Book Is Rallying Resistance to the Antivaccine Crusade [Archive]

Zeno Swijtink

01-14-2009, 08:33 AM

January 13, 2009

Book Is Rallying Resistance to the Antivaccine Crusade (https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/health/13auti.html)
By DONALD G. McNEIL Jr.

A new book defending vaccines, written by a doctor infuriated at the claim that they cause autism, is galvanizing a backlash against the antivaccine movement in the United States.

But there will be no book tour for the doctor, Paul A. Offit, author of “Autism’s False Prophets.” He has had too many death threats.

“I’ll speak at a conference, say, to nurses,” he said. “But I wouldn’t go into a bookstore and sign books. It can get nasty. There are parents who really believe that vaccines hurt their children, and to them, I’m incredibly evil. They hate me.”

Dr. Offit, a pediatrician, is a mild, funny and somewhat rumpled 57-year-old. The chief of infectious diseases at the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, he is also the co-inventor of a vaccine against rotavirus, a diarrheal disease that kills 60,000 children a year in poor countries.

“When Jonas Salk invented polio vaccine, he was a hero — and I’m a terrorist?” he jokes, referring to a placard denouncing him at a recent demonstration by antivaccine activists outside the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta.

In recent years, the debate over vaccines and autism, which began in fear and confusion, has hardened into anger. As Dr. Offit’s book details, numerous studies of thimerosal, measles virus and other alleged autism triggers in vaccines have been conducted, and hundreds of children with diagnoses of autism have undergone what he considers sham treatments and been “cured.” Both sides insist that the medical evidence backs them.

As a result, “a few years ago this ceased to be a civil scientific discourse and became about crucifying individuals,” said Dr. Gregory A. Poland, chief of vaccine research at the Mayo Clinic, who says he has had threats against his children. “Paul is a lightning rod, a figure who goes charging into the fray.”

Those backing Dr. Offit say he was forced into the role. Opponents of vaccines have held rallies, appeared on talk shows like “Oprah” and “Imus in the Morning,” been the heroes of made-for-TV movies and found a celebrity spokeswoman in Jenny McCarthy, the actress and former Playboy model who has an autistic son. Meanwhile, the response from public health officials has been muted and couched in dull scientific jargon.

“If the surgeon general or the secretary of health or the head of the C.D.C. would come out and make a really strong statement on this, I think the whole thing would go away,” said Dr. Peter J. Hotez, president of the Sabin Vaccine Institute, who has a severely autistic daughter whose disease, he argues, is genetic.

Asked why public health officials have been reticent, the acting surgeon general, Dr. Steven K. Galson, issued a statement saying that “childhood immunizations are one of the greatest achievements of all time” and that “scientific evidence clearly shows that vaccines do not contribute to autism.” He has spoken on issues like obesity, tobacco, air travel and exercise, but his office said he had not been questioned by journalists about vaccines and autism.

Dr. Offit’s book, published in September by Columbia University Press, has been widely endorsed by pediatricians, autism researchers, vaccine companies and medical journalists who say it sums up, in layman’s language, the scientific evidence for vaccines and forcefully argues that vulnerable parents are being manipulated by doctors promoting false cures and lawyers filing class-action suits.

“Opponents of vaccines have taken the autism story hostage,” Dr. Offit said. “They don’t speak for all parents of autistic kids, they use fringe scientists and celebrities, they’ve set up cottage industries of false hope, and they’re hurting kids. Parents pay out of their pockets for dangerous treatments, they take out second mortgages to buy hyperbaric oxygen chambers. It’s just unconscionable.”

His opponents dismiss him as “Dr. Proffit” because he received millions in royalties for his RotaTeq vaccine. One group he criticizes harshly in the book is Generation Rescue, which advocates treating autistic children with wheat- and dairy-free diets, vitamins and chelation to remove mercury from the body. Ms. McCarthy, her companion, the actor Jim Carrey, and Deirdre Imus, wife of the radio host, are all on its board.

J. B. Handley, who founded Generation Rescue in 2005, rejected Dr. Offit’s attacks, saying: “We have hundreds of fully recovered children. I’m very frustrated that Dr. Offit, who’s never treated an autistic child, is spending his time trying to refute the reality of biomedical recovery.”

He scoffed at the idea that Dr. Offit had had numerous death threats but condemned threats generally, saying he had received some himself. “No one should ever do that to another human being,” he said.

Dr. Offit now has his own celebrity ally, the actress Amanda Peet, who was introduced to him through a brother-in-law, a doctor at his Philadelphia hospital.

“Where I live in L.A.,” she said in a telephone interview, “there’s this child-rearing trend — only feed your kids organic food, detoxify your house. And there’s a lot of anticorporate fervor, anti-pharmaceutical company fervor.”

When she was pregnant, she said, “I’d have lunch with my friends who were moms, and they’d say they wouldn’t vaccinate, or would space out their vaccinations and hadn’t I heard?”

After quizzing several doctors in her family and Dr. Offit, she eventually agreed to become a spokeswoman for Every Child by Two, a vaccine-advocacy group founded by Rosalynn Carter, the former first lady.

In an interview with Cookie, a magazine for parents, Ms. Peet called antivaccine parents “parasites” because they relied on other children’s immunity to protect their own. She later apologized for the word but emphasized that parents should get their medical advice from doctors, “not from me or any other celebrity.”

Dr. Nancy J. Minshew, a neurologist at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center and a leading autism expert, said she had begun telling any parent asking about vaccines to read the Offit book. A brain-imaging specialist who gets no money from vaccine companies, she said she had never met or spoken with Dr. Offit.

Autism, she said, is one of many diseases, like dyslexia, Elephant Man’s disease, tuberous sclerosis and schizophrenia, that are caused by genetic flaws but show no symptoms for years.

She blamed journalists for “creating a conspiracy where there was none.” By acting as if there were two legitimate sides to the autism debate, she said, “the media has fed on this — it’s great for ratings.”

Many doctors now argue that reporters should treat the antivaccine lobby with the same indifference they do Holocaust deniers, AIDS deniers and those claiming to have proof that NASA faked the Moon landings.

Dr. Offit’s book traces the history of autism theories, starting with the child psychologist Bruno Bettelheim’s blaming “refrigerator mothers.” It describes early false cures, including “facilitated communication,” in which assistants helped mute children type their thoughts; head-squeezing by osteopaths; cod liver oil; diets; and a 1998 fad for secretin, a pig hormone. It sums up 16 epidemiological studies showing no link between autism and either measles or thimerosal, a vaccine preservative.

To the newer argument that vaccines overwhelm babies’ immune systems, Dr. Offit notes that current shots against 14 diseases contain 153 proteins, while babies cope with thousands of new foreign proteins daily in food, dirt and animal hair, and that the smallpox vaccine that nearly every American over age 30 got as a child contained 200 proteins.

Arthur Allen, the author of “Vaccine: The Controversial Story of Medicine’s Greatest Lifesaver” (W. W. Norton, 2007), has publicly debated other journalists who argue that vaccines cause autism. Six years ago, he wrote a seminal article in The New York Times Magazine titled “The Not-So-Crackpot Autism Theory.” He later changed his mind and now “feels bad” about the article, he said, “because it helped get these people into the field who did a lot of damage.”

Dr. Offit’s book “needed to be written,” he said. But he is skeptical that it will end the struggle.

“There are still people who believe fluoride is dangerous, who think jet contrails cause cancer,” he said. “I’m waiting for the debate to get beyond that, but you’re not going to convert some people.”

MsTerry

01-14-2009, 08:57 AM

Has this been proven false?

J. B. Handley, who founded Generation Rescue in 2005, rejected Dr. Offit’s attacks, saying: “We have hundreds of fully recovered children. I’m very frustrated that Dr. Offit, who’s never treated an autistic child, is spending his time trying to refute the reality of biomedical recovery.”

Braggi

01-14-2009, 09:39 AM

Has this been proven false?

Well, I think you need to consider the source.

I found this which speaks to J. B. Handley's grasp of science. What it shows is that Mr. Handley is unlikely to do a very good job of even evaluating the condition: Respectful Insolence: Fun with phone surveys and vaccines (https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/06/fun_with_phone_surveys.php)

Enjoy reading,

-Jeff

d-cat

01-15-2009, 01:11 PM

University of Calgary: How Mercury Causes Brain Neuron Damage
YouTube - How Mercury Causes Brain Neuron Damage - Uni. of Calgary (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU8nSn5Ezd8)

Hotspring 44

01-15-2009, 03:36 PM

<o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="country-region"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"></o:smarttagtype> Zeno Swijtink wrote: “There are still people who believe fluoride is dangerous, who think jet contrails cause cancer,” he said. “I’m waiting for the debate to get beyond that, but you’re not going to convert some people.” <o:p></o:p>
Here's a perfect example of someone is not going to “convert”. Fluoride - Side Effects & Dangers (https://www.douglassreport.com/reports/fluoride.html?gclid=CLvFl9a6kZgCFQwDGgodtT_4mQ) <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Not all jet contrails are created equal. <o:p></o:p>
Silver halide, for example is a neurotoxin in certain low dosage quantities. <o:p></o:p>
Tiny oxidized particles of Silver halide have been used to seed clouds, to produce rain. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
The term “Contrails” & the term “Chem-Trails” seem to be very commonly mistaken for each other. <o:p></o:p>
So to make the statement that “contrails”, which are basically water vapor and that it (the contrails”), are somehow connected with the CIA as in some sort of a plot is technically incorrect and basically absurd. <o:p></o:p>
These days’ contrails that people are sometimes referring to them as are more than just simply water vapor crystallized into ice accumulated in the thermal path that jets make when flying through the frigid upper atmosphere. <o:p></o:p>
Nowadays people refer to the “Chem-Trails as “Contrails” incorrectly. <o:p></o:p>
It would be all too easy to make fun of them but in reality, they have a case, you might actually be concerned about if you have young children that are still in their developing ages because certain oxidized metals are a definite health risk and others we just don't know yet they may or may not be. <o:p></o:p>
Judging from what I have read lately, there has been a huge amount of microscopic sized particles of aluminum, raining down from the atmosphere in certain areas in northern California that people have had independently tested, which have contained extremely large amounts of those materials compared to normal levels of same materials in those areas. <o:p></o:p>
About Chemtrails/Chemtrails or Contrails/Chemtrail FAQ's/Answers about Chemtrails and Contrails (https://www.willthomas.net/Chemtrails/About_Chemtrails.htm) <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
AEROSOL OPERATION CRIMES & COVER-UP (https://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Remember the legionnaire’s disease? And how it spread? NEWSMEAT ▷ Vets Sue CIA, Defense Over Military Experiments (https://www.newsmeat.com/news/meat.php?articleId=39914484&channelId=2951&buyerId=newsmeatcom&buid=3281) <o:p></o:p>
Yeah that's right, the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> military; I suppose some of us may be too young or too “busy” to even remember reading about that. Or maybe it's to some people, just a grain of salt. Oh well. To each his or her own I guess.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
You can thank the good old days of the Cold War and specifically the Ronald Regan administration for that particular debacle. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
As far as the vaccines are concerned however I basically agree with what was said about the main message the book is said to have in it. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I could go on and on about this particular subject. <o:p></o:p>
But I just don't have time or energy also, I have been at the computer too long of a time today everybody have very good day. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>

January 13, 2009

Book Is Rallying Resistance to the Antivaccine Crusade (https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/health/13auti.html)
By DONALD G. McNEIL Jr.

A new book defending vaccines, written by a doctor infuriated at the claim that they cause autism, is galvanizing a backlash against the antivaccine movement in the United States.

But there will be no book tour for the doctor, Paul A. Offit, author of “Autism’s False Prophets.” He has had too many death threats.

“I’ll speak at a conference, say, to nurses,” he said. “But I wouldn’t go into a bookstore and sign books. It can get nasty. There are parents who really believe that vaccines hurt their children, and to them, I’m incredibly evil. They hate me.”

Dr. Offit, a pediatrician, is a mild, funny and somewhat rumpled 57-year-old. The chief of infectious diseases at the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, he is also the co-inventor of a vaccine against rotavirus, a diarrheal disease that kills 60,000 children a year in poor countries.

“When Jonas Salk invented polio vaccine, he was a hero — and I’m a terrorist?” he jokes, referring to a placard denouncing him at a recent demonstration by antivaccine activists outside the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta.

In recent years, the debate over vaccines and autism, which began in fear and confusion, has hardened into anger. As Dr. Offit’s book details, numerous studies of thimerosal, measles virus and other alleged autism triggers in vaccines have been conducted, and hundreds of children with diagnoses of autism have undergone what he considers sham treatments and been “cured.” Both sides insist that the medical evidence backs them.

As a result, “a few years ago this ceased to be a civil scientific discourse and became about crucifying individuals,” said Dr. Gregory A. Poland, chief of vaccine research at the Mayo Clinic, who says he has had threats against his children. “Paul is a lightning rod, a figure who goes charging into the fray.”

Those backing Dr. Offit say he was forced into the role. Opponents of vaccines have held rallies, appeared on talk shows like “Oprah” and “Imus in the Morning,” been the heroes of made-for-TV movies and found a celebrity spokeswoman in Jenny McCarthy, the actress and former Playboy model who has an autistic son. Meanwhile, the response from public health officials has been muted and couched in dull scientific jargon.

“If the surgeon general or the secretary of health or the head of the C.D.C. would come out and make a really strong statement on this, I think the whole thing would go away,” said Dr. Peter J. Hotez, president of the Sabin Vaccine Institute, who has a severely autistic daughter whose disease, he argues, is genetic.

Asked why public health officials have been reticent, the acting surgeon general, Dr. Steven K. Galson, issued a statement saying that “childhood immunizations are one of the greatest achievements of all time” and that “scientific evidence clearly shows that vaccines do not contribute to autism.” He has spoken on issues like obesity, tobacco, air travel and exercise, but his office said he had not been questioned by journalists about vaccines and autism.

Dr. Offit’s book, published in September by Columbia University Press, has been widely endorsed by pediatricians, autism researchers, vaccine companies and medical journalists who say it sums up, in layman’s language, the scientific evidence for vaccines and forcefully argues that vulnerable parents are being manipulated by doctors promoting false cures and lawyers filing class-action suits.

“Opponents of vaccines have taken the autism story hostage,” Dr. Offit said. “They don’t speak for all parents of autistic kids, they use fringe scientists and celebrities, they’ve set up cottage industries of false hope, and they’re hurting kids. Parents pay out of their pockets for dangerous treatments, they take out second mortgages to buy hyperbaric oxygen chambers. It’s just unconscionable.”

His opponents dismiss him as “Dr. Proffit” because he received millions in royalties for his RotaTeq vaccine. One group he criticizes harshly in the book is Generation Rescue, which advocates treating autistic children with wheat- and dairy-free diets, vitamins and chelation to remove mercury from the body. Ms. McCarthy, her companion, the actor Jim Carrey, and Deirdre Imus, wife of the radio host, are all on its board.

J. B. Handley, who founded Generation Rescue in 2005, rejected Dr. Offit’s attacks, saying: “We have hundreds of fully recovered children. I’m very frustrated that Dr. Offit, who’s never treated an autistic child, is spending his time trying to refute the reality of biomedical recovery.”

He scoffed at the idea that Dr. Offit had had numerous death threats but condemned threats generally, saying he had received some himself. “No one should ever do that to another human being,” he said.

Dr. Offit now has his own celebrity ally, the actress Amanda Peet, who was introduced to him through a brother-in-law, a doctor at his Philadelphia hospital.

“Where I live in L.A.,” she said in a telephone interview, “there’s this child-rearing trend — only feed your kids organic food, detoxify your house. And there’s a lot of anticorporate fervor, anti-pharmaceutical company fervor.”

When she was pregnant, she said, “I’d have lunch with my friends who were moms, and they’d say they wouldn’t vaccinate, or would space out their vaccinations and hadn’t I heard?”

