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sharingwisdom
02-02-2009, 05:52 PM
I've been reading that researchers at Greenpeace have reprimanded Apple for releasing products made with Phthalates which are used to give iPhone and iPod headphones cords their flexibility. Phthalates are hormone disrupters. I just bought a new 4th gen Ipod before I read this, and since this article was from over a year ago, I was wondering if anyone knows if Apple changed the material it's using. I wrote to a company back east who sells them but haven't heard back. Thanks

Braggi
02-02-2009, 08:47 PM
...Phthalates are hormone disrupters. ...

You might want to look up how many people have actually been harmed by plastics that contain pthalates before becoming very concerned about your own health.

Read here, for instance: Male Fertility Not Harmed By Phthalates - News, Search Jobs, Events (https://www.biospace.com/news_story.aspx?NewsEntityId=20603820)

It's fine to remove potentially harmful products from the market. It's not reasonable, however, to throw everything away that creates a tiny exposure to a chemical that is known to be harmless except in high doses. Plasticizer oils have been used in the plastics industry for generations now and those plastics workers would show harm long before the general public would. If the plastics workers were suffering, for instance, from infertility, that would raise red flags for me. But even then it must be understood their exposure is thousands of times higher than the average citizen. Perhaps more so if the citizen in question avoids a lot of plastics in their lives, as many of us do.

-Jeff

Zeno Swijtink
02-02-2009, 09:21 PM
I think generally fetuses and small children are of special concern. Also the idea that "the dosage makes the poison" (braggi on "tiny exposure ") has been shown not to be absolutely true. Some toxins are more toxic in smaller dosages!




You might want to look up how many people have actually been harmed by plastics that contain pthalates before becoming very concerned about your own health.

Read here, for instance: Male Fertility Not Harmed By Phthalates - News, Search Jobs, Events (https://www.biospace.com/news_story.aspx?NewsEntityId=20603820)

It's fine to remove potentially harmful products from the market. It's not reasonable, however, to throw everything away that creates a tiny exposure to a chemical that is known to be harmless except in high doses. Plasticizer oils have been used in the plastics industry for generations now and those plastics workers would show harm long before the general public would. If the plastics workers were suffering, for instance, from infertility, that would raise red flags for me. But even then it must be understood their exposure is thousands of times higher than the average citizen. Perhaps more so if the citizen in question avoids a lot of plastics in their lives, as many of us do.

-Jeff

MsTerry
02-02-2009, 10:06 PM
. Some toxins are more toxic in smaller dosages!
Care to link us with this paradox?

Braggi
02-02-2009, 10:16 PM
... the idea that "the dosage makes the poison" (braggi on "tiny exposure ") has been shown not to be absolutely true. Some toxins are more toxic in smaller dosages!

Quick, name three.

-Jeff

Sylph
02-02-2009, 11:46 PM
Quick, name three.

-Jeff

Sounds suspiciously 'homeopathic'!

sharingwisdom
02-03-2009, 12:00 AM
My health is top priority to me, Jeff. I'm not interested in statistics about how many people were actually harmed by plastics. There are many kinds of hormone disrupters that the public uses unknowingly besides in plastic. Toxins are cumulative and do not flush out like you have expressed before. I am just going to agree to disagree with you on this point.

My question was quite simple and not asking whether it was harmful, but if Apple has changed this material in it's earbud cord. If you don't know the answer, maybe someone else does. Thanks.



You might want to look up how many people have actually been harmed by plastics that contain pthalates before becoming very concerned about your own health.

Read here, for instance: Male Fertility Not Harmed By Phthalates - News, Search Jobs, Events (https://www.biospace.com/news_story.aspx?NewsEntityId=20603820)

It's fine to remove potentially harmful products from the market. It's not reasonable, however, to throw everything away that creates a tiny exposure to a chemical that is known to be harmless except in high doses. Plasticizer oils have been used in the plastics industry for generations now and those plastics workers would show harm long before the general public would. If the plastics workers were suffering, for instance, from infertility, that would raise red flags for me. But even then it must be understood their exposure is thousands of times higher than the average citizen. Perhaps more so if the citizen in question avoids a lot of plastics in their lives, as many of us do.

