[This is in response to the post: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/conscious-relationship/49833-feminine-presence-your-life.html#post83877 - Barry]
Is is a “conscious relationship” when you have to pay for it?
Now I understand that no relationship is totally unselfish. We give, we get something in return.
A young woman is offering “her company” in return for…well, money. Oldest profession in history? No, she says sex doesn’t enter into this transaction. She wants to help “lonely older men”…at least those with disposable income.
Is this a brilliant way to share love and, by the way, make her car payment? Is it the epitome of an honest relationship, since you will know where you stand…time for money?
Why the hell does this bother me so much? It’s none of my business what consenting adults choose to arrange! I guess it’s the little feminist inside me screaming, “WTF!” I know I’d be really disappointed if one of my daughters used her “enterprenurial” genius to be a Western geisha.
MsTerry
03-05-2009, 09:29 PM
Well had she been more in tune, she would have called herself a therapist or a mental massage person.
Would you have objected to her proposal then?
Is is a “conscious relationship” when you have to pay for it?
Now I understand that no relationship is totally unselfish. We give, we get something in return.
A young woman is offering “her company” in return for…well, money. Oldest profession in history? No, she says sex doesn’t enter into this transaction. She wants to help “lonely older men”…at least those with disposable income.
Is this a brilliant way to share love and, by the way, make her car payment? Is it the epitome of an honest relationship, since you will know where you stand…time for money?
Why the hell does this bother me so much? It’s none of my business what consenting adults choose to arrange! I guess it’s the little feminist inside me screaming, “WTF!” I know I’d be really disappointed if one of my daughters used her “enterprenurial” genius to be a Western geisha.
NorseViking869
03-05-2009, 10:01 PM
For me, I have to say that all consciousness comes from with in, not from without;however, a muse can inspire consciousness.
She may not be selling sex, but her service is a form of prostitution in that you are giving "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE" for a "FEE" when "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE" should be "F(r)EE of CHARGE";however, massage therapist charge a fee to mend aching muscles an the organs and joints connected to those muscles. Also, don't REIKI practitioners charge to align Chakra and bring harmony, strength and well being into ones soul. Too me that is NOT prostiution. I see that her service is a benefit to those that need it:however, men in general, would try to nask for more.
A conscious man may except the service, but an UNconscious man woul dtaker up on the offer, praying for more than she bargins for.
Is is a “conscious relationship” when you have to pay for it?
Now I understand that no relationship is totally unselfish. We give, we get something in return.
A young woman is offering “her company” in return for…well, money. Oldest profession in history? No, she says sex doesn’t enter into this transaction. She wants to help “lonely older men”…at least those with disposable income.
Is this a brilliant way to share love and, by the way, make her car payment? Is it the epitome of an honest relationship, since you will know where you stand…time for money?
Why the hell does this bother me so much? It’s none of my business what consenting adults choose to arrange! I guess it’s the little feminist inside me screaming, “WTF!” I know I’d be really disappointed if one of my daughters used her “enterprenurial” genius to be a Western geisha.
Sylph
03-05-2009, 10:24 PM
I see that her service is a benefit to those that need it:however, men in general, would try to ask for more.
A conscious man may except the service, but an UNconscious man would take her up on the offer, praying for more than she bargains for.
I agree, NV. Very well put.
MT, Actually, no, I wouldn't have had a problem with what you suggest, some kind of 'therapist'.
She is being honest, as I said in my post.
I object to the thought that the older man has so little to offer that he would need or want to pay for the conversation and touch of a pretty young lady...
Maybe I'm the clueless one in this conversation!:wink:
MsTerry
03-05-2009, 10:37 PM
Sylph,
Is it the age difference that bothers you?
Or is it the absence of 'in love'?
I don't think she is clear except that she is raising a question, a concept. It is not clear where she wants to take it.
I agree, NV. Very well put.
MT, Actually, no, I wouldn't have had a problem with what you suggest, some kind of 'therapist'.
She is being honest, as I said in my post.
I object to the thought that the older man has so little to offer that he would need or want to pay for the conversation and touch of a pretty young lady...