After quizzing several doctors in her family and Dr. Offit, she eventually agreed to become a spokeswoman for Every Child by Two, a vaccine-advocacy group founded by Rosalynn Carter, the former first lady.

In an interview with Cookie, a magazine for parents, Ms. Peet called antivaccine parents “parasites” because they relied on other children’s immunity to protect their own. She later apologized for the word but emphasized that parents should get their medical advice from doctors, “not from me or any other celebrity.”

Dr. Nancy J. Minshew, a neurologist at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center and a leading autism expert, said she had begun telling any parent asking about vaccines to read the Offit book. A brain-imaging specialist who gets no money from vaccine companies, she said she had never met or spoken with Dr. Offit.

Autism, she said, is one of many diseases, like dyslexia, Elephant Man’s disease, tuberous sclerosis and schizophrenia, that are caused by genetic flaws but show no symptoms for years.

She blamed journalists for “creating a conspiracy where there was none.” By acting as if there were two legitimate sides to the autism debate, she said, “the media has fed on this — it’s great for ratings.”

Many doctors now argue that reporters should treat the antivaccine lobby with the same indifference they do Holocaust deniers, AIDS deniers and those claiming to have proof that NASA faked the Moon landings.

Dr. Offit’s book traces the history of autism theories, starting with the child psychologist Bruno Bettelheim’s blaming “refrigerator mothers.” It describes early false cures, including “facilitated communication,” in which assistants helped mute children type their thoughts; head-squeezing by osteopaths; cod liver oil; diets; and a 1998 fad for secretin, a pig hormone. It sums up 16 epidemiological studies showing no link between autism and either measles or thimerosal, a vaccine preservative.

To the newer argument that vaccines overwhelm babies’ immune systems, Dr. Offit notes that current shots against 14 diseases contain 153 proteins, while babies cope with thousands of new foreign proteins daily in food, dirt and animal hair, and that the smallpox vaccine that nearly every American over age 30 got as a child contained 200 proteins.

Arthur Allen, the author of “Vaccine: The Controversial Story of Medicine’s Greatest Lifesaver” (W. W. Norton, 2007), has publicly debated other journalists who argue that vaccines cause autism. Six years ago, he wrote a seminal article in The New York Times Magazine titled “The Not-So-Crackpot Autism Theory.” He later changed his mind and now “feels bad” about the article, he said, “because it helped get these people into the field who did a lot of damage.”

Dr. Offit’s book “needed to be written,” he said. But he is skeptical that it will end the struggle.

“There are still people who believe fluoride is dangerous, who think jet contrails cause cancer,” he said. “I’m waiting for the debate to get beyond that, but you’re not going to convert some people.”

d-cat

01-15-2009, 05:50 PM

Many doctors now argue that reporters should treat the antivaccine lobby with the same indifference they do Holocaust deniers, AIDS deniers and those claiming to have proof that NASA faked the Moon landings.

This is a tactic often used by propagandists pushing something that isn't true. Another sign is when they refuse to have a debate, or face the people who challenge them. "I won't waste my time talking to such people." "The debate is over." I don't think I have ever seen Al Gore debate anyone on the issue of global warming, despite all the challenges he gets, most recently from the president of the Czech Republic. Probably just called him a "flat earther" instead.

Here is an example
RFK Jr calls Glen Beck fascist for questioning Global Warming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rp_hyN3jzI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT496-BLMvI

Braggi

01-15-2009, 06:56 PM

This is a tactic often used by propagandists pushing something that isn't true. Another sign is when they refuse to have a debate, or face the people who challenge them. ...

But d-cat, on this issue the actual scientists have weighed in over and over. The studies have been done. Vaccines save lives and they don't cause autism.

Read up.

-Jeff

Braggi

01-15-2009, 07:07 PM

d-cat, do a google search on "pre natal autism" and see what comes up. Since there are many factors that affect autism rates than can be measured before birth, please explain how it is that a vaccine caused that. Or is it that babies are now being vaccinated in the womb?

-Jeff

d-cat

01-17-2009, 06:37 AM

I've researched the subject and I will not take vaccines and my family will not take vaccines. If your research leads you to a different conclusion, then enjoy your mercury, and other vaccine ingredients such as formaldehyde, aluminium, MSG, aspartame...

INFORMED CHOICE - Cocktail (https://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html)

https://www.vaclib.org/exemption.htm

Braggi

01-17-2009, 08:03 AM

I've researched the subject and I will not take vaccines and my family will not take vaccines. If your research leads you to a different conclusion, then enjoy your mercury, and other vaccine ingredients such as formaldehyde, aluminium, MSG, aspartame...

Well, I realize science isn't your strong suit, but you might like to know that MSG is a natural, plant derived product and is completely non toxic. Enjoy your Chinese food and remember that it "... makes food flavors sing." (From an old Accent commercial.) Some tiny percent of the population is allergic to it but reactions are usually mild and temporary.

Aluminum? Perhaps you're worried that aluminum causes Alzheimer's disease? It doesn't, but then you'd have to follow science to know that. Avoid canned sodas and beer and you'll avoid most of the aluminum you'd ever come in contact with.

Aspartame? Another falsely accused chemical, but I avoid it because it tastes bad. Remember cyclamates? Probably not. That was the best tasting sugar substitute ever and was featured in the most popular "diet" beverages ever, Fanta and Tab. It was canned because of one bad study. When other studies showed it safe the government didn't relent and it's still outlawed. Bad science. Sugar's not really bad for you in reasonable amounts, so just use good, natural sugar and avoid bad tasting aspartame.

Formaldehyde? Humans aren't nearly as sensitive to it as most believe, but I'll agree with you I don't need any. See, we agree!

Now mercury. That's something we should look at. There isn't any in childhood vaccines. Hasn't been since 2001. Not because of science, but because of fears like yours. OK. No mercury. They still us a few molecules of it in flu vaccines (except for the "nasal spray" type) so avoid flu shots. Of course, the mercury in flu vaccines is of a type that isn't "available" to your body, so it just gets excreted, but you don't care about that. If you really really want to avoid mercury in your system, perhaps you should learn where mercury in our environment comes from and how to avoid it. It comes from burning coal, primarily. It's coal fired power plants that put the lion's share of mercury into our environment. So do everything you can to end our dependence on coal and you'll be doing a lot for yourself. Certain kinds of fish build up mercury in their tissues so you should learn what kinds of fish they are and avoid them. Albacore and swordfish are worst offenders if I remember right. Look it up. A serving of tuna can contain many dozens of times the mercury of a few vaccines. And the mercury in fish tissue is in a form that can cause harm.

You didn't mention arsenic but I will. A deadly poison? Yes? If every molecule of arsenic was removed from your body (yes, you've been poisoned) you'd die immediately. Same with copper which is certainly deadly poisonous above certain levels. I don't know about lead and mercury and uranium, but most of the elements are absolutely necessary for life. Fact is, we are born of the Earth and the parts that make up the Earth also make up us. It's the proportions that matter. Our bodies are designed to handle a certain amount of toxic substances. We have a nearly perfect "detoxifying" system built right in. It's working 24 hours a day. It's true that some people have damaged systems. Hepatitis and alcoholism damage the liver and folks with these conditions should be very careful about what they put in their systems. Most of us, thankfully, can handle occasional small doses of even pretty nasty toxins. It's the constant exposure we should really avoid. And yet, even industrial level exposures (as in 8 hour days) rarely cause the harm you'd expect. For instance: if electromagnetic radiation caused harm, the people to study are those who work with it all day long: computer professionals (the ones who work in big server farms), and electricians, and power company workers. Avoid some lone researcher working in a lab with a magnet and some cells under a microscope.

You should read up d-cat. And look to science instead of ignorant nutcases freaking out about things they don't understand as your sources of information.

Have a great life, choose to live in the light of knowledge rather than the fear of darkness, and please vaccinate your kids. Polio isn't a joke. It's real. Measles can maim and kill. Whooping cough is a horrible illness that can cause permanent harm. All these diseases are now coming back because of ignorant people choosing not to vaccinate. That's one of the saddest failures of our education system.

-Jeff

"Mad" Miles

01-17-2009, 09:47 AM

Braggi/Jeff, Everybody,

A note about mercury in our environment.

In, oh, 1996, I think, I organized the Chicago part of an international day of protest against the Canadian government, opposing their plans to build dams on the St. Marguerite river that feeds into Hudson Bay in northeast Canada.

These dams were primarily for hydroelectric power, destined for aluminum smelters, which require massive amounts of electricity. The power would also go for local use and sale to the U.S. north east. There was also some talk about the fresh water being sold to the U.S.. The existing power plants from the first two dams serve domestic use and smelting.

Among other things I learned while organizing the protest was that:

These previous dams created huge reservoirs, flooding lands that had been part of the forests and marshes that the indigenous Cree and Innu live on and with. With the reservoirs came natural mercury that leached out of the soil, into the water and into the food chain.

As the top predators in that ecosystem, predominantly because of fish consumption but also from other sources, these people have some of the highest levels of mercury recorded. Other than hatters in the 17th and 18th Centuries in Europe that is!

We marched on the Canadian consulate by the way, some twenty to thirty of us, down Michigan Avenue in the Loop. After picketing the entrance for a while, a consular official reluctantly met with four of us. (I declined, been there, done that.)

The project, SM3 (Saint Marguerite Three), has yet to be built.

Probably not because of our little effort, more because of larger protests in Canada and Europe. Most importantly because of the local opposition and the issues like the one I've just summarized. Sometimes you win, not often, but sometimes.

For Natural Wetlands and medically created disease immunity,

"Mad" Miles

:burngrnbounce:

MsTerry

01-17-2009, 10:09 AM

Jeff, you are ignorant now.
Just because you are vaccinated, that doesn't mean you can't get any of these diseases.
You are saying that polio is coming back because people don't vaccinate???
Come on, Jeff, you can do better than that.
What is the source of these ills? Where do they come from?

Measles can maim and kill. Whooping cough is a horrible illness that can cause permanent harm. All these diseases are now coming back because of ignorant people choosing not to vaccinate. That's one of the saddest failures of our education system.

-Jeff

Sylph

01-17-2009, 08:03 PM

You are saying that polio is coming back because people don't vaccinate???It's happening in Africa. In Nigeria, and spreading to surrounding countries. Children are paralyzed for life because people got scared of vaccines.
So, it's way off in Africa, how can it affect us?
We are more connected, in 2009, to the rest of the world, via travel and immigration than ever before....

"Despite a massive international effort to eradicate poliomyelitis, the disease is alive and well in some corners of the world. Several previously polio-free African countries have now become re-infected because of major outbreaks in northern Nigeria where, experts say, vaccine campaigns are flawed and failing."
A Scourge of Childhood Reemerges as Polio Spreads in Western Africa: Scientific American (https://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=polio-nigeria-outbreak-2008)

MsTerry

01-17-2009, 09:05 PM

Sylph, you didn't answer my question on how it is spread.
from your article

Polio is transmitted via the fecal-oral route: To catch the disease, a person must ingest the feces of an infected person. This happens relatively easily in areas with poor sanitation (https://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=human-waste-everything-you-ever-wan-2008-10-16) systems where drinking water is contaminated with sewage (https://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=sewage-reveals-patterns-of-illicit-2008-12-12) and human waste.

It's happening in Africa.

Sylph

01-17-2009, 09:33 PM

It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that a polio carrier (only one in 200 people exposed become ill) would come to the USA and prepare a salad for you in a local kitchen.
Good thing you probably had your vaccinations!

Sylph, you didn't answer my question on how it is spread.
from your article

Polio is transmitted via the fecal-oral route: To catch the disease, a person must ingest the feces of an infected person. This happens relatively easily in areas with poor sanitation (https://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=human-waste-everything-you-ever-wan-2008-10-16) systems where drinking water is contaminated with sewage (https://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=sewage-reveals-patterns-of-illicit-2008-12-12) and human waste.

Braggi

01-17-2009, 09:42 PM

It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that a polio carrier (only one in 200 people exposed become ill) would come to the USA and prepare a salad for you in a local kitchen. ...

The most likely route of transmission is from one child to another in a day care center, at a school etc.

It's also possible a person with less than stellar hygiene could have used the shopping cart ahead of you. You just never know, do you?

Vaccines work best when 95% or so of the population has been vaccinated. No individual is 100% guaranteed protection, but the odds are much better that you will avoid infection after exposure than a non-immunized person. That's a pretty good thing.

The best way for my child to be protected is if your child is also protected. Thanks for being responsible, loving and nurturing by vaccinating your kids.

-Jeff

Sylph

01-17-2009, 10:29 PM

The non-vaccinated had better stay out of Europe too! :):

"More than 12,000 cases of measles were reported in Europe in the two years spanning 2006 and 2007, a new study published in the Lancet has revealed.
All but 15% occurred in just five countries - the UK, Germany, Switzerland, Italy and Romania - and most were infections of unvaccinated or partially vaccinated children."
Measles: Europe Unlikely To Meet 2010 Ellimination Target After MMR Vaccination Slump | World News | Sky News (https://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Measles-Europe-Unlikely-To-Meet-2010-Ellimination-Target-After-MMR-Vaccination-Slump/Article/200901115198694?f=rss)

Here is an excellent, long article history of the vaccine debate in England:
spiked-essays | Essay | Anti-vaccination nation? (https://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CA6D2.htm)

MsTerry

01-18-2009, 09:28 AM

How many died?

"More than 12,000 cases of measles were reported in Europe in the two years spanning 2006 and 2007, a new study published in the Lancet has revealed

Braggi

01-18-2009, 09:37 AM

How many died?

Read up. You know how. (https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/health/13glob.html?ref=research)

Love,

-Jeff

Sylph

01-18-2009, 10:00 AM

Only 7 confirmed deaths in two years, (deaths that were completely unnecessary), but dire complications can occur. Thousands were hospitalized.
“Although measles in Europe might be perceived as a
mild disease, it still causes deaths; seven deaths were
reported during the 2 years of the study. The full extent of
mortality is not completely apparent in the short term
because the fatal complication subacute sclerosing
panencephalitis, although rare, can develop years after
acute measles infection.
Moreover, measles mortality could be underestimated since most surveillance systems do not systematically obtain outcome data, and measles
might not be noted on death certificates. Indeed, death
certification errors are well recognised.
We acknowledge that although we reported acute
encephalitis as a complication of measles, other com-
plications such as pneumonia were recorded only in
relation to deaths.” complications measles morbidity europe 2008 lancet - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=complications+measles+morbidity+europe+2008+lancet&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3RNFA_enUS257US298)

The Journal of Infectious Diseases 2003;187:S8–S14
© World Health Organization 2003.
The Global Burden of Measles in the Year 2000—A Model that Uses Country‐Specific Indicators

The estimation of the global burden of measles is challenging in the absence of reliable and comparable surveillance systems worldwide. A static model is described that enables estimation of measles morbidity, mortality, and disability for the year 2000 on the basis of country‐specific information (i.e., demographic profile, vaccine coverage, and estimates of case‐fatality ratios). This approach estimated a global incidence of 39.9 million measles cases, 777,000 deaths, and 28 million disability‐adjusted life years. The World Health Organization regions of Africa and Southeast Asia had 70% of incident cases and 84% of measles‐related deaths; 11 countries alone (Afghanistan, Burkina Faso, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ethiopia, India, Indonesia, Niger, Nigeria, Pakistan, Somalia, Uganda) account for 66% of deaths. This approach quantifies the measles burden by considering country‐specific indicators, which can be updated, permitting an assessment of country, regional, and global changes in the burden associated with measles infection.

"Mad" Miles

01-18-2009, 11:35 AM

There have been recent news reports that vaccination rates in Africa are actually lower then officially reported. The pressure to get international funds, when the infrastructure is not there to actually carry out the mission, plus corruption among officials, has led to this fraud.

