Any criticism of Israel is antisemitism.

[Valley Oak]

If you dare criticize Israel for what it's doing now (or for anything else, for that matter) then you are necessarily an anti-Semite. Israel is irreproachable in anything it does, no matter how wrong or horrible it may be. Israel is always right.

I challenge anyone to say otherwise.

Edward

["Mad" Miles]

OTHERWISE!!!



"Mad" Miles


:burngrnbounce:

[pjpete]

Israel is as selfish as selfish can get...! That's all there is to it. The Israeli government, and it's military has proven, by bombing schools, churches, hospitals, even a United Nations School, killing many women and children, that they could care less about any one else except themselves. That doesn't mean Hamas is any less selfish, they are equally selfish. However, Israel is a much more powerful nation, and should know better, act more human, and sit at the negotiating table and come up with viable approaches to this situation.

[MsTerry]

YOU'RE WRONG EDWARD
Israel operates from the premise that they are good-natured victims. They use the holocaust, anti-semitism or self-defense as a justification for their own actions.
Several years ago, an older Israeli was distraught over western reports that characterize Jews as racist and hateful. In his mind, people who survived the holocaust could NEVER treat any body else that way. In order to prove that the critics were wrong, he decided to dress and live like an Arab for a week, and mingle with his jewish friends.
His first hand report was of course not what he expected, he wrote a book about it, (Zeno probably knows the tittle) and was belittled for doing it.


If you dare criticize Israel for what it's doing now (or for anything else, for that matter) then you are necessarily an anti-semite. Israel is irreproachable in anything it does, no matter how wrong or horrible it may be. Israel is always right.

I challenge anyone to say otherwise.

Edward

[Photoguy]

There was a time when I believed Israel should be entitled to its original boundaries set forth in the white papers drawn up in England in the 1950's, I even thought the '67 borders might be acceptable. Now with no end in sight for the settlement movement, Israels provocative and aggressive actions towards the people it displaced, the threat to world peace it represents is too great. I no longer believe Israel should exist as a state. The fact that there are more Jews in NY than Israel shows that the Jewish religion would certainty still thrive even without the existence of a "Jewish State".
You may feel free to call me an anti-Semite but the truth is I believe all dogmatic religions which believe they have some special connection to the divine(god) are basically cancerous and destructive.

[Dynamique]

is the tittle [sic] of this book "Arab Like Me" ??



... In order to prove that the critics were wrong, he decided to dress and live like an Arab for a week, and mingle with his jewish friends.
His first hand report was of course not what he expected, he wrote a book about it, (Zeno probably knows the tittle) and was belittled for doing it.

[babaruss]

Ditto...
For whatever reason Israel seems to think it is entirely beyond reproach.
Selective memory doesn't help the situation much either.
What part of the word ghetto don't they remember ?
The Palestinians have been marginalized, and pushed into huge ghettos
and left to rot there for over 50 years.
The good news about all this chaos is that for the first time that I can recall people are no longer blindly sympathetic to Israel.
The Israeli Army has (for as long as I can remember) made it a point to shoot cameramen, emergency aide workers, U.N. workers, and ambulances.
Schools and hospitals be damned...better to destroy a hospital and kill a bunch of kids than to let a potential bad guy hide out among civilians.
But we need also remember that American soldiers have been doing this sort of crap ever since I can remember too.This latest Israeli bombing and invasion was planned to coincide with Bush's last days in office (and prior to Obama taking office). The bombing (and invasion) was planned over 6 months ago, and was in no way caused by rocket fire into Israeli territory.
That was merely another excuse to do what they already intended to do
Eventually people will wake up to Israel's poor me ploy.
Knowing this and being angry at Israel for their callous way does not make me an anti Semite.
It just makes me angry at Israel, and its war mongering, land grabbing, abusively unawakened leadership.
Seems to me that as being God's 'chosen people' they would demonstrate something other than arrogance, violence, cruelty and never ending excuses for their obscene behavior.
But then maybe I'm missing something here.
Russ








There was a time when I believed Israel should be entitled to its original boundaries set forth in the white papers drawn up in England in the 1950's, I even thought the '67 borders might be acceptable. Now with no end in sight for the settlement movement, Israels provocative and aggressive actions towards the people it displaced, the threat to world peace it represents is too great. I no longer believe Israel should exist as a state. The fact that there are more Jews in NY than Israel shows that the Jewish religion would certainty still thrive even without the existence of a "Jewish State".
You may feel free to call me an anti-Semite but the truth is I believe all dogmatic religions which believe they have some special connection to the divine(god) are basically cancerous and destructive.

[JandA]

"It just makes me angry at Israel, and its war mongering, land grabbing, abusively unawakened leadership. Seems to me that as being God's 'chosen people' they would demonstrate something other than arrogance, violence, cruelty and never ending excuses for their obscene behavior. But then maybe I'm missing something here."

What I believe you are missing is a balanced perspective. There are many facts that are missing from the pure anger that you express towards Israel's position. Every human life has value, the innocents killed by Israel's military and the equally innocents killed my Hamas rockets. Anyone who can simplify this complex situation into sound bites like the quote above should research both sides carefully and in great detail.

Jeff

[debbus]

Let's remember that government is not the people no matter what country. That is like criticizing "Americans" for bombing Iraq. The war goes on whether you or I like it or not and we are responsible for America's actions. There is never a good guy when it comes to war. That's the danger. By believing that someone else is wrong and you are right and because of being "the good guy" it is ok to kill-that's what the Bush administration has done. I am Jewish and I am disgusted by what is going on with Israel. Anytime innocents are killed it is genocide no matter what side you are on. A million Iraqis dying for freedom? come on!! War makes war, hate makes more hate.

[debbus]

I also have to say something about dogma and religion. Yes, any dogma should be questioned. Being Jewish for me is my culture, not necessarily a set of rules that I must live by. Those I choose for myself. Do I feel as if I am one of the chosen people? No-be careful not to generalize about the Jewish religion and the Jewish people. We have shared culture and culture runs deep.


Ditto...
For whatever reason Israel seems to think it is entirely beyond reproach.
Selective memory doesn't help the situation much either.
What part of the word ghetto don't they remember ?
The Palestinians have been marginalized, and pushed into huge ghettos
and left to rot there for over 50 years.
The good news about all this chaos is that for the first time that I can recall people are no longer blindly sympathetic to Israel.
The Israeli Army has (for as long as I can remember) made it a point to shoot cameramen, emergency aide workers, U.N. workers, and ambulances.
Schools and hospitals be damned...better to destroy a hospital and kill a bunch of kids than to let a potential bad guy hide out among civilians.
But we need also remember that American soldiers have been doing this sort of crap ever since I can remember too.This latest Israeli bombing and invasion was planned to coincide with Bush's last days in office (and prior to Obama taking office). The bombing (and invasion) was planned over 6 months ago, and was in no way caused by rocket fire into Israeli territory.
That was merely another excuse to do what they already intended to do
Eventually people will wake up to Israel's poor me ploy.
Knowing this and being angry at Israel for their callous way does not make me an anti Semite.
It just makes me angry at Israel, and its war mongering, land grabbing, abusively unawakened leadership.
Seems to me that as being God's 'chosen people' they would demonstrate something other than arrogance, violence, cruelty and never ending excuses for their obscene behavior.
But then maybe I'm missing something here.
Russ

[elienos]

Maybe I should have written what I wrote on the protest thread over here. This is what I wrote in response to a post about who breeched the ceasefire. There are some good links at the bottom about pro-palestinian sympathies coming from Jews. Some Jews consider Zionism as a form or at least a perpetuator or anti-semitism...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course people are going to shoot rockets if they live in the concentration camp called Gaza. well not of course, but expected. Israel has been killing gazans forever. The rockets from Gaza have been going one for more than ten years, right? Those Palestinians that Supposedly didn't exist when the Euro Jewish settlers started colonizing (yeah right). Anyway, the problem is that repressive and unjust peace really isn't peace? So yeah, it doesn't really matter who stopped the cease fire. It has been proven time and time again that killing people does not create peace and security, but more pain and death and more hate, thus Isreal is not helping anybody by attacking Palestine in this manner. They act like they are trying to shoot their way to a solution. They have been itching to attack somebody since Bush rejected their request to invade Iran...

But it seems that Isreal is no longer winning the PR war...maybe this is why they timed this attack...they don't have much time left. Only Bush would support a bloody attack like this one. More and more Jews around the world are speaking out against Isreal and it's colonization. Here's a few links illustrate this:

https://www.ijsn.net/home/

https://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...&sn=002&sc=970

[MsTerry]

OK, I"ll give you some details
citizens killed by Israel sofar 500
citzens killed by Hamas 1




. Every human life has value, the innocents killed by Israel's military and the equally innocents killed my Hamas rockets. Anyone who can simplify this complex situation into sound bites like the quote above should research both sides carefully and in great detail.

Jeff

[Hot Compost]

The good news about all this chaos is that for the first time that I can recall people are no longer blindly sympathetic to Israel.

The Israeli Army has (for as long as I can remember) made it a point to shoot cameramen, emergency aide workers, U.N. workers, and ambulances.

and Rachel Corrie.

[elienos]

To add to my above post, the best part of the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network website (www.ijsn.net) is their charter. There is some good analysis here...https://www.ijsn.net/about_us/charter/

[ferrante]

I am not an anti-semite, in fact my daughter has been raised in the the Jewish faith and I completely see the distress that they find themselves.

I also see the position of the Palistinians. In 1945 they were pushed off their land (like the American indians) and forced to accept the intrusion of the Jews.

I think what is needed is economic assistance for the Palistinians from the influence that the Jews in Israel and the US have on the international and American communities. Jobs have to be created for Muslims that will give them a reason to be alive. The world refuses to go in that direction.

I also take issue with your words " dare " and " criticize ". This approach only keeps us from finding a resolution.

Robert


If you dare criticize Israel for what it's doing now (or for anything else, for that matter) then you are necessarily an anti-semite. Israel is irreproachable in anything it does, no matter how wrong or horrible it may be. Israel is always right.

I challenge anyone to say otherwise.

Edward

[d-cat]

How seriously can one take the accusation of racism coming from a group who tells their people that they are God's Chosen One?

[Hot Compost]

I'm glad people are comfortable talking about this. I think Israel is so far divorced from "neighborliness" ... this is what it looks like when people are put in a concentration camp & killed. what's happening in the Gaza.