Maybe I'm the clueless one in this conversation!:wink:
Sylph
03-05-2009, 10:47 PM
No, it's not a question of age difference, it's a question of money.
There was promise of a 'relationship' which you don't get with a massage.
A 'relationship'...faux-love for money.
Her post had an abundance of feel-good, new age-y window dressing, but it was fairly clear to me that only financially secure old dudes need apply!:):
Sylph,
Is it the age difference that bothers you?
Or is it the absence of 'in love'?
I don't think she is clear except that she is raising a question, a concept. It is not clear where she wants to take it.
NorseViking869
03-05-2009, 10:55 PM
I both object and agree with the statement. Some men of any age for whatever reasons, have little to offer anyone, no fault of their own. Health reasons, birth defects, living near or only interested in shallow people. Self esteem issues.
I know a 38 year old virgin(not by choice) who would love some one who would nurture without sex.It might help his esteem. Only trouble is, that he might require more and that temptation, might set in. Her is a great guy tho, but has never kissed a girl. He is nervous to the point of fear around all of my exes and my current friend. Nervous to the point of not talking but politely still wants to hang out and tag along. I feel he is a candidate fore a Full body massage, caring and nurturing, and a sex surrogate. Too bad if one perso did all that it be cosidered illegal. it is onlky legal for 3 seperate therapists, to do that in different places, or he finds a girlfriend.
I agree, NV. Very well put.
MT, Actually, no, I wouldn't have had a problem with what you suggest, some kind of 'therapist'.
She is being honest, as I said in my post.
I object to the thought that the older man has so little to offer that he would need or want to pay for the conversation and touch of a pretty young lady...
Maybe I'm the clueless one in this conversation!:wink:
nurturetruth
03-06-2009, 12:56 AM
Sylph... than u for starting this thread...
My feeling on it is this:
being present is offering energy.
offering my time is offering my energy
money is a form of energy.
Its just an exchange of energy. just a trade. a barter perhaps.
maybe even a power exchange....who knows?!!
She thinks she has something to offer that would bring an old man happiness. (she'll submit her presence,companionship ,nurturing,time and energy )
And the older man who has money (perhaps doesn't have the health,looks or has ego issues as NV pointed out) and is lonely also has something that could bring someone happiness. As long as they are happy, right?!! :):
Basically its an acknowledged trade of energy (and a type of relationship) for the experience of caring and being cared for. But is it conscious?
The Dali Lama says the universal answer to everything is: "It all depends".
And i think I resonate with that.
It really just depends on the characters involved, and the emotions or dynamics involved, etc.
As most are aware, I enjoy steering clear from playing the role of the judge....
Sylph...just out of curiosity, where did u see this post?
The book Sacred Prostitute is a good read
https://books.google.com/books?id=rTfBtcdjbuoC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=quotations+from+the+sacred+prostitute&source=bl&ots=ExN7YrC96K&sig=VPM2nlZC6UW6uLlcZn1E4mhrj4E&hl=en&ei=lumwSZDiGpGUsAPA-oV6&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA5,M1
......having flashbacks of the movie, "Pretty Woman"........
NudeTea
03-06-2009, 01:42 AM
The list of things in this world that are "wrong" or "questionable" about what other people do seems to always be about what other people do. And it's therefore a list that can grow exponentially.
As humans, we each have our own egos and our own rationale; our own right-and-wrongs. At any given moment we might find our interactions with other humans to drive us apart from each other. Even those who do find love in the world and who do get married and live together ... soon enough they find little irritants between themselves as value systems begin to emerge, show themselves and clash.
Finding someone you can live with is a very difficult thing in this world. Even on Wacco here when I see people posting options of shared housing, I see the list of rules or preferences attached. The home is the sanctuary, and the rules that one person needs within the home in order for that sanctuary to be achieved will vary from one person to the next.
For the old men in the world who need a certain time of companionship and a certain time of solitude, I completely empathize. For the woman who is conscious of that need and has the energy to fulfill it: Yes, the man who would help her pay her bills in return is doing his part in the relationship. The woman you refer to: I would applaud her and call her a goddess.
