The Financial Collapse hits home!

[Barry]

Hey Everybody,

The financial collapse got very real for me today when I found out that my real estate line of credit has been canceled! Not only that, they tripled the minimum monthly payment on my outstanding balance! I couldn't believe it!

I hope between friends and family I can find some credit if I need it, because I doubt I'll be able to qualify for a new credit line even after this fiasco gets sorted out (unless WaccoBB.n gets a lot more profitable).

I imagine many people don't have access to non-bank credit. Something like this could easily push them into bankruptcy or having to sell their home, especially in these tight times. This is huge!

So first off, if any of you have a line of credit that you think you might want to use, you may want to consider pulling some money out just to have it handy if you need it.

Has anybody else had their credit line canceled or experienced and other effects of the credit crisis first hand?

[MsTerry]

A friend of mine had her line of credit canceled for being late with her payment for one day.
They are looking for excuses, so watch out!

[amywt]

Yes, we too have had our HELOC reduced 3 times now due to dropping property values and no fault of our own. The most insidious part of it is that the bank notifies you of the reduction in limit a week after they do it. This resulted in our bouncing a check with the IRS-I won't even get started on that story! Yes, this crisis has hit home and keeps knocking. Good luck to everyone!


Hey Everybody,

The financial collapse got very real for me today when I found out that my real estate line of credit has been canceled! Not only that, they tripled the minimum monthly payment on my outstanding balance! I couldn't believe it!

I hope between friends and family I can find some credit if I need it, because I doubt I'll be able to qualify for a new credit line even after this fiasco gets sorted out (unless WaccoBB.n gets a lot more profitable).

I imagine many people don't have access to non-bank credit. Something like this could easily push them into bankruptcy or having to sell their home, especially in these tight times. This is huge!

So first off, if any of you have a line of credit that you think you might want to use, you may want to consider pulling some money out just to have it handy if you need it.

Has anybody else had their credit line canceled or experienced and other effects of the credit crisis first hand?

[shellebelle]

Yes, we just spoke to the banks two Fridays ago two different banks after my primary clients personal line of credit was pulled (it wasn't being used - no lates - nothing like that just was sitting) and we were informed the banks are talking that within a short time the business lines sitting unused will be pulled and others lowered.

Reasoning --

Lowers their "outstanding" loans.

makes sense they need to look more solvent. Less loan crazed.

[Photoguy]

I think pulling any unsecured credit out in the form of cash is a very good idea right now if you are going to save it for the emergencies which we all will surely face this year. To pull secured credit on a house you may have to sell could be very disastrous if you are not planning on bankruptcy. If you are planning on bankruptcy then you have to be careful you are not committing fraud. To invest in real estate right now is just INSANE! This is a real collapse and it is just beginning. People may think I am an alarmist nut, but I guarantee that housing still has a long way to drop, even here.

[Photoguy]

Please read these two articles.
Red Alert: Major Meltdown Imminent! Your Escape … | Money and Markets: Free Investment Email Newsletter (https://www.moneyandmarkets.com/red-alert-major-meltdown-imminent-your-escape-29835)

Lawyer Kelly’s Blawg (https://lawyerkelly.wordpress.com/)

[[email protected]]

This is anther reason to consider supporting our LOCAL economy with CASH instead of credit. By purchasing goods - with CASH - from local vendors, we keep money in our own communities rather than sending credit card fees and interest payments into the hands of banks who could care less about us. An exception to the Big Bank outside our communities would be local credit unions like Community First that is 100% local. Support starts at home! Please see the article Cash or Credit? in my current edition of the West County Gazette - on line at WCG Extra! at www.westcountygazette.com (https://www.westcountygazette.com). This is an important subject that we need to LIVE as we strive to keep our local economy strong. - Vesta

[Alex]

I'll add a heads-up. I recently had two credit cards cancelled with zero balances and very high limits for 'lack of use'. Maybe cancelling you after 2 years of no use is nothing new, but it's never happened to me before. I quick put a little balance on another that I haven't used in a while.
Alex



Barry wrote: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/orangebuttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/general-community/49380-financial-collapse-hits-home.html#post83120)
Hey Everybody,

.....So first off, if any of you have a line of credit that you think you might want to use, you may want to consider pulling some money out just to have it handy if you need it.

Has anybody else had their credit line canceled or experienced and other effects of the credit crisis first hand?

[Photoguy]

Actually this is a good reason to USE CREDIT CARDS right now. As long as the card companies are paying the stores this brings cash into the local economy. Keep your cash, use your unsecured credit until it is removed, which will be very soon. Once the credit card companies stop paying vendors then they will be useless and cash or trade will be the only options. It will be very important for vendors to stop accepting credit cards the very first time Visa or Mastercard etc. don't pay on time.


