https://static.squidoo.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/lens1447901_cheat4.jpgIt's a common platitude that men are dogs. It's common because mens' fidelity toward the women they love is so lacking so often. Of course many women have the same issues. But I can't see that they experience and struggle with it near as often and deeply as do men. It perplexes me, and I hope you'll indulge me as I try to work it out a bit by writing about it.
A female friend of mine confided to me the other day that she had just broken off her relationship with the man she's been seeing exclusively for awhile. She had "86ed" him from her life, because she had "caught him red-handed" when he had broken a pledge he'd made to her that he wouldn't date or sleep with any women other than her. In her 40's, She was particularly upset with him because they'd been good friends ever since high school, but only fairly recently had become intimate. She was particularly upset that his deceit had "destroyed their long friendship".
Since she dumped him he's been begging her to take him back.
The way she presented it to me, and looked pleadingly at me, she obviously wanted some comment from me about it. After a brief deer-in-the-headlights moment, I had to admit to her that my first reaction was to relate to his behavior, and to feel bad for him. I then tried to reassure her that their friendship would most likely heal in the long run. I tried to explain that his infidelity to her would be a learning experience for him.
I'm happily married. I love and respect my mate more than any other person on Earth. To hurt her by deceit would be, I'm sure, to fatally damage myself. I'm warm in the realization after several years of her demonstrated patience with me, that she feels the same way.
I was strongly affected by my friend's frustration and sadness. Couldn't sleep that night, so I thought about it. Partly I was affected by my own guilt. I've harmed more than one woman in my life because of my infidelity. Along the way I was lucky enough to learn the life lesson that I am only as reputable as the fidelity I practice.
According to adulterytips.com (infidelity has its own websites), "sexual behavior studies over the past 50 years have produced diverse estimates of male infidelity, ranging from 25 percent to 75 percent of men cheating on their wives." That's a wide variance, which indicates that quite possibly 1 in 2 men cheat on their mate at some time or other. From my experiences being a man and talking with men, I suspect it's closer to 75% over a lifetime, than 25%.
My conclusion, after a mostly-sleepless night, is that men are victims almost as much as their mates. This is not intended as an excuse. But as a male, I can't truly understand a female's perspective on anything, let alone infidelity. It's true that men and women are fundamentally programmed differently. In the same way, I don't expect that women can truly understand me when I say that I am like virtually every other male, and have always been strongly compelled towards infidelity, whenever the opportunity has presented itself. I've learned by negative reinforcement more than anything else, to sublimate and ignore that compulsion. But it's not easy; the compulsion is instantaneous, very strong, and is at a sub-concious level. It's a knee-jerk response to any attractive woman I encounter. It's no less powerful a response now, than it was in my youth. I've just learned some valuable survival skills over the years.
I'm going to find the female friend I mentioned, and try to better explain how it is with men. I hope she understands; I wish I understood it better myself.
Zeno Swijtink
12-16-2008, 09:58 AM
I'm going to find the female friend I mentioned, and try to better explain how it is with men. I hope she understands; I wish I understood it better myself.
You could tell her that even Gibbons Really Swing!!
Science 1 May 1998:
Vol. 280. no. 5364, pp. 677 - 678
DOI: 10.1126/science.280.5364.677b
RESEARCH NEWS
PRIMATOLOGY:
'Monogamous' Gibbons Really Swing
Ann Gibbons
SALT LAKE CITY--The sex and social lives of gibbons were long thought to be about as exciting as those of June and Ward Cleaver. Like a 1950s-style nuclear family, gibbons were thought to live in stable groups of five or six, in which a mom and pop mate for life and raise their offspring. Family comes first, and the only excitement comes when the group spars with the neighbors. "The impression was they were monogamous and not very social with other groups--therefore, that they were fairly boring," says Thad Bartlett, an anthropologist at Dickinson College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
But in a report here last month at the annual meeting of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists, Bartlett showed that gibbons are anything but boring. He and others have found that although many gibbon pairs mate for years on end, like human families of the '90s they have plenty of drama--infidelity, divorce, abandonment, and step-children from other unions, as well as much socializing and kinship among members of different groups. The findings show how important it is to explore what "monogamy" means for primates, and underscore the social complexity of these intelligent animals. "Gibbons really have been the prototype for monogamous primates," says Phyllis Dolhinow, a biological anthropologist at the University of California, Berkeley. "It turns out things just aren't as tightly structured as had been assumed."
The new view of gibbon family life is emerging from a fresh crop of long-term studies. For example, Bartlett, who presented his findings at the meeting, tracked two groups of white-handed gibbons (Hylobates lar) intensively for a year in the Khao Yai National Park in a seasonal tropical forest north of Bangkok, Thailand. These apes have been studied off and on for 15 years by ecologist Warren Brockelman at Mahidol University in Bangkok and his colleagues, so they are accustomed to humans; Bartlett thinks that this allowed the animals to relax and exhibit social behaviors not seen before.
