The passage of Prop. 8 is the same as the Nazi persecution in Germany under Hitler. Along with Jews, gays were labeled but with a pink triangle. Make no mistake about it. This bigotry today in California is evil persecution that goes back clearly to the mass murder of homosexuals by the Nazis in the 1930s and 40s. If I had been in Germany back then I would have been executed alongside the Jews in the gas chambers and crematoriums, as many of my cohorts were. It was also the Homosexual Holocaust.
The passage of Prop. 8 is the same as the Nazi persecution in Germany under Hitler. ...
No, it's not.
Take down this thread.
There is almost no similarity at all.
-Jeff
artfulme
02-08-2009, 02:42 PM
Agree completely!!
When one group is labeled by the government/people in power as less entitled to benefits conferred on the others, THAT is fascism. A form of dictatorship, the opposite of democracy.
Thus, the violation of a basic foundation of democracy : a government of the people and answerable to the people with EVERYBODY entitled to equal rights and responsibilities, regardless of race, ethnicity, and religion, as in the 14th amendment to our constitution.
Together with the 13th amendment, that ASSURED that all citizens have, BY LAW, individually, the equal protection of the law. This basic aspect of our country, its foundation, and its promise for continuation for our children and theirs...is a matter to be celebrated as hope for all people...not just the majority, or those captured by their religion, or the well-connected.
Thus, the centuries of prejudice, bigotry and violence done to the former slaves brought to the US against their will....... was (reluctantly) recognized as citizens and were entitled to--likewise--equal rights along with the majority.
The continuing demeaning of people for their sexual proclivities and life-style is--as seen in Prop 8, the latest exercise by THE CHURCH to have all of Americans accept its own "biblical" demeaning of this group...along with its fear, hatred, and terror about ALL sex other than for procreation.
If that is YOUR theme, do it for yourself, but leave all others to their own way of life. Consenting adults people should not be hindered in their lives for the benefit of others. The inability of homosexuals
to reproduce between themselves is used to add another "justification" to reducing their worthiness and making them subject to GOVERNMENT bigotry/prejudice at the behest of THE CHURCH!!
Thus, a clear and obvious violation of the church-state separation under the constitution.
Any church, religious or other group advocating the adoption of ITS RELIGIOUS viewpoint by government (Prop 8) is advocating a violation of the constitution, clearly.
Prejudice is NOT what this country was meant to be by the BRILLIANT founders....with the 5/8-blacks rules finally overcome by the 13th and 14th, as said.
I BELIEVE IN THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND HATE!!!
Valley Oak
02-08-2009, 04:38 PM
You are very alone on this one, Jeff. Also, I am surprised at the degree to which you are wrong as well as how arrogant.
Maybe you should delete your post before anyone else reads it?
Edward
No, it's not.
Take down this thread.
There is almost no similarity at all.
-Jeff
Zeno Swijtink
02-08-2009, 04:54 PM
When one group is labeled by the government/people in power as less entitled to benefits conferred on the others, THAT is fascism. A form of dictatorship, the opposite of democracy.
I think the way you state this is too strong.
Not all differential treatment is necessarily bad. For example, children are treated differently under the law. That's good in general. Handicapped people also have special rights that depend on their handicap.
artfulme
02-08-2009, 05:35 PM
You fail to understand.
->TAKING AWAY RIGHTS<- IS VASTLY DIFFERENT THAN GIVING MORE BECAUSE OF SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES.
The idea expressed in my post is correct...IF you are NOT denying rights to some that are GIVEN to others.
Equality of Rights, not failing to consider some people's special circumstances. If there is a reason for affirmative action, that was/is it. Even our mostly conservative recent Supreme Court recognized that, in part.
