What You Don’t Know About Gaza [Archive]

Zeno Swijtink

01-09-2009, 08:19 PM

https://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/01/08/opinion/08oped.500.jpg

January 8, 2009
OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
What You Don’t Know About Gaza (https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/opinion/08khalidi.html)
New York Times
By RASHID KHALIDI

NEARLY everything you’ve been led to believe about Gaza is wrong. Below are a few essential points that seem to be missing from the conversation, much of which has taken place in the press, about Israel’s attack on the Gaza Strip.

THE GAZANS Most of the people living in Gaza are not there by choice. The majority of the 1.5 million people crammed into the roughly 140 square miles of the Gaza Strip belong to families that came from towns and villages outside Gaza like Ashkelon and Beersheba. They were driven to Gaza by the Israeli Army in 1948.

THE OCCUPATION The Gazans have lived under Israeli occupation since the Six-Day War in 1967. Israel is still widely considered to be an occupying power, even though it removed its troops and settlers from the strip in 2005. Israel still controls access to the area, imports and exports, and the movement of people in and out. Israel has control over Gaza’s air space and sea coast, and its forces enter the area at will. As the occupying power, Israel has the responsibility under the Fourth Geneva Convention to see to the welfare of the civilian population of the Gaza Strip.

THE BLOCKADE Israel’s blockade of the strip, with the support of the United States and the European Union, has grown increasingly stringent since Hamas won the Palestinian Legislative Council elections in January 2006. Fuel, electricity, imports, exports and the movement of people in and out of the Strip have been slowly choked off, leading to life-threatening problems of sanitation, health, water supply and transportation.

The blockade has subjected many to unemployment, penury and malnutrition. This amounts to the collective punishment — with the tacit support of the United States — of a civilian population for exercising its democratic rights.

THE CEASE-FIRE Lifting the blockade, along with a cessation of rocket fire, was one of the key terms of the June cease-fire between Israel and Hamas. This accord led to a reduction in rockets fired from Gaza from hundreds in May and June to a total of less than 20 in the subsequent four months (according to Israeli government figures). The cease-fire broke down when Israeli forces launched major air and ground attacks in early November; six Hamas operatives were reported killed.

WAR CRIMES The targeting of civilians, whether by Hamas or by Israel, is potentially a war crime. Every human life is precious. But the numbers speak for themselves: Nearly 700 Palestinians, most of them civilians, have been killed since the conflict broke out at the end of last year. In contrast, there have been around a dozen Israelis killed, many of them soldiers. Negotiation is a much more effective way to deal with rockets and other forms of violence. This might have been able to happen had Israel fulfilled the terms of the June cease-fire and lifted its blockade of the Gaza Strip.

This war on the people of Gaza isn’t really about rockets. Nor is it about “restoring Israel’s deterrence,” as the Israeli press might have you believe. Far more revealing are the words of Moshe Yaalon, then the Israeli Defense Forces chief of staff, in 2002: “The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.”

Rashid Khalidi, a professor of Arab studies at Columbia, is the author of the forthcoming “Sowing Crisis: The Cold War and American Dominance in the Middle East."

toddwquigley

01-10-2009, 02:14 PM

https://www.onenewsnow.com/uploadedImages/Media/Images/hamas_supporter.jpgA former Palestinian terrorist says the West continues to pursue a failed idea that somehow terrorism against Israel will stop when the Palestinians get their own homeland.</STORYLEAD>

<STORYBODY>Walid Shoebat is a former member of the Palestine Liberation Organization and a convert to Christianity. He now runs the Walid Shoebat Foundation (https://www.shoebat.com/), which is an organization that cries out for the justice of Israel and the Jewish people. Shoebat, author of the recently published God's War on Terror: Islam, Prophecy and the Bible, believes the recent terrorist rocket attacks by Hamas have nothing to do with wanting a Palestinian homeland.

"The core issue is not an issue of land whatsoever. It's an issue of wiping the state of Israel out. If you look at even suicide bombing -- historically, if you look from 1980 until 2003, let's say -- 224 suicide bombings out of 300 existed in Islamic countries with no occupation whatsoever," he notes. "So it's not simply the desire to create a Palestinian state. It is the desire to destroy the Jewish state, and that's what we see."

https://www.onenewsnow.com/uploadedImages/Media/Images/20070117WalidShoebat.jpgShoebat contends this effort is being carried out by a huge network of Islamic enemies. "It's a rebel network involved between Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran, Syria. Many Islamic countries are involved in this," he points out. "Saudi Arabia was funding...this kind of thing. So it's a huge network that we're dealing with."

elienos

01-19-2009, 02:19 PM

I listened to a Palestinian woman the other day talking about how the two-state solution will never work. They only ways she thinks it will work is that all share the land. Like they used to before Israel said they were the owners.

Anyway, any two state solution will be Israel "giving" what small part of the land it wants to the Palestinians. That will never work.

"Choose your enemy carefully, because you will become like your enemy." -arab proverb

https://www.onenewsnow.com/uploadedImages/Media/Images/hamas_supporter.jpgA former Palestinian terrorist says the West continues to pursue a failed idea that somehow terrorism against Israel will stop when the Palestinians get their own homeland.</STORYLEAD>

<STORYBODY>Walid Shoebat is a former member of the Palestine Liberation Organization and a convert to Christianity. He now runs the Walid Shoebat Foundation (https://www.shoebat.com/), which is an organization that cries out for the justice of Israel and the Jewish people. Shoebat, author of the recently published God's War on Terror: Islam, Prophecy and the Bible, believes the recent terrorist rocket attacks by Hamas have nothing to do with wanting a Palestinian homeland.

"The core issue is not an issue of land whatsoever. It's an issue of wiping the state of Israel out. If you look at even suicide bombing -- historically, if you look from 1980 until 2003, let's say -- 224 suicide bombings out of 300 existed in Islamic countries with no occupation whatsoever," he notes. "So it's not simply the desire to create a Palestinian state. It is the desire to destroy the Jewish state, and that's what we see."

https://www.onenewsnow.com/uploadedImages/Media/Images/20070117WalidShoebat.jpgShoebat contends this effort is being carried out by a huge network of Islamic enemies. "It's a rebel network involved between Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran, Syria. Many Islamic countries are involved in this," he points out. "Saudi Arabia was funding...this kind of thing. So it's a huge network that we're dealing with."

artfulme

01-19-2009, 10:38 PM

Isn't it about time that people--especially lefties--understand this.

By joining the Hamas apologists who seek nothing less than the elimination of Israel and its people AND Jews everywhere, the lefties have attaqched themselves to the most racist group on the planet...continuing the resolution of the "Jewish problem" that inspired the slaughter/ death and torture of more than 30,000,000 Jews because they were Jews and would not convert.

To watch the lefties attach themselves to such intentions is a travesty...a shame...added to not a little anti-semitism.

Dynamique

01-19-2009, 11:45 PM

That's interesting to hear a different perspective.

This Palestinian lady did seem to gloss over something important: when the Palestinians and Israelites were "sharing" the land it was under the rule of the British, and they were both on equal (subjugated) footing. There were also far fewer Israelites/Jews living there at the time.

There's no easy answer on this one, is there!

I listened to a Palestinian woman the other day talking about how the two-state solution will never work. They only ways she thinks it will work is that all share the land. Like they used to before Israel said they were the owners.

Anyway, any two state solution will be Israel "giving" what small part of the land it wants to the Palestinians. That will never work.

"Choose your enemy carefully, because you will become like your enemy." -arab proverb

toddwquigley

01-20-2009, 12:48 AM

Isn't it about time that people--especially lefties--understand this.

By joining the Hamas apologists who seek nothing less than the elimination of Israel and its people AND Jews everywhere, the lefties have attaqched themselves to the most racist group on the planet...continuing the resolution of the "Jewish problem" that inspired the slaughter/ death and torture of more than 30,000,000 Jews because they were Jews and would not convert.

To watch the lefties attach themselves to such intentions is a travesty...a shame...added to not a little anti-semitism.

This is what I have been saying here on Wacco, and everytime I say it, they come up with arguements that are not based on any facts, just emotions.

If you listen to the lefties, it's all Israel's fault, and they should just let Hamas shoot missiles at their civilians, and not do a thing about it.

It blows my mind what complete and utter nonsense and anti-semitism I see touted, there's not a shred of logic behind what they use as arguements, it's all based upon emotions. The lefties are more angry, emotional and further from reality than the righties. The hypocracy and sheer fantasy that comes out of the lefties is just mind boggling.

I can only guess that they hate America so much, that they automatically hate Israel because they are our friend. I see more hate, anger, and downright meanness coming from the lefties whenever somebody questions or does not support their fantasies. They should really stop using the word liberal to describe themselves, because they don't give anybody the liberty of a thought that doesn't agree with their's. The more facts you use to support your thesis, the more emotional and angrier they get. It's a rage against reality that makes one ponder their mental health.

This fascination with the Palestinians and hating of the Jews defies all logic and common sense, and regardless of what they try to hide it in, it is just straight up anti-semitism. I have even had a Jew tell me that Israel is the evil one, and that it's all their fault.

I have spent considerable time traveling in the Levant, and I have seen first hand the attacks on Jewish civilians. I have talked to the Arab peoples of the countries that border Israel, that have lived with the Palestinians all their life, and the continuous war of terror that the Palestinians have perpretrated against the Israeli civilian population for the last 50+ years, has made them unwelcome everywhere in the Levant EXCEPT Israel.

Let's set the record straight: Israel existed for 2,000 years before the Diaspora, and many Jews have been living there for the 2,000 years since. Modern Israel as a nation was for the most part bought from the people who were living there. When the Jews bought back their land, they evicted the people who were squatting on their land.

Here's the Wikipedia short version:

Israel (Hebrew (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): יִשְׂרָאֵל‎, Yisra'el; Arabic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): <BIG>ُإِسْرَائِيل</BIG>‎, Isrā'īl) officially the State of Israel (Hebrew (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Loudspeaker.svg/11px-Loudspeaker.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:He-Medinat_Israel.ogg) מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל‎ (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/He-Medinat_Israel.ogg) <SMALL class="metadata audiolinkinfo">(help (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Media_help)·info (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:He-Medinat_Israel.ogg))</SMALL>, Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): دَوْلَةُ إِسْرَائِيلَ‎, Dawlat Isrā'īl), is a country (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country) in Western Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Asia) located on the eastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Sea). It borders Lebanon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon) in the north, Syria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria) in the northeast, Jordan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan) in the east, and Egypt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) on the southwest, and contains geographically diverse features within its relatively small area.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-4>[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-4)</SUP> The West Bank (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank) and Gaza Strip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip) are also adjacent. With a population of about 7.28 million,<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-cbs0709_2-1>[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-cbs0709-2)</SUP> the majority of whom are Jews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew), Israel is the world's only Jewish state (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeland_for_the_Jewish_people).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-5>[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-5)</SUP> It is also home to other ethnic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic) groups, including most numerously Arab citizens of Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel), as well as many religious groups including Muslims (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim), Christians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians), Druze (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze), Samaritans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan) and others.
The modern state of Israel has its roots in the Land of Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel) (Eretz Yisrael), a concept central to Judaism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism) since ancient times,<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-britannnicajudaism_6-0>[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-britannnicajudaism-6)</SUP> and the heartland of the ancient Kingdom of Judah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judah) to which modern Jews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews) are usually attributed. After World War I (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I), the League of Nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations) approved the British Mandate of Palestine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine) with the intent of creating a "national home for the Jewish people."<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-7>[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-7)</SUP> In 1947, the United Nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations) approved the partition of Palestine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_Palestine) into two states, one Jewish and one Arab (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-8>[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-8)</SUP> On May 14, 1948 the state of Israel declared independence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_(Israel)) and this was followed by a war with the surrounding Arab states, which refused to accept the plan. The Israelis were subsequently victorious (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War) in a series of wars confirming their independence and expanding the borders of the Jewish state beyond those in the UN Partition Plan. Since then, Israel has been in conflict (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_conflict) with many of the neighboring Arab countries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League_and_the_Arab-Israeli_conflict), resulting in several major wars and decades of violence that continue to this day.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-9>[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-9)</SUP> Since its foundation, Israel's boundaries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_Israel) and the State's right to exist have been subject to dispute, especially among its Arab neighbors and their many Palestinian refugees. Israel has signed peace treaties with Egypt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Egypt_Peace_Treaty) and Jordan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Jordan_Treaty_of_Peace), though efforts for a long-lasting peace with the Palestinians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_process_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict)
have so far been unsuccessful.

After 1945 the United Kingdom became embroiled in an increasingly violent conflict with the Jews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Conflict_with_Zionism).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-48>[49] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-48)</SUP> In 1947, the British government withdrew from commitment to the Mandate of Palestine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine), stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-49>[50] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-49)</SUP> The newly created United Nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations) approved the UN Partition Plan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Partition_Plan) (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181) on November 29, 1947, dividing the country into two states, one Arab and one Jewish. Jerusalem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem) was to be designated an international city – a corpus separatum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_separatum) – administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-50>[51] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-50)</SUP> The Jewish community (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yishuv) accepted the plan,<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-51>[52] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-51)</SUP> but the Arab League (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League) and Arab Higher Committee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Higher_Committee) rejected it.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-52>[53] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-52)</SUP> On December 1, 1947 the Arab Higher Committee proclaimed a 3-day strike, and Arab bands began attacking Jewish targets. Civil war began with the Jews initially on the defensive but gradually moving into offence. The Palestinian-Arab economy collapsed and 250,000 Palestinian-Arabs fled or were expelled.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-53>[54] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-53)</SUP>
On May 14, 1948, the day before the end of the British Mandate, the Jewish Agency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Agency) proclaimed independence, naming the country Israel. The following day five Arab countries – Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq –invaded Israel, launching the 1948 Arab-Israeli War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-npr_54-0>[55] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-npr-54)</SUP> Morocco, Sudan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia also sent troops to assist the invaders. After a year of fighting, a ceasefire was declared (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Armistice_Agreements) and temporary borders, known as the Green Line (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Line_(Israel)), were established. Jordan annexed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_the_West_Bank_and_East_Jerusalem_by_Jordan) what became known as the West Bank (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank) and East Jerusalem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem), and Egypt took control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Gaza_Strip_by_Egypt) of the Gaza Strip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip). Israel was admitted as a member of the United Nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations) on May 11, 1949.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-55>[56] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-55)</SUP> During the conflict 711,000 Arabs, according to UN estimates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimates_of_the_Palestinian_Refugee_flight_of_1948), or about 80% of the previous Arab population, fled the country (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-un_56-0>[57] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-un-56)</SUP> The fate of the Palestinian refugees (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee) today is a major point of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-57>[ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-57)</SUP>

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/West_Bank_%26_Gaza_Map_2007_%28Settlements%29.gif (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/West_Bank_%26_Gaza_Map_2007_%28Settlements%29.gif)

Funny how when you look at this map, a large portion of the lands mandated by the UN, now have Palestinians living there...

Since 1948 Israel has tried to accomodate these stateless people whom nobody else will take, and what thanks do they get for their efforts? Terrorism against their civilians.

Somehow the lefties think this is perfectly justified. It seems that they live in an alternate reality to the vast majority of the World, where things are, because you wish them to be, where black is white, left is right, forward is reverse, and it's all the Jew's fault.

This is the same kind of thinking that led to the Eastern European Pogroms and the Holocaust.

Well I'm calling it what it is: Anti-Semitism, make up all your excuses, but the facts stand.