Most of us were not born at the time of the Holocaust. Now we get to see it and feel that horrible feeling of not being able to stop it.

[babaruss]

Jeff, I was not aiming for a 'balanced perspective' What I was doing was stating how I feel, what I have observed, and what I think about Israel's never ending war on it's neighbors.
I could say (and have said) the same things about America.
Israel at this time places zero value on Palestinian lives, and that's a fact.
They are quite content with killing a hundred civilians for every Israeli life taken.
American military used the cop out 'inevitable colateral damage' to justify the killing of civilians...be that Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan...where ever. Israel uses the same lame excuse to justify it's brutal assault on Palestinian civilians, hospitals, aide workers etc.
You cannot say that Israel's approach to the Palestinian 'problem' has at any time been humane.
You cannot possibly show me that Israel is not grabbing land...it is blatantly
obvious that this is indeed their intent as far as Palestine is concerned.
Israel has a weapons arsenal almost as large as the U.S. no one needs that much armament...especially for such a small country's defenses.
War monger is the perfect name for a country like that.
It is the perfect name for a country like the U.S. or any of a number of other nations which profit by war...or at least prefer war 'solutions' to peaceful ones.
Please show me a more balanced perspective here Jeff...show me where I am wrong. I really am open to seeing things in a different way.
Do not assume I am unfamiliar with the history of the Jews.
Do not assume I am unfamiliar with their cousins the Arabs.
I do not feel expressing my anger at the Israeli government is wrong
I often express my anger at my own government.
I've expressed my anger at the arrogance of the Mormon church which destroyed all non Mormon settlers, and Native Americans in it's quest for the 'promised Land'.
I expressed my anger at the pilgrims who came here to escape a repressive, brutal, church only to become brutally repressive here.
Arrogance is arrogance and cruelty is cruelty.
I am indicting a nation's attitude and behavior here not it's people.
Russ





"It just makes me angry at Israel, and its war mongering, land grabbing, abusively unawakened leadership. Seems to me that as being God's 'chosen people' they would demonstrate something other than arrogance, violence, cruelty and never ending excuses for their obscene behavior. But then maybe I'm missing something here."

What I believe you are missing is a balanced perspective. There are many facts that are missing from the pure anger that you express towards Israel's position. Every human life has value, the innocents killed by Israel's military and the equally innocents killed my Hamas rockets. Anyone who can simplify this complex situation into sound bites like the quote above should research both sides carefully and in great detail.

Jeff

[babaruss]

I'm going to have to clarify something here.
I was talking about Israel only, and the very real mind set of being the 'chosen people' fighting for their 'promised land'.
In that frame work I tried to express a desire to see those 'chosen people of God' acting in a manner which expressed a more compassionate, intelligent, creative, God, rather than clinging to their ancient vindictive war God YahWeh.
Russ


..... Do I feel as if I am one of the chosen people? No-be careful not to generalize about the Jewish religion and the Jewish people. We have shared culture and culture runs deep.

[babaruss]

Remember we are talking about governments here, not individuals!

Read this article and then tell me why I should not be angry at Israel. <cite class="caption"></cite><!-- end #main-media -->

<!-- end .primary-media --> <!-- end .related-media --> JERUSALEM – Human Rights Watch said Sunday that Israel's military has fired artillery shells with the incendiary agent white phosphorus into Gaza and a doctor there said the chemical was suspected in the case of 10 burn victims who had skin peeling off their faces and bodies.
Researchers in Israel from the rights group witnessed hours of artillery bombardments that sent trails of burning smoke indicating white phosphorus over the Jebaliya refugee camp in northern Gaza. But they could not confirm injuries on the ground because they have been barred from entering the territory.
The chief doctor at Nasser Hospital in southern Gaza said he treated several victims there with serious burns that might have been caused by phosphorus. He said, however, that he did not have the resources or expertise to say with certainty what caused the injuries.
The substance can cause serious burns if it touches the skin and can spark fires on the ground, the rights group said in a written statement calling on Israel not to use it in crowded areas of Gaza.
Military spokeswoman Maj. Avital Leibovich refused to comment directly on whether Israel was using phosphorus, but said the army was "using its munitions in accordance with international law."
Israel used white phosphorus in its 34-day war with Hezbollah in Lebanon in 2006. The U.S. military in Iraq used the incendiary during a November 2004 operation against insurgents in the city of Fallujah.
An AP photographer and a TV crew based in Gaza visited Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis on Sunday and recorded images of several burn patients.
One of them, Haitham Tahseen, recalled sitting outside his home with his family in the morning when something exploded above them.
"Suddenly, I saw bombs coming with white smoke," said the man, whose burned face was covered with medical cream. "It looked very red and it had white smoke. That's the first time I've seen such a thing."
His cousin, in another hospital bed, was more severely burned, with patches of skin peeling off his face and body, and had to be wrapped with thick white bandages.
The hospital's chief doctor, Youssef Abu Rish, said the burns were not from contact with fire, but he couldn't say what sort of substance caused them. He said information he collected on the Internet indicated it could have been white phosphorus.
White phosphorus is not considered a chemical weapon, and militaries are permitted under laws of warfare to use it in artillery shells, bombs and rockets to create smoke screens to hide troop movements as well as bright bursts in the air to illuminate battlefields at night.
Israel is not party to a convention regulating its use. Under customary laws of war, however, Israel would be expected to take all feasible precautions to minimize the impact of white phosphorus on civilians, Human Rights Watch said.
"What we're saying is the use of white phosphorus in densely populated areas like a refugee camp is showing that the Israelis are not taking all feasible precautions," said Marc Garlasco, a senior military analyst for the rights group. "It's just an unnecessary risk to the civilian population, not only in the potential for wounds but also for burning homes and infrastructure."
Garlasco was among researchers on a ridge about a mile (1.5 kilometers) from the Gaza border who observed the shelling from a 155mm artillery unit on Friday and Saturday.
Some of the burning trails of smoke caused fires on the ground that appeared to go out after a few minutes, said Garlasco, who formerly worked at the Pentagon where he was in charge of recommending high-value targets for airstrikes during the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
Each 155mm shell contains 116 of what Garlasco described as wafers doused in phosphorus that can be spread over an area as large as a sports field, depending on the height at which it detonates. The phosphorus ignites when it comes in contact with oxygen.
Human Rights Watch has not been able to confirm whether there have been any civilian casualties from phosphorus. The group has a consultant working for it inside Gaza but he has been unable to move around due to the danger. Foreign journalists have also been barred from entering Gaza.
Garlasco said photos published Thursday in British newspaper The Times showed Israeli units handling American-manufactured white phosphorus shells with fuses on them.

[Hot Compost]

i think in the Jewish religion & culture, you are welcome in church whether or not you believe in God. this is different from Christianity & Islam, which both seem to demand a belief in God.

Jewish rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu & his son had this to say about relations with the Palestinians -

"Eliyahu could not be reached for an interview. However, Eliyahu's son, Shmuel Eliyahu, who is chief rabbi of Safed, said his father opposed a ground troop incursion into Gaza that would endanger IDF soldiers. Rather, he advocated carpet bombing the general area from which the Kassams were launched, regardless of the price in Palestinian life.

"If they don't stop after we kill 100, then we must kill a thousand," said Shmuel Eliyahu. "And if they do not stop after 1,000 then we must kill 10,000. If they still don't stop we must kill 100,000, even a million. Whatever it takes to make them stop."

In the letter, Eliyahu quoted from Psalms. "I will pursue my enemies and apprehend them and I will not desist until I have eradicated them."

Eliyahu wrote that "This is a message to all leaders of the Jewish people not to be compassionate with those who shoot [rockets] at civilians in their houses." "

Eliyahu advocates carpet bombing Gaza | Israel | Jerusalem Post (https://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1180527966693&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

That article in the Jerusalem Post entitled "Elihaho advocates carpet bombing Gaza".

I have found that Christian ministers sometimes inject a lot of geo-political content into their sermons.

I got on the mailing list of this church in Rancho Santa Fe. "Pastor Bob" uses "Prophecy Update" lectures to coach his flock on geo-politics.

"Iran is bad
Russia is bad
Secular humanist Europe is bad
if you want to go to Heaven, you have to support Israel."

that's in the archives at
Horizon Christian Fellowship :: Home Page :: San Diego North County Church (https://www.horizon.org/)

if it was just some guy mumbling on a street corner, i wouldn't be worried. however, since that is the largest church in one of the wealthiest cities in San Diego, their "flock" contains some very influential people. & their views are coincident with those of the guy in the White House.

I think we are seeing the end-game of the Bush-Israel foreign policy. enacted now in Gaza.

[elienos]

How do you suppose dealing with a culture that has no quams using citizens, children, elderly, schools, ambulances, etc to wage war?
Paleez, if you think they are just defending themselves.

and no..i am not advocating carpet bombing.

and the fact that that was published in an Israeli post speaks to the fact that Israeli's are at least engaged in debate...can we say that about radical islamists?


I am really bummed to see someone under the impression that Palestinian Culture has no qualms about "using citizens, children, elderly, schools, ambulances, etc to wage war?" The fact is that we (or at least I) have been hearing the Zionist pro-israeli side of the story way for too long immersed in American culture. In fact I have been to Israel three times, as my brother lives there ( a rabbi). So do all of my nieces and nephews. What I saw was a very militaristic society with a lot of distate for the culture that they tried to remove from their Holyland. The propoganda encouraged looking at Palestinians as something less important than Israel, like we tend to do about all indigeous cultures and people of color, ESPECIALLY of arab and/or middle eastern cultures.
The Zionist plan didn't work so well and Israel has inherited this self-made tragedy. You know, in Israel if you don't enlist the Army for two years you are jailed. There is a good number brave young Israelis sitting there right now, completely shunned by their peers for standing for peace.

You have equated Palestinians with Radical Islam, haters and terrorists. So Israel is supported by western ideals, and they aren't?

Had we not killed all the indigenous that were here when we came, and rather fought them into a corner, we would also be facing the same sort of hate and resistance. Luckily we killed em, right? Israel is the west's military stornghold in the middle east. Yes there are radical islamists in the middle east, but there is a reason for that. Religion is not the only thing creating this hate, religion is a unifier and a tool to rationalize the darkest acts of our (human) race.

