Rain

[Ice Queen]

O.K. Whoever did the rain dance can stop dancing now.

[photolite]

No!!! Keep dancing! We need LOTS more rain!
Photo


O.K. Whoever did the rain dance can stop dancing now.

[massagemaiden]

O.K. Whoever did the rain dance can stop dancing now.

I'm one of the rain dancers and have impressed myself with the power of our feet, our hearts, our thoughts.
Unfortunately, we're not even close to being able to stop dancing. We've been in a drought for so long we've forgotten what a normal year's rainfall is.
So I will keep dancing, affirming, praying for constant and consistent rain for at least another month, enjoying the magnificent Cumulous clouds and the way the sun sparkles off of everything whenever there is a break.

[nurturetruth]

I am also one of those rain dancers . Thank u to all the rain dancers and to Gaia for the wonderful rain!

I heard thunder the other morning for the first time this rain season!
I soo enjoyed it
and i just love walking in nature after a day of good rain...the smells are incredible!
I have also seen about 8 rainbows so far during this rainy season!
as a matter of fact, saw 1 today!
There was just enough light and just enough rain clouds....

Today, during the times of gorgeous sunlight, I ended up sunbathing in my garden as I hung out with my little winged bird friends.

It was a good day. There is alot to be thankful for.

I hear there are more sunny times to come before we have more rain.
It will be a nice break.

I will join u, massage maiden and all the other rain dancers out there...i
continuing our dances, rituals and prayers for us to receive more rain .


:columb:

<center>https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3331/3329358367_91d6a5ba8d.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/34605767@N02/3329358367/)</center>

[Sara S]

Check out Mark Morford's column today at sfgate.com: "We Are So Wet"

https://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2009/03/06/notes030609.DTL

[Dixon]

I'm one of the rain dancers and have impressed myself with the power of our feet, our hearts, our thoughts...
So I will keep dancing, affirming, praying for constant and consistent rain ...

I thought people were joking about the rain dancing. Stupid me--I'd forgotten that there's no belief so silly that someone in Sebastopol won't believe it, especially if it allows people to feel that they have power over things we're powerless over.

Apparently rain is caused by dancing, praying and other forms of ritualizing instead of the silly scientific explanations of those benighted meteorologists who insist on attributing it to the wonderful water cycle that keeps our planet livable in spite of the actions of humans (so far, anyway).

Of course, that begs the question: How did it rain so much in the billions of years before anyone existed to ritualize the rain into coming down? I'm sure the highly evolved pseudo-shamans of Sebastopol will have plenty of good answers for that one, presumably based on "New Science", "ancient wisdom traditions", "channeled information", or "womyn's ways of knowing", LOL!!!!

Dixon

[alanora]

I believe it was National Geographic on line where I read recently about how much rain was made to fall in china as a result of human intervention with clouds.....Mindy


I thought people were joking about the rain dancing. Stupid me--I'd forgotten that there's no belief so silly that someone in Sebastopol won't believe it, especially if it allows people to feel that they have power over things we're powerless over.

Apparently rain is caused by dancing, praying and other forms of ritualizing instead of the silly scientific explanations of those benighted meteorologists who insist on attributing it to the wonderful water cycle that keeps our planet livable in spite of the actions of humans (so far, anyway).

Of course, that begs the question: How did it rain so much in the billions of years before anyone existed to ritualize the rain into coming down? I'm sure the highly evolved pseudo-shamans of Sebastopol will have plenty of good answers for that one, presumably based on "New Science", "ancient wisdom traditions", "channeled information", or "womyn's ways of knowing", LOL!!!!

Dixon

[nurturetruth]

hmmm....:hmmm:

can someone say....HAARP?!

https://educate-yourself.org/cn/weacontrolbychossudovsky2000.shtml


ahhhh.......till we get more rain...enjoy the sun!
https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3595/3341354907_eb714f8022.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/34605767@N02/3341354907/)

[Dixon]

I believe it was National Geographic on line where I read recently about how much rain was made to fall in china as a result of human intervention with clouds.....Mindy

Here's the link for the National Geographic article which is probably the one you're referring to, Mindy:

China&#39;s Rain-Free Olympics Plan Met With Skepticism (https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080423-olympics-weather.html)

Thanks for mentioning it; I found the explication of different attempts to create rain interesting. Some of them might even be somewhat efficacious, though that's apparently none too certain at this point. Of course, none of it has anything to do with people supposedly bringing on rain through dancing/praying/ritualizing.

Cheers!

Dixon

P.S. It was nice meeting you the other day.

[alanora]

At the point from which the article was written, the action and its results were seemingly known, no longer a plan. I am gonna see if I can find it...........Very nice meeting you as well.


Here's the link for the National Geographic article which is probably the one you're referring to, Mindy:

China's Rain-Free Olympics Plan Met With Skepticism (https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080423-olympics-weather.html)

Thanks for mentioning it; I found the explication of different attempts to create rain interesting. Some of them might even be somewhat efficacious, though that's apparently none too certain at this point. Of course, none of it has anything to do with people supposedly bringing on rain through dancing/praying/ritualizing.

Cheers!

Dixon

P.S. It was nice meeting you the other day.

[Braggi]

... Apparently rain is caused by dancing, praying and other forms of ritualizing ...