-Jeff

Zeno Swijtink
02-03-2009, 08:23 AM
Care to link us with this paradox?

I posted this message on SonomaWildlife earlier this year. It mentions the phenomenon, but does not give references. I have them here but need to dig them up, and post them later. Still the post is interesting I think because of the broad picture it paints. More later. -- Zeno

To: SonomaWildlife <[email protected]>
From: Zeno Swijtink <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:47:21 -0800
Subject: Re: [SonomaWildlife] NATION: Chemical Industry wants partnership
with Obama!

Read the perceptive analysis by Peter Montague below. It show how the TMDL approach is inadequate.

"A Total Maximum Daily Load (TMDL) is a regulatory term in the U.S. Clean Water Act (CWA), describing a value of the maximum amount of a pollutant that a body of water can receive while still meeting water quality standards.[1] Alternatively, TMDL is an allocation of that water pollutant deemed acceptable to the subject receiving waters." Total Maximum Daily Load - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TMDL)

- Zeno Swijtink, Moderator SonomaWildlife



CAN CHEMICALS BE REGULATED? (https://www.precaution.org/lib/09/prn_new_problems.090108.htm)
From: Rachel's Democracy & Health News #993, Jan. 8, 2009
By Peter Montague

In the past 20 years, four new discoveries have completely changed our understanding of chemical hazards.

1. Many chemicals can interfere with the hormone system

Beginning roughly 80 years ago, scientific studies started showing that some chemicals can interfere with growth, development, and behavior of animals, including humans. For 50 years these studies were generally ignored. Then during the 1980s, dozens of new studies -- often done in the Great Lakes region -- showed that male fish were being feminized, that female gulls were pairing up to sit on nests together... and so on. There were other effects as well, but the sex- related changes caught people's attention first.

In 1991 Theo Colborn pulled together a meeting at the Wingspread Conference Center in Racine, Wisconsin, which issued a consensus statement, "<https://www.endocrinedisruption.com/files/wingspread_consensus_statement.pdf>Chemically Induced Alterations in Sexual Development: The Wildlife/Human Connection." Subsequently Colborn and others published the popular book, <https://www.powells.com/biblio/17-9780452274143-0>Our Stolen Future.

Since that time, a flood of new studies have confirmed and reconfirmed that many industrial chemicals can interfere with the chemical signaling systems that coordinate all the biological activities that a living thing requires -- beginning at conception and ceasing only with death. (...) And the changes are not just sex-related -- the central nervous system is strongly affected, as is the immune system. "Endocrine disrupting" chemicals are all-purpose poisons.

With this new understanding of endocrine-disrupting chemicals, we have also learned that...

(a) the timing of exposure combines with the amount of exposure to produce a chemical's effect;

(b) in some cases low doses can be more effective (more damaging) than higher doses.

Thus this new understanding of toxicity has falsified Paracelsus's 450-year-old maxim, "The dose makes the poison." Today we know that often the timing makes the poison and that sometimes less is worse. (...) As you might imagine, this new understanding has greatly complicated the task of toxicity testing.

2. Chemical exposures in the womb can "program" a fetus for life

Scientists studying cell-signal-disrupting chemicals discovered "fetal programming" -- that the lifelong development of a human can sometimes be permanently determined by chemical exposures in the womb, including chronic diseases that may only become apparent in middle age (cancer, adult-onset asthma, diabetes, etc.) (...) This, too, has greatly complicated the task of toxicity testing.

3. "You are what your grandmother ate."

In recent years, an entirely new theory of genetic inheritance -- called epigenetics -- has become widely (if not yet universally) accepted. Epigenetics tells us that environmental influences on cells can be inherited even though the structure of the cell's DNA has not been fundamentally altered. A generation ago, such a concept was considered heresy, unthinkable really. This new knowledge means that environmental influences are far more important than anyone understood previously. (One popular expression of this understanding is, "You are what your grandmother ate.") (See Rachel's #876.) Many scientists believe that epigenetic changes contribute importantly to fetal programming and to the initiation of cancers and other chronic diseases that only become apparent years or decades later. Ask yourself, how can you rapidly test a chemical to see if it will cause a chronic disease years in the future?

