Does anyone know the local leash laws?

[someguy]

Hey everybody,

Im going to be coming back to the area very soon with a dog buddy, and Ive been having all kinds of trouble finding out any local leash laws for Sonoma county/Santa Rosa area. This dog has lived on a wide open farm her whole life and if the law happens to be that you must have your dog on a leash at all times then does anyone happen to know of any exceptions to the rules, or just a place where we can let her run free? I would appreciate any kind, helpful responses. Thanks.

[quirkypixie]

This might help.
Dog Parks in Santa Rosa - Dog Friendly Parks in Sonoma County (https://santarosa.about.com/od/outings/a/DogParks.htm)


If in doubt, call animal control.

[Braggi]

... This dog has lived on a wide open farm her whole life and if the law happens to be that you must have your dog on a leash at all times then does anyone happen to know of any exceptions to the rules, or just a place where we can let her run free? ...

I appreciate that you want the best for your dog, however, I want to give you something else to think about. When my daughter was quite young she was chased down, knocked to the ground and repeatedly bitten by a vicious dog. Luckily she wasn't seriously injured. I don't know if that dog has ever been on a leash. It runs free all the time. Sadly, the dog still lives and is owned by one of my neighbors. As a result, my daughter is terrorized whenever she sees a dog running loose in her proximity. She assumes the worst and with good reason.

I don't know if your dog has had obedience training. Judging by your description I'll assume not because most people don't train their dogs and the notion that a dog has run free makes it sound like she's not used to being on a leash. Excuse me if that assumption is wrong, but allow me to continue assuming the general truth that most dogs running loose have not had obedience training.

You may have a very good dog, and it might never hurt anyone, but when my daughter sees your dog running around loose she will be frightened and assume your dog is ready to attack. So please, if you are taking your dog outside of your yard, put it on a leash. If your dog hasn't had obedience training, please enroll it and yourself immediately. Your dog will appreciate it. Dogs want to know they are doing the right thing.

In fact, if any dog owner reading this has an untrained dog, please sign up for training right away. It could save you and your dog a lot of trouble.

-Jeff

[someguy]

I appreciate that you want the best for your dog, however, I want to give you something else to think about. When my daughter was quite young she was chased down, knocked to the ground and repeatedly bitten by a vicious dog. Luckily she wasn't seriously injured. I don't know if that dog has ever been on a leash. It runs free all the time. Sadly, the dog still lives and is owned by one of my neighbors. As a result, my daughter is terrorized whenever she sees a dog running loose in her proximity. She assumes the worst and with good reason.

I don't know if your dog has had obedience training. Judging by your description I'll assume not because most people don't train their dogs and the notion that a dog has run free makes it sound like she's not used to being on a leash. Excuse me if that assumption is wrong, but allow me to continue assuming the general truth that most dogs running loose have not had obedience training.

You may have a very good dog, and it might never hurt anyone, but when my daughter sees your dog running around loose she will be frightened and assume your dog is ready to attack. So please, if you are taking your dog outside of your yard, put it on a leash. If your dog hasn't had obedience training, please enroll it and yourself immediately. Your dog will appreciate it. Dogs want to know they are doing the right thing.

In fact, if any dog owner reading this has an untrained dog, please sign up for training right away. It could save you and your dog a lot of trouble.

-Jeff

Hey Jeff,

Look, I completely understand your daughters situation and can sympathize with her emotions towards unleashed dogs. Thats terrible what happened. On the other hand, I feel that dogs are not meant to be on leashes and that dogs can be trained to respond to their owner without wearing a leash. I also think that people in general have a tendancy to take isolated incidents and live in fear of any future instances that may arise. If we live our lives in fear, and on walk eggshells, we're never gonna get anywhere.

I don't want to sound insensitive, and Im having trouble coming up with a sensitive way of saying this, but I feel that this mind set is being applied towards too many things in society. For example there are many people that believe that pitbulls should be outlawed because there are a few cases of pitbulls attacking people, but not all pitbulls are terrible and vicious, but rather that the owners are incompetant with the care of the dog. How far do we apply this concept? I would never want to put any person in danger, but this thought process could be applied in any case, such as rape. What if some girl was raped and has a perfectly legitimate fear of men? Are we to make laws that cater to that fear? Should we escort all men or women around to make sure that no women are ever terrified when they see a man?

Again, I understand why your daughter has a fear, and I dont want to offend you or her, but I would like to say that more laws and fear dont ever fix anything. Leash laws may be good for some people, but not all. And I do believe that personal responsibility and compassion for others goes along way. That of course goes along with what you were saying about training your dog with obedience courses. But we cant just be accomodating towards everyones fears and phobias, because everyones afraid of something and we cant outlaw everything. We should realize that dogs have inherant rights too which should include the ability to run free, at least in some situations.

Id just like to say that I am currently living in Argentina where every single day I see dozens upon dozens of dogs running free without any owners in sight. They cross the streets and look both ways before doing so. I have never seen an incident involving a person and a dog, and have yet to see a dog get hit by a car. It's interesting to see how smart dogs really are. And Jeff I really respect what you've said, and will consider that everytime I take my dog for a walk in California. Thanks for the reply. You rock.

