Time for a merge?

[petermargolies]

Once upon a time there was just one wacco bb. Then came the crash of '05. Now we have wacco-bb and waccoBB. Is there really a reason to have both? Neither is a real business venture, each maintains the same virtual west county community (for the most part), since most people who belong to one, belong to the other. The only difference as far as I can tell is wacco-bb is run theough Yahoo and waccoBB (no hyphen) is west county's only and run through Barry Chertov, who was the moderator before the '05 crash.
What I propose is this:
1. Members of wacco-bb who haven't already done so consider joining waccoBB.
2. Once a waccoBB member, consider discontinuing postings on wacco-bb.
3. See how this all works out for you.
The primary benefit, as far as I can see would be to eliminate the duplicate service and cut the amount of e-mail that piles up in our boxes.
If there's a downside to not running this bulletin board through Yahoo, what would that be?

[AnnaLisaW]

Thanks for letting those of us on the Yahoo BB know about WaccoBB. I was disappointed with the Yahoo board. This is what I was looking for. It feels warmer and it's easier to use. :thumbsup:

[Karen]

This site is vastly superior to the yahoo group format. Glad you're here!:)


Thanks for letting those of us on the Yahoo BB know about WaccoBB. I was disappointed with the Yahoo board. This is what I was looking for. It feels warmer and it's easier to use. :thumbsup:

[Barry]

Welcome Storm Dancer!:welcome:
So glad you made it! I am working to make this the most useful, friendliest, most powerful and flexible way to connect with the West County progressive community!

Public replies are welcome here if you think they may be of interest to other people.
Please help spread the word by using this Tell a friend about WaccoBB.net! (https://sendmessage.php?do=sendtofriend&refer=1)

Thanks for letting those of us on the Yahoo BB know about WaccoBB. I was disappointed with the Yahoo board. This is what I was looking for. It feels warmer and it's easier to use. :thumbsup:

[ingo]

Here is why I think the Wacco-bb group at https://groups.yahoo.com/group/wacco-bb should continue to thrive:

1) Wacco-bb (https://groups.yahoo.com/group/wacco-bb) at yahoo is moderated by 6 moderators who discuss and vote on any issue concerning the bulletin board. Here, Barry chooses unilaterally what he likes to have posted and makes frequently the choice to change, edit, or even erase posts that he feels need alteration.

2) Wacco-bb (https://groups.yahoo.com/group/wacco-bb) at yahoo is free and will remain a free community service. Barry has more than once stated that he wants waccobb.net to be his business venture with charges imposed on posts that promote businesses or events that acquire revenues. While I have no opposition to him doing that here (once he has enough members to enforce that), I like to know that there will still be a resource for our small community to post freely.

3) Wacco-bb (https://groups.yahoo.com/group/wacco-bb/) remains an outlet purely for local resources, events, and announcements. Personal commentaries are diverted to other resources eg this board or wacco-talk (https://groups.yahoo.com/group/wacco-talk/). In other words, not much chatter - just facts, which some of us really like.

This is why I think the "split" makes sense to me. I hope this post will not be altered.
Ingo

[petermargolies]

This for the info. I was just curious why people felt the need for both




This site is vastly superior to the yahoo group format. Glad you're here!:)

[Barry]

Welcome back, Ingo. First, let me say that I have not altered your post in any way. I also want to say that I did not instigate Peter's Time for a Merge post. It pains me that there are two Waccos, and my hope is that one day the two Waccos will merge, however now is not the time. This site is still maturing, both in technology and in culture. When the time comes, I will invite you to merge Wacco-bb with WaccoBB.net and join me in moderating this site. I think there will be much to be gained for the community as a whole. Let me explain some of the reasons why I think WaccoBB.net will make a better home for the West County progressive community.

First, let me address your points:

1) Wacco-bb at yahoo is moderated by 6 moderators who discuss and vote on any issue concerning the bulletin board. Here, Barry chooses unilaterally what he likes to have posted and makes frequently the choice to change, edit, or even erase posts that he feels need alteration. Yes, its true that sometimes I alter posts. I am nurturing this new community and I am trying to set a good precedent for how it should be used. There are many times I will fix a formatting problem or add a hot link or remove an extended quote of a previous email. And yes, when you cut and pasted a very long article about kombucha into the General Community category, I replaced it with a link to the webpage. And yes, I deleted your post of a message from another list that explicitly requested that it not be posted on Wacco. I stand by that decision. I want to make this a safe and respectful place and some times that means deleting a message, just as you have done at wacco-bb.