[Neshamah]

I just want to remind everyone that the media in Israel is far more open and willing to criticize the government than is possible in Gaza, Lebanon, et cetera. The images we get from Gaza and Lebanon are those that Hamas and Hizbollah permit. That's why you will rarely, if ever see Hamas fighters, the actual rocket launchers, or the extent to which Hamas deliberately uses human shields.

I also want to remind everyone of the big picture.

The Middle East is a big place; Israel is about the size of New Jersey. Israel nonetheless absorbed about 600,000 Jewish refugees from other parts of the Arab world in 1948. Yet, the Arab world refused, and after 60 years continues to refuse, to absorb the then similar number of Arab refugees. It is long overdue for the world community to pressure Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan to grant citizenship to the refugees and resettle them in permanent homes. Israel cannot be expected to solve this all by itself.

I was going to stay out of this discussion, but while I am here, let me remind everyone that 'Palestine' is a region of the world and is no more limited to non-Jews than 'America' is to the United States. The Arab world's successful co-opting of 'Palestinian' to mean non-Jewish and that there must therefore be a 'Palestinian' state (other than Jordan) is a perfect example of language being changed to artificially shift the dialogue.

The refugees caught in the middle of all this are no more to blame than Israel, and the ones not directly targeting innocents deserve our sympathy and a concerted effort from all the countries that have done them wrong. However, the solution to this problem has to involve responsibility from the entire Middle East, not just Israel and U.S. diplomats.

We have a responsibility to point out the errors in Israel's policies, but a one-sided assault on the grounds that only Israel can be expected to "know better, act more human, and sit at the negotiating table and come up with viable approaches to this situation" dehumanizes Hamas. Deliberately targeting civilians, using human shields, and so forth is equally wrong no matter your religion or the color of your skin. One-sided assaults like this are ignored by the majority of Americans and rightly so. If you want to have any credibility in your criticism of Israel, you need to keep their actions in perspective.

~ Neshamah

[MsTerry]

Kathryn
I am surprised that you identify your self as a psychologist

To clarify...I do not identify with any party, any position.
I am a psychologist and am simply curious, open and in constant practice of dis-identifying with any position.



Do you really think that if they got their land (not palestinians themselves, but the radical gov.) that they would be happy and satisfied and begin to prosper?


Is this an example of how to dis-identify oneself from pre-conceived notions about 'uncivilized' Palestinians?


There is no denying that for whatever reasons, Radical Islamists have no quams martyring themselves, their children etc. As a psychologist has it occurred to you, that people who have nothing to live for, will find things they can die for?

And the education, by Hamas, of the children is pretty deplorableAre you talking from personal experience, anecdotal evidence or scientific research?


Check out farfor the mouse on youtubeI know there are some typos, but what do you really mean with this? Are we to educate ourselves on YouTube now?

[MsTerry]

All you do is rehashing Zionist propaganda.
Israel did not take in refugees, they are actively recruiting bodies to occupy Palestinian land.
Except of course the black jews from Africa, they have to stay in line a little longer.


I just want to remind everyone that the media in Israel is far more open and willing to criticize the government than is possible in Gaza, Lebanon, et cetera. The images we get from Gaza and Lebanon are those that Hamas and Hizbollah permit. That's why you will rarely, if ever see Hamas fighters, the actual rocket launchers, or the extent to which Hamas deliberately uses human shields.

If the Israeli media is so open, how come they don't show those pictures?
Could it be that no foreign journalists are allowed to take pictures? Cameras smashed or simply arrested?
Wake up Neshamah, open up your soul

[babaruss]

For someone who claims to be a psychologist as well as pro-peace and neutral, you sure come across as anti Palestinian !!!
Perhaps this is an experiment of group psychology....I sure hope so.
Otherwise in my opinion, you are coming across pretty badly here.
Perhaps when you stop making such one sided judgements you'll come across as someone who truly cares about peace for all sentient beings.
Every post of yours has made me more suspicious of your motives.
I actually see a positive opportunity for people to discuss what is going on in Israel and Palestine.
Anger and frustration is part of that discussion.
Reflecting on the various perspectives is also part of the discussion
I think it's a healthy thing to do.
More often than not...at the end of such discussions... I come away with a perspective I did not have when I first entered into it.


[quote=Kathryn
I am really bummed to see someone under the impression that Palestinian Culture has no qualms about "using citizens, children, elderly, schools, ambulances, etc to wage war?"

[JandA]

Ms Terry,

What is consistent in all your posts is that those who do not agree with you are personally attacked. Try to keep to facts if you can; there is more chance than you position will be seen as based on reason rather than bile.

Jeff

[babaruss]

I'm not quite on the same page as you here Ms. Terry.
My thought was more in the line with the idea they were importing large numbers of Jews into Israel to ensure a Jewish majority, as well as to create a work force, military personel etc.
At no time did I ever believe humanitarian assistance was being offered to the Jews imported to Israel.
But then perhaps I'm just being a cynic.
Endless wars have that effect on me.
Funny how the Jewish, Christian, and Arab mystics, (Sufi included) were so very accepting of each others beliefs...in fact drew from each other only to have those religions now turn back to separate, fundamental, maddening belief systems. But then again perhaps that should be another discussion/
Russ


All you do is rehashing Zionist propaganda.
Israel did not take in refugees, they are actively recruiting bodies to occupy Palestinian land.
Except of course the black jews from Africa, they have to stay in line a little longer...snip...

[MsTerry]

:thumbsup:Thanks for your thumbs up Jeff and Amy :thumbsup:
Now what are your facts exactly again?
Have you two been able to produce any, or is it your aim to attack the messenger instead of the message?


Ms Terry,

What is consistent in all your posts is that those who do not agree with you are personally attacked. Try to keep to facts if you can; there is more chance than you position will be seen as based on reason rather than bile.

Jeff

[MsTerry]

Kathryn,
I am surprised that you have decided to take the easy way out by taking a swipe at others and washing your hands in innocence at the same time.
More than one person feels that your posts need, (to put it mildly) a little more explanation and exploration. There is nothing wrong with that. People on this board don't take ANYTHING for granted and will question statements that are nebulous.
That's why it is called a discussion, if it was just a posting of opinions without the feedback, it goes in a different category.

Reflecting on the various perspectives is also part of the discussion
I think it's a healthy thing to do.
More often than not...at the end of such discussions... I come away with a perspective I did not have when I first entered into it.
We can walk away with whatever we want to.


Engaging in these online discussions seemed like a good idea. But I have deleted my posts because it just feels icky now.

I am sad that members question my motives (whatever that means), call me anti-palestinian (funny b/c of the title of this thread) and personally attack me because i have disagreed with them or have put information out there that may be contraversial; I have become disheartened.

Without face to face interaction, this just feels wrong.

Oh well. I tried.

[Neshamah]

Kathryn,

Please do not judge WaccoBB by MsTerry (or Valley Oak.) Insults and buzzwords like "propaganda" or "fascist" are often easier to throw around than to provide reasoned arguments. (They provide arguments too, but they sometimes get lost among the insulting window dressing.)

I think this format provides a place for uninhibited honesty at the expense of the politeness you get from face-to-face conversation. Every medium has its trade-offs.

~ Neshamah

[MsTerry]

I am not surprised that you choose not answer some basic questions that I posted in response to your ideology.
It appears that you prefer to discredit the messenger ( a Anti-defemation League tactic) in order not to have to deal with the message.


Kathryn,

Please do not judge WaccoBB by MsTerry (or Valley Oak.) Insults and buzzwords like "propaganda" or "fascist" are often easier to throw around than to provide reasoned arguments. (They provide arguments too, but they sometimes get lost among the insulting window dressing.)

I think this format provides a place for uninhibited honesty at the expense of the politeness you get from face-to-face conversation. Every medium has its trade-offs.

~ Neshamah

[JandA]

Kathryn,
Please do not judge WaccoBB by MsTerry (or Valley Oak.) Insults and buzzwords like "propaganda" or "fascist" are often easier to throw around than to provide reasoned arguments. (They provide arguments too, but they sometimes get lost among the insulting window dressing.)
~ Neshamah
Neshamah,

Thank you for making this obvious point.
Ms Terry continues to use name calling to try and invalidate other people's experience. Let's see, MsTerry had tried:

1- Branding other opinions as "Anti-Defamation League tactics"
2- Dismissing arguments as "Zionist propaganda"
3- Questioning other people's credentials (" I am surprised you identify yourself as a psychologist")

It is probably best to just ignore the personal slights and present your perspectives supported by factual information.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

If we want to prevent further tragedies in this conflict - let alone frame the basis for its resolution - then we have to go behind the daily headlines that cloud understanding and probe the real basis of the Israeli-Hamas conflict.

The trigger for the present hostilities was the deliberate and consistent attack on Israeli citizens by Hamas. Over 6,000 rockets and mortar shells have been launched at Israel since its Gaza withdrawal in the summer of 2005, including hundreds while the supposed truce between Hamas and Israel was in effect. When Hamas then unilaterally declared the truce over and tripled its rocket-fire, Israel was obliged to act in self-defense. And, by the way, it is Hamas who has refused to let International observers in (see the Huffington Post).

This fact is that Hamas, in its charter as well as its contemporary declarations, calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews wherever they may be. Jews everywhere - not just in Israel - are referred to as inherently evil, as responsible for all the evils of the world, as defilers of Islam, and, repeatedly during these hostilities, as the "sons of apes and pigs." This genocidal anti-Semitism - and I do not use these words lightly or easily, but there are no other words to describe what is affirmed in these genocidal calls, covenants and declarations - this culture of hatred, this is where it all begins. Also remember that Hamas grew out of the the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, an organization whose self-desribed motto is ""Allah is our goal; the Messenger is our model; the Koran is our constitution; jihad is our means; and martyrdom in the way of Allah is our aspiration." Even Mosab Hassan Yousef, son of Sheikh Hassan Yousef, one of the most influential leaders of Hamas, says that Hamas betrays the Palestinian cause and tortures its members.

So, is there a resolution? I sorely hope so. The rate of attacks against Jews in Eurpoe has skyrocketed since Israel has responded to the Hamas rocket fire. The first step is for Hamas to stop the rockets and declare that Israel has a right to exist. Then the onus will truly be on Israel to do the right thing and aid Palestinian society.