Zeno Swijtink
03-06-2009, 10:44 AM
I think this is a great topic, and can lead to some soul searching questions for our list: What do we mean by a community that is "conscious" in its dealings with each other, in the care we have for ourselves and for each other.
What can be the role of certain professions that ask for a monetary fee for their service - healers, psychiatrists, councilors, yoga teachers, masseurs, erotic masseurs, geishas, prostitutes - to support people's efforts to practice self-care in a conscious community?
What these people do can also be done between people who are in a relations that is non monetary: spouses, friends, lovers, friends-with-benefits. What is the difference?
What difference does asking money make, what about a sliding scale? Can we trust people to give according to their ability if there is a sliding scale?
What bothers me about this tread however is that it was started immediately after Hidden Jewell posted her query: "A feminine presence in your life."
It appears that people want to talk about these issues, about Hidden Jewell, but not with Hidden Jewell. She seems to be sidelined by opening this new tread.
I don't think that is "conscious," in the sense of open, tolerant, considerate, inclusive.
Is is a “conscious relationship” when you have to pay for it?
Now I understand that no relationship is totally unselfish. We give, we get something in return.
A young woman is offering “her company” in return for…well, money. Oldest profession in history? No, she says sex doesn’t enter into this transaction. She wants to help “lonely older men”…at least those with disposable income.
Is this a brilliant way to share love and, by the way, make her car payment? Is it the epitome of an honest relationship, since you will know where you stand…time for money?
Why the hell does this bother me so much? It’s none of my business what consenting adults choose to arrange! I guess it’s the little feminist inside me screaming, “WTF!” I know I’d be really disappointed if one of my daughters used her “enterprenurial” genius to be a Western geisha.
nurturetruth
03-06-2009, 11:04 AM
Well said, Zeno
i always appreciate your input
:thumbsup:
NudeTea
03-06-2009, 11:11 AM
I don't know Hidden Jewel, Zeno. Did not see the connection. Thank you. As for me, I'm still befuddled time to time about such enigmatic posts as the guy who piped in with a question about taking a bath with 58 old women.
As for this thread and your response, Zeno, absolutely. What is the difference? I do not see it.
NorseViking869
03-06-2009, 11:31 AM
I agree with Zeno for the most part;however, I feel I must give my 2 cents to defend why I believe this thread was started and why it was not a continuation of a previous thread.
I do not think that this Thread is an attack thread at all. I feel that had sylph posted this in Hidden Jewell's Thread, it would be "OFF TOPIC". To play devil's advocate, I believe that the idea That Hidden Jewell wrote about was the muse for this thread. That is a conscious act.
...
What bothers me about this tread however is that it was started immediately after Hidden Jewell posted her query: "A feminine presence in your life."
It appears that people want to talk about these issues, about Hidden Jewell, but not with Hidden Jewell. She seems to be sidelined by opening this new tread.
I don't think that is "conscious," in the sense of open, tolerant, considerate, inclusive.
MsTerry
03-06-2009, 12:43 PM
How hard it is to not agree with the Zeno.
I think Sylph was right to start this new pondering, and as far as I know, she did not exclude Hidden Jewel, heck, she doesn't even exclude me! :thumbsup:
...
What bothers me about this tread however is that it was started immediately after Hidden Jewell posted her query: "A feminine presence in your life."
It appears that people want to talk about these issues, about Hidden Jewell, but not with Hidden Jewell. She seems to be sidelined by opening this new tread.
I don't think that is "conscious," in the sense of open, tolerant, considerate, inclusive.
MsTerry
03-06-2009, 12:49 PM
I do not think that this Thread is an attack thread at all. I feel that had sylph posted this in Hidden Jewell's Thread, it would be "OFF TOPIC". To play devil's advocate, I believe that the idea That Hidden Jewell wrote about was the muse for this thread. That is a conscious act.
Well put NV.
Some how I also felt that Sylph was raising the issue of how young women can prey on older men. The men's loneliness and vulnerability around sex is definitely a victim in the making.
Sylph
03-06-2009, 03:17 PM
What bothers me about this tread however is that it was started immediately after Hidden Jewell posted her query: "A feminine presence in your life."
It appears that people want to talk about these issues, about Hidden Jewell, but not with Hidden Jewell. She seems to be sidelined by opening this new tread.