Peace.

[Barbara]

Sonoma County does have leash laws, and mainly because of lifestock being attacked. If a dog is found running loose among sheep/cattle, the rancher is within the law to shoot the dog.

If your dog is used to being free, I suggest you drive to Dillon Beach where dogs are allowed to run free. PLEASE pick up after your dog, and if you see that some inconsiderate boob has not picked up after his/her dog(s), please do so out of respect for those who cherish this rare off leash beach.

There is also another off leash dog park in Petaluma called Rocky's Park. I believe you can find it on the internet if you research dog parks in that area. That particular park is 5 acres of mowed grass, fenced except for the entrance.

Good luck, and welcome back to Sonoma County!

[jesswolfe]

Another point of view, about boundaries. Dogs are pack animals. They do not like being without others in a pack. To live in a healthy dog pack, they need to have a pack leader who sets boundaries for their behavior. As humans, we need to be the pack leaders for our animals. Part of that is making sure they know the boundaries of how to behave around other humans and dogs. Being on a leash is a way to let them know what the boundaries are. Its not a horrible or abusive thing to have a dog on a leash. It doesn't make a dog less of a dog. Now that is not to say that dogs don't need some time to run free. Different dogs have different needs for exercise and having large outside spaces is important for some. But even that needs to be contained in boundaries.

I am a cat person but I find that watching the Dog Whisperer has been very interesting and informative, regarding handling boundaries for dogs and people. You questioned whether we should cater to the fears of people in our society by creating laws for them. The whole point of laws is to create boundaries to make sure that people, who do get afraid of things, are protected. If I am raped, I certainly think its appropriate and essential to have laws to govern behavior so I don't get raped again and so others don't get raped. If a dog bites a child, I sure as hell hope there are laws that will protect people from dogs who do bite. Those are healthy boundaries that are part of living in a community. Every community, be it human or animal, has boundaries that make living together more of a positive experience.

::climbing off soapbox::

Jess

[santarosie]

Jess, I liked what you had to say about setting boundaries and being a good leader for you dog, however, I take issue with your affirmation of the Dog Whisperers methods of dog training. His methods rely on domination and subordinating dogs via aggressive means. What this accomplishes is teaching dogs that when you are or seek to be the dominant animal in a situation it is OK to use aggressive tactics to gain control. That can often happen when dogs get around children because of the dynamics of their interactions (how kids behave with animals, their smaller size, their exuberance, etc). Positive reinforcement is the only humane and respectful way to train dogs to be good canine citizens. Clear communication and reward based approval direct them to do what we need them to in order to live peacefully within our communities. It requires patience, kindness, compassion, consistency, guidance, respect and love. Most importantly, it requires time spent instilling the good behavior and leading them to respect you as their guide, not fear of retribution from you. Although you see the appearance of a successfully trained dog on your TV, please remember that, as always, edited video footage, and a snapshot in time do not tell the whole and true story. The wisdom and experiences of thousands of dog trainers using positive training methods across the country to achieve desired dog behavior is of much greater value to understanding canine-human relationships. I highly recommend reading books by Pat Miller of the Peaceable Paws organization. Here's the website for more info:
Welcome to Peaceable Paws Dog & Puppy Training (https://www.peaceablepaws.com)

-Jill :pant:

[santarosie]

Jeff,
I am terribly sorry to hear about your daughters encounter with the loose dog, that is a truly scary experience for a child! And "get over it" just isn't gonna cut it to alleviate the fear she still carries around, and will probably carry around to some degree her whole life. I do hope though you are constantly and consistently working to introduce her to dogs that are trained, loving, and friendly in controlled environments. Because there will always be people who will let their dogs off leash where leash laws are in effect, or perhaps a dog who gets loose by accident, and it would be so much better for her if her fear in those situations could be minimized as she grows up.

(gettting on my soapbox:wink:)
I do believe that leash laws are important in both urban and rural environments, to protect people, dogs, and other animals. That is why dogs are required to be on leash in public spaces in Sonoma County. Even in most designated off-leash areas, it is required that the dog be under voice control at all times. That means you must be able to recall your dog immediately, when necessary. I always walk my dog on a leash. I consider it my responsibility to make sure that my dog doesn't unecessarily frighten anyone, or get into trouble. Although I know she wouldn't harm anyone (unless they were trying to harm me of course), she's big, and scary looking, and I don't want to cause anyone/anything anxiety or pain.

That being said, it is SOOO crucially important to provide dogs with opportunities to be off leash, to explore, to grow, to earn our trust, to interact with their environment and other dogs, and to fully work out their muscles and bodies for both physical and mental health. I've been to all of the dog parks in Sonoma County and some other open areas where it was OK to let my dog off leash without risk of her interacting with anyone who didn't desire it. There are at least a dozen wonderful spots I can recommend, and I'd be happy to do so if asked. Play time in your enclosed yard, play dates on others fenced property can also provide healthy time off for your canine friend. And training is a GREAT plan. It not only teaches you how to be the best leader for your dog, it forges a bond between you. Make sure the training methods are positive ones though (see previous post).

