Free Market Capitalism Replaced By?????? [Archive] - Page 2

toddwquigley

06-17-2009, 01:00 AM

Exclusive: The Truth About 'La Raza' <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
by Rep. Charlie Norwood (https://www.humanevents.com/search.php?author_name=Rep.%20Charlie+Norwood)<o:p></o:p>
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:date Month="4" Day="7" Year="2006">04/07/2006</st1:date> <o:p></o:p>
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The nation's television screens many days recently have been filled with scenes of huge crowds carrying the colorful green and red flag of <st1:country-region><st1:place>Mexico</st1:place></st1:country-region> viewers could well have thought it was a national holiday in <st1:City><st1:place>Mexico City</st1:place></st1:City>.

It was instead, downtown <st1:place><st1:City>Los Angeles</st1:City>, <st1:State>Calif.</st1:State></st1:place>, although the scene was recreated in numerous other cities around the country with substantial Mexican populations. Hordes of Mexican expatriates, many here illegally, were protesting the very <st1:country-region><st1:place>U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> immigration laws they were violating with impunity. They found it offensive and a violation of their rights that the <st1:country-region><st1:place>U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> dared to have immigration laws to begin with.

Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa mounted the podium, but any hopes that he would quiet the crowds and defend the law were soon dashed. Villaraigosa, himself, has spent a lifetime opposing <st1:country-region><st1:place>U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> immigration law. <o:p></o:p>

For law-abiding Americans without knowledge of the dark side of our current illegal immigration crisis, all this is unfathomable. For those who know the truth about the "La Raza" movement, these demonstrations were a prophecy fulfilled.

It is past time for all Americans to know what is at the root of this outrageous behavior, and the extent to which the nation is at risk because of "La Raza" -- The Race.

There are many immigrant groups joined in the overall "La Raza" movement. The most prominent and mainstream organization is the National Council de La Raza -- the Council of "The Race".

To most of the mainstream media, most members of Congress, and even many of their own members, the National Council of La Raza is no more than a Hispanic Rotary Club.

But the National Council of La Raza succeeded in raking in over $15.2 million in federal grants last year alone, of which $7.9 million was in U.S. Department of Education grants for Charter Schools, and undisclosed amounts were for get-out-the-vote efforts supporting La Raza political positions.

The Council of La Raza succeeded in having itself added to congressional hearings by Republican House and Senate leaders. And an anonymous senator even gave the Council of La Raza an extra $4 million in earmarked taxpayer money, supposedly for "housing reform," while La Raza continues to lobby the Senate for virtual open borders and amnesty for illegal aliens. <o:p></o:p>
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Radical 'Reconquista' Agenda

Behind the respectable front of the National Council of La Raza lies the real agenda of the La Raza movement, the agenda that led to those thousands of illegal immigrants in the streets of American cities, waving Mexican flags, brazenly defying our laws, and demanding concessions.

Key among the secondary organizations is the radical racist group Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan, or Chicano Student Movement of Aztlan (MEChA), one of the most anti-American groups in the country, which has permeated <st1:country-region><st1:place>U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> campuses since the 1960s, and continues its push to carve a racist nation out of the American West.

One of <st1:country-region><st1:place>America</st1:place></st1:country-region>'s greatest strengths has always been taking in immigrants from cultures around the world, and assimilating them into our country as Americans. By being citizens of the <st1:country-region><st1:place>U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> we are Americans first, and only, in our national loyalties.

This is totally opposed by MEChA for the hordes of illegal immigrants pouring across our borders, to whom they say:

"Chicano is our identity; it defines who we are as people. It rejects the notion that we...should assimilate into the Anglo-American melting pot...Aztlan was the legendary homeland of the Aztecas ... It became synonymous with the vast territories of the Southwest, brutally stolen from a Mexican people marginalized and betrayed by the hostile custodians of the Manifest Destiny." (Statement on University of Oregon MEChA Website, <st1:date Month="1" Day="3" Year="2006">Jan. 3, 2006</st1:date>)

MEChA isn't at all shy about their goals, or their views of other races. Their founding principles are contained in these words in "El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan" (The Spiritual Plan for Aztlan):

"In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal gringo invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlan from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny. ... Aztlan belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. ... We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of <st1:place>North America</st1:place>, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlan. For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada."