I have already invited our members to join me in moderating this service and I look forward to working with whoever feels called to help out.


2) Wacco-bb at yahoo is free and will remain a free community service. Barry has more than once stated that he wants waccobb.net to be his business venture with charges imposed on posts that promote businesses or events that acquire revenues. While I have no opposition to him doing that here (once he has enough members to enforce that), I like to know that there will still be a resource for our small community to post freely.
Yes, its true that my intention to ask people who use WaccoBB.net to advertise their business to have a commercial membership of $10/month, however no one will be turned away for lack of funds so this community resource will remain accessible to all. By asking for a small contribution, I hope to be able to devoted significant time and money to making this site serve our members and the community in the best way possible, without corporate advertising. WaccoBB.net will remain free for all non-commercial and community use, including selling your own stuff, housing, and passing along notice of events.


3) Wacco-bb remains an outlet purely for local resources, events, and announcements. Personal commentaries are diverted to other resources eg this board or wacco-talk. In other words, not much chatter - just facts, which some of us really like.Yes, Wacco-bb is just the facts. My vision for WaccoBB.net is to have more of a friendly public forum, so if one of the facts starts a conversation it is free to continue, while giving users the power to easily tune out of the conversation whenever they like. I will also seamlessly move active conversations to the WaccoTalk category including leaving a link behind so that user's preferences for following discussions will be automatically applied. I believe community discussion can be quite enlightening and helps create a true community of individuals, rather than just being an information dispersal mechanism.

But not only can discussion flourish naturally here, this format can also cut down on some unnecessary posts. Since users have the ability to edit and delete their posts, they can edit their post to correct any problems or say that the item has been sold, etc. rather than having to re-post again. And we don't have the persistent Yahoogroup problem of people replying to the digest and thus posting the whole digest over again as one post.

Now let me list a few additional reasons why i think this service will eventually make a better home for Wacco.

1) WaccoBB.net has no corporate ties and no corporate advertising. While Yahoo! started out to be one of the good guys, they are turning out to be just another corporation that:



plays ball with oppressive regimes and our own oppressive government by turning over supposedly private information
automatically signs you up for spam unless you dig deep to find the key to turn it off
tracks your path through the internet after you leave the site
plasters corporate ads and popups all over their site - after all, that's what they are about: delivering eyeballs to their corporate advertisers.
While the values of our community are to shop locally and avoid corporate control and exploitation, does it really make sense to host our community on a "big box" corporate website?

2) Who knows when Yahoo! will decide to pull the plug on Wacco-bb, like they did to the old WaccoBB Yahoogroup. There have been many groups that have been summarily shutdown by Yahoo! without a word of warning, including one of the other groups that originally sprung up in WaccoBB's wake.

3) WaccoBB.net gives users choice in what categories of information they want to receive and what they don't want to receive. This will become more important as our membership and posting volume continues to grow. At the moment, the category subscription interface is a bit awkward, but it will be much more user friendly as the site matures.

4) The WaccoBB Digest gives users easy access to go to any message they are interested in seeing without scrolling forever. This is just the beginning of convenient features I will be adding to the system!

So for now, Wacco-bb and WaccoBB.net have their place. But in the long term, I think the community will be best served by having just one Wacco and I think WaccoBB.net will be the best choice!

Barry

[ingo]

Barry;
I know how much work and finances you are putting into this as an investment that hopefully will pay you back eventually, and I can appreciate this.

Nonetheless, you have and are still choosing to claim ownership of the wacco-community, like your ad at Yahoo (https://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Original_and_Largest_WACCO_group/) illustrates. You know that I do not agree with that. The "Wacco-community" goes beyond you, and it should go beyond any one individual, to remain a true community service as it was intended by its original founders. Whatever you do here, can not rightfully be claimed as the old Wacco group, but your own venture derived from it.

The fate of the old Recyclegroup is a good example for what can happen if one person takes to much pride and ownership in a community service.

So what happens if you suddenly do not feel like holding it up anymore? If it does not make the money you wished for, and you do not feel like paying server fees anymore? This site is solely dependent on your financial and energy input. While corporate, the Yahoogroups will always continue to exist (as long as yahoo does not fold) if some people in the community will take responsibility for the upkeep.