By taking the side of the Palestinians in this matter, the lefties are siding with Hamas, an anti-semite organization who's ultimate goal is the extinction of the Jewish race.

As such, they also are anti-semite.

sambacat

01-21-2009, 12:54 AM

I am so sick and tired of the pathetic, old name calling by the "zionistas" calling the "lefties" who object to Israel's policy of genocide against the Palestinians "anti-semites". Oh well, I suppose they have no rational defense to the shooting of school children, bulldozing of orchards, building a wall to imprison the population, destroying homes and stealing the land, blockading gas, electricity, water, medical and other life essentials, using WMDs provided by the U.S. and chemical warfare to murder 100s of civilians, mostly children, etc. etc. etc.
FYI, being anti-terrorist, anti-genocide, is not actually being anti-semitic, unless, of course, you assert that all Jews are in favor of the zinoistas' policy, which, I assure you, they are NOT.

elienos

01-21-2009, 06:42 AM

For one, I ain't no lefty and for two, calling folks who support palestine "anti-semitic" is silly, since plenty of "semites" support palestine. The British weren't kicking the palestinians out of their houses when they controlled what is now Israel. and then they gave it to Israel control. That is when the shit started flying.

Yeah, and Israel isn't just blockading water, they are taking water from the Gaza strip.

I am so sick and tired of the pathetic, old name calling by the "zionistas" calling the "lefties" who object to Israel's policy of genocide against the Palestinians "anti-semites". Oh well, I suppose they have no rational defense to the shooting of school children, bulldozing of orchards, building a wall to imprison the population, destroying homes and stealing the land, blockading gas, electricity, water, medical and other life essentials, using WMDs provided by the U.S. and chemical warfare to murder 100s of civilians, mostly children, etc. etc. etc.
FYI, being anti-terrorist, anti-genocide, is not actually being anti-semitic, unless, of course, you assert that all Jews are in favor of the zinoistas' policy, which, I assure you, they are NOT.

MsTerry

01-21-2009, 09:29 AM

Sem·ite <script type="text/javascript"> var interfaceflash = new LEXICOFlashObject ( "https://cache.lexico.com/d/g/speaker.swf", "speaker", "60", "18", "https://www.waccobb.net/forums/", "6"); interfaceflash.addParam("loop", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("quality", "high"); interfaceflash.addParam("menu", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("salign", "t"); interfaceflash.addParam("FlashVars", "soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Faudio%2Fahd4%2FS%2FS0258700.mp3"); interfaceflash.write(); </script><table><tbody><tr><td><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="https://cache.lexico.com/d/g/speaker.swf" id="speaker" quality="high" loop="false" menu="false" salign="t" flashvars="soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Faudio%2Fahd4%2FS%2FS0258700.mp3" width="60" align="texttop" height="18"><noscript>https://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/ahd4WAV/S0258700/semite)</noscript> (sěm'īt')
 n.  
A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.</td></tr></tbody></table>

they also are anti-semite.

Braggi

01-21-2009, 10:08 AM

Todd, the post (in it's entirety below) is lacking coherence or a point. It seems to say that terrorist violence is disconnected and without overarching purpose (which I actually believe) but also implies there is some huge conspiracy at the heart of it (which I don't believe). Is there something you'd like us to glean from this post?

-Jeff

PS. In light of W. Bush's recent experience, I like the guy's name: Shoebat.

https://www.onenewsnow.com/uploadedImages/Media/Images/hamas_supporter.jpgA former Palestinian terrorist says the West continues to pursue a failed idea that somehow terrorism against Israel will stop when the Palestinians get their own homeland.</STORYLEAD>

<STORYBODY>Walid Shoebat is a former member of the Palestine Liberation Organization and a convert to Christianity. He now runs the Walid Shoebat Foundation (https://www.shoebat.com/), which is an organization that cries out for the justice of Israel and the Jewish people. Shoebat, author of the recently published God's War on Terror: Islam, Prophecy and the Bible, believes the recent terrorist rocket attacks by Hamas have nothing to do with wanting a Palestinian homeland.

"The core issue is not an issue of land whatsoever. It's an issue of wiping the state of Israel out. If you look at even suicide bombing -- historically, if you look from 1980 until 2003, let's say -- 224 suicide bombings out of 300 existed in Islamic countries with no occupation whatsoever," he notes. "So it's not simply the desire to create a Palestinian state. It is the desire to destroy the Jewish state, and that's what we see."

https://www.onenewsnow.com/uploadedImages/Media/Images/20070117WalidShoebat.jpgShoebat contends this effort is being carried out by a huge network of Islamic enemies. "It's a rebel network involved between Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran, Syria. Many Islamic countries are involved in this," he points out. "Saudi Arabia was funding...this kind of thing. So it's a huge network that we're dealing with."

toddwquigley

01-21-2009, 01:13 PM

Sem·ite<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> var interfaceflash = new LEXICOFlashObject ( "https://cache.lexico.com/d/g/speaker.swf", "speaker", "60", "18", "https://www.waccobb.net/forums/", "6"); interfaceflash.addParam("loop", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("quality", "high"); interfaceflash.addParam("menu", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("salign", "t"); interfaceflash.addParam("FlashVars", "soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Faudio%2Fahd4%2FS%2FS0258700.mp3"); interfaceflash.write(); </SCRIPT> <TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD><EM><EMBED id=speaker align=textTop src=""https://cache.lexico.com/d/g/speaker.swf width=60 height=18 type=application/x-shockwave-flash quality="high" loop="false" menu="false" salign="t" flashvars="soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Faudio%2Fahd4%2FS%2FS0258700.mp3"><NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT> (sěm'īt')
n. </EM>
A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.What is the purpose of this post, we all know this, we also all know what context it is being used in. Now we are arguing the semantics of semite (LOL!)When someone says: "The Palestinians are strongly anti-semite" we all know that while the Palestinians are technically descendant of the Semite tribes, we are not talking about them hating themselves (although they seem to do that), we are talking specifically about them hating the Jews". So again, what was the purpose of your post? Would you prefer the phrase "anti-Israeli", "anti-Hebrew" or "anti-Jewish"?, that's fine with me, I like the more direct approach. Most people don't, which is why the phrase anti-semite is used to describe those who don't like Jews. But hey, I like anti-Hebrew better, because it accurately describes what these Palestinian supporters are, they are anti-Hebrew, anti-Jew, anti-Israeli, and they are pro-terrorist. Hey, I like that one even better "pro-terrorist", that really describes these anti-Jewish people with their pathetic excuses as to why the Israelis should just stand there and let the Palestinians randomly attack their civillian population with terror attacks. You know, years ago, when the county took some of my land in an easment, and when my neighbor thought that was such a good idea, he filed for, and was granted imminent domain on my land which his deck overhung, I was fairly preturbed. However, I never once considered wiring myself with explosives and walking into the nearest school, or county office. No, I never once considered shooting rockets at my neighbor when he then put up a fence which denied me access to the creek.Pro Palestinian, pro-terrorist, whatever... </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

toddwquigley

01-21-2009, 01:35 PM

I am so sick and tired of the pathetic, old name calling by the "zionistas" calling the "lefties" who object to Israel's policy of genocide against the Palestinians "anti-semites". Oh well, I suppose they have no rational defense to the shooting of school children, bulldozing of orchards, building a wall to imprison the population, destroying homes and stealing the land, blockading gas, electricity, water, medical and other life essentials, using WMDs provided by the U.S. and chemical warfare to murder 100s of civilians, mostly children, etc. etc. etc.
FYI, being anti-terrorist, anti-genocide, is not actually being anti-semitic, unless, of course, you assert that all Jews are in favor of the zinoistas' policy, which, I assure you, they are NOT.

Uhm, the Palestinians are the terrorist and the one's wanting genocide against the Jews, I think somehow you got things reversed. It's OK, you are obviously a leftie, I don't expect you to make sense, emotions overide logic...

Let's get the facts straight:

The Palestinians send suicide bombers into Jewish schools and temples, they shoot rockets at Jewish civilians, and bomb their marketplaces.

The Jews defend the land given to them by UN Mandate, land that they have owned and bought, land that they have occupied for 4,000 years.

Look at the map above, notice the "green line" notice how many Palestinians are living within the Green Line, notice that this is Jewish soil. Now look at the rest of the map, notice that this is also all Jewish soil. Now what's your arguement?

Given your logic, maybe France should give Alsace back to the Germans, and the Germans should bomb French schools and public buildings. Heck, let's give California back to Mexico, forget that silly treaty of Hildago and the money we paid. What about Texas, what about the Louisiana purchase, what about Alaska, etc, etc.

Let's get to the facts: The Israelis own all the land shown on the map, and the Palestinians live there at their pleasure. Why do they live there? Because their Arab cousins will not have them. The only ones accomodating these homeless people are the Jews, yet with your logic, it is somehow all the Jews fault, and they deserve to have their people terrorized, and certainly, they are not allowed to retaliate, or to defend themselves.

Your logic, has no logic, it's straight up fantasy based upon your emotions. An obvious sign of a leftie liberal...

artfulme

01-21-2009, 01:38 PM

Your stupidity is only exceeded by your own anti-semitism!

2000 years of 50,000,000 jews MURDERED by Muslim/Christians because the Jews refused to convert. Hamas carries on that anti-semitic tradition.

"Genocide"--"The murder or attempted murder of an entire etnic group"

Now...what has Hamas been calling for? The complete "elimination of all Jews in Israel and everywhere" GENOCIDE!!!

When has Israel called for the complete elimination of all Arabs or all Palestinians?? NEVER!

And..."NEVER AGAIN"!!

Now...THAT is genocide!! So you join the genocidal terrorists of Hamas/Palestinians?!

Genocidal Palestinians/Hamas are the ones who are happy to place their m,ilitary cannopns/guns/./rockets INSIDE CIVILIAN AREAS! That is a genocide of their supposaed supporters when Israel responds to rocket attyacks AIMED NOT AT MILITARY TARGETS, but rather at ONLY Israeli CIVILIAN homes, schools, restarants, shopping centers.; These terreorists don't give a damn about their being used as death shields.

The Hamas/Palestinians would rather desatroy Israel--and all Jews everywhere--rather than building up their own country abd culture fior the bettermenbt of their supposed people.

The BILLION$$ given over many years to Palestinians from the US and UN and Arab countries for betterment of their lives have been perverted to wage war on Israel; with little/no building of their own country. Killing Jews takes precedence.

And YOU ((lefties) support them/that!

No wonder you are riightfully/correctly named anti-semites.