That closing two-sentence motto is chilling to everyone who values equal rights for all. It says: "For The Race everything. Outside The Race, nothing."

If these morally sickening MEChA quotes were coming from some fringe website, Americans could at least console themselves that it was just a small group of nuts behind it. Nearly every racial and ethnic group has some shady characters and positions in its past and some unbalanced individuals today claiming racial superiority and demanding separatism. But this is coming straight from the official MEChA sites at <st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Georgetown</st1:PlaceName><st1:PlaceType>University</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>, the <st1:place><st1:PlaceType>University</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName>Texas</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>, UCLA, <st1:place><st1:PlaceType>University</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName>Michigan</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>, <st1:place><st1:PlaceType>University</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName>Colorado</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>, <st1:place><st1:PlaceType>University</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName>Oregon</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>, and many other colleges and universities around the country.

MEChA was in fact reported to be one of the main organizers of those street demonstrations we witnessed over the past weeks. That helps explain why those hordes of illegal immigrants weren't asking for amnesty -- they were demanding an end to <st1:country-region><st1:place>U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> law, period. Unlike past waves of immigrants who sought to become responsible members of American society, these protesters reject American society altogether, because they have been taught that <st1:country-region><st1:place>America</st1:place></st1:country-region> rightfully belongs to them.

MEChA and the La Raza movement teach that <st1:State><st1:place>Colorado</st1:place></st1:State>, <st1:State><st1:place>California</st1:place></st1:State>, <st1:State><st1:place>Arizona</st1:place></st1:State>, <st1:State><st1:place>Texas</st1:place></st1:State>, <st1:State><st1:place>Utah</st1:place></st1:State>, <st1:State><st1:place>New Mexico</st1:place></st1:State>, <st1:State><st1:place>Oregon</st1:place></st1:State> and parts of <st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Washington</st1:PlaceName><st1:PlaceType>State</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> make up an area known as "Aztlan" -- a fictional ancestral homeland of the Aztecs before Europeans arrived in <st1:place>North America</st1:place>. As such, it belongs to the followers of MEChA. These are all areas <st1:country-region><st1:place>America</st1:place></st1:country-region> should surrender to "La Raza" once enough immigrants, legal or illegal, enter to claim a majority, as in <st1:City><st1:place>Los Angeles</st1:place></st1:City>. The current borders of the <st1:country-region><st1:place>United States</st1:place></st1:country-region> will simply be extinguished.

This plan is what is referred to as the "Reconquista" or reconquest, of the <st1:place>Western U.S.</st1:place>

But it won't end with territorial occupation and secession. The final plan for the La Raza movement includes the ethnic cleansing of Americans of European, African, and Asian descent out of "Aztlan."

As Miguel Perez of Cal State-Northridge's MEChA chapter has been quoted as saying: "The ultimate ideology is the liberation of Aztlan. Communism would be closest [to it]. Once Aztlan is established, ethnic cleansing would commence: Non-Chicanos would have to be expelled -- opposition groups would be quashed because you have to keep power."

MEChA Plants

Members of these radical, anti-American, racist organizations are frequently smoothly polished into public respectability by the National Council of La Raza.

Former MEChA members include Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, who was officially endorsed by La Raza for mayor and was awarded La Raza's Graciela Olivarez Award. Now we know why he refuses to condemn a sea of foreign flags in his city. California Lt. Gov. Cruz Bustamante is also a former MEChA member. He delivered the keynote address at La Raza's 2002 Annual Convention.

The National Council of La Raza and its allies in public office make no repudiation of the radical MEChA and its positions. In fact, as recently as 2003, La Raza was actively funding MEChA, according to federal tax records.

Imagine Robert Byrd's refusing to disavow the views of the KKK, or if Strom Thurmond had failed to admit segregation was wrong. Imagine Heritage or Brookings Foundation making grants to the American Nazi Party.

Is the National Council of La Raza itself a racist organization? Regardless of the organization's suspect ties, the majority of its members are not. When one examines all the organization's activities, they are commendable non-profit projects, such as education and housing programs.

But even these defensible efforts raise the question of whether education and housing programs funded with federal tax dollars should be used in programs specifically targeted to benefit just one ethnic group.