You said that:

Who knows when Yahoo! will decide to pull the plug on Wacco-bb, like they did to the old WaccoBB Yahoogroup. There have been many groups that have been summarily shutdown by Yahoo! without a word of warning, including one of the other groups that originally sprung up in WaccoBB's wake.
Well, to be correct, by now we know that some people complained to Yahoo about some things that happened back then at the "old waccobb", and Yahoo closed down all sites run by you. That was very unfortunate, but also understandable since Yahoo stated in its Terms of Services what they consider not acceptable.

At wacco-bb, the moderators are keeping a current e-mail list backup, to be able to reassemble the group immediately in case of a shutdown, which is not really expected.

I have nothing negative to say about your site, Barry. It is a good site. I also know that this site takes much more effort to uphold than the Yahoogroups, where we (the moderators there), on average only have to put in a few minutes a day. Nonetheless, I urge you to stay with the facts, and base your business marketing soley on what you have to offer here.

RE censorship, I have my disagreements, but opt to let it go, since waccobb.net is yours, and you can do whatever you want to do here. Some will join you, and some won't, and that is ok.

Sincerely Yours,
Ingo

[Barry]

Since I was one of the first members of the original WaCCO group (member 41, I believe), let me fill you in on some history, Ingo. Denise Meier started WaCCO as a service to the then small dance community. There was much "talk" on the group between members as well as sharing information. Denise ran the group in the community's interest, yet she has bristled at the notion that somehow it was "the community's group" after she put in countless hours to keep it running. Denise was the owner and the only moderator. She then passed ownership of the group off to me.

I continued to run and evolve the group in the community's interest for years, overseeing the change from a warm group of friends that danced together into the large west county institution that it became including instituting formal guidelines and splitting the group up into several groups to try to compensate for Yahoo!'s lack of category support and the ever growing member base.

WaccoBB.net is just the next step in that evolution. I believe this format will provide the flexibility to allow the group to continue to grow and give users more control over how they interact with it and at the same time bring back the warmth and true community feel that was present at the beginning.

Granted its a big change, and some people will need time and support to get used to it. There is more work to be done to make it even easier to use and to make full use of the potential that is here. I'm glad that Wacco-bb is there for people who prefer the old format. Old habits die hard. However I think once this site matures that it will be clear that this format is best suited for the needs of our growing community.

And regarding asking for the financial support of the community, the Godmother of the group, Pam LaCoe/Astarte who hosted the dance, asked for the same $10/month contribution to support her efforts in holding the group space. I will ask the same support to hold this group space, but only from the members who use the group for their own financial benefit (ie advertising their business).

My dedicaton to this group runs long and deep and people know that. I will not shut it down. Should the time come that I need to move on, I pledge to hand off the group to some one who is willing to lead the group and uphold its values.

I think it is important that every group has a leader. And its quite clear that you are the leader of wacco-bb, even though there are other moderators. A leader helps set the tone for the group. I have always stood for people being respectful of each other and I must say I have not appreciated your veiled attacks of me here (kingdom, censorship, complaints).

I hope our two groups can live at peace for the time being.

Barry

[ingo]

I think it is important that every group has a leader. And its quite clear that you are the leader of wacco-bb, even though there are other moderators.
I think the concept of "one leader" is out-of-date. You see what is happening in our one-leader nation. I truly believe that the colaboration of many is what carries over wisdom and keeps impulsive (re)actions under control. Thus, I do not see myself as a leader at wacco-bb, but as someone helping to maintain the ground structure for a community-lead network.


A leader helps set the tone for the group. I have always stood for people being respectful of each other and I must say I have not appreciated your veiled attacks of me here (kingdom, censorship, complaints).
My, what you called "veiled attacks" is my, Ingo's, personal feedback to statements you made, Barry, that I believe are not fully presented in the light of truth. You have heard this same feedback from several different people by now, but is seems that you are standing firm on your perspective. That's fine, just don't mind me if I don't accept you as my "leader."


I hope our two groups can live at peace for the time being.
I don't see why not? To me, this is not a "war," but simply a disagreement between Barry and Ingo. I would never consider to put out negative vibes against you there. To me, the listserves are both simply valuable resources for the community. Waccobb.net has been referenced in the user guidelines as well as in the homepage of wacco-bb all along. People will choose what they like to use, and that is how it should be. As long as people use wacco-bb, it will continue to exist, and I hope the same for waccobb.net.