The spread of polio in northern Nigeria is related to suspicions in the traditional Islamic community about the intentions of the national government, which is dominated by the Christians in central and southern Nigeria.

There was in interesting series of articles on Slate.com a few months ago about the way excretia is handled, or not, around the world. It was a book review and interview with the author. Highly interesting, really gross and enlightening about the details regarding the lack of waste management the world over.

The definition alone of "helicopter toilet" is alone worth investigation.

Not everyone takes care of their shit the way we do. And one tentative conclusion is that parts of rural China are ahead of the West when it comes to doing so.

All of the details for what I've referred to here are easily found with some simple googling. Check it out!

"Mad" Miles

:burngrnbounce:

MsTerry

01-18-2009, 12:29 PM

Nowhere does it say that the measles were the cause.

about 200,000 children a year die of measles, usually because they are malnourished and get no medical care.

love you too

Read up. You know how. (https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/health/13glob.html?ref=research)

Love,

-Jeff

MsTerry

01-18-2009, 02:30 PM

THAT IS EXACTLY 0.05833%!
nowhere does it say that measles were the sole cause of death

Only 7 confirmed deaths in two years,

Sylph

01-18-2009, 03:17 PM

THAT IS EXACTLY 0.05833%!
nowhere does it say that measles were the sole cause of death

Or, as is more usual in medical literature, 5.8 in 10,000. A little easier to get the mind around. I'd play the lottery if the odds were that "good"! Not a high number, true. However, this horrible disease is preventable. There are many complications, including brain damage and blindness. The saddest thing is when the kids with immune disorders, who can't be vaccinated, or don't get a good response from vaccination, die because other kids' parents didn't vaccinate and the herd immunity falters.
In the Lancet article, it states that the cases were clinically confirmed and epidemiologically linked. In some cases, measles caused pneumonia which caused death. Does this mean that the measles virus was not the cause of death?

Clinical, laboratory-confirmed, and epidemiologically linked cases that met the requirements for national surveillance were 
analysed.

MsTerry

01-18-2009, 04:37 PM

Sylph, I had the measles when I was a kid, and so did everyone else in my neighborhood.
You seem to have a medical background, and having such, you must also know that not JUST one cause leads to infant deaths. You mentioned pneumonia, why do only some kids develop this and others not?
Did none of those kids have vaccines?
How many kids die annually from vaccines?

Or, as is more usual in medical literature, 5.8 in 10,000. A little easier to get the mind around. I'd play the lottery if the odds were that "good"! Not a high number, true. However, this horrible disease is preventable. There are many complications, including brain damage and blindness. The saddest thing is when the kids with immune disorders, who can't be vaccinated, or don't get a good response from vaccination, die because other kids' parents didn't vaccinate and the herd immunity falters.
In the Lancet article, it states that the cases were clinically confirmed and epidemiologically linked. In some cases, measles caused pneumonia which caused death. Does this mean that the measles virus was not the cause of death?

Clinical, laboratory-confirmed, and epidemiologically linked cases that met the requirements for national surveillance were 
analysed.

phooph

01-18-2009, 08:30 PM

If you understand that the original outbreaks of HIV in Africa occurred in areas targeted by the WHO for Polio and Hep B vaccination programs you may understand the reluctance of Africans to participate in the current efforts. What role they actually played in the outbreak is a little foggy, and stored samples of the suspect polio vaccine in the US indicated no contamination with HIV. Dirty needles or Hep B vaccine, however, may be the impicated. An experimental Hep B vaccine was used not only in Africa but on the gay population of NYC where the first outbreaks in the US occurred and then spread to gay populations around the country. The WHO was concerned enough about this that it sent a doctor to investigate with the conclusion that there was some relationship between the outbreaks and the vaccination programs.

Origin of HIV-1? (https://weber.ucsd.edu/~jmoore/publications/HIVorigin.html)
"Hepatitis B Vaccine and the Origin of HIV/AIDS: Perspectives on a Possible Vaccine Induced Pandemic" (https://www.whale.to/m/horo.html)
Early Hepatitis B Vaccines and the “Man-Made” Origin of HIV/AIDS: (https://www.originofaids.com/articles/early.htm)

Viral contamination is a troublesome issue in the creation of vaccines. How do you find virus free animals in which to incubate the serum? Even Jonas Salk, developer of the polio vaccine, has stated that it is a near impossibility, and who knows when some as yet unidentified virus may lurk in the bodies of animals used for serum incubation. Consider the scare over bird flu and the use of chickens to make some vaccines.

It's happening in Africa. In Nigeria, and spreading to surrounding countries. Children are paralyzed for life because people got scared of vaccines.
So, it's way off in Africa, how can it affect us?
We are more connected, in 2009, to the rest of the world, via travel and immigration than ever before....

"Despite a massive international effort to eradicate poliomyelitis, the disease is alive and well in some corners of the world. Several previously polio-free African countries have now become re-infected because of major outbreaks in northern Nigeria where, experts say, vaccine campaigns are flawed and failing."
A Scourge of Childhood Reemerges as Polio Spreads in Western Africa: Scientific American (https://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=polio-nigeria-outbreak-2008)

phooph

01-18-2009, 08:37 PM

Polio outbreak in Nigeria sparked by oral vaccine - USATODAY.com (https://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-10-05-polio-nigeria_N.htm?csp=34)

It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that a polio carrier (only one in 200 people exposed become ill) would come to the USA and prepare a salad for you in a local kitchen.
Good thing you probably had your vaccinations!

Braggi

01-18-2009, 09:25 PM

Polio outbreak in Nigeria sparked by oral vaccine - USATODAY.com (https://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-10-05-polio-nigeria_N.htm?csp=34)

That's terrible news as is the "official" response to the outbreak. They should have copped to it as soon as they learned about it.

That said, I picked two interesting and bottom line tidbits from the article:

"In 2003, politicians in northern Nigeria canceled vaccination campaigns for nearly a year, claiming the vaccine was a Western plot to sterilize Muslims. That led to an explosion of polio, and the virus jumped to about two dozen countries."

So, last time officials stopped immunizing the general population an "explosion" of polio spread among about two dozen countries. That shows how dangerous polio still is and how important it is to immunize nearly everyone.

Also from the article: "More than 10 billion polio doses have been given to children worldwide, and the vaccine has been credited with cutting polio incidence by more than 99% since 1988. Far more children are paralyzed by the wild polio virus than the virus spread by the oral vaccine. But no vaccine is risk-free."

How about that? "... cutting polio incidence by more than 99% ..." That's pretty good numbers. We certainly need to keep up the pace of immunizations. Perhaps we could reach 99.5% or even better. And maybe we ought to give up on the oral vaccine in places where water quality is suspect.

-Jeff

Sylph

01-18-2009, 11:28 PM

If you understand that the original outbreaks of HIV in Africa occurred in areas targeted by the WHO for Polio and Hep B vaccination programs you may understand the reluctance of Africans to participate in the current efforts. What role they actually played in the outbreak is a little foggy, and stored samples of the suspect polio vaccine in the US indicated no contamination with HIV. Dirty needles or Hep B vaccine, however, may be the impicated. An experimental Hep B vaccine was used not only in Africa but on the gay population of NYC where the first outbreaks in the US occurred and then spread to gay populations around the country.

I don't have time to research all the claims made by Horowitz, but at first glance he seemed a little suspect for recommending silver for HIV!

After a bit of research, I am convinced that Doctor of Dentistry Horowitz is a certified nut-job! He is all about selling his books, quack remedies, 'personal consultations' and high-priced speaking engagements. Check this out...he says Kissinger is the Beast of Revelation! But the word vaccination also comes out to be 666. Wow.

Bible Code Discovery Proves "Beast" Identity And Global Conspiracy (https://www.henry-kissinger.com/hk666.htm)
"Sandpoint, ID - The identity of the notorious "beast" that prospers from the greatest plagues in history is offered as prophetic revelation in a new book by award winning health science writer, Dr. Leonard G. Horowitz. The revelation makes it possible, for the first time, to prove statistically, a global genocidal conspiracy.

According to the Bible, during the End Times tribulation, God's counsel to humanity for physical and spiritual salvation from the prophesied plagues involves gaining encrypted "wisdom," a code, that identifies the deceptive culprits in a global conspiracy to commit genocide, that is, the mass killing of people for economic gain. The Book of Revelation (21:9) implicates idol worshipers who misuse drugs, and their power, in connection with what might best be called "iatrogenocide" in which malpracticing M.D.s-medical dieties-have been increasingly implicated. In Death in the Air: Globalism, Terrorism and Toxic Warfare (Tetrahedron Publishing Group, 2001; 1-888-508-4787), this secret code and hidden intelligence is detailed. Hinting the beast's number-"666"-is also the name of a man, Revelation 13:18, advises the wise to "count" to determine the devildoer's identities. Counting a name, according to Dr. Horowitz's book, requires an alphanumeric code which apparently relates to the multiples of six (6), whereby A=6, B=12, C=18 and so on through the letter Z. Assigning these numbers to the letters of suspected villains reveals the conspirators in a statistically provable global conspiracy."

"Among the names of leading suspects," Dr. Horowitz advises, "[Henry] Kissinger is the only name that decodes to '666'."

phooph

01-19-2009, 01:12 AM

This is the kind of thing that leads to suspicion about motives from the Muslim community.

That's terrible news as is the "official" response to the outbreak. They should have copped to it as soon as they learned about it.

That said, I picked two interesting and bottom line tidbits from the article:

"In 2003, politicians in northern Nigeria canceled vaccination campaigns for nearly a year, claiming the vaccine was a Western plot to sterilize Muslims. That led to an explosion of polio, and the virus jumped to about two dozen countries."

So, last time officials stopped immunizing the general population an "explosion" of polio spread among about two dozen countries. That shows how dangerous polio still is and how important it is to immunize nearly everyone.

Also from the article: "More than 10 billion polio doses have been given to children worldwide, and the vaccine has been credited with cutting polio incidence by more than 99% since 1988. Far more children are paralyzed by the wild polio virus than the virus spread by the oral vaccine. But no vaccine is risk-free."

How about that? "... cutting polio incidence by more than 99% ..." That's pretty good numbers. We certainly need to keep up the pace of immunizations. Perhaps we could reach 99.5% or even better. And maybe we ought to give up on the oral vaccine in places where water quality is suspect.

-Jeff

phooph

01-19-2009, 01:33 AM

If you noticed, the first article was of a scientific origin.

Yes, Horowitz is a nutcase, however, don't dismiss everything he says. Much of the information I gleaned in the 90s before Horowitz arrived on the scene so he did not originate it. He has sensationalized and embellished it for purposes of self interest but he didn't simply invent it all.

The origin of HIV is still a puzzle as it does not follow the usual routes of infection.

PDF from The American Scientist
https://www.ohsu.edu/gha/docs/MooreAmSci.pdf.

Internet Article:The Origin of Aids (https://www.2000taletsvetenskap.nu/aids/Origin.htm)

The Secret Origins of AIDS: Facts, Fallacies & Conspiracy Theories (https://newdawnmagazine.com.au/Article/The_Secret_Origins_of_AIDS.html)

Hepatitis B vaccine experiment (https://www.whale.to/v/hepb1.html)

I don't have time to research all the claims made by Horowitz, but at first glance he seemed a little suspect for recommending silver for HIV!

After a bit of research, I am convinced that Doctor of Dentistry Horowitz is a certified nut-job! He is all about selling his books, quack remedies, 'personal consultations' and high-priced speaking engagements. Check this out...he says Kissinger is the Beast of Revelation! But the word vaccination also comes out to be 666. Wow.

Bible Code Discovery Proves "Beast" Identity And Global Conspiracy (https://www.henry-kissinger.com/hk666.htm)
"Sandpoint, ID - The identity of the notorious "beast" that prospers from the greatest plagues in history is offered as prophetic revelation in a new book by award winning health science writer, Dr. Leonard G. Horowitz. The revelation makes it possible, for the first time, to prove statistically, a global genocidal conspiracy.

According to the Bible, during the End Times tribulation, God's counsel to humanity for physical and spiritual salvation from the prophesied plagues involves gaining encrypted "wisdom," a code, that identifies the deceptive culprits in a global conspiracy to commit genocide, that is, the mass killing of people for economic gain. The Book of Revelation (21:9) implicates idol worshipers who misuse drugs, and their power, in connection with what might best be called "iatrogenocide" in which malpracticing M.D.s-medical dieties-have been increasingly implicated. In Death in the Air: Globalism, Terrorism and Toxic Warfare (Tetrahedron Publishing Group, 2001; 1-888-508-4787), this secret code and hidden intelligence is detailed. Hinting the beast's number-"666"-is also the name of a man, Revelation 13:18, advises the wise to "count" to determine the devildoer's identities. Counting a name, according to Dr. Horowitz's book, requires an alphanumeric code which apparently relates to the multiples of six (6), whereby A=6, B=12, C=18 and so on through the letter Z. Assigning these numbers to the letters of suspected villains reveals the conspirators in a statistically provable global conspiracy."

"Among the names of leading suspects," Dr. Horowitz advises, "[Henry] Kissinger is the only name that decodes to '666'."

oldrose

01-19-2009, 09:29 AM

MsTerry

01-19-2009, 01:41 PM

Here is a link for you, to show you how they handled Measles in those good old days.

Blinkx Video: The Brady Bunch : Is There a Doctor in the House? (https://www.blinkx.com/video/the-brady-bunch-is-there-a-doctor-in-the-house/Vw7AJKy5XO3MhdzsNbPFqQ)

Ah yes.
I remember those blissful hot summer days when people were running scared of the polio epidemics.
I remember going to school with children who were in iron lungs,
I remember the friends that lost their lives when they contracted polio,
I remember the swimming pools that lay waiting for the sounds of children, but none came because parents linked swimming and polio outbreaks.
I remember the lines of parents and children waiting for hours to get their first oral polio vaccine.
I have friends today still living with the results of polio that are worsening as they age.
I remember those days, but not fondly.

Sylph

01-19-2009, 07:15 PM

LOL! I can't believe I watched the whole thing. It was like a video equivalent of eating a Little Debbie vanilla cupcake, so sweet it can kill ya'!

Very interesting that they challenged the traditional roles of male/female doctors and nurses, even asserting that "men can be nurses, too!" Good for the Bradys.
I loved the canteloupe colored formica and olive green appliances.

Some nits to pick:
Mr. Brady almost certainly would have been immune as he would have had the measles already. Anyone born before 1957 is considered to be immune.
The kids wouldn't have been so chirpy with a 101 degree fever.
Think of 6 kids each having exposed a classroom of 30 other children. 180 kids likely getting measles and all their siblings! A nightmare.
Those insufferable kids would have to be taken care of for at least 4 days while they were in isolation. At least they had a stay-at-home mom and plucky, yet horribly annoying, Alice to help out!

Here is a link for you, to show you how they handled Measles in those good old days.

Blinkx Video: The Brady Bunch : Is There a Doctor in the House? (https://www.blinkx.com/video/the-brady-bunch-is-there-a-doctor-in-the-house/Vw7AJKy5XO3MhdzsNbPFqQ)

MsTerry

01-19-2009, 10:08 PM

The kids wouldn't have been so chirpy with a 101 degree fever.
I agree with that assessment, but of course you are sidestepping the fact that measles weren't always this dreaded disease.
No vaccines in the 70's???
No one mentions the word................................

Sylph

01-19-2009, 10:26 PM

I agree with that assessment, but of course you are sidestepping the fact that measles weren't always this dreaded disease.
No vaccines in the 70's???
No one mentions the word................................
C'mon, it's the Bradys! Do you think Marsha would go to the hospital with encephalitis? That's not a happy story line! Even Alice would have a hard time mustering a cheerful wisecrack.

There were 304 deaths in the 70's.