Oh, And while I'm up here, PLEASE people always clean up after your dogs. Us good dog owners don't like being made to look bad by the few lazy/pathetic ones who won't. :thumbsup:

-Jill

[Lisa]

This is an issue dear to my heart. I really appreciate all those who abide by the leash laws, for the reasons others have stated. Santarosie, I especially appreciate all that you shared.

As a dog lover, and previous pit-mix owner, I firmly believe in lots of positive training, always walking on leash, providing plenty of off-leash time in dog parks or off-leash beaches, etc. A point no one has mentioned is that many dogs while on-leash, can become defensive if an off-leash dog comes straight up to it. This is considered possible aggressive behavior in the dog-world. While walking my dog on leash, we were frequently approached by off-leash dogs whose owners (sorry) seemed pretty clueless. My dog was attacked twice by a loose dog whose owner swore, even after the attack, that their dog was behaving normally. I have to say that when I see an off-leash dog, I usually observe other signs that the dog is untrained and exhibiting signs of dominating behavior. I try to avoid them.

Maybe the all-dogs-run-free thing would work in a much less populated area, but not here. I know my relationship with my dog seemed to improve after training. I absolutely loved "spoiling" her in many ways, AND she seemed to prefer knowing what the rules of interaction were.

[MsTerry]

When my daughter was quite young she was chased down, knocked to the ground and repeatedly bitten by a vicious dog.

Sadly, the dog still lives and is owned by one of my neighbors
-Jeff

Jeff, there is something that I don't understand about your story.
After a dog attacks a human, especially a child, they are euthanized as a matter of course since they can't be trusted anymore.
What happened?

[MsTerry]

I feel that dogs are not meant to be on leashes and that dogs can be trained to respond to their owner without wearing a leash.
Do you have any idea how contradictory this statement is?
You want your dog to run free but you are in charge?
If dogs weren't meant to be on a leash, why are they meant to be dominated by humans?


I have never seen an incident involving a person and a dog, and have yet to see a dog get hit by a carI have never seen anyone being murdered in the US, therefore murders don't happen here!

[Braggi]

... I feel that dogs are not meant to be on leashes and that dogs can be trained to respond to their owner without wearing a leash. ... Leash laws may be good for some people, but not all. And I do believe that personal responsibility and compassion for others goes along way. That of course goes along with what you were saying about training your dog with obedience courses. But we cant just be accomodating towards everyones fears and phobias, because everyones afraid of something and we cant outlaw everything. We should realize that dogs have inherant rights too which should include the ability to run free, at least in some situations. ...

You're wrong. Dogs don't have inherent rights. Dog owners have responsibilities and one of those is to walk their dogs on leashes. Dogs are forbidden from running free in our society. I'm sure Wyoming has different laws, but here in Sonoma County, we have leash laws. Take your dog to a dog park to let it run without a leash or buy a property with a large fenced in area.

You are displaying the common attitude that "my dog is special" and need not be bound by the law. Interesting that most people that have this attitude also have the belief that their dog is such a good dog they need no training. I see that you avoid that topic when it comes to your dog. An untrained dog is a dangerous dog. Dogs of all breeds bite and most dogs that bite are untrained or are only trained to be agressive.


... For example there are many people that believe that pitbulls should be outlawed because there are a few cases of pitbulls attacking people, but not all pitbulls are terrible and vicious, but rather that the owners are incompetant with the care of the dog. How far do we apply this concept? ...

I had a neighbor who owned a "good" pit bull that never hurt anybody or anything. A friend came to spend the night with her and brought his pit bull so they could play together. They ran approximately two miles to a neighboring property, entered a corral where another neighbor had two miniature horses. These beautiful animals were bought for $600 each by the two young daughters of my neighbor, who saved their own money for two years. These girls took classes on how to care for their horses and did all the work involved in their care. I believe they were age 6 and 10 at the time. As my friends were driving home they witnessed one of their horses on the ground with its head nearly torn off. The other horse was under attack and later died of its injuries. The moral of the story is that there are no "good" pit bulls and there is no defense for the breed. They should all be sterilized and no more should be bred. I look forward to the day that law is passed internationally. Please don't write and tell me how good your pit bull is. I wont' be moved. There are other breeds. Pit bulls are killers. The breed was created to fight and kill. There is no justification for them. There are other breeds that fit this description.


... I would never want to put any person in danger, but this thought process could be applied in any case, such as rape. What if some girl was raped and has a perfectly legitimate fear of men? Are we to make laws that cater to that fear? Should we escort all men or women around to make sure that no women are ever terrified when they see a man?

Again, I understand why your daughter has a fear, and I dont want to offend you or her, but I would like to say that more laws and fear dont ever fix anything. Leash laws may be good for some people, but not all. ...

You hint at a good point that women should be well trained to defend themselves for their own self confidence as well as protection. In that light my daughter is taking martial arts training and she is a natural. She loves it and has her sights set on a black belt. She will want to become an instructor at some point, I'm fairly sure. Should she ever be attacked by dog or man she will be able to defend herself. You should certainly keep your dog on a leash if you come to Sonoma County. It won't be safe for your dog if it runs loose.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Jeff, there is something that I don't understand about your story.
After a dog attacks a human, especially a child, they are euthanized as a matter of course since they can't be trusted anymore.
What happened?

