regardless I still love ya! Big Smile

God bless

[MsTerry]

MsTerry I didn't know you were Buddhist.

Butch, I don't think you knew Jesus studied and practiced Buddhist teachings. The reason I keep on mentioning the Lost Years of Jesus is the following'



Elmer R. Gruber, a psychologist, and Holger Kersten, a specialist in religious history claim that Buddhism had a substantial influence on the life and teachings of Jesus.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-0">[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus#cite_note-0)</sup> Gruber and Kersten claim that Jesus was influenced by the teachings and practices of Therapeutae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutae), teachers of the Buddhist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist) Theravada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theravada) school then living in the Bible lands. They assert that Jesus lived the life of a Buddhist and taught Buddhist ideals to his disciples; their work follows in the footsteps of the Oxford New Testament scholar' Barnett Hillman Streeter, who established as early as the 1930s that the moral teaching of the Buddha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha) has four remarkable resemblances to the Sermon on the Mount.
As I said before, he imitated Buddha walking on the water.

[Dynamique]

This is no more ridiculous (note correct spelling of the word) than any other religious drivel and dogma.

Now would both of you pluh-eeese turn off your computers and go watch Maher's Religulous. Thank you!




I got this rediculous piece of info from a Buddhist web site.

It is said that having sacred mantras on your computer works the same as a traditional prayer wheel. As the computer's hard disk spins thousands of times per hour, it sends out this peaceful prayer of Compassion to all directions and to all beings, purifying the area. As this prayer wheel spins, we pray compassionately for the liberation of all beings.

Have you put your mantras on your computer yet?

God bless

[dw41552]

Butch, I don't think you knew Jesus studied and practiced Buddhist teachings. The reason I keep on mentioning the Lost Years of Jesus is the following'



As I said before, he imitated Buddha walking on the water.

Believe what you want to believe. I know better!!!

God bless

[dw41552]

This is no more ridiculous (note correct spelling of the word) than any other religious drivel and dogma.

Now would both of you pluh-eeese turn off your computers and go watch Maher's Religulous. Thank you!

Wow! I bow to your superior spelling skills mam. Now did that make you feel better about yourself? I hope so!

[Zeno Swijtink]

Tuning in, and then again out, of this tread, I now wonder how Christians experience their "sex." Why do they bother?

Christian women, why not opt for artificial insemination by semen from your own husband?

[MsTerry]

Believe what you want to believe. I know better!!!


Nonononononono Butch.
You base your thinking on faith not on research, so you don't know things better, you believe in things.
Here is some research for you, about how Jesus got his insights and knowledge.
The Lost Years of Jesus: The Life of Saint Issa - Notovitch (https://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm)
Lost years of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus)
The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ (https://www.rickrichards.com/jc/Jesus1.html)
The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ (https://www.rickrichards.com/jc/Jesus1.html)

let me know if you need more facts

[Dynamique]

No, but it made me feel better about the value of a spell-checker and a dictionary!


Wow! I bow to your superior spelling skills mam. Now did that make you feel better about yourself? I hope so!

[stiltbat]

Many recent studies indicate that Christian divorce rates are even or sometimes "much" higher than divorce rates of other faith-based groups. If staying married is one's ideal then one may want to consider other religious options. Also, it seems, that when divorced, a large percentage of Christians feel a sense of rejection by their community. I believe sex should be based on the individual's and/or the couple's or group's needs and desires not a set dogma. Stiltbat


[This thread was split off from https://www.waccobb.net/forums/conscious-relationship/51171-sex-sake-sex.html#post86482 (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/conscious-relationship/51171-sex-sake-sex.html#post86482%5D) ]

I'd love to give a response from a Christian view point. But first I must say, these are my beliefs like them or not. You have the choice to except or reject them that's up to each individual. Either way I just want everyone to know I do not feel superior to anyone. We are all equals. I'm just sharing what I believe with all my heart God has taught me.

I do not believe in fornication. In my opinion sleeping together just for the sake of sex, is just sex. I also believe God intended sex for two purposes, procreation and a reward for two people, a man and a woman who take the time to really get to know each other and fall truely in love without the distraction of sex, and then marry making a life time commitment to each other.

Oh, I can just hear it now. How ya gonna know if it's any good unless you take it for a test drive. I get this one all the time. We're not talking about a car here for crying out loud.