I don't think that is "conscious," in the sense of open, tolerant, considerate, inclusive.
I did not want to be 'attacking' of Hidden Jewell, but explore my strong feelings that her post brought up in me. I chose to open a new thread to discuss the topic and not step on her thread, out of respect for her business venture.
Again, I reiterate that I'm tolerant of what consenting adults arrange amongst themselves. That doesn't mean I can't have some questions and cautions about these ideas.
Many marriages around the world are business arrangements...love comes later, (one hopes). Here, we hold out for 'love' and we suffer more discontent and pain, it seems. Yes, there are lonely, older men out there. I hope, for their sakes, they try other ways of having a relationship/connection with a woman. I know of several older guys who were taken advantage of by younger women. They are quite vulnerable, especially when the body and mind are engaged...
Hidden Jewell could have jumped into the discussion at any time. I'd welcome her further enlightenment!
Zeno Swijtink
03-06-2009, 04:04 PM
I did not want to be 'attacking' of Hidden Jewell, but explore my strong feelings that her post brought up in me. I chose to open a new thread to discuss the topic and not step on her thread, out of respect for her business venture.
I am sure you did not want to attack Lola/Hidden Jewel, or sideline her. But she did not announce a business venture of hers. She gave some personal details how she got to her question.
I am a beautiful and amazing woman in her mid thirties who is beginning to understand how powerful and dynamic women are.We have so much to offer to our friends, family, partners and the world at large. (...) I believe the world would be a more uplifted and loving if there were (non-sexual) services that would provide the nurturing and heart softening experiences that many of these older gentlemen so desperately need. Out of curiosity, I love would to explore this topic in depth and would love to hear from those who has a resonance with this topic.
With Compassion,
Lola
Many of the things people used to do for each other because of a personal relation they have, now have become paid-for services, from massages to spiritual guidance, parenting advice.
Could (in a conscious community) such a service as Lola mentions emergence as a possible profession?
(I like to take it out of the context of just younger woman/older man. Some women may have a need for this, handicapped.)
Is it a combination of counseling and non-sexual thai massage?
NudeTea
03-06-2009, 04:32 PM
Well if you're going to switch it to women who need company, I've noticed DevaKai looking to have dinner with someone. Let me go see if I have some bills I need to have paid...
:):
I am sure you did not want to attack Lola/Hidden Jewel, or sideline her. But she did not announce a business venture of hers. She gave some personal details how she got to her question.
Many of the things people used to do for each other because of a personal relation they have, now have become paid-for services, from massages to spiritual guidance, parenting advice.
Could (in a conscious community) such a service as Lola mentions emergence as a possible profession?
(I like to take it out of the context of just younger woman/older man. Some women may have a need for this, handicapped.)
Is it a combination of counseling and non-sexual thai massage?
Sylph
03-06-2009, 04:36 PM
Actually, there is a need for this kind of service, very much so.
As long as nobody gets hurt, why not?
Part of my objection was the anti-feminist use of her youth and 'amazingness' as a commodity that she would sell....
Are we only 'goddesses' when we're young and pretty?
The nurturing/massage service/listening part is fine.
I'm still grappling with this whole thing, but have a more balanced perspective now!:):
Thanks to everyone who helped me through this.
Braggi
03-06-2009, 04:57 PM
... Part of my objection was the anti-feminist use of her youth and 'amazingness' as a commodity that she would sell....
Are we only 'goddesses' when we're young and pretty?
The nurturing/massage service/listening part is fine. ...
She is a Goddess who is young and pretty. No reason for her not to announce it and revel in it!
I would suggest that she's not selling that, per se, but is selling her time; her service; her work. Isn't that what we all do?
-Jeff
PS. The Goddess comes in infinite forms. But you knew that.
NudeTea
03-06-2009, 04:59 PM
Young and pretty are both relative terms. But again, I return to the comment I made earlier that I do not even know the Hidden Jewel person. When I called her a goddess, I was speaking blindly; and based solely on principles of character trait, not appearances.
Actually, there is a need for this kind of service, very much so.
As long as nobody gets hurt, why not?