Hot Compost
02-08-2009, 07:26 PM
the treatment of gay people in California is quite different from the treatment of gay people in Nazi Germany.
that would be an understatement.
the gay people that i know and that i see and read about in California are quite completely integrated into the society.
at the same time, there are many people in California that are not comfortable with gay marriage. and they expressed themselves with the Prop. 8 vote.
they're not going away, just as citizens of California who are gay are not going away.
Prop. 8 passed and California, in most places, is still a safe place to be gay. It's paradoxical, and odd - i didn't think Prop. 8 would pass.
Braggi
02-08-2009, 08:17 PM
the treatment of gay people in California is quite different from the treatment of gay people in Nazi Germany.
that would be an understatement. ...
Uh, yeah. No joke. Suggesting that denial of a piece of paper to people that otherwise live in luxury is somehow comparable to the torments, degradations, and downright murder of the victims of Nazi Germany demeans the suffering of those victims. There is no comparison. None.
Prop 8 is a demonstration of the failure of a true democracy to protect minorities and that's why the founding families of this republic railed against the notion that the US should be a democracy. We have a constitutional republic founded upon the notion of individual rights that the government is supposed to be powerless to take away. We have a system of checks and balances that is supposed to insure that.
The proposition system in California is a way around the will of the founders and is a terrible way to do business, as proven by Prop 8 and so many other dogs we've passed. It is the courts that we must look to so that this wrong can be overturned.
Prop 8 is nothing like Nazism where limitations of personal freedoms came down by proclamation from the top. Prop 8 is an example of "the tyranny of the majority" which our form of government is supposed to protect us from.
Prop 8 will be overturned, either by the California Supreme Court, or, at some point by the Federal Supreme Court, assuming the people of California don't overturn it by election in the meantime.
Let's pray the CA Supremes put it right.
-Jeff
PS. I personally think the governments of these United States should have no laws having anything to do with marriage since marriage is a religious and social contract.
MsTerry
02-08-2009, 09:42 PM
PS. I personally think the governments of these United States should have no laws having anything to do with marriage since marriage is a religious and social contract.
I guess you have never gone through a divorce?
artfulme
02-09-2009, 12:30 AM
Take note:
A "divorce" has nothing to do with government control.
The "enforcement" of the rules of divorce is a CIVIL MATTER...and like other civil matters that courts will enforce at the behest of the parties WHO VOLUNTARILY entered into a MARITAL CONTRACTUAL relationship....like other contracts between people. The courts deem that you will honor the contract; if it is broken, there is to be a division of property; but the parties VOLUNTARILY with a pre-nup. can AGREE otherwise. And the court will enforce it.
Thus, by a PRE-NUPTIAL MARITAL AGREEMENT BY THE PARTIES, one can give up certain rights of inheritance and property-sharing...and the courts will enforce that VOLUNTARY AGREEMENT BETWEEN THEM...just as a court will enforce damages for the breach of contract for services and/or goods.
Without society's permission/agreement to have courts enforce agreements, free commerce would NEVER proceed. the enforcement of civil rights.
No relevance...no discrimination!!
Valley Oak
02-09-2009, 07:02 AM
Jeff, please, reflect a bit on what you're saying.
Just for starters, what if the people getting married are atheists or agnostics? What does religion have to do with their vows? Why do you want to impose religion on people who don't want anything to do with it (just like you don't want government in your marriage)? If you can follow this debate in this direction you'll begin to see some serious holes in your reasoning. Another way of looking at it is that there are a lot of people out there, myself included, who don't want religion foisted upon them in any way, whether it be for marriage or anything else!
Can you please comment on this specific point?
Thank you,
Edward
-Jeff
PS. I personally think the governments of these United States should have no laws having anything to do with marriage since marriage is a religious and social contract.
Braggi
02-09-2009, 09:15 AM
... Another way of looking at it is that there are a lot of people out there, myself included, who don't want religion foisted upon them in any way, whether it be for marriage or anything else!
Can you please comment on this specific point? ...
Great. Don't get married in a church.