Let me explain it this way. I'm sure most all of you like cake right? My favorite is orange cake with orange icing. A man and a woman meet. They make a good first impression so they start dating. They've decided to refrain from sex as they are both Christians. In 18 months they have gotten to know each other inside and out and enjoy each other to the point of truely falling in love. They have baked the cake. The cake being the foundation for the next step, marriage. Now that they are married it's time to ice the cake. I don't like the word sex at this point, I like to think of it as, "making love" the icing on the cake. Now you can have the icing without the cake and it tastes pretty good, but it's just not the same as having a moist warm orange cake smothered with orange icing.

I truely believe if couples would instead of connecting at the hips first, connect first with their hearts and minds, the divorce rate wouldn't be near as high as it is. And don't forget, look what happens when people use sex for other than what God intended it for. Abortions, STDs, babies having babies, single moms, children being born to extreme poverty and dying from starvation, and the list goes on, none of which would happen if used God's way.

I have a question for every one. What percentage of marriages where sex was no longer a possibility would survive?

God bless

[dw41552]

Nonononononono Butch.
You base your thinking on faith not on research, so you don't know things better, you believe in things.
Here is some research for you, about how Jesus got his insights and knowledge.
The Lost Years of Jesus: The Life of Saint Issa - Notovitch (https://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm)
Lost years of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus)
The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ (https://www.rickrichards.com/jc/Jesus1.html)
The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ (https://www.rickrichards.com/jc/Jesus1.html)

let me know if you need more facts

Yesyesyesyesyesyesyes MsTerry!!! I may rely on my faith now that I know the truth, but before I came to that faith I did indeed do a ton of research. So you are wrong again. When I finally stepped out in faith it all came together and because of the many goose bump moments I have because of the things God does in my life and many others I know my faith keeps on getting even stronger. So I'm not going to waste my time reading the stuff you sent me or plan on sending me in the future because I do know better!!!!! So don't waste your time either.

God bless

[MsTerry]

Butch I am surprised that someone who is so devoted to Jesus isn't interested in finding out every thing that is available about him.
Has it occurred to you yet that God might have send me on your path so you can find out the truth about Jesus?
Don't cover your ears and close your eyes when the truth is in front of you.
Unless you think I am the devil.


Yesyesyesyesyesyesyes MsTerry!!! I may rely on my faith now that I know the truth, but before I came to that faith I did indeed do a ton of research. So you are wrong again. When I finally stepped out in faith it all came together and because of the many goose bump moments I have because of the things God does in my life and many others I know my faith keeps on getting even stronger. So I'm not going to waste my time reading the stuff you sent me or plan on sending me in the future because I do know better!!!!! So don't waste your time either.

[dw41552]

No, but it made me feel better about the value of a spell-checker and a dictionary!

Incidentally, the short American form of the French word "madame" that you are attempting to use here is spelled "ma'am". What you used is the phoneme for a breast or teat, as in "mammary".

Geesh! Is your life that boring where you have to follow me around to correct my spelling. I'm sure you've never miss spelled a word yourself, right? You ever heard of being in a hurry. And I really don't care if what I write is imperfect, everyone else here knows what I'm saying.

God bless

[dw41552]

Butch I am surprised that someone who is so devoted to Jesus isn't interested in finding out every thing that is available about him.
Has it occurred to you yet that God might have send me on your path so you can find out the truth about Jesus?

Nope!

Don't cover your ears and close your eyes when the truth is in front of you.
Unless you think I am the devil.

I believe he's speaking through you.

God bless

[mykil]

I was just reading an article in the San Francisco Chronicle and this phrase really caught my eye, I immediately thought of you guyz!
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
"We were less than 30 miles from the end of the voyage," he said by phone from Taipei. "But I still feel lucky that everyone survived. It was a miracle. God or Buddha kept us alive."<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I truly love that he included two gods and wasn’t afraid to share his thoughts on his survival based ofn his belief that there might be more than one almighty!<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

[MsTerry]

Unless you think I am the devil.
I believe he's speaking through you.

Well, and I think you are possessed and obsessed with demons.
If I understand your logic, than everybody who died before Jesus, will go to hell because they didn't (and couldn't) follow him.
Everybody who didn't hear about him since then, is going to hell too.
Everybody who knows about him and doesn't follow him, goes to hell too.
Everybody who follows him but sins secretly (about 99.99%) still goes to hell.
So Butch tell me, how many people do you think will end up in heaven? a rough estimate, is it 5, 55, 500 or 5000?
You already mentioned that people like Buddha and Gandhi will go to hell, can you name some more people that eveybody is familiar with that will end up in hell?
Is there such place as purgatory?
Purgatory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory)

[Dynamique]

Nope, I've got lots of stuff to do... this is just too good to pass up. Of course I've made a spelling goof, but I take a moment to fix it!