4. The "cocktail" effect

<https://www.precaution.org/lib/07/prn_toxic_cocktail.070903.htm>Many studies now show that exposure to "insignificant" doses of several chemicals can combine to produce significant effects. In other words, simultaneous exposure to very "low" doses of several chemicals can cause biological effects that none of the chemicals alone could cause. British toxicologist Andreas Kortenkamp calls this the "something from nothing" effect. And U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) scientist Earl Gray calls this phenomenon "the new math -- zero plus zero equals something."

Initially scientists assumed that only chemicals acting by a particular biological mechanism could combine to produce an effect. But more recently, experiments have shown that chemicals acting by a variety of biological mechanisms can combine to produce a single effect. When we are exposed to a mixture of chemicals, "Every mixture component contributes to the effect, no matter how small," says Andreas Kortenkamp.

These four new understandings of chemicals make chemical regulation a daunting task, to put it mildly.

First you need to know the potency of each single chemical, which biological tissues it affects in what ways, and whether a population will be exposed to other chemicals that affect the same tissues. Then you must test groups of chemicals in combinations at low doses and high doses, and several doses in between. Then you need to determine whether the creature being studied (rat, bird, human, or whatever) is affected by this combination of chemicals at one particular stage of life and not at other stages. For example in the case of humans we know that, during gestation in the womb, exposure during one particular week may produces effects not seen when exposure occurs during a different week.

Now consider the actual environment in which exposures to humans are presently occurring. Here is the opening paragraph from <https://www.precaution.org/lib/07/prn_toxic_cocktail.070903.htm>an article in New Scientist magazine in late 2007:

"Today, and every day, you can expect to be exposed to some 75,000 artificial chemicals. All day long you will be breathing them in, absorbing them through your skin and swallowing them in your food. Throughout the night they will seep out of carpets, pillows and curtains, and drift into your lungs. Living in this chemical soup is an inescapable side effect of 21st-century living. The question is: is it doing us any harm?

"There are good reasons to think that it might be. Not because of the action of any one chemical but because of the way the effects of different components combine once they are inside the body."

Taken together, these new understandings of toxicity make thorough premarket chemical testing not merely difficult, but impossible. The steps required are far too cumbersome, complex, and -- most importantly -- expensive. Thorough testing is not going to happen. Scientists (or advocates) who says it is are kidding us (or themselves).

Not convinced? Suppose we wanted to test just 1000 chemicals in unique combinations of 5 chemicals. Then we'd have to test 8,250,291,250,200 (yes, 8 trillion) unique groups of chemicals.[1] If we assume we could test a million combinations each year (a wildly optimistic assumption), then it would take us 8,000 years to complete the task. And we are presently putting <https://www.precaution.org/prn_new_chemicals_not_tested.050714.htm>700 new chemicals into commercial channels each year.

No, chemicals are not going to be thoroughly tested before being marketed, especially not in combination with other chemicals already on the market.

These new understandings of chemical toxicity will eventually drive almost everyone to the conclusion that broad screening principles must be applied before individual chemical tests -- thus requiring us to far go beyond even the European Union's new chemicals policies. The <https://www.naturalstep.org/the-system-conditions>Swedish Natural Step principles would seem to be the place to start in designing a truly adequate and protective chemicals policy, but few in the U.S. are there yet. (See Rachel's #667-668.)

I don't want to be too gloomy, but I notice that most chemical policy activists are not mentioning the real problem with chemical regulation: the regulators are routinely captured by the corporations they regulate. This is at least as true under Democrats as it is under Republicans.

To their credit, chemicals policy activists have petitioned the Obama administration for a well-though-out list of regulatory reforms. However in their "<https://www.precaution.org/lib/08/prn_chem_reform_for_obama.081124.htm>Letter of Principles for Toxic Chemical Regulatory Reform" (which I signed) to the Obama transition team, there is no mention -- zero -- of how to make regulations actually work. The letter spells out a vast array of requirements that could protect the public a little better from industrial poisons. But ideas for creating human regulatory agencies or departments that are independent of big money? Complete silence.