La Raza defenders usually respond by calling anyone making these allegations "a racist" for having called attention to La Raza's racist links. All the groups and public officials with ties to the La Raza movement can take a big step towards disproving these allegations by simply following the examples of Senators Byrd and Thurmond and repenting of their past ways.

If they are unwilling to admit past misdeeds, they can at least state -- unequivocally -- that they officially oppose the racist and anti-American positions of MEChA, and any other groups that espouse similar views.

Through public appearances, written statements, and on their respective websites, La Raza groups and allies must:

1. Denounce the motto "For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada," as repugnant, racist, and totally incompatible with American society or citizenship.

2. Acknowledge the right of all Americans to live wherever they choose in the <st1:country-region><st1:place>U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> without segregation.

3. Commit to sponsorship of nationwide educational programs to combat racism and anti-Semitism in the Hispanic community.

4. Denounce and sever all ties with MEChA and any other organizations with which they have ever been associated which held to the racist doctrines held by MEChA.

5. Acknowledge the internationally recognized borders of the <st1:country-region><st1:place>U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region>, the right of the citizens of the <st1:country-region><st1:place>U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> to determine immigration policy through the democratic process, and the right of the <st1:country-region><st1:place>U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> to undertake any and all necessary steps to effectively enforce immigration law and defend its border against unauthorized entry.

6. Repudiate all claims that current American territory rightfully belongs to <st1:country-region><st1:place>Mexico</st1:place></st1:country-region>.

If the National Council of La Raza, other La Raza groups, and local and national political leaders with past ties and associations with the radical elements of the La Raza movement can publicly issue such a statement and live by every one of these principles, they should be welcomed into the American public policy arena, with past sins -- real or imaginary -- forgiven.

If they cannot publicly and fully support these principles, Congress needs to take appropriate steps and immediately bar any group refusing to comply from receiving any future federal funds. Both the House and Senate should strike these groups from testifying before any committees, and the White House should sever all ties. Both political parties should disengage from any further contact with these groups and individuals.

There are plenty of decent, patriotic Hispanic organizations and elected officials to provide Congress with necessary feedback on specific issues confronting Americans of Latino heritage. Any group or individual who can agree with the simple six points should be welcomed into that fold.

If not, the American people will know there's a wolf in their midst, and take the necessary precautions to defend our Republic against an enemy. <o:p></o:p>

Braggi

06-17-2009, 09:13 AM

... The nation's television screens many days recently have been filled with scenes of huge crowds carrying the colorful green and red flag ...

Thanks for posting this Todd. I was aware of these organizations and their work, but I was not aware of the public funding. I do hope these bribes for votes are some of the first spending cuts being considered by our elected public servants. The taxpayers shouldn't support openly racist groups.

The solution, of course, is integration. These people do have a good point: the land of their ancestors was stolen by Europeans. The fact is that the children and the children's children of the most radical people in these groups will increasingly identify as U.S. "Americans" and not separatists won't please them, but it's inevitable.

Love is the solution. Becoming family is the solution. Recognizing we're all one big family is the solution. Identifying one another as "enemy" is the problem.

Love is the law. Sharing is the way. Peace is the goal. Happiness is the reward.

-Jeff

toddwquigley

06-17-2009, 03:37 PM

Thanks for posting this Todd. I was aware of these organizations and their work, but I was not aware of the public funding. I do hope these bribes for votes are some of the first spending cuts being considered by our elected public servants. The taxpayers shouldn't support openly racist groups.

The solution, of course, is integration. These people do have a good point: the land of their ancestors was stolen by Europeans. The fact is that the children and the children's children of the most radical people in these groups will increasingly identify as U.S. "Americans" and not separatists won't please them, but it's inevitable.

Love is the solution. Becoming family is the solution. Recognizing we're all one big family is the solution. Identifying one another as "enemy" is the problem.

Love is the law. Sharing is the way. Peace is the goal. Happiness is the reward.

-Jeff

Well actually the Aztecs stole the land from the Yaqui (Northern Mexico), and north of that (IE: America) was primarily Apache, and Navajo, with a few Hopi and the disapparing Anasazi until you get to California where there are several other tribes. Nobody wanted this land, because until you got into the northern reaches of it, it was primarily useless desert (useless to a few Spaniards and their Mexican dogs)

The Spaniards set up the Missions, not the Mexicans, so technically the Spaniards have a claim on the SW. Of course the Spaniards stole it from the local indians named above. When Spain and Mexico had their split, Mexico wound up with a bunch of worthless desert land, inhabited by a few hostile indians, seperated by many hundreds of miles of arrid deserts and the high arrid Sonoran mountains far from Mexico City.