I'm not really into commenting further in this thread which is a toxic pile of trash. Delete it and start a new thread if you really want to talk about marriage.
-Jeff
Hot Compost
02-09-2009, 06:24 PM
did you change the title ? i thought the title used the word "Holocaust" before.
i think there's some merit, if something hurts, in saying that it hurts. it sounds like the vote on 8 hurt your feelings a lot. i don't think it makes you any smaller of a person to make an admission like that, if it is the case.
i was surprised, but not hurt. this is California. Jesus, for Prop 8 to pass with i think 60% of the vote, that's an indication that San Diego voted maybe 80% for it. Sacramento too. i didn't look at the results, i would think Humboldt, Mendocino, Sonoma, Marin, Oakland, would all vote at least 60% against it, and SF nearly 100% against it. there are some conservative corners in Silicon Valley, e.g. around Los Gatos.
is there a website that has the voting results for Prop 8 county by county ? i can only conclude that areas like San Diego and Sacramento voted overwhelmingly for it, to overcome all those counties that would have had majorities against it.
when i lived in San Diego from SF, i had sort of an interesting "moment of truth" with my co-workers. i worked at an electronics company that made radios for airplanes, including military airplanes. there were 4 of us who went out to lunch because we were "work-friends". this was during the grocery strike.
the guy who usually drove had a Lexus 4-door with air-conditioning. his radio was tuned to Rush, and he liked Rush. when the subject of the strike came up, i explained that i wasn't going to cross the picket line, that i thought it was perfectly reasonable for the grocery people to have health care - they're the ones that have to pick the bugs off the produce.
he expressed his surprise that i was pro-labor, and i said something like, "i'm a liberal democrat on most issues." then his classic response, "i didn't think people like you worked here."
that's pretty much San Diego. Hillcrest is snickeringly referred to as GayCrest by a lot of young people, until they realize that's not copacetic in the work place. it's a wierd combination of Christian pre-occupation, military mentality, and health orientatedness - "i'm working to diversify my cardio routine".
well, i was wrong. San Diego broke down about 53%/ 46% in favor of Prop 8.
https://vote.sos.ca.gov/Returns/props/37.htm
SF only voted 77% against Prop 8.
https://www.sfgate.com/webdb/prop8results/
in the Top 20 counties that voted for Prop 8, the biggest was San Bernardino with about 320K for 160K against, San Bern. broke 67% in favor of Prop 8.
then Riverside about 240K for, 130K against.
LA went 50% 50%, 1.3 million people voting for, 1.3 million against Prop 8.
San Francisco only had 240K voters, total ?
the No On Prop 8 website
https://www.noonprop8.com/
the way it was worded on the ballot
"Proposition 8:
ELIMINATES RIGHT OF SAME-SEX COUPLES TO MARRY. INITIATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT
Changes California Constitution to eliminate right of same-sex couples to marry. Provides that only a marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."
do gay couples in California have all the rights accorded to hetero. couples under other civil rights laws (corporations providing health care for employees' partners, just the way they would for a hetero. couple, etc.)?
pjpete
02-10-2009, 07:29 AM
Oh yes it is....If you think for one minute that Warren and the rest of his cronies love gay people just because Jesus urges us to love thy neighbor as ye love thyself, think again my friends.
No, it's not.
Take down this thread.
There is almost no similarity at all.
-Jeff
Braggi
02-10-2009, 08:11 AM
Oh yes it is...
Bull.
These are victims of Nazi persecution: https://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/holocaust00_1.jpg
You want to learn something about Nazi persecution? Check out this site: The Holocaust (https://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/holocaust.html)
Read that and tell me how Prop 8 compares.
-Jeff
Hot Compost
02-10-2009, 09:02 AM
got a little carried away in that last post.
found this picture, it sums up what happened with Prop 8.