Researchers had thought that gibbon families, although stable, were always territorial and hostile to neighbors, but the Thai gibbon families socialized with one another. In fact, one group spent 25% of its encounters with three other groups in "affiliative," or friendly, encounters, where the juveniles played and groomed each other. Most surprising, one adult male groomed and played with juveniles from another group. When Bartlett checked the long-term records on the groups, he realized that the friendly adult was an uncle of the neighboring juveniles, implying that the male had switched groups. "Their social relationships are a lot more complex than we'd assumed," says Bartlett. "They are migrating into groups that are not very far away, and there's a complex awareness of who is in the neighborhood."
This sociability also extended to mating habits. One young male left his group to move in with neighbors, where he began singing the characteristic mating duet with the adult female; he eventually supplanted her older male companion. This backs up work by primatologist Ryne Palombit of the University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, who recently studied gibbons at the Ketambe Research Station in Sumatra, Indonesia, for 6 years. He saw one female leave her group to join a newly widowed male, where she stayed for several months, mating with him and several other males before returning to her original mate. "All the textbooks say you have a male and female who are monogamous," says Palombit. "What we saw is that there may be a male and female, his brother, her sister, her daughter, his son. It's just very complicated, and the rigid nuclear family model is insufficient."
Instead, a new model is emerging of a "non-nuclear" family, where mates sometimes come and go, and the offspring from different unions grow up together. At least for gibbons, it seems that monogamy can be a lot more interesting than humans ever imagined.
MsTerry
12-16-2008, 10:20 AM
I'm not sure if this is about the difference between men and women, or the ability to trust another human being's promise.
[She had "86ed" him from her life, because she had "caught him red-handed" when he had broken a pledge he'd made to her that he wouldn't date or sleep with any women other than her.
Gary Jensen
12-16-2008, 10:24 AM
Well, I'd like to start by pointing out an important observation. You seem to be making a huge assumption that 'fidelity' (whatever that means) is the only way, a lot like the attitude of the christians' 'The Way' (their way is the only way).
My wife and I are polyamorous. She had a lover for almost a whole year and would spend most weekends with him at his house. When she hit lows in her relationship I would console her and give her advice on how to improve her relationship with her lover.
On one occasion, I went into the room in our house where my wife and her beau spent the night together to clean up after them. They had left his used condom full of his semen, which I had to pick up and throw away. At first, I was disgusted but now I masturbate to that memory.
I think that you and your friends need to lighten up on your obsession about F-I-D-E-L-I-T-Y ! And stop making it such a big deal, because it isn't. What's the point, anyway? Can you answer that?
People would expand the beauty of their life experience if they gifted each other with the true love of trust and tolerance and support, reveling in each others' sexual and emotional freedom. We would all enrich our lives a hundred fold with more lovers and more acceptance. Being friends with your partner's or spouse's lovers is a very beautiful world to live in.
Gary
https://static.squidoo.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/lens1447901_cheat4.jpgIt's a common platitude that men are dogs. It's common because mens' fidelity toward the women they love is so lacking so often. Of course many women have the same issues. But I can't see that they experience and struggle with it near as often and deeply as do men. It perplexes me, and I hope you'll indulge me as I try to work it out a bit by writing about it.
A female friend of mine confided to me the other day that she had just broken off her relationship with the man she's been seeing exclusively for awhile. She had "86ed" him from her life, because she had "caught him red-handed" when he had broken a pledge he'd made to her that he wouldn't date or sleep with any women other than her. In her 40's, She was particularly upset with him because they'd been good friends ever since high school, but only fairly recently had become intimate. She was particularly upset that his deceit had "destroyed their long friendship".
Since she dumped him he's been begging her to take him back.
The way she presented it to me, and looked pleadingly at me, she obviously wanted some comment from me about it. After a brief deer-in-the-headlights moment, I had to admit to her that my first reaction was to relate to his behavior, and to feel bad for him. I then tried to reassure her that their friendship would most likely heal in the long run. I tried to explain that his infidelity to her would be a learning experience for him.
I'm happily married. I love and respect my mate more than any other person on Earth. To hurt her by deceit would be, I'm sure, to fatally damage myself. I'm warm in the realization after several years of her demonstrated patience with me, that she feels the same way.
I was strongly affected by my friend's frustration and sadness. Couldn't sleep that night, so I thought about it. Partly I was affected by my own guilt. I've harmed more than one woman in my life because of my infidelity. Along the way I was lucky enough to learn the life lesson that I am only as reputable as the fidelity I practice.