Have a nice weekend...
Ingo

[tomcat]

This will probably work itself out naturally as people make the choice for themselves which site they like better.

Most things of interest are double posted at this point and most people are aware of the existance of both groups.

WaccoBB has an advantage that the yahoo group does not... The yahoo group is what it is and cannot be changed much, but WaccoBB has a dedicated person at the helm who can build this site, change it for the better, add things people want...it keeps getting better and better. Yahoo just stays the same, and there may be some people who like that format better. If you want to sell something, you'll have to go where the most people are, or post in both places.

I am getting close to disconnecting from the old yahoo groups. I have just kept up with them to make sure I was not missing anything, but there has not been anything new there for a long time and I'm getting tired of viewing most of the 'for sale' stuff twice.

Choice is a good thing.
Tom

[Richardo]

Barry,

Where do we start? I was sure you weren't actually altering people's posts as I was hearing and here I see it in your own words! 'Yes, its true that sometimes I alter posts ' Just to give the right feel?

You have clearly stated on an ongoing basis that this is indeed a business venture. That is one of the reasons that you wanted to switch over from Yahoo! Groups in the first place, because you could not 'charge' for the use of a Yahoo! group.
It was noted that one of the first questions that you asked of the folks selling the software that this Waccobb.net(tm) is run on, was 'is there a way to bill users for it's use?'.)
That is an ok model and very few mind you trying to make a living off it but there are more than enough people in this community who have the talent and energy to 'moderate' a list such as this. (Like we need much moderation?) If you and Denise spent anywhere near the amount of time you repeatedly claim to have spent on the Yahoo! group then you were way over moderating. Wacco-BB is running well under just such volunteer basis.


As Peter found out that it feels more like a messy divorce, with staunch supporters of Barry following you and staunch supporters of a free and unedited community sticking with what was (and is) working well for them at Yahoo!.

The main difference between the two systems as I see it is that the Yahoo! group Wacco-BB is free for all to use and is 'governed' by communty volunteers while WaccoBB.net(tm) is run by Barry, and if he doesn't like it, it doesn't happen.

Barry is the OWNER of WaccoBB.net
Ingo offers Wacco-BB to the community, to use as it was intended to be.
There is a difference.

I can't believe you still feel to be a victim of Yahoo!
Can you site any site that has gone down from content alone? As I understand the history of it, one of your Yahoo! accounts was terminated and we therefore lost all of the groups that were associated with that account, WaccoBB and WaccoReader being amoung them. WaccoTalk was registered under a different account and it remained active.

Come on. If they shut us down on content they would have taken WaccoTalk down FIRST.
You were told that your account was terminated for a breach of the terms of service. You had openly called for compensation for operating a Yahoo! Group which was clearly in violation of the terms of service. Who is the victim?

We didn't get a vote on this behavior, though many people had warned you of the impending trouble and we all lost in the end.

In addition, if you were spending all that time to run the Wacco system (and even somewhat being compensated for doing so) then I would assume that some of that time would have been spent on some form of backup of the user list (at least) as well as the files and compilations in case of any such glitch in the system.

Yahoo! offers their infrastructure for our use for free but they clearly make no warranty of the content. That is our responsiblity and we were told everything was being taken care of.... (Sound familiar?)
It was a valuable resource. I am sure many would have taken it upon themselves to back things up if they weren't under the assumption that it was being administrated from the 'top'.

Ingo came in with Wacco-BB to fill the void when you dropped the Yahoo! ball. You could have set up something in the interim if 'holding a space' was truly your top priority. Bob then came back in later with WaccoBB when he noticed that that name had become available again. I would agree that there could be some consolidation of the two Yahoo! groups. Wacco-BB being the dominant one, is the obvious choice (tho Bob holds the preferred name...<grin>).

Remember, this was and is the West County Community Online, not Barry's World. You need your income and your supporters but we need to be free! Just look where you are, Home of the Brave, Land of the Free.

I don't find this site or your methods attractive but I do support your right to try.

If it's important enough, folks will post it on both venues. They are two different worlds with two totally different feels to them.