elienos

01-21-2009, 02:00 PM

Charter of the International Jewish anti-Zionist Network

We are an international network of Jews who are uncompromisingly committed to struggles for human emancipation, of which the liberation of the Palestinian people and land is an indispensable part. Our commitment is to the dismantling of Israeli apartheid, the return of Palestinian refugees, and the ending of the Israeli colonization of historic Palestine.
From Poland to Iraq, from Argentina to South Africa, from Brooklyn to Mississippi, Jews have taken up their quest for justice, and their desire for a more just world, by joining with others in collective struggles. Jews participated prominently in the workers' struggle of the depression era, in the civil rights movement, in the struggle against South African Apartheid, in the struggle against fascism in Europe, and in many other movements for social and political change. The State of Israel's historic and ongoing ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people from their land contradicts and betrays these long histories of Jewish participation in collective liberation struggles.
Zionism-the founding and current ideology that manifested in the State of Israel-took root in the era of European colonialism and was spread in the aftermath of the Nazi genocide. Zionism has been nourished by the most violent and oppressive histories of the nineteenth Century, at the expense of the many strains of Jewish commitment to liberation. To reclaim them, and a place in the vibrant popular movements of our time, Zionism, in all its forms, must be stopped.
This is crucial, first and foremost, because of Zionism's impact on the people of Palestine and the broader region. It also dishonors the persecution and genocide of European Jews by using their memory to justify and perpetuate European racism and colonialism. It is responsible for the extensive displacement and alienation of Mizrahi Jews (Jews of African and Asian descent) from their diverse histories, languages, traditions and cultures. Mizrahi Jews have a history in this region of over 2,000 years. As Zionism took root, these Jewish histories were forced from their own course in service of the segregation of Jews imposed by the State of Israel.
As such, Zionism implicates us in the oppression of the Palestinian people and in the debasement of our own heritages, struggles for justice and alliances with our fellow human beings.
We pledge to: Oppose Zionism and the State of Israel
Zionism is racist. It demands political, legal and economic power for Jews and European people and cultures over indigenous people and cultures. Zionism is not just racist but anti-Semitic. It endorses the sexist European anti-Semitic imagery of the effeminate and weak "diaspora Jew" and counters it with a violent and militarist "new Jew," one who is a perpetrator rather than a victim of racialized violence.
Zionism thus seeks to make Jews white through the adopting of white racism against Palestinian people. Despite Israel's need to integrate Mizrahis in order to maintain a Jewish majority, this racism is also seen in the marginalization and economic exploitation of the socially deprived Mizrahi population. This racialized violence also includes the exploitation of migrant workers.
Zionists disseminate the myth that Israel is a democracy. In truth, Israel has established and enforces internal policies and practices that discriminate against Jews of Mizrahi descent and exclude and restrict Palestinian people. Moreover, Israel, in collaboration with the United States, undermines any Arab movements for social change and liberation.
Zionism perpetuates Jewish exceptionalism. In defense of its crimes, Zionism tells a version of Jewish history that is disconnected from the history and experiences of other people. It promotes the narrative that the Nazi holocaust is exceptional in human history -- despite it being one of many holocausts from Native Americans North and South to Armenia and Rwanda. It sets Jews apart from the victims and survivors of other genocides instead of uniting us with them.
Through a shared Islamophobia and desire for control of the Middle East and broader West Asia, Israel makes common cause with Christian fundamentalists and others who call for Jewish destruction. Together they call for the persecution of Muslims. This shared promotion of Islamophobia serves to demonize resistance to Western economic and military domination. It continues a long history of Zionist collusion with repressive and violent regimes, from Nazi Germany to the South African Apartheid regime to reactionary dictatorships across Latin America.
Zionism claims that Jewish safety depends on a militarized Jewish state. But Israel does not make Jews safe. Its violence guarantees instability and fear for those within its sphere of influence and endangers the safety of all people, including Jews, far beyond its borders. Zionism colluded willingly in creating the conditions that led to violence against Jews in Arab countries. The loathing aroused by Israeli violence and military domination toward Jews living in Israel and elsewhere is used to justify further Zionist violence.
We pledge to: Reject the colonial legacy and on-going colonial expansion
The moment when the Zionist movement decided to build a Jewish State in Palestine, it became a movement of conquest. Like the imperial conquest and genocidal ideologies of the Americas or Africa, Zionism depends on the segregation of people and the confiscation of land that produces ethnic cleansing and depends on unrelenting military violence.
Zionists worked hand in hand with the British colonial administration against the indigenous people of the region and their legitimate hopes for liberty and self-determination. The Zionist imagining of Palestine as "empty" and desolate justified the destruction of Palestinian life in the same way that such racism justified the extermination of Native Americans, the Atlantic slave trade, and many other atrocities.
From the ever expanding settlements to the Apartheid Wall, Israel's commitment to colonial domination leaves its mark in environmental damage and the destruction of the physical landscape of Palestine. The failure of these policies to end Palestinian resistance propels Israel toward ever increasing violence and policies that, when followed to their fullest extent, end in genocide. In Gaza, the Israeli state withholds access to food, water, electricity, humanitarian aid, and medical supplies as a weapon that targets the foundations of human life.
Israel, once a vehicle for the British and French assault on Arab unity and independence, is now a junior partner in the US-allied strategy for world military, economic and political control, specifically for domination of the strategic Middle-East/Southwest Asia region. The danger of nuclear war through a US/Israeli attack on Iran reminds us that Israel is an atomic bomb that should be urgently dismantled for the sake of saving the lives of all its current and potential victims.
We pledge to: Challenge Zionist organizations
Beyond shaping the creation of Israel, Zionism determined its international policy of military dominance and antagonism toward its neighbours, and established a sophisticated global network of organizations, political lobbies, public relation firms, campus clubs, and schools to sustain and perpetuate Zionist ideas in Jewish communities and the general public.
Billions of US dollars flow annually to Israel to sustain the occupation and Israel's sophisticated and brutal army. The war machine they fund is a leader in the global arms industry, which drains resources craved by a world in desperate need of water, food, health care, housing and education. Europe, Canada and the United Nations, meanwhile, prop up the infrastructure of occupation under the guise of humanitarian aid to Palestinian people. Together, the US and its allies cooperate in deepening the domination of the region and suppressing popular movements.
An international network of Zionist institutions and organizations support the Israeli military and militant Jewish settlements with direct funds. These organizations also provide the political support necessary for legitimizing and promoting policies and aid packages. In individual countries, these organizations censor criticisms of Israel and target individuals and organizations with blacklists, violence, imprisonment, deportation, unemployment and other economic hardship.
These organizations facilitate the spread of Islamophobia. They beat the drums of war abroad and push repressive legislation at home. In the United States and Canada, Zionist organizations helped pass "anti-terrorist" legislation making organizing in support of boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel and support for Palestinian, Iranian, Iraqi, and Lebanese and Muslim organizations subject to prosecution as aiding terrorism and committing treason. In both Europe and the US, supposedly "Jewish" organizations are now at the forefront of pushing for war with Iran.
Cracks are appearing in the edifice of Zionism as in that of US world dominance itself. In the region, extraordinary resistance from Palestine and Southern Lebanon to Israeli and US aggression and occupation has been sustained despite limited resources and many betrayals. Around the world, the movement in solidarity with the Palestine people and in confrontation with the U.S. and Israeli policy is gaining momentum. In Israel, this momentum can be seen in brewing dissent that creates possibilities for reclaiming two legacies of the 1960s: Matzpen, an Israeli Palestinian and Jewish anti-Zionist organization, and the Mizrahi Black Panther Party. In Israel there also is growing refusal of youth to participate in mandatory conscription into the army.
Within the governments and public discussions in the United States and Europe, the costs of unconditional support to Israel are increasingly questioned. Israel and the US seek new allies in the global South to join in their economic and military conquests. The growing relationship between Israel and India is a stark example of this. Sharing an interest in political control and capital gain for the few at the expense of the many, the elite in India as well as in countries across the Middle East and broader West Asia collude with the Western economic and military agenda in the region.
The propaganda of the West's Global War on Terror resonates with the Islamophobia that is needed and promoted by the Indian elite and has provided an opportunity for the severe repression of dissent by regimes across the Middle East and South and West Asia. Despite this, there are rising people's movements based in rich histories of anti-colonial struggle that challenge and will ultimately defeat this alliance.
Together with our allies, we aim to help widen those cracks, until the wall comes down and Israel is isolated as was apartheid South Africa. We pledge to take up the battle against these organizations that pretend to speak for us, and to defeat them.
We pledge to: Commit our solidarity and work toward justice
We commit our hearts, minds and political energy to support the varied and vibrant resistance movement of the Palestinian people and to confront the injustices for which the countries we live in are responsible.
We unequivocally support the Palestinian Right of Return. We call for a dismantling of the racist Israeli law of return that privileges the rights of any person that the State of Israel deems as Jewish to settle in Palestine while excluding Palestinians and making them refugees.
We respond wholeheartedly to the call from Palestine for boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel.
We support the demand for the release of Palestinian political prisoners and an end to incarceration of Palestinian political leaders, women, children and men, as a method of control and terror.
It is not our job to prescribe what road the Palestinian people should take toward defining their future. We do not presume to substitute our voices for theirs. Our strategies and actions will emerge from our active relationships with those who are engaged in the range of liberation struggles within Palestine and in the broader region. We will support their struggle to survive, to hold their ground and to advance their movement as best as they can, on their own terms.
We are partners in the vibrant popular resistance movements of our time that defend and cherish the lives of all people and of the planet itself. We are partners in movements that are led by those most impacted by imperial conquest, occupation, racism and the global control and exploitation of people and resources. We stand for the protection of the natural world. We stand by the rights of indigenous peoples to their land and sovereignty. We stand by the rights of migrant peoples and people who are refugees to move freely and safely across borders. We stand by the rights of working people - including migrant workers brought to Israel to replace both Palestinian and Mizrahi labor - to economic justice and self-determination. We stand by rights to racial equality and cultural expression. We stand by the rights of women and children and all exploited groups to be free from subjugation. And we stand by the universal right to water, food, shelter, education, health-care and freedom from violence -- the only basis on which human society can survive and flourish.
We commit to support justice so that healing may take root. There is much to heal: the wounds inflicted by the imposition and operation of colonial rule in Palestine and the broader region; the traumas of the European oppression of Jews that the Zionist project is exploiting; the fears and deprivations suffered through years of bloodshed; the manipulations of culture and resources used to exploit Mizrahi Jews and divide them from Palestinians; and the continuing massacre, rape and dispossession of Palestinian people.
The justice we work for must be built by those throughout Palestine, including Israel, and by Palestinian refugees, whose struggle for self-determination can lead to equity and freedom for all who live there and in the surrounding lands.
We call you to join with us.
These pledges require the building of a united international Jewish movement which challenges Zionism and its claim to speak on behalf of all Jews. In the face of an international adversary, it is not enough to work only locally, or even nationally. We must find ways to work together across boundaries, distances, sectors and languages. There is room for many initiatives and organizations, established and new, to work independently and together, in mutual support and collaboration.
Do you stand against racism in all its forms? Then we call you to join with us in ending Israeli apartheid.
Do you support the sovereignty and land-rights of indigenous peoples? Then we call you to join with us in defending the sovereignty and land-rights of Palestinians.
Do you believe that all our lives depend on economic and environmental sustainability? Are you enraged at the theft and destruction of the world's resources? Then we call you to join with us in stopping Israel's destruction of Palestinian agriculture and land, the theft of land and water, and the bulldozing of villages and groves.
Do you seek an end to the endless wars for oil and military dominance of the US and its allies? Do you want an end to militarized cultures, to the drafting of our young people and the ransacking of resources that finance armies rather than the necessities of life? Then we call on you to join with us in dismantling a critical piece of the global war machine.
Do you wish to dissociate yourself from the Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestine and the destruction of history, culture and self-governance? Do you believe there is no peace without justice? Do you feel enraged and saddened that the holocaust against Jewish people is being used to perpetrate other atrocities? Then we call on you to join with us in ending Zionist colonialism.
For the people of this planet to live in safety, justice and peace, the Israeli colonial project must be brought to an end. We joyfully take up this collective task of undermining a system of conquest and plunder that has tormented our world for far too long.

toddwquigley

01-21-2009, 02:48 PM

From: artfulme <SMALL> </SMALL>
Category: WaccoReader
Thread: What You Don’t Know About Gaza

Your stupidity is only exceeded by your own anti-semitism!

2000 years of 50,000,000 jews MURDERED by Muslim/Christians because the Jews refused to convert. Hamas carries on that anti-semitic tradition.

"Genocide"--"The murder or attempted murder of an entire etnic group"

Now...what has Hamas been calling for? The complete "elimination of all Jews in Israel and everywhere" GENOCIDE!!!

When has Israel called for the complete elimination of all Arabs or all Palestinians?? NEVER!

And..."NEVER AGAIN"!!

Now...THAT is genocide!! So you join the genocidal terrorists of Hamas/Palestinians?!

Genocidal Palestinians/Hamas are the ones who are happy to place their m,ilitary cannopns/guns/./rockets INSIDE CIVILIAN AREAS! That is a genocide of their supposaed supporters when Israel responds to rocket attyacks AIMED NOT AT MILITARY TARGETS, but rather at ONLY Israeli CIVILIAN homes, schools, restarants, shopping centers.; These terreorists don't give a damn about their being used as death shields.

The Hamas/Palestinians would rather desatroy Israel--and all Jews everywhere--rather than building up their own country abd culture fior the bettermenbt of their supposed people.

The BILLION$$ given over many years to Palestinians from the US and UN and Arab countries for betterment of their lives have been perverted to wage war on Israel; with little/no building of their own country. Killing Jews takes precedence.

And YOU ((lefties) support them/that!

No wonder you are riightfully/correctly named anti-semites.

Thank you for stating the truth, nice and bluntly, I make the mistake of trying to reason logic with these emotion driven illogical anti-Semite racists.

Let me be more succinct: If you support the Palestinians, you support, genocidal, terrorist and racist peoples, and you are no better than they are. You are part of the problem, not the cure.

What's the next illogical, emotion driven and insane arguement of the anti-Semite and racist lefties, are you going to argue that the Jews deserved the Holocaust? Are you going to support Al Qaeda? I'm sure that with your logic, as that of Osama Bin Laden, we deserved the 9-11 attacks for helping the Saudi's and Kuwaiti's defend themselves against Iraq.

Even the Palestinian and other Arabs admit that they are genocidal and racist, but somehow against all facts and logic, the lefties seem to think that they are in the right. I've got some news for you: 95+% of the World's population disagrees with you, even most the Arabs and Palestinians that hope for the extermination of the Jews know and admit they are in the wrong.

I really can't believe you far lefties, you call yourselves intelligent, educated and open minded, but I don't see one shred of factual or logical evidence to support this thesis. You are among the most brainwashed, closed minded, illogical and emotion driven peoples on this planet, you make the far right look normal.

Stop getting your news from only sources that support you views, and start getting your news from a variety of objective sources, start looking at things objectively, as in factually and logically. If you start living in reality instead of being ruled by your emotions, your life will be a lot easier, and a lot happier. I know it means admitting to yourself that you have fooled yourself for a long time, and it's embarrassing, but the sooner you start facing reality, and living in it, the easier it is. If you don't, you will just grow to be a bitter and unhappy old person. Old angry, dissillusioned liberals are a pretty pathetic people.

toddwquigley

01-21-2009, 03:30 PM

Per: Charter of the International Jewish anti-Zionist Network

What a bunch of selfloathing leftie crapola. These so-called "Jewish" whiners sound just like the lefties here in Sebastopol.

The Jewish anti-Zionist Network is a known anti Jewish propaganda site, with very few actual Jewish members. The vast majority of it's (small) membership has been shown to be of non-Jewish origin.

Even MSNBC has called them propaganda of Arabic, anti-semitic origins, bent upon the destruction of Israel.

This is nothing but the propaganda of genocidal anti Israelis, to think it represents any but a miniscule self loathing portion of the Jewish people is sheer fantasy.

They call for the dissarament of Israel, which would be the violent end of the Jewish State.

Next you will be posting propaganda from the Holocaust denial groups, or passages from "Mein Kampf".

What are you, some neo-Nazi?

Hotspring 44

01-21-2009, 03:42 PM

elienos

01-21-2009, 03:55 PM

This is my last post cause you are kinda freaky and making a fool of yourself.

Actually the majority of the jewish anti-zionist network that I have known are jewish. Possibly all. I can say that i am not sure about one of them, but I have only met 5. That they aren't jewish is ignorant or wishful thinking. To try to discount these Jewish viewpoints is sad. Jew does not equal anti-palestine or zionism. They are not self-loathing at all, but very proud of their heritage and the struggles they as a culture have endured. Some of them are even Israeli.

I have already said I am not a lefty. And then the Liberal remarks are even more weird, as the Liberals in congress are some of Israels biggest supporters.

And no I am not a neo-nazi, quite the opposite.
I come from a mixed family. My half-brother is Israeli and a rabbi and I have visited him and my nieces and nephews in Israel several times. We have our differences. I don't have a problem with Israeli's, as I think the majority of them want peace. I have a problem with the Israeli state and an ideology called Zionism.

If you don't like the lefties over there is Sebastapol, move to a real town.

Per: Charter of the International Jewish anti-Zionist Network

What a bunch of selfloathing leftie crapola. These so-called "Jewish" whiners sound just like the lefties here in Sebastopol.

The Jewish anti-Zionist Network is a known anti Jewish propaganda site, with very few actual Jewish members. The vast majority of it's (small) membership has been shown to be of non-Jewish origin.

Even MSNBC has called them propaganda of Arabic, anti-semitic origins, bent upon the destruction of Israel.

This is nothing but the propaganda of genocidal anti Israelis, to think it represents any but a miniscule self loathing portion of the Jewish people is sheer fantasy.

They call for the dissarament of Israel, which would be the violent end of the Jewish State.

Next you will be posting propaganda from the Holocaust denial groups, or passages from "Mein Kampf".

What are you, some neo-Nazi?

toddwquigley

01-21-2009, 04:12 PM

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I can address every point you made but I'll make it simple:

You are missing the most obvious point: As long as the State of Israel survives, they will be attacked by those that wish to exterminate them, not for any particular reason except that they exist.

The Israelis have played fair, and it doesn't work, they still get terrorist attacks for the simple reason that people hate their very existence.

It is their very survival that is at stake, and the Palestinians have worked hard to earn the emnity of the Jews.

To say that the vast majority of your statements are way off base is an understatement.

If you so desire, I will go thru each one later tonight and show you with simple 2+2 logic and verifiable facts where you are incorrect in your assumptions.

Simply put, you have the roles of victim and victimizer reversed. it is the Palestinians that are at fault, and even other Arabs that hate Israel readily admit this.

Why it is so hard for such a very small portion of the World's population to understand what the rest of us easily understand is beyond me, but they don't. Maybe it's the need to feel different and special that makes people take the opposing side of any arguement, even if it's completely illogical.

artfulme

01-21-2009, 04:56 PM

Don't like Zionism, eh?

Do you actually KNOW how Zionism was created?

I guess not!

After the upteenth savage pogram by Russia , middle Europeans, which was part of the ongoing slaughers of Jews throughout europe which would lead up to the Holocaust (the 6 million OVENated, worked to death, tortured, starved, and subjected to medical experimentation for the hell of it)...Theodore He3rzel said: ENOUGH!

In order to survive(50 MILLION MURDERED in 2000 years, now) these constant "pograms"--murders, rapes, copnfiscation of their property--Herzel said that JEWS could NOT survive if they did not have a country they could call their own.

He proposed that the place where JEWS have continuosly lived for 5500 years and where they began their country and religion and were subjected to wars that took their country away...and where some had continously lived since then to the present...that would be a refuge from their slaughterings.

In the early 1900s, the British--who controlled that land through military means--were ecstatic about receiving/the recipe for DYNAMITE from a Jewish inventor who posited that the JEWS be settled there as their own country/refuge as his price for the recipe.

Notwithstanding that promise, the British closed all doors of entry to there to refugees fleeing the Nzi LATEST pogram...which was carried out with German efficiency.

So, JEWS sought a haven there. Jews had been living there forever in their communities seeking to live their lives in peace. BUT, the arab Grand Mufti, who had met with Hitlet and approved his plan only complained that Hitler wasn't carrying it out quckly enough. With such good thiongs going on vs the JEWS, the Grande Mufti organized his own legions of "fighters" all of who were mandatorily required to wear the nazi swastika...as an indication of their intent.

Previously, arabs had continued to attack the JEWISH peaceful settlements because they were Jewish.