Abstract: The National Hospital Discharge Survey of
the National Center for Health Statistics was analyzed for
measles hospitalizations. From 1970-1978 there were an
estimated 52,301 hospitalizations for measles, or approximately
5,800 per year. The median patient age was three
years, and the median length of stay was four days. Fortyone
per cent of the discharges listed respiratory complications,
10 per cent listed otitis media, and 3 per cent listed
neurologic complications. Based on this analysis, hospitalizations
for measles accounted for 314,063 hospital days
during the period 1970-1978.

Reported

cases of measles have declined dramatically in

the United States since

the introduction of measles vaccine

in

1963. Despite considerable progress in decreasing the

incidence of

the disease, however, measles has continued to
be a cause of considerable morbidity during the 1970s.
(Am J Public Health 1982;
72:1037-1039.)

https://www.ajph.org/cgi/reprint/72/9/1037.pdf

phooph

01-19-2009, 10:33 PM

Ah yes.
I remember those blissful hot summer days when people were running scared of the polio epidemics.
I remember going to school with children who were in iron lungs,
I remember the friends that lost their lives when they contracted polio,
I remember the swimming pools that lay waiting for the sounds of children, but none came because parents linked swimming and polio outbreaks.
I remember the lines of parents and children waiting for hours to get their first oral polio vaccine.
I have friends today still living with the results of polio that are worsening as they age.
I remember those days, but not fondly.

I remember years ago reading about polio outbreaks among previously vaccinated populations in which those vaccinated were the only ones to get the disease. This was years after the vaccination so it seems as if the vaccine either weakened their immunity or dormant microbes from the vaccine morphed into active disease producers. So I went hunting and found a list of cases in which the vaccinated were susceptible to the disease. Some of these are older cases and vaccines have evolved some since then, but not much. Also check the link at the bottom that shows graphs of disease incidence relative to vaccination.

HISTORICAL FACTS EXPOSING THE DANGERS AND INEFFECTIVENESS OF VACCINES (https://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web2.html)

- In 1871-2, England, with 98% of the population aged between 2 and 50 vaccinated against smallpox, it experienced its worst ever smallpox outbreak with 45,000 deaths. During the same period in Germany, with a vaccination rate of 96%, there were over 125,000 deaths from smallpox. (The Hadwen Documents) (https://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/020119hadwin/020119hadwin.toc.html)

- In Germany, compulsory mass vaccination against diphtheria commenced in 1940 and by 1945 diphtheria cases were up from 40,000 to 250,000. (Don't Get Stuck, Hannah Allen) (https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Stuck-Against-Vaccinations-Injections/dp/0914532332?tag=particculturf-20)

- In the USA in 1960, two virologists discovered that both polio vaccines were contaminated with the SV 40 virus which causes cancer in animals as well as changes in human cell tissue cultures. Millions of children had been injected with these vaccines. (Med Jnl of Australia 17/3/1973 p555) (https://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web2.html)

- In 1967, Ghana was declared measles free by the World Health Organisation after 96% of its population was vaccinated. In 1972, Ghana experienced one of its worst measles outbreaks with its highest ever mortality rate. (Dr H Albonico, MMR Vaccine Campaign in Switzerland, March 1990)

- In the UK between 1970 and 1990, over 200,000 cases of whooping cough occurred in fully vaccinated children. (Community Disease Surveillance Centre, UK)

- In the 1970's a tuberculosis vaccine trial in India involving 260,000 people revealed that more cases of TB occurred in the vaccinated than the unvaccinated. (The Lancet 12/1/80 p73)

- In 1977, Dr Jonas Salk who developed the first polio vaccine, testified along with other scientists, that mass inoculation against polio was the cause of most polio cases throughout the USA since 1961. (Science 4/4/77 "Abstracts" )

- In 1978, a survey of 30 States in the US revealed that more than half of the children who contracted measles had been adequately vaccinated. (The People's Doctor, Dr R Mendelsohn)

- In 1979, Sweden abandoned the whooping cough vaccine due to its ineffectiveness. Out of 5,140 cases in 1978, it was found that 84% had been vaccinated three times! (BMJ 283:696-697, 1981 (https://books.nap.edu/booksearch.php?term=Search+This+Book&isbn=0309044995&Search+This+Book.x=23&Search+This+Book.y=16))

-The February 1981 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association found that 90% of obstetricians and 66% of pediatricians refused to take the rubella vaccine.

- In the USA, the cost of a single DPT shot had risen from 11 cents in 1982 to $11.40 in 1987. The manufacturers of the vaccine were putting aside $8 per shot to cover legal costs and damages they were paying out to parents of brain damaged children and children who died after vaccination. (The Vine, Issue 7, January 1994, Nambour, Qld) (https://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:c9mwORcbCMkJ:www.nicholassmith.com.au/images/usr/Vaccination.pdf+The+Vine,+Issue+7,+January+1994,+Nambour,+Qld&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=firefox-a)

- In Oman between 1988 and 1989, a polio outbreak occurred amongst thousands of fully vaccinated children. The region with the highest attack rate had the highest vaccine coverage. The region with the lowest attack rate had the lowest vaccine coverage. (The Lancet, 21/9/91)

- In 1990, a UK survey involving 598 doctors revealed that over 50% of them refused to have the Hepatitis B vaccine despite belonging to the high risk group urged to be vaccinated. (British Med Jnl, 27/1/1990)

- In 1990, the Journal of the American Medical Association had an article on measles which stated " Although more than 95% of school-aged children in the US are vaccinated against measles, large measles outbreaks continue to occur in schools and most cases in this setting occur among previously vaccinated children." (JAMA, 21/11/90)

- In the USA, from July 1990 to November 1993, the US Food and Drug Administration counted a total of 54,072 adverse reactions following vaccination. The FDA admitted that this number represented only 10% of the real total, because most doctors were refusing to report vaccine injuries. In other words, adverse reactions for this period exceeded half a million! (National Vaccine Information Centre, March 2, 1994) (https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-18876109.html)

- In the New England Journal of Medicine July 1994 issue a study found that over 80% of children under 5 years of age who had contracted whooping cough had been fully vaccinated.

- On November 2nd, 2000, the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) announced that its members voted at their 57th annual meeting in St Louis to pass a resolution calling for an end to mandatory childhood vaccines. The resolution passed without a single "no" vote. (Report by Michael Devitt) (https://www.wellnesschiro.com/physicians_group_end_mandatory_vaccines.htm)

GRAPHICAL EVIDENCE SHOWS VACCINES DIDN'T SAVE US (https://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1.html)

DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION (https://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web3.html)

WHY VACCINES ARE INEFFECTIVE (https://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web4.html)

WHY VACCINES ARE HARMFUL (https://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web5.html)

WHY VACCINATION CONTINUES (https://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/020132sinclair/vaccinaion.htm)

THE BENEFICIAL NATURE OF CHILDHOOD INFECTION (https://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web6.html)

HEALTH - THE ONLY IMMUNITY (https://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web7.html)

THE HOPEWOOD CHILDREN - AUSTRALIA'S HEALTHIEST KIDS (https://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web8.html)

phooph

01-19-2009, 10:36 PM

I agree with that assessment, but of course you are sidestepping the fact that measles weren't always this dreaded disease.
No vaccines in the 70's???
No one mentions the word................................

I had the measles in 1953. I was not very sick and enjoying staying home from school till my mother took me to the doctor who gave me an injection that made me very ill for the next several days.

Braggi

01-20-2009, 06:39 AM

I agree with that assessment, but of course you are sidestepping the fact that measles weren't always this dreaded disease.
No vaccines in the 70's???
No one mentions the word................................

MsTerry, you're really being an ignoramus or just a total jerk on this topic.

You need to look at some pictures: measles death - Google Image Search (https://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=measles+death&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2)

Measles caused blindness (https://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://www.lib.uiowa.edu/haRDIN/MD/pictures22/cdc/PHIL_4284_lores.jpg&imgrefurl=https://www.lib.uiowa.edu/haRDIN/MD/cdc/4284.html&usg=__bTxsocbkx8lCh9MDpxEudB1Ev-s=&h=478&w=700&sz=21&hl=en&start=15&tbnid=d3xxMUAl2gidYM:&tbnh=96&tbnw=140&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmeasles%2Bbirth%2Bdefects%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG)

A concise little article for you. (https://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/measles-outbreaks-increasing/)

-Jeff

MsTerry

01-20-2009, 09:42 AM

Jeff,
stop being so condescending,
this is from your little article

(https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080821/ap_on_he_me/med_measles_outbreaks_1)Today the AP reported (https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080821/ap_on_he_me/med_measles_outbreaks_1) that the number of measles cases in the US is at its highest level since 1997 - with nearly half of those cases involving children whose parents rejected vaccinations.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS???
I'll spell it out for you
MORE THAN HALF DID HAVE VACCINATIONS, AND STILL GOT THE MEASLES.

MsTerry, you're really being an ignoramus or just a total jerk on this topic.

You need to look at some pictures: measles death - Google Image Search (https://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=measles+death&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2)

Measles caused blindness (https://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://www.lib.uiowa.edu/haRDIN/MD/pictures22/cdc/PHIL_4284_lores.jpg&imgrefurl=https://www.lib.uiowa.edu/haRDIN/MD/cdc/4284.html&usg=__bTxsocbkx8lCh9MDpxEudB1Ev-s=&h=478&w=700&sz=21&hl=en&start=15&tbnid=d3xxMUAl2gidYM:&tbnh=96&tbnw=140&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmeasles%2Bbirth%2Bdefects%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG)

A concise little article for you. (https://whitecoatrants.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/measles-outbreaks-increasing/)

-Jeff

MsTerry

01-20-2009, 09:46 AM

That's right, it's the goody-two-shoes-all-wholesome-american Brady Bunch.
Do you think they were advocating not to vaccinate?

C'mon, it's the Bradys! Do you think Marsha would go to the hospital with encephalitis? That's not a happy story line! Even Alice would have a hard time mustering a cheerful wisecrack.

Braggi

01-20-2009, 10:35 AM

...
MORE THAN HALF DID HAVE VACCINATIONS, AND STILL GOT THE MEASLES.

Again, are you just being a jerk or do you actually fail to understand the science here? (That's not fair, I know, because you won't answer this question. But then, you're known for stirring the pot without being personally forthcoming or taking responsibility. It's a rhetorical question for the other readers.)

Those who are not vaccinating are creating the conditions that allow outbreaks of measles in the wider population.

Not everyone gets equal protection from the vaccine. That's why it's vitally important that everyone gets vaccinated so your unvaccinated child doesn't become the vector that infects my responsibly vaccinated child.

Hugs,

-Jeff

MsTerry

01-20-2009, 10:45 AM

Jeff, Jeff, Jeff
Please stop the fingerpointing
Since science has not been able to pinpoint the source of measles, it also hasn't been able to pinpoint the person who infects others.
Please stop turning people against each other.

Again, are you just being a jerk or do you actually fail to understand the science here? (That's not fair, I know, because you won't answer this question. But then, you're known for stirring the pot without being personally forthcoming or taking responsibility. It's a rhetorical question for the other readers.)

Those who are not vaccinating are creating the conditions that allow outbreaks of measles in the wider population.

Not everyone gets equal protection from the vaccine. That's why it's vitally important that everyone gets vaccinated so your unvaccinated child doesn't become the vector that infects my responsibly vaccinated child.

Hugs,

-Jeff

Sylph

01-20-2009, 11:31 AM

Jeff, Jeff, Jeff
Please stop the fingerpointing
Since science has been able to pinpoint the source of measles, it also hasn't been able to pinpoint the person who infects others.
Please stop turning people against each other.

Since science has (not?) been able to pinpoint the source of measles, it also hasn't been able to pinpoint the person who infects others

If that is what you mean, public health authorities usually can pinpoint the actual person who infects others. Usually an unvaccinated person who travels from a country where vaccination rates are low. Where does measles or any of these diseases come from before that? They evolved over millions of years to be good at spreading themselves around....they are survivors.

Sylph

01-20-2009, 11:48 AM

Vaccines are not perfect. But, the risk/benefit ration greatly favors vaccination of populations. We are too young, most of us, to remember tragedies from infectious disease. I remember that my grandmother "almost died" from typhoid fever, but that is just a second hand family tale.

I addressed some of Phooph's citations above:
Polio in Oman 1988-1989, new strategies needed in some areas to fight polio
https://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/22/5/936 (https://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/22/5/936)
In the seroconversion study conducted after the outbreak, 89%. 100% and 50% of infants had detectable antibodies to types 1, 2, and 3, respectively, after four doses of OPV. Low responses to type 3 were also associated with the occurrence of sporadic cases of type 3 poliomyelitis in 1991, in spite of high rates of coverage with at least four doses of OPV (>96%) throughout the country. These findings demonstrate that antibody responses to OPV may vary widely within individual countries, and that a uniform strategy to deliver at least three doses in routine programmes may be insufficient to achieve elimination of wild poliovirus infection. 

AAPS votes for resolution against mandatory vaccinations, (no surprise!)
https://overlawyered.com/2006/03/american-association-of-physicians-and-surgeons/ (https://overlawyered.com/2006/03/american-association-of-physicians-and-surgeons/)
The AAPS sounds really legit, but they are a maverick group for abstinence-only sex ed, among other things. They’re anti abortion and against single payer or government administered health care.
Before citing to AAPS publications as one might cite to JAMA or The Lancet, however, it would be wise to read this (https://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/91/strange-bedfellows) and learn more about the group’s indulgence for anti-vaccine, anti-fluoridation and anti-gay crankery, as well as what one of its contributors regards as the superiority of "the creation religion of Jehovah" over the "religion of evolutionary humanism". On the vaccine issue, at least, "the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons [has been] transformed into one of the primary media allies of litigators and plaintiffs seeking to review medical care after the fact, and find legal fault with physicians, vaccine developers and public health authorities who exercised accepted standards of care prevalent at the time they made their decisions." (Kathleen Seidel, Mar. 12 (https://neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/91/strange-bedfellows)).

Whooping cough occurs in fully vaccinated. Immunization scheduled need to be fine-tuned.
Whooping cough---a continuing problem -- Crowcroft and Britto 324 (7353): 1537 -- BMJ (https://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/324/7353/1537)
News media announced a global resurgence of whooping cough in April this year(2002) following a session on pertussis at the 12th European Congress of Clinical Microbiology and Infectious Diseases in Milan, Italy. Subsequently the European Union sent an alert to member states. Pertussis is one of the top causes of vaccine preventable deaths, with nearly 300 000 deaths in children worldwide in 2000.1 However, reports of a global resurgence originated in countries with low mortality and high vaccination coverage. For such countries the issue is how to fine tune effective immunisation programmes. In the rest of the world, priorities are to decrease infant mortality by improving coverage and timeliness of vaccination and implementing pertussis surveillance.2
Pertussis has re-emerged in low mortality countries in the past because of low coverage after a vaccine scare in the 1980s (in the United Kingdom) or the use of vaccines with poor efficacy (Canada, Sweden).3 Sweden . .

In 1990, a UK survey involving 598 doctors revealed that over 50% of them refused to have the Hepatitis B vaccine despite belonging to the high risk group urged to be vaccinated. (British Med Jnl, 27/1/1990)

I can’t find this anywhere but in the anti-vax sites. Google Scholar only has an anti-vax book. No link to the actual study, if it exists.

I got my hep B vax years ago, as I work with needles!

MsTerry

01-20-2009, 01:38 PM

If that is what you mean, public health authorities usually can pinpoint the actual person who infects others.
If they REALLY can pinpoint the person who infects others, they must have been able to find the source of measles, right?

Usually an unvaccinated person who travels from a country where vaccination rates are low.
those darn foreigners

Where does measles or any of these diseases come from before that?
That is the real question

They evolved over millions of years to be good at spreading themselves around....they are survivors
That sounds like some solid scientific do-higgie

Where do those measles keep on coming from? France?