Former 30-year EPA employee William Sanjour in 1992 told us why regulatory agencies fail. We could probably all gain by carefully re-reading his essay, "<https://www.precaution.org/lib/why_epa_is_like_it_is.19920201.pdf>Why EPA is Like It Is, and What Can Be Done About It." (5 Mbytes PDF).

Chemical regulation is not a primarily a technical problem. It is primarily a human problem of money and political power. Many of us like to pretend that it's not, but pretending -- and hoping -- won't change what we're up against.

[1] Combination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination)

__._,_.___

***
<https://envirocentersoco.org/groups.htm> Links to Member Organizations - Sonoma County Conservation Council (https://envirocentersoco.org/groups.htm)

<https://www.envirocentersoco.org/eventcalendar> Environmental Events Calendar (https://www.envirocentersoco.org/eventcalendar)

<https://www.scwatercoalition.org>The Sonoma County Water Coalition (SCWC) (https://www.scwatercoalition.org)

<https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=ncriverwatch%40gmail.com>Northern California River Watch - Action Calendar (https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=ncriverwatch%40gmail.com)

<https://www.russianriverwatershed.net>Russian River Interactive Information System (https://www.russianriverwatershed.net)

Zeno Swijtink
02-03-2009, 09:17 AM
I posted this message on SonomaWildlife earlier this year. It mentions the phenomenon, but does not give references. I have them here but need to dig them up, and post them later. Still the post is interesting I think because of the broad picture it paints. More later. --

This is from #755 - Paracelsus Revisited -- Part 2, 30-Oct-2002 | Environmental Research Foundation (https://rachel.org/en/node/5589)

I think the ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH PERSPECTIVES (EHP), a peer-reviewed journal published by the National Institutes of Health, is free online, but if it's not, and any of you wants to follow this, ask me and I will dig them up. - Zeno




There are other serious problems with chemical regulations
premised on the idea that "the dose makes the poison." The phrase
assumes that the greater the dose the stronger the poison.
Because of this assumption, chemicals are routinely tested on
laboratory animals in high doses because high doses are assumed
to provoke the greatest effect.

We now know that this is not always true and that sometimes the
opposite is true. Sometimes low doses produce greater effects
than high doses. For example, in RACHEL'S #754, we described a
study of Bisphenol A which found that low doses of Bisphenol A
produced a greater biological effect than higher doses. (EHP Vol.
109, No. 7 [July 2001], pgs. 675-680.) In other words, the "dose
response curve" for Bisphenol A is shaped like an upside-down (or
inverted) letter U. Initially, as the dose rises, the response
rises. However, at some point as the dose continues to rise the
response stops rising, then begins to diminish and falls back
toward zero.

It is now well-established that many hormone-disrupting chemicals
exhibit this inverted-U dose-response curve. Such chemicals
disrupt hormones at low doses but not at high doses. What seems
to happen is that the hormone system becomes overwhelmed and
stops responding, so at high doses there is no observable effect.
This turns Paracelsus on his head.

In addition to the Bisphenol A study mentioned above, two other
studies published recently in EHP demonstrate an inverted-U
dose-response curve. First, phytoestrogens (estrogens in plants,
such as soybeans) at low doses inhibit the production of
estrogen; at higher doses the inhibitory effect disappears and
the phytoestrogens behave like estrogen itself, adding to the
effect of the body's own natural estrogen. The dose-response
curve is an inverted U. (This may explain why low doses of
phytoestrogens protect against breast cancer, the authors say.
See EHP Vol. 110, No. 8 [August 2002], pgs. 743-748.)

Second, a study of adult male guppy fish, exposed to certain
pesticides in their food (vinclozolin and DDE, which are known to
disrupt male sex hormones) exhibited shrunken testes, a
significant reduction in numbers of sperm, and "a severe
disruption in male courtship behavior." Some of the measured
effects were greater at a lower dose, demonstrating an inverted-U
dose-response curve. (EHP Vol. 109, No. 10 [October 2001], pgs.
1063-1070.)