LA Times Prop 8 (https://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/cal/la-2008election-california-results,0,1293859.htmlstory?view=8&tab=0&fnum=0)
interesting how mid & Northern Cal. counties near the Ocean and Lake Tahoe tended to vote against Prop 8. something for sociologists to study.
Braggi
02-10-2009, 09:37 AM
got a little carried away in that last post.
found this picture, it sums up what happened with Prop 8. ...
Thanks for that Compost. That's so much more useful than demonizing people who donated to the Yes on 8 campaign. The fact is there are people who have deeply held beliefs that are different from my own and are willing to put their money where their beliefs are. The map shows where rights crusaders need to focus their education efforts.
Thankfully, in a vast majority, the children of the Yes on 8 folks think more like we do on the subject so it's only a matter of time, and not much time, before another vote overturns Prop 8, or, more properly, a court of high enough jurisdiction throws it out as the unconstitutional trash that it truly is.
-Jeff
Valley Oak
02-10-2009, 09:49 AM
In that horrifying mass grave, along with the Jews, are many homosexuals, Communists, Socialists (aka Social Democrats), gypsies, mentally & physically challenged people, as well as other groups. Eugenics was one of the ideological cornerstones of Nazi extermination and 'queers' were high on the list!
Please do your homework.
How would it make you feel if suddenly, in a ballot initiative, Jews were prohibited from being able to marry? What do you think the ultimate significance of such a despicable action is? It is the same persecution without the mass graves. That's what you're refusing to see for lack of imagination. But the guns and prisons are there because the state has an armed police force to enforce our bigoted laws. Like an iceberg, the greater dimension of the same evil lies underneath but you are looking only at the tip, which is what is visible superficially.
The logical conclusion of gay marriage prohibition are mass graves of 'faggots,' 'queers,' 'perverts,' and all other 'social deviants.'
If we let this one fly then we are all guilty of inviting this to happen to yet another group, maybe Jews, maybe Pagans. Let's vote on a state initiative to prohibit all of the immoral Pagan filth from getting married so they can no longer propagate! Yes! That sounds like a wonderful idea. Vundavah! Yabol. Zig Heil.
Edward
Bull.
These are victims of Nazi persecution: https://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/holocaust00_1.jpg
You want to learn something about Nazi persecution? Check out this site: The Holocaust (https://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/holocaust.html)
Read that and tell me how Prop 8 compares.
-Jeff
Braggi
02-10-2009, 09:58 AM
... Please do your homework.
Edward, I know you're angry and reactionary. Don't be stupid too.
Have you done your homework? If you have then you could justify the title of this thread by posting pictures of the mass graves of the victims of Prop 8.
... unless of course the victims of Nazi persecution and the victims of Prop 8 have nothing in common.
The victims of Prop 8 are being denied state recognition of marriage. That's a far cry from the holocaust. Your comparing them denigrates the memories of those who suffered under the Nazis. Failure of the state to recognize gay marriage is a temporary setback. Death is permanent and life can't be restored. Starting to understand the differences?
-Jeff
Valley Oak
02-10-2009, 10:01 AM
Jeff, please re-read the post you responded to. I have edited it.
Thanks,
Edward
Edward, I know you're angry and reactionary. Don't be stupid too.
Have you done your homework? If you have then you could justify the title of this thread by posting pictures of the mass graves of the victims of Prop 8.
... unless of course the victims of Nazi persecution and the victims of Prop 8 have nothing in common.
The victims of Prop 8 are being denied state recognition of marriage. That's a far cry from the holocaust. Your comparing them denigrates the memories of those who suffered under the Nazis. Failure of the state to recognize gay marriage is a temporary setback. Death is permanent and life can't be restored. Starting to understand the differences?
-Jeff
Braggi
02-10-2009, 10:33 AM
... The logical conclusion of gay marriage prohibition are mass graves of 'faggots,' 'queers,' 'perverts,' and all other 'social deviants.' ...
Edward, you're losing your grip.
The logical conclusion of Prop 8 is a Supreme Court decision legalizing gay marriage across the country.