Braggi

01-20-2009, 01:58 PM

... I can’t find this anywhere but in the anti-vax sites. Google Scholar only has an anti-vax book. No link to the actual study, if it exists.

I got my hep B vax years ago, as I work with needles!

Harvard Medical School provides heb B vaccines for all its medical students.

-Jeff

Sylph

01-20-2009, 03:05 PM

It's the Swiss who have the lowest vaccination rates in Europe due to their intense individualistic outlook.
Question: Where do you think these diseases come from, MsTerry?

Swiss need booster to meet measles target - swissinfo (https://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/detail/Swiss_need_booster_to_meet_measles_target.html?siteSect=105&sid=8010713&cKey=1184096521000)
"The vaccination rate in Switzerland is increasing very slowly, and there is a worry that it is not increasing fast enough to reach this 95 per cent target," Jean-Luc Richard of the health office's epidemiology and infectious diseases division told swissinfo.
The current outbreak, which the health office has classed as an "epidemic", has seen 414 infections since January, of which more than half have occurred in canton Lucerne.
"In Lucerne there is a higher proportion of the population that uses alternative medicine and they tend to vaccinate less against measles," explained Richard

MsTerry

01-20-2009, 04:03 PM

So I guess you are warning us against those 400 swiss measley people? How about swiss cheese? or your favourite swiss chocolate? Swiss Watches maybe?
No death warning there either, are they to healthy to die from the measles?

It's the Swiss who have the lowest vaccination rates in Europe due to their intense individualistic outlook.
Question: Where do you think these diseases come from, MsTerry?

Swiss need booster to meet measles target - swissinfo (https://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/detail/Swiss_need_booster_to_meet_measles_target.html?siteSect=105&sid=8010713&cKey=1184096521000)
"The vaccination rate in Switzerland is increasing very slowly, and there is a worry that it is not increasing fast enough to reach this 95 per cent target," Jean-Luc Richard of the health office's epidemiology and infectious diseases division told swissinfo.
The current outbreak, which the health office has classed as an "epidemic", has seen 414 infections since January, of which more than half have occurred in canton Lucerne.
"In Lucerne there is a higher proportion of the population that uses alternative medicine and they tend to vaccinate less against measles," explained Richard

Sylph

01-20-2009, 04:59 PM

Detail- swissinfo (https://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/Experts_warn_Swiss_lag_behind_with_jabs.html?siteSect=105&sid=81)
"Contrary to what people believe, measles is not always a minor illness. Of those who contracted the disease in recent months, one in ten had to go to hospital, about 30 people were diagnosed with pneumonia and four children developed encephalitis - a brain inflammation.

In the worst case, measles can cause death.

The relatively low rate of vaccination coverage against measles in Switzerland can also be explained by critical voices, especially those advocating natural remedies.

It is not a coincidence that this medical theory is well installed in the Lucerne region"

I can almost forgive the Swiss, as they excel in that great chocolate and cheese.
As you can see, many people got very sick in spite of not living in the Third World. Encephalitis can cause permanent disability. I guess your point is that if nobody dies, everything is OK.

YouTube - Vaccine Myths Episode 2 - The Great Graph Illusion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=959HmIWSDQ0)
misleading graphs shown by anti-vaccination groups

MsTerry

01-20-2009, 10:14 PM

Of those who contracted the disease in recent months, one in ten had to go to hospital, about 30 people were diagnosed with pneumonia
Sylph, you as a nurse know that there are many different kinds of pneumonias. Some more severe than others. Which did those Swiss get?
It probably was this one

Hospital-acquired pneumonia

<dl><dd> Main article: Hospital-acquired pneumonia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital-acquired_pneumonia)
</dd></dl> Hospital-acquired pneumonia, also called nosocomial (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosocomial_infection) pneumonia, is pneumonia acquired during or after hospitalization for another illness or procedure with onset at least 72 hrs after admission. The causes, microbiology, treatment and prognosis are different from those of community-acquired pneumonia. Up to 5% of patients admitted to a hospital for other causes subsequently develop pneumonia. Hospitalized patients may have many risk factors for pneumonia, including mechanical ventilation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_ventilation), prolonged malnutrition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malnutrition), underlying heart (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart) and lung (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung) diseases, decreased amounts of stomach acid, and immune disturbances. Additionally, the microorganisms a person is exposed to in a hospital are often different from those at home . Hospital-acquired microorganisms may include resistant bacteria such as MRSA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methicillin-resistant_Staphylococcus_aureus), Pseudomonas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudomonas), Enterobacter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterobacter), and Serratia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serratia). Because individuals with hospital-acquired pneumonia usually have underlying illnesses and are exposed to more dangerous bacteria, it tends to be more deadly than community-acquired pneumonia.
or maybe this one

Ventilator-associated pneumonia (VAP) is a sub-type of hospital-acquired pneumonia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital-acquired_pneumonia) (HAP) which occurs in people who are on mechanical ventilation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_ventilation) through an endotracheal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endotracheal_tube) or tracheostomy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracheostomy) tube for at least 48 hours. VAP is a medical condition that results from infection (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infection) which floods the small, air-filled sacs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveoli) (alveoli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveoli)) in the lung (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung) responsible for absorbing oxygen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen) from the atmosphere (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_atmosphere). VAP is distinguished from other kinds of infectious pneumonia because of the different types of microorganisms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microorganisms) responsible, antibiotics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic) used to treat, methods of diagnosis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnosis), ultimate prognosis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prognosis), and effective preventive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preventive_medicine) measures. In the community pneumonia is most often caused by S. pneumoniae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streptococcus_pneumoniae), H. influenzae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemophilus_influenzae), or S. aureus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staphylococcus_aureus). However, in the hospital the organism associated with pneumonia is most often Pseudomonas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudomonas), regardless of whether or not the patient is ventilated. In order for a patient to have VAP they have to be on a ventilator; it’s not the organism that distinguishes VAP, it's the fact that the patient is on a ventilator.

Sylph

01-20-2009, 10:50 PM

Sylph, you as a nurse know that there are many different kinds of pneumonias. Some more severe than others. Which did those Swiss get?

Measles can be confirmed, (and was confirmed according to the article) by blood test. It's also very characteristic by pathology. Here is the type the kids with measles get. What a mess, (on a microscopic level)! No wonder they can't breathe. Obviously, this kind of lung damage is enough to make someone seriously ill.
I suppose, if the poor kid comes in with a measles pneumonia, (quite distinct) he could also get a secondary ventilator pneumonia, with substandard care. All preventable with vaccinations.
YouTube - Histopathology Lung--Measles pneumonia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v80kA_dt6EE)

(MsTerry, you can do better than this! :D)

MsTerry

01-21-2009, 10:04 AM

I suppose, if the poor kid comes in with a measles pneumonia, (quite distinct) he could also get a secondary ventilator pneumonia, with substandard care.
Many people leave the hospital sicker than when they entered,Hospital Pneumonia is one of the causes.
"measles pneumonia" is just a group name, but isn't just exclusively tied to the measles.

Gremillion DH ; Crawford GE

Measles occurred in 3,220 Air Force recruits between January 1976 and July 1979 and was complicated by pneumonia in 106 cases (3.3 percent). Although no deaths occurred, the illness was characterized as clinically severe with high fever and prolonged hospitalization (mean, 14.5 days). Bacterial superinfection as documented by transtracheal aspiration occurred in 35 cases (30.3 percent) and was caused by Hemophilus influenzae (18), Hemophilus parainfluenzae (two), Neisseria meningitidis (nine), Streptococcus pneumoniae (three), Streptococcus pyogenes (two) and Moraxella kingae (one). Clinical evidence of bronchospasm was present in 18 patients (17 percent) and required bronchodilators in six. Other complications included liver function abnormalities (31 percent), otitis media (29 percent) and sinusitis (25 percent). Measles pneumonia in adolescents is clinically severe with a generally benign outcome.

PreMedline Identifier: 7282741Any youtube on that?

d-cat

01-21-2009, 11:03 AM

Good discussion going on here but it reminds me of the discussion on the original 'Global Warming Fraud' thread way back when, where people were debating over technical info and charts, when all they needed to do was look into the people pushing global warming.

I think one can get a different perspective on vaccinations by looking into the pharmaceudical companies who are pushing and profiting from them. I don't remember the exact figures anymore but Merck is making many tens of billions on "compulsory" vaccinations. Drug companies aren't your friends; they are interested in profits. The pharmaceudical industrial complex doesn't want a healthy population - there would be no sick people to profit off of. I understand that this is the reason why they don't teach much about preventive care or nutrition in medical schools.

Bayer Spreads HIV Worldwide
YouTube - BAYER AG CORP. (Aspirin) SPREADS HIV WORLDWIDE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcFDOWIl7Nw)

Look into the very real subject of population control/depopulation. Or Rockefeller's American Cancer Society. Don't you find it odd that there has been no real advancement in the treatment of cancer decade after decade? Or that patients who refuse chemo live longer than those who undergo it? Why does the govt ban alternative therapies to the "terminally ill", when the accepted treatment has such poor results, forcing doctors and patients to give/get treatment abroad? There is a lot of very interesting info on cancer online for anyone interested:

ALIVE AND WELL by Philip E. Binzel, Jr., M.D. (https://www.whale.to/m/binzel.html)
YouTube - Healing Cancer from Inside Out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xkyMAYmrQY) (trailer)
G. Edward Griffin - A World Without Cancer - The Story Of Vitamin B17 (https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4312930190281243507)
The science and politics of cancer : Edward Griffin (https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3132520544606194398)

Whether one believes in vaccinations or not, the government (who is in cahoots with the drug industry - research Rumsfeld and aspartame) does not have the authority to tell you that you have to take vaccinations (according to Dr. Ron Paul, M.D.). That is why they have to lie about vaccinations being mandatory. And why they don't tell you about the waivers. But try to force you they will, first starting with the Model State Emergency Health Powers Act, and followed by something they slipped into one of the bills following 911 (sorry I forget which bill) which allows them to imprison you if you refuse vaccinations.

This is the reason why Dr. Lima Laibow of Natural Solutions Foundations, and her husband, two star general and former head of Army Special Forces, Major General Albert Stubblebein (who refers to chemtrails as "soft kill" operations) moved to Panama and refuse to re-enter the US. I had posted recently a rather shocking interview of Dr. Laibow on the Global Warming Agenda thread in WaccoTalk for anyone interested. Or visit their website at Health Freedom Threats: Codex, FDA, Vaccinations, GMOs :: HealthFreedomUSA.org (https://www.healthfreedomusa.org) and learn about Codex Alimentarius (and how they are taking away our right to vitamin supplements, among other things).

More info on vaccinations can be found here:
Vaccines: The Deadly Cure - Immunization Dangers and the Global Revolt Against Vaccines (https://www.prisonplanet.com/archives/vaccines/index.htm)
"This research archive is a compilation of information concerning mercury in vaccines, their link to autism, other vaccine controversies, and the nationwide hoax that vaccines are mandatory."

Braggi

01-21-2009, 11:26 AM

Good discussion going on here but it reminds me ... why they don't teach much about preventive care or nutrition in medical schools.
...

Well, it was an OK discussion. First I'll ask what medical school it is that you recently graduated from? It is precisely those medical schools you deride that do the studies that prove how important preventive care and nutrition are. Who do you suppose is doing these studies? Homeopaths? Naturopaths? Acupuncturists? Ayurvedic "doctors?" Hardly. It's medical students at medical schools and other institutes of higher learning. Graduates of these places are the doctors and scientists that are furthering the causes of health and healing.

Do you actually know anybody in the healing arts, d-cat? And I mean real medical doctors and nurses, or people who do pharmacological research? I know dozens of them personally and there is not a single one that wishes to make people ill or keep ill people sick. That's such a twisted point of view. I suggest a good therapist. You need help.

I'll just reply that every sentence in your post is garbage. I won't honor it with a line by line reply.

I really think you ought to just hole up in your bunker and never come out. The world isn't a safe enough place for you. There's someone around every corner wanting to take away your otherwise myriad choices.

Gads, we have too many freedoms and too much time on our hands and too few challenges in life if this is what we spend our time on.

-Jeff

d-cat

01-21-2009, 12:43 PM

One thing I would like to post after Braggi's reply is that I do not believe doctors are intentionally hurting people, and I have never stated or insinuated that. Braggi often puts words in people's mouths. And Braggi, I come from a family of doctors and dentists, not that that matters at all. The info (often by doctors and researchers) is available to anyone.

phooph

01-21-2009, 01:05 PM

Thanks for the information. There is no doubt that there are those on both sides of the issue who are driven by the profit motive and willing to mislead.

One of the great criticisms of childhood vaccinations is that they are given to tiny babies with immature immune systems. When Japan moved the earliest date for vaccinations to 24 months, the number and severity of adverse reactions and deaths fell by 85-90%. The age at which doctors are telling parents is to vaccinate is 3 - 6 months, and then they are given the combo shots - MMR and DPT, which can overwhelm the immune systems. These are combined not for the good of the child, but for the convenience.

The appearance of SIDS is a modern phenomenon associated with the advent of infant vaccinations, and the DPT in particular. The majority of cases occur within hours or days of vaccination, an observation that led both Wyeth and Connaught Laboratories to include a warning in their DPT inserts beginnning in the 80s. The USA Patriot Act, which includes language allowing for the forced mass vaccinations of populations to protect against biological attacks also includes language protecting vaccine manufacturers from legal responsibility for adverse reactions and deaths from vaccines. The drug industry no longer has a legal need to inform anyone of any possible adverse reactions to any vaccines.

Because one strain of human papiloma virus (HPV) can cause cervical cancer, the new HPV vaccine, Gardasil, is now required for female immigrants and is being heavily promoted as a required vaccination for all school children. Some states are already mandating it. Males can aquire and spread the diease but don't run the cancer risk. The current publicity campaign and resulting increasing use is producing an expected percentage of adverse reactions including paralysis and death. There is also a growing body of criticism from those in the medical community regarding a drug who's long term effects are still unknown and for which there is no high benefit to risk ratio. Most HPV is benign, and this program is seen as another revenue enhancement program by Merck Pharmeceuticals that could harm more individuals than it protects.

Detail- swissinfo (https://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/Experts_warn_Swiss_lag_behind_with_jabs.html?siteSect=105&sid=81)
"Contrary to what people believe, measles is not always a minor illness. Of those who contracted the disease in recent months, one in ten had to go to hospital, about 30 people were diagnosed with pneumonia and four children developed encephalitis - a brain inflammation.

In the worst case, measles can cause death.

The relatively low rate of vaccination coverage against measles in Switzerland can also be explained by critical voices, especially those advocating natural remedies.

It is not a coincidence that this medical theory is well installed in the Lucerne region"

I can almost forgive the Swiss, as they excel in that great chocolate and cheese.
As you can see, many people got very sick in spite of not living in the Third World. Encephalitis can cause permanent disability. I guess your point is that if nobody dies, everything is OK.

YouTube - Vaccine Myths Episode 2 - The Great Graph Illusion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=959HmIWSDQ0)
misleading graphs shown by anti-vaccination groups

d-cat

01-21-2009, 01:26 PM

The USA Patriot Act, which includes language allowing for the forced mass vaccinations of populations to protect against biological attacks also includes language protecting vaccine manufacturers from legal responsibility for adverse reactions and deaths from vaccines.

I forgot about that! Yes, this is true!

And I should mention that one biological attack we had here was the anthrax scare after 911, and the weapons grade anthrax that was circulating originated from Fort Dietrich in Maryland. This is an accepted fact and has even been reported on The History Channel:

YouTube - History Channel on Anthrax Attacks 01/2008 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi3sYzDsSGI)

p.s many thanks for your informative posts on this thread

Braggi

01-21-2009, 01:43 PM

One thing I would like to post after Braggi's reply is that I do not believe doctors are intentionally hurting people, and I have never stated or insinuated that. ...