The authors of the guppy study did a literature search and found
over 100 published papers reporting an inverted-U dose-response
curve, so this phenomenon is well-established.

This means that traditional toxicological testing at high doses
may miss important effects that only occur at lower doses.
Therefore, low doses will have to be tested.

So Paracelsus's phrase should now be, "The dose of the mixture
makes the poison, but differently for genetically different
individuals and differently at different times during growth and
development, always mindful that lower doses may be more
poisonous than higher doses."

Braggi
02-03-2009, 09:42 AM
... It is now well-established that many hormone-disrupting chemicals
exhibit this inverted-U dose-response curve. Such chemicals
disrupt hormones at low doses but not at high doses. What seems
to happen is that the hormone system becomes overwhelmed and
stops responding, so at high doses there is no observable effect.
This turns Paracelsus on his head. ...

Except, that's a very wrong conclusion, well established or not. This displays the lack of quality thinking going on in too many research labs. [sigh!]

What this demonstrates is the body's uncanny ability to overcome the challenges of the environment and return to proper balance. Addiction specialists know this effect as "tolerance." Tolerance continues to build until toxicity occurs, usually at very high doses.

Your article is without merit.

-Jeff

Zeno Swijtink
02-03-2009, 11:09 AM
Except, that's a very wrong conclusion, well established or not. This displays the lack of quality thinking going on in too many research labs. [sigh!]

What this demonstrates is the body's uncanny ability to overcome the challenges of the environment and return to proper balance. Addiction specialists know this effect as "tolerance." Tolerance continues to build until toxicity occurs, usually at very high doses.

Your article is without merit.

-Jeff

I do not see how you can interpret the findings of

https://www.ehponline.org/members/2001/109p675-680rubin/rubin.pdf

as a simple building up of tolerance. It's not a temporal effect.


https://www.sonoma.edu/users/s/swijtink/other/bisphenol.png

Braggi
02-03-2009, 12:56 PM
I do not see how you can interpret the findings of

https://www.ehponline.org/members/2001/109p675-680rubin/rubin.pdf

as a simple building up of tolerance. It's not a temporal effect.

Actually, based on that snippet, cause and effect isn't clear. Perhaps this is cause to do more research, but it's not an industry related bottom line of any kind. This kind of study isn't the stuff regulations should be based on, but the curiosity of the researchers should be aroused and that should show up in their findings which it did. Now they should find out the mechanism. Upon closer inspection, I think simple tolerance will explain it away.

I'm certainly being flip dismissing your article out of hand, but if taken as truth we should all increase our exposure to toxins to protect ourselves from them. Sorry, that's nonsense.

I'm all for reducing dependence on plastics and all the chemical garbage that goes into all of them. However, I'm not afraid of earphone cables or using other plastic items. My concern is with the environment over personal exposure risk. The fact that we continue to live longer, healthier, happier lives the more plastic we surround ourselves with does not implicate plastic in health concerns. I don't like the way we make plastic or the fact that it's a really dirty business in a lot of ways. I'd like it if we used a whole lot less of it. Ear buds have to be one of the lowest exposure risks around. Food packaging should be more of a concern, if any.

Is there any evidence that any molecules of any chemical are absorbed into the bloodstream from any ear buds or their cables? I doubt it. Start there, then bring on the quantitative analyses.

-Jeff

Zeno Swijtink
02-03-2009, 02:17 PM
I'm certainly being flip dismissing your article out of hand, but if taken as truth we should all increase our exposure to toxins to protect ourselves from them. Sorry, that's nonsense.

Flippant? You?

You know already that there are also cases where we need just a little of a toxin.

See: O Renn. An ethical appraisal of hormesis: toward a rational discourse on the acceptability of risks and benefits. Human & Experimental Toxicology (2008) 27: 627–642 (https://www.sonoma.edu/users/s/swijtink/other/ethical%20appraisal%20of%20hormesis.pdf)

Braggi
02-03-2009, 03:08 PM
Flippant? You? ...