Dixon, you missed something. Rain is cause FOR dancing, praying and ritualizing. Timing could be before, during or after rain.

You could drop a tiny bit of your atheism and lean toward Paganism a little bit more and you'd do just fine. Stop focusing so much on the seeming illogic of it all and see it as various methods of celebrating all the amazing mysteries of life instead of as an attempt to move the mysteries through anything other than changing ourselves.

Anodea Judith calls "Magic" probability enhancement. So a person who's working magic is attempting to cause an outcome, not necessarily by doing something ridiculous or illogical, but by working on whatever is necessary to enhance the probability of the outcome they wish for. I think very few rain dancers actually believe they're causing the rain. Demanding or pleading for gifts from the Gods is likely to be a disappointing task. However, if you wait for the forecast to predict rain tomorrow it's suddenly a great day to do a rain dance. If the outcome you're after is a medical degree, the best magic to cause that is enrolling in medical school. Both are working magic in my way of thinking, and both are cause for, and methods of celebrating life.

-Jeff

[Zeno Swijtink]

Dixon, you missed something. Rain is cause FOR dancing, praying and ritualizing. Timing could be before, during or after rain.

You could drop a tiny bit of your atheism and lean toward Paganism a little bit more and you'd do just fine. Stop focusing so much on the seeming illogic of it all and see it as various methods of celebrating all the amazing mysteries of life instead of as an attempt to move the mysteries through anything other than changing ourselves.

Anodea Judith calls "Magic" probability enhancement. So a person who's working magic is attempting to cause an outcome, not necessarily by doing something ridiculous or illogical, but by working on whatever is necessary to enhance the probability of the outcome they wish for. I think very few rain dancers actually believe they're causing the rain. Demanding or pleading for gifts from the Gods is likely to be a disappointing task. However, if you wait for the forecast to predict rain tomorrow it's suddenly a great day to do a rain dance. If the outcome you're after is a medical degree, the best magic to cause that is enrolling in medical school. Both are working magic in my way of thinking, and both are cause for, and methods of celebrating life.

-Jeff

Jeff, are you saying that dancing for rain, when there is a 75% probability of rain tomorrow, increase the probability of rain over the 75%??

[Braggi]

Jeff, are you saying that dancing for rain, when there is a 75% probability of rain tomorrow, increase the probability of rain over the 75%??

It increases the likelihood that you'll be happy about it.

-Jeff

[Zeno Swijtink]

It increases the likelihood that you'll be happy about it.

-Jeff

Is this what Anodea Judith calls probability enhancement? I always wondered. So when you dance and rain doesn't come you feel more depressed: your life is enhanced, not so flat as the atheists have it. And when you want that MD but didn't go to medical school but you get the degree for your birthday from your sister-in-law who bought it on the internet, you feel happier? more depressed??

I think I'm still confused.

[Braggi]

Is this what Anodea Judith calls probability enhancement? ...

Probability enhancement is doing what's necessary to make your desire reality. In the case of rain, it could be called "getting your ducks in a row."


... So when you dance and rain doesn't come you feel more depressed: your life is enhanced, not so flat as the atheists have it. ...

The rain always comes. It depends on certain (weather) factors how long it takes for the rain dance to work. Yes, I think most atheists live lives that are either "flat" (good word) or tense because it seems they're always ready to resist something. Relaxation helps. I'm not sure Paganism helps a lot. Perhaps Buddhism would work better.


... And when you want that MD but didn't go to medical school but you get the degree for your birthday from your sister-in-law who bought it on the internet, you feel happier? more depressed??

I think I'm still confused.

It will ever be thus Zeno. Learn to live with it. :wink: I'm trying.

-Jeff

[Zeno Swijtink]

Probability enhancement is doing what's necessary to make your desire reality. In the case of rain, it could be called "getting your ducks in a row."

A rather limited lifestyle I would think, not one that fits a worldview of chance and uncertainty:

See here, for years we have had our ducks in a row for rain: English lawns, Cleopatraen showers, use of good water to flush our shit, to frost and heat protect our grapes, ...

And behold, as we have lined up our ducks for our desire, we are in a drought, out of touch with the real.

[alanora]

Turns out twas not national geographic but "Reuters"....I can't seem to add the link.........talks of 12 highways being closed!!!!! due to artificially induced snow......in china (file:///Users/admin/Desktop/www.reuters.com:.webloc)


Here's the link for the National Geographic article which is probably the one you're referring to, Mindy:

China's Rain-Free Olympics Plan Met With Skepticism (https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080423-olympics-weather.html)

Thanks for mentioning it; I found the explication of different attempts to create rain interesting. Some of them might even be somewhat efficacious, though that's apparently none too certain at this point. Of course, none of it has anything to do with people supposedly bringing on rain through dancing/praying/ritualizing.

Cheers!

Dixon

P.S. It was nice meeting you the other day.

[Braggi]

Turns out twas not national geographic but "Reuters"....I can't seem to add the link.........talks of 12 highways being closed!!!!! due to artificially induced snow......in china (file:///Users/admin/Desktop/www.reuters.com:.webloc)

Try this: Artificial snow in China closes 12 highways | NowPublic News Coverage (https://www.nowpublic.com/environment/artificial-snow-china-closes-12-highways)

It doesn't sound like a very big deal.