This is anther reason to consider supporting our LOCAL economy with CASH instead of credit. By purchasing goods - with CASH - from local vendors, we keep money in our own communities rather than sending credit card fees and interest payments into the hands of banks who could care less about us. An exception to the Big Bank outside our communities would be local credit unions like Community First that is 100% local. Support starts at home! Please see the article Cash or Credit? in my current edition of the West County Gazette - on line at WCG Extra! at www.westcountygazette.com (https://www.westcountygazette.com). This is an important subject that we need to LIVE as we strive to keep our local economy strong. - Vesta

[maryr45]

We have a card with Advanta. A year ago our interest rate was 6.99% after one five day late in May they gradually increased our rate to 37%!!

Payment went from like $150/month on a $15K balance to $600/month!

Finally decided to hell with it we won't pay it's ridiculous, misery of usury. Now they call daily and we tell them we will pay them 12% interest if they remove the late penalties and any dings on our credit.

It could get ugly but we just don't care anymore, we get calls from people in India and I tell them we hold them no ill will and then I say you know Gandhi did the same thing to get the British out of India. He decided to no longer play by the rules imposed by the British.

M.

[Photoguy]

Anyone who already has dings against their credit and has high fees should not pay anything to the card companies. Keep your money, you will need it. They are lying thieving scum. The system will collapse with or without your payments.


We have a card with Advanta. A year ago our interest rate was 6.99% after one five day late in May they gradually increased our rate to 37%!!

Payment went from like $150/month on a $15K balance to $600/month!

Finally decided to hell with it we won't pay it's ridiculous, misery of usury. Now they call daily and we tell them we will pay them 12% interest if they remove the late penalties and any dings on our credit.

It could get ugly but we just don't care anymore, we get calls from people in India and I tell them we hold them no ill will and then I say you know Gandhi did the same thing to get the British out of India. He decided to no longer play by the rules imposed by the British.

M.

[[email protected]]

You are missing the point that local stores lose 2 to 3% of every purchase to the credit card company - that money is literally leaving our community! We need to take care of our local economy first! CASH is money NOW - no waiting - no loss of a percentage - AND - credit card companies charge not only the vendor - they also charge the credit card holder! They double-charge and our local economy loses every time someone uses their card instead of cash! - Vesta



Actually this is a good reason to USE CREDIT CARDS right now. As long as the card companies are paying the stores this brings cash into the local economy. Keep your cash, use your unsecured credit until it is removed, which will be very soon. Once the credit card companies stop paying vendors then they will be useless and cash or trade will be the only options. It will be very important for vendors to stop accepting credit cards the very first time Visa or Mastercard etc. don't pay on time.

[Hot Compost]

Anyone who already has dings against their credit and has high fees should not pay anything to the card companies. Keep your money, you will need it. They are lying thieving scum. The system will collapse with or without your payments.

in San Diego, i used to share a weight room with a retired "debt counselor" for East Coast organized crime. he was very open about his 10 years of jail-time. it was also hard for him to hide the fact that he was 6' 6". so, yes, technically, he was literally a "leg-breaker". also, based on his coercive brand of Christianity, "accept Jesus Christ as your savior or i'll (kick your ass)", i would say there was a reason he was so in need of the 'forgiveness' that is advertised by the Christian religion.

paradoxically, he was also one of the most honest people i've ever met. ironically, he ended up working as a legal debt counselor - selling sub-prime mortgages.

i would rather be in debt to someone like him than the American credit card companies. they honestly do not have your well-being on the top of their minds. and, instead of some brutish guys with guns & creative things to hit you with, they have plenty of attorneys writing the contracts that you sign when you sign up for a card.

i think it is generally worthwhile to minimize the contractual relationships that you have with American corporations, circa 2009.

[lifequest]

The credit card rate increases amounting to usury result from the companies changing their business situs to North or South Dakota (can't remember which) and they have very lax limits on how much interest can be charged while California does limit them.

Some of the better credit card rates come from Credit Unions...it makes sense to switch your checking and savings accounts from any bank to a credit union and also use their credit cards. As a credit union member you actually are an owner as well. And they're local businesses.

[Dan Fein]

The same thing happened to us, and I felt the same way - like it just hit home. In our case the HELOC wasn't cancelled, but the credit line was reduced to the balance we had outstanding. The bank (Wells) said that it was based on the fact that average home values in our area had fallen to less than needed to support the mortgage and the HELOC. It was not based on any specifics of our house. In the same letter, the bank offered a review, if we were willing to pay for an appraisal. If the appraisal came in above X they would reinstate the LOC and reimburse us for the appraisal. Fortunately for us, the appraisal came in at well above X and we're back where we were. I'll make sure we have a cash cushion now, even if it means paying some extra interest to have it.