As long as you hold on tightly to being the 41st Wacco, Ingo and his like will always find a place in the hearts and inboxes of Waccos.

Let's keep our eye on the politics in Washington and try not to get too wrapped up in the politics of 'ownership' of our own community resources here at home! We need all the cooperation we can get.

Good luck to us all.
Richard


Since I was one of the first members of the original WaCCO group (member 41, I believe), let me fill you in on some history, Ingo.
.....
My dedicaton to this group runs long and deep and people know that. I will not shut it down. Should the time come that I need to move on, I pledge to hand off the group to some one who is willing to lead the group and uphold its values.
.....</grin>

[Barry]

Welcome to WaccoBB.net, Ricardo (AKA Benevolent Dick). Gosh, where do we start? Well, first I must confess that I altered your post! I added a close quote tag at the end of your snipped quote of my post so it would display correctly, and then removed some of the blank lines between your post and the quote. Pretty sneaky, huh?

I may have "staunch supporters", Richard, but none so loyal as you are a detractor!

Yes, this is a business venture for me and I apologize for not correcting Peter's mis-statement otherwise sooner. I missed it, believe or not! As you have said, I have stated that clearly in the past.

<!--><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/> </v:formulas> <v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/> <o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/> </v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:26.4pt; height:15pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:/DOCUME~1/Barry/LOCALS~1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.gif" o:href="https://www.waccobb.net/forums/images/NewSmilies/duck.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]--> Believe me, if I were in it for the money, I wouldn't be doing this. It's a dubious business proposition! I'm doing this on the basis of "follow your bliss" and "do what you love and the money will follow". I really like doing this, even dealing with members such as you!:duck:I have seen what a big difference it makes in the world and I find that very fulfilling. I want to be able to spend more time and energy making this bigger and better and still feed my family! I figure if I can get 10% of the value that this list creates for people I should do OK.

My intention is to share the benefits of a list like this with more of the progressive community and still have it be not overwhelming. And I think there is alot more that can be done to make this even more useful and fun!

It is ironic that you should be raising such a big stink about that I am the owner of Waccobb.net and if I don't like something it doesn't happen, Dick, when one of your recent posts to Wacco-BB, along with several others, were deleted from the Wacco-BB website! Meanwhile your less than complementary post about me and this service remains here for all to see.


I can't believe you still feel to be a victim of Yahoo! I don't feel I am a victim of Yahoo! I feel we are all victims of some person or persons who were so incensed that I asked for [i]voluntary donations for my time in running WaccoBB that they reported it to Yahoo! and pulled the carpet out from everybody. And that wasn't something that we voted on nor was it voluntary.

For the record, there was a post-WaccoBB group, I think it was called WackyWaccoTalk or something like that, that was shut down based on content because someone posted a joke that Yahoo! found offensive. No money was involved. Big Brother is watching...


Well, to be correct, by now we know that some people complained to YahooApparently Ingo knows who did it but isn't telling and that person (or persons) isn't taking the responsibility for their action.


You could have set up something in the interim if 'holding a space' was truly your top priority.Hey, that's what i did! I just took the opportunity to create a better space! One with local control and lots of flexibility!

By the way, here's bit more of that story: Just before Yahoo! pulled the plug, I was in protracted and strident private email exchange with a user who at first wouldn't would only identify himself as "X" but who later revealed himself to be Peter Van Gorder, who made it very clear that he and people he knew would raise a royal fuss if I tried to move WaccoBB over to this site as I had proposed. I finally decided I wasn't up for that public battle and decided I was not going to try to move it. It was just hours later that Yahoo! pulled the plug! Since WaccoBB was now gone, I decided to create something new, and in my opinion, better to takes its place.

There's still more work to be done here before I get it to where I want it, so I'm glad that Wacco-BB exists for those who prefer the old format. However I look forward to the day when everybody can be just on one site.

Barry
<o:p></o:p>

[ingo]

In regards to your comment:


one of your recent posts to Wacco-BB, along with several others, were deleted from the Wacco-BB website!
<o:p></o:p>

The user guidelines of wacco-bb (https://groups.yahoo.com/group/wacco-bb/) currently state:

"This is a Sonoma West County Community Online Bulletin Board for the posting of <b><blink> LOCAL</blink></b> events, announcements, sales, and wants, <b><blink>ONLY</blink></b>. Please do not post non-local business advertisement, politics, jokes, opinions or personal discussions here. "

After asking that the discussions should continue at wacco-talk or at waccobb.net, the "views" of people actually reading the discussion posts here,as well as the minute amount of people joining wacco-talk (https://groups.yahoo.com/group/wacco-talk/) to engage, seems to suggest that the proportional interest is not too high in that discussion.