-Jeff

[Sciguy]

Rain dancers and rain wishers all:

There is an excellent presentation by Willy Smits on TED (TED: Ideas worth spreading (https://www.ted.com)) explaining how his group reforested and recovered denuded land in Indonesia. What captured my attention was his demonstration of the greatly increased rainfall over the newly forested section. He had satellite pictures of the extent to which the rainfall was affected. It seems that we do indeed have the ability to increase rainfall.

Sciguy


I believe it was National Geographic on line where I read recently about how much rain was made to fall in china as a result of human intervention with clouds.....Mindy

[Dixon]

Yes, trees are wonderful natural pumps that transport water from underground into the air, transforming the environment around them through increased precipitation etc.

And conversely, removing trees will dry out an ecosystem. Extreme example: The inhabitants of the island we call Easter Island denuded their once-lush island of trees, largely for superstitious reasons (they used logs to roll their giant stone heads from the quarry down to the coastline in order to propitiate their gods--their version of "probability enhancement", magic, religion, or whatever you want to call it.) As a result, their ecosystem dried up. Many years later, when the first Europeans arrived, they found an unhealthy, degraded culture, barely eking out a living, who would probably have gone extinct without outside intervention.

In other words, because they dealt with their problems superstitiously, through rituals propitiating their imaginary deities, instead of rationally, they substantially destroyed their world and themselves. I leave it to those of you Sonoma County New Agers, pagans and "shamans" who can be reasoned with to consider the parallels and take the obvious lesson. The rest of you are invited to make a doll of me and stick pins into it, put a hex on me, or whatever other type of "probability enhancement" floats your boat.

Blessings;

Dixon



Rain dancers and rain wishers all:

There is an excellent presentation by Willy Smits on TED (TED: Ideas worth spreading (https://www.ted.com)) explaining how his group reforested and recovered denuded land in Indonesia. What captured my attention was his demonstration of the greatly increased rainfall over the newly forested section. He had satellite pictures of the extent to which the rainfall was affected. It seems that we do indeed have the ability to increase rainfall.

Sciguy

[Braggi]

... In other words, because they dealt with their problems superstitiously, through rituals propitiating their imaginary deities, instead of rationally, they substantially destroyed their world and themselves. I leave it to those of you Sonoma County New Agers, pagans and "shamans" who can be reasoned with to consider the parallels and take the obvious lesson. The rest of you are invited to make a doll of me and stick pins into it, put a hex on me, or whatever other type of "probability enhancement" floats your boat. ...

Dixon, why so cynical and offensive? Did you have trouble understanding what I wrote? Your analogy is idiotic. I expect better of you.

-Jeff

[enigmaha]

Though I think maintaining a healthy skepticism about things has its merits, so does remaining open-minded enough to consider that there are dimensions to reality that still remain hidden to most of us.

I’m trained as a scientist yet I have personally experienced a multitude of occurrences that defy ‘logical’ explanation leaving not a shadow of a doubt that a ‘mystical’ element (something not yet explainable by science) was at play. Science is still in its infancy on many levels. Continued investigations into the realm of quantum physics will eventually turn our currently held notion of reality upside down (or, rather, inside-out). In fact, it has already begun to do this. What we presently attribute to the realm of the mystical may one day be able to be explained by science and potentially will then be more readily incorporated into our day-to-day awareness and approach to being alive.

Our individual and collective psyches and intentions do indeed influence outcomes, although to varying degrees. We are helping to shape ‘reality’ through our evolving consciousness and awareness.

On more than one occasion, I have personally witnessed the weather being directly and dramatically affected by energy/emotions/vibrations being generated by humans—from dense fog being dissipated in a ring overhead of a circle of meditators to a single raincloud forming overhead in what was an otherwise cloudless sunny sky and raining on the person who called it in. This phenomenon was repeated that same day three different times.

There are many mysteries that have yet to be explained! As a lover of the Great Adventure, I’m glad that this is so and I celebrate the wonder, rain or shine!

[Barry]

On more than one occasion, I have personally witnessed the weather being directly and dramatically affected by energy/emotions/vibrations being generated by humans—from dense fog being dissipated in a ring overhead of a circle of meditators to a single raincloud forming overhead in what was an otherwise cloudless sunny sky and raining on the person who called it in. This phenomenon was repeated that same day three different times.

I have also witnessed uncanny weather 'coincidences' around Grateful Dead concerts (and, no, I didn't hallucinate them!) Like the time when mist rolled in and rolled out during a great "Franklin's Tower (https://arts.ucsc.edu/GDEAD/AGDL/franklin.html)" and a brief rain during "Cold Rain and Snow" at the Greek Theater.

And the there was rally for the Headwaters forest, maybe 10 years ago, up in Humboldt and after the rally a fabulous, "solid" double (or was it triple?) rainbow appeared directly behind the stage and stayed there for an hour or two!

[photolite]

I find Dixon's analogy neither idiotic nor offensive. He's merely citing two instances of measurerable and quantifiable cause and effect that are relevant to this discussion.

Enigmaha seems to have experienced some extraordinary weather phenomenon during a sublime moment(s). There didn't appear to be any conclusive evidence that "magic" or "mystcism" was afoot however. Enigmaha apparently perceived it as such but there is no substantiation other than personal opinion. I'd also apply the same statement to Barry's experience, and even some of my own.