The dog was in a fenced yard where it always stays. My wife and daughter entered the yard to use the phone because of a car break down. Although the neighbors were home and present, the dog attacked Freya. Since the injuries were mostly emotional, we didn't report the incident. Thankfully, that horrible dog is very old now and probably won't live much longer. He's bitten many people. On another occasion, he tried to bite me and got a well deserved kick in the head. It didn't make him any smarter.

-Jeff

[someguy]

Do you have any idea how contradictory this statement is?
You want your dog to run free but you are in charge?
If dogs weren't meant to be on a leash, why are they meant to be dominated by humans?
I have never seen anyone being murdered in the US, therefore murders don't happen here!

Yes i can be in charge of my dog, and let it off a leash. that is not contradictory in any way, shape or form. The fact that people think this is contradictory shows that people have no idea how dogs function in nature. Dogs are naturally pack animals and follow a leader. There are no leashes involved and yet they still follow the leader.

well you may have never seen a person killed but youre not living in a city surrounded by murderers. I live in a city full of free running dogs everywhere. You'd think I would have heard of or seen a dog fight/aggressive incident/something that proves that dogs are inherantly aggressive and need to be kept on leashes..... people here also care about their citizens and children and if there were high rates of incidents involving aggressive dogs they would surely take action to prevent this. it is simply not the case.

Please dont say that because you dont see murders that murders dont happen because you hear about them all the time. Thats not what i was saying and that is extremly rude of you to allude that. Shame on you.

[someguy]

You're wrong. Dogs don't have inherent rights. Dog owners have responsibilities and one of those is to walk their dogs on leashes. Dogs are forbidden from running free in our society. I'm sure Wyoming has different laws, but here in Sonoma County, we have leash laws. Take your dog to a dog park to let it run without a leash or buy a property with a large fenced in area.

You are displaying the common attitude that "my dog is special" and need not be bound by the law. Interesting that most people that have this attitude also have the belief that their dog is such a good dog they need no training. I see that you avoid that topic when it comes to your dog. An untrained dog is a dangerous dog. Dogs of all breeds bite and most dogs that bite are untrained or are only trained to be agressive.



I had a neighbor who owned a "good" pit bull that never hurt anybody or anything. A friend came to spend the night with her and brought his pit bull so they could play together. They ran approximately two miles to a neighboring property, entered a corral where another neighbor had two miniature horses. These beautiful animals were bought for $600 each by the two young daughters of my neighbor, who saved their own money for two years. These girls took classes on how to care for their horses and did all the work involved in their care. I believe they were age 6 and 10 at the time. As my friends were driving home they witnessed one of their horses on the ground with its head nearly torn off. The other horse was under attack and later died of its injuries. The moral of the story is that there are no "good" pit bulls and there is no defense for the breed. They should all be sterilized and no more should be bred. I look forward to the day that law is passed internationally. Please don't write and tell me how good your pit bull is. I wont' be moved. There are other breeds. Pit bulls are killers. The breed was created to fight and kill. There is no justification for them. There are other breeds that fit this description.



You hint at a good point that women should be well trained to defend themselves for their own self confidence as well as protection. In that light my daughter is taking martial arts training and she is a natural. She loves it and has her sights set on a black belt. She will want to become an instructor at some point, I'm fairly sure. Should she ever be attacked by dog or man she will be able to defend herself. You should certainly keep your dog on a leash if you come to Sonoma County. It won't be safe for your dog if it runs loose.

-Jeff


Jeff I am shocked as to how closed minded you are being! First of all I did acknowledge your suggestion to get obediance training. If you would re-read my post you would see that. I hope that was just a mistake. But I do get the feeling that this is a sore spot for you and that you are offended by my views and not taking me seriously. I would really like to have a thoughtful intelligent discussion with you about this where we could both consider each others views without resorting to childish BS.

First, dogs don't have inherant rights? Do people have inherant rights? Or is it just what government dictates our rights are? How about people who smoke pot, do they not inherantly have the right to choose what they put in their body? And why dont dogs have inherant rights? I think they do. I dont think any person or entity can dictate INHERANT RIGHTS that are dictated by nature. And if youll read my next post that I took a lot of time to put together you'll see that I am not making up these rights for dogs, but that they simply exist by themselves.

Ok I never said my dog is special. Not only did I not say that but I have no idea what I could have said that displayed that attitude to you. I dont think only my dog should be unleashed but all dogs.

And why is it that when people on wacco disagree they get very defensive and rude. It really bothers me how whenever I try to bring something up that is controversial, I get jumped on and treated like a total asshole for expressing my beliefs. I was never disrespectful towards you or your daughter, and made sure several times to express how hard I was trying to be sensitive with my words. It seems like people are only respectful when they agree about things. That doesn't seem so "conscious" to me. And I would like to think that people would have some respect and dignity when on a concious community board, but I guess not.