Following the 2nd world war, the countries that joined in the Holocaust--what a great opportunity to murder JEWS--cameto be faced with their evil doing in the Nazi cause, and the issue of a nation of refuge for these victims and their few survivors was debated in the United Nations.

With american approval, the UN passed that resolution when Russia--which had veto power--had its delegation purposely leave the session.

There were many thousands of Jews already living there and others escaped the nazis and sneaked in, including many of those who sabataged the nazis throughout the war.

When the new nation was recognized by the USA, the JEWS were attacked by legioons of Arabs promising to slaughter them all or drive them into the Mediterranean to drown. The Grand Mufti ORDERED all arabs to leave pending the elimination of the Jews...despite the Jews asking arabs to stay andjoin them in this nation.

The Israelis never wanting to return to the countries which had participated in the pogroms 2000 yrs fought for their refuge nation...the land of their beginnings which had been taken from them by conquest.

NOW...tell me how much you HATE refuge Israel! Zionism is just the most recent hate descriptioon by murderiing Arabs...and their apologists!

So...you count yourself among them. You must be PROUD!

Hotspring 44

01-21-2009, 05:10 PM

toddwquigley

01-21-2009, 07:02 PM

Ah yes, I see, rather than face the facts that Palestine's goal is the extermination of the Israeli State, you just talk in circles, and play the victim for the victimizers.

Get your facts straight: Israel has tried for 60 years to accomodate the Palestinians, and for 60 years, the Palestinians and the rest of the Arabs have tried to kill off the Jews.

That's pretty much the end of all the arguements, except for the deluded.

Want to talk about genocide, and attacks on civilians, that's the Palestinian's game. I guess in your fantasy world, the Jews should just stand there and take it, because obviously they are the evil ones simply for existing. Wow, sounds just like the same excuses used for the last 2,000 years to kill 50 million Jews.

You are all starting to sound just like the Nazi's: It's all the Jew's fault, that's why it's Ok to kill them, and God forbid if they defend themselves, then they are truly evil.

Wake up and face reality, Read the Koran, Islam will never stop trying to exterminate the Jews, and for that matter, anyone else that is not Muslim. That's reality, you may not like it, you may want everyone to get along, but Islam doesn't want everyone to get along, they want the World to be 100% Muslim at any cost, and they have made Israel their first and biggest target.

While the Jews would like to get along with the Arabs, and have tried to for thousands of years, the Arabs simply want all the Jews to die, and they try every chance they get to make it happen.

You people amaze me how you have twisted reality to suit your sick and twisted support of terrorism and genocide against Israel. You justify terrorism and genocide against Israel, and then, in the ultimate irony, you say it's the Jews who are acting way simply because they are trying to defend themselves.

Thank God, there's only a few of you outside of the Muslim World (or are you Muslim?). You are some pretty scary people to hate Israel so much for simply trying to exist.

What's next, postings from the Holocaust denial groups, or are you just going to start quoting Hitler's speeches?

Doesn't it bother you that even the Arabs who wish for the extermination of Israel don't blame the Israelis for defending themselves, but somehow you still try and justify it? Do you not realize that Lebannon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt will not accomodate the Palestinians because they do not trust them.

Funny how Egypt and Jordan have both signed treaties with Israel, but they will not sign treaties with Hamas, because they are a terrorist organization.

You people are a bunch of sicko racists, even the Arabs on the scene don't agree with you. I'm simply amazed how you have twisted reality 180 degrees, to suit your anti-Semite views. I thought this kind of craziness stopped after the Germans lost, but I guess there are still a few Jew haters left.

Before you all open your mouths and spout more of your neo-Nazi, pro-terrorist agenda, why don't you read up on the history of the Jewish people, read up on modern Israel and Palestine from some neutral and objective sources.

Maybe it would help to take a trip to Poland and Eastern Germany, and look at the concentration camps where millions of Jews were killed because of thinking just like I hear from all you pro-terrorist Waccos.

After you visit the camps, spend a few weeks in the Levant. Maybe you will get to witness a suicide bomber's attack on a Jewish school in Tel Aviv and an attack on a Jewish marketplace in Hiafa like I did.

Maybe then you will have a little pity for the Jews for trying to defend themselves against an enemy who's sworn agenda is the end of the Jewish State.

Maybe you will have some pity for the tens of thousands of Jews that have been killed in terrorist attacks, and the hundreds of thousands that have died in wars of agression against Israel.

Maybe you will understand that to be a Zionist simply means that you want to peacefully and safely live in the land that has been yours for over 4,000 years.

In the meantime, you are all just a bunch of deluded anti-Semite, pro-terrorist, racists, and I sure am glad that you are very small minority.

MsTerry

01-21-2009, 07:30 PM

!

When has Israel called for the complete elimination of all Arabs or all Palestinians?? NEVER!

Palestinians killed 1300 in 2 weeks
Israelis killed 13

Palestinians have no army
Israel has unlimited supply of weapons and technology

Israel is Illegally occupying Palestine
Israel is Illegally building settlements
Israel is Illegally building a wall around Palestinians

Just look at the facts and tell me who is trying to eliminate who?

MsTerry

01-21-2009, 07:37 PM

Have you figured out the difference yet between zionist, Jews and Israelis?

<table><tbody><tr><td>
Pro Palestinian, pro-terrorist, whatever...</td></tr></tbody></table>

toddwquigley

01-21-2009, 07:53 PM

Zionist: One who wants to safely and peacefully live on land that the Hebrews have occupied for 4,000+ years

Jew: One of 1/4 or more Jewish blood, or has converted to Judiaism.

Israeli: One who is a citizen of Israel

Of course, you can always consult some wiki source for their opinion, which I'm sure you will...

On the other hand: Pro-Palestinian = pro-terrorist/genocidal maniac (LOL!)

Really now Terry, did you want to waste our time with this semantics game?

MsTerry

01-21-2009, 08:04 PM

I am just curious Todd, when you are going to start justice for all the Native Americans, who have lived on this land for many eons.
Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and give your parcel back to the rightful owners.

Zionist: One who wants to safely and peacefully live on land that the Hebrews have occupied for 4,000+ years

Jew: One of 1/4 or more Jewish blood, or has converted to Judiaism.

Israeli: One who is a citizen of Israel

Of course, you can always consult some wiki source for their opinion, which I'm sure you will...

On the other hand: Pro-Palestinian = pro-terrorist/genocidal maniac (LOL!)

Really now Terry, did you want to waste our time with this semantics game?

toddwquigley

01-21-2009, 08:20 PM

Just look at the facts and tell me who is trying to eliminate who?

If the Jews were trying to eliminate the Palestinians, with the "unlimited weapons", it shouldn't take very long, they must be pretty inefficient to only kill 1,000 in a week

On the other hand, the Palestinians have killed tens of thousands of jews in the last 60 years of the terrorism they have perpretrated against Israeli civilians. Additionally, hundreds of thousands of Jews have died in Arab wars of agression against Israel. I won't even go into the millions and millions killed by Arabs, Eastern Europeans and Germans before the formation of the modern Jewish State.

To say that the Jews are trying to wipe out the Palestinians is absolutely silly, as they are the only ones to try and accomodate them in the last 60 years. On the other hand, only a fool would debate that the ultimate goal of the Palestinians and other Arabs is the elimination of Israel and the extinction of the Jewish race.

If you are wondering why the Jews have fenced off the Palestinians in Gaza, one only has to look at the behavior of the Palestinians in Gaza. Let's remember that there are many Palestinians living elsewhere in Israel that do behave, and have not been sent to Gaza.

How about Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebannon act responsibly and take back their homeless people (The Palestinians) and stop making it a Jewish problem? The Palestinians are by definition, the homeless/stateless people of these nations that settled in Israel because their own countries would not have them.

I'm not the only one asking this question, about 90% of the World is wondering why the Arabs make it Israel's problem, when it's really their problem. Well, the answer is obvious: The Palestinians don't behave very well, and they have made themselves unwelcome wherever they have gone by biting the hand that feeds them. They are also quite usefull to Israel's enemies, as a way to attack Israel without having to suffer the reprocussions of an Israeli counterattack.

Want a bad guy? Blame the Arabs, the Palestinians are just the unwanted pawns of the surrounding Arabic countries, that happily attack Israel for them, hoping for some recognition. If they wanted to live in peace with the Jews, they have certainly had plenty of opportunity, but somehow, they would rather attack. Certainly I don't fault the Israelis for giving them the smack down, they earned it a long time ago.

The Israelis just want to live in peace, they have tried for the last 4,000 years to get along with their neighbors, but their neighbors don't believe that they have the right to exist. Without a doubt, they are the most persecuted people on Earth, for no other reason than they have a different religion than other people. To justify attacking them for any reason, just puts people in the same group as the Nazis.

I'm curious, please name a war where the Jews fired the first shot since they walked around Jericho 7 times 3,500 years ago?

My question, is why do you all keep supporting the terrorists?

MsTerry

01-21-2009, 08:37 PM

They started the six day war...............

I'm curious, please name a war where the Jews fired the first shot since they walked around Jericho 7 times 3,500 years ago?

toddwquigley

01-21-2009, 08:43 PM

I am just curious Todd, when you are going to start justice for all the Native Americans, who have lived on this land for many eons.
Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and give your parcel back to the rightful owners.

I am 1/4 Chippewa, we own Halifax, and most of Nova Scotia. We get along with everybody just fine...

Maybe we should give California back to the native tribes (the ones that came from Mongolia), but the Mexicans also claim it's theirs (They sold it/treaty of Hildago).

Better yet, how about we keep it since we have it.

We bought it from the Mexicans, and they traded it from the Indians.

Funny, I haven't heard about any Miwok's or Mexicans wrapping themselves in C4 and walking into the nearest elementary school, or shooting rockets at the Santa Rosa Mall.

I do agree with you that the reservation system and especially the systematic genocide of the plains indians, was indeed evil. They have their revenge though, they are called casinos. That's where white people go to lose their money and possessions to the Indians.

Back to the point, the Hebrews have lived there for 4,000+ years, and they have always tried to get along with their neighbors, while conversly, their neighbors have only tried to get along with them after they attacked them and lost

Braggi

01-21-2009, 08:46 PM

... When has Israel called for the complete elimination of all Arabs or all Palestinians?? NEVER! ...

Listen, I'm a Pagan, I don't have a horse in this race. Although, when the Hebrews moved into Palestine (or Canaan) their "Good Book" called for the extermination of the Pagans that lived there, so it could be said that historically, the Hebrews and their descendants have no business living in Canaan/Israel/Palestine. But then neither do the Moslems. Oh well.

But perhaps you should just take a look at this: google search on "there is no palestinian people." (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=there+is+no+palestinian+people&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)

I'm against war. I wish the divisiveness could just slow down and end. Most of the people being hurt and killed are innocent. That is our shame and the shame of all of the aggressors on both (all?) sides. Somehow this needs to stop.

Peace,

-Jeff

Braggi

01-21-2009, 09:44 PM

... Back to the point, the Hebrews have lived there for 4,000+ years, and they have always tried to get along with their neighbors ...

That is, the neighbors who were left, 4,000+ years ago after the Hebrews exterminated every man, woman and child except: "... all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves." Hmmm. Sounds like they did their best to get along with the neighbors. At least, certain of the neighbors. Oh yeah, I'd love to have them for neighbors.

Todd, I think you'll do better for your arguments if you leave ancient history out of it. The "Good Book" is full of such rape and pillage. The Hebrews were invaders, pirates, mass murders, and, if we are to believe their Book, the inventors of genocide.

Maybe we should limit the discussion to the Ottoman Empire and up.

I think both sides should stop killing each other. Negotiations can succeed if one of the parties enters the discussion with a spirit of goodwill.

Who is willing?

-Jeff

toddwquigley

01-21-2009, 10:13 PM

They started the six day war...............

Actually while the Israelis were the first to cross the border against the 10 divisions the Egpytians had piled there, the Egyptians actually started the war when they expelled the UN from the Sinai, and then fired upon Israeli ships in the Straights of Tiran.

This was a war where Egypt, Jordan and Syria, backed by Iraq, SA, Sudan, Tunesia, Algeria and Morocco, all decided to exterminate Israel.

In the end, they lost the Golan Heights, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, Gaza and the Sinai to Isreal. Israel then let the Palestinians settle in Gaza.

Here's a quote from Wiki that explains it all, especially why the Palestinians are at fault:

The failure of the Arab states in the 1967 war led to the rise of Arab non-state actors in the conflict, most importantly the Palestinian Liberation Organization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Liberation_Organization) (PLO) which was committed to what it called "armed struggle as the only way to liberate the homeland".<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-71>[72] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-71)</SUP><SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-72>[73] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-72)</SUP> In the late 1960s and early 1970s, Palestinian groups (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_fedayeen) launched a wave of attacks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence)<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-73>[74] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-73)</SUP> against Israeli targets around the world,<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-74>[75] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-74)</SUP> including a massacre of Israeli athletes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre) at the 1972 Summer Olympics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Summer_Olympics). Israel responded with Operation Wrath of God (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wrath_of_God), in which those responsible for the Munich massacre were tracked down and assassinated.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-75>[76] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-75)</SUP>
On October 6, 1973, Yom Kippur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur), the holiest day in the Jewish calendar, the Egyptian and Syrian armies launched a surprise attack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War) against Israel.

No big surprises for Israel, they fought off attacks against them from the same people in 1948, and for thousands of years before that. Here is another piece which explains how the Palestinian problem began, which was with the Arabs attacking Israel:

In 1947, the British government withdrew from commitment to the Mandate of Palestine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine), stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-49>[50] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-49)</SUP> The newly created United Nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations) approved the UN Partition Plan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Partition_Plan) (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181) on November 29, 1947, dividing the country into two states, one Arab and one Jewish. Jerusalem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem) was to be designated an international city – a corpus separatum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_separatum) – administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-50>[51] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-50)</SUP> The Jewish community (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yishuv) accepted the plan,<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-51>[52] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-51)</SUP> but the Arab League (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League) and Arab Higher Committee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Higher_Committee) rejected it.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-52>[53] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-52)</SUP> On December 1, 1947 the Arab Higher Committee proclaimed a 3-day strike, and Arab bands began attacking Jewish targets. Civil war began with the Jews initially on the defensive but gradually moving into offence. The Palestinian-Arab economy collapsed and 250,000 Palestinian-Arabs fled or were expelled.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-53>[54] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-53)</SUP>
On May 14, 1948, the day before the end of the British Mandate, the Jewish Agency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Agency) proclaimed independence, naming the country Israel. The following day five Arab countries – Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq –invaded Israel, launching the 1948 Arab-Israeli War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-npr_54-0>[55] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-npr-54)</SUP> Morocco, Sudan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia also sent troops to assist the invaders. After a year of fighting, a ceasefire was declared (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Armistice_Agreements) and temporary borders, known as the Green Line (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Line_(Israel)), were established. Jordan annexed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_the_West_Bank_and_East_Jerusalem_by_Jordan) what became known as the West Bank (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank) and East Jerusalem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem), and Egypt took control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Gaza_Strip_by_Egypt) of the Gaza Strip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip). Israel was admitted as a member of the United Nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations) on May 11, 1949.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-55>[56] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-55)</SUP> During the conflict 711,000 Arabs, according to UN estimates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimates_of_the_Palestinian_Refugee_flight_of_1948), or about 80% of the previous Arab population, fled the country (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-un_56-0>[57] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-un-56)</SUP> The fate of the Palestinian refugees (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee) today is a major point of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict).