Photo


Dixon, why so cynical and offensive? Did you have trouble understanding what I wrote? Your analogy is idiotic. I expect better of you.

-Jeff

[Sciguy]

Enigmaha:
I see that you claim the mantle of scientific training, yet you express ideas that almost all physical scientists eschew so I wonder if I might respectfully ask what kind of science training you are referring to?
<p>
There are so many kinds of "science" claims now that it is hard to keep score. There is even "noetic science" whatever that might be (just religion in a new package so far I can tell).
<p>
"Remaining open minded" is often code for remaining ignorant of scientific knowledge. "Hidden dimensions to reality" sounds like a rejection of what has actually been discovered by science. I am quite surprised to hear this coming from someone claiming to have been trained in science. Unless the training failed to stick, or was rejected.
<p>
Thanks,
<br>

Sciguy
Chemist, PhD, Yale, 1966


Though I think maintaining a healthy skepticism about things has its merits, so does remaining open-minded enough to consider that there are dimensions to reality that still remain hidden to most of us.

I’m trained as a scientist yet I have personally experienced a multitude of occurrences that defy ‘logical’ explanation leaving not a shadow of a doubt that a ‘mystical’ element (something not yet explainable by science) was at play. Science is still in its infancy on many levels. Continued investigations into the realm of quantum physics will eventually turn our currently held notion of reality upside down (or, rather, inside-out). In fact, it has already begun to do this. What we presently attribute to the realm of the mystical may one day be able to be explained by science and potentially will then be more readily incorporated into our day-to-day awareness and approach to being alive.

Our individual and collective psyches and intentions do indeed influence outcomes, although to varying degrees. We are helping to shape ‘reality’ through our evolving consciousness and awareness.

On more than one occasion, I have personally witnessed the weather being directly and dramatically affected by energy/emotions/vibrations being generated by humans—from dense fog being dissipated in a ring overhead of a circle of meditators to a single raincloud forming overhead in what was an otherwise cloudless sunny sky and raining on the person who called it in. This phenomenon was repeated that same day three different times.

There are many mysteries that have yet to be explained! As a lover of the Great Adventure, I’m glad that this is so and I celebrate the wonder, rain or shine!

[The A Team]

An inspiring video from trees for the future:
Trees for the Future > Resource Center > Technical Data (https://www.treesftf.org/resources/tftfvideo.htm)
everyone- have a look.


Rain dancers and rain wishers all:

There is an excellent presentation by Willy Smits on TED (TED: Ideas worth spreading (https://www.ted.com)) explaining how his group reforested and recovered denuded land in Indonesia. What captured my attention was his demonstration of the greatly increased rainfall over the newly forested section. He had satellite pictures of the extent to which the rainfall was affected. It seems that we do indeed have the ability to increase rainfall.

Sciguy

[Braggi]

I find Dixon's analogy neither idiotic nor offensive. He's merely citing two instances of measurerable and quantifiable cause and effect that are relevant to this discussion. ...

Dixon's analogy, that someone today, who is doing a dance to celebrate nature and it's processes (in particular, the gift of rain), is doing the same thing as Easter islanders deforesting an island to appease their "God" is idiotic. Sorry, I can't think of a better word to describe it. It read to me as an intended offense to me based on his wording and his quote of my words. Not sure how else to describe it.

A similar analogy is that all physicians are trying to poison their patients because George Washington's physicians killed him with lead and mercury treatments. Therefore all physicians are poisoners with no more knowledge than those of hundreds of years ago.

Yup, that's idiotic and I believe Dixon was being intentionally offensive.

As I said, I expect better of Dixon, who is somebody I know, like and respect.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

An inspiring video from trees for the future:
Trees for the Future > Resource Center > Technical Data (https://www.treesftf.org/resources/tftfvideo.htm)
everyone- have a look.

Inspiring indeed. That's the kind of "probability enhancement" I was talking about. With work like that a desert can be turned into a paradise.

Now that's magic.

-Jeff

[enigmaha]

Hi Sciguy,

What I was addressing is not at odds with science; it’s on the cutting edge of science! And, you’re right, many physical scientists have not yet caught up but they shouldn’t be faulted for that.

We’re in the process of a new paradigm shift on a scale equivalent, if not greater, to that of the Copernican Revoultion. Growing pains can be difficult.

I invite you to read the works of two contemporary physicists who are also excellent writers: Brian Greene and Brian Swimme.
I found their books to be extremely informative and exciting.
Below are titles I particularly enjoyed and brief blurbs about them:

The Fabric of the Cosmos: space, time and the texture of reality
- by Brian Greene
- From Brian Greene, one of the world’s leading physicists, comes a grand tour of the universe that makes us look at reality in a completely different way.