The Mexicans took one look at the situation, and SOLD it to the poor stupid suckers known as the United States (Treaty of Hildago). When gold was found a couple of years later, Mexico was upset, but still there was no rush to try and reclaim the land, and requests for workers for the mines and camps went unheeded even at very high pay rates.

In other words, the Mexicans SOLD land that they STOLE from the native North American Indians, and didn't have any right to sell in the first place. We have a Treaty of Hildago, but the Mexicans never paid the Indians one cent, nor ever signed any treaty with them. This land was considered unusable because there was no water, and in over 200 years, the only thing the Spaniards had built were a few ranchos and a few small mission towns.

So, if you want to say that the Europeans stole land from the Aztecs (who stole it from the Toltecs) and Mayas, you are correct, because that what the Spaniards did in Mexico, but if you want to claim that America stole the American SW from Mexico, you are completely wrong, because Mexico sold all their claims on the American SW 160 years ago as they considered the land useless.

The people with a complaint of having their land stolen from them in the Ameruican SW are the native American tribes that still live there on reservations, however, again, much of this land was bartered away for cool things the Whiteman had such as guns, cookware and other nifty products made of metal. (not to say that the didn't ply the Indians with firewater before beginning negotiations...)

The Mexicans therefore have absolutely no claim to the American SW, because what claim the had, the stole and then sold.

The reason they want "Aztlan", is simple greed. Once American people's hard work had made these areas (especially California) desirable real estate, then the whining began. Without the great irrigation projects of the SW, the land would still be useless. Look at Arizona beyond Phoenix and Tucson, or New Mexico besides Albequercuie and Santa Fe, and it's still pretty much a wasteland that nobody lives in.

The prize is California, and it's only the last 60-70 years that anybody wanted it. Again, it was the great irrigation projects that made California viable. The Mexicans say: "Well we helped build it", yes along with a much greater proportion of whites and orientals. The difference is that the Mexicans were not in the country legally.

I fail to see the logic of this, they not only didn't go to jail, but they got paid to work, which is a pretty good deal, yet because they made up a small percentage of the poulation, they believe it entitles them to own the whole thing. This is one of the carpenters that helped build your house telling you that you should give him the house, because his family once owned the land it sits on before it was sold, and because he helped to built it.

Think international borders are a laughing matter? Try that theory in a few other countries, and you will quickly find that 95% of the World considers them to be sacroscent, and they will protect those borders with lethal force for many simple but good reasons that I will not innumerate right now (Look at N Korea LOL!).

These people have no legal or moral right to be here, and they have no legal or moral claim on our land. However here they are in the millions, systematically abusing our social system for food, housing, medical care and whatever else they can grab, and yet they pay as little tax as possible by claiming a dozen dependents or simply exempt.

Their government pays money for classes on how to abuse america's sociaal systems, while giving them supplies for their crossing and initial time here, and often subsidizes the cost of smuggling them here.

They supply 90% of all the illegal drugs, their unlicensed and uninsured drivers cost us millions each year, their abuse of our social system has taken California from a State that traditionally had the best social services, the best infrastructure, and a budget surplus, into the mess it is today.

When 80% of those collecting social services don't pay any tax, it doesn't take long to ruin a perfectly good State.

They refuse to assimulate, because they are either only here temporarily to mine our economy for a while, or because they think that we should change to accomodate them.

Their culture believes that: Stealing from anybody that you think has more than you do, is perfectly OK. That treating women like dirt is OK, that Mexican men can do no wrong, and it is their duty to have as many children as they can father (but not provide for).

They bring 85% of all violent crime, and our prisons are clogged with 70+%Mexican gangsters.

Want me to keep going???

You say we should love on another and all get along. Hey, great concept, but it's not realistic when everybody isn't on the same page, it just winds up with lots of good intentioned victims (Victims of their own delusions).

The truth is that many people think that we should all be equal, and all get along, just as long as THEIR cultural group IS ON TOP and calling the shots. The rest of the people simply can not, and will not get along with anybody else (IE: Islam).