So, the Palestinians are technically POW's of a war that they started and lost, and which continues on today because of their constant terror attacks against Israeli civilians. The Israelis treat them pretty darn good for what they have done to Israel. They have tried time and again to accomodate the POW's that we now call Palestinians, and what do they get for their troubles? Attacks upon their civbilian population. Is it any wonder that Israel responds to 60 years of terrorism and attemped genocide against them?

Personally I think they treat the Palestinians pretty good considering how the Palestinians have treated them. Most of the World seeems to think so too. You certainly don't see anybody but the Israelis trying to accomodate the Palestinians, yet the Palestinians continue to bite the hand that feeds them.

So please explain, how is it the Israeli's fault when all they have done is defend themselves from peoples who have tried to exterminate them?

artfulme

01-21-2009, 10:17 PM

Jeff, your analagy is false. And anti-semitic!

ALL SOCIETIES IN THESE ANCIENT LANDS WERE CONQUERERS!! THAT WAS THEN THE TIME OF KINGS-driven societies WARRING FOR GOLD/TERRITORY. Conquer or be conquered was the rule of the day.

The Hebrews did not--in your anti-semetic take--invent that way of societies.

That you should accuse Jews of inventing that way of societies is just more proof of your bigotry and anti-semitism.

Knowing history is more than sloganeering. It is a conscious understanding through facts as best as we can determine. Your slavery to anti-semitism is thus apparent...to blame the Hebrews for inventing that way that had been in existence for centures before the Jews offered the 10 commandmenmts...none of which say that you should not defend yourself from the murderousa butchery foisted upon them for the last 2000 years...is pure unadulterated ant-semitism.

Braggi

01-21-2009, 10:44 PM

Jeff, your analagy is false. And anti-semitic!

ALL SOCIETIES IN THESE ANCIENT LANDS WERE CONQUERERS!! THAT WAS THEN THE TIME OF KINGS-driven societies WARRING FOR GOLD/TERRITORY. Conquer or be conquered was the rule of the day.
...

Bull. You're quite ignorant.

I'll not engage further with you.

-Jeff

artfulme

01-21-2009, 10:46 PM

NOW...how abou some REAL TRUTHFUL FACTS!

After the UN validated the state of ISRAEL (a place where many have continuously living for the past 4000 years), the Grand Mufti DEMANDED THAT ALL ARABS LEAVE THE COUNTRY ON THE PROMISE TO SLAUGHTER THESE UPSTART ISRAELIS,DESTROY THEIR COUNTRY, and re-assume the Mufti's long-held Nazi collaboration, after conferring with Hitler having had his own legions wear the swastika armband during their killing raids on the peaceful Jewish settlements, resulting in thousands of deaths, women and children included.

Since the creation of Israel, the arabs (instead of settling these fleeing Arabs and moving them to within their societal participation) have started several wars against Israel in order to fulfill the Mufti/s promise.

These expectations for conquering and destroying were turned back by the israelis...not without death and severity of injuries' The 6-day war: you "mistakenly" failed to mention that it was begun by the Arabs who suffered defeat.

After suffering such wars of intended elimination, the Jews offered GAZA to Egypt. Egypt said: "NO" So, theIsraelis said they'd stay )OCCUPY) for the purposes of their own safety and security...since the Arabs were?are bebt oin attacking trhem to elimination.

So...the Israeli occupatioobn was brought about by the Arab insistence on warring against it and either murdering all the Jews and/or drowning them in the Mediterranean Sea.

There's so much more. It's a shame you hate facts... and supply deceptioon instead...again!!

Hotspring 44

01-21-2009, 10:46 PM

toddwquigley

01-21-2009, 11:09 PM

Well Jeff, I agree with part of what you say, that being that it would be much better if everybody could get along. Unfortunately, this is a very old fight, and sadly I don't see anything changing until one or the other ceases to exist.

To understand what is going on now, one must consider the past, and when talking about these peoples, the past goes back a long way. These peoples are motivated by events that happened thousands of years ago.

Over 4000 years ago, Abraham came from Iraq and settled in Canaan, where they lived side by side with the Canaanites. This was pretty much the last time everybody got along, after a few hundred years the peoples were intermixed and all considered themselves Hebrews.

When the Jews came back from their Egyptian vacation, they found other peoples living in their lands, and they gave them two options: Live with us, or fight us. Some took the former, and some took the latter. Those that chose the former became part of the Jews, and those that chose the latter became part of the landscape.

Ever since then, people have been trying to exterminate the Jews. Yes there have been times of peace, the Jews have never wanted war, but this is the most fought over land in the World, because neither side will back down.

The crazy thing is that they are all descended from the same people, and the difference between them is Islam.

In 630AD, Mohammed made it official: The Jews were to be exterminated, and the World was to be a 100% Islamic World by whatever means necessary. Since then these peoples who used to be friends and neighbors have been one one side or the other of this ongoing conflict. If you are a Jew, this is your land, and if you are Muslim, the Jews have no right to exist.

Pretty sad, and who knows how it will end. Currently, Israel has fairly decent relations with their neighbors. Part of this is they know that they can't beat Israel, part of it is the need for trade, and part is because some are softening towards each other. The problem now is the Islamic radicals, they still hate Israel, and while they are afraid to, or can't attack Israel directly, they have a great tool in the form of what we call Palestinians. The Palestinians hate the Jews, and they conveniently live among them, so they give the palestinians weapons, and stir them up, knowing the Palestinians will attack, and hoping World opinion will turn against the Jews for defending themselves.

Personally I see the greatest tradegy to be Mohammed. Had Mohammed not set forth his hate of Israel, and his hate for anybody that didn't follow him in the Koran, things would be entirely different today.

It's an old, old problem, and I don't see it getting better for a long, long time. To me it's one of the really sad things in the World, that so many people hate little Israel, simply because of one man's misguided teachings.

Hotspring 44

01-22-2009, 07:31 AM

Braggi

01-22-2009, 08:13 AM

... The crazy thing is that they are all descended from the same people, and the difference between them is Islam.
... It's an old, old problem, and I don't see it getting better for a long, long time. ...

I suppose it could be said the difference between them is Judaism.

Yes, it's an old problem, but I have more hope now than ever before that there will be a long term solution ... soon?

20 years ago I went to Paris and my wife and I were treated like unwelcome pests. We went again last summer and were treated like very welcome guests. In the 20 years between visits, the French figured out that foreign money is a good thing and, in fact, is what makes Paris tick. Also, a lot of bitter old French people died and were replaced by hip, cosmopolitan youngsters. And my wife did a lot of brushing up on her old French studies so we were able to offer some coherent French words to open some conversations. Also, we had more money and, I imagine, appeared more mature and more financially able to participate in our vacation.

So, changes happened on both sides. As time goes on, changes are happening on both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I think the biggest single change is the availability of mass communication. Palestine now has cell phones and internet access. Peace groups in Israel and peace groups in Palestine can now communicate and that will open doors.

Let's all pray for their success.

-Jeff

toddwquigley

01-22-2009, 12:14 PM

Here is a video of an Arab woman in Dubai speaking about Islam. Everybody should watch this, and pass it to their friends. I am sure she now has a price on her head, and that it will not be on the air for very long.

<https://switch3. castup.net/ cunet/gm. asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=nul (https://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=nul)>

artfulme

01-22-2009, 02:14 PM

It is a pleasure to read your rationaliztions! AntiSemitism on parade. Following the 2000 year orgy of killing Jews by your ancestors. Cool.

1-No Army? Well then , it must have been some fantasy/ghosts that have had Israerl under a 60-YEAR SEIGE. I suppose the rockets, and cannon firing upon Israeli citizens intending to kill as many as possible were/are just figments of the imagination. Terrorist gangs don't want an "army" which then, so identified,could be defended against when shown.
Instead these arab terrorists (of course you call them "freedom fighters") hide behind their black masks so they cannot be identified and held responsible for their terrorist attacks.

Now, THAT'S an a
"army" you New Fascists can be proud of.

2-Israel is armed! Wow! What a surprise! A nation of 7 million surrounded by 300 million Arabs bent on their destruction. Certainly, Israel MUSTapologize for that, and DISARM!! Right?

3-Settlements are/were illegal? Perhaps. Take note: suicide bombings intended to kill ALL Israelis...blowing up children in school buses, customers in pizza parlors, offices around the world containing jewish peace & helping the poor agencies throughout the world are all ok?

The settlements issue-and other issues- will be dealt with as soon as Arabs cease their intended destruction of Israel's people and country.

4-The "wall" was put up as a barrier to the ongoing suicide bombers whose aims were and are to kill ass many JEWS as possible.

That they willingly and confidently send their children attached to bombs to kill Israeli civilians should be of great comfort to you new Fascists.

What Israeli--with Israeli encouragement and agreement--EVER set off a bomb to kill Arab civilians? None! But you APPROVE such evil! Make no barrier to death-dealing suicide bombers..ay?

For your information, the Arab suicide bombings have been mostly stopped by that wall. Sorry if that offends you! You'd much rather have it not there so the suicide bombing of Israeli citizens can continue. Right?
Of course, Israel has absolutely no right to defend against that! Ay?

You are, like so many of the Lefty New Fascists: justifying the Hamas/Palestinian promised genocide of the Israelis and Jews everywhere!

Someday you just might have to face the truth of your ingrained antisemtiism...but apparently not now.

toddwquigley

01-22-2009, 02:19 PM

Thank you TW!

Do you really think these uber-lefty-antisemites would hEAR this??

Their minds are SO inured with Jew-suspician-envy-fear of their evident success-2000 years of hatred via their forbears and present enablers that thyeir antisemitism just comes naturally to them.

Further, they just can't see themselves in the mirror which more accurately (as in The Picture of Dorian Grey) reflects the evil within them.

And, their "thought processes" hit a wall when the "poor Palestinians" (kept that way by their rulers) are trotted out to justify murdering Israelis.

There is little hope that these New Fascists will get beyond their inborn antisemitiusm.

OUR only way is to confront them and put them down and in their place with FACTS, not irrational rantings, at every turn..

PERHAPS the day will come when they will see their own evil; our job is to point it out to them each and every time they use all their base canards!

Thinks again for lighting the dark with the brightness of truth!

P.S., Please feel free to add this letter to the postings at WACCO, etc.!

Thanks for the kind word Art, I try, but it's hard to get past years of thinking, much of which was learned at an impressionable age in high school and college.

I used to be shocked to see other students nodding their heads yes to things that made no sense, just because the teacher said so, and it sounded good. When I confronted an instructor on this, he said, the facts were not important, it was important to get people to think a certain way. I countered that he was teaching them to think his way, and that his way wasn't based on reality.

This is why you see so many people thinking that socialism is a great idea, even though we all know that socialism isn't a viable self supporting form of government, and that it enforces mediocrity. You can tell them all day that we can't afford it, and that America files over 60% of the World's patents because of capitalism, but they don't want to hear ity, so they don't.

The schools are full of extreme left thinking, because it works for the instructors who don't have to live in the real World. They teach this to the students as Gospel, and then the students are dissappointed and dissillusioned when they go out into the World and come up against a different truth. Look at the liberals in Sebastopol, such a glum lot, because the World isn't the way they want it to be.

Go to the Sebastopol Post Office, look at the newspaper machines, you will notice a sign that says: "Please don't take papers that you don't pay for, the last time Obama won, I lost 115 papers, I am a single mom, etc.." Who's taking those papers with Obama on the front? Not us Centrists or the Righties, it's the Lefties that think the World owes them something, never thinking or caring that what they get for free, costs someone else. It's straight up styealing, but I'll bet everyone of them has an excuse.

The other reason you see people rooting for the Palestinians, is a common basic thing, that most of us don't want to see people suffer. The problem is that there is going to be suffering in this World, because it's also the nature of man to prosecute their brethern. For every person that wants to see peace, there's another person that only wants to see peace on their terms. The Palestinians have been trying to play this sympathy card for decades now, but it is no longer effective on very many people (except in Sebastopol).

We are taught to root for the underdog, which is good, except when who is actually the underdog get twisted. In this case, the Palestinians are portrayed as the poor prosecuted underdog, but the truth is that they are just part of an overwhelmingly large group of Arabs that want to see the Jews exterminated. The underdog has always been Israel. The truth is as we know, and as history records, that what we call Palestinians are just those Arabs that lost the Arab-Israeli war, and stayed on in Israel as agitators and terrorists.

The real citizens of Palestine left Israel 60 years ago, and what we have today are the descendents of those trouble makers from surrounding Arab countries that attacked Israel, lost, and then stayed in Israel to continue the fight as terrorists AKA: the PLO. This is why the vast majority of the World has no sympathy for them, we know who they really are. Is it sad that they raise children that are part of the fight? Sure, but on the other hand, they don't hesitate to use these kids as human shields and human bombs.

What is a lot sadder is that no children on either side would get killed if the so-called Palestinians would stop terrorizing the Jews. Somebody commented, that not all Palestinians are terrorists, and that is true, but the truth is also that an overwhelming number of them either are terrorists or support the terrorists, and that makes them just as guilty by the laws of any country.

People like to point out that the Jews recently killed over a thousand Palestinians because 13 Jews were killed, but they miss the point that the Palestinians not only started this particular battle, but they continued to fire rockets indescriminately into the Israeli population throught the conflict (and in fact they are still shooting mortors as we speak, and this is supposedly a cease fire). When the other guy is still shooting at you, it's not overkill, it's just part of war.

They conveniently forget all of the thousands of Jews killed by Palestinian terror attacks in the last few years, the tens of thousands killed by Palestinian terror attacks since 1948, and the hundreds of thousands killed by Arab agression since 1948.

If you pro-palestinians learn any truth about this ongoing conflict, learn this: The people that call themselves Palestinians are not in fact from Palestine, the real Palestinians left 60 years ago. The so-called "Palestinians" are those Arabs that decided to stay in Israel after the Arab-Israeli war specifically to continue the fight as terrorists and agitators. The vast majority of them had never lived in Palestine, they simply stayed there or emigrated after the war to make trouble for the Jews.

They have been and are to this day, the in place Arab terrorist arm against the Jews. They are not the victims, they are the victimizers. Their history and their actions prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt. If you believe otherwise, you are not looking at the facts objectively, and to the other 90% of the World, you are both ignorant and wrong. Whether this is because of brainwashing, anti-Israel propaganda, self delusion or missguided good intentions, doesn't matter. What matters is that you start to live your life in truth to this issue, otherwise you will continue to be deceived, and to be a pawn of those who's goal is the extermination of the Jewish State.

The Palestinians are anything but the innocent victim, they are the victimizer. If you believe otherwise, you are among the few that have been duped and support the wrong side, and this probably because you have the right intentions of wanting to help the underdog.

Read the history of the region from an objective, and neutral information source with an open mind, and you views will change.

MsTerry

01-22-2009, 02:57 PM

Well, then let me spell it out for you, objectively.
Jews and non-Jews living in the ME who are of the Semitic race all the same, they are all Arabic.
The People called Palestinians are direct descendants from the people who lived in Palestine 4000 years ago.
The immigrated jews (this is a religion, not a race) are only remotely descendant from the people who lived 4000 years in Palestine.
Now that you can see the truth, Todd, are you going to stop changing reality?

Read the history of the region from an objective, and neutral information source with an open mind, and you views will change.

toddwquigley

01-22-2009, 03:25 PM

Well, then let me spell it out for you, objectively.
Jews and non-Jews living in the ME who are of the Semitic race all the same, they are all Arabic.
The People called Palestinians are direct descendants from the people who lived in Palestine 4000 years ago.
The immigrated jews (this is a religion, not a race) are only remotely descendant from the people who lived 4000 years in Palestine.
Now that you can see the truth, Todd, are you going to stop changing reality?