The Fabric of the Cosmos is the second book on theoretical physics, cosmology and string theory written by Brian Greene, professor and co-director of Columbia's Institute for Strings, Cosmology, and Astroparticle Physics (ISCAP)

Greene guides us toward modern science’s new and deeper understanding of the universe. From Newton’s unchanging realm in which space and time are absolute, to Einstein’s fluid conception of spacetime, to quantum mechanics’ entangled arena where vastly distant objects can bridge their spatial separation to instantaneously coordinate their behavior or even undergo teleportation, Greene reveals our world to be very different from what common experience leads us to believe. Focusing on the enigma of time, Greene establishes that nothing in the laws of physics insists that it run in any particular direction and that “time’s arrow” is a relic of the universe’s condition at the moment of the big bang. And in explaining the big bang itself, Greene shows how recent cutting-edge developments in superstring and M-theory may reconcile the behavior of everything from the smallest particle to the largest black hole. This startling vision culminates in a vibrant eleven-dimensional “multiverse,” pulsating with ever-changing textures, where space and time themselves may dissolve into subtler, more fundamental entities.

The Elegant Universe - superstrings, hidden dimensions, and the quest for the ultimate theory
by Brian Greene


The Earth’s Imagination
by Brian Swimme

In The Earth's Imagination, cosmologist Brian Swimme places the human psyche within the fifteen billion year cosmic process in order to highlight the directions in which human consciousness is evolving today and into the future


The Universe Story : From the Primordial Flaring Forth to the Ecozoic Era--A Celebration of the Unfolding of the Cosmos
by Brian Swimme

From the big bang to the present and into the next millenium, The Universe Story unites science and the humanities in a dramatic exploration of the unfolding of the universe, humanity's evolving place in the cosmos, and the boundless possibilities for our future.


It has been some years since I read these books.
In typing up this list for you, I was amused to see that the subtitle of Swimme’s book on string theory, ‘The Elegant Universe’, includes mention of ‘hidden dimensions’—words that caused you unnecessary alarm in my previous email.

To date, physicists have proven the existence of 18 dimensions! I conjecture that future findings will reveal it doesn’t stop there!

Given your love of science and your inquiring mind, I think you will enjoy these leads. I hope so, anyway.

It’s an amazing time to be alive!

enigmaha


Enigmaha:
I see that you claim the mantle of scientific training, yet you express ideas that almost all physical scientists eschew so I wonder if I might respectfully ask what kind of science training you are referring to?
<p>
There are so many kinds of "science" claims now that it is hard to keep score. There is even "noetic science" whatever that might be (just religion in a new package so far I can tell).
<p>
"Remaining open minded" is often code for remaining ignorant of scientific knowledge. "Hidden dimensions to reality" sounds like a rejection of what has actually been discovered by science. I am quite surprised to hear this coming from someone claiming to have been trained in science. Unless the training failed to stick, or was rejected.
<p>
Thanks,
<br>

Sciguy
Chemist, PhD, Yale, 1966

[photolite]

Apparently you have an established relationship with Dixon that might bring some baggage into your and his dialogue. I'm only remarking upon your respective words posted here.

He didn't remark on your "celebrating" the rain with dance. He remarked on the suggestion you might "create" the rain with dance.

You state to him...
"You could drop a tiny bit of your atheism and lean toward Paganism a little bit more and you'd do just fine. Stop focusing so much on the seeming illogic of it all and see it as various methods of celebrating all the amazing mysteries of life instead of as an attempt to move the mysteries through anything other than changing ourselves."

But that statement contradicts itself. The intent and purpose of pagan ritual is to "move the mysteries" as you put it.

Your analogy of physicians with lead and mercury would be apt if physicians still treated patients as such. They don't.

I understand your position to be somewhat superstitious and void of science. Dixon's example as I understood it is that the Easter Islanders practiced a belief system necessarily void of scientific insight with catastrophic results. You have the benefit of 21st century knowledge at your disposal but suggest, in this instance at least, it's logical to choose to ignore it in favor of superstition.

"So a person who's working magic is attempting to cause an outcome, not necessarily by doing something ridiculous or illogical, but by working on whatever is necessary to enhance the probability of the outcome they wish for."

The "necessary" you refer to here I understand to be superstitious ritual.
If a physician today chose to ignore what we now know of treating humans with lead and mercury the results would also likely be catastrophic.

What I'm hearing from you is that you don't necessarily embrace paganism or any other ism to the exclusion of science but your words sometimes sound contradictory and defensive.

Photo


Dixon's analogy, that someone today, who is doing a dance to celebrate nature and it's processes (in particular, the gift of rain), is doing the same thing as Easter islanders deforesting an island to appease their "God" is idiotic. Sorry, I can't think of a better word to describe it. It read to me as an intended offense to me based on his wording and his quote of my words. Not sure how else to describe it.

A similar analogy is that all physicians are trying to poison their patients because George Washington's physicians killed him with lead and mercury treatments. Therefore all physicians are poisoners with no more knowledge than those of hundreds of years ago.

Yup, that's idiotic and I believe Dixon was being intentionally offensive.

As I said, I expect better of Dixon, who is somebody I know, like and respect.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

... He didn't remark on your "celebrating" the rain with dance. He remarked on the suggestion you might "create" the rain with dance. ...

Photo, who are you arguing with? I didn't suggest I might "create" rain with dance. It's not likely I would do a rain dance unless i knew it was going to rain the next day. Go back and read what I wrote. You've missed the point as badly as Dixon has.


... But that statement contradicts itself. The intent and purpose of pagan ritual is to "move the mysteries" as you put it. ...

Your analogy of physicians with lead and mercury would be apt if physicians still treated patients as such. They don't.

You're able to state the point but not see it. Try again.