Please read carefully my next post. I will prove that an untrained dog is not a dangerous dog. Or rather that human intervention, or at least in the USA, creates more of a problem than it solves. And dude, Id really like you and I to talk this out.


Oh and I cannot believe that you would rejoice in the day that an entire breed would be wiped off the earth becasue you personally have a problem with pit bulls. That is not a healthy perspective, in my opinion. This type of thinking leads to terrible atrocities such as genocide in humans. IN fact if you were alluding to a particular type of person this would be considered an extremly discriminative and hateful perspective. Please reconsider.


And in your last paragraph what are you trying to say? Especially in the last sentences. Are you gonna kill my dog if I let it loose? Thats really what I get from that. Your tone is way outta line.

[Sylph]

Hi Someguy,
Welcome, and thanks for trying to find out what the rules are. I live out in the country and some neighbors have dogs that 'run free'. Well, one I can think of, that is a mellow, sweet dog and likes to visit the neighbors occasionally. Other dogs, like mine, are 'free' behind fences. When I take one of mine for a walk, I use a leash and the leash does not damper my dog's absolute ecstasy for getting to go on a walk.
My sympathies for Freya. My daughter was knocked down and bitten by a rottweiler when she was a little girl. She still loves dogs, but has a gut fear of rottweilers; another breed with the capability of inflicting a bad wound. All dogs may bite, but some have such powerful jaws that the bite is going to be serious. Yes, many pitbulls and rotties are sweet and beloved pets, but I would be glad if they stopped being bred.
I remember the dogs in Hyde Park, in London, walking with their owners without leashes. It was wonderful to see them, not always "heeling", running fore and aft, but totally in tune with their people. I don't think that happens without training, though.

[someguy]

Okay...I realize that this has gotten way off topic but I now feel obligated to speak on this newly raised issue. First of all, I can't help but feel offended by jesswolfe's comments to me which were insinuating that I don't think there should be laws on rape. My point is simply that we have to evaluate how far as a society we want to go to accomodate every single fear that people may have towards anything, be it rape, leash laws, legalizing marijuana, or riding a bicycle on the sidewalk. It's not like there shouldn't be laws to prevent crime that involves victims, but when we ciminalize an action that is not inherently dangerous to anyone, it goes too far, in my opinion.

For example, a woman who has been raped in the past may have a fear of men. If she were to encounter a man on a deserted street after dark, it might make her afraid. That's understandable, but just because this man strikes fear into her heart does not mean that he is doing anything wrong, or that his actions are inherently dangerous. I think very few people would think that this man shouldn't be able to walk late at night just because he "might" accost somebody. So why is it different for dogs? Why do we in the USA feel that dogs are inherently dangerous, and must be leashed or contained all the time. I know for a fact that humans and dogs can coexist peacefully without leashes and the same goes with dog on dog :)

As I said before, I live in Argentina. Not in a small town, but in a city of 120,000 people, with probably 100,000 dogs. Dogs are free to roam, scrounge for food, form packs, and do as they please without human intervention. It is not uncommon to see a pack of six or more dogs, many of them large, roaming the streets. These are not wild dogs, they belong to owners who let them run free all day long. No one is ever intimidated or even thinks twice about it. The dogs are well behaved, they look before crossing the street, they dont jump up on you or display any aggressive behavior. Children walk around unaccompanied and could easily be mauled by a pack of these dogs, but it never ever seems to happen. I have never heard of or seen an incident involving a dog and a human. I believe I have established that dogs are not inherently aggressive. So then, why all the caution and fear of dogs in the US?

I think that this is a great example in which the law actually creates the problem. Of course, keeping any living creature subdued will cause an equal and opposite effect. We should re-think the way we treat our animals. If dogs seem inherently dangerous to us, then we really need to think about what makes them that way, since they clearly are not dangerous in nature, when left to their own devices. I think it's pretty much common sense that if you keep a dog confined, it will try to run away any chance it gets. If you keep your dog from having social contact with other dogs, it won't know how to act when it does encounter another dog on the street, and it could become agressive and/or hurt. If we insist on keeping our dogs from having the real experience of being a dog, then we have to realize that they will sometimes react in unpredictable, even violent, ways.

A great example of this is a dog named Pelu that belongs to some friends of mine in Argentina. Pelu, unlike the vast majority of dogs here, is kept in a tiny dog run 24/7. He never receives attention or gets any exercise, or has any contact with other dogs. When we realized this situation, we felt bad for the dog and began taking him on regular leashed walks.

On these walks, Pelu displayed extreme overexcitement around other dogs. This often provoked an aggressive reaction from them. He clearly didn't understand how dogs normally communicate. Most dogs, when they encounter a strange dog on the street, will put their tail down to show submission. The dog that has the tail up is establishing that he is the dominant one. With this system, the vast majority of incidents are avoided. Pelu, on the other hand, had no clue, and would run up to other dogs wagging his tail in excitement. Other dogs took this as a sign that he was invading their territory, often creating a hostile situation.