Even if it takes forty years (Goddess forbid) that's where such state measures are taking us. Let's all give thanks we have Obama in the White House and the next appointments to the Supreme Court will be made by him.
-Jeff
Valley Oak
02-10-2009, 04:47 PM
Jeff and all,
If I may, I'm going to ask you another favor. Please watch this video below. You just might be singing a different tune:
YouTube - Christian Anti-Defamation League: "Bashing" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20M9ywn7Zgs)
Thank you again,
Edward
Edward, you're losing your grip.
The logical conclusion of Prop 8 is a Supreme Court decision legalizing gay marriage across the country.
Even if it takes forty years (Goddess forbid) that's where such state measures are taking us. Let's all give thanks we have Obama in the White House and the next appointments to the Supreme Court will be made by him.
-Jeff
Braggi
02-10-2009, 06:07 PM
Jeff and all,
If I may, I'm going to ask you another favor. Please watch this video below. You just might be singing a different tune: ...
Edward, you are failing to make your point.
Take down the thread.
There is no relation between Prop 8, which was democratically enacted and Nazi persecution, which was top down.
Give it up.
-Jeff
Valley Oak
02-10-2009, 06:43 PM
Jeff, I'm not taking down this thread, my friend. It is going to stay here whether you like it or not. You are not the moderator despite your condescending and grossly mistaken attitude. If you don't like what I post, too bad!
Clear?
Edward
Edward, you are failing to make your point.
Take down the thread.
There is no relation between Prop 8, which was democratically enacted and Nazi persecution, which was top down.
Give it up.
-Jeff
Valley Oak
02-10-2009, 06:47 PM
Nazi's started taking away Jews, Gays, and the like prior to anyconcentration camp. They started with placing them in locked ghettos,taking away their rights, etc. Gay marriage prohibition is a damn good example of taking people's rights away.
Adolph Hitler was democratically elected to power by the German people. That does not make what he did ok.
Edward
Hot Compost
02-10-2009, 08:22 PM
In that horrifying mass grave, along with the Jews, are many homosexuals, Communists, Socialists (aka Social Democrats), gypsies, mentally & physically challenged people, as well as other groups. Eugenics was one of the ideological cornerstones of Nazi extermination and 'queers' were high on the list!
and about 100 million people died in World War 2. many of them were Americans, Englishmen, Canadians, and Russians - all who gave up their lives to stop the German war machine.
if you're concerned about the demonization of gays by Nazi Germany, let's consider who financed the German War machine. the Bush family was integral to the financing of the German War machine. they were caught loaning money to Nazi Germany in 1942 - after America had entered the war.
George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography (https://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm)
The 2 George Bush's are 2 of the last living descendants of Prescott Bush, a genuine Nazi war criminal who escaped scot-free and went on to run for Connecticut senator.
if you're pissed off about what happened to gay people in WW2, talk to Mr. Bush and Mr. Bush.
better yet, work to stop the mass murder that's going on today and, if current trends persist, tomorrow. the killing & persecution of Muslims by Israel & America, via the War on/of Terror.
Muslims are being treated today the way gay people & Jewish people were treated by Nazi Germany.
MsTerry
02-10-2009, 08:40 PM
How many of your friends have been killed and or locked up because of prop 8.
Just give us a rough estimate to shake up the masses.
Nazi's started taking away Jews, Gays, and the like prior to anyconcentration camp. They started with placing them in locked ghettos,taking away their rights, etc. Gay marriage prohibition is a damn good example of taking people's rights away.
Adolph Hitler was democratically elected to power by the German people. That does not make what he did ok.
Edward
Zeno Swijtink
02-10-2009, 08:48 PM
Nazi's started taking away Jews, Gays, and the like prior to anyconcentration camp. They started with placing them in locked ghettos,taking away their rights, etc. Gay marriage prohibition is a damn good example of taking people's rights away.