-Jeff

[Jude Iam]

hi yawl. dixson schmixon, hi.
hey, doctors do still use mercury - vaccinations, filings - as well as loads of other toxic substances.
and yes, i too have had the pleasure of apparently doing successful weather-working, more than once. love it- how many times do we need to be taught: we are amazing beings with far greater brain- and other powers than we ever use. got to expand into it, however you choose to; argue for your limitations and you shall have them. whether you think you ca, or think you can - you're right.
just for fun, watch this video of the cutest brilliantest physicist in the world:
Edge 276 (https://www.edge.org/documents/archive/edge276.html#cox)
love, jude




Photo, who are you arguing with? I didn't suggest I might "create" rain with dance. It's not likely I would do a rain dance unless i knew it was going to rain the next day. Go back and read what I wrote. You've missed the point as badly as Dixon has.



You're able to state the point but not see it. Try again.

-Jeff

[Mallory]

[-]I didn't suggest[/-] I might "create" rain with dance. It's not likely I would do a rain dance unless i knew it was going to rain [-]the next day[/-].

-Jeff

Aha, I KNEW you were vexing my Berkeley bike rides by dancing... ((snapped incriminating Jeff rain dancing photo)) Naughty...naughty man...

[Dixon]

Dixon, you missed something. Rain is cause FOR dancing, praying and ritualizing. Timing could be before, during or after rain.

Au contraire, Jeff--I didn't miss a thing. I responded appropriately to Massage Maiden's very clear claim that rain was caused BY "dancing, affirming and praying". Your idea that rain is cause FOR dancing, praying and ritualizing is something I partly agree with, but irrelevant to the remarks I'd made.


You could drop a tiny bit of your atheism and lean toward Paganism a little bit more and you'd do just fine. Yes, I could do that, IF and only if someone can show me that such a change is reasonable. I'm no longer capable of simply deciding to believe something unless it really seems to be supported by the evidence, and I'm glad I've pretty much outgrown the capacity for such self-deception. The last time I bullshat myself into believing something without good evidence, the belief system was Christian fundamentalism, and that turned out disastrous. I learned my lesson about the folly of believing without real evidence. Have you?

I'm not hostile to dropping atheism and/or buying into Paganism, but that would require you or someone to show me that the atheist viewpoint is mistaken and/or the Pagan one is correct. I'm all ears; whip out the evidence. Since you've never been shy about using reason to critique others' beliefs, which you do often, I'm sure you wouldn't be so hypocritical as to ask me to accept your own fave beliefs without reasonable evidence.

Re: "Paganism"--I can't even begin to fairly assess the truth value of it unless you clarify what you mean when you suggest that I "lean toward Paganism". My limited knowledge of Paganism tells me that it's a congeries of different beliefs/practices, varying from Pagan to Pagan, that may include beliefs in such things as reincarnation, various supernatural entities, the Oneness of us with the Earth, herbal lore, various rituals, attempts to affect reality through magical workings, and who knows what else. Most of those things I don't believe in, but I'm happy to have you prove them to me, so if you really want me to "lean toward Paganism", feel free to explicate one claim at a time and the evidence for it.


Stop focusing so much on the seeming illogic of it all...Again, I'm a little unclear on what you're asking me for, Jeff. Are you saying that I should adopt some belief regardless of whether it's logical? I hope that's not what you're asking of me, because I'd hate to see you as the kind of guy who uses logic to critique others' beliefs while rejecting logical critique of his own. I hope I'm misunderstanding you and you're not a hypocrite after all.


...and see it as various methods of celebrating all the amazing mysteries of life instead of as an attempt to move the mysteries through anything other than changing ourselves.Again, Jeff, I was responding to claims that people were actually affecting the weather through dancing, praying, etc., NOT to "...various methods of celebrating all the amazing mysteries of life...". You seem to be confusing these two very different things.


Anodea Judith calls "Magic" probability enhancement. So a person who's working magic is attempting to cause an outcome, not necessarily by doing something ridiculous or illogical, but by working on whatever is necessary to enhance the probability of the outcome they wish for. All actions, "magical" or otherwise, which are intended to produce some result are attempts at probability enhancement, but I'm sure you'll agree that not all actions are effective at it. If you'd like to make a case for the effectiveness of any particular action for some specified purpose, go ahead.


I think very few rain dancers actually believe they're causing the rain.Are you unclear on the fact that at least a couple of folks on this thread DO actually believe that?


Demanding or pleading for gifts from the Gods is likely to be a disappointing task.

In my experience, many (most?) folks are often quite satisfied with the results of their prayers and other efforts at magical "probability enhancement" indulging themselves in whatever illogic is necessary to validate the desired belief. For instance, see posts 3, 4, 22 and 32 on this very thread.


However, if you wait for the forecast to predict rain tomorrow it's suddenly a great day to do a rain dance. LOL, yeah! Especially if you're charging someone for your shamanistic "services", or are just wanting to "validate" infantile power fantasies!

Blessings on ya;

Dixon

[Dixon]

[QUOTE]Probability enhancement is doing what's necessary to make your desire reality. In the case of rain, it could be called "getting your ducks in a row."