Hey Everybody,

The financial collapse got very real for me today when I found out that my real estate line of credit has been canceled! Not only that, they tripled the minimum monthly payment on my outstanding balance! I couldn't believe it!

I hope between friends and family I can find some credit if I need it, because I doubt I'll be able to qualify for a new credit line even after this fiasco gets sorted out (unless WaccoBB.n gets a lot more profitable).

I imagine many people don't have access to non-bank credit. Something like this could easily push them into bankruptcy or having to sell their home, especially in these tight times. This is huge!

So first off, if any of you have a line of credit that you think you might want to use, you may want to consider pulling some money out just to have it handy if you need it.

Has anybody else had their credit line canceled or experienced and other effects of the credit crisis first hand?

[Philip Tymon]

I agree with Vesta (who can resist)-- credit cards charge fees of anywhere from 3% to 6%-- sucking the profit out of local businesses. Perhaps a business should give a small discount (1%-2%) to anyone who pays by cash or check to encourage people to avoid credit cards. I'm not sure if this violates their agreement with CC companies, but lots of gas stations seem to do it. (One service person I deal with gives me a substantial discount if I pay in cash-- and boy does that motivate me to do so!)

More generally, I've stopped believing anything any large corporation tells me-- the effect of those brilliant MBAs and all their marketing schemes is that I, and I'll bet most Americans, no longer believe anything any corporation says-- there's ALWAYS a catch-- ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS!

I think we should define a new crime of "Economic Treason"-- Enron being a perfect example. Companies whose chicanery is so broad and widespread that it undermines the integrity of the nation should be convicted of treason. I wouldn't mind seeing John Thaine and his ilk hanging from the end of a rope.

Phil




You are missing the point that local stores lose 2 to 3% of every purchase to the credit card company - that money is literally leaving our community! We need to take care of our local economy first! CASH is money NOW - no waiting - no loss of a percentage - AND - credit card companies charge not only the vendor - they also charge the credit card holder! They double-charge and our local economy loses every time someone uses their card instead of cash! - Vesta

[shellebelle]

Actually you are both wrong.

I just recently blogged

Could Credit Cards be Creating Failed Businesses? (https://sebastopol.ning.com/profiles/blogs/could-credit-cards-be-creating)

Have you been wondering why businesses are going under and raising prices? Did you know that rewards cards charge the businesses another 5-7% on top of their normal fees? Yes that's right - your reward card no matter the name on it is costing the merchants you shop with money. So what do you do? Well if you are a merchant check out PayPal's Virtual Terminal (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_vt_hub-outside&nav=2.0.4) - that has the interchange charges… Continue (https://sebastopol.ning.com/profiles/blogs/could-credit-cards-be-creating)
Plus they are often charging additional fees like machine rental, etc - you name it there is a fee for it.

Yet on to a more challenging level. Why is extensive credit card credit necessary?

I have less than $1500 in debt - I made a choice. I chose to sow prosperity not debt. Yet I see on this thread others chose to use credit and now are reaping what they sowed - debt and unpredictable debt at that.

I am not saying in anyway that a 37.5% rate is by any means fair - definitely excessive and potentially against the law.

To me creating credit card debt is not in my own best interest. In fact most debt is not in my best interest. I have been there and done that - never again. If I have my wish/dream I will not even have car or house debt in the future.

I wonder when we will stop, re-evaluate and realize that prosperity begins with sowing prosperity and we can't sow prosperity from the position of debt. But then again so many here are vibrating away from joy, wellness, and love as well.

I wish you all god luck. I find that from the position of not enough; the position of debt; it is hard to embrace prosperity.

If you need help changing your vibration and moving to a position of prosperity come talk to me on March 3rd at Community Bike's Synergy at 7pm. https://www.squidoo.com/<wbr>theseedmeetup (https://www.squidoo.com/theseedmeetup)




I agree with Vesta (who can resist)-- credit cards charge fees of anywhere from 3% to 6%-- sucking the profit out of local businesses. Perhaps a business should give a small discount (1%-2%) to anyone who pays by cash or check to encourage people to avoid credit cards. I'm not sure if this violates their agreement with CC companies, but lots of gas stations seem to do it. (One service person I deal with gives me a substantial discount if I pay in cash-- and boy does that motivate me to do so!)

More generally, I've stopped believing anything any large corporation tells me-- the effect of those brilliant MBAs and all their marketing schemes is that I, and I'll bet most Americans, no longer believe anything any corporation says-- there's ALWAYS a catch-- ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS!