Adolph Hitler was democratically elected to power by the German people. That does not make what he did ok.
Edward
I think a better comparison, one that speaks more directly to history here in the USA, is the barring of interracial marriages.
Only 42 years ago, in 1967, Supreme Court invalidated a Virginia statute barring nonwhites from marrying whites. This was a hundred odd years after the end of slavery!
Valley Oak
02-10-2009, 10:21 PM
Here is part of your answer (and please actually view it, unlike Jeff):
YouTube - Christian Anti-Defamation League: "Bashing" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20M9ywn7Zgs)
By the way, these people are not my 'friends.' They are human beings like you and me and if they are attacked and murdered then it is an offense against you and me and everyone else as well. Reflect on this.
Edward
How many of your friends have been killed and or locked up because of prop 8.
Just give us a rough estimate to shake up the masses.
theindependenteye
02-10-2009, 11:47 PM
>>>If I may, I'm going to ask you another favor. Please watch this video below. You just might be singing a different tune:
YouTube - Christian Anti-Defamation League: "Bashing" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20M9ywn7Zgs)
Dear Edward—
Thanks for the link. I watched it. and it's very well done, makes its point very clearly. I doubt that any well-informed person would argue that there's not a lot of violence and other forms of persecution, both organized and disorganized, against gays.
But I have to agree with Jeff that the video doesn't support the point you're making, which as I understand it is that this kind of violence is the precursor of death camps, or that there's a moral equivalence between various attacks by rabid individuals and systematic, state-sponsored extermination of large categories of the population.
It seems to me that insisting on this kind of equation in fact tends to undermine the LGBT movement itself. I don't think social movements are well served (except for very short-term gains) by donning their victimhoods too long and downplaying the advances that have been made.
When I was a kid in Iowa in the mid-1950's, a bit over 50 years ago, no one in our town could have remotely imagined—
* That an openly gay person could keep any job, except maybe hairdressers in New York;
* That a known-gay person would be allowed to teach, even at the university level;
* That gay bars would some day not be universally mob-controlled and harassed by police;
* That gays would ever be portrayed in movies or tv as anything but absurdly hyper-swish;
* That bookstores would ever have shelves devoted to gay literature;
* That any town would conceivably pass ordinances prohibiting discrimination against gays in housing;
* That any actor could maintain a career if publicly known to be gay;
* That any gay anywhere could be elected to public office;
* That gays-in-the-military would ever be seriously considered;
* That a majority (or even a substantial minority) of the American public would ever regard gays as anything other than sick, twisted, perverted, dangerous or pitiful;
* That any states would ever decriminalize homosexual acts between consenting adults;
* That marriage between gays would ever be seriously proposed, much less regarded as a Constitutionally-protected right;
* And that calling them fags, fairies, or queers wasn't just the natural thing to do.
All that certainly doesn't gainsay that there's an enormous amount of violence and rage directed at gays, much of it (I think) as backlash spurred by the enormous successes of the movement and the beleaguered sense of disenfranchisement on the part of the Radical Right and the Lumpenproletariat. Or that parts of the country aren't still 50 years behind the times.
But I think the list above argues against your proposition that these instances of violence or the organized "marriage-protection" movements signal a vast likelihood of state terror against this population. I see the tide moving very much in the opposite direction, though I'm not going to argue that the tide could never reverse. But how does your idea of the movement's dire failure serve the movement?
Peace & joy—
Conrad
Valley Oak
02-11-2009, 12:12 AM
Well, OK. Maybe I did exaggerate a little bit. Your points are well taken. In the whole, society is moving more in the direction of equality and certainly not death camps. But the popularly voted passage and state supported prohibition of gay marriage is a very disturbing and alarming slide in the wrong direction. (And there was a gradual taking away of rights from Jews in Germany before the camps and extermination.) I just hope it doesn't get any worse than it is now in California and that we can get people's rights back in the near future. I will continue to struggle for gay marriage rights as I did for the Nov 4 elections.