Jeff, your discussion of this issue is vaguer than your critiques of ideas you don't believe in, leaving me confused about what you're really saying. You seem to be referring to ways of actually increasing the probability of rain (not just celebrating). Are you? And if so, are you claiming effectiveness for seeding clouds with silver iodide, changing the climate through long-term strategies, praying, rain-dancing, ritualizing, or what?


The rain always comes. It depends on certain (weather) factors how long it takes for the rain dance to work.

Again, I'm confused. You seem to be contradicting yourself. Are you saying that rain-dancing "works" in the sense of increasing the probability of rain, or what?


Yes, I think most atheists live lives that are either "flat" (good word) or tense because it seems they're always ready to resist something.

As an avowed atheist, this statement is a button-pusher for me. My knee-jerk reaction is to feel insulted and be pissed off at you, but I want to be open-minded and fair, so I won't rule out the possibility that you have good evidence for what, in the absence of good evidence, would be a facile, pathologizing, even bigoted statement.

Both of you, Zeno and Jeff, commonly ask others for references to research or other good evidence for their claims, so I'm asking you for links to research that indicates that atheists' lives are "flat" (whatever the hell that means) and Jeff, please also support your characterization of us as "tense" and "always ready to resist something". If you can't direct me to good research, guys, perhaps you can at least make a logical case for your seemingly insulting claims about us atheists. If you can't do either, an apology would be gracefully accepted. Better yet, perhaps you could both do some introspection into this question: What emotional benefit do you get from fallaciously invalidating me and/or atheists in general through ad hominem attacks?

This characterization of atheists (i.e. me) as "always ready to resist something" is particularly intriguing, coming as it does from you Jeff, a guy who has expressed disagreement with--that is,resistance to--many many ideas here on Wacco. I guess if you disagree with someone, it's reasonable skepticism, but if someone has the temerity to disagree with you, they're "always ready to resist something", eh?

Blessings on ya;

Dixon

[Dixon]

Dixon, why so cynical...

Skeptical, yes. A bit sarcastic, okay. But cynical? I don't think I'd characterize myself as cynical. I don't think you'd characterize me as cynical either, if I took that tone toward something you don't believe in. Your characterization of my presumed attitude depends on whose ox is being gored, I think.


...and offensive?

Please note that "offensive" isn't a description of me; it's a description of your emotional reaction to my words (i.e. you were offended). In my experience, "offense" usually means someone is bothered by something even though it's harmless. Also, I've often noticed that being offended is a handy defense mechanism when people are rigidly defended around some issue; it allows them to fallaciously invalidate their critic rather than deal substantively with the criticism. As such, it may be a covert form of the ad hominem attack.


Did you have trouble understanding what I wrote?

Yes, as I've mentioned in my posts #34 and #35 on this thread, I've had trouble understanding several things you've said here. You've been uncharacteristically vague, confused and apparently even self-contradictory in this thread, creating a kind of smoke screen which leads me to surmise that you're rigidly defended around this issue, probably without being aware of it.


Your analogy is idiotic.

You wish.

See my response below to your post #27 on this thread.


I expect better of you.

Well, we've both been disappointed with each other in this and at least one other thread. That's OK; we'll work it out.

Cheers!

Dixon

[Dixon]

Dixon's analogy, that someone today, who is doing a dance to celebrate nature and it's processes (in particular, the gift of rain), is doing the same thing as Easter islanders deforesting an island to appease their "God" is idiotic. Sorry, I can't think of a better word to describe it.

Jeff, I hope that by now you realize that much of the heat of this dispute is caused by your confusion about this issue: I was NOT attacking anyone's "doing a dance to celebrate nature and it's [sic] processes"; I was attacking the explicit claims that people were CAUSING the rain by dancing, praying etc. If I were analogizing "doing a dance to celebrate" with "Easter Islanders deforesting an island", that would be idiotic, but I wasn't--get the message?

Sheesh!


It read to me as an intended offense to me based on his wording and his quote of my words. Jeff, why would I want to offend you, or anyone, for that matter? It's not about attacking you; it's about attacking a superstitious idea (presumed magical interventions and, more importantly, the underlying irrationality that continues to plague our poor little planet).


A similar analogy is that all physicians are trying to poison their patients because George Washington's physicians killed him with lead and mercury treatments. Therefore all physicians are poisoners with no more knowledge than those of hundreds of years ago.This analogy may be similar to the one you mistakenly thought I made (about CELEBRATING rain by dancing), but it's NOT similar to the one I actually made (about claims of CREATING rain by dancing). Do you understand that now?


As I said, I expect better of Dixon, who is somebody I know, like and respect.And of course, I like and respect you, and that won't change (not too much, at least) on the basis of philosophical disagreements!

See ya at the party tonight!

Luv;

Dixon

[Dixon]

Though I think maintaining a healthy skepticism about things has its merits, so does remaining open-minded...

You sound as if you think skepticism and open-mindedness are opposite or contradictory. If that's what you think, you don't understand either skepticism or open-mindedness.


I’m trained as a scientist...

You must have slept through most of the training, then! :thinking:

But seriously, I'd like to hear your answer to Sciguy's question about just what kind of "scientific" training you've had, because your post is jam-packed with the kind of hackneyed nostrums and fuzzy thinking I've heard a million times from New Agers who wouldn't know real science if it bit them on the ass. In fact, most of them are downright hostile to real science, while of course wanting to dignify their feel-good beliefs with the unearned mantle of "science".