Again, you have your facts wrong:

The so-called "Palestinians" for the vast majority did not live in Palestine until 1948 (see the Wikipedia article I already posted), they are those poeples that came from all over the Arab World to fight in the Arab-Israeli War of 1948, and stayed on as agitators and the terrorist arm of the Arab nations allied against the Jewish State. The REAL Palestinians left in droves right before the war and dissimulated throughout the neighboring Arab countries so that they could fight against Israel from the outside, rather than have to live in Israel.

While many Jews from around the World came to Palestine in the century preceeding the formation of the Jewish State, a larger protion of the Jews in Israel at the formation of the Jewish State had been living there for literally thousands of years.

I don't know where your views come from, but they are not in line with the known and regularily accepted history of the region that even the other Arabs acknowledge.

The people that we now call Palestinians are nothing more than the in place agitators and terrorist arm of the Muslim World that is determined to see the extermination of the Jewish State, and the Jews in general. They came from all over the Muslim World to fight the Jews, and only a very small amount of them had ever lived in the area before 1948. Conversly, the majority of the Jews HAD been living there for a considerable amount of time prior to 1948, in many cases their families had been there thousands of years.

Please, don't accuse me of trying to change history when you are the one going against established and accepted history, I'm not buying into this upside down reality that you want to believe in. For that matter, neither is the vast majority of the rest of the World, when pushed, even the Muslims admit the truth about the so-called "Palestinians".

I simply don't understand why you guys keep trying to change facts to suit your twisted view, when it's so much easier to live in the truth.

toddwquigley

01-22-2009, 03:30 PM

Terry,

Read what even leftist wikipedia has to say about Israel and the so-called "Palestinians". Even their acknowledged leftist versions of reality don't support what you are saying.

Watch this video, it's an Arab woman speaking about Arabs and Islam:

<https://switch3. castup.net/ cunet/gm. asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=nul (https://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=nul)>

Give it up, join reality: The "Palestinians" are not the victims here, they are doing the victimizing..........

MsTerry

01-22-2009, 09:45 PM

Please, don't accuse me of trying to change history when you are the one going against established and accepted history
Todd, I think you are beyond repair.
But this is for the others who might think that you are telling the truth.

In 1937, Israel's future first Prime Minister David Ben Gurion said "We must expel Arabs and take their places." <sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-3">[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus#cite_note-3)</sup> By 1951, the United Nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations) (UN) estimated 711,000 Palestinian refugees (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees) existed outside Israel,<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-un_4-0">[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus#cite_note-un-4)</sup> with about one-quarter of the estimated 160,000 Arab Palestinians remaining in Israel as "internal refugees (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Present_absentees)." Today, Palestinian refugees and their descendants are estimated to number more than 4 million people.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-5">[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus#cite_note-5)</sup>
This clearly shows the Zionist Plot to steal Palestinian land, and the fact that Palestinians are the descendants of the original people inhabiting Palestine.
Ben Gurion was considered a terrorist, and made good on his words during the Palestinian Holocaust
<sup id="cite_ref-5" class="reference"></sup>

Hotspring 44

01-22-2009, 10:05 PM

toddwquigley

01-22-2009, 11:50 PM

Thank you for proving my point Terry, read EXACTLY what I wrote:

I said that the vast majority of the real Palestinians left Israel in 1948. I also said that the majority of those that call themselves Palestinians that lived in Israel after 1948 were Arabs that came from outside the area originally.

Funny, that's exactly what your quote from Wikipedia says, what are you trying to prove except that you can't read?

As far as Ben Gurion's comments in 1937 (he said the same thing before and after that also), if this makes for a Zionist plot that extends beyond one person, that's an awfully large stretch of even yoour vivid imagination and proves absolutely zip, zero, nada.

Palestinian Holocaust, yeah right, tell me about all the Palestinians that went to concentration camps, tell me about Palestinians that were put into slave labor camps, etc, etc...

My God, where do you get this stuff, did you learn it at some ultra-liberal school, did you read it in some anti-Israeli rag, or do you have some Palestinian friends?

Here, try this one on for size:

On May 14, 1948, the day before the end of the British Mandate, the Jewish Agency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Agency) proclaimed independence, naming the country Israel. The following day five Arab countries – Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq –invaded Israel, launching the 1948 Arab-Israeli War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-npr_54-0>[55] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-npr-54)</SUP> Morocco, Sudan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia also sent troops to assist the invaders. After a year of fighting, a ceasefire was declared (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Armistice_Agreements) and temporary borders, known as the Green Line (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Line_(Israel)), were established. Jordan annexed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_the_West_Bank_and_East_Jerusalem_by_Jordan) what became known as the West Bank (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank) and East Jerusalem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem), and Egypt took control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Gaza_Strip_by_Egypt) of the Gaza Strip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip). Israel was admitted as a member of the United Nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations) on May 11, 1949.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-55>[56] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-55)</SUP> During the conflict 711,000 Arabs, according to UN estimates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimates_of_the_Palestinian_Refugee_flight_of_1948), or about 80% of the previous Arab population, fled the country (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-un_56-0>[57] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-un-56)</SUP> The fate of the Palestinian refugees (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee) today is a major point of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict)

Oh my gosh, look, it's exactly what I said, which was that the vast majority of the real Palestinians left the country in 1948, hmmm tha's funny, that's exactly what I read here:

During the conflict 711,000 Arabs, according to UN estimates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimates_of_the_Palestinian_Refugee_flight_of_1948), or about 80% of the previous Arab population, fled the country (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus)

So where did all those so-called "Palestinians" that started to move there during and after the war come from, since the real Palestinians left en-mass? Hmmm, could it be, no, not Egypt, Jordan and Syria and many other Arab countries... But wait, aren't they actually Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians, why would they suddenly move to Israel and call themselves "Palestinians" when they had never lived there before. I guess that's a little over your head...

Oh, but let's read on:

After a year of fighting, a ceasefire was declared (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Armistice_Agreements) and temporary borders, known as the Green Line (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Line_(Israel)), were established. Jordan annexed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_the_West_Bank_and_East_Jerusalem_by_Jordan) what became known as the West Bank (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank) and East Jerusalem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem), and Egypt took control (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Gaza_Strip_by_Egypt) of the Gaza Strip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip).

Oh my God, does that mean that Jordan and Egypt stole Palestinian and Jewish land that wasn't their's, how could that be? I wonder what happened to the Palestinians that were living there, we know that they threw out the Jews, many of which had been living there for literally thousands of years.

But lets go on:

Arab countries over the years refused to regard Israel as having a right to exist, and Arab nationalists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_nationalism) led by Nasser (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamal_Abdel_Nasser) called for the destruction of the state.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-69>[70] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-69)</SUP>

Ah, Arabs want to exterminate the Jewish State, even though Jews have lived on this land for thousands of years.

In 1967, Egypt, Syria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria), and Jordan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan) massed troops close to Israeli borders, expelled UN peacekeepers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Emergency_Force) and blocked Israel's access to the Red Sea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Sea). Israel saw these actions as a casus belli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casus_belli) for a pre-emptive strike (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preemptive_war) that launched the Six-Day War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War), Israel achieved a decisive victory in which it captured the West Bank (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank), Gaza Strip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip), Sinai Peninsula (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinai_Peninsula) and Golan Heights (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golan_Heights).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-70>[71] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-70)</SUP> The 1949 Green Line (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Line_(Israel)) became the administrative boundary between Israel and the occupied territories (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories). Jerusalem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem)'s boundaries were enlarged, incorporating East Jerusalem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem). The Jerusalem Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Law), passed in 1980, reaffirmed this measure and reignited international controversy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution_478) over the status of Jerusalem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positions_on_Jerusalem).

Well it looks like the Arabs not only lost their attempt to exterminate Israel, but they lost the lands that they had stolen from the Jews too. I guess that a perfectly good reason to use their in-place terrorists, called Palestinians, to kill lots of Jewish citizens:

The failure of the Arab states in the 1967 war led to the rise of Arab non-state actors in the conflict, most importantly the Palestinian Liberation Organization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Liberation_Organization) (PLO) which was committed to what it called "armed struggle as the only way to liberate the homeland".<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-71>[72] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-71)</SUP><SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-72>[73] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-72)</SUP>

Pretty funny that they call it the home land, since it was only the real homeland of 20% of them, hey it makes for a good excuse for your friends to kill yet more Jews:

In the late 1960s and early 1970s, Palestinian groups (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_fedayeen) launched a wave of attacks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence)<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-73>[74] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-73)</SUP> against Israeli targets around the world,<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-74>[75] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-74)</SUP> including a massacre of Israeli athletes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre) at the 1972 Summer Olympics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Summer_Olympics).

Hmmm, I guess what they are saying there is that the Arabs that had been calling themselves "Palestinians", the ones that had been making terrorist attacks and agitating against Israel, decided the would just using wholesale terror attacks againmst Jews, because......... because why not?

Israel responded with Operation Wrath of God (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wrath_of_God), in which those responsible for the Munich massacre were tracked down and assassinated.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-75>[76] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-75)</SUP>
On October 6, 1973, Yom Kippur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur), the holiest day in the Jewish calendar, the Egyptian and Syrian armies launched a surprise attack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War) against Israel. The war ended on October 26 with Israel successfully repelling Egyptian and Syrian forces but suffering great losses.

Gotta love those Arabs, they like to try and exterminate Jews on Jewish holidays, how mighty nice of them not to start a war of extermination on a work day.

<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-76>[77] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-76)</SUP> An internal inquiry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agranat_Commission) exonerated the government of responsibility for the war, but public anger forced Prime Minister Golda Meir (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golda_Meir) to resign.

But wait, let's read more about those wonderful, loveable, poor missunderstood Arab terrorists who like to kill Jewish civilians and call themselves "Palestinians":

On June 7, 1981, Israel heavily bombed Iraq (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq)'s Osirak nuclear reactor in Operation Opera (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera), disabling it. Israeli intelligence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad) had suspected Iraq was intending to use it for weapons development. In 1982, Israel intervened in the Lebanese Civil War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War) to destroy the bases from which the Palestine Liberation Organization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization) launched attacks and missiles at northern Israel. That move developed into the First Lebanon War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Lebanon_War).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-80>[81] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-80)</SUP> Israel withdrew from most of Lebanon in 1986, but maintained a borderland buffer zone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Security_Zone) until 2000. The First Intifada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Intifada),

Ah, yet more terrorism, and it's all justified because we call ourselves Palestinians, even though almost all of us are not actually Palestinians:

a Palestinian uprising against Israeli rule,<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-81>[82] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-81)</SUP> broke out in 1987 with waves of violence occurring in the occupied territories (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories). Over the following six years, more than a thousand people were killed in the ensuing violence, much of which was internal Palestinian violence.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-82>[83] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-82)</SUP>

"Yeah Iraq, you go Saddam, kill us a bunch of Jews, they deserve it for breathing"...

During the 1991 Gulf War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War), the PLO and many Palestinians supported Saddam Hussein (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein) and Iraqi missile attacks against Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War#Iraq_launches_missile_strikes).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-83>[84] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-83)</SUP><SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-84>[85] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-84)</SUP>

In 1992, Yitzhak Rabin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Rabin) became Prime Minister (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister) following an election (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_legislative_election,_1992) in which his party promoted compromise with Israel's neighbors.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-85>[86] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-85)</SUP><SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-86>[87] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-86)</SUP> The following year, Shimon Peres (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimon_Peres) and Mahmoud Abbas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abbas), on behalf of Israel and the PLO, signed the Oslo Accords (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords), which gave the Palestinian National Authority (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Authority) the right to self-govern parts of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-87>[88] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-87)</SUP> A declared intent was recognition of Israel's right to exist and an end to terrorism.

Hmmm, so the Arab terrorists got self government for the land Israel had given them and Israel is still not recognized by the majority of the Arabs, and the terror attacks from your buddies in the PLO/Hamas still continue. In fact as I write this your dear friends, the terrorists, are still firing mortars at the Israeli population, even though they agreed to a cease fire and the Jews have honored it.

<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-88>[89] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-88)</SUP> In 1994, the Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Jordan_Treaty_of_Peace) was signed, making Jordan the second Arab country to normalize relations with Israel.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-89>[90] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-89)</SUP>
Arab public support for the Accords was damaged by the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_massacre), continuation of settlements (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement),<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-90>[91] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#cite_note-90)</SUP> and checkpoints, and the deterioration of economic conditions. Israeli public support for the Accords waned as Israel was struck by Palestinian suicide attacks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hamas_suicide_attacks).

Well, here we finally have an act against the palestinians, the Caves of the Patriarchs massacre, perpretrated by an American that had settled in Israel, (and had yet to be granted full citizenship).

Well of course, that's a wonderful excuse for yet more Terrorist attacks from you dear friends the Arab/terrorists.

Do I sound condescending, well I hope so, because the stuff you have been saying is just straight up Illogical and fantasy. Anybody that makes appologies or tries to justify Arab terrorism against Israel for whatever reason has some real issues that need to be addressed in therapy, or is completely divorced from reality.

I cannot understand what you were trying to do by posting that quote from Wikipedia, because instead of dissproving what I said, it comfirmed it:

The great majority of the real Palestinians left the area in 1948, they were replaced by Arab agitators and terrorists who then called themselves Palestininas in order to try and have a legitimate claim to be there.

This does not really fool much of anyone except for the gullible, as most people know them for what they really are, which is straight up Arab terrorists. These crazy people wrap their children in explosives, and send them into schools and other areas filled with Jewish civilians. This is not to "reclaim their land" because the great majority of the modern so-called "Palestinians" never lived in the area in the first place. Their terrorist attacks against the Jewish population is simply their attempt at exterminating the Jewish State. They foolishly believe that by playing the victim while being the victimizer, that the rest of the World does not see through their charade and that they have the World's support. We I guess they should be happy, they have fooled MsTerry and many other leftie wackos.

Even if I was to suspend reality and I was to believe the fantasy that the vast majority of the so-called "Palestinians" actually had a legitimate claim to the land, there is just no way I can condone their endless cycle of terrorism they have perpretrated upon the Israelis.

Terry, you had my respect until you took the side of the Arab terrorists, but now you have lost it. Sorry, but there is just no viable excuse for the so-called "Palestinian's terrorism against the Jews, and by making excuses for, and condoning it you have lowered yourself to their level.

toddwquigley

01-23-2009, 12:30 AM

Hey Hotspring, are you paying attention to what you are reading and by whom it is written?

As per your last posting:

I didn't write that, Art did, so don't involve my name with it. If you want to go after me for my pieces that's fine, but make sure they are mine before you attack me.

Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with generalizations. They are called that because they represent the majority (IE: That which is generally true), which for the sake of argument, is generally enough. Many of us have found that when we use specifics, we wind up playing verbal games of tiny details and semantics with wackos. Because they don't have a good rebuttal, they instead attack the little details and protocol of what was said so they can call it a victory.

Another favorite tactic is to point out name calling, and other obvious things that have no bearing on the argument and then make an issue of them.

Another tactic is to insist that one's feelings are facts, because one says they are. Not to be sexist in any way, but women do this a lot more then men.

Related to that is the old trick that liberals love so much, which is to spin things 180 degrees, and insist that they are so because one said so regardless of evidence to the contrary.