Pelu, never having had a chance to run free, was clearly desperate to have independence. He would pull on the leash, and it was all we could do to keep him under control. He would run up to little children, wanting to jump on them. Interestingly, none of the children ever ran away in fear. In fact, many people would come up and want to pet him because he's very fluffy.

The point I am trying to make here is the incredible difference between the behavior of Pelu and that of the average dog running free on the streets here in Argentina. Other dogs are markedly calm. They mind their own business and do not display agressive behaviors towards humans. Any aggression between dogs is easily taken care of with the tail system of dominance. The street dogs never get excited. Often when I go to eat at a sidewalk cafe, there will be several dogs sitting between the tables, patiently waiting to eat the crumbs that fall. This is in marked contrast to many house dogs in the United States, who jump up on the table to steal their owner's food.

If there is one thing that I hope people will gain from this post, it is the realization that the status quo is not always correct. Before I came to Argentina, I probably would have agreed with many of your thoughts about dogs and aggression. But now that I've gained another perspective on this subject, I can see that the problems with dogs in the United States are being caused by people's fears and misconceptions about dogs. Dogs are not inherently dangerous.

Just as a note, I want to let you know that when I come to Sonoma County, I will certainly abide by the leash laws, but continue to speak out in favor of a more practical policy.

[Braggi]

... when I come to Sonoma County, I will certainly abide by the leash laws, but continue to speak out in favor of a more practical policy.

Sounds both good and fair. For the record, I've had no intention to come off as rude or offensive. I'm just trying to state my position and support why I feel the way I do. And yes, I did mean to suggest that if your dog attacks my daughter, she, like a baby rattlesnake, will unleash all the venom she possesses, and the likely result is that you'll have a dead dog. Even when she is a master of her art, I doubt she would hold back if a dog had his fangs sunk into her leg. I certainly wouldn't. I hope that as she gains mastery of herself she also develops the mastery of her environment that goes with the territory. I know that most dogs respect that.

Dogs rarely attack a self confident person. My daughter has the burden of her experiences (more than the one I've described) working against her. Hopefully her martial arts training will give her the kind of confidence that dogs respect. Even then, some dogs have no respect of any kind, and will attack if given the opportunity. It doesn't matter if the fault is with the owner. A danger is a danger. Chance favors the prepared person and laws exist to protect the innocent.

Someguy, I do appreciate your perspective and generally I agree with you. The plan breaks down when you get to specifics and individuals. That's why we have laws in general and leash laws in particular. It's not a punishment of the many for the crimes of the few, it's for the protection of all against the chance that an owner is irresponsible. In the case of dogs, I think the number of irresponsible owners is vast. I know because I've seen them many times. On a positive note, I think in recent years, the number of responsible owners I've seen in public with their dogs is way up, so the future looks better to me than the past.

Welcome back to Sonoma County. I do appreciate well behaved dogs and responsible dog owners.

-Jeff

[PeriodThree]

First, dogs don't have inherant rights? Do people have inherant rights?

...
Are you gonna kill my dog if I let it loose? Thats really what I get from that. Your tone is way outta line.


Exactly, Dogs don't have inherent rights, people do.

I love my dogs. But if your dogs get loose and come near me or my children in a way which makes me fearful (and _I_ decide what makes me fearful) than I have the absolute right to kill them.

[Sylph]

First of all, I think animals do have the inherent right to be treated humanely. They don't have the same rights (to freedom and such) as humans, however.
I appreciate that Someguy has seen the dogs roaming freely in Argentina without incident. This does not mean they don't cause problems. Why should the fundamental nature of dogs be different in Argentina? They can be inherently aggressive at times. He just hasn't personally witnessed any attacks.
In Tierra del Fuego and probably in other areas, roaming dogs are considered a problem and bite people. I think we are simply more conscious of the potential problems here and are doing more to prevent them.

Fine Against Street Dogs in Tierra del Fuego, Argentina (https://www.network.bestfriends.org/latin_america/news/16910.html)


As I said before, I live in Argentina. Not in a small town, but in a city of 120,000 people, with probably 100,000 dogs. Dogs are free to roam, scrounge for food, form packs, and do as they please without human intervention. It is not uncommon to see a pack of six or more dogs, many of them large, roaming the streets. These are not wild dogs, they belong to owners who let them run free all day long. No one is ever intimidated or even thinks twice about it. The dogs are well behaved, they look before crossing the street, they dont jump up on you or display any aggressive behavior. Children walk around unaccompanied and could easily be mauled by a pack of these dogs, but it never ever seems to happen. I have never heard of or seen an incident involving a dog and a human. I believe I have established that dogs are not inherently aggressive. So then, why all the caution and fear of dogs in the US?

[MsTerry]

Yes i can be in charge of my dog, and let it off a leash. that is not contradictory in any way, shape or form. The fact that people think this is contradictory shows that people have no idea how dogs function in nature. Dogs are naturally pack animals and follow a leader. There are no leashes involved and yet they still follow the leader.