Part of my objection was the anti-feminist use of her youth and 'amazingness' as a commodity that she would sell....
Are we only 'goddesses' when we're young and pretty?
The nurturing/massage service/listening part is fine.
I'm still grappling with this whole thing, but have a more balanced perspective now!:):
Thanks to everyone who helped me through this.
Sylph
03-06-2009, 05:49 PM
Hrrummph!
It's just that massage therapists, psychologists, life coaches, energy healers, etc, don't usually advertise their personal attractiveness (except for the photo on the website...) Youth is not necessarily a desired qualification for a healer or therapist.
I give up!:hmmm:
Braggi
03-06-2009, 06:26 PM
... Youth is not necessarily a desired qualification for a healer or therapist. ...
???? If a person is good at what she does ...
Perhaps there is a customer for this person who prefers someone youthful. Sometimes that's exactly what an older person wants: time with someone(s) younger. My family befriended two elderly ladies in the past. Both complained about having to hang around with old people all the time. They loved it when we visited and brought our kids.
I think it's a blessing on both to blend old and young.
-Jeff
Zeno Swijtink
03-06-2009, 06:27 PM
Hrrummph!
It's just that massage therapists, psychologists, life coaches, energy healers, etc, don't usually advertise their personal attractiveness (except for the photo on the website...) Youth is not necessarily a desired qualification for a healer or therapist.
I give up!:hmmm:
Just a random picking from the web ...
Random, my ass!
You picked it because of the cleavage, DOM!
MsTerry
03-06-2009, 06:43 PM
WOOWOWOWWOWWOW
The jewel is still hiding but that is no reason to assume for a fact that she is selling her services.
Sylph asked some questions, never got an answer, but to now, state this is her job is going a little to fast.
Until Lola announces that she is available for these kind of encounters, we shouldn't write as if she is
She is a Goddess who is young and pretty. No reason for her not to announce it and revel in it!
I would suggest that she's not selling that, per se, but is selling her time; her service; her work. Isn't that what we all do?
-Jeff
PS. The Goddess comes in infinite forms. But you knew that.
Sylph
03-06-2009, 07:14 PM
Jeff is correct that the "youngest" old people love to surround themselves with young people. My old pal, who is 90-something, adores the young, cute caregivers. He's always joking that a 70ish year old lady is "too old for him". He is not senile at all, but has a weakness for women! It's a guy thing. Y'all can't help it and I love you for it!
I withdraw the remark about "young" therapists. Obviously, you would want someone with enough experience, and many times decades of experience at something lends wisdom and skill. I am thinking of the NP at the clinic who can diagnose an obscure muscle ache and prescribe a cure(knowledge gained after years of practice). I bet a bodyworker learns much over the years, too. On the other hand, some people just possess a gift and are up to speed right away.
Lola had another thread that had more info, but it's gone now. If she wanted to help an 'established' older man, what does that suggest? Lola, is it for money? Can I hire you for my old friend?
Zeno Swijtink
03-06-2009, 08:45 PM
Jeff is correct that the "youngest" old people love to surround themselves with young people. My old pal, who is 90-something, adores the young, cute caregivers. He's always joking that a 70ish year old lady is "too old for him". He is not senile at all, but has a weakness for women! It's a guy thing. Y'all can't help it and I love you for it!
I withdraw the remark about "young" therapists. Obviously, you would want someone with enough experience, and many times decades of experience at something lends wisdom and skill. I am thinking of the NP at the clinic who can diagnose an obscure muscle ache and prescribe a cure(knowledge gained after years of practice). I bet a bodyworker learns much over the years, too. On the other hand, some people just possess a gift and are up to speed right away.
Lola had another thread that had more info, but it's gone now. If she wanted to help an 'established' older man, what does that suggest? Lola, is it for money? Can I hire you for my old friend?
It seems there are only four or five topics on Wacco that we always go back to. I remember that in 2006, when MsWacco https://www.waccobb.net/forums/avatars/mrs-wacco.gif?dateline=1174882244 still gave relationship advice, I asked her about intimate relationships between people of different generations, as for example in the story of King David and Abishag the Shunamite (1 Kings 1:4).