Thanks,
Edward
>>>If I may, I'm going to ask you another favor. Please watch this video below. You just might be singing a different tune:
YouTube - Christian Anti-Defamation League: "Bashing" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20M9ywn7Zgs)
Dear Edward—
Thanks for the link. I watched it. and it's very well done, makes its point very clearly. I doubt that any well-informed person would argue that there's not a lot of violence and other forms of persecution, both organized and disorganized, against gays.
But I have to agree with Jeff that the video doesn't support the point you're making, which as I understand it is that this kind of violence is the precursor of death camps, or that there's a moral equivalence between various attacks by rabid individuals and systematic, state-sponsored extermination of large categories of the population.
It seems to me that insisting on this kind of equation in fact tends to undermine the LGBT movement itself. I don't think social movements are well served (except for very short-term gains) by donning their victimhoods too long and downplaying the advances that have been made.
When I was a kid in Iowa in the mid-1950's, a bit over 50 years ago, no one in our town could have remotely imagined—
* That an openly gay person could keep any job, except maybe hairdressers in New York;
* That a known-gay person would be allowed to teach, even at the university level;
* That gay bars would some day not be universally mob-controlled and harassed by police;
* That gays would ever be portrayed in movies or tv as anything but absurdly hyper-swish;
* That bookstores would ever have shelves devoted to gay literature;
* That any town would conceivably pass ordinances prohibiting discrimination against gays in housing;
* That any actor could maintain a career if publicly known to be gay;
* That any gay anywhere could be elected to public office;
* That gays-in-the-military would ever be seriously considered;
* That a majority (or even a substantial minority) of the American public would ever regard gays as anything other than sick, twisted, perverted, dangerous or pitiful;
* That any states would ever decriminalize homosexual acts between consenting adults;
* That marriage between gays would ever be seriously proposed, much less regarded as a Constitutionally-protected right;
* And that calling them fags, fairies, or queers wasn't just the natural thing to do.
All that certainly doesn't gainsay that there's an enormous amount of violence and rage directed at gays, much of it (I think) as backlash spurred by the enormous successes of the movement and the beleaguered sense of disenfranchisement on the part of the Radical Right and the Lumpenproletariat. Or that parts of the country aren't still 50 years behind the times.
But I think the list above argues against your proposition that these instances of violence or the organized "marriage-protection" movements signal a vast likelihood of state terror against this population. I see the tide moving very much in the opposite direction, though I'm not going to argue that the tide could never reverse. But how does your idea of the movement's dire failure serve the movement?
Peace & joy—
Conrad
MsTerry
02-11-2009, 08:03 AM
I will continue to struggle for gay marriage rights as I did for the Nov 4 elections.
Thanks,
Edward
As I recall it, you are sitting on $1million.
Why don't you put your money where your mouth is.....................
Valley Oak
02-11-2009, 08:47 AM
The money is tied up in assets and not available to me in liquid. I can't touch it; I can only move it to a new investment that is more lucrative or more secure. (I cannot just spend it and then have no income as a consequence, especially in these times.)
Thank you nonetheless,
Edward
As I recall it, you are sitting on $1million.
Why don't you put your money where your mouth is.....................
MsTerry
02-11-2009, 09:09 AM
LMAO
Here you are preaching freedom from oppression and in the mean time you keep your money tied up and repressing your freedom of expressing it.
How Ironic life can be!
The money is tied up in assets and not available to me in liquid. I can't touch it; I can only move it to a new investment that is more lucrative or more secure. (I cannot just spend it and then have no income as a consequence, especially in these times.)
Thank you nonetheless,
Edward
Valley Oak
02-11-2009, 09:14 AM
I need to eat :-p
We should have a ballot initiative prohibiting irony.
Edward
LMAO
Here you are preaching freedom from oppression and in the mean time you keep your money tied up and repressing your freedom of expressing it.