The fact that you want the dog to be free and you want to be the master is a contradiction.

well you may have never seen a person killed but youre not living in a city surrounded by murderers. I live in a city full of free running dogs everywhere. You'd think I would have heard of or seen a dog fight/aggressive incident/something that proves that dogs are inherantly aggressive and need to be kept on leashes..... people here also care about their citizens and children and if there were high rates of incidents involving aggressive dogs they would surely take action to prevent this. it is simply not the case. Are you saying that you are able to distinguish a murderer from a non-murderer just on mere sight?
Humans are predators and most of them kill their food before they eat it.


Please dont say that because you dont see murders that murders dont happen because you hear about them all the time.You just said that I was NOT living in a city surrounded by murderers :hmmm:


Thats not what i was saying and that is extremly rude of you to allude that. Shame on you
Quite frankly, your tone is rude and aggressive

[MsTerry]

As I said before, I live in Argentina. Not in a small town, but in a city of 120,000 people, with probably 100,000 dogs. Dogs are free to roam,

Really?
If this is true, I predict that your town next year will have an additional 20.000 dogs.
Oh and by the way, who cleans up after these well behaved dogs?
Or are we to surmise that they go home to use the bathroom?

[MsTerry]

Jeff, I am disappointed in you.
In fact I think it's irresponsible to NOT report that dog especially since he has bitten more people than just your daughter.


The dog was in a fenced yard where it always stays. My wife and daughter entered the yard to use the phone because of a car break down. Although the neighbors were home and present, the dog attacked Freya. Since the injuries were mostly emotional, we didn't report the incident. Thankfully, that horrible dog is very old now and probably won't live much longer. He's bitten many people. On another occasion, he tried to bite me and got a well deserved kick in the head. It didn't make him any smarter.

-Jeff

[Lisa]

[quote=someguy;83936]

Someguy,

I just wanted to thank you for your perspective on dog behavior where you currently live, and for your considerate manner. You have not convinced me that off-leash dogs are the way to go, but you have made me curious to check up on this more. Perhaps you could do a little documentary on this before you move to SoCo? What do you say to the news item that another member linked in, about dog bites from free roaming dogs in a city in Argentina? And is there a clean-up problem? A feral population problem?

And thank you for your temperate attitude towards pits. I love shelter dogs, and many happen to have some pit in them. I devoted myself to my dog's training and management, and that was a big deal, and I don't think people should own pits who aren't prepared to do that. Personally, I would prefer that back-yard breeders cease to breed pits. But, if bred with great conscientiousness, I believe the aggressiveness could be bred out of them in a relatively short time and that we could then enjoy all their other absolutely wonderful qualities.

And, welcome to Sonoma County.

[SteveMiller]

Dogs must be on-leash anywhere in Sonoma County, other than your private yard or a public designated-off-leash dog park.

Many of the Marin County Open Space District lands allow off-leash roaming if the dog is under voice command--subject to interpretation, of course.

This has obviously touched a nerve--indeed, I believe the owners should be safely tethered to a dog at all times in public--I had a run-in today at the wildlife preserve that reinforced that. Again.

Good luck.

s


Hey everybody,

Im going to be coming back to the area very soon with a dog buddy, and Ive been having all kinds of trouble finding out any local leash laws for Sonoma county/Santa Rosa area. This dog has lived on a wide open farm her whole life and if the law happens to be that you must have your dog on a leash at all times then does anyone happen to know of any exceptions to the rules, or just a place where we can let her run free? I would appreciate any kind, helpful responses. Thanks.

[someguy]

The fact that you want the dog to be free and you want to be the master is a contradiction.Are you saying that you are able to distinguish a murderer from a non-murderer just on mere sight?
Humans are predators and most of them kill their food before they eat it.
You just said that I was NOT living in a city surrounded by murderers :hmmm:

Quite frankly, your tone is rude and aggressive


ok this is the last time Ill respond to you. you cannot compare murderers to dogs. first of all a dog knows of no consequences if it were to kill a human. they would do it in plain sight without regard of laws. murderers generally would hide it, maybe thats why you dont see murders happen all the time. maybe if humans didnt know of any laws against murder, you would see it happen much more frequently.

i would compare the freedom and master thing to a child and parent. you would never keep a child on a leash. the child is free to roam as they please but when a parent says come here the child does as it is told, or else there are consequences. the same logic applies. it is not contradictory to be in charge and give someone else freedom. ultimatly the child/dog has the freedom to choose what they want to do, and either way there are consequences.

i have not been rude to you at all. you are sarcastic and condescending towards me in every post youve made. just because i point out your rudeness does not make me rude.

and the people here do clean there sidewalks and front yards on a very regular basis. the city is surprisingly clean, and free of dog shit. Buenos Aires is another story. and i havent read the Tierra Del Fuego article yet but will sometime later today. for now i have to go.

[someguy]

So I just read the Tierra del Fuego article posted above. I find it very interesting the contrast between what is being said in that short article and the situation here in San Rafael, Argentina. I dont want to dismiss it either. But all I know is the situation here and in Buenos Aires where dogs are commonly out and about on the streets, with apparently no problems. I will look into the Tierra del Fuego situation further, but for now, something about the article seems a bit fishy. Plus for the record I talked to a local today about this whole wacco thread and he found it be pretty ridiculous how people are responding to me. He says that throughout his whole life here in San Rafael, he hasnt heard of any dog bite incident or anything like it. So it sounds a lot different than Tierra del Fuego. I cant say why there seems to be such a difference as I have never been there, but I will investigate this further and try to talk to locals who have been there or who have heard of this situation. Later.