1 When King David was old and advanced in years, though they spread covers over him he could not keep warm.
2 His servants therefore said to him, "Let a young virgin be sought to attend you, lord king, and to nurse you. If she sleeps with your royal majesty, you will be kept warm."
3 So they sought for a beautiful girl throughout the territory of Israel, and found Abishag the Shunamite, whom they brought to the king.
4 The maiden, who was very beautiful, nursed the king and cared for him, but the king did not have relations with her.
At the time she did not think that my example involves intimate relations.
Braggi
03-06-2009, 09:48 PM
... At the time she did not think that my example involves intimate relations.
There can be sex without intimacy and intimacy without sex.
I like them together.
Your example sounds pretty intimate to me.
-Jeff
Dandelion
03-07-2009, 12:49 AM
Beautifully said:thumbsup:
The list of things in this world that are "wrong" or "questionable" about what other people do seems to always be about what other people do. And it's therefore a list that can grow exponentially.
As humans, we each have our own egos and our own rationale; our own right-and-wrongs. At any given moment we might find our interactions with other humans to drive us apart from each other. Even those who do find love in the world and who do get married and live together ... soon enough they find little irritants between themselves as value systems begin to emerge, show themselves and clash.
Finding someone you can live with is a very difficult thing in this world. Even on Wacco here when I see people posting options of shared housing, I see the list of rules or preferences attached. The home is the sanctuary, and the rules that one person needs within the home in order for that sanctuary to be achieved will vary from one person to the next.
For the old men in the world who need a certain time of companionship and a certain time of solitude, I completely empathize. For the woman who is conscious of that need and has the energy to fulfill it: Yes, the man who would help her pay her bills in return is doing his part in the relationship. The woman you refer to: I would applaud her and call her a goddess.
pjpete
03-07-2009, 08:51 AM
Well to me, the "Consciousness" of wanting money in return for keeping one company only leads to problems, such as codependency, and lack of self esteem. I have a friend, 24, he recently got involved with someone who wanted money for friendship. After spending much money on her, she has now paid for an attorney with sex (she advertised on the internet for legal help in return for ....U KNOW WHAT) and now she has a restraining order against the dude because he fell in love with her and couldn't control his emotions. This what I have to say about this topic.
Well had she been more in tune, she would have called herself a therapist or a mental massage person.
Would you have objected to her proposal then?
pjpete
03-07-2009, 08:59 AM
Don't Give Up......:thumbsup:
MsTerry
03-07-2009, 09:24 AM
In order to keep it business like, you would have to meet in an office.
But then what fun is that?
Well to me, the "Consciousness" of wanting money in return for keeping one company only leads to problems, such as codependency, and lack of self esteem. I have a friend, 24, he recently got involved with someone who wanted money for friendship. After spending much money on her, she has now paid for an attorney with sex (she advertised on the internet for legal help in return for ....U KNOW WHAT) and now she has a restraining order against the dude because he fell in love with her and couldn't control his emotions. This what I have to say about this topic.
notsomuch
03-08-2009, 02:37 PM
Is is a “conscious relationship” when you have to pay for it?
Now I understand that no relationship is totally unselfish. We give, we get something in return.
This is true depending on your perspective. If there is a perspective of separation, of otherness to any degree then obviously there is give and take, (although that is not the same as an agreement that you'll get in exchange for what you give) and although on a phenomenal level there is that appearance, it would technically not even be relationship from an all-inclusive perspective because there would be no separateness for relating to happen - it's just one movement. One might call that the ultimate in conscious relationship, because otherwise it is only relatively conscious relationship, strictly speaking.
Also, as someone pointed out, the Dalai Lama saying the answer to everything is "it depends" - like dependent origination, like karmically based cause and effect. Of course that's in terms of thingness, or in the case of relationship personal identification, selfness. No-thingness would be the truely unselfish. Not even altruistic, but you're just not approaching it with the perspective of "seeing things." But of course, there is that tendancy to want to be seen as some kind of thing, like a sexy thing - that we don't even venture out of the realm of not-thingness.