I think we should define a new crime of "Economic Treason"-- Enron being a perfect example. Companies whose chicanery is so broad and widespread that it undermines the integrity of the nation should be convicted of treason. I wouldn't mind seeing John Thaine and his ilk hanging from the end of a rope.

Phil

[LADYWITHART]

:hello: Yes, my son and his wife bought a nice fixer upper in the JC district.
They had a line of credit for $100,000. They did most of the work themselves and beautifully remodeled their bathroom and then the kitchen plus repair to hardwood floors, clean up and paint.
They had $17,000 left to landscape front, side and back yard.
So even though they had taken an eyesore and made it a charming home they got a letter from the bank.
It said, because of the declining value of your property we are rescinding your remaining loan.
So, your right Barry, if you might need the money withdraw it today and put in a short term c.d. or somewhere else so you have it. Oh, yes, they were never late on any loans.
:hmmm: Suzanne


Yes, we too have had our HELOC reduced 3 times now due to dropping property values and no fault of our own. The most insidious part of it is that the bank notifies you of the reduction in limit a week after they do it. This resulted in our bouncing a check with the IRS-I won't even get started on that story! Yes, this crisis has hit home and keeps knocking. Good luck to everyone!

[Lorrie]

letter from the bank.
It said, because of the declining value of your property we are rescinding your remaining loan.
:hmmm: Suzanne

See I don't understand this...Why would the bank rescind the loan? Why didn't they just adjust it, or let them keep paying it, maybe I am extremely nieve, but, wouldn't that mean the bank would keep getting payments ~ money? If the loan wasn't recinded?
Isn't that what they want the money?
Sorry I don't know that much about real estate.

[Bryan]

I have my money in a non-profit credit union. They haven't been involved in all of the stupid betting that the banks have . credit cards are a HUGE profit maker for banks. They make money FIRST on charges to the business - I use and recommend a local credit card processing firm called Orbis. They provide me a fixed upcharge over the interbank fee. The average cost is about 2% to my store. The latest thing is the rampup for frequent flyer cards - I pay now like hotels and airlines USED to pay even though I am a retailer - basically they now charge ALL Visa/MC accounts when someone has a frequent flyer card. ITs not 5% - its just the highest charge we get hit with - e.g. Amex rates which we also pay. In any case, I like Orbis as they were willing to give my store the inside information on what they have to pay.

The cc firms make a lot from my store but Orbis averages $80 a month. One of the founders of Orbis was a school teacher in Sonoma who retired and started this as a way to do something honest in business. They are based in Novato - my shop has had them for 4-5 years at least without any problem. Costco also offers a similar service but I like sticking with a local company.

The credit card companies are not the same as my cc provider. Orbis is just a middle man - lots of companies can save money by using a different middle man. THe banks make money first on this interchange rate. Then they burn a late payment fee of $39 if the customers are a day late. Then they 'adjust' your interest because they can. So yes, cc's are a RIP OFF.

I use my credit unions cc'card. Why? They take the minimum payment automatically from my checking account. NO LATE FEE. Have a fixed rate but I pay off the balance as fast as I can. But I am ok if they make a small profit from my card - why? They are a nonprofit and don't have overpaid staff and big bonus ripoff management. I don't see my money getting stolen from me to pay someone off whose job it is to squeeze their own customers for more money. I see it as providing me with a nice credit union that does its job honestly and regularly. I have had Patelco for well over 20 years without ANY complaint. Redwood is also a great credit union - I just had Patelco due to an initial 'in' with the phone company - anyone can now join who lives in the area. There's a branch in RP that I visit a few times a year but normally, I just use ATMs and mail deposits directly.

Most Banks are losing out any sense of customer loyalty. Check out a credit union. They have very easy rules to get in now - why? because in 1998 the banks TRIED to force them out of business a few years ago as they saw them as long term threat. The Congress received probably a MILLION messages telling them not to think of breaking the back of the credit union. The results? Credit unions won the ability to get more members.
This was a huge community based win. under Republican congress, the banks kept trying to force credit unions to pay federal taxes. They keep losing - even Bush was against the idea but paid congressional cronies keep presenting the stupid ideas.