Shalom and Salaam

Jeff

[Zeno Swijtink]

Neshamah,

Thank you for making this obvious point.
Ms Terry continues to use name calling to try and invalidate other people's experience. Let's see, MsTerry had tried:

1- Branding other opinions as "Anti-Defamation League tactics"
2- Dismissing arguments as "Zionist propaganda"
3- Questioning other people's credentials (" I am surprised you identify yourself as a psychologist")

It is probably best to just ignore the personal slights and present your perspectives supported by factual information.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

If we want to prevent further tragedies in this conflict - let alone frame the basis for its resolution - then we have to go behind the daily headlines that cloud understanding and probe the real basis of the Israeli-Hamas conflict.

The trigger for the present hostilities was the deliberate and consistent attack on Israeli citizens by Hamas. Over 6,000 rockets and mortar shells have been launched at Israel since its Gaza withdrawal in the summer of 2005, including hundreds while the supposed truce between Hamas and Israel was in effect. When Hamas then unilaterally declared the truce over and tripled its rocket-fire, Israel was obliged to act in self-defense. And, by the way, it is Hamas who has refused to let International observers in (see the Huffington Post).

This fact is that Hamas, in its charter as well as its contemporary declarations, calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews wherever they may be. Jews everywhere - not just in Israel - are referred to as inherently evil, as responsible for all the evils of the world, as defilers of Islam, and, repeatedly during these hostilities, as the "sons of apes and pigs." This genocidal anti-Semitism - and I do not use these words lightly or easily, but there are no other words to describe what is affirmed in these genocidal calls, covenants and declarations - this culture of hatred, this is where it all begins. Also remember that Hamas grew out of the the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, an organization whose self-desribed motto is ""Allah is our goal; the Messenger is our model; the Koran is our constitution; jihad is our means; and martyrdom in the way of Allah is our aspiration." Even Mosab Hassan Yousef, son of Sheikh Hassan Yousef, one of the most influential leaders of Hamas, says that Hamas betrays the Palestinian cause and tortures its members.

So, is there a resolution? I sorely hope so. The rate of attacks against Jews in Eurpoe has skyrocketed since Israel has responded to the Hamas rocket fire. The first step is for Hamas to stop the rockets and declare that Israel has a right to exist. Then the onus will truly be on Israel to do the right thing and aid Palestinian society.

Shalom and Salaam

Jeff

This response is Zionist propaganda - and I do not use these words lightly or easily, but there are no other words to describe this highly selective cherry picking of a few points without looking at the bigger history, starting at least with the Diaspora in the 8th–6th centuries BC, and the consequent ritual reciting of "L’shana ha’ba-ah b’Yerushalayim," ("Next year in Jerusalem") and Zionism, the British colonization of the area, the Holocaust of European Jews by the Germans.

[JandA]

This response is Zionist propaganda - and I do not use these words lightly or easily, but there are no other words to describe this highly selective cherry picking of a few points without looking at the bigger history, starting at least with the Diaspora in the 8th–6th centuries BC, and the consequent ritual reciting of "L’shana ha’ba-ah b’Yerushalayim," ("Next year in Jerusalem") and Zionism, the British colonization of the area, the Holocaust of European Jews by the Germans.

You call this "Zionist propaganda" yet you do not refute any of the evidence. Perhaps you can elaborate on the "bigger history" and explain how that humanizes Hamas attitudes and actions towards Jews.

[MsTerry]

Jeff,
You are calling the kettle black, since you are still trying to dismiss me with character assassination, but neither you or Neshamash has been able to answer my questions.



.
Ms Terry continues to use name calling to try and invalidate other people's experience.

Jeff

[MsTerry]

Jeff
Are you aware that Palestinians are refugees and held prisoners in their own country? Are you aware that the jews are building the biggest concentration camp in the world?


You call this "Zionist propaganda" yet you do not refute any of the evidence. Perhaps you can elaborate on the "bigger history" and explain how that humanizes Hamas attitudes and actions towards Jews.

[Hot Compost]

The trigger for the present hostilities was the deliberate and consistent attack on Israeli citizens by Hamas. Over 6,000 rockets and mortar shells have been launched at Israel since its Gaza withdrawal in the summer of 2005, including hundreds while the supposed truce between Hamas and Israel was in effect.

Shalom and Salaam

Jeff

they're at war.

they're at war because their land was stolen. also, many of the Palestinians do not have much to live for.

it's the Palestinians that need your wishes of "Shalom and Salaam", not us. we got it easy. we get to imagine the Hell lived by the Palestinians since 1948. they get to live it.

when i refer to 1948, i'm referring to what the Palestinians refer to as "Al Nakba". their term for the loss of 400 villages. the 60th anniversary of Israel's creation was celebrated in 2008, with not too many mentions of how Israel got the land to be created on.

it is well-described online at

Palestine Remembered, al-Nakba 1948-*פלשתינה-فلسطين في الذاكرة (https://www.palestineremembered.com/)

what the Israeli's are doing now in Gaza, this is a massively un-wise move by the Israeli's. they are losing friends and making enemies around the world.

[MsTerry]

this is an interesting article
The Last Ditch -- THE ISRAELI ORIGINS OF BUSH II'S WAR: A CLOSER LOOK by Stephen J. Sniegoski (https://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/snieg_isrorgs.htm)


they're at war.

they're at war because their land was stolen. also, many of the Palestinians do not have much to live for.

it's the Palestinians that need your wishes of "Shalom and Salaam", not us. we got it easy. we get to imagine the Hell lived by the Palestinians since 1948. they get to live it.

when i refer to 1948, i'm referring to what the Palestinians refer to as "Al Nakba". their term for the loss of 400 villages. the 60th anniversary of Israel's creation was celebrated in 2008, with not too many mentions of how Israel got the land to be created on.

it is well-described online at

Palestine Remembered, al-Nakba 1948-*פלשתינה-فلسطين في الذاكرة (https://www.palestineremembered.com/)

what the Israeli's are doing now in Gaza, this is a massively un-wise move by the Israeli's. they are losing friends and making enemies around the world.

[elienos]

Thanks HotCOmpost. I hope that this debate helps people to open their minds some, take a historic inventory of ourselves and Israel. We are connected to this too, here in the US. Hopefully this debate, even as people look for more articles to back up their side of the argument, actually become more educated and see the deeper implications and meanings of this of this problem. I personally blame Israel for this problem, it is hard and impossible, but I also see Israeli as responsible for the solution to the problem. Crushing all Palestinians is not a acceptable solution.

I am disgusted at their use of burning agents on civilians. Humanitarian groups had the death toll at 900 Gaza civilians this morning and 3 Israeli. Since people are getting mad for others pointing out Zionist propaganda I will talk about my personal experience.

I have not been to Israel since Hamas took power. The conversations I heard about Palestinians last time I was there were totally dehumanizing. Savage and stupid according to the folks I heard. Two boys, 10 and 11 were shot down by Israeli soldiers last I was there, for throwing rocks at them. I decided I couldn't go back anymore to visit my family.

The Gaza strip is so small, that I am positive, besides living in hell, every Gazan has lost family to Israeli violence. I am sure the Hamas government has lost many friends and family to Israeli fire...before they took power. I do not see why people wonder why folks with nothing to live for but death, while being crushed by "invaders" would turn more and more to radical Islam. Radical Islam gives them an okay to act on the hate and pain and misery that they endure because of their race. Israeli violence, IMHO creates exactly what is professes to fight. The same way US violence creates just what we profess to fight...TERRORISM. If you look deeply into the history of European culture, US culture, Israeli culture WE BECOME/ARE WHAT WE PROFESS TO BE FIGHTING. We (the idea/image/action of our country) project ourselves onto others. We have become terrorists in the eyes of so many. We are perpetuating Radical Islam. Yes, Radical Islam abuses religion, but we and inextricably intertwined in this war.

I know three folks who have emigrated here from Israel. One of them is active in the fight to liberate Palestine from here. He actively counters his counties propaganda. Another is not active. She was my daycare provider. When we were talking about the importance of being bilingual, she confessed to me that she hadn't taught her children Hebrew. She confessed it was because of some sort of shame that she couldn't get rid about her homeland and what they are doing in Palestine (she said this last year). The third usually avoids the conversation. He just likes music.

Of the eight immigrants I met in Israel (they immigrated from various places to Israel) they were some of the most Zionist Jews I have ever met. Many of the immigrants to Israel are also converts to the religion, which sort of blurs the definition of Zionism and Jew as well. Jews in Israel are much more mixed than Jews in the US. But the point is that Israel has generally been collecting the most Zionist of all Jews as they are the ones attracted to the war-torn country. They have also been loosing folks who don't agree with it's aggression...which is helping escalate the violence and turn the country into an impossible predicament.

Again I will say...What is happening in Gaza will not make the Israeli more safe. It will create more terror. Free Palestine.

Again I urge folks to read the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network's Charter, which I provided a link to above.




they're at war.

they're at war because their land was stolen. also, many of the Palestinians do not have much to live for.

it's the Palestinians that need your wishes of "Shalom and Salaam", not us. we got it easy. we get to imagine the Hell lived by the Palestinians since 1948. they get to live it.

when i refer to 1948, i'm referring to what the Palestinians refer to as "Al Nakba". their term for the loss of 400 villages. the 60th anniversary of Israel's creation was celebrated in 2008, with not too many mentions of how Israel got the land to be created on.

it is well-described online at

Palestine Remembered, al-Nakba 1948-*???????-?????? ?? ??????? (https://www.palestineremembered.com/)

what the Israeli's are doing now in Gaza, this is a massively un-wise move by the Israeli's. they are losing friends and making enemies around the world.

[Neshamah]

Zeno Swijtink,

Almost any words are fine if you can support them. Jews have lived not just in Israel but throughout the Middle East continuously for 2-3 thousand years (depending on your definition of Jewish) until the 20th Century. Until the 20th Century, Jews were generally better off in the Muslim world than in the Christian world. What changed all that is European colonialism, and unfortunately, Israel is bearing all the blame earned by the Western World, and the UN is all too happy to keep it that way. I don't know if any of this is what you were getting at, but it hardly negates anything I've said.