According to adulterytips.com (infidelity has its own websites), "sexual behavior studies over the past 50 years have produced diverse estimates of male infidelity, ranging from 25 percent to 75 percent of men cheating on their wives." That's a wide variance, which indicates that quite possibly 1 in 2 men cheat on their mate at some time or other. From my experiences being a man and talking with men, I suspect it's closer to 75% over a lifetime, than 25%.
My conclusion, after a mostly-sleepless night, is that men are victims almost as much as their mates. This is not intended as an excuse. But as a male, I can't truly understand a female's perspective on anything, let alone infidelity. It's true that men and women are fundamentally programmed differently. In the same way, I don't expect that women can truly understand me when I say that I am like virtually every other male, and have always been strongly compelled towards infidelity, whenever the opportunity has presented itself. I've learned by negative reinforcement more than anything else, to sublimate and ignore that compulsion. But it's not easy; the compulsion is instantaneous, very strong, and is at a sub-concious level. It's a knee-jerk response to any attractive woman I encounter. It's no less powerful a response now, than it was in my youth. I've just learned some valuable survival skills over the years.
I'm going to find the female friend I mentioned, and try to better explain how it is with men. I hope she understands; I wish I understood it better myself.
fluteman
12-16-2008, 10:56 PM
Tars,
I enjoyed reading your very honest and thoughtful post. When I have more time I will type a reply, but for the moment, I'd like to say to the other members in general - could we please keep this discussion on track? And maybe keep the common thread-bomb about polyamory for another discussion? :wink:
Sabrina
12-17-2008, 12:39 PM
someone had also just sent me the following article about a month or so ago which relates to this. Here goes:
<style> .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { font-size: 10pt; font-family:Verdana } </style>The Truth About Why Men Cheat<o:p></o:p>
Feature from "Redbook" Magazine<o:p></o:p>
By Nicole Yorio
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Counselor M. Gary Neuman surveyed 200 cheating and noncheating husbands to get at the real reasons behind men's infidelity.<o:p></o:p>
What makes men cheat? Marriage counselor M. Gary Neuman dug through past research on male infidelity and found that most answers came from the wife's point of view. Wouldn't it make more sense to ask the guys? he thought. So for his new book, The Truth About Cheating, Neuman surveyed 200 cheating and noncheating husbands to get at the real reasons behind men's infidelity — including what cheating men say could have prevented them from straying. Here, some of his findings:
<o:p></o:p>
48% of men rated emotional dissatisfaction as the primary reason they cheated.<o:p></o:p>
So much for the myth that for men, cheating is all about sex: Only 8 percent of men said that sexual dissatisfaction was the main factor in their infidelity. "Our culture tells us that all men need to be happy is sex," Neuman says. "But men are emotionally driven beings too. They want their wives to show them that they're appreciated, and they want women to understand how hard they're trying to get things right." The problem is that men are less likely than women to express these feelings, so you won't always know when your guy is in need of a little affirmation. "Most men consider it unmanly to ask for a pat on the back, which is why their emotional needs are often overlooked," Neuman says. "But you can create a marital culture of appreciation and thoughtfulness — and once you set the tone, he's likely to match it."
<o:p></o:p>
66% of cheating men report feeling guilt during the affair.<o:p></o:p>
The implications are a little scary: It isn't just uncaring jerks who cheat. In fact, 68 percent of cheaters never dreamed they'd be unfaithful, and almost all of them wished they hadn't done it, Neuman says. Clearly, guilt isn't enough to stop a man from cheating. "Men are good at compartmentalizing feelings," Neuman explains. "They can hold on to their emotions and deal with them later." So even if your husband swears he would never cheat, don't assume it can't happen. It's important for both of you to take steps toward creating the marriage you want.
<o:p></o:p>
77% of cheating men have a good friend who cheated.<o:p></o:p>
Hanging around friends who stray makes cheating seem normal and legitimizes it as a possibility. The message he's subconsciously telling himself: My friend is a good guy who happens to be cheating on his wife. I guess even the best of us do it. You can't simply ban your husband from hanging out with Mr. Wandering Eyes, Neuman says, but you can request that they spend their time together in an environment that offers less temptation, like at a sporting event or a restaurant for lunch rather than at a bar or club. Another strategy: Build your social circle around happily married couples that share your values — it'll create an environment that supports marriage.
<o:p></o:p>
40% of cheating men met the other woman at work.<o:p></o:p>
"Oftentimes the woman he cheats with at the office is someone who praises him, looks up to him, and compliments his efforts," Neuman says. "That's another reason why it's so critical that he feel valued at home." Luckily, there's a clear warning sign that your husband is getting a little too cozy with a colleague: If he praises or mentions the name of a female coworker more than he would a male counterpart, your antennae should go up — and it's time for the two of you to set boundaries about what is and isn't okay at work, Neuman says. Is it acceptable for him to work late if it's only him and her? Can they travel together to conferences? Have dinners out to discuss a project? Ask him what he'd feel comfortable with you doing with a male colleague.