I took it on to delete the discussion posts emerging around Peter's post (except for the original post) to keep wacco-bb focused and non-judgemental. Now I see that that might have not been the best idea. Previous moderatorship seemed to have chosen to place people on moderation or ban them upon violation, which I find a bit too authoritarian.

I just raised the question to the fellow wacco-bb moderators to determine how to deal with future discussions emerging at wacco-bb. An update will find itself soon in the user guidelines.

Yours,
Ingo

[Karen]

Dear Waccoites,

If we have learned anything from the loss of the original wacco I hope it was that we NEED more than one communication tool at our disposal..

Multiple networks make the community stronger in the event of another problem in the future. Like my Volvo, with two braking systems, if one goes out, I have a back up.

What if Yahoo finds a post objectionable and pulls the plug?

What if they become political activists (which they already are)?

What if Barry suddenly becomes a monk and disappears into the hills?

If something happens to one wacco, how wonderful to have the other there, up and running. Haven't we learned the hard way that it is risky to entrust communication to only one site?

Let's not talk about rivalry or disposing of one of the waccos. We are stronger with 2 waccos. :hugs:

Sincerely,
Karen

[Dixon]

We are stronger with 2 waccos. And more redundant.
And more redundant.
And more redundant.
And more redundant.
And more redundant.
And more redundant.
And more redundant.
And more redundant.
--Dixon
--Dixon
--Dixon

[Karen]

read both, but post to only one.


And more redundant.
And more redundant.
And more redundant.
And more redundant.
And more redundant.
And more redundant.
And more redundant.
And more redundant.
--Dixon
--Dixon
--Dixon

[Barry]

After asking that the discussions should continue at wacco-talk or at waccobb.net, the "views" of people actually reading the discussion posts here,as well as the minute amount of people joining wacco-talk (https://groups.yahoo.com/group/wacco-talk/) to engage, seems to suggest that the proportional interest is not too high in that discussionI don't know about that! At the moment its been viewed 223 times here. Sounds like alot of people are interested - but far from all. That's why I like this format where people are free to respond and free to say they are interested or not interested in a particular topic.

Previous moderatorship seemed to have chosen to place people on moderation or ban them upon violation, which I find a bit too authoritarian. There you go attacking me again. Its not very nice, Ingo. I don't recall attacking you. We are both moderating our sites. Part of moderating is having a finger on what gets said and what doesn't, especially with a Yahoogroup where discussion can break out and get be quite difficult to stop. You chose to delete posts that were outside your guidelines. I only deleted posts if they were particularly offensive to someone, aside from me, of course. You are running a list with less than 1,200 people; I was running it for over 3,000. I only banned spammers and I only had 2 or 3 people on moderation, who repeatedly violated the guidelines, and they screamed bloody murder (ie censorship) and you insist on carrying on that drumbeat.

[tomcat]

Sometimes It takes too much of my time to keep up with both boards, therefore I hope that folks will... POST to BOTH, so that I only have to READ ONE.

Having them BOTH going is fine for me. Some may like the format of one or the other best and having a choice is good. I like the format of this board best so I am going read this one regularly and just check in with the Yahoo! boards once in a while.
I hope that everyone on the Yahoo! boards will realize that a lot of us are doing this and post on both boards.
Tom



read both, but post to only one.

[bobafifi]

I finally decided I wasn't up for that public battle and decided I was not going to try to move it. It was just hours later that Yahoo! pulled the plug!

As I recall Barry, you decided AFTER Yahoo! pulled the plug, NOT before:

[July, 13, 2005]
"I know there are those among you that suspect I
just shut it down (et tu Maddy?), but that is not
the case. I WOULD NEVER DREAM OF DOING THAT
without an extensive community discussion. What's
more I am leaning towards not even proposing
that."
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/WaccoTalk/message/3214


[July, 14, 2005]
"Let me wrap up one bit of business before I
leave town:
I will NOT be asking that WaccoBB be changed in
any way in regard to the new website I am
considering launching."
https://groups.yahoo.com/group/WaccoTalk/message/3262


-Bob

[Barry]

As I recall Barry, you decided AFTER Yahoo! pulled the plug, NOT before:Like I said, it was only HOURS (like one or two!) after I had decided that Yahoo! pulled the plug. What happened is that when I woke up that morning, I knew I couldn't go forward with asking the Yahoo group to move. With a big decision like that, I give myself a little leeway before announcing it to the world, because I know people like you will be holding me to it.