Since 1948, Jews in the Middle East have been concentrated into Israel while Arabs can still live everywhere, including Israel where they have representation in the Knesset. (Name an Arab country where Jews have any civic representation whatsoever.) For the UN and the Muslim world who cannot fathom why the Jews or the Muslims and Christians who live near them should matter to anyone, eliminating the Jewish majority and overcrowding the country with refugees that should have been resettled 60 years ago seems okay. It is just not enough that they already absorbed Jewish refugees from the rest of the Middle East (not to mention Europe, Russia, and every other part of the world that didn't want them.)

You are right that Jews have long sought to return to Israel, but many never left. The Babylonian Exile was primarily an exile of the upper classes. The Palestinian Talmud is just as old if not older than the Babylonian one. Israel has Jews and Arabs living together in peace, but it does not have unlimited resources and cannot be expected to give up its Jewish majority, especially when the rest of the Middle East has no Jews at all. Imagine if Republicans and Democrats were suddenly outnumbered by Muslims who believed the Constitution should reflect Shariah and they have the votes and court appointments to amend it accordingly! Distinctly American ideals would not exist without a majority that supports them. I am not saying Shariah is not valuable, but American ideals are valuable too, and the world should be big enough for both. Similarly, the Middle East ought to be big enough for Muslims, Jews, and Christians, and the world is complaining that tiny Israel is not big enough for a Muslim majority. (Or they miss the forest, focus on the trees, and say that rocket attacks and human shields are okay, but attempting to halt rocket attacks or remove a terrorist organization from power is not.)

If we cannot at least agree that Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan need to start giving land and citizenship to the refugees today so that they can permanently settle and build lives of their own, then there's not much point in me staying in this thread. There are plenty of other topics on which we can find common ground.

~ Neshamah



This response is Zionist propaganda - and I do not use these words lightly or easily, but there are no other words to describe this highly selective cherry picking of a few points without looking at the bigger history, starting at least with the Diaspora in the 8th–6th centuries BC, and the consequent ritual reciting of "L’shana ha’ba-ah b’Yerushalayim," ("Next year in Jerusalem") and Zionism, the British colonization of the area, the Holocaust of European Jews by the Germans.

[d-cat]

Israel's foreign minister expresses Tel Aviv's grave concern over "a wave of anti-Semitism" sparked by the Israeli offensive in Gaza.
Press TV - Israel feels hurt by global condemnation (https://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=81936&sectionid=351020202)

[babaruss]

Whether I can agree with Neshamah or not doesn't really matter.
Staying with this thread to the end would be very useful to me...albeit surely painful to others.
My eyes are raw from going to all the sites recommended by various members (as well as from going to the many links at those recommended sites).
There has been so much new information (at least for me) offered here that I am appreciative of this thread. I am not at all grateful for the pain and discomfort it seems to cause some of us, but grateful the larger understanding of this current conflict.
It might well be good if someone offered land and resources to resettle or at least expand the Palestinian territory...but who can say that would really bring an end to the problem. The ravages of never a ending war, plus what amounts to multiple generations being confined to a ghetto is not something which will pass away quickly.
I'd like to read more ideas about how to resolve this conflict rather than continuing to explain it away, or justify the problem.
Russ



[quote=Neshamah;79287]Zeno Swijtink,............If we cannot at least agree that Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan need to start giving land and citizenship to the refugees today so that they can permanently settle and build lives of their own, then there's not much point in me staying in this thread. There are plenty of other topics on which we can find common ground........quote]

[Photoguy]

Neshamah,
Arabs may be allowed to live in Israel, but they do not have the full rights of citizens. They have no representation in the military. What happens when, through birth rates, the Arabs outnumber the Jews? If you want democracy it seems then the Arabs could then re-"imminent domain" the land that was Palestinian and return it to them. Make the Israeli Jews second class citizens...If history is any indicator Jews will be treated better in an Arab Israel than Arabs are treated in a Jewish Israel.


Zeno Swijtink,

Almost any words are fine if you can support them. Jews have lived not just in Israel but throughout the Middle East continuously for 2-3 thousand years (depending on your definition of Jewish) until the 20th Century. Until the 20th Century, Jews were generally better off in the Muslim world than in the Christian world. What changed all that is European colonialism, and unfortunately, Israel is bearing all the blame earned by the Western World, and the UN is all too happy to keep it that way. I don't know if any of this is what you were getting at, but it hardly negates anything I've said.

Since 1948, Jews in the Middle East have been concentrated into Israel while Arabs can still live everywhere, including Israel where they have representation in the Knesset. (Name an Arab country where Jews have any civic representation whatsoever.) For the UN and the Muslim world who cannot fathom why the Jews or the Muslims and Christians who live near them should matter to anyone, eliminating the Jewish majority and overcrowding the country with refugees that should have been resettled 60 years ago seems okay. It is just not enough that they already absorbed Jewish refugees from the rest of the Middle East (not to mention Europe, Russia, and every other part of the world that didn't want them.)

You are right that Jews have long sought to return to Israel, but many never left. The Babylonian Exile was primarily an exile of the upper classes. The Palestinian Talmud is just as old if not older than the Babylonian one. Israel has Jews and Arabs living together in peace, but it does not have unlimited resources and cannot be expected to give up its Jewish majority, especially when the rest of the Middle East has no Jews at all. Imagine if Republicans and Democrats were suddenly outnumbered by Muslims who believed the Constitution should reflect Shariah and they have the votes and court appointments to amend it accordingly! Distinctly American ideals would not exist without a majority that supports them. I am not saying Shariah is not valuable, but American ideals are valuable too, and the world should be big enough for both. Similarly, the Middle East ought to be big enough for Muslims, Jews, and Christians, and the world is complaining that tiny Israel is not big enough for a Muslim majority. (Or they miss the forest, focus on the trees, and say that rocket attacks and human shields are okay, but attempting to halt rocket attacks or remove a terrorist organization from power is not.)

If we cannot at least agree that Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan need to start giving land and citizenship to the refugees today so that they can permanently settle and build lives of their own, then there's not much point in me staying in this thread. There are plenty of other topics on which we can find common ground.

~ Neshamah

[MsTerry]

Neshamash, have you become soulless?
Your statement is not only Zionist it is also racist!
To say that Palestinians are Arabs and therefor should move to an Arab nation is absurd.
Jews and Arabs are both semites, the only difference is their religion, unless you believe some of them are chosen by God.
Palestinians have moved to neighboring countries, you just want ALL of them to move.
Shame on you!


Zeno Swijtink,

Almost any words are fine if you can support them. Jews have lived not just in Israel but throughout the Middle East continuously for 2-3 thousand years (depending on your definition of Jewish) until the 20th Century. Until the 20th Century, Jews were generally better off in the Muslim world than in the Christian world. What changed all that is European colonialism, and unfortunately, Israel is bearing all the blame earned by the Western World, and the UN is all too happy to keep it that way. I don't know if any of this is what you were getting at, but it hardly negates anything I've said.

Since 1948, Jews in the Middle East have been concentrated into Israel while Arabs can still live everywhere, including Israel where they have representation in the Knesset. (Name an Arab country where Jews have any civic representation whatsoever.) For the UN and the Muslim world who cannot fathom why the Jews or the Muslims and Christians who live near them should matter to anyone, eliminating the Jewish majority and overcrowding the country with refugees that should have been resettled 60 years ago seems okay. It is just not enough that they already absorbed Jewish refugees from the rest of the Middle East (not to mention Europe, Russia, and every other part of the world that didn't want them.)

You are right that Jews have long sought to return to Israel, but many never left. The Babylonian Exile was primarily an exile of the upper classes. The Palestinian Talmud is just as old if not older than the Babylonian one. Israel has Jews and Arabs living together in peace, but it does not have unlimited resources and cannot be expected to give up its Jewish majority, especially when the rest of the Middle East has no Jews at all. Imagine if Republicans and Democrats were suddenly outnumbered by Muslims who believed the Constitution should reflect Shariah and they have the votes and court appointments to amend it accordingly! Distinctly American ideals would not exist without a majority that supports them. I am not saying Shariah is not valuable, but American ideals are valuable too, and the world should be big enough for both. Similarly, the Middle East ought to be big enough for Muslims, Jews, and Christians, and the world is complaining that tiny Israel is not big enough for a Muslim majority. (Or they miss the forest, focus on the trees, and say that rocket attacks and human shields are okay, but attempting to halt rocket attacks or remove a terrorist organization from power is not.)

If we cannot at least agree that Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan need to start giving land and citizenship to the refugees today so that they can permanently settle and build lives of their own, then there's not much point in me staying in this thread. There are plenty of other topics on which we can find common ground.

~ Neshamah

[Zeno Swijtink]

Neshamah,
Arabs may be allowed to live in Israel, but they do not have the full rights of citizens. They have no representation in the military. What happens when, through birth rates, the Arabs outnumber the Jews? If you want democracy it seems then the Arabs could then re-"imminent domain" the land that was Palestinian and return it to them. Make the Israeli Jews second class citizens...If history is any indicator Jews will be treated better in an Arab Israel than Arabs are treated in a Jewish Israel.

Arabs outnumbering the Jews in Israel? That's not likely to happen, because of the "Law of Return," which grands the right of "return" to any person who satisfies some technical definition of being a "Jew."

Christians, Jews, Muslims. The New Testament, the Talmud, the Koran.

The world would be better off if people would store these tribal codes in the archives, would stop teaching their children these rituals that divide.

Let's start anew and come together in harmony and cooperation. There is so much to work on together. Water scarcity. Climate Change. Overpopulation. Hunger and Poverty.

["Mad" Miles]

Dearest Waccie Debaters,

Wheeshooo, how to respond to so much pain, rage, bias, counter-bias, hyperbole, contradiction and conflict?

So far in the debate around Israel's latest atrocity I've resorted to sharing information and making a wry response to Edward (who's in limbo somewhere?) when he initiated this thread.

This issue involves a huge, twisted, complicated, utterly tragic and extensive history of exploitation, violence and defense/offence on many sides.

Here goes. This is what I know and have experienced.

In the early seventies I read Jews, God and History I came out of that pretty much a teenage zionist. I thought the Jewish people were the most educated, intelligent, creative and long-suffering of all the peoples in human history. It didn't hurt that I was raised Episcopalian, and was beginning to, among other media, start a diet of Leon Uris novels. Mila 18, Exodus, etc. I also had seen the film with Paul Newman, and that exciting film about the founding of Israel with Kirk Douglas as the American (U.S.) Jew who at first dismisses but then joins the fight against the evil Arab hordes slavering to kill every Jew in Palestine or for Plan B to "drive them into the sea".