Braggi
03-08-2009, 05:31 PM
... although on a phenomenal level there is that appearance, it would technically not even be relationship from an all-inclusive perspective because there would be no separateness for relating to happen - it's just one movement. One might call that the ultimate in conscious relationship, because otherwise it is only relatively conscious relationship, strictly speaking. ...
Aha! The gobbledegook of conscious relationship.
Once I understand this, I will be truly enlightened, in a conscious relationship sense, strictly speaking, although possibly not on a phenomenal level though there could be that appearance, though not necessarily from an all-inclusive perspective. Hmmmm.
-Jeff
PS. Think I'll have a drink.
Braggi
03-08-2009, 05:49 PM
... Why the hell does this bother me so much? It’s none of my business what consenting adults choose to arrange! I guess it’s the little feminist inside me screaming, “WTF!” I know I’d be really disappointed if one of my daughters used her “enterprenurial” genius to be a Western geisha.
I love this conversation and the one going on related threads. Why is it this idea makes us squirm?
To take it one step further, what do we think about the young ladies now offering their virginity to the highest bidder? They, of course, have to meet with and approve of the purchaser or they'll take the next offer down. I heard about a case where a young woman was going to receive a million and a half dollars for a single night's work. And the gentlemen was going to wine her and dine her in the most extravagant way ahead of time. Interesting, eh?
Could I offer to pay my daughter's way through an ivy league medical school? Now here's a young lady that's going to put herself through school with a single day's work.
What will I say to my daughter if she suggests this path for herself?
(Yes, the young lady in question was an adult. 23 years old if I remember right.)
-Jeff
notsomuch
03-08-2009, 05:51 PM
Heh, it's not JUST the gobbledegook of conscious relationship though, but you can use it here too.
You gotta have separation to relate, otherwise the word just has no meaning. What's relating to what? You could say you're relating to yourself or Self with the big S but that's just redundant - although I understand a good time can be had there too, whether your s is upper or lower case... But in that sense you can say it's all Selfish, the word self just tends to make you look at things in terms of separation and differences though, rather than what's the same. Male/female, young/old, here/there..
Of course, if we just want to do that dance that's not really something we'd want to be conscious of. In that case maybe it should be qualified in terms of psychologically conscious relationships or something, rather than just conscious relationship.
Aha! The gobbledegook of conscious relationship.
Once I understand this, I will be truly enlightened, in a conscious relationship sense, strictly speaking, although possibly not on a phenomenal level though there could be that appearance, though not necessarily from an all-inclusive perspective. Hmmmm.
-Jeff
PS. Think I'll have a drink.
notsomuch
03-08-2009, 06:11 PM
Twisted mind that I have, I think of that part in Austin Powers where Dr. Evil demands "One MILLION dollars!"
And here I will try to relate it to the gobbledegook without using more gobbledegook. Don't worry, my attention span is far too limited for it to be too long.
So we can look at this from the perspective of being free, both being free from doing something and being free to do it. So applying that to this kind of situation, free from being any kind of person (not-self/thing) who does something like this is one possibility, but being free to (Self/thing) do it or whatever else is another. If you are free to do it without being free from the need, whether it's on the buying or receiving end, then of course you may feel compelled by financial need or the idea that a young woman is the cats meow or whatever. On the other hand, if you are free from the need then you wouldn't be as inclined to do it, although in terms of er, life opportunities it may pass you by I suppose.
So basically in that first message I was just emphasizing the freedom from aspect. When we're caught up with questions of should we do this or that, the freedom to not do anything isn't on the table.
I love this conversation and the one going on related threads. Why is it this idea makes us squirm?
To take it one step further, what do we think about the young ladies now offering their virginity to the highest bidder? They, of course, have to meet with and approve of the purchaser or they'll take the next offer down. I heard about a case where a young woman was going to receive a million and a half dollars for a single night's work. And the gentlemen was going to wine her and dine her in the most extravagant way ahead of time. Interesting, eh?
Could I offer to pay my daughter's way through an ivy league medical school? Now here's a young lady that's going to put herself through school with a single day's work.
What will I say to my daughter if she suggests this path for herself?
(Yes, the young lady in question was an adult. 23 years old if I remember right.)