[bobafifi]

Like I said, it was only HOURS (like one or two!) after I had decided that Yahoo! pulled the plug. What happened is that when I woke up that morning, I knew I couldn't go forward with asking the Yahoo group to move. With a big decision like that, I give myself a little leeway before announcing it to the world, because I know people like you will be holding me to it.

Sorry, I'm not following the logic here. As I understand the chain events, Yahoo! pulled the plug and locked you out. You couldn't move the group even if you wanted to because it no longer existed, right? Then you went on WaccoTalk and said that you'd changed your mind on moving the group.

-Bob

[ingo]

I don't know about that! At the moment its been viewed 223 times here. Sounds like alot of people are interested
You know as well as I do that 223 views do not present 223 members, Barry, since that ticker ticks for every hit of that thread. I, myself, probably added 10+ views to that number just by following the discussion and replying.

With that in mind, 223 views are not a whole lot in proportion to your 1500 members. Just for the sake of the argument...


For the record, there was a post-WaccoBB group, I think it was called WackyWaccoTalk or something like that, that was shut down based on content because someone posted a joke that Yahoo! found offensive. No money was involved. Big Brother is watching...
Some members at Creepy_Waccotalk posted sexually and otherwise inappropriate materials (pictures etc) on a site that was accessible to all ages. Let's stay with the facts...


There you go attacking me again. Its not very nice, Ingo.
Sorry you are feeling so attacked, Barry. I have no intention to scrutinize you as a bad guy. Own your shared responsibility in situations and own that you are not Super-Barry, and you might find that you'll be left alone.

Ingo

[bobafifi]

Also Barry, if as you say you had already decided not to move the group, then how is it possible you could still be "leaning towards" not moving it on July 13th - after Yahoo! had pulled it? The timeline just doesn't add up, sorry.

-Bob

[Barry]

Also Barry, if as you say you had already decided not to move the group, then how is it possible you could still be "leaning towards" not moving it on July 13th - after Yahoo! had pulled it? The timeline just doesn't add up, sorry. Like I said, I wanted to give myself some time before I announced it to the group. I announced it the following day.

[Barry]

Some members at Creepy_Waccotalk posted sexually and otherwise inappropriate materials (pictures etc) on a site that was accessible to all ages. Let's stay with the facts...Sorry, I didn't know what actually happened. But whatever it was, Yahoo didn't like it, and they just pulled the plug, no warning, no discussion, etc.


Sorry you are feeling so attacked, Barry. I have no intention to scrutinize you as a bad guy. Own your shared responsibility in situations and own that you are not Super-Barry, and you might find that you'll be left alone.I guess I have a shared responsibility for the demise of the WaccoBB YahooGroup. I didn't think Yahoo! would mind if I asked for voluntary contributions while still providing the service to everyone. There are tons of free sites out there with requests to make a donation to support the site. And I certainly didn't expect someone to complain about it to Yahoo! I would have expected that they would not send me a check! And even if Yahoo! were alerted to this, I would have expected for them to issue a warning rather than just pull the plug.

(Not-Super) Barry

[Karen]

Tom,
You can have them both sent to your email, so you don't have to chase two boards down. If you post to two, you are creating the repetition some don't like. Post to one, read both. It takes no more time to read both, except when there is repetition. And on Barry's site, if you don't want to read the for sale ads, or the rentals you don't have to get them, or any other section, so over time, hours are saved there.



Sometimes It takes too much of my time to keep up with both boards, therefore I hope that folks will... POST to BOTH, so that I only have to READ ONE.