Read here about the credit card fees getting changed in the consumer's favor: Credit union regulator approves new credit card rules (https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-union-approves-new-card-rules-bulletin-1282.php)


read here about credit unions:
10 reasons credit unions rule - Smart Spending Blog - MSN Money (https://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/smartspending/archive/2009/01/06/10-reasons-why-credit-unions-rule.aspx)
read here about how banks recently lied to congress that credit unions were growing 'out of control' and should pay taxes- while in fact they represent about the same amount of assets as historically:
https://www.cuna.org/pol_affairs/congress_briefing.html (https://www.cuna.org/pol_affairs/congress_briefing.html)


There are still some good banks - my business banking is done with Bank of the West - they are not small (5th in California) but the local office in Sebastopol has done fantastic service for me for over 10 years. I didn't pick the locally owned bank simply because when I visited their offices, the staff didn't acknowledge me. I wanted to stay local, but the several local bank offices I visited seemed more bothered by someone coming in. BofW in Sebastopol is truly a great little business bank where they STILL say hello when someone walks in and still offer a lot of service each day.

Credit unions have HELOCs and other basic loans. Check them out and see what they can do for you. Or find a better bank and close that account.

[santarosie]

Roll back to the early 1970's.
Scene:
1736 East 32nd Street, Brooklyn N.Y. 11234
Very modest (semi-attached) 2 story home in a working class neighborhood.

My parents are sitting at our dining room table talking about their credit problems. Collections agents have been calling consistently asking for payment on credit card bills none-too-politely. I'm about 10 y.o. and don't much understand what's going on, except that we have "money trouble". Dad is taking all of the plastic credit cards and cutting them up with a scissor. Mom is crying, "How are we gonna get what we need for our family?". Dad: "We're gonna pay cash for routine necessities, only buy what we can afford, and NO MORE credit". Period. End of story. They do the debt consolidation thing, start paying it all off, and we all learn from their mistakes, about greedy corporations, and living within your means, whatever they are at any time.

No more extras. My sisters and I started making clothes, and we all got jobs as soon as we could get that little blue card thingy that would let us become employed. Before that, it was baby sitting, yard/house cleaning, ANYTHING. If we wanted stuff, we had to earn our own $$.

So here we are in to 00's with a similar scene in the financial markets. But I've remembered those lessons, the hard times. I do use credit cards, but I pay off the entire balance every month. If I can't afford to pay for it now, I'll wait to get it until I can (whatever it is). I try to put away some money in savings every month.

Not trying to be judgmental, just sharing my POV on the topic. If you're in hard deep debt, burn those cards, and work towards solvency. It's a much more peaceful existence.

[The A Team]

What has happened for many people including our family and many others we know is: job loss of one partner and loss of business from the other in self employment. So while I agree with you... what is really happening is folks using credit for necessities such as food. About 4-5 out of 10 of the businesses we have been acquainted with have gone under. I don't know anyone at this point who is using credit for extras. I remember the recession of the 70's and the reality of living then was the cost of living about 80% cheaper than now and wages about the same as now. So for those out there who have jobs and business bless you. The rest of us are scrambling daily to find work, clients etc. I am grateful there are many people who care and are working hard to pull through this.


Roll back to the early 1970's.
Scene:
1736 East 32nd Street, Brooklyn N.Y. 11234
Very modest (semi-attached) 2 story home in a working class neighborhood.

My parents are sitting at our dining room table talking about their credit problems. Collections agents have been calling consistently asking for payment on credit card bills none-too-politely. I'm about 10 y.o. and don't much understand what's going on, except that we have "money trouble". Dad is taking all of the plastic credit cards and cutting them up with a scissor. Mom is crying, "How are we gonna get what we need for our family?". Dad: "We're gonna pay cash for routine necessities, only buy what we can afford, and NO MORE credit". Period. End of story. They do the debt consolidation thing, start paying it all off, and we all learn from their mistakes, about greedy corporations, and living within your means, whatever they are at any time.

No more extras. My sisters and I started making clothes, and we all got jobs as soon as we could get that little blue card thingy that would let us become employed. Before that, it was baby sitting, yard/house cleaning, ANYTHING. If we wanted stuff, we had to earn our own $$.

So here we are in to 00's with a similar scene in the financial markets. But I've remembered those lessons, the hard times. I do use credit cards, but I pay off the entire balance every month. If I can't afford to pay for it now, I'll wait to get it until I can (whatever it is). I try to put away some money in savings every month.

Not trying to be judgmental, just sharing my POV on the topic. If you're in hard deep debt, burn those cards, and work towards solvency. It's a much more peaceful existence.

[Barry]

The financial collapse got very real for me today when I found out that my real estate line of credit has been canceled!

I went out dancing (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/events-classes/49438-sebastopol-dance-jam-friday-night.html#post83234) (excellent music and drumming) and then for beer at the Monk last night, and all night long people were coming up to me and saying "bummer about your credit line". It caught me by surprise!