"I think one can get a different perspective on vaccinations by looking into the pharmaceudical companies who are pushing and profiting from them. I don't remember the exact figures anymore but Merck is making many tens of billions on "compulsory" vaccinations. Drug companies aren't your friends; they are interested in profits. The pharmaceudical industrial complex doesn't want a healthy population - there would be no sick people to profit off of. I understand that this is the reason why they don't teach much about preventive care or nutrition in medical schools. ... "

Do you think there are no doctors working for "the pharmaceutical companies?"

d-cat, I agree there are conflicts of interest in our medical system. However, the vast, vast majority of "Big Pharma" works only in the best interests of you and me. When they have success with a medicine, they make a lot of money from it and rightfully so. It is certainly in their best interests to put their drugs in the best possible light, and there is the conflict. Sometimes they cheat on studies, mostly by excluding the studies that show their drugs don't work that well. OK, we agree.

That has rarely been the case with vaccines. The science is solid. Vaccines work and are statistically safe. Yes, some people have had and will have bad reactions. But so many fewer than would have had terrible illnesses that it is more than worthwhile to vaccinate.

-Jeff

d-cat

01-21-2009, 01:57 PM

again Braggi, if your research brings you to a different conclusion than mine did, feel free to get your vaccinations and take pharmaceuticals. I believe it should be a personal choice.

Braggi

01-21-2009, 01:58 PM

phooph wrote:
The USA Patriot Act, which includes language allowing for the forced mass vaccinations of populations to protect against biological attacks also includes language protecting vaccine manufacturers from legal responsibility for adverse reactions and deaths from vaccines.

Isn't that great? If that wasn't the case we'd be dependent upon Europe to provide us with emergency vaccinations. I prefer local sources. In times of emergency we need fast performance from our providers. There are bound to be non standard challenges under such circumstances. A single error could put the provider out of business. In our current monopoly business environment putting one huge company out could be an international catastrophe. Frankly, I think "too big to fail" should be too big to exist, but we have what we have. If the big companies aren't protected in emergency times, it is unlikely the would be willing to take the risk to perform under pressure. This is one of the few parts of the "Patriot Act" (what a sickening joke of a name) I agree with.

... And I should mention that one biological attack we had here was the anthrax scare after 911, and the weapons grade anthrax that was circulating originated from Fort Dietrich in Maryland. ...

And isn't it interesting the recipients of the anthrax were all well known liberals? Hmmmm ...

-Jeff

Braggi

01-21-2009, 02:00 PM

... Braggi often puts words in people's mouths. ...

I think you'll have trouble supporting that statement.

-Jeff

phooph

01-21-2009, 02:01 PM

I forgot about that! Yes, this is true!

And I should mention that one biological attack we had here was the anthrax scare after 911, and the weapons grade anthrax that was circulating originated from Fort Dietrich in Maryland. This is a accepted fact and has even been reported on The History Channel:

YouTube - History Channel on Anthrax Attacks 01/2008 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi3sYzDsSGI)

p.s many thanks for your informative posts on this thread

In addition, the anthrax attacks resulted in the purchase of $93,000,000 worth of Ciprofloxacin, an expensive synthetic antibiotic with a patent due to expire in 2003. The publicity prompted individuals to demand prescriptions of Cipro from doctors so they could do home stockpiling in case the attacks spread.

Prior to this the Merck Manual listed Cipro as one of the least effective drugs against anthrax, with old and cheap pencillin, amoxicillin, and doxycycline being more effective. Afterward the manual was changed to list Cipro as the most effective against anthrax.

There were allegations from some in the medical and conspiracy communities that the entire incident was staged so Bayer could increase revenue from a drug that was quickly loosing its status as the newest magic bullet and due to loose its lucretive patent.

Cipro, Anthrax And The Perils Of Patents - Forbes.com (https://www.forbes.com/2001/10/17/1017cipro.html)

Braggi

01-21-2009, 02:10 PM

In addition, the anthrax attacks resulted in the purchase of $93,000,000 worth of Ciprofloxacin, an expensive synthetic antibiotic with a patent due to expire in 2003. The publicity prompted individuals to demand prescriptions of Cipro from doctors so they could do home stockpiling in case the attacks spread. ...

A good example of kneejerk, fear based reactions by both government and individuals.

... There were allegations from some in the medical and conspiracy communities that the entire incident was staged so Bayer could increase revenue from a drug that was quickly loosing its status as the newest magic bullet and due to loose its lucretive patent. ...

For those who see "Big Pharma" as the all powerful, evil enemy, yeah, that would be the only explanation. However, if you look at the list of recipients of the anthrax it's pretty obvious the sender was trying to sway influential liberals to support "the President's" plans to pass the "Patriot Act" and his invasion of Iraq.

Either way it was a pretty sick thing to do.

-Jeff

Braggi

01-21-2009, 02:19 PM

again Braggi, if your research brings you to a different conclusion than mine did, feel free to get your vaccinations and take pharmaceuticals. I believe it should be a personal choice.

I agree, I do and I will. However, I bet I take a tiny fraction of the pills and potions that the average Wacco reader does. I take no drugs or pills of any kind on a regular basis. I use Ibuprofen on occasion. I would also take antibiotics or antivirals if my doctor prescribed them. I'm not big on pain meds. Not for me anyway.

I think it should be your personal choice whether or not you or your children receive vaccinations. However, I prefer, and would vote that your kids be excluded from my kid's school if they're not vaccinated.

I know that's not how it works in Sonoma County, but that's my opinion.

-Jeff

MsTerry

01-21-2009, 05:31 PM

Jeff,
Would you consider this an ad hominum attack?

I'll just reply that every sentence in your post is garbage. I won't honor it with a line by line reply.

I really think you ought to just hole up in your bunker and never come out. The world isn't a safe enough place for you. There's someone around every corner wanting to take away your otherwise myriad choices.

Gads, we have too many freedoms and too much time on our hands and too few challenges in life if this is what we spend our time on.

-Jeff

Braggi

01-21-2009, 06:26 PM

Jeff,
Would you consider this an ad hominum attack?

Call it what you will, it was exasperation driven. Not clever, agreed, not nice, but I really don't have time to answer 20 lines, each of which are totally ... not worth replying to they're so foolish. There was a time I would have been driven to answer it all in excruciating detail, but nobody wants to see that. I think this thread is dead. Once again, nobody who refuses to accept the science will choose to based on this thread. The anti vaccination crowd will insist it is I who just won't face reality, and I will insist they won't learn from valid sources. So, an impasse. Perhaps someone who was sitting on the fence will make a more informed, and maybe a better decision when the time comes based on our little back and forth.

I do apologize to d-cat and to you for making what appeared to you as an attack. It's a product of fatigue and certainly not one of my better posts I agree.

-Jeff

Sylph

01-21-2009, 08:01 PM

Before this thread goes into the dustbin of history, I just want to remind everyone that it is the most vulnerable who are protected by "community immunity"...babies and people with poor immune systems who can't have vaccines or are too young to have them.
NNii : Immunization Issue (https://www.immunizationinfo.org/immunization_issues_detail.cfv?id=26)

I learned a lot in this recent flurry of research and that's not a bad thing!
For instance, I was not aware that bacterial super-infection was common in measles pneumonia.

I just read up on the sorry story of laetrile as it was mentioned in a link someone provided above. Talk about profit motive. Some unscrupulous doctors made a fortune off desperate cancer patients, probably (surely) hastening their deaths. These docs were the 'alternative' guys.
The Rise and Fall of Laetrile (https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/laetrile.html)

It's insulting to hear that doctors/nurses are ignorant about or don't care about preventative care. My doctor knows and cares, as she asks the pertinent questions and encourages me in living a healthy life. She's not a maverick, just practicing holistic care which is standard and expected.
We know more and more about the benefits of aspects of diet, like 'super-foods' and so forth, because of research by real doctors.

Do any of the anti-vax folks recommend any vaccines? Just curious.

MsTerry

01-21-2009, 08:46 PM

Sylph, I find it offensive that in your epitaph you feel the need to kick alternative medicine.
Many now considered mainstream ideas come forth out of alternative or native healing practices.
And if you ever are in pain at the dentist, think about where that novacaine really originated.

We know more and more about the benefits of aspects of diet, like 'super-foods' and so forth, because of research by real doctors.

Sylph

01-21-2009, 10:29 PM

Sylph, I find it offensive
:) Of course, you do!

kick alternative medicine.
I was referencing the doctors who became 'cancer specialists' and charged lots of money to administer laetrile without any evidence that it worked.

Many now considered mainstream ideas come forth out of alternative or native healing practices.

I agree. But, some therapies, like homeopathy, magnets and antioxidant supplements haven't done very well in the studies and practitioners keep using them, dogmatically insistent on their worth.

Epitaph? I'm not dead yet, I feel pretty good.

d-cat

01-22-2009, 08:01 AM

I just read up on the sorry story of laetrile as it was mentioned in a link someone provided above. Talk about profit motive. Some unscrupulous doctors made a fortune off desperate cancer patients, probably (surely) hastening their deaths.

No profits! You get laetrile/B17 from food! Here's a list:

Foods Containing B17 (Nitrilosides) (https://www.vitaminb17.org/foods.htm)

You can buy vitamin B17 supplements in Mexico. I've seen websites offering it online (from Mexico) but I don't know whether it would clear customs into the US, or if the websites are reputable.

d-cat

01-22-2009, 08:18 AM

for anyone concerned about mercury poisoning from vaccines, this lecture has some info regarding how to get it out of your system.

Mercury, Autism and the Global Vaccine Agenda (https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6890106663412840646)

d-cat

01-22-2009, 08:35 AM

and here again are the links to the free online videos about laetrile/B17:

The science and politics of cancer : Edward Griffin (https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3132520544606194398)
G. Edward Griffin - A World Without Cancer - The Story Of Vitamin B17 (https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4312930190281243507)
(additional links in the original post)

and here is a link to a list of videos on Rockefeller and population control:
rockefeller population - Google Video (https://video.google.com/videosearch?q=rockefeller+population)

Yes, the family behind the American Cancer Society believes in population reduction! Is that a conflict of interest or what?!

d-cat

01-22-2009, 09:01 AM

Some unscrupulous doctors made a fortune off desperate cancer patients, probably (surely) hastening their deaths.

Probably? Surely? Which one? Judging from your statements about laetrile, it seems you don't know very much about it. Yet you're so against it.

btw, from the info I've seen, chemo hastens death. And the fortune you talk about can be found in the medical and pharmaceudical industries, not in laetrile.

d-cat

01-22-2009, 09:06 AM

However, I prefer, and would vote that your kids be excluded from my kid's school if they're not vaccinated.

Why? Your kids are vaccinated, aren't they? Doesn't sound like you have much confidence in vaccines!

Hotspring 44

01-22-2009, 10:19 AM

Sylph

01-22-2009, 10:39 AM

If tens of millions of people worldwide were dropping dead today because of bird flu and there was a viable vaccine for bird flu that people proved worked; question is, would you vaccinate you or your child for [H5M1] bird flu?
Good question!
Are there any vaccines that you would recommend D-cat, ever?

So David Rockefeller says he believes in population control? Even if Rockefeller is more evil than Hitler, it is true that our earth has too many people and that we are running out of fuel, soil, clean air, clean water, ocean reefs, fish, endangered animals, etc, all because there are too many humans.
The Daily Texan - Overpopulation: the real crisis (https://www.dailytexanonline.com/opinion/1.1103300)

Sylph

01-22-2009, 11:17 AM

This is off-topic, but interesting. I was frankly, surprised that Laetrile is still advocated by anyone. It is definitely not a vitamin and has potential toxic effects!

"There isn’t enough proof that laetrile is an effective treatment for cancer or any other disease. Most of the websites promoting laetrile base their claims on unsupported opinions and anecdotal evidence (https://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=21855).

The USA’s National Cancer Institute (https://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/laetrile) reviews the results of clinical research into the use of laetrile for cancer on its website. One animal study claimed that amygdalin slowed the growth of cancer in animals and helped stop tumours spreading to the lungs. But repeated studies couldn’t show similar results, so the treatment remains unproven.

Amygdalin (the active ingredient in laetrile) has shown anti-cancer activity in two studies when given with enzymes. This is most probably because the enzymes cause the amygdalin to release cyanide, which killed the cancer cells grown in the lab. One website promoting laetrile includes the quote "When we add laetrile to a cancer culture under the microscope, providing the enzyme glucosidase is also present, we can see the cancer cells dying off like flies." This isn’t surprising, as the glucosidase makes the laetrile release cyanide, which is a poison. The difficulty is getting the amygdalin close enough to cancer cells, along with the glucosidase, to cause it to kill them without poisoning surrounding normal tissues or the whole body.

This mirrors the main difficulty in a great deal of cancer research – as many cancer therapies (https://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=91) are poisons. As cancer develops initially from normal body cells, the only way to kill cancer cells would be to use treatments that are poisonous to human cells. The mainstay of research today is how to get such treatments to the cancer cells without killing or damaging too many normal cells. Or to develop treatments that are directed at the subtle differences between normal cells and cancer cells – in other words targeted treatments.

Another study claimed that amygdalin might make cancer cells more sensitive to radiation. Doctors have known for a long time that cancer cells at the centre of tumours have less oxygen than cells nearer the outside of tumours. This absence of oxygen makes the central cells more resistant to radiotherapy (https://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=166). Apparently, during this study, amygdalin stopped cells in a laboratory dish from absorbing oxygen. The researchers then wondered whether preventing the cells on the outside of a tumour from absorbing oxygen with amygdalin, would mean more oxygen getting to the cells in the centre. But the problem remains of how to get the oxygen into the cells at the centre of the tumour. A great deal of cancer research has been carried out for many years simply to try to find a way of doing this. Since this research was first reported in 1978, it has not been confirmed by any other research.

There have only been two published human studies testing the efficacy of laetrile as a treatment for cancer. They were both sponsored by the American National Cancer Institute (https://www.cancer.gov/) in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The first study was a phase I clinical trial (https://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=74) looking at safe levels of laetrile, and involved only 6 patients. It tested the dosage and different ways of giving laetrile (https://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=21859#having). Although the researchers reported very few side effects, 2 patients developed symptoms of cyanide poisoning because they ate raw almonds while taking amygdalin.

The second study looked at whether laetrile had any effect on shrinking cancer tumours in 175 patients. Of these patients, only one person had any apparent response to laetrile and this only lasted for 10 weeks. Seven months after the study, all the patients’ cancers had continued to grow. There haven’t been any randomised controlled clinical trials (https://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=73) using laetrile.

A systematic review (https://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=19430) was published by the Cochrane Library in January 2006 which looked at laetrile treatment for cancer. It concluded that the claimed benefits of laetrile are not supported by controlled clinical trials. You can read a plain language summary of this review (https://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab005476.html) on the Cochrane website.

If you take laetrile, you have it

As an injection (intravenously)
As tabletsTaking laetrile as tablets has more toxic side effects (https://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=21859#sfx) than having it as an injection. Our digestive bacteria, and the enzymes in the food we eat, break down the laetrile and release cyanide.

Laetrile’s promoters typically recommend you have daily intravenous injections (https://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=302#ways) for 2 and 3 weeks, followed by laetrile tablets for some time. Laetrile is also used in enemas and lotions that you can apply to your skin.

People who promote laetrile usually also suggest that you also

Take high doses of vitamins
Follow a special dietSo it can be quite a rigid and complex regime to stick to.

Laetrile contains cyanide, which is a type of poison. So the side effects of laetrile are the same as those of cyanide. These include

Sickness
Headache
Dizziness
Liver damage
A lack of oxygen to the body tissues
A drop in blood pressure
Drooping eyelids
Fever
Nerve damage, causing loss of balance and difficulty walking
Confusion, coma and eventually deathIf you do take laetrile as tablets, it is very important that you avoid eating

Raw almonds
Crushed fruit stones or pips
Celery
Apricots
Peaches
Beansprouts
Carrots
High doses of vitamin C
Beans - mung, lima, butter and other pulses
Flax seed
NutsAll these can increase the risk of cyanide poisoning if you take them with laetrile because they contain low levels of amygdalin. (These foods are safe when you eat them without laetrile because the levels of amygdalin in them are low.)