This is reality, sad but true, and to not heed reality is dangerous enough for oneself, but to encourage and insist that others also not heed reality, makes you a party to whatever befalls them.

God says love one another, but he also warns of being a fool

Speak2Truth

06-18-2009, 01:53 PM

Remember the 300. When government was bought and corrupted by enemy invaders, leaving the nation defenseless, Leonidas rallied men of courage to do what was required for the nation to survive.

Today's equivalent would be the Minutemen - but even they are hamstrung by respect for the "laws" handed to them by legislators determined to enable enemy conquest in our nation.

Our Constitution mandates that all invaders, those coming into this country, be "repelled". That means, removed. If they resist, force must be used. That is what the highest law of the land requires.

Ignoring the Constitution has allowed a foreign nation to move in an occupation force to seize control of our political processes, our assets, our land. That's an act of war.

Why don't Americans fight back? They have been dumbed down and have forgotten their duty as Citizens.

One of those duties is to remove from office the politicians who refuse to obey their Oath of Office. Another is to uphold the Constitution when the public servants fail to.

The Founders of this nation accurately predicted that it could not be destroyed by external forces but only by internal enemies. Their warning is manifested right before our eyes today.

Love is fine - but don't love a tiger too much. It will kill you.

phooph

06-20-2009, 02:27 AM

When 80% of those collecting social services don't pay any tax, it doesn't take long to ruin a perfectly good State.

Many illegal immigrants pay up at tax time - USATODAY.com (https://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm)

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

The Tax Foundation - Immigrants and Taxes (https://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html)

They refuse to assimulate, because they are either only here temporarily to mine our economy for a while, or because they think that we should change to accomodate them.

OK, so are they here temporarily or are they planning to take back the "ancestral lands?"

Their culture believes that: Stealing from anybody that you think has more than you do, is perfectly OK. That treating women like dirt is OK, that Mexican men can do no wrong, and it is their duty to have as many children as they can father (but not provide for).

They bring 85% of all violent crime, and our prisons are clogged with 70+%Mexican gangsters.

The Illegal Immigrant Crime Myth (https://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/mar/01/co-the-illegal-immigrant-crime-myth/news-opinion-commentary/)

Study: Immigrants don't raise U.S. crime rate | www.azstarnet.com Â® (https://www.azstarnet.com/news/171109)

Immigrants, Including â€œIllegal Aliensâ€ in California, Have Much Lower Crime Rate than the Rest of Us - California Progress Report (https://www.californiaprogressreport.com/2008/02/immigrants_incl.html)

Statewide Database | Census News (https://swdb.berkeley.edu/resources/Census_News/2008/doillegalaliensmakecrimeratesrise.htm)

You say we should love on another and all get along. Hey, great concept, but it's not realistic when everybody isn't on the same page, it just winds up with lots of good intentioned victims (Victims of their own delusions).

The truth is that many people think that we should all be equal, and all get along, just as long as THEIR cultural group IS ON TOP and calling the shots. The rest of the people simply can not, and will not get along with anybody else (IE: Islam).

Historically the most consistently aggressive cultures on the earth have been Eurocentric, beginning with Alexander the Great who managed to conquer huge amounts of real estate in an astoundingly short period of time and swallowing the Persian and Egyptian Empires in the process. Then there was the Roman Empire, the Spanish Empire, and the British Empire on which the sun never set with the Arab/Islamic Ottoman Empire as sandwich filling.

WWII was Hitler's attempt to rebuild the Roman Empire, the Thousand Year Empire that lasted nine awful years. The Japanese had their bid at empire over in Asia which has been replace by conquest through superior product engineering and manufacture.

If you look at the amount of land taken and held, however, the Europeans hold first place having taken over both North and South America, Australia, New Zealand, miscellaneous, scattered islands, chunks of Africa, and some of Asia.

WWII ushered in the American Empire which is now on the wane, and is being outstripped by the European Union. When considering all the centuries that those countries fought one another, who would have thought they'd unite and become the next economic giant?

And we also have China to contend with as it is looking to become the next 800 lb gorilla.

This is reality, sad but true, and to not heed reality is dangerous enough for oneself, but to encourage and insist that others also not heed reality, makes you a party to whatever befalls them.