Having them BOTH going is fine for me. Some may like the format of one or the other best and having a choice is good. I like the format of this board best so I am going read this one regularly and just check in with the Yahoo! boards once in a while.
I hope that everyone on the Yahoo! boards will realize that a lot of us are doing this and post on both boards.
Tom

[tomcat]

Karen, Yes, I have been having the digests from both boards pluss the TALK boards sent to my e-mail and it was too much repetition, so now I just have the digest from here sent to my e-mail. It's a lot easier and I don't have all the repetition from reading both. I just wanted people to know that if they only post on one, they may be missing lots of eyeballs.
I appreciate your helpful tone.
I am getting really tired of some of the nasty and repetative finger pointing going on here about this subject.
If there is nothing new, can we move on and try to discuss how we can make this all work out better for the community, please.
Tom


Tom,
You can have them both sent to your email, so you don't have to chase two boards down. If you post to two, you are creating the repetition some don't like. Post to one, read both. It takes no more time to read both, except when there is repetition. And on Barry's site, if you don't want to read the for sale ads, or the rentals you don't have to get them, or any other section, so over time, hours are saved there.

[bobafifi]

Like I said, I wanted to give myself some time before I announced it to the group. I announced it the following day.

Sorry Barry, the evidence just doesn't support that. Rather it supports that you only decided to NOT move the group after Yahoo! had already terminated it. Up until then, you had been offering different scenarios as to how you WERE going to move the group - first you were going to put it up to a vote, then you were going to require the Yahoo! group to change it's name, then you were not going to have a vote etc. I don't recall you ever mentioning not moving the group until it was too late to do so.

-Bob

[Karen]

Sorry Barry, the evidence just doesn't support that. Rather it supports that you only decided to NOT move the group after Yahoo! had already terminated it. Up until then, you had been offering different scenarios as to how you WERE going to move the group - first you were going to put it up to a vote, then you were going to require the Yahoo! group to change it's name, then you were not going to have a vote etc. I don't recall you ever mentioning not moving the group until it was too late to do so.

-Bob


I recall it Bob. Some of us were using wacco.net beta version, trying to work out bugs. Everyone was using waccoyahoo until it was decided it would support life. We can count our lucky stars Barry had been working on the other wacco when yahoo was sabotaged. (Conspiracy theory: we should be looking at the anti-GMO organizing as a reason to wipe out waccoyahoo. Who ever did it, they found a reason to give yahoo an excuse to end it over asking for donations, over posting porno or whatever. Please question the loss, the situation and the timing. We know yahoo has been collaborating in repression of political dissent in other countries.)

Why is this issue so important to you? I don't know why you are belaboring this point, or even what your point is. Your attempt to vilify Barry and cast him a schemeing chronic liar isn't a pleasant thing to read and seems pointlessly destructive. If that's your thing kindly do it somewhere else. If I were Barry, I don't know if you'd still be posting here. But Barry is a lot nicer than I am.

[bobafifi]

Why is this issue so important to you?

Because I prefer fact over fiction.

Regards.

-Bob

[bobafifi]

Your attempt to vilify Barry and cast him a schemeing chronic liar isn't a pleasant thing to read and seems pointlessly destructive.

I'm doing no such thing. If that's how you see it, that's your problem.

Regards.

-Bob

[Dixon]

Bob
I'm not clear on all the details here, so I may be off-base, but it doesn't look to me like you've logically established that Barry's version of the story isn't true. The fact that he hadn't yet publicly announced it before Yahoo pulled the plug certainly does NOT necessarily mean that he hadn't made the decision yet. Have I missed some piece of evidence that debunks Barry's version of the story, or am I right in thinking that you haven't really ruled out the hypothesis that his story is accurate?
I have no idea whether his story is true (and I'm not sure I care a whole lot), but unless you can make a logical case that really rules out his explanation, I think the prudent course is to give him the benefit of the doubt, just as you or I would want.
So, if there is some bit of evidence that debunks his explanation, could you briefly explicate it for dunderheads like me who couldn't quite grasp all the details of this courtroom drama?
If you can't make a pretty solid case for ruling out his explanation but are still attached to your negative assertions, understand that that makes it appear that you're awfully anxious to vilify this guy, just as Karen is suggesting.
Regards;
Dixon


I'm doing no such thing. If that's how you see it, that's your problem.

Regards.

-Bob

[bobafifi]

So, if there is some bit of evidence that debunks his explanation, could you briefly explicate it for dunderheads like me who couldn't quite grasp all the details of this courtroom drama?
see
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showpost.php?p=7183&postcount=20
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showpost.php?p=7188&postcount=24

Regards.

-Bob