Because of the lack of evidence (https://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=21859#evidence) that laetrile works, and the serious side effects (https://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=21859#sfx) it has, it is not authorised for sale in the European Union. The Food and Drugs Agency in the US (FDA) have also banned it.

But some hospitals and clinics in Mexico (https://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=11211#mexico) offer laetrile. And there are many websites that promote its use. These websites often encourage people with cancer to travel to the Mexican clinics for treatment. As well as the considerable cost of the treatment, you also have to come up with money for your airfares and accommodation when you are there"

phooph

01-22-2009, 10:52 PM

However, the vast, vast majority of "Big Pharma" works only in the best interests of you and me. … It is certainly in their best interests to put their drugs in the best possible light, and there is the conflict. Sometimes they cheat on studies, mostly by excluding the studies that show their drugs don't work that well. OK, we agree.

Big Pharma is akin to Big Oil and other such institutions. They are corporations who owe allegiance first of all to their stock holders. All other considerations come after that. There are people working in drug companies who do care about helping people, but they do not operate at the level of major decision makers. The number of bad drugs that have passed the FDA approval process due to suppression of adverse effects is long. Many of these drugs were known to be lethal to an alarming percentage of users and that information was hidden. The rising death toll of patients was the alert that all was not right.

You cannot state that an industry that would so willfully kill people to make money has our best interests at heart. These have not been isolated incidents, they are an oft repeated pattern. For the last 35 years I have repeatedly seen employees from drug companies and the FDA coming forward as whistle blowers revealing how the industry and the FDA knowingly approved drugs and other products that were well documented to be harmful.Then there are all the former drug salesmen/women who have told the stories of how they were trained to induce doctors to prescribe drugs that harmed patients, knowing full well that it would harm the patients. People with any kind of a conscience don't usually remain in that kind of a work environment.

That has rarely been the case with vaccines. The science is solid. Vaccines work and are statistically safe. Yes, some people have had and will have bad reactions. But so many fewer than would have had terrible illnesses that it is more than worthwhile to vaccinate.
-Jeff

Vaccines wiped out smallpox and have doubtless saved a lot of lives, but they are not all harmless and some are more harmful than others. The smallpox vaccine was originally made from a less harmful virus, cow pox, that created immunity to small pox. In a way you could call it a natural vaccine. It was not man made but man discovered and was the origin of the concept. Cowpox has been replaced by vaccinia (https://www.stanford.edu/group/virus/pox/2000/vaccinia_virus.html), a related virus and is the origin of the term 'vaccine.'

What has happened to vaccinations, however, is what has happened to the whole of medicine with the rise of the pharmaceutical mega powers. Good science has given way to greed.

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And here's a comment that was posted below the above viedo on YouTube:
"as a pharmacy technician, i appreciate a drug rep coming out and telling the truth about the pharmaceutical industry. it is highway robbery at the expense of your health and money."

And then there is this lovely guy who waited for the statute of limitations to run out to publish his kiss and tell book.
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<embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/U5_BWQkSMcg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>

phooph

01-22-2009, 11:53 PM

A good example of kneejerk, fear based reactions by both government and individuals.

Yes, I suppose it has nothing to do with the Bush family's long standing relationship with "Big Pharma."

For those who see "Big Pharma" as the all powerful, evil enemy, yeah, that would be the only explanation. However, if you look at the list of recipients of the anthrax it's pretty obvious the sender was trying to sway influential liberals to support "the President's" plans to pass the "Patriot Act" and his invasion of Iraq.

Either way it was a pretty sick thing to do.

-Jeff

One can always kill two birds with one stone.:wink:

Michael Corleone: "My father is no different than any powerful man, any man with power, like a president or senator."
Kay Adams: "Do you know how naive you sound, Michael? Presidents and senators don't have men killed."
Michael Corleone: "Oh. Who's being naive, Kay?"
-- The Godfather, Part I

"The high incidence of sociopathy in human society has a profound effect on the rest of us who must live on this planet, too, even those of us who have not been clinically traumatized. The individuals who constitute this 4 percent drain our relationships, our bank accounts, our accomplishments, our self-esteem, our very peace on earth.

Yet surprisingly, many people know nothing about this disorder, or if they do, they think only in terms of violent psychopathy - murderers, serial killers, mass murderers - people who have conspicuously broken the law many times over, and who, if caught, will be imprisoned, maybe even put to death by our legal system.

We are not commonly aware of, nor do we usually identify, the larger number of nonviolent sociopaths among us, people who often are not blatant lawbreakers, and against whom our formal legal system provides little defense.

Most of us would not imagine any correspondence between conceiving an ethnic genocide and, say, guiltlessly lying to one's boss about a coworker. But the psychological correspondence is not only there; it is chilling. Simple and profound, the link is the absence of the inner mechanism that beats up on us, emotionally speaking, when we make a choice we view as immoral, unethical, neglectful, or selfish.

Most of us feel mildly guilty if we eat the last piece of cake in the kitchen, let alone what we would feel if we intentionally and methodically set about to hurt another person.

Those who have no conscience at all are a group unto themselves, whether they be homicidal tyrants or merely ruthless social snipers.

The presence or absence of conscience is a deep human division, arguably more significant than intelligence, race, or even gender.

What differentiates a sociopath who lives off the labors of others from one who occasionally robs convenience stores, or from one who is a contemporary robber baron - or what makes the difference between an ordinary bully and a sociopathic murderer - is nothing more than social status, drive, intellect, blood lust, or simple opportunity.

What distinguishes all of these people from the rest of us is an utterly empty hole in the psyche, where there should be the most evolved of all humanizing functions." [Martha Stout The Sociopath Next Door] (https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/076791581X/qid=1133179720/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-4340866-4794240?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

"Ignotas nulla curatio morbid - do not attempt to cure what you do not understand - is the opening theme in this study of evil. Political Ponerology (https://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/political_ponerology_lobaczewski.htm) is “a science on the nature of of evil adjusted for political purposes.” The author, Andrzej Lobaczewski, describes himself as a Polish psychologist who — with many other colleagues — found meaning living through Nazism and then Communism by studying how evil happens and triumphs in a wider political and economic system.

Lobaczewski’s hypothesis is that a small percentage of humans are born psychopaths. Another minority percentage are of a nature to go along with psychopaths while the vast majority of people are essentially healthy. The majority who are healthy have a difficult time understanding that some people are not — they can not fathom being a psychopath or acting like one." - C.A. Fitts

Braggi

01-23-2009, 07:11 AM

Big Pharma is akin to Big Oil ...

It's pretty clear you've never worked with either. Having worked with both, I can tell you ... there's a difference.

I used to make tools for the medical industry as well as tools for the oil industry. It was very clear who cared about the end customer and the safety and quality of the products.

I know a handful of people who, it could be said, work for "big pharma." Not one of them would put profits before safety.

Phooph, I suggest you never take any pharmaceuticals. Your fear and disgust wouldn't be conducive to healing.

-Jeff

d-cat

01-23-2009, 10:43 AM

number one main reason vaccine resistant hybrid strains!

In this scenario, even if a child is vaccinated, the child would not be protected from
from the vaccine resistant hybrid, and could catch and spread the virus just as any unvaccinated child could. In fact, the vaccinated child may have a weaker immune system from vaccinations and could catch and spread the virus easier than the unvaccinated child.

So I see no good reason to ostracize unvaccinated children and deprive them of an education (home schooling is now illegal in California). If a child is banned from going to school, the Child Protective Services goes after the parents. In short, they are forcing parents to vaccinate their child. This shouldn't happen in a "free society". I believe the parent should have say in what is injected in their children or how they are schooled.

d-cat

01-23-2009, 10:50 AM

Good question!
Are there any vaccines that you would recommend D-cat, ever?

if I were considering a vaccine, I would look into its ingredients. I understand that this info shouldn't be gained from the bottle, but from the insert, as the bottle label will sometimes omit ingredients. Here is one website that lists vaccine ingredients: INFORMED CHOICE - Cocktail (https://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html)

So David Rockefeller says he believes in population control? Even if Rockefeller is more evil than Hitler, it is true that our earth has too many people and that we are running out of fuel, soil, clean air, clean water, ocean reefs, fish, endangered animals, etc, all because there are too many humans.
The Daily Texan - Overpopulation: the real crisis (https://www.dailytexanonline.com/opinion/1.1103300)

So if we we were truly running out of the resources you mention, it would be OK for someone "more evil than Hitler" to pick and choose and depopulate the world for us???

d-cat

01-23-2009, 11:08 AM

many of the points in Sylph's post on laetrile are covered in the videos I previously posted:

lecture
The science and politics of cancer : Edward Griffin (https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3132520544606194398)

documentary
G. Edward Griffin - A World Without Cancer - The Story Of Vitamin B17 (https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4312930190281243507)

d-cat

01-23-2009, 11:15 AM

Government Vaccines – Bad Policy, Bad Medicine (2002)
by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

...As a medical doctor, I believe mandated smallpox vaccines are bad medicine. The available vaccine poses significant risks, even though the more serious complications affect only a statistically small number of people. As with any medical treatment, these risks must always be balanced against the perceived benefit. Remember, not a single case of smallpox has been reported, despite the near-hysteria that characterized recent news reports. Even if some individuals became infected, smallpox spreads only with very close contact. Those in the surrounding community could then decide to accept vaccines based on a much more tangible risk.

As a legislator, I believe mandated smallpox vaccines are very bad policy. The point is not that smallpox vaccines are necessarily a bad idea, but rather that intimately personal medical decisions should not be made by government. The real issue is individual medical choice. No single person, including the President of the United States, should ever be given the power to make a medical decision for potentially millions of Americans. Freedom over one’s physical person is the most basic freedom of all, and people in a free society should be sovereign over their own bodies. When we give government the power to make medical decisions for us, we in essence accept that the state owns our bodies...

Government Vaccines – Bad Policy, Bad Medicine by Rep. Ron Paul (https://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul66.html)

phooph

01-23-2009, 12:38 PM

It's pretty clear you've never worked with either. Having worked with both, I can tell you ... there's a difference.

I used to make tools for the medical industry as well as tools for the oil industry. It was very clear who cared about the end customer and the safety and quality of the products.

I know a handful of people who, it could be said, work for "big pharma." Not one of them would put profits before safety.

Phooph, I suggest you never take any pharmaceuticals. Your fear and disgust wouldn't be conducive to healing.

-Jeff

Unlike the oil industry, the pharmaceutical industry attracts people who are concerned about the well being others. Finding the cure to some scourge of humanity is no doubt a motivation for many who get degrees qualifying them to work in the industry. And they do great research and they develop products that address health problems. But the companies themselves are not owned by those who work to save the world. They are owned by stockholders who expect dividends, and those stockholders expect the management to deliver those dividends. This puts management in conflict with the other mission of the company, to be of help to humanity. Unfortunately, corporate law requires companies to bow to the desires of the stockholders. If improving the health of medical patients conflicts with producing dividends, then dividends often win out.

The people who are willing to work in such capacity are people who are not going to loose sleep over the decisions. I trust you read my post regarding sociopaths and psychopaths. I have one in the family. My brother is a non-violent sociopath. What matters most to him is social status. He is a member of several do-gooder community organizations and the Rotary. He regularly attends meetings and events and likes to rub shoulders with those active in working for a better Sonoma County. Upon being introduced as his sister I have to smile and endure the compliments about what an intelligent, charming, warm, and caring person he is. But I know who he really is. He has no conscience. He is always on the hunt for victims. Those who he sees as less powerful than he and unable to affect his social standing will find themselves cruely treated as he wages psychological warfare on them. Part of winning for him is the ability to fool the greater world into believing he is something that he is not. He is careful with his public image and like all of his ilk, careful not to tip his hand. People who have known him and worked on various projects and campaigns with him for years have no idea what he is really like. Fortunately for the world at large he has chosen to be an "environmentalist" and a "humanitarian." If he were traveling in the circles of upper management in a corporation able to do great damage, he would have no qualms about choosing dividends over the well being of people or the planet.

Because you know people in the pharmaceutical industry that you are confident would not put profits before safety does not mean there aren't others who would. I am also not assured that your perception of all of them is necessarily who they really are.

I happened to catch a bit of TV yesterday on a con artist who charmed all her victims with plates of cookies and her warm motherly attention. Even as her victims' dividend checks bounced she was able to continue to reassure them it was some sort of mistake and that all would be recitified. "Here, have a brownie, and how about lunch on Thursday." Then she skipped town with the money and left her son, who was also her partner, to be the fall guy. Her victims had a hard time resolving their perception of her with the criminal she truly was. Appearances are not necessarily reality.

I am an e-penpal with someone who has been a long time friend of Alberto 'OK to torture' Gonzales. I am assured that our disgraced former attorney general is a warm and caring person. This penpal is friends with others in high places, and when writing to him about any of them who have popped up in the news due to some reprehensible behavior, I have gotten the same response. "My wife and I have known __________ for some years and I can assure you he is a most charming and respectable person."

Bernie Madoff was a highly trusted and no doubt charming individual who seemed to care a great deal about delivering profits to his investors, which is why he was such a successful crook. People expect bad guys to look and act like bad guys. Some of the worst of them don't.

phooph

01-23-2009, 01:33 PM

I know a handful of people who, it could be said, work for "big pharma." Not one of them would put profits before safety.

-Jeff

ZENIT - A Believe-It-or-Not Cancer Drug (https://www.zenit.org/article-24866?l=english)

Janossy says the company steered clear of the United States because of its heavily profit-oriented pharmaceutical industry, and instead looked toward this Italian Catholic hospital. "Their whole approach to healing is so different," Janossy says. "The president is a priest who's not picking up a salary. All the profit goes back to research or is sent to the missions. That is extremely unique. So we said, 'OK we will share this product and the potential it has.'"