Shocking, huh?

As always, Zeno, your contributions here are appreciated, even when they're wrong. :wink:

-Jeff

Dynamique
02-03-2009, 08:43 PM
It is becoming apparent that all of the endocrine disruptors and estrogen mimics fall into this category. They seem to be more bio-active below a certain threshold and then above another, higher threshold start doing the opposite of the small-dose effects. The linear model just does not apply to these substances because they are hormones rather than toxins. Again, in vitro does not equal in vivo.

Here's one name for you: Bisphenol-A (BPA). This month's issue of Fast Company mangazine has an excellent article on BPA and the appalling "research spinning" around this substance and others like it. You can read the online version for yourself at
The Real Story on BPA | Fast Company (https://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/132/the-real-story-on-bpa.html)



Quick, name three.

-Jeff

Braggi
02-04-2009, 09:22 AM
... Also the idea that "the dosage makes the poison" (braggi on "tiny exposure ") has been shown not to be absolutely true. Some toxins are more toxic in smaller dosages!

This thread is talking about two different but similar things. One is toxicity the other activity. The statement made by Zeno above is, basically wrong, although, had he described "activity" instead of toxicity, he might have been closer to correct.

LSD is one such compound. In tiny doses it is quite active and once receptor sites are flooded and neurotransmitters are depleted (in a person inebriated by LSD) feeding the person a larger dose makes no difference in effects. It's kind of like an itch cream based on menthol or capsaicin (from chiles) that functions by overloading nerve endings with other stimulation.

I can see an artificial hormone working that way, but not a true toxin. Another point is that larger doses would cause the same reaction, not less of a reaction, so the notion that a lesser dose is more harmful, which is clearly implied in this thread and stated directly by Zeno, is off base.

The article posted by Dynamique is clearly a hit piece based more on opinion than facts, but I'm not here to defend plastics which I fully agree we should do away with as much as we reasonably can. The key word is reasonably. It makes no sense to go through our homes and throw away everything made of plastic because of an author getting overwrought about possible harm when little to none has been shown.

My kids never drank from a plastic baby bottle and mostly never drank from a bottle at all. I recommend against them for a lot of reasons, but your ear buds aren't going to cause you harm except to your hearing. I much prefer Sennheiser style open air, over the ear headphones. Ear buds don't even work for me.

Best of luck with your iPods and your hormones, natural and artificial.

-Jeff

MsTerry
02-04-2009, 09:36 AM
I'm certainly being flip dismissing your article out of hand, but if taken as truth we should all increase our exposure to toxins to protect ourselves from them. Sorry, that's nonsense.
-Jeff
Isn't that the theory behind vaccines?

Braggi
02-04-2009, 10:25 AM
Isn't that the theory behind vaccines?

No.

-Jeff

Zeno Swijtink
02-04-2009, 07:31 PM
Another point is that larger doses would cause the same reaction, not less of a reaction, so the notion that a lesser dose is more harmful, which is clearly implied in this thread and stated directly by Zeno, is off base.


Speaking in such a pontifical manner does not make an interesting conversation.

I gave a citation and paper where the lesser dose had a stronger effect than the somewhat larger dose. This could not be explained by developing a "tolerance" since different samples were exposed to the different doses.

I didn't claim this was always so. These cases I pointed at may be rare. But I brought them up to show that the area of toxicity is complicated, and shows some surprising phenomena.

If you think the study is flawed in some way that invalidates this particular result you need to be more discursive. Just playing the Medical Magus of Healdsburg does not cut it.

MsTerry
02-04-2009, 07:39 PM
No.

-JeffVaccines containing live, attenuated virus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attenuated_virus) microorganisms - these are live micro-organisms that have been cultivated under conditions that disable their virulent properties or which use closely-related but less dangerous organisms to produce a broad immune response. They typically provoke more durable immunological responses and are the preferred type for healthy adults. Examples include yellow fever (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_fever), measles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles), rubella (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubella), and mumps (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumps).