And I was a bit embarrassed, because it turns out that what actually happened was that the "draw period" (when I could draw against the credit line) was only 5 years, and it had expired. Ooops! I have requested that be extended, which during normal times would probably be easy, but not now. And there's no way I could qualify for a new line at this point. Eeek!

[[email protected]]

I continue to encourage people to create their own jobs. It's easier than people think. A good poster, a network of communication, an assessment of your skills and most of all, a willingness to do work that maintains life. As evidenced by full restaurants and night clubs, people are still out spending money on fun and entertainment. (Right Barry? You were at HopMonk last night!) If they have enough $ for those pleasures, they have enough to hire people for maintenance. Too proud to clean houses and garden? Think again. A good house cleaner charges $20 an hour minimum. It's honorable work and takes stress off of busy couples who would otherwise argue about who is not carrying the burden of life maintenance. Create your own job - it's easier than you think - Vesta

[photolite]

I think encouraging people to get creative and earn a living using practical skills is always a good idea and I commend you for promoting it. Unfortunately I believe it to be a good deal more difficult than you realize.

I know two hardworking and reputable young ladies, born and raised here, trying hard to find work doing house cleaning and maintanence but with no luck so far. They tell me that this is exactly the sort of cutting back people are making in their lives to get by right now.

Also, those bars and restaurants may be having a good Friday night on occassion but most that I know, by far, say that business is way down and they're struggling and hoping to survive. Very, very few are thriving.

Photo

[Vet-To-Pet]

I have to agree with this posting. I am a veterinarian, and I do relief work (as well as house calls), and no matter which veterinary hospital I'm working at, everyone is saying it's slow. People don't care less about their pets, it's just a matter of either paying for human/family necessities, or taking their pet(s) in for vaccinations or other non-urgent care. I can't force people to hire me to treat their animals, and as more & more people are going into foreclosure, losing their homes, more animals/pets are being put out on the streets, to fend for themselves. The shelters are bulging with dogs & cats who have been picked up & not claimed.

Getting creative is certainly worth trying, but if one doesn't have the talents or knowledge to create a job that's needed during these tough times, what's one supposed to do? Maybe what this community needs, for the time being, is some group homes, either rented or owned (by someone, not by the group), where they can pool their resourses. One person can clean the house, do laundry, another can be in charge of preparing meals, childcare, others who haven't lost their jobs can pay some bills, rent, and others can keep the place in good repair. Staring a large vegetable garden is certainly something that can be started at this time of year, so that can be a combined effort. However the group thinks it's fair to divide the work/income should be how things are done---maybe even childcare can be ofered to others in the neighborhood, to bring in some money fro the group. repairs can be made in other homes, since everyone's trying to keep expenses down & not buying something new right away when there's a possibility than something can be prepared.

Also, for those who don't have any skills that are in demand at this time (at least not for payment), they might look into volunteering someplace where they might be able to get their foot in the door once they've learned enough to earn a salary, if a position opens up--so pick something that you'd like to do if you're going to go that route.

It's not very helpful to say that people should get creative about making jobs for themselves if the people in need of jobs don't have any desired skills. maybe learning more about computers while things are so slow would be one way to be more marketable when the economy picks up, but hiring a novice computer technician isn't gonna happen. We have to group together to form mini-communes in order for people to be able to have appropriate living conditions. Cut back on high-priced foods, eat vegetables (fresh grown, in a few months), make clothing (or learn how to do so), if you have a hobby, try to turn it into a paying position, such as photography or music lessons or sewing lessons or offer to drive for people who are too busy---get their grocery list & pick up their groceries & put them away, mow lawns. Try to imagine what would be something that employed people would still hire someone to do, that needs to get done no matter what the economy is doing these days. but try to work together, it'll seem less overwhelming that way, in my opinion.
Smiles,
Vet-To-Pet
(Paula)


I think encouraging people to get creative and earn a living using practical skills is always a good idea and I commend you for promoting it. Unfortunately I believe it to be a good deal more difficult than you realize.

I know two hardworking and reputable young ladies, born and raised here, trying hard to find work doing house cleaning and maintanence but with no luck so far. They tell me that this is exactly the sort of cutting back people are making in their lives to get by right now.

Also, those bars and restaurants may be having a good Friday night on occassion but most that I know, by far, say that business is way down and they're struggling and hoping to survive. Very, very few are thriving.

Photo

[Sciguy]

Barry:
I think we all know that your experience is shared, not unique. I have noticed a phenomenon which suggests that a terrible denouement is coming and I want to ask for other people's opinions.

Just like your situation, I think I see and hear that everyone is calling in the spare resources that they had squirreled away in corners (if they had any). Some more, some less, but everyone is burning thru their backups just to keep on keeping on. Common sense tells me that this can go on for just so long before all the spare money and items and jobs run out and then bang! No more reserves. Foreclosure and all the rest, no longer able to be staved off.