Yubajeff

01-23-2009, 07:25 PM

It is rather weird that the 2 vaccines we DO really need are nowhere near prime time: HIV and hepatitis C. Hepatitis B vaccine was worthwhile, and probably saved many lives in the past 35 years, as did polio vaccine (IPV and prior to that OPV, which I had to demand Kaiser to special order for my patients for 10 years prior to the bureaucrats deciding to take OPV off the market and switch entirely to IPV for safety reasons. No I am not psychic or even that bright; it was obvious common sense reasoning).
Now everyone benefits from herd immunity so getting the vaccine no longer is as crucial. However, I suspect there is a significant number of older dentists and surgeons out there,now in their 60's or beyond, who are chronic carriers having contracted hepatitis B prior to the availability of the vaccine. Of course this is probably 1% of the risk of getting hepatitis C from your dentist or surgeon, who are not required to give any informed consent of the risk to their patients -another good reason to avoid doctors; this applies to dentists, dental hygenists, etc of course (OUCH). I know of a few ethical ones who have voluntarily given up operating, due to a degree of unprevetible risk (despite "universal precautions"- accidents do happen.
Some anti-cancer vaccines are worth considering. If there were a breast cancer vaccine, I imagine women would consider it. There is now a reasonably good cervical cancer/HPV vaccine- recommended for 11 year old girls.I would certainly consider it for a teen about to begin sexual activity.
Hepatitis B vaccine also prevents liver cancer, which is now seen primarily in folks with chronic hep C, although not at a high rate. Most folks with chronic hep C do just fine, even without the overhyped Interferon/ribovirin chemotherapy pushed by the GI guys.
One of more my more hair-brained theories is that much otherwise unexplained cancer is caused by varicella/zoster (chickenpox/shingles) virus. The vaccine for this is reasonably good, usually recommended at "age 50". I have consider getting this myself, but haven't come to a conclusion on the risk/benefit ratio. Personally I would not withhold primary varicella vaccine from an infant; I've seen (and had myself) chickenpox and I consider it a pretty nasty disease. HOwever one can take acyclovir or its cousins at the onset with pretty good effectiveness.
I might just as well go public with my other pet theory: that we are facing a massive cancer epidemic which will strike down the babyboomer generation first, not due to the carcinogens that we measure and monitor in the air and soil (they are bad enough), but to the now pervasive electromagnetic pollution of our atmosphere, from microwaves, AM, FM, TV, UV, and ionizing radiation (not to mention medical xrays; there is a growing body of literature regarding the risk of CT scans in children). There is at least one prominent neurosurgeon who agrees with my empiric observation that we are seeing a rapid increase in brain cancer, probably due to cell phone use (those rays don't suddenly stop at your ear; they go straight into your brain cells and fry your DNA). I won't even use bluetooth, although the energy delivered is lower. People tend to leave them in all day long! I have spent a small fortune on wired earpieces for my cell phone(stereo, so I can enjoy the music) but they usually last a few weeks before going haywire.
I'm probably forgotting something crucial, but I am now 2 years free of the medical industrial complex, praised be. After 2 years the memory starts to fail, which is actually a good thing, freeing up RAM for me to learn something useful, like Kiswahili. I have no strong opinions on the other many vaccines; everyone should do their own research and make up their own minds. Find a new doctor if this offends yours (it often does, in my experience).
Yubajeff

Sylph

01-23-2009, 09:43 PM

Everyone should do their own research about vaccines and about any medication or herb that their doctor or healer prescribes! I have my doubts that most people have the basic science background to be able to determine truth from fiction, though. The web is a minefield of ridiculous claims and folks out to make a buck.

even if a child is vaccinated, the child would not be protected from
from the vaccine resistant hybrid, and could catch and spread the virus just as any unvaccinated child could. In fact, the vaccinated child may have a weaker immune system from vaccinations and could catch and spread the virus easier than the unvaccinated child.
Is there any credible evidence that immunized children have a 'weaker immune' system? What does that even mean? There are populations of unvaccinated kids in certain religious groups and so forth and I'm not aware of any 'super-immunity' of these groupsl

As a medical doctor, I believe mandated smallpox vaccines are bad medicine. The available vaccine poses significant risks, even though the more serious complications affect only a statistically small number of people. As with any medical treatment, these risks must always be balanced against the perceived benefit. Ron PaulAbsolutely! Smallpox was wiped out (by vaccines!) and the vaccine is more dangerous than the faint possibility that some terrorist would have the means to launch an epidemic. Right after 911, the Medical Reserve Corps in Sonoma County and elsewhere, had volunteers from the medical community bravely take their smallpox vaccines in case they were needed to vaccinate the public. Thank God, that wasn't necessary. He was talking about smallpox here, not all vaccines.

So if we we were truly running out of the resources you mention, it would be OK for someone "more evil than Hitler" to pick and choose and depopulate the world for us???Do you think we aren't running out of resources?? I guess we can just keep multipying forever and somehow grow more food, make more land, water, etc. How?
If he (Rockefeller) really did want to depopulate the world, (why, I can't imagine, as it would be bad for economies everywhere) well, he could start a rumor in Africa that vaccines were dangerous and then thousands of kids would die of measles...Much more effective, it's already happening.

It sounds nice that a 'good Christian man' has an amazing cancer cure. Apparently it's made of blue-green algae(?) You take it my mouth or as a cream (for skin cancer?). You can buy it for $49.00 for a small jar. They can't sell it in the USA because the FDA wouldn't allow their claims. No published studies, just testimonials. It's going to be 'tested extensively' by a bunch of nuns? Hmmm.
CellAdam: The Catholic cancer cure backed by the Virgin Mary - Counterknowledge.com (https://counterknowledge.com/2009/01/celladam-the-catholic-cancer-cure-backed-by-the-virgin-mary/)

Solarex-Europe, Inc. - Shopping Cart (https://www.ewebcart.com/%7E16536/cgi-bin/cart.cgi/75527315/QcFPm9UaatoGaatXJprJ6.KxjMP6dbBdfqRJACszUfM/NSKS6WFIL3JEC/?p=cart&la=a&ac=view)
Drops and Cream for a hefty $49.00 each, Visa accepted.

BioStemWorld - Frequently Asked Questions (https://biostemworld.com/portal/products--revolutionary-products/faq-frequent-questions)

During animal tests the active substances of the capsule were injected into the body of the examined animals. Then they examined the number of stem-cells orbiting in the blood of animals correlating it to a control group. The study was carried out with flow-citometrial methods and CD34+ antibodies. According to the study, in that group consuming the active substances, the number of stem-cells increased with 50%.Very doubtfull! Even if true, you can't take something orally and compare it to something that is injected.

d-cat

01-24-2009, 09:27 AM

I find it interesting that Sylph supports both population reduction and vaccinations.

Braggi

01-24-2009, 09:58 AM

I find it interesting that Sylph supports both population reduction and vaccinations.

Permanent decreases in birthrate down to a sustainable level happen with higher education for women and increased status of women.

The highest birthrates are in chronically war torn areas and those areas where education is refused to women and women are treated as property.

Education is key, d-cat.

-Jeff

Sylph

01-24-2009, 10:29 AM

I find it interesting that d-cat "finds it interesting" that I support both vaccines and "population reduction"! LOL! You've found me out, d-cat, it's me and the Rockefellers. I wish they'd hurry and send me my check!

Education is one factor in reducing runaway population growth. Access to birth control is another. In many cultures, large families are considered necessary for field work and basically 'a good thing', and this persists even with access to birth control.
I was quite surprised when I Googled "overpopulation denialism". It's amazing that the idea that we are running out of resources could be considered controversial.

Braggi

01-24-2009, 10:46 AM

... I wish they'd hurry and send me my check!...

I was quite surprised when I Googled "overpopulation denialism". It's amazing that the idea that we are running out of resources could be considered controversial.

Yeah, I wish Big Pharma would send me my check! I'm such an apologist for them!

About resources, if we just stopped spending so much money on "alternative" treatments that didn't work, put all those charlatans to work producing food, there would be no shortages of food. Same goes for lawyers and tax "professionals." If they produced goods instead of pain, there'd be no problem with the economy.

The Earth could support double the population it does now, but all our power would have to come from non polluting sources, all our waste would have to be composted, reclaimed or recycled, and our water use would have to drop by about 80% (that's a number out of "thin air" but probably close to accurate).

We would have to return the Sahara and some other deserts to their former "breadbasket" glory and reforest vast swaths of the Earth.

In other words, we'd have to end war. Ready?

-Jeff

d-cat

01-25-2009, 07:54 AM

some info regarding resource shortages:

The First Global Revolution: A Report by the Council of the Club of Rome (1991)
First Global Revolution, The: A ... - Google Book Search (https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=8RNKHGbzUuAC)

"It would seem that humans need a common motivation, namely a common adversary, to organize and act together in the vacuum; such a motivation must be found to bring the divided nations together to face an outside enemy, either a real one or else one invented for the purpose."

"In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these dangers are caused by human intervention ...The real enemy, then, is humanity itself."

The Club of Rome is a Rockefeller think tank (that Al Gore is a member of).

------------------------------

National Security Study Memorandum 200
Kissinger's 1974 Plan for Food Control Genocide
Schiller Institute- Kissinger's 1974 Genocide Plan- NSSM 200-Exposed Join Food For Peace Movement (https://www.schillerinstitute.org/food_for_peace/kiss_nssm_jb_1995.html)

Kissinger was a protégé of Rockefeller (who was a protégé of the House of Rothschilds).

Sylph

01-25-2009, 10:50 AM

I am sure Planned Parenthood is controlled by some vast conspiracy, too.
I guess we need a new thread for "Overpopulation, real danger or conspiracy?"
I support helping women around the world have access to safe birth control and/or safe abortions. Population control, not 'reduction'.
PLANNED PARENTHOOD PRESIDENT CECILE RICHARDS’ STATEMENT ON PRESIDENT OBAMA’S EXECUTIVE ORDER OVERTURNING THE MEXICO CITY POLICY (GLOBAL GAG RULE) - Planned Parenthood (https://www.plannedparenthood.org/newsroom/press-releases/planned-parenthood-president-cecile-richardsstatement-president-obamas-executive-order-overturn-23615.htm)

Published: 01.23.09

“With the stroke of a pen, President Obama has lifted the stranglehold on women’s health across the globe. His repeal of the global gag rule ends eight long years of policies that have blocked access to basic health care for women worldwide. No longer will health care providers be forced to choose between receiving family planning funding and restricting the health care services they provide to women.
“Expanding access to family planning is not only good, basic health care; it saves women’s lives. In some parts of Africa, women have a one-in-10 risk of dying in childbirth, a sad fact only exacerbated by the gag rule. Women’s health and well-being are the bedrock of freedom and independence for individuals, families, and entire communities. Avoiding disease, having access to clean water and nutritious food, deciding whether and when to have children, and being safe in pregnancy and childbirth make women stronger and improve the quality of life for families and communities.
Planned Parenthood Federation of America is the nation's leading sexual and reproductive health care advocate and provider. We believe that everyone has the right to choose when or whether to have a child, and that every child should be wanted and loved. Planned Parenthood affiliates operate nearly 880 health centers nationwide, providing medical services and sexuality education for millions of women, men, and teenagers each year. We also work with allies worldwide to ensure that all women and men have the right and the means to meet their sexual and reproductive health care needs.

sharingwisdom

01-25-2009, 11:44 PM

I am not opposed to early abortions, but in reading the following article, I felt very uncomfortable about the possiblities in what Planned Parenthood might be hiding. It came from a feminist website attempting to defend an Idaho Planned Parenthood employee for her response to a woman wanting to pay for an African-American woman's abortion.
Idaho Planned Parenthood agreed to racist donation - Feministing (https://www.feministing.com/archives/008697.html)

I do think there are alternative agenda's that need more research.
Eugenics and the Nazis -- the California connection (https://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/11/09/ING9C2QSKB1.DTL)

Margaret Sanger's Eugenic Legacy: The Control of Female Fertility
Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood (https://www.nrlc.org/news/2004/NRL07/margaret_sanger_and_planned_pare.htm)
Sanger's Legacy Is Reproductive Freedom and Racism (https://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/618)

I am sure Planned Parenthood is controlled by some vast conspiracy, too.
I guess we need a new thread for "Overpopulation, real danger or conspiracy?"
I support helping women around the world have access to safe birth control and/or safe abortions. Population control, not 'reduction'.
PLANNED PARENTHOOD PRESIDENT CECILE RICHARDS’ STATEMENT ON PRESIDENT OBAMA’S EXECUTIVE ORDER OVERTURNING THE MEXICO CITY POLICY (GLOBAL GAG RULE) - Planned Parenthood (https://www.plannedparenthood.org/newsroom/press-releases/planned-parenthood-president-cecile-richardsstatement-president-obamas-executive-order-overturn-23615.htm)

Published: 01.23.09

“With the stroke of a pen, President Obama has lifted the stranglehold on women’s health across the globe. His repeal of the global gag rule ends eight long years of policies that have blocked access to basic health care for women worldwide. No longer will health care providers be forced to choose between receiving family planning funding and restricting the health care services they provide to women.
“Expanding access to family planning is not only good, basic health care; it saves women’s lives. In some parts of Africa, women have a one-in-10 risk of dying in childbirth, a sad fact only exacerbated by the gag rule. Women’s health and well-being are the bedrock of freedom and independence for individuals, families, and entire communities. Avoiding disease, having access to clean water and nutritious food, deciding whether and when to have children, and being safe in pregnancy and childbirth make women stronger and improve the quality of life for families and communities.
Planned Parenthood Federation of America is the nation's leading sexual and reproductive health care advocate and provider. We believe that everyone has the right to choose when or whether to have a child, and that every child should be wanted and loved. Planned Parenthood affiliates operate nearly 880 health centers nationwide, providing medical services and sexuality education for millions of women, men, and teenagers each year. We also work with allies worldwide to ensure that all women and men have the right and the means to meet their sexual and reproductive health care needs.

Sylph

01-26-2009, 09:59 AM

Yes, it's shocking that Sonoma Hospital, and other sites around California were performing forced sterilizations.

It's shameful that the employee of Planned Parenthood did not denounce the pro-life caller who wanted to donate "to abort black babies". It was a set-up that she failed. The writer, with a pro-life agenda went on to praise efforts to force PP out of neighborhoods.

Yes, there was extreme, overt racism in our society...up until...well, it's still festering in a lot of places.
Sanger was a "flawed heroine", according to Julianne Malveaux. She says:
"Planned Parenthood has been a leader in the fight for women's right to choose and in providing access to affordable reproductive health care for a cross-section of women. Planned Parenthood has not supported forced sterilization or restricted immigration and has gently rejected the most extreme of Sanger's views."
Of course, poor women (often minorities) are the ones who take advantage of PP's services. I don't see any creepy conspiracy in that, even if Sanger was mixed up in eugenics way back in the early years. It's interesting history, but not a condemnation of current reproductive care.

sharingwisdom

01-26-2009, 11:44 PM

I really appreciate that you took the time to read two of the articles. And Julianne Malveaux also said:

"The Planned Parenthood Federation of America has been protective of Margaret Sanger's reputation and defensive of allegations that she was a racist. They correctly point out that many of the attacks on Sanger come from anti-choice activists who have an interest in distorting both Sanger's work and that of Planned Parenthood. While it is understandable that Planned Parenthood would be protective of their founder's reputation, it cannot ignore the fact that Sanger edited the Birth Control Review from its inception until 1929. Under her leadership, the magazine featured articles that embraced the eugenicist position. If Sanger were as anti-eugenics as Planned Parenthood says she was, she would not have printed as many articles sympathetic to eugenics as she did."

And if you get that I don't like Planned Parenthood, I do have my feelings. I had a terrible experience there many years ago where I almost died having a IUD fitted. I was ridiculed for complaining that the insertion was painful and then seizured. For many women, Planned Parenthood has compromised compassion for factory birth control visits.

I am also not comfortable that aborted fetuses are used in stem cell research as this can easily become an industry if it is not already. Science has discovered how to use stem cells created from the person's own body for regeneration.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/the-medical-miracle-1024576.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/the-medical-miracle-1024576.html)

And when I hear people speak of a conspiracy theory as if people are lunatics who would think outside the box of mainstream media sources or knowledge, I remember that a 'conspiracy' is an agreement or a kind of 'partnership' in criminal purposes in which each member becomes the agent or partner of every other member. "Conspiracy" Defined & Explained (https://www.lectlaw.com/def/c103.htm) There is plenty of this going on...don't you think? Appearances are not necessarily truth. That is why the Freedom of Information Act, among other research resources, has been such a helpful way to verify what some people refer to as "those conspiracy theories." I find discernment works well in an open interchange of ideas.

Yes, it's shocking that Sonoma Hospital, and other sites around California were performing forced sterilizations.

It's shameful that the employee of Planned Parenthood did not denounce the pro-life caller who wanted to donate "to abort black babies". It was a set-up that she failed. The writer, with a pro-life agenda went on to praise efforts to force PP out of neighborhoods.

Yes, there was extreme, overt racism in our society...up until...well, it's still festering in a lot of places.
Sanger was a "flawed heroine", according to Julianne Malveaux. She says:
"Planned Parenthood has been a leader in the fight for women's right to choose and in providing access to affordable reproductive health care for a cross-section of women. Planned Parenthood has not supported forced sterilization or restricted immigration and has gently rejected the most extreme of Sanger's views."
Of course, poor women (often minorities) are the ones who take advantage of PP's services. I don't see any creepy conspiracy in that, even if Sanger was mixed up in eugenics way back in the early years. It's interesting history, but not a condemnation of current reproductive care.