-Jeff
MsTerry
03-08-2009, 06:22 PM
Could I offer to pay my daughter's way through an ivy league medical school? Now here's a young lady that's going to put herself through school with a single day's work.
-Jeff
Why would she put herself through about a decade of studies if she couldn't wait to get unwrapped for all the right reasons?
Once you've found a cash-cow, you'd better use it while you can................................
Braggi
03-08-2009, 07:26 PM
... Once you've found a cash-cow, you'd better use it while you can................................
Well, I guess that's your way of thinking, eh?
-Jeff
MsTerry
03-08-2009, 10:04 PM
No,
I don't offer any parts of me up for sale on Ebay
Well, I guess that's your way of thinking, eh?
-Jeff
hales
03-08-2009, 11:06 PM
Hi, Sylph, hi everyone..
I'm really afraid to state the obvious.. but, money is often considered just as important in mating as how somebody looks or smells. I think that honesty and openness is the factor that differentiates a financial transaction from a "relationship" as we generally think of relationship. If it's sort of a tacit, unstated agreement, it's a lot like many other marriages and relationships; If it's an overt trade of services for money or other considerations, it's more of a business deal. (Yet still might be called a marriage!)
On the other hand.. perhaps an arranged marriage, or marriage of financial or other convenience, might have as good a chance of lasting, as a marriage based on "falling in love".. after all all that heat and fire often goes away in a fairly short time; maybe 3 months or a year, then we have to find another way of being interested in each other. In California, the survival of marriages is less than half, I think.. we stay committed until it get uncomfortable, we get bored, or until something better comes along, apparently. Or, we "grow apart" whatever that means. We no longer have much social reinforcement for staying committed and together, after the glow is gone, but there is tons of input encouraging us to try to "trade up" if we have the wherewithal to do so..
Let's ask a question about a hypothetical daughter.. how would you feel if a daughter of yours was deeply in love with a charming wandering musician with little financial prospects, or engaged to a handsome young doctor or lawyer.. it's not like either one is necessarily wanting to "buy" your daughter, but we hope that our children will do well in life and not have to struggle, financially. If she agreed to live with a nice old rich guy who treated her well, financially, a parent might feel very uncomfortable with it, UNLESS her future would otherwise be much less secure; perhaps she is from a third world country with no other prospects... her parents might feel relieved to not worry about her welfare.. at least she is safe and secure, if not in an "ideal" relationship.. the ideals of romance and true love lasting forever, are relatively recent inventions, in history, after all.
I've experienced the double standards of women. Modern women expect to be treated as equals with men, yet often also want to be treated as a princess or a queen.. Just today a nice, very attractive woman, very close to my age, expressed that she was interested in me, but also said that she was tired of dating men who expected her to pay her own way. She feels she is "worth it"... (being treated to dinner, trips, etc..) I have nothing against a woman telling me how she expects to be treated, at least then I can decide if I can afford to try to be involved with them.
A guy needs to know what is expected of him and to be realistic about if he can do that.. a woman wants to know if a man can provide for her and a child, or at least pull his own weight, especially if she is considering starting a family with him; people of both sexes probably need to find out about their potential partner's assets, credit, debt load and financial habits, before becoming very involved. It's silly to try to ignore the importance of money in a relationship. I think it tends to be a big blind spot for many of us.
After all, marriage is probably the decision that will most impact a person's financial future, for good or ill.. it could be the start of an empire or the beginning of the end of a person's financial security, if the decision is bad or "things change"..
I won't bore you with my own marriage and divorce saga.. but it turned out to be a disaster for me financially, and I did my best to be a good partner, parent and later, I was a good provider of child and spousal support. I had a lot of free time and extra money before I got married and I am still dealing with the consequences, 20 years later. The best part of the deal is my 20 year old son.
Yow.. it's really a story that has no end. I wish everyone the best in finding a comfortable and appropriate balance in life.. with love, health, abundance, and joy.
Scott.
No, it's not a question of age difference, it's a question of money.
There was promise of a 'relationship' which you don't get with a massage.
A 'relationship'...faux-love for money.
Her post had an abundance of feel-good, new age-y window dressing, but it was fairly clear to me that only financially secure old dudes need apply!:):