The curious part is that each person or family is doing this individually. as though they were suffering alone. Many of us are still skating by. But our available resources, like any other statistic, probably follow a bell curve with most people clustered around some average or peak point. What this says to me is that lots and lots of people are all going to hit a wall at about the same time.

So what is the wall we are skiing toward, downhill at increasing speed? Will it be terrible? Will Americans be content to sleep passively on the streets? Or will there be a huge upwelling of resistance and anger? Will politicians' houses be singled out for attack? Or CEO's? Or bankers? Will we have block parties as in the Great Depression and will the public wait until the sheriff puts people out of their homes and then put all of their furniture and goods back inside the home again? These are the stories I heard from my parents from the Great Depression. People were riding boxcars around the country then but like Judy Collins sang, you can't jump a jet plane, like you can a freight train.

There is a quantum jump in anger coming at us like the Titanic on the iceberg. Mack the Knife asks: "where will we all be on Coronation Day?" and I wonder the same thing.

Paul Palmer



I went out dancing (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/events-classes/49438-sebastopol-dance-jam-friday-night.html#post83234) (excellent music and drumming) and then for beer at the Monk last night, and all night long people were coming up to me and saying "bummer about your credit line". It caught me by surprise!

And I was a bit embarrassed, because it turns out that what actually happened was that the "draw period" (when I could draw against the credit line) was only 5 years, and it had expired. Ooops! I have requested that be extended, which during normal times would probably be easy, but not now. And there's no way I could qualify for a new line at this point. Eeek!

[Sara S]

You present good ideas, but I know of several good house cleaners who charge $15 per hour, and are glad to get it.

Sara





I continue to encourage people to create their own jobs. It's easier than people think. A good poster, a network of communication, an assessment of your skills and most of all, a willingness to do work that maintains life. As evidenced by full restaurants and night clubs, people are still out spending money on fun and entertainment. (Right Barry? You were at HopMonk last night!) If they have enough $ for those pleasures, they have enough to hire people for maintenance. Too proud to clean houses and garden? Think again. A good house cleaner charges $20 an hour minimum. It's honorable work and takes stress off of busy couples who would otherwise argue about who is not carrying the burden of life maintenance. Create your own job - it's easier than you think - Vesta

[maryr45]

Great news!!

I just got off the phone with some nice young man in India agreeing that Advanta would reduce our interest on the credit card from 37% to 16.99% and wave the late fees. That works for us...we will get current.

Mid-January we stopped making payments. The daily calls began the first part of February. We told them politely every call we will not pay this ridiculous interest.

We will pay off the entire card later this year if we can sell some property. Meanwhile we are not participating in paying immoral interest charges. I think we will have one late on an otherwise clear credit report but our effort saved us a lot in interest. (by the way new laws are making it illegal for credit card companies to increase interest rate if late less than 30 days...).

Good Luck to everybody in hard times!

M.



We have a card with Advanta. A year ago our interest rate was 6.99% after one five day late in May they gradually increased our rate to 37%!!

Payment went from like $150/month on a $15K balance to $600/month!

Finally decided to hell with it we won't pay it's ridiculous, misery of usury. Now they call daily and we tell them we will pay them 12% interest if they remove the late penalties and any dings on our credit.

It could get ugly but we just don't care anymore, we get calls from people in India and I tell them we hold them no ill will and then I say you know Gandhi did the same thing to get the British out of India. He decided to no longer play by the rules imposed by the British.

M.

[[email protected]]

I understand people's desires to join forces with others...neighborhoods, communes, etc., but those are long-term aspirations that don't apply to everyone. Very good for those inclined, however. Intentional communities are a good example and Occidental Arts & Ecology Center has a seminar series coming up on the subject. They are an intentional community, so they teach the subject from living it.

Not everyone is comfortable with sharing on that level. Finances are one subject that is rarely shared other than a general “I'm too broke to...” Money is traditionally a private subject. With that in mind, there are ways to share the burden of life without getting personal.

The paying with cash concept keeps money local. Using credit unions instead of banks keeps money local. Shopping at local stores keeps money within our own communities. Farmers markets instead of supermarkets means the food is grown locally and sold locally to feed local families. WACCO advertiser First Light Farm is an example.

People can take care of each other - our collective family, in many diferent ways that don't drastically change the way we live - just focus our attention closer to home. - Vesta

[lifequest]

Utah is one of the states with lender friendly interest rates. Congratulations on negotiating the rate down. It proves Advanta still wants to hold on to customers but will rip off anyone who fails to take action.