...yet I have personally experienced a multitude of occurrences that defy ‘logical’ explanation...

Yeah, yeah--I used to believe that a lot of things defied logical explanation until I actually became open-minded enough to give the skeptics a chance to propose logical explanations! That begs the question: Have you really sought logical explanation for these things that you'd like to think defy it? Have you sought out opposing viewpoints and assessed them according to reasonable canons of logic? If you're like most "believers", you haven't.


...leaving not a shadow of a doubt that a ‘mystical’ element (something not yet explainable by science) was at play.

A few lines ago, you were touting open-mindedness, but now you're showing utter closed-mindedness by admitting that you haven't "a shadow of a doubt" about your interpretation of your experience. If you won't admit even a shadow of a doubt, you're closed-minded, Enigmaha. Again--typical New Age sewage: Assuming those who disagree with your beliefs lack open-mindedness, while showing no evidence of any open-mindedness yourself. "Open-mindedness" means agreeing with you, right?


Science is still in its infancy on many levels. Continued investigations into the realm of quantum physics will eventually turn our currently held notion of reality upside down (or, rather, inside-out). In fact, it has already begun to do this. What we presently attribute to the realm of the mystical may one day be able to be explained by science and potentially will then be more readily incorporated into our day-to-day awareness and approach to being alive.
Our individual and collective psyches and intentions do indeed influence outcomes, although to varying degrees. We are helping to shape ‘reality’ through our evolving consciousness and awareness.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa! Now you're just stringing together a litany of vague, unsupported, trite, feel-good New Age codswallop that we've all heard a thousand times. So you're a trained scientist, eh? ROTFLMFAO!


On more than one occasion, I have personally witnessed the weather being directly and dramatically affected by energy/emotions/vibrations being generated by humans—from dense fog being dissipated in a ring overhead of a circle of meditators to a single raincloud forming overhead in what was an otherwise cloudless sunny sky and raining on the person who called it in. This phenomenon was repeated that same day three different times.

Great! I look forward to your demonstrating this for me--especially if we can bet some cash on the outcome. When can we get together for this? I promise you that if you can demonstrate this kind of phenomenon for me, I'll publicly kiss your ass in front of the Sebastopol gazebo at high noon and sing your praises from the rooftops.

And again, please let us know what kind of scientific training you've had.

Cheers!

Dixon

[Dixon]

...and yes, i too have had the pleasure of apparently doing successful weather-working, more than once. love it-

As I said to Enigmaha in a previous post: I look forward to your demonstrating this for me--especially if we can bet some cash on the outcome. When can we get together for this? (Seriously!)


...we are amazing beings with far greater brain- and other powers than we ever use.

Do you mean like the power to use our brain logically and eschew fallacy, or are you thinking more of our brain's power to give us the illusions we desire?

Luv;

Dixon

[enigmaha]

Dixon, I replied to SciGuy privately and am happy to be shifting my attention to other things rather than this thread which has worn out its appeal for me.

I don't feel the need or desire to have to prove myself to you, nor to try to make you believe anything other than what you choose. My science background is legitimate and as solid as matter that is comprised mainly of empty space can be. Now, it is time to move on.

But, before I do, perhaps this is an apt time to confess that I'm actually a walk-in, who has come here to determine if there are any signs of intelligent life.

Ah! The mother ship is calling.

Beam me up, Scotty!

[Braggi]

Quote:
Probability enhancement is doing what's necessary to make your desire reality. In the case of rain, it could be called "getting your ducks in a row."



Jeff, your discussion of this issue is vaguer than your critiques of ideas you don't believe in, leaving me confused about what you're really saying. ...

Dixon, That was a joke! I should have put a :wink: to make that more clear I suppose.

We have no philosophical differences. My religion is based on science and experience. That's mine, personally. As you've mentioned, Paganism (specifically NeoPaganism) is a mish mash and is different for every Pagan you'd interview on the subject.

Just remember this: NeoPaganism is the religion that put the "R" back in celebRate! Most of us don't take it too seriously, though some certainly do. I'm in it for the celebration of all that is Nature and love and fertility and sexuality and ecstasy and all that good stuff. Have a mushroom!

I don't "believe" much of anything. I don't need to "prove" my "beliefs" because I don't have any. Sure, I make some assumptions that aren't completely grounded in knowledge, but I'm always willing to learn. I can't explain gravity, but I believe in it. Ya know?

And I am sorry I offended with my comments about atheists. My mental image of "Atheist" is someone on the radio railing about prayer in schools or "In God We Trust" on coins. I agree with them, but they work awful hard to just inflame people. Not sure that's so productive in a nation where nearly 60% believe Yaweh literally created us fully formed out of his Word.

It will take time to get "God" out of our government if it ever happens but my comments refer to that mental image of atheists. I was painting with too broad of a brush, kind of like you are with Pagans.

No, I don't believe a rain dance will cause rain. But I think rain is a fine thing to dance about.

-Jeff

[Valley Oak]

This thread is a treat!

I haven't enjoyed a thread as much as I have this one for a while. No real need to say anything because other folks on all sides said them for me but I do want to thank everyone because I appreciate this debate and the subject.

Thanks again,

Edward