Yet another tactic is to point out the semantics and word choice when most people understand perfectly well what the person meant, in order to cause distraction from the actual issues and claim some tiny victory. This is a favorite attack tactic of MsTerry, along with the two preceeding tactics.

Attacking someone over how they said something instead of what they said is sidetracking and trolling, and really doesn't contribute anything of value to the discussion.

MsTerry

01-23-2009, 09:28 AM

Todd
you really are a callous and uncaring, sick puppy.
The Palestinians didn't leave their land they fled the country (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus)!!!
Using your logic would be to say that the Jews wanted to be killed since they walked on their own volition into the death chambers.
No, the Palestinians FLED from the murderous hordes of Zionist who raped, killed and pillaged their villages.
It's commonly known as al Nakba

"New Historians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians)" have presented a viewpoint suggesting around half of the Palestinians of the exodus were purposely expelled by Israeli army, though this was not an organized policy.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-11">[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Nakba#cite_note-11)</sup><sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-B._Morris.2C_p._98-114_12-0">[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Nakba#cite_note-B._Morris.2C_p._98-114-12)</sup> However, Walid Khalidi and other Palestinian historians, supported by Ilan Pappe, defend the thesis that the expulsions formed part of a deliberate plan.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-13">[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Nakba#cite_note-13)</sup>
The Palestinians living there now are direct descendants of people living in the area for centuries

Please stop flaunting your ignorance

Melodymama

01-23-2009, 11:09 AM

Well, I think I have learned as much about Gaza as I care to from this thread. And I have again been wondering what the term "concious community" means; to Barry and to others on this listing. My bank account just paid again for my enjoyment of this for the year, and I am wondering if it is how I want to spend my money and time.

Consciousness is not just education for the mind. Consciousness, as I understand it in this new age of enlightenment, integrates the emotional and spiritual (not necessarily religious) wisdom with the intellectual so that we listen more calmly to each other, and respond respectfully. Then there is not need for blame and names and brightly colored letters. To me it seems several individuals on this board relish in the chance to strut their own personal discontent in a way that spews it all over everyone. When emotion gets involved with content, the unconscious is rearing it's ugly head. This thread is just another one that begins to sound like our own battlefield of hateful words.

I am curious and love information. I turn off when I see or hear diatribe or intellectual vomiting of redundant and escalating demeaning of others. I guess it is the sign to me that those involved are not evolved in the art of conscious discussion. So, it may be that while you are fighting with each other, the rest of us ignore you, and I wonder why you go on and on and on. We here cannot solve the Gaza conflict, and we can work on solving our own need to turn any discussion into conflict.

Laura

artfulme

01-23-2009, 11:38 AM

It would be marvelous if you used facts...instead of DECEIT!

Item: You say the "palestinians FLED the NEWLY FORMED NATION of "ISRAEL"...WHY?

Answer: The Arab/palestinian GRAND MUFTI ORDERED ALL ARABS TO LEAVE THIS NATION NEWLY CREATED BY THE UNITED NATIONS......BECAUSE THE GRAND MUFTI PROMISED TO DRAWN ALL ISRAELIS IN THE MEDITERRANEAN OR OTHERWISE SLAUGHTER THEM ALL.

And, THEN, with the JEWS all murdered (as the Arabs had done periodically to Jewish settlements 1800s-through the WWII, causing the death of tens of thousands of peacefully living JEWSthere), the Arabs could gain the place again!

So...you have no FACTS. Only screaming, deceitful antisemitic screeds.

And...show me the articles/reports of the alleged rapes and murders of Arabs then in the fight for their REFUGE from 2000 years of "love" from their Muslim/Christian slaughterers, confiscations, and rapes. Only 50,000,000 with how many more from you antisemites?

The FACTS are: The Grand Muftiu's plan/promise began. As soon as Isael was named a country by the UN, Arabs launched a war against the JEWS there; the greatly outnunbered Israelis beat back the slaughter-intending forces and won their country.

You can look up my FACTS, above. Nowhere--in perceptive inquiry by investigations--is there any record of the scourging you attribute to the JEWS. Just more antisemitic propaganda that you antisdemites lOVE to quote from sources only connected to the murderously intending Arabs.

Perhaps it makes you more comfortable in your antisemitism to make up such base canards. After all, it would somehow "excuse" you and your forebears from the ugly truth of your 2000 year murdering/genocidic antisemitism...and continuing!

NEVER AGAIN!!
Try facts for a BIG change!

MsTerry

01-23-2009, 11:42 AM

Even though I agree with the sentiment in your statement, I also find it condescending to tell people that " those involved are not evolved in the art of conscious discussion."
Basically you are telling us that you are evolved and conscious and others are not.
I don't think it is up to you or others to judge another person's "consciousness".
Who is making you read anything? It should be your "consciousness" not your judgement that leads you.

Well, I think I have learned as much about Gaza as I care to from this thread. And I have again been wondering what the term "concious community" means; to Barry and to others on this listing. My bank account just paid again for my enjoyment of this for the year, and I am wondering if it is how I want to spend my money and time.

Consciousness is not just education for the mind. Consciousness, as I understand it in this new age of enlightenment, integrates the emotional and spiritual (not necessarily religious) wisdom with the intellectual so that we listen more calmly to each other, and respond respectfully. Then there is not need for blame and names and brightly colored letters. To me it seems several individuals on this board relish in the chance to strut their own personal discontent in a way that spews it all over everyone. When emotion gets involved with content, the unconscious is rearing it's ugly head. This thread is just another one that begins to sound like our own battlefield of hateful words.

I am curious and love information. I turn off when I see or hear diatribe or intellectual vomiting of redundant and escalating demeaning of others. I guess it is the sign to me that those involved are not evolved in the art of conscious discussion. So, it may be that while you are fighting with each other, the rest of us ignore you, and I wonder why you go on and on and on. We here cannot solve the Gaza conflict, and we can work on solving our own need to turn any discussion into conflict.

Laura

toddwquigley

01-23-2009, 12:37 PM

Gosh Terry,

I think she's saying that you have turned the discussion boards into your own personal blog space where you fight everyone that doesn't agree with you on fanciful technicalities, and she's tired of financially supporting your lifestyle.

You have got to realize the the vast majority of the people even many wackos don't subscribe to your Palestinians as victims role, because we know better.

Oh, and thank you Art for correcting her latest Palestinian fantasy with facts: Nobody forced the Palestinians to leave, they left because they didn't want to live in a Jewish State.

By the way, Terry, your newest post on Gaza shows an admission that your prior post where you claimed that the modern Palestinians were related to the pre 1948 Palestinians was completely wrong exactly as I said.

Now if you want to argue that the Arab agitators and terrorists calling themselves "Palestinians" who moved into Israel during and after the Arab-Israeli War and have since bred and expanded their numbers to almost 5 million in order to try and annex the West Bank away from Israel should be allowed to terrorize the Israeli population because you don't like Jews as much as they do, well that's fine, be an anti-Semite. Lily and a few other anti-semite wackos will certainly jump to you rescue.

Maybe I should I say anti-Jew, or anti-Israeli? I don't want to be again accused of using the wrong word (that everyone else including all the major news media uses to describe those who don't like the thought of a Jewish State, or the thought of Jews being allowed to breath the same air as the wonderful Arab terrorists).

So please, go ahead and post more of your deluded and untruthful anti-Jewish/anti-Israel facist diatribe, each time you post, you just dig a deeper hole for your evil cause, while exposing more and more of your and their sociopathic, xenophobic, racism and anger for all to see. Let's shine the light of truth on the whole situation, and expose it for all to see, because there are still some deluded people out there that think as you do, and have not yet seen a truthful argument.

I find it sad that those wackos supporting the "Palestinian" terrorists, are almost all female, don't you women know how virtually all Arabs treat their women? Somewhere around dogs and goats, but never as high as a camel or horse.

Go ahead, keep on justifying and supporting the terrorism against Israeli civilians by racist, genocidal people who subjurgate their women and treat them like cattle, it's really making you look like informed, intelligent and forward thinking people...

MsTerry

01-23-2009, 01:11 PM

Dear Hatefulme,
It would be nice if for once you can back your ideas with facts.
Follow your own advise!

Try facts for a BIG change!

Hotspring 44

01-23-2009, 01:52 PM

Braggi

01-23-2009, 02:24 PM

Hotspring and all, please learn how to use the quote (above) tools. Waccobb.net has an easy to use system that allows each quote to be identified so we know who's saying what, and please please please stop it with the colored text. It's just so horrible to read that nobody is.

-Jeff

Hotspring 44

01-23-2009, 03:16 PM

MsTerry

01-23-2009, 05:28 PM

quote from sources only connected to the murderously intending Arabs.!
Finally you are understanding something;
JEWS ARE ARABS PRACTICING THE JEWISH RELIGION
and yes that was my source=> "New Historians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians)", check it out before you start jerking off again.
What is your source? Rush Bimbaugh?

MsTerry

01-23-2009, 05:43 PM

You don't stop to amaze me with your lack of facts.

You have got to realize the the vast majority of the people even many wackos don't subscribe to your Palestinians as victims role, because we know better..
What source are you quoting this time?
Did you take a poll?

artfulme

01-23-2009, 06:02 PM

I see.

So...the Jews also were "Arabs' who spent mostly all of their time not building a "country" or "nation"...until Mohammed came along in the 300s CE.

The Jews--bless their hearts--formed their religion and nationhood about 5700 years ago in that land, succeeding the ancients with whom--like all people reaching for freedom/not slavery--wars were conducted.
In truth it's the present day Arabs who "replaced" also their fomer "rulers" by fleeing into the desert there to become happy wanderers in tents never stopping long enough to form a society. The Bedoins (SP)are the remaining desert wanderers.

After Mohammed a society based on Islam was generated.

Take note: Islam is the only religion--to my knowledge-- that advocates killing any peoples who do not convert or acceopt Islam.

Kinda like the Christians-in-action vs, the Jews for 2000 years...and now supported by ther New Lefty Fascists!

toddwquigley

01-23-2009, 06:40 PM

You don't stop to amaze me with your lack of facts.

What source are you quoting this time?
Did you take a poll?

Here's my facts:

WASHINGTON - According to an annual poll conducted by Gallup, 59 percent of Americans support Israel, the highest percent of support since the first Gulf War. The support for the Palestinians, however, has decreased to 15 percent following Hamas' victory in the Palestinian parliamentary elections.

Now, what was that BS about lack of facts and what are you amazed about?

Want more, there are dozens of polls done by neutral sources throughout the World (except for Islamic countries of course) that all show that there is much, much more support for Israel than there is for Palestine. The only place you are going to find support for the Palestinians is in Arab communities, and other missguided liberal sites.

Please, next time try using your head before you open your mouth, you are starting to look not only desperate, but pretty silly when everything you post is disproved with facts.

If you want to talk about things that amaze, I'm amazed at how lacking in any sort of reality your views about this situation are. It seems to be one big emotional bundle for you, and your unfactual and illogical posts show it.

You used to post interesting things, but it seems that you are now obsessed with trying to prove against overwhelming evidence and overwhelming opinion that the Palestinians are in the right, and you are losing the battle in a big obvious way because they are not. You are not going to find any neutral sources that prove your point of view on this subject, because they don't exist.

MsTerry

01-23-2009, 06:40 PM

...until Mohammed came along in the 300s CE.

LMAO
Are you trying to convince us, that with out a doubt, YOU know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about history?

MsTerry

01-23-2009, 06:48 PM

Here's my facts:

Your info is lacking
a) the source
b) the date it was written
c) the author

Besides that, you said that "the vast majority of the people ".
Maybe you meant to say American and Israeli people, unless you consider everybody outside US to be less than human.

toddwquigley

01-23-2009, 07:00 PM

Finally you are understanding something;
JEWS ARE ARABS PRACTICING THE JEWISH RELIGION
and yes that was my source=> "New Historians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians)", check it out before you start jerking off again.
What is your source? Rush Bimbaugh?

FYI: Full-blooded Jews are genetically different from the many different genetic groups of Arabs, because these peoples split roughly 4,000 years ago. Yes, at one point in the ancient past they were related, but then if you go back a little bit further, everybody in what we call the Middle East was related.

More FYI: Less than 1/4 of the so-called "Palestinians" living within Israel, are genetically related to the people (Real Palestinians) that lived there pre 1948, the rest are related to other various tribes and groups that never lived in the area.

My point here is thus: The Jews are the same Jews that have lived in this part of the Levant for the last several thousand years, while most of the non-Jews (modern Palestinians) have no relation to the Palestinians of yore.

In other words: The Jews have a right to be there, and the large majority of the "Palestinians" don't.

Yes, I will dig up the article for you, but this is fairly common knowledge as some of the very first peoples to use DNA testing were the Jews because they were trying to establish this very point (you will see this used more and more in the near future as the World goes into recession for obvious reasons).

toddwquigley

01-23-2009, 07:09 PM

Your info is lacking
a) the source
b) the date it was written
c) the author

Besides that, you said that "the vast majority of the people ".
Maybe you meant to say American and Israeli people, unless you consider everybody outside US to be less than human.

Go here: https://www.palestine-pmc.com/pdf/14-2-06a.pdf

And stop playing word games and games of semantics, it makes you look as desperate as you are

MsTerry

01-23-2009, 07:42 PM

Yes, I will dig up the article for you,.

Don't bother here it is;
"More than 50% of the Jewish People today are intermarrying, in some places it is as high as 90%.....Intermarriage has created a silent holocaust in this generation..." [3] (https://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/IntermarriageWhyNot.htm)

MsTerry

01-23-2009, 07:44 PM

Go here: https://www.palestine-pmc.com/pdf/14-2-06a.pdf

And stop playing word games and games of semantics, it makes you look as desperate as you are
ROFLMFAO
that story is THREE YEARS old!!!!!!
LMAO

toddwquigley

01-23-2009, 09:19 PM

ROFLMFAO
that story is THREE YEARS old!!!!!!
LMAO

oops, I pasted the wrong one, here is the 2008 poll: Americans Lean Toward Israel - Forbes.com (https://www.forbes.com/opinions/2009/01/03/israel-arab-palestine-oped-cx_kb_0105bowman.html)

Yep, keep laughing. At yourself.

Now ILMAO!!

MsTerry

01-23-2009, 09:53 PM

oops, I pasted the wrong one,
Yes you keep on posting the wrong ones, and still not prove a point.

Seventy-one percent of respondents to a 2008 Gallup poll held a favorable opinion of Israel,
Do you have anymore non-dated and irrelevant polls???
LMAO
What does your answer have to do with Israel's murder of civilians?
Only this is relevant;
Israpundit » Blog Archive » UN to prosecute IDF officers for war crimes (https://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=8077)
Israel expects army officers to be prosecuted for war crimes (https://www.israelnews.net/story/454694)

Melodymama

01-23-2009, 10:24 PM

Terry and Todd, rent a room, you guys are enjoying each other and your endless yada yada yada way too much. It is interesting to me howentrancing arguing can become. It is as if the rush of defending by demeaning is a form of mutual flirting on some level. And the payoff of such interaction is??? Oh, sorry, too direct a question. Go on.....

toddwquigley

01-23-2009, 10:29 PM

ROFLMFAO
that story is THREE YEARS old!!!!!!
LMAO

I cut and paste from the wrong window, but here's the current one, nothing has changed since 2006...

Forbes.com
Americans Lean Toward Israel
<CITE>Karlyn Bowman</CITE>, 01.05.09, 12:01 AM EST
Public opinion and the Middle East.

Seventy-one percent of respondents to a 2008 Gallup poll held a favorable opinion of Israel, while only 14% had a similar opinion of the Palestinian Authority.