This thread (including the spelling and word mis-use bit) is confirming my suspicions about the intelligence and educational level of people who need JEEEESUUUUSSS to tell them what to think and how to run their lives. It seems to be some sort of psychological flotation device.

god-free karmic blessings!



Geesh! Is your life that boring where you have to follow me around to correct my spelling. I'm sure you've never miss spelled a word yourself, right? You ever heard of being in a hurry. And I really don't care if what I write is imperfect, everyone else here knows what I'm saying.

God bless

[Sara S]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? -Epicurus, philosopher (c. 341-270 BCE)



Yesyesyesyesyesyesyes MsTerry!!! I may rely on my faith now that I know the truth, but before I came to that faith I did indeed do a ton of research. So you are wrong again. When I finally stepped out in faith it all came together and because of the many goose bump moments I have because of the things God does in my life and many others I know my faith keeps on getting even stronger. So I'm not going to waste my time reading the stuff you sent me or plan on sending me in the future because I do know better!!!!! So don't waste your time either.

God bless

[dw41552]

Nope, I've got lots of stuff to do... this is just too good to pass up. Of course I've made a spelling goof, but I take a moment to fix it!

This thread (including the spelling and word mis-use bit) is confirming my suspicions about the intelligence and educational level of people who need JEEEESUUUUSSS to tell them what to think and how to run their lives. It seems to be some sort of psychological flotation device.

god-free karmic blessings!

Well unfortunately my life isn't perfect like yours so I need all the help I can get, and I'm not to proud to ask for it. Some day you may learn that one can't survive on intelligence alone.

God Bless

[MsTerry]

Butch, I am still curious as to how many people you think will end up in heaven?
Wasn't it Jesus himself who dared anyone without sins to pick up the first stone?


Well unfortunately my life isn't perfect like yours so I need all the help I can get, and I'm not to proud to ask for it. Some day you may learn that one can't survive on intelligence alone.

God Bless

[dw41552]

Just because I speak my mind does not mean I have no respect! When I read your post I can assume the same from you if I choose, I just know better, I know you feel this way in your heart, I just refuse to agree with your sediments towards life. Respect to the fullest intent allowed by your god and mine is a given if you don’t see this in my writing you are just not trying very hard!!
AS far as you life choice, yes I would be curious to see what exactly makes you tick, without reference to the bible in every line you write so as a simple minded individual as myself can take heart and truly get the jest of what is on your mind and what might make you tick. AS for what you just wrote, I cannot decipher what the hell is going on in your mind. You are not marries to a woman you love? You where marries twice, yet you divorced, so in your own words does this not mean you never loved you first or second wife. If I am following along with you own words this is what it is saying, yes I have been paying attention!
The marriage between two men is important for character reference towards your true mentality, so yes I will hold it against you, just not in the way you see fit in your mind to describe what I have the intent to do with the information. It shall totally give reference to your own true self and how I shall respond to every question I ever answer, also every aspect of any debate that may arouse on this site. For this is what we are doing is it not? A good debate has to be an open book as long as all parties are learning and fully understanding this in itself is the principle we are here for in the first place. Sometimes name calling gets involved and people get a little out of line, but still this is what it is all about! So I may not agree with anything you ever say, but yes I am hoping there is mutual respect throughout our little references community debates and in the hopes we shall never burn a bridge over a little miss communication, meaning someday soon we may actually meet in person at a social event of some sort and shake hands and maybe even hug! Maybe someday even the whole world may decide to respect one another as well.
There on occasion area few people that chime in that I would love to spar with and learn as well. I love to see people get right in and really take a bite out of what is going on, it really is too awful bad most disappear. There truly is room for all opinions and egos here, like I said this is what makes a great debate!

OK! I believe in marriage between one man and one woman. I do not believe in gay marriage. It is outside of God's will.

And no I did not love my first or second wife. I married my first wife after knowing her one week because she was hot. I was in lust with her. My second wife I knew two weeks when I moved in with her because I was desperate. I was married to my first for 13 years so when I met my second she was also hot and I was very lonely. I was an idiot for most of my life because I used my abusive childhood as a crutch until Jesus came into my life and set me free from all that. I'm not proud of my past but God has forgiven me for every wrong I did and I forgave myself. Now I try my best to serve Him any way I can. He saved me even though I don't deserve it.