[MsTerry]

ok this is the last time Ill respond to you. you cannot compare murders to dogs. .
I never did.

maybe if humans didnt know of any laws against murder, you would see it happen much more frequently.
Interesting point of view.



i would compare the freedom and master thing to a child and parent. you would never keep a child on a leash. the child is free to roam as they please but when a parent says come here the child does as it is told, or else there are consequences. the same logic applies. it is not contradictory to be in charge and give someone else freedom. ultimatly the child/dog has the freedom to choose what they want to do, and either way there are consequences.
If you want to compare a dog to a child, then you must be training your dogs to eventually became the master themselves.
Just like a child will grow up to become independent.


you are sarcastic towards me in every post youve made. just because i point out your rudeness does not make me rude.
Sarcasm and rudeness are two different things


and the people here do clean there sidewalks and front yards on a very regular basis. the city is surprisingly clean, and free of dog shit. Buenos Aires is another story. and i havent read the Tierra Del Fuego article yet but will sometime later today. for now i have to go
That is quite a success story. Considering that in a few years they will have more dogs than people living there, they will need all the help they can get.
In San Rafael, CA we have considerably less dogs, but we still have a poop problem

[ChristineL]

Some guy, let me give you a different perspective. I have two wonderful canine companions and five house cats...I love animals and advocate for them through a pet column I write for a local paper. The following are incidents that took place in my neighborhood in just the last two years. Let me specify my neighborhood is in the hills of Guerneville amidst the redwoods and in surface would equal about ten to twelve square city blocks.

1) -My next door neighbor's cat (an ultra-friendly Manx mix) required surgery to heal several puncture wounds left by someone's roaming dog that grabbed and shook him.

2) Four dogs that were continuously left in their yard 24/7 tearing a neighbor's pet cat to pieces in front of her. The dogs became a pack and kept escaping together. They once threatened myself and my larger dog...Thank God, I was very close to my front door.

3) My ex-room-mate's dog being bitten (while on a leash) by an off-leash dog whose owner kept saying..."don't worry, he's very friendly".

4) Another neighbor's dog being attacked on two occasions by off leash dogs, both times severely enough to require a trip to the vet.

5) Someone's wandering large dog threatening my elderly mother on our own property.

6) Lastly, I have a friend whose child is in a wheel-chair. She was walking with the child and his large aid-dog. A large dog attacked her dog, knocked over the wheel chair while the juveniles the other dogs was with looked on.

I'm sorry, I love dogs...but I will report any dog and owner to Animal Control if the dog is off leash, wandering on his/her own and is not totally and immediately friendly. And yes, I have returned many a lost friendly escapee to his owner.

On the other hand, and I can hear the hostile responses already, I believe children should be themselves taught how to behave around animals. For example to expect a dog, who is restrained on a leash, to do nothing when a small child runs over and pokes him hard and purposely in the eye is not right. This happened to a friend of mine, luckily, enough witnesses told the authorities the mother was completely ignoring what her kid was doing, along with the fact that the kid was being deliberately mean, to save her dog's life.

All people, no matter what age, should always ask the owner before descending on a dog they do not know. Both my dogs are ultra friendly, but my big dog does get anxious when people just descend on his head. He won't bite, but he shouldn't be subjected to something that makes him uncomfortable when it's so easy to avoid it.

[MsTerry]

In order to qualify for a HO policy, AAA asks besides the usual Q's about your home, also if you have a trampoline, if you are within 1000 feet of a fire hydrant and if you own " a Rottweiler, Pit Bull, Doberman, Chow, Akita, Presa Canario, Wolf-hybrid or any other dangerous animal"

[ChristineL]

I guess my killer Bichon doesn't count and neither does "Oh My God is it a cat" (my impresivelly large long haired cat). What has truly surprised me in terms of home insurance is they'll ask those questions, as well as inspect the house to verify it's value...but they go ahead and insure fire hazards. Had AAA told us the various problems around our house, we would have taken care of them sooner. I did not know Bay trees were so dangerous. There is a house across the road from me that has so much shrubery, bay trees, and dead plant matter around it, I worry their barbecue will let off sparks one day and there goes the whole neighborhood. Another neighbor has a huge Douglas Fir that drops lots of branches on her roof, her neighbor's roof, and both their yards. Watching that tree in a wind storm is frightening. Should it fall, it takes at least three houses with it, as well as the water tower should it fall in that direction. Sorry to digress from the original thread, this is one of my pet pieves as is the fact that if your car passes smog, it can have no horn, bad brakes, etc. and it will still be insured and registered.



In order to qualify for a HO policy, AAA asks besides the usual Q's about your home, also if you have a trampoline, if you are within 1000 feet of a fire hydrant and if you own " a Rottweiler, Pit Bull, Doberman, Chow, Akita, Presa Canario, Wolf-hybrid or any other dangerous animal"