(Recently I watched the last hour of "Exodus" on cable. Now that I know more of the history of the Irgun terror campaign against the British occupation of Palestine, i.e. the bombing of the King David Hotel, and the terror campaign to drive out the Palestinian Arabs once the war started, I could spot the blatant lies and heavy-handed propaganda in the film. Still, it's a stirring and exciting adventure! But, "We just want to live in peace with the Arabs, they just won't let us." What a total crock!)

In the spring of 1971 I became a born-again/Jesus Freak. Bill Bright et al with their Campus Crusade for Christ suckered me in. That's another story but I mention it because I became even more partisan for Israel due to all the eschatological study of the book of Revelations that was to come and is endemic in that evangelical/pentacostal Southern Baptist culture.

But I still kept reading the daily paper.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that it was also in the early seventies that I read a series of long articles in Life magazine detailing the Holocaust/Shoah. I came to think that any people who had suffered such a horrible, unprecedented, unuterably evil, persecution and slaughter, that the survivors deserved anything they pretty much wanted. And if that meant a new Israel as homeland for them, so be it. It's the least they should expect, demand and deserve. I pretty much still agree with that conclusion, with the exceptions that I will soon adumbrate (outline and summarize).

I flushed my personal relationship with Yahweh in the spring of '75, Freshman year in college. That's another story as I said. I kept reading and studied History, Philosophy and Social Science with an emphasis on Social and Political Thought. I became a Leftist Radical, anti-authoritarian, anti-Marxist-Leninist. I organized against campus racist violence that was directed at Latinos. I became the South African Anti-Apartheid Divestment Campaign organizer for UC Irvine '77-'79. I organized the first administration building occupation/sit-in since the Cambodia invasion in '72. All thirteen of us seized the lobby. After getting permission to stay overnight, sixty plus partied till the wee hours.

I kept reading the paper.

Cutting closer to the chase. In Chicago in the late eighties, after a year in grad school that didn't pan out, (I couldn't write my essays, can you believe it? How things change...) I became involved in something called The Open University of the Left, where we discussed and debated theory and current events in a community leftist bookstore setting.

The organizer of that project was involved in getting the American Library Association to censure Israeli librarians because of the first intifada (youth uprising in the occupied territories against Israel). I subsequently "joined" the Palestine Solidarity Committee (PSC), a group of Americans (U.S.) calling for just treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. We were anglo, jew, palestinian (Muslim, Christian and Secular).

When I was further involved I learned that the Palestinians were mostly associated with the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (George Habash's militant leftist breakoff from the PLO/Fatah). The DFLP had highjacked planes in the seventies. They fought Jordan's army in the late seventies and were crushed. One of my friends was a combatant at 18 in that latter fight.

All of this was post-Lebanon invasion during the eighties. We all knew about Sabra and Chatilla. We also knew about Deir Yassin. The Munich Olympics were common knowledge. The wars of defense/agression ('48, '56, '67, '73 and others I've surely forgotten) were part of this background.

We argued inside of the PSC. We argued with pro-Israel Jews and non-Jews. We argued with Zionists.

One of the leaders of the Palestinian Arab community in Chicago. Founder of the Arab Community Center on the South Side, Samir Odeh, a lovely, funny and bright spirit, father, husband and great guy to hang out with, returned to east Jerusalem in the early nineties. He hadn't been able to go back for thirty years or so. He visited his family home in West Jerusalem that they had fled in '56 (I think, it may have been '48). After three days in Jerusalem he was dead of a heart attack. He left behind small children and a lovely, charismatic and amazingly strong wife in Chicago. Yes he was a tobacco smoker. But it was sorrow that killed him.

After Oslo the PSC devolved/dissolved. The prediction was that Oslo was a recipe for apartheid and open air prisons (not that those didn't already exist, but this was an exponential increase.) Those prediction have proven painfully true. This was before the containment wall, before Rachel Corrie, before the second intifada that started at Al Ahksa mosque (The Temple of the Mount, where Muhammed MPBUHN [just a gesture, I'm no longer a person of the book] was purported to have ascended to heaven. The third most sacred site in Islam. The reason the Muslims won the crusades.

This was before the recent second (?) invasion of Lebanon. Before Hamas (which was at first fostered and encouraged by Israel as a counter force to the PLO). This was before the Gulf War with Iraq/Saddam's Scud missile attacks on Israel.

I learned a lot in the late eighties to early nineties about specifics regarding the Palestinian/Israeli confict. I learned that there is a school of revisionist Israeli historians who have published books about the International Zionist Organizations collaboration with the Nazis to guarantee that any of the few Jews that escaped / were allowed out of Europe were headed for Palestine and nowhere else. At the expense of fewer getting out if they wanted to go elsewhere. A very black period in the pre-history of modern Israel.

These historians have documented what the Palestinians (Arab Christians and Muslims) call The Nahkba. The intentional campaign, through massacres, threats and intimidation both physical and psychological to get as many Arab Palestinians as possible to flea in '48. Both the Irgun and Hagannah carried out ethnic cleansing on a large scale.

I've heard the lies repeated over and over that it was an empty land, there were very few Palestinians there and they weren't using it as well as they should. In other words it was wasted on them. An argument that must seem very familiar to American Indians and other native peoples supplanted by outside invaders around the world.

Yes Jews have lived in Palestine and other parts of the middle east since at least the second diaspora in the third century AD. (I think, feel free to check. This is off the top of my head.) Basically when the Romans defeated the Maccabees and deported most surviving Jews as slaves.

But so have the people who are the ancestors of the Palestinian Arabs. Lived in Palestine that is.

But saying that the state of Israel has lost its right to exist doesn't work for me.

I long ago joined the call for two states in Palestine. Israel and an Arab Palestinian country with East Jerusalem as its capital and the right of return for all those expelled who wish to return. There must also be a corridor connecting the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. All Jewish settlements must be removed from those areas. Water, land and other resources must be returned and repaired.

But Israel should also continue and be safe for it's citizens, Jew or not.

Yes, people have been calling for this for decades. And it hasn't worked. But it is the only reasonable and just compromise.

The Electronic Intifada's Ali Abunimah's (?) call for a one state solution, with a secular democracy and majority rule, is a no go. Maybe in a hundred years after the two states have stabilized and learned to live as peaceful and cooperative neighbors. First things first.

Repeating the lie that Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel is to ignore the many concessions that Fatah made during and post Oslo.

Remember Ramallah, Bethlehem, and other West Bank towns demolished in the suppression of the Second Intifada.

Yes rockets and suicide bombers kill civilians indiscriminately. But many more Israeli bombs, tanks, snipers, infantrymen and jets have killed many, many more civilian Palestinian Arabs. Targeting teenagers throwing rocks, ambulances, schools, mosques, churchs, etc. Those are WAR CRIMES. Complete and total violations of the Geneva Convention.

No matter how much one may want to tout the danger of the Islamic Radical Terrorist boogeyman, and he/they are real, don't mistake me, will not justify the policies that Israel has carried out since 1948.

Kathryn, I apprecated your gratitude for my "OTHERWISE" quip to Edward. But saying you're non-partisan and then taking the position that the leaders and soldiers of Hamas, Palestinian Arabs, are murdering, slavering, unreasonable and crazed killers who leave Israel and the West with no choice but to crush them, well, it just doesn't wash. These two claims cannot be made by the same person at the same time. That's what I think the Palestinian sympathizers / critics of Israel on this thread have been trying to tell you for the past forty-eight hours.

When I went to anti-Israel (Policies and Actions!! Not the country as a whole.) demonstrations in Chicago in the nineties, and one a couple of years ago in The City (SF) I never joined in with chants of, "Down, down, Yisrael", which are popular among the Palestinian-American (U.S.) immigrant youth. But I still attended because we were responding to the latest excrescence by the government of Israel.

I also do not agree with the Zionist who, in the early eighties, told me at some anti-intervention in Central America rally at UC Irvine, that I shouldn't wear my kaffeya (See pretty much every photo of Yassir Arafat that exists, it's the checkered scarf) because that was the headdress of the first people to enslave Black Africans. Since probably the first people to do that were other Black Africans. Jews by the way practiced slavery and genocide from the beginning. Just read your Old Testament.

One of the most tragic things about this sixty year shitstorm, other than the horrendous violence and suffering, is that it is a family fight. They're all Semites. They're all "People of The Book". They've been neighbors for thousands of years for fuck's sake. Work it out!

I am not an anti-Semite. I am an anti-Zionist. I'm also opposed to any other group that uses their previous victimization to justify aggression, murder and conquest as a defensive action.

You come to my house, where my family has lived for generation upon generation. You kill some of my family. You drive the rest of us away. We fight back. You prevail. We're forced to live in the gutter for two to three generations while looking over the backyard alley fence at your fat life in our house. We lob rocks and pipe bombs at you. You drop 500 lb. bombs on us while snipers shoot our kids in the face when they gather and some throw rocks at your guards. We are starving and are squeezed more and more, day by day. You ignore every legal order to compensate us, some of those legal orders are eviction notices for you. We have won in the court of world opinion, with the exception of your giant sugar daddy from over the waves. Can you blame us for being really, really pissed the longer this goes on and the worse it gets?

Don't answer. In the case of many, the answer is yes, we are the ones at fault for being crazed, miserable, desperate and tenaciously stubborn. We're the bad guys, you're the good guys.

Bully logic, "I did it because that wimp was a threat and I had to crush him. The fact that I celebrate it is just human nature. He did it to himself." (Older brother to younger brother, forcing younger brother's hand to slap younger brother's face, "Why are you hitting yourself? Huh? Why? Why? Why?")

I heard from my ex-girlfriend friend in the mid-nineties that many if not most Israeli backpacker travelers in India, Nepal, Tibet and China were notorious for their obnoxious and overbearing behavior. Browbeating, insulting and just plain terrorizing with shouts and gestures the guides and service workers on the expat cheap travel road. She told stories of Israeli men demanding that their guides carry their backpacks for them. No one else was doing this.

These are the twenty somethings just out of their two years of military service and taking a year off before going home to finish college. They travel cheap because they're not wealthy. (Just like I have done.)

I doubted her. I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt. They're westernized, sophisticated, modern, cosmopolitan. Right?