Braggi
02-04-2009, 08:19 PM
... But I brought them up to show that the area of toxicity is complicated, and shows some surprising phenomena.

If you think the study is flawed in some way that invalidates this particular result you need to be more discursive. ...

I'm tired of this Zeno. We all agree that harmful substances should be avoided and not even created if it makes sense to follow that path. We agree.

-Jeff

Braggi
02-04-2009, 08:30 PM
Vaccines containing live, attenuated virus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attenuated_virus) microorganisms - these are live micro-organisms that have been cultivated under conditions that disable their virulent properties or which use closely-related but less dangerous organisms to produce a broad immune response. They typically provoke more durable immunological responses and are the preferred type for healthy adults. Examples include yellow fever (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_fever), measles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles), rubella (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubella), and mumps (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumps).

You're learning. Don't stop now.

-Jeff

PS. Hint: Now compare what you've learned about vaccination with the body's response to a toxin.

Zeno Swijtink
02-04-2009, 08:32 PM
I'm tired of this Zeno. We all agree that harmful substances should be avoided and not even created if it makes sense to follow that path. We agree.

-Jeff

For someone with such a big mouth you get tired too soon. We didn't agree (I was "wrong," and "off base"), and if you have some insight that I can learn from I like to hear it.

Braggi
02-04-2009, 09:33 PM
For someone with such a big mouth you get tired too soon. We didn't agree (I was "wrong," and "off base"), and if you have some insight that I can learn from I like to hear it.

I've offended you. I apologize for that. OK, let's take it a step further.

Do you agree that a compound can be active in the body but not toxic?
... that there is a difference between an active compound and a toxic one?
... that it is possible that a compound can be both active and toxic?

We have to start with assumptions and clarity of semantics because some of our conversation is stuck there.

-Jeff

Zeno Swijtink
02-05-2009, 09:45 PM
Do you agree that a compound can be active in the body but not toxic?
... that there is a difference between an active compound and a toxic one?
... that it is possible that a compound can be both active and toxic?


In form, you start with a quiz.

Do you agree that a compound can be active in the body but not toxic?
Answer: I do.

... that there is a difference between an active compound and a toxic one?
Answer: A toxic compount is active, but not all active ones are toxic.

... that it is possible that a compound (is) be both active and toxic?
Answer: of course; In fact, a compound cannot be toxic witout being active.

Braggi
02-06-2009, 09:22 AM
... that there is a difference between an active compound and a toxic one?
Answer: A toxic compount is active, but not all active ones are toxic.

... that it is possible that a compound (is) be both active and toxic?
Answer: of course; In fact, a compound cannot be toxic witout being active.

I think of lead as a very toxic substance that has little activity. I think of LSD as a very active compound that isn't toxic.

I think these compounds that are similar to hormones as something in between. One reason there is so much disagreement about the dangers of these chemicals is that they are exceedingly difficult to study, most specifically in how they affect humans. Hormones can work very differently in rodents than in humans. Primates would be better to study in this regard, but at a very high cost (since I consider primates part of the greater human family I have a real aversion to using primates to study the harm chemicals cause). So there is a research conundrum. How do we know these substances really do cause harm in humans the way they do in rats? Answer: we don't. So we need to broaden our research to include actual human exposures and what happens after humans are exposed, and how it effects growth and development, genetics etc.

Part of the problems with going into this kind of research is that double blind studies are impossible, but useful conclusions can still be drawn.

Getting back to statements that you, Zeno, and that some researchers make that I take issue with. My issue may seem minor, but I think it's significant. The error in thinking leads the reader to incorrect conclusions and, knowing our culture's industrial thinking could lead to serious errors in product creation and distribution.


" ... In addition to the Bisphenol A study mentioned above, two other
studies published recently in EHP demonstrate an inverted-U
dose-response curve. First, phytoestrogens (estrogens in plants,
such as soybeans) at low doses inhibit the production of
estrogen; at higher doses the inhibitory effect disappears and
the phytoestrogens behave like estrogen itself, adding to the
effect of the body's own natural estrogen. The dose-response
curve is an inverted U. (This may explain why low doses of
phytoestrogens protect against breast cancer, the authors say.
See EHP Vol. 110, No. 8 [August 2002], pgs. 743-748.)"