God Bless

[Braggi]

... Sorry God is at the head of my life. I try my best to live according to His will, there for I cannot leave Him out of the aswers to the questions I'm asked. I'm not here to to just talk about sex. One of my purposes is to educate people about the many dangers of sex out of God's will especially young people. And besides there wasn't much of a discussion till I brought my Christian view

So, you have no thoughts or opinions of your own? Where is the personal responsibility in that? What "God" are you talking about? Who's God? Whose God? Which God? How do you know the mind of that which you call God? Is it from that grouping of writings and letters assembled by the Catholic Church designed for their own aggrandizement, enrichment and for the control of others? Do you not see that? Do you not question that?

I don't mean to offend you, dw41552, but don't you have a thought or opinion of your own? Do you ever make a decision based on what you feel inside, apart from your exocontroller?

Do you believe it's possible to have self control, or does every decision have to be controlled by powers outside yourself?

What are these "many dangers of sex?"

I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

OK! I believe in marriage between one man and one woman. I do not believe in gay marriage. It is outside of God's will. ...

If you believe something is "outside of God's will," and you respect this will of God, then I suppose you should act accordingly. However, there are a lot of people who don't agree with you and don't see "God's will" the same way you do.

I think Jesus taught folks like you to turn the other cheek. Another less violent way to read that is to live and let live. Next time you get a chance to vote to support someone else's rights, I hope you consider that.

-Jeff

[dw41552]

If you believe something is "outside of God's will," and you respect this will of God, then I suppose you should act accordingly. However, there are a lot of people who don't agree with you and don't see "God's will" the same way you do.

I think Jesus taught folks like you to turn the other cheek. Another less violent way to read that is to live and let live. Next time you get a chance to vote to support someone else's rights, I hope you consider that.

-Jeff

When someone is disespectful to me in any way, I am to let it go. Turn the other cheek doesn't mean I have to except homosexuality, fornication, drug abuse, alcoholism etc., etc. When I say Homosexuality is not according to God's will, these are not my words, they are Gods. It says it several times in the bible which are His words. So when it comes down to voting for what you call someones rights to do what is against God's will and my principals, I cannot, and will not. I will vote aginst gay marriage every time. Otherwise I become a hipocrite and am saying I except what God is against. As Christians we have to be for God 100% or not at all. This does not mean I think I am better than anyone else. We are all God's children. The difference is some choose to except and embrace that, some don't. I am all about live and let live. I don't force anything on anyone. However I stand by my beliefs even unto death, and when asked a question I will give my answer according to what I believe to be true and not what everyone wants to hear.

God bless

[dw41552]

So, you have no thoughts or opinions of your own? Where is the personal responsibility in that? What "God" are you talking about? Who's God? Whose God? Which God? How do you know the mind of that which you call God? Is it from that grouping of writings and letters assembled by the Catholic Church designed for their own aggrandizement, enrichment and for the control of others? Do you not see that? Do you not question that?

I don't mean to offend you, Toxic, but don't you have a thought or opinion of your own? Do you ever make a decision based on what you feel inside, apart from your exocontroller?

Do you believe it's possible to have self control, or does every decision have to be controlled by powers outside yourself?

What are these "many dangers of sex?"

I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

-Jeff

That quote was written by me, not Toxic. And yes I have many opinions of my own outside of, and sometimes inside Christianity. One of the things our church preaches is don't take our word for it, check it out for yourself. The toughest and the most important decision I've ever had to make was to except Jesus as my Lord and Savior and then try my best to live according to God's will. Thank God I did. He gave me the freedom to choose Him or the world just like He has you and everyone else. I chose Him. Doesn't make me perfect or even close, although Jesus in me has given me the power to change things about me that were negative to positive. Plus It means I am saved despite my sinful nature and will enjoy an eternity of bliss in Heaven with God.

[Braggi]

When someone is disespectful to me in any way, I am to let it go. Turn the other cheek doesn't mean I have to except homosexuality, fornication, drug abuse, alcoholism etc., etc. When I say Homosexuality is not according to God's will, these are not my words, they are Gods. It says it several times in the bible which are His words. ...

OK, I accept that you believe that, now, would you support it with some actual quotes. You say you are a Christian, so please support your statements with quotes from The Christ, as well as an explanation of why you feel the quote you are stating actually was made by The Christ.

Thanks,

-Jeff

[Braggi]

That quote was written by me, not Toxic. And yes I have many opinions of my own outside of, and sometimes inside Christianity. One of the things our church preaches is don't take our word for it, check it out for yourself. ...

Excuse my misquote, now edited.

I didn't expect an answer to my questions and I wasn't disappointed.

Perhaps a reread of my post is in order.

-Jeff