Then I spent an afternoon, evening and early morning with an Israeli dude that I met on the train to Kunming, in Kunming and Old Dali. I couldn't believe his behavior towards the motor-tricycle driver when we were rushing to get back to the bus station. Same again with the taxi driver in the early a.m. from the bus station in New Dali to Old Dali.

I imagined overseers on ante-bellum Southern plantations acted much the same way towards slaves. With the exception being that this guy wasn't using a whip or a club. He was very efficient at just shouting insults and threats without having to resort to physical violence. It was really, truly nauseating.

OK, one guy, not a whole people. Not a good representative sample. But the behavior is widely reported and acknowledged. I was lucky enough only to experience it once, and made sure not to put myself in a similar position again. I had that luxury. The Palestinians do not.

He learned that behavior at home.

And he was a really nice guy when we were drinking beer, sharing food, chatting, singing and generally partying on the two day train trip just before that horrible afternoon and following morning.


Just like my friends Waleed, Samir, Mary and others in Chicago during the PSC days.

Some of the most fun I've ever had was at Waleed's community wedding, singing in Arabic with the guys towards the end of the reception. (Which I know maybe six words of. For all I know I was singing the praises of Yassir Arafat, but with that particular crowd, I doubt it! I was just joining in on the chorus by repeating what I heard. I'm sure my pronunciation sucked.)

Like I've said, they're each others brothers and sisters, and we're theirs'.

Time for a major family intervention, followed by years of supportive professional counseling.

Demonizing the Other won't cut it any more. It never did.

Are you up for leading those therapy sessions Kathryn?

Peace, Salaam, Shalom,

Shukran

"Mad" Miles

:burngrnbounce:

[JandA]

Well said Miles, and all without acrimony and personal attacks. I may not agree with your point of view but I certainly find validity in your point of view. Thank you for trying to raise the level of discourse.

Jeff

[babaruss]

Demonizing the Other won't cut it any more. It never did.

Are you up for leading those therapy sessions Kathryn?

Peace, Salaam, Shalom,

Shukran

"Mad" Miles

:burngrnbounce:[/quote]

What an absolutely wonderful rant Miles.
I learned more about you in the one post than I thought possible.
You sure as hell have a way of laying it all out there in way that cuts through the crap.
Hitting a gratitude button in response to such a work of art would
be insulting if not criminal.
Russ

[Valley Oak]

Blub-blub, blub-blub.

[elienos]

The Birth Pangs of a New Palestine/Middle East.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7928

...if you are interested in the big picture of what is going on TODAY

[Valley Oak]

The list of derogatory terms and ad homonym attacks used against people who DARE criticize Israeli foreign policy at all, now includes: "Über-lefties."

The word, 'Über,' comes from German, meaning 'super.' This is an obvious reference to the Nazism in German history while at the same time being a swipe against other groups of people. The clear implication here is that anyone who criticizes Israel (no matter how ugly its actions are) is a Nazi, anti-Semite, a 'Communist,' an extremist, or some other vile thing.

ANYONE who criticizes Israel, for anything at all, must and will be vilified. This is a crusade with zero tolerance.

Edward

[MsTerry]

.
The German word Uber litterally means Over or Above as opposed to Unter (under).
The reference is to Mein Kampf's use of Ubermensch und Untermensch. The jews being the Untermensch.
more here
Ãœbermensch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubermensch)


"

The word, 'Über,' comes from German, meaning 'super.' This is an obvious reference to the Nazism in German history while at the same time being a swipe against other groups of people.

Edward

[Valley Oak]

The labeling of any kind of criticism of Israeli foreign policy as anti-Semitism is a position encouraged by hate groups such as the 'Jewish Defense League,' Jewish Defense League - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League). The Jewish Defense League has been identified as a hate group by the 'Anti Defamation League' (Jewish Extremist Sentenced in California Bomb Plot (https://www.adl.org/learn/extremism_in_the_news/Other_Extremism/krugel_sentenced_92605.htm?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_the_News)) and the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLCenter.org: Hate Groups Map (https://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/type.jsp?DT=24)). Jewish Defense League members have been convicted of terrorist acts such as bombings. One member received a 20 year sentence.

It is very disheartening for me to see the same kind of vitriolic stance taken by the JDL right here on the 'liberal/progressive' Wacco list. I thought that somehow we were perfect in this community and that absolutely no one in Sonoma County was guilty of any kind of racism or discrimination or bigotry.

Now I know better.

Edward

[babaruss]

Edward I truly hope your comment was 'tongue and cheek'.
Most communities hold dissenting views, disagreements, angry takes
etc. on all manner of conditions human.
What makes it a community is the willingness to allow people
to be who they are, think as they do, and grow together.
Another important aspect of community is not personalizes
someones take on things regardless of how different it is from yours.
The trick with having a lot of differences is that we can all use
those differences to remind ourselves what the real world is like.
Often I find myself getting all fired up by a comment that to me is absurd
and then I find myself in personal battle (with myself) to not fire back at that persons (to me) unacceptable point of view.
What the hell...given that persons life experiences he or she is probably offering the best possible information, feelings etc.
Granted it may appear from your stand point that they are rabid, insane,
or at best have a limited understanding of the subject at hand.
Where some can shed some light on a given subject behavior, or attitude, others open fire..
Light not heat....same source but for me it's the preferred application.
Easy to say difficult to do.
Russ



..............It is very disheartening for me to see the same kind of vitriolic stance taken by the JDL right here on the 'liberal/progressive' Wacco list. I thought that somehow we were perfect in this community and that absolutely no one in Sonoma County was guilty of any kind of racism or discrimination or bigotry.
Now I know better. .Edward

[Zeno Swijtink]

The labeling of any kind of criticism of Israeli foreign policy as anti-Semitism is a position encouraged by hate groups such as the 'Jewish Defense League,' Jewish Defense League - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League). The Jewish Defense League has been identified as a hate group by the 'Anti Defamation League' (Jewish Extremist Sentenced in California Bomb Plot (https://www.adl.org/learn/extremism_in_the_news/Other_Extremism/krugel_sentenced_92605.htm?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_the_News)) and the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLCenter.org: Hate Groups Map (https://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/type.jsp?DT=24)). Jewish Defense League members have been convicted of terrorist acts such as bombings. One member received a 20 year sentence.

It is very disheartening for me to see the same kind of vitriolic stance taken by the JDL right here on the 'liberal/progressive' Wacco list. I thought that somehow we were perfect in this community and that absolutely no one in Sonoma County was guilty of any kind of racism or discrimination or bigotry.

Now I know better.

Edward

It may be a broader phenomenon. John Derbyshire wrote on jewry.com:


I have somewhere formulated Derbyshire’s Law, which asserts that: “ANYTHING WHATSOEVER said by a Gentile about Jews will be perceived as antisemitic by someone, somewhere.” I have experienced the truth of this many times. Further, I have the awful example of William Cash before me. Cash wrote an article titled “Kings of the Deal” for The Spectator back in 1994, pointing out, in a perfectly inoffensive way (and, of course, quite truly) that lots of Hollywood movers and shakers are Jewish. You can google the consequences.

Why is Derbyshire’s Law true? I am not sure. It seems to me that Jews have a very strong preference that their Jewishness not be noticed. They want to “pass” as much as possible.

I remember thinking how strange it was, in that special issue of The New Republic devoted to The Bell Curve, that Leon Wieseltier should declare himself “repulsed” at the suggestion, by Charles Murray and Richard J. Herrnstein, that Jews have higher intelligence than Gentiles.

“What an odd thing to say!” I thought to myself. “Why, if someone were to say that my common-ancestry group was smarter than others, I’d be proud!” But that was a very Jewish reaction on Wieseltier’s part. It’s not hard to see why this should be so, historically. Remember all those Jewish jokes with the punch line: “How many times do I have to tell you, Sammy—don’t make trouble!” I am sure Kevin MacDonald has an explanation for it somewhere, though I can’t recall a specific passage. Wrestling with Derbyshire's Law | Jewcy.com (https://www.jewcy.com/dialogue/02-27/wrestling_with_derbyshires_law)

[Valley Oak]

There is yet a new term of slander against anyone who dares criticize Israeli foreign policy. This new update brings us: 'lefty fascists.' You can see this new expression of gross intolerance and bigotry abundantly strewn about on the Wacco list.

Edward

[theindependenteye]

Responding to this issue that's in the title of this thread with some miscellaneous thoughts, not in any coherent order:

1. That's absurd on the face of it. No country, race, or individual should be immune to criticism on the basis of their actions. Being a member of an historically persecuted minority — be it Jewish, Irish, African, Gay, whatever — doesn't automatically imbue you with virtue. Hitler built his power on the concept of Germans as innocent victims.

2. An argument analogous to "America: Love It or Leave It" — loving it being equated to going along unquestioningly to whatever the Government proposes doing, especially if it involves blowing people up without raising your taxes. To me, patriotism means "eternal vigilance," and being loud-mouthed when you see your country violating its own ideals.

3. There are indeed critics of Israel who believe it should not exist. There are others who feel it should exist as a nation but not as an explicitly Jewish state, i.e. to allow full right of return to Palestinians which would essentially render it, as it was under the Mandate, a state with a Jewish minority. There are others (myself being one) who feel — whatever the pros or cons of historical Zionism — that it's there, it's a Jewish state, it's a major power, and it's on a path that will lead either to its own inner transformation into monstrosity or to major holocaust. With that prospect, I think criticism is an act of caring, not of attack.

4. Of course the reactions to criticism are generally negative. A bear surrounded by snarlng dogs won't take kindly to shouts of "Bad bear! Bad bear!" I believe Israel is beset by serious internal strife that complicates enormously their political will. Can they ever deal with their fundamentalists who would stake a claim to the outermost boundaries of Biblical Israel? Can they find an enemy to negotiate with while simultaneously assassinating their enemies? Can they break the bonds of economic & military urges that have their own unstoppable logic? Can they risk uprooting the settlements? Will it just feel safer & more necessary to reinforce police-state conditions, for all eternity? Can the Palestinians be crushed to the point of non-resistence (shades of the Warsaw Ghetto!) or, more likely, simply become more determined, more desperate, until someone sets off a dirty bomb into Tel Aviv, Israel counters with nukes to Iran, and the whole world goes up?

I see Israel's government taking things from bad to worse. But I'm deeply thankful that I'm not the Israeli prime minister. If he's not to be torn apart by the snarling dogs, his own bears will get him.