This quote is OK as far as it goes. What it lacks is the continuity of thinking that leads to bottom lines that are useful for the consumer. Yes, low doses of phytoestrogens in soy products are protective against breast cancer. I would call that an anti toxic effect. At medium doses the inhibitory effect disappears. So it's neutral, but not toxic. At high doses, and this isn't mentioned in this clip nor in the article at all as far as i know, the phytoestrogen effect is so strong that breast cancer rates skyrocket. In Japan, for instance, the highest breast cancer rates are found among those who eat the most soy products. How about that? Soy causes cancer.

So at low doses the compounds are active. At medium doses become less active, and at high doses become toxic.

This is not what you stated here:
Zeno Swijtink wrote:
... Also the idea that "the dosage makes the poison" (braggi on "tiny exposure ") has been shown not to be absolutely true. Some toxins are more toxic in smaller dosages!

In this case what you stated is in error. You are wrong. Please don't be offended. I had no intent to offend. I'm just pointing out a fact.

Getting back to the practical and that which affects our lives directly and that which began this convoluted thread: I've not seen any studies that show any harmful chemicals are absorbed from earbuds in any amount that could be considered active, let alone toxic. And let's underline now that there is a big difference between active and toxic. Activity can be pretty easily determined and even measured. Toxicity is much more difficult to measure in certain categories of compounds.

What I've seen in the conclusion statement in far too many studies is really opinion and not fact. Calling an active compound a toxin is either correct or very wrong and the opinion and political mindset of the writer can paint either a rosy picture (sure it's active but not harmful) versus a damning conclusion (by calling a compound a toxin even in situations where it's not toxic the whole of a conclusion is painted in a negative light).

So, you get my drift Zeno? Not all active compounds are toxic. Not everything that causes a measurable change in a rat will harm humans. Most "toxins" cause harm in dose related measure. If a compound is active but not toxic at a low enough dose, it's not necessarily harmful and therefore, use of the term toxin should be used only in context.


Zeno Swijtink wrote:
... It is now well-established that many hormone-disrupting chemicals
exhibit this inverted-U dose-response curve. Such chemicals
disrupt hormones at low doses but not at high doses. What seems
to happen is that the hormone system becomes overwhelmed and
stops responding, so at high doses there is no observable effect.
This turns Paracelsus on his head. ...

I don't think this concept turns Paracelsus on his head at all. I think he was spot on. The key statement here, that I referred to in a previous post without quoting it is: "... What seems to happen is that the hormone system becomes overwhelmed and stops responding,..." So, the researcher admits here that the system is overwhelmed and stops responding. That means the higher dose did do the same thing as the lower dose but no more. That's the definition of saturation. Keep dosing the subject and toxic effects begin to show up. But the initial effects are not necessarily toxic.

I'm sure that's clear as mud, but that's my thinking. I don't think it serves us to cry foul when no little or no harm has been shown. Removing all plastics from our lives isn't practical and would cause more harm than leaving them all in place. As we've increased exposure to plastic life spans have increased.

Although it makes sense to produce the most benign plastics we can come up with and minimize our exposure to all potentially harmful chemicals, it also makes sense to use what we have in the best possible ways.

Enjoy your ear buds. I prefer my over-the-ear Sennheisers.

-Jeff

Zeno Swijtink
02-06-2009, 09:15 PM
I think of lead as a very toxic substance that has little activity. I think of LSD as a very active compound that isn't toxic. (...)
I'm sure that's clear as mud, but that's my thinking.

I will not yet be saying that you are wrong, Jeff, but I do not follow you.

If lead toxicity is because of "the interaction of lead (Pb) with proteins" (Goering, 1993), how does that make lead having "little activity?" Your terminology sounds alchemistic.

In the mean time it would help me to hear from you how you read a dose-response curve, in particular, what does "response" mean to you?