How Ironic life can be!
Hot Compost
02-11-2009, 12:28 PM
I need to eat :-p
We should have a ballot initiative prohibiting irony.
Edward
i think this whole conversation relates to what Shepherd was talking about with agoro-therapy (therapeutic benefits of farming).
after 9-11, i didn't really feel "normal" for a few months, until i went to an ocean park, full of kelp beds, huge sea bass, and the occasional great white.
Prop 8 was a creation of a slightly sick society, and it's good to escape from that society and remember that you will not be judged adversely by parsnip, cows, groupers, seals, and all other beings in the natural world. regardless of your sexual identification.
Valley Oak
02-12-2009, 02:32 PM
I have posted these two private emails to me, authorized to do so by Art, the person who sent them to me. I asked him to take our private discussion to the forum to give other people an opportunity to comment if they wished to do so.
I believe that Art's opinions are sincere, even though I don't agree with them. And I also believe that he represents the concerns and views of many other people who simply choose to stay silent but whose influence has an impact on foreign public policy here in the U.S., Israel, and elsewhere. If we take into account the statements made by leading U.S. politicians regarding the recent actions of the Israeli State in the area of Gaza, then he is in good company, quite possibly the majority, right here in the U.S.
Art's emails to me are below.
Edward
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Email # 1:
If you can, slip my commentary (forward) to the website.
However, I view this as your own copout. Like so many here, you fail to answer the FACTS set forth...but would rather make unapologetic evil charges against Jews, readily! ...as seen in THIS thread's beginning, and following. History provides perspective and a better understanding of the present. BUT....
...the vast majority of the anti-Israelis are ignorant of history if it didn't occur in the last 10 years or so....as is apparent by their posts.
The rant about Homosexuals being subject to the same kind of bigotry/killings etc. as this other minority, the Jews,were for 2000 years only serves to emphasize your own complicity in THAT horrendous killer bigotry by attaching your allegiance to these arabs who are substiting themselves for the very group you deplore...and yet you want awareness and empathy for your group to protect it against the VERY same horrors by like minded people. Can you be any more of a hypocrite than that?!!
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Email # 2:
It also would be good if you were able to defend Israelis and Jews from the urge to eliminate them from the face of the earth...as in Hamas, inspired by the Nazis...the same gang that would also eliminate all homosexuals.
Our history is 3000 years long and focused mainly in the middle East which has been their country's home until it was taken away by invaders from Rome and Christians. Reality, and history show the Jews to have been forced to be wanderers (the "Diaspora") through the world when they were "removed" from their home by them.
Zionism is the hope and plan that Jews would return to and once again have their own home as the only refuge from the pogroms, death from the crusaders, the inquisition, the nazis and now the arabs. It was conceived when a group of Jews came to understand that the only way to save the Jewish people from theongoping mass extrmination was to have a place of their own, NOT subject to such murderings torturing, rapes, and confiscations in counrties not their own.
The anti-Israelis LOVE to call Zionism a scourge without any conception of its birth and reasons for necessity for survival. THAT is no less than the same rumblings and murdereous hatred that we've had to be subjected to for those 2000 years...anbd now by Hamas and their anti-Israeli enablers.
From the postings YOU began at this thread, it seems apparent you have joined them.
NOT justifiable for a person who claims horrendous discrimination and killings from that GANG, but feels it OK to join them vs, Israel, dependent on false statements and situations of Israeli responses to
murderous intentions and actions.
Your MURDEROUS FALSE and INCOMPREHENSIBLE support of Nazi-like Hamas/Arab murders of Jews makes your OWN pleas for group justice hollow.
Only if you sit back and re-assess the present in light of the far and recent past will your rational mind overcome your actual hatred...Where does it come from??
Do you have that kind of courage of inquiry??
Sorry that you can feel comfort in such 2000 years of these true horrors against MY group.