Peace & joy—
Conrad

[babaruss]

Thank you Conrad for returning this thread back to a discussion.
You've made some really good points.
Finding answers for Israel's current dilemma, rather than just choosing sides, or spewing hatred, is clearly what is needed both on this forum, and in the world.

Being a somewhat butt head liberal I tend to automatically root for the underdog. Going back over my life I can see where Jews got my bleeding heart support more often than other people.
I'm completely chagrined to find myself tossing shoes at the Israelis today.
Having said that I'm also attempting to see both sides of the issue.
Only idiots hold to there can only be one 'good' side of a dispute and the other side is automatically 'bad'
I want to see how Obama will respond to all of this 'stuff'.
Seeing Rahm Emanuel as Obama's right hand man makes me squirm in agonizing discomfort. but at the same time I am forcing myself to 'wait and see' what really is coming, rather than projecting my fears on someone (President Obama) who may damned well know what he is about (about as in finding positive resolution for this particular mess).
Russ



Responding to this issue that's in the title of this thread with some miscellaneous thoughts, not in any coherent order:

1. That's absurd on the face of it. No country, race, or individual should be immune to criticism on the basis of their actions. Being a member of an historically persecuted minority — be it Jewish, Irish, African, Gay, whatever — doesn't automatically imbue you with virtue. Hitler built his power on the concept of Germans as innocent victims.

2. An argument analogous to "America: Love It or Leave It" — loving it being equated to going along unquestioningly to whatever the Government proposes doing, especially if it involves blowing people up without raising your taxes. To me, patriotism means "eternal vigilance," and being loud-mouthed when you see your country violating its own ideals.

3. There are indeed critics of Israel who believe it should not exist. There are others who feel it should exist as a nation but not as an explicitly Jewish state, i.e. to allow full right of return to Palestinians which would essentially render it, as it was under the Mandate, a state with a Jewish minority. There are others (myself being one) who feel — whatever the pros or cons of historical Zionism — that it's there, it's a Jewish state, it's a major power, and it's on a path that will lead either to its own inner transformation into monstrosity or to major holocaust. With that prospect, I think criticism is an act of caring, not of attack.

4. Of course the reactions to criticism are generally negative. A bear surrounded by snarlng dogs won't take kindly to shouts of "Bad bear! Bad bear!" I believe Israel is beset by serious internal strife that complicates enormously their political will. Can they ever deal with their fundamentalists who would stake a claim to the outermost boundaries of Biblical Israel? Can they find an enemy to negotiate with while simultaneously assassinating their enemies? Can they break the bonds of economic & military urges that have their own unstoppable logic? Can they risk uprooting the settlements? Will it just feel safer & more necessary to reinforce police-state conditions, for all eternity? Can the Palestinians be crushed to the point of non-resistence (shades of the Warsaw Ghetto!) or, more likely, simply become more determined, more desperate, until someone sets off a dirty bomb into Tel Aviv, Israel counters with nukes to Iran, and the whole world goes up?

I see Israel's government taking things from bad to worse. But I'm deeply thankful that I'm not the Israeli prime minister. If he's not to be torn apart by the snarling dogs, his own bears will get him.

Peace & joy—
Conrad

[Valley Oak]

Latest update on slanderous, name-calling defamations against people who criticize Israeli foreign policy:
'Uber-Lefty-Fascists.'

It's OK to criticize Russian, U.S., Chinese, British, French, Indian, Japanese, or any country's foreign policies. But Israel is exempt! (for some reason I don't know why). Therefore, if you violate this exemption, you MUST be an anti-Semite. See how simple and illogical this 'reasoning' is?

Edward

[elienos]

it doesn't matter which side is on the right side (not that there are only two sides anyway), the horror and death that just happened in Gaza is one of the most disgusting acts of our day (Some of the accounts in the Congo make me cringe in about the same manner). What the state of Israel just did is disgusting and vile and it has nothing to do with anti-semitism nor zionism but idiocy and control. How are these children, so many who have seen loved ones demolished, going to not hate Israel? Israel needs to invest in a lot of psyco-therapists if they hope that this offensive isn't going to escalate. I am glad that the UN is planning on trying some of these folks for war crimes.

[Valley Oak]

It was 'tongue in cheek' (it is the word 'in,' not 'and' in between. It took me a few years to learn this). I agree with you, Russ.

When a person is facetious about what they are saying, it is often an effective tool of commentary or rhetoric. Kind of like when Socrates would use humor to point out an observation by underlining its opposite. For example, if someone is piling a ton of food on their plate and then someone states: 'My goodness, I fear the man is going to starve to death if he doesn't eat heartier meals!'

Edward


Edward I truly hope your comment was 'tongue and cheek'.
Most communities hold dissenting views, disagreements, angry takes
etc. on all manner of conditions human.
What makes it a community is the willingness to allow people
to be who they are, think as they do, and grow together.
Another important aspect of community is not personalizes
someones take on things regardless of how different it is from yours.
The trick with having a lot of differences is that we can all use
those differences to remind ourselves what the real world is like.
Often I find myself getting all fired up by a comment that to me is absurd
and then I find myself in personal battle (with myself) to not fire back at that persons (to me) unacceptable point of view.
What the hell...given that persons life experiences he or she is probably offering the best possible information, feelings etc.
Granted it may appear from your stand point that they are rabid, insane,
or at best have a limited understanding of the subject at hand.
Where some can shed some light on a given subject behavior, or attitude, others open fire..
Light not heat....same source but for me it's the preferred application.
Easy to say difficult to do.
Russ

[Yubajeff]

This entire thread is surreal, absurd, and its very existence is just a distraction from pursuit of truth. Have any of you been to Israel? Israeli's themselves don't need your criticism, regardless of your stance. They are their own fiercest critics, continually debating these same positions heatedly among themselves, with both sides well represented. If Israelis weren't like this, they would have wiped out their enemies ages ago, like any self-respecting democracy. Do you think the US or Russian would stand for Mexico or China bombing their schoolchildren on a daily basis? Get real. Go debate US troops in Pakistan or Iraq, and not this dribble. I hope I have offended your delicate sensibilities; you are in bad need of it. Don't flame me. I intend not to participate in this debate or any other politics, except maybe African, which I find a little more interesting and important. That might be a worthwhile thread.
Scout

[MsTerry]

Israeli's themselves don't need your criticism, regardless of your stance.
Scout
They sure need our tax money, our weapons, our intelligence and most of all our VETO in the UN.



If Israelis weren't like this, they would have wiped out their enemies ages ago, like any self-respecting democracyIsrael doesn't want a democracy that includes everyone living in Palestine.


Do you think the US or Russian would stand for Mexico or China bombing their schoolchildren on a daily basis?Apparently you feel that Palestinians should sit by the rubble and watch their children die from the Israeli bombings.

I hope I have offended your delicate sensibilities; you are in bad need of it. Not at all, your incoherent insensitivity comes across as a juvenile joke.

Don't flame me.Nobody is interested.


I intend not to participate in this debate or any other politics, except maybe African, which I find a little more interesting and important. That might be a worthwhile thread.And what are you going to call this thread that you want to start?

[babaruss]

Yesu ben Yusef aka Jesus the Christ was reported to have said : "You are like children playing in the strets....crying; I have piped for you and you did not dance...I have mourned for you and you did not weep".
War and slaughter are not are not child's games dear angry Jeff.
People have many and varied responses to the horrors of such brutality.
All manner of stuff is expected to be thrown into the mix (where discussion is involved). Many among us will neither be bright enough, nor emotionally mature enough to express what we feel in a way acceptable to others among us. It will, our opinion, our grief, our fears, (for many of us) come out raw, ugly, toxic.
This may be where the calmer, brighter, more focused minds on this forum come into play.
They have rescued my sorry ass several times already on this and other threads.
I struggle to control my feelings and try to think things through clearly...but it isn't always going to happen. Old joke..."a sick mind alone is in bad company".....I need others input whether I agree with it or not.
I need to hear the rabid, the pouty, the frustrated, approaches to the things which are being discussed here too... in order to get a feel of who this community is, how we all think. This community represents a considerable cross section of beliefs.
I'd rather see, and hear things which apall me rather than keep my head in the sand (or up my ass if you prefer).
Learning is painful...letting go of cherished ideas is painful.
Being open to hearing what others think may also hurt, or anger me...so be it.
Growing in understanding always has a price.
Some days I pay it grudgingly...sometimes willingly....but to not pay it is to die be that a spiritual or a intellectual death. The latter may have already happened but it doesn't stop me from trying to ressurect it here !!
Russ



I intend not to participate in this debate or any other politics, except maybe African, which I find a little more interesting and important. That might be a worthwhile thread.
Scout

[Valley Oak]

Gestalt psychologist, Fritz Perls, said: 'To die and be reborn is not easy.'

Dr. Perls was of Jewish descent, by the way.

Thank you for your post, Russ!

Edward



Yesu ben Yusef aka Jesus the Christ was reported to have said : "You are like children playing in the strets....crying; I have piped for you and you did not dance...I have mourned for you and you did not weep".
War and slaughter are not are not child's games dear angry Jeff.
People have many and varied responses to the horrors of such brutality.
All manner of stuff is expected to be thrown into the mix (where discussion is involved). Many among us will neither be bright enough, nor emotionally mature enough to express what we feel in a way acceptable to others among us. It will, our opinion, our grief, our fears, (for many of us) come out raw, ugly, toxic.
This may be where the calmer, brighter, more focused minds on this forum come into play.
They have rescued my sorry ass several times already on this and other threads.
I struggle to control my feelings and try to think things through clearly...but it isn't always going to happen. Old joke..."a sick mind alone is in bad company".....I need others input whether I agree with it or not.
I need to hear the rabid, the pouty, the frustrated, approaches to the things which are being discussed here too... in order to get a feel of who this community is, how we all think. This community represents a considerable cross section of beliefs.
I'd rather see, and hear things which apall me rather than keep my head in the sand (or up my ass if you prefer).
Learning is painful...letting go of cherished ideas is painful.
Being open to hearing what others think may also hurt, or anger me...so be it.
Growing in understanding always has a price.
Some days I pay it grudgingly...sometimes willingly....but to not pay it is to die be that a spiritual or a intellectual death. The latter may have already happened but it doesn't stop me from trying to ressurect it here !!
Russ