God says love one another, but he also warns of being a fool

From God's perspective we are all His creation - all His children. God created the world without borders. It was people who drew lines on God's world and stated, "Mine!"

toddwquigley

06-20-2009, 05:11 AM

Many illegal immigrants pay up at tax time - USATODAY.com (https://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm)

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

The Tax Foundation - Immigrants and Taxes (https://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html)

These reports all show the same thing: A very small percentage file tax returns. The bottom one says that 1.4Million filed, yet ther is at a minimum, 20 million. What is that about 11.5%? Gosh, I was wrong, the number that actually pay is even lower

What it doesn't take into consideration which is really the nail in the coffin, is that when they fill out their W2, they either claim exempt or 10 dependents. That's why you see them paying so much SS tax, because it can't be exempted and it isn't amoliated by having dependents, so this is an accurate number. Gosh, how come Fed and State taxes are not proportionately higher??? (Because the claim exempt or 10 dependents)

Wow, that means we're really getting screwed on Fed and State doesn't it...

Gee a whole 7600 signed up for tax payer numbers, about the same number that crossed the border between Tuesday and Friday.

I'm so impressed...........

OK, so are they here temporarily or are they planning to take back the "ancestral lands?"

Was this a rhetorical question? Some are mining our economy, and some are here for good, duh...

The Illegal Immigrant Crime Myth (https://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/mar/01/co-the-illegal-immigrant-crime-myth/news-opinion-commentary/)

Study: Immigrants don't raise U.S. crime rate | www.azstarnet.com Â® (https://www.azstarnet.com/news/171109)

Immigrants, Including â€œIllegal Aliensâ€ in California, Have Much Lower Crime Rate than the Rest of Us - California Progress Report (https://www.californiaprogressreport.com/2008/02/immigrants_incl.html)

Statewide Database | Census News (https://swdb.berkeley.edu/resources/Census_News/2008/doillegalaliensmakecrimeratesrise.htm)

Very funny, these are not objective articles, they are opinionated and skewed progressive/liberal sites. It's like saying: "It is because I said so" (Obama's favorite trick", OK, WHATEVER...

If you want to find out how many Hispanics are really in our jails and prisons, call the County Jail and ask them what proportion of their inmates are Hispanic, and then call The California Department of Corrections and ask the same question, you'll find I was actually conservative.

A couple of the Southern California prisons are virtually all Mexican. I'm not even going to bother with finding the stats, because this is such common knowledge, I have no idea why anybody would try to dispute it.

If you want some good entertainment, hang out in the WalMart parking lot, and compare the percentaage of Hispanics getting arrested to everybody else.

The California penal system is absolutely flooded with Hispanics, because they have so many Hispanic gang members, so many unlicensed Hispanic drivers, and so many illegal hispanics. The figure given for the last few years in California is approx 70%.

Let's talk about drugs: About the only thing the Mexicans don't have a monopoly on is weed and hallicinogenics. Virtually all of the Cocaine, Heroine, Meth and PCP is made, imported, distributed and sold is the work of Hispanics, specifically Mexicans.

let's talk about violent street gangs; There are a handfull of white gangs, and around large black populations, you will find some Crips and Bloods, and there are a few Asian gangs, but the overwhelming majority of gang members are hispanic. Norteneos, Surenneos, MF 13, etc.

Let's talk about the front page news of all the Narcos killing everybody that gets in their way, whether here or in Mexico. Given the fact that this has been front page news for the last year, I cannot understand why you wasted our time on this one

Historically the most consistently aggressive cultures on the earth have been Eurocentric, beginning with Alexander the Great who managed to conquer huge amounts of real estate in an astoundingly short period of time and swallowing the Persian and Egyptian Empires in the process. Then there was the Roman Empire, the Spanish Empire, and the British Empire on which the sun never set with the Arab/Islamic Ottoman Empire as sandwich filling.

Yep, but let's not forget China and India, they have a very long record of killing each other. The Japanese spent 3000 years fighting each other, and turned war into artistic spectator sport and population control. Then there's Africa, has there ever been a time when two tribes were not fighting? (Don't think so). Then there's pre Columbian Western Hemisphere, where people killed each other for sport.