This is part of an article on the law which allowed this practice:

State of interest rates
In Marquette vs. First Omaha Service Corp., the Supreme Court ruled that a national bank could charge the highest interest rate allowed in their home state to customers living anywhere in the United States, including states with restrictive interest caps.

"It's whatever is agreed to in the contract," says Michael Donovan, a consumer attorney and partner at Donovan Searles in Philadelphia.
"They can export rates to other states and override state law limits."

When it comes to credit card interest rates, the law in a lender's home state rules. It doesn't matter what kind of rate cap exists in a customer's state.

A funny thing happened after the Marquette ruling. Major credit card companies began relocating to states with liberal or no usury laws. New York-based powerhouse Citibank moved its credit card business to South Dakota in 1981.

"Citibank went to South Dakota, not because South Dakota was a banking center but because it had that particular law," Donovan says.

In 1982, the four largest banks in Maryland relocated their credit card operations to Delaware because of that state's lender-friendly credit card laws. Other states with lender-friendly credit laws include Georgia, Illinois, Nebraska, Nevada, Rhode Island and Utah.

[[email protected]]

I think encouraging people to get creative and earn a living using practical skills is always a good idea and I commend you for promoting it. Unfortunately I believe it to be a good deal more difficult than you realize.

It's not a fantasy - it was my reality a number of years ago when I needed more income and both cleaned houses and gardened for people. And now my daughter just started cleaning houses again after quitting her $11 an hour job she hated, and started cleaning houses in Colorado for $15 an hour. It's hard work. I know people don't always charge as much as $20 an hour - but believe me - they deserve it! The better the work, the faster the person who does it, the more the task is worth.


I know two hardworking and reputable young ladies, born and raised here, trying hard to find work doing house cleaning and maintenance but with no luck so far.

Then they aren't marketing themselves well. There's not a business that won't benefit from good marketing. People fail to see it that way, but it's true. My daughter has post cards, posters and business cards she puts up on bulletin boards, etc. For every client she gets, she leaves cards for them to give their friends. It works. When you market yourself with ambition it shows that your are self-driven and self-motivated. People respect that in a house cleaner and/or gardener..or ANY business person!


They tell me that this is exactly the sort of cutting back people are making in their lives to get by right now.

Perhaps so, but only people who hired people as a luxury for themselves will drop the house cleaner, etc. - you'd be amazed how many people consider it a necessity! People who don't maintain their own lives don't have the skills to do it - nor the motivation - you just have to find them!


Also, those bars and restaurants may be having a good Friday night on occasion but most that I know, by far, say that business is way down and they're struggling and hoping to survive. Very, very few are thriving.

Thriving is a matter of definition - for many of us in business, simply making the bottom line is enough to consider ourselves fortunate.

Attitude is EVERYTHING and those with a positive attitude will survive - and even thrive - as those who are bummed out fall to the wayside. People want to do business with people who make them feel good - restaurants included. - Vesta

[Hot Compost]

The paying with cash concept keeps money local. Using credit unions instead of banks keeps money local. Shopping at local stores keeps money within our own communities. Farmers markets instead of supermarkets means the food is grown locally and sold locally to feed local families. WACCO advertiser First Light Farm is an example.

just paying your bills on time when dealing with humanitarian people & groups (humanitarian, progressive, rejection of crony disaster capitalism, however you want to put it) - that makes a huge difference.

when it doesn't happen, e.g. a bounced invoice - it's not good for the Village (e.g. the Village that Hillary C. may have been referring to in her book "It Takes a Village".) it erodes trust.

the bills paid on time (to progressive organizations) builds trust.

[phooph]

Here's a speech by someone who lived through the collapse of the Soviet Union who makes some observations and proposals. If you are on the Post Carbon Institute mailing list the links were in their last bulletin. Print and mp3 versions:

Social collapse best practices | Energy Bulletin (https://www.energybulletin.net/node/48082)

https://fora.tv/media/rss/Long_Now_Podcasts/podcast-2009-02-13-orlov.mp3


We have to group together to form mini-communes in order for people to be able to have appropriate living conditions. Cut back on high-priced foods, eat vegetables (fresh grown, in a few months), make clothing (or learn how to do so), if you have a hobby, try to turn it into a paying position, such as photography or music lessons or sewing lessons or offer to drive for people who are too busy---get their grocery list & pick up their groceries & put them away, mow lawns. Try to imagine what would be something that employed people would still hire someone to do, that needs to get done no matter what the economy is doing these days. but try to work together, it'll seem less overwhelming that way, in my opinion.
Smiles,
Vet-To-Pet
(Paula)

[Tars]

It's going to be a busy season at the flea market.