Now I'm done proving to you that your beloved terrorists are considered terrorists by far, far more than don't.

I'm tired of your little games of protocol and semantics because you don't have anything useful to say. Your approach shows your desperation, you are grasping at straws, desperately clinging to the smallest details in hopes of causing distraction from the truth that you are trying so hard to avoid.

Like I said, your posts used to be interesting on occasion, but now all you do is seek out any tiny detail, feverishly grasp onto it, and hold it to the light as though you have some great revelation, or some great truth, only to have it shot down for lack of reality yet again. It's pretty pathetic.

You have made your point clear: For whatever sick and twisted reasons, you are against the Jews and the Jewish State, and you support the Terrorists who try to destroy Israel and exterminate the Jews.

There's no logical reason for this thinking, so that leaves just illogical and emotional reasons. What is it, do you have Arab blood in your family, did you have family in the SS, or do you just hate Jews because you hate America? Whatever your illogical and fantasy based reasons, the result is the same, and I'm saddened to know that there are people right here in Sebastopol that have such a hate of Israel.

The difference between us extends further, while you evidently hate Israel for their very existence, I have no hate of Arabs and Muslims in general, just those that use terrorism as their tool to destroy people that they don't like.

I keep hoping for peace in Israel, but as long as there are people that think like you do, as long as people justify terrorism, as long as people wish to exterminate the Jews simply because they exist, I don't see it happening, I just see more people on both sides dying.

I just don't understand you people, you have had such an illrational hate of the Jews for thousands of years, it's such a bizarre and twisted mindset, that I guess I'll never understand it. I'll never be able to get into your minds, because they are such a sick and frightening place, that I refuse to go there.

and I'm not going to toss you anymore, it's time for you to sink.

Hotspring 44

01-23-2009, 10:30 PM

toddwquigley

01-23-2009, 10:47 PM

Hey Terry, thanks for the site, it just proves my point.

Did you read what you posted? Thanks for making my point and disproving yours, the author calls you a "useful idiot for a depraved death cult".

Thanks for the info, here's what you posted:

Those who claim the IDF also deliberately targets civilians don’t have to believe the official spokesman’s denials: they could speak to someone such as Colonel Richard Kemp, who commanded British Army campaigns in Afghanistan and Northern Ireland, and was most recently senior military adviser to the Cabinet Office. Kemp told me that “Hamas deploys suicide attackers including women and children, and rigs up schools and houses with booby-trap explosives. Its leaders knew as a matter of certainty this would lead to civilian casualties if there was a ground battle. Virtually every aspect of its operations is illegal under international humanitarian law – ‘war crimes’ in the emotive language usually reserved for the Israelis”.
Colonel Kemp points out that if the IDF had no regard for civilian lives it would never have leafleted and telephoned residents in Gaza, warning them when it was about to attack their area: after all, that also gives Hamas notice – hardly the act of an army devoted to military victory at all costs. Similarly, the IDF’s unilateral commitment to a daily three-hour ceasefire to permit the evacuation (to Israel) of casualties, and for the passage of “humanitarian aid”, also allows Hamas time to regroup and redeploy for future attacks.
Of course, none of these arguments can penetrate the brains of the superannuated Stalinists, vicarious jihadists and attention-seeking actors and pop stars who think it’s cool to go on marches chanting, “We are all Hamas now”. Even if these luvvies might not be aware that on Christmas Eve Hamas legalised crucifixion as a punishment for those who “weaken the spirit of the people”, and have been shooting such political enemies in the head when they find them in hospitals conveniently injured by Israeli bombing raids, they still deserve to be dismissed as useful idiots for a depraved death cult.
This is not exactly the classical doctrine of deterrence: it’s supposed to stop people attacking you in the first place. Yet the Israeli attack on Gaza is part of the same policy of delayed deterrence. Paradoxical though this might seem, it is also essential if the process towards an independent Palestinian state is to have a future. For until the people of Israel believe that such a state – including the heights of the West Bank, which overlook Tel Aviv – is not a threat to their own existence, they will never support a government which abandons those territories, won in an earlier war of self-defence.

([email protected])
([email protected])As far as the poll not being relevent, stop making stuff up. It is perfectly relevent: The vast majority of those polled believe that the Palestinians are the trouble makers and the Israeli's are in the right, you are among the very small minority.

Hotspring 44

01-23-2009, 10:48 PM

5) BE RESPECTFUL: You are welcome to disagree with someone but you may not attack them in any way, either publicly or privately. This includes slurs against population groups. Also, any private email should remain private unless you have the author's permission to post it. If you receive inappropriate private email in response to your post on WaccoBB.net, please Contact Us ([email protected]).

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CSH%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><style>  </style> toddwquigley I'm very sorry about that mistake.

To answer your first question, apparently not well enough!
<o:p> </o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>
I don't know how to use the quote tool. I misquoted!
<o:p> </o:p>
My apologies once again I am truly sorry about that.

<o:p> </o:p>
So if somebody would be so kind as to post that link on how the wackobb quote tool works or at least where it is I would appreciate it.

<o:p> </o:p>
I in principle, basically I agree with you about, there is nothing wrong with generalizations.
<o:p> </o:p>
Generalizations help get the ball rolling when things get stalled. I think that is a good thing generally.
<o:p> </o:p>
However, generalizations based on cherry picking facts may end up being completely off the mark.
<o:p> </o:p>
Generalizations’, metaphorically speaking can be kind of like a kitchen knife. You can use knife to cut a stake or slice vegetables, or it could be used to cut a person.
<o:p> </o:p>
So generalizations are not always a good thing it depends upon the context.
In the not so distant past, a lot of innocent people got put into American prisons, because they were dark skinned. essentially racist, light skinned people made a generalization whereas they literally stated African-Americans all look alike... for example; Actually, they did not say African-Americans they said something far worse I'm not going to write here!
<o:p> </o:p>
It appears as though I along with a plethora of other people were pigeonholed by way of, generalizations by someone that wrote the inflammatory name-calling like stuff continually and repeatedly in this thread.
<o:p> </o:p>
I don't mind too terribly much in a heated conversation being called names, every now and then because for one thing it keeps me on my toes so to speak.
<o:p> </o:p>
And another reason, it helps relieve the tension in the person doing the name-calling so things are less likely to get worse later on.
<o:p> </o:p>
So now out of respect to toddwquigley specifically, and all others reading my postings in this thread topic, [that includes self-respect on my part] this is either and most likely my last post on this topic or I'm going to go and carefully re--read the posts before I post anything else here on this thread.
<o:p> </o:p>
Toddwquigley; once again, my apologies for posting your name and mistakenly using it in an assertive rebuttal and you feeling attacked by me because of it. By the way using the word attack is kind of strong, but that's okay.

Re: The name-calling that's a two-way street.
If you, I or anybody else can't take it we probably shouldn't put it out.
I can take it, but I'm not really into putting it out that much per se.
So I'm apologizing, because I probably in essence did minimally approximate name-calling in my post [and maybe actually did?] in a rebuttal.
<o:p> </o:p>
Rhetorical name-calling does have its place.
I have witnessed within this thread postings by somebody whom I thought in large part was Toddwquigley but now I'm going to have to re-read to clarify to myself which posts are the hyper-bull name-calling like posts that infer things using names that they almost certainly know are particularly inflammatory to the majority of people using this web site and thread.
<o:p> </o:p>
Getting somebody emotionally upset is a very effective tactic in throwing somebody off topic and into a spin.

Re: What you said about the tactic of pointing out name-calling.
Tacic, technique, whatever you want to call it. so what? it's kind of like when somebody keeps on bludgeoning and going on and on with it there's nothing wrong with pointing it out either!

<o:p> </o:p>
In regards to: About insisting one's feelings are facts. I know the fact is that the feelings exist in the first place the feelings themselves are not facts.
<o:p> </o:p>
Feelings are one of those strange things where they are facts but they are not factual.
<o:p> </o:p>
People’s feelings about facts that they are currently witnessing, and experiencing are sometimes blinders to other things that are going on right in front of them.
<o:p> </o:p>
Emotions have a direct effect on the thinking process. Examples; when somebody gets emotionally upset; then somebody else may for example tell them, get in control of your emotions. But I say; you could also tell that same person in the same circumstance, get in control of your critical thinking thought process!
<o:p> </o:p>
About what you said regarding women doing that more than men;
Are there any scientific journals or published studies to back that up you could point to?
If you could post a link I and others too sure would appreciate it.
At this point, I think if you don't, come up with the info; you may have really stepped in it, on that one
I basically agree and concur with you in principle about [the] tactic is to point out the semantics and word choice when most people understand perfectly well what the person meant.
<o:p> </o:p>
Actually that used to be one of my pet peeves; not doing it but getting upset when it gets done to me, family or friends.
Numerous bad experiences with belligerent drunks are the main reason for that.
That was years ago now I'm mostly over that.
<o:p> </o:p>
Emotions are great… [Rhetorical] > got emotions? {Parity on the, dairy industry’s got milk? Commercial.}.

Re: Attacking someone over how they said something instead of what they said is sidetracking and trolling, and really doesn't contribute anything of value to the discussion.
Seems to be repetitive, but I basically agree with that.
<o:p> </o:p>
If you believe I did attack [you] if it is indeed me that you are referring to using that word attack in that sentence.
How someone says something in a particular crowd may mean the difference between making a real change for the better in a real difficult situation and the Internet equivalent of sputum in the face.
I think I know what you're referring to and it was actually constructive criticism, not an attack!
But when somebody is emotionally involved with a situation constructive criticism is sometimes seen as a potentially deadly attack or somehow siding with the enemy unfortunately.
<o:p> </o:p>
Also, some people say convoluted things, knowing that it could mean more than one thing so that later on, they can cherry pick what it means depending upon how the argument goes in the future. I call that a semantic minefield.
<o:p> </o:p>
Because I don't know or even care much who it was and the fact that I'm burned out on this thread.
Therefore I'm probably not going to bother reading up on it and I'm very unlikely to be pointing fingers at anybody in regards to this thread in the future.
<o:p> </o:p>
However, that being said; I definitely see a semantic minefield in this thread so I was merely pointing that out.
I hope that clarifies things in this thread as far as postings are concerned because I'm done with this one. by-by to any potential future posts from me in this thread.

Hey Hotspring, are you paying attention to what you are reading and by whom it is written?

As per your last posting:

I didn't write that, Art did, so don't involve my name with it. If you want to go after me for my pieces that's fine, but make sure they are mine before you attack me.
Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with generalizations. They are called that because they represent the majority (IE: That which is generally true), which for the sake of argument, is generally enough. Many of us have found that when we use specifics, we wind up playing verbal games of tiny details and semantics with wackos. Because they don't have a good rebuttal, they instead attack the little details and protocol of what was said so they can call it a victory.

Another favorite tactic is to point out name calling, and other obvious things that have no bearing on the argument and then make an issue of them.

Another tactic is to insist that one's feelings are facts, because one says they are. Not to be sexist in any way, but women do this a lot more then men.

Related to that is the old trick that liberals love so much, which is to spin things 180 degrees, and insist that they are so because one said so regardless of evidence to the contrary.

Yet another tactic is to point out the semantics and word choice when most people understand perfectly well what the person meant, in order to cause distraction from the actual issues and claim some tiny victory. This is a favorite attack tactic of MsTerry, along with the two preceeding tactics.

Attacking someone over how they said something instead of what they said is sidetracking and trolling, and really doesn't contribute anything of value to the discussion.

Braggi

01-23-2009, 10:58 PM

... I don't know how to use the quote tool. I misquoted! ...

Now, see, you did get the original post at the end of yours. That's good. Now if it was at the beginning of your post your response might have made more sense, but it's a good first step.

Here's the other quote tool. It's up there in the tool bar above the "Reply to Thread" dialog you always use to write to a thread.

Here's a link to a mini-tutorial Barry wrote a while back. Maybe his explanation will work better than mine: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb-net-faq/39664-how-use-quotes.html

BTW, I think MsTerry a week to figure it out, so don't feel bad.

-Jeff

MsTerry

01-23-2009, 11:57 PM

Now,now, now Jeff
That link was to show me how to put someone name to their quote, not HOW to use the quote button,
like this

BTW, I think a week to figure it out, so don't feel bad.

-Jeff
or this

BTW, I think it took me a week to figure it out, so don't feel bad.

-Jeff

MsTerry

01-24-2009, 12:04 AM

I need someone with brains, not a parrot.

Terry and Todd, rent a room,

MsTerry

01-24-2009, 12:07 AM

Hey Terry, thanks for the site, it just proves my point.

Yes, your point is that the IDF lies to cover up their terror.

A major incident under investigation is the bombing of a UN-run school which killed 43 people, most of them children who had been directed to the school for shelter. The Israeli army claimed it was responding to rocket fire coming from within the school grounds. The army produced footage to validate its claims after the UN denied there were militants operating within the school compound. The Israeli army, when challenged, admitted the footage was fifteen months old and in that case the school had been evacuated before being taken over by militants.

This is what you support, and you use the same kind of tactics.

Sara S

02-02-2009, 08:38 AM

From delancyplace.com:

In today's excerpt-in the late 1940s, the
possible establishment of a Jewish state in
Palestine quickly became the most intractable
foreign policy issue for President Harry
Truman, for legendary U.S. Secretary of State
Dean Acheson and for the United States and
United Nations diplomatic corps. The
immediate issue involved whether support a
plan to partition Palestine between the Arabs
and Jews, which would lead to a Jewish state, or
endorse the British plan to hand their
mandate over Palestine to the United
Nations:

"Acheson
was never sympathetic to the establishment of
a Jewish state, fearing that the
mass emigration of Jews from postwar Europe
into Palestine would lead to protracted war
with the Arabs.

"Acheson ... believed that an Arab-Israeli
conflict would then threaten American
interests in the region and could
lead to an American military involvement
there. ...
Nonetheless, ...Truman was becoming committed
to the creation of a Jewish state in
Palestine. In the wake of the Nazi
persecutions of Jews, the moral issue was
paramount
for the president. ...

"In
1946, when Truman met with America's Middle
East diplomats who warned him
of the threat to American prestige because of
statements indicating sympathy
with Zionism, Truman responded: 'I am sorry,
gentlemen, but I have to answer
to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for
the success of Zionism; I do not
have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my
constituents.'

"As undersecretary of state, Acheson had to
contend with the Department's almost
overwhelming opposition to American support
for a Jewish state, [yet] ... on Yom Kippur,
October 4, 1946, Truman declared his ...
support for 'the creation of a viable Jewish
state
in control of its own immigration and
economic policies in an adequate area of
Palestine.' In effect, he supported the idea
of partition. Acheson ... helped him prepare
the statement. ...

"For Truman, what was most pressing was to
make sure
that the British let one hundred thousand
refugees emigrate to Palestine. ... Once
Israel was created in May
1948, Acheson came to believe that the
unstinting efforts of the UN mediator
Ralph Bunche to dampen the conflict through
cease-fire and negotiations was
the only viable American policy. Soon after
he became secretary [of state] he offered
Bunche the job of heading the Middle East
desk as an assistant secretary;
Bunche, however, declined the invitation,
tired of struggling with unsolvable
problems. 'His most heartfelt wish,' Acheson
reported, 'was for relief from
them, not deeper involvement.'

"Acheson fully sympathized with him,
commenting in later years, 'How often I
was to remember and echo his wish.' "

James Chace, Acheson, Simon and
Schuster, Copyright 1998 by James Chace, pp.
131-132.

------------------------