<o:p></o:p>
Only 12% of cheating men said their mistress was more physically attractive than their wife.<o:p></o:p>
In other words, a man doesn't stray because he thinks he'll get better sex with a better-looking body. "In most cases, he's cheating to fill an emotional void," Neuman says. "He feels a connection with the other woman, and sex comes along for the ride." If you're worried about infidelity, focus on making your relationship more loving and connected, not on getting your body just right or mastering new sexual positions. (But know that sex does matter — it's one of the key ways your guy expresses his love and feels close to you, so be sure to keep it a priority.)
<o:p></o:p>
Only 6% of cheating men had sex with a woman after meeting her that same day or night.<o:p></o:p>
Actually, 73 percent of men got to know the other woman for more than a month before they cheated. This means that you may have time to see the warning signs before infidelity occurs — you might even see it coming before he does. Keep an eye out for these common signals: He spends more time away from home, stops asking for sex, picks fights more frequently, or avoids your calls. Your gut reaction may be to confront him, but most men will deny even thinking about cheating — especially if nothing physical has occurred yet. Instead, Neuman suggests, take charge of what you can control — your own behavior — and take the lead in bringing your marriage to a better place. Don't hesitate to show your appreciation for him, prioritize time together, and initiate sex more. Give him a reason to keep you at the front of his mind, Neuman says. And be open about how you feel about what's going on between the two of you (again, without mentioning any third parties). Try, "I think we've started to lose something important in our marriage, and I don't want it to disappear." In the meantime, commit to keeping tabs on your relationship and doing what it takes to keep it working for you.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Originally published on September 09, 2008<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
https://static.squidoo.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/lens1447901_cheat4.jpgIt's a common platitude that men are dogs. It's common because mens' fidelity toward the women they love is so lacking so often. Of course many women have the same issues. But I can't see that they experience and struggle with it near as often and deeply as do men. It perplexes me, and I hope you'll indulge me as I try to work it out a bit by writing about it.
A female friend of mine confided to me the other day that she had just broken off her relationship with the man she's been seeing exclusively for awhile. She had "86ed" him from her life, because she had "caught him red-handed" when he had broken a pledge he'd made to her that he wouldn't date or sleep with any women other than her. In her 40's, She was particularly upset with him because they'd been good friends ever since high school, but only fairly recently had become intimate. She was particularly upset that his deceit had "destroyed their long friendship".
Since she dumped him he's been begging her to take him back.
The way she presented it to me, and looked pleadingly at me, she obviously wanted some comment from me about it. After a brief deer-in-the-headlights moment, I had to admit to her that my first reaction was to relate to his behavior, and to feel bad for him. I then tried to reassure her that their friendship would most likely heal in the long run. I tried to explain that his infidelity to her would be a learning experience for him.
I'm happily married. I love and respect my mate more than any other person on Earth. To hurt her by deceit would be, I'm sure, to fatally damage myself. I'm warm in the realization after several years of her demonstrated patience with me, that she feels the same way.
I was strongly affected by my friend's frustration and sadness. Couldn't sleep that night, so I thought about it. Partly I was affected by my own guilt. I've harmed more than one woman in my life because of my infidelity. Along the way I was lucky enough to learn the life lesson that I am only as reputable as the fidelity I practice.
According to adulterytips.com (infidelity has its own websites), "sexual behavior studies over the past 50 years have produced diverse estimates of male infidelity, ranging from 25 percent to 75 percent of men cheating on their wives." That's a wide variance, which indicates that quite possibly 1 in 2 men cheat on their mate at some time or other. From my experiences being a man and talking with men, I suspect it's closer to 75% over a lifetime, than 25%.
My conclusion, after a mostly-sleepless night, is that men are victims almost as much as their mates. This is not intended as an excuse. But as a male, I can't truly understand a female's perspective on anything, let alone infidelity. It's true that men and women are fundamentally programmed differently. In the same way, I don't expect that women can truly understand me when I say that I am like virtually every other male, and have always been strongly compelled towards infidelity, whenever the opportunity has presented itself. I've learned by negative reinforcement more than anything else, to sublimate and ignore that compulsion. But it's not easy; the compulsion is instantaneous, very strong, and is at a sub-concious level. It's a knee-jerk response to any attractive woman I encounter. It's no less powerful a response now, than it was in my youth. I've just learned some valuable survival skills over the years.
I'm going to find the female friend I mentioned, and try to better explain how it is with men. I hope she understands; I wish I understood it better myself.