The Polynesians whole culture is based on war (Read James Norman Hall's, "The Far Away Lands", it's a true story of how a "peace loving" people sailed on and on for years, looking for the perfect island to stop and build a peaceful society. What was the island they finally colonized? Rapa Nui AKA: Easter Island...

WWII was Hitler's attempt to rebuild the Roman Empire, the Thousand Year Empire that lasted nine awful years. The Japanese had their bid at empire over in Asia which has been replace by conquest through superior product engineering and manufacture.

Know who won WWII? the USSR. Truman the traitor handed Eastern Europe to them, because he was afraid of being "unpopular" if he extended the war to kick the Russians out of Eastern Europe, Therefore we got the biggest, most expensive, and at times the most frightening war of all, the Cold War.

If you look at the amount of land taken and held, however, the Europeans hold first place having taken over both North and South America, Australia, New Zealand, miscellaneous, scattered islands, chunks of Africa, and some of Asia.

Heck yeah they did, superior technology, superior strategy, and a sense of manifest destiny is pretty hard to beat.

Some of Asia??? what do you call India, a small slice? What about Malaysia and Indonesia, Indo China, etc...

WWII ushered in the American Empire which is now on the wane, and is being outstripped by the European Union. When considering all the centuries that those countries fought one another, who would have thought they'd unite and become the next economic giant?

Europeans primarily fought each other for titles (such as King), and/or the land attached to the title. Many of these wars were family affairs about line of succession. Once European royalty was disempowered in the late 18th Century, they didn't have much reason to fight as much (key word: "As much". Of course what started WWI: Again, family squabbles.

Lets get to the real reason Europe United: The USSR. 50 years of peace and trade set the stage, and with the demise of the USSR, everyone downsized their military ("Hey, if it's really bad, we'll just call America again").

Note: Europe's economy is coming to a screeching halt pretty soon, because their governments are their biggest business, and there's no more money left since Europe trades primarily with Europe. This is what our current Government wants: To rule everything, socialism gone haywire, and the citizens enslaved to their debt.

And we also have China to contend with as it is looking to become the next 800 lb gorilla.

Yep, China: 6000 years of China for the Chinese, everybody else is not welcome. 6000 years of feudal society and endless wars.

From God's perspective we are all His creation - all His children. God created the world without borders. It was people who drew lines on God's world and stated, "Mine!"

Well God certainly talks about borders qujite a bit in the Bible and who is, and who is not, welcome within them.

He very specifically laid out the borders of Israel didn't he. He also told the Israelites to go exterminate all the people that were within these borders.

Speak2Truth

06-20-2009, 03:25 PM

A quick post 'n run here... Phooph, your link saying immigrants don't raise crime rates does not back its own headline. What it says is,

"In every ethnic group, incarceration rates among young men are lowest for immigrants, even those who are less educated, said the study by the Immigration Policy Center, an immigrant-advocacy group in Washington. This holds especially true for Mexicans, Salvadorans and Guatemalans, who make up the bulk of the illegal population."

They often get deported rather than serve out sentences like Americans do. Furthermore, there is the difficulty of actually catching them, since they often flee the country after severe crimes (Mexico won't extradite them back here) or they simply are not identifiable since they are not "in the system".

But think of this - every single crime committed by an illegal immigrant would not have happened if that person had not invaded our country. Illegals committing identity theft, rape, molestation, robbery, drug dealing - ALL of it would be eliminated if those persons were not here.

Weld cracks down on 1,300 ID theft cases
Suspects may have received $2.6 million in federal tax refunds.
https://www.greeleytribune.com/article/20081114/NEWS/811139961&parentprofile=search

"In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicides (which total 1,200-1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of the fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens."
One Reporter's Opinion: Special Order 40: A Revolving Door (https://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/1/23/132011.shtml)

Illegal-alien offenders flout U.S. justice system
'Don't ask' policies, easy access to bail, deportation put criminals back on street
Illegal-alien offenders<br> flout U.S. justice system (https://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48896)

Remember, illegal immigrants have a 100% CRIME RATE! They are all law-breakers. Every single one of them has demonstrated disregard for our laws.

Speak2Truth

06-20-2009, 03:31 PM

Historically the most consistently aggressive cultures on the earth have been Eurocentric

So, just how familiar are you with the history of African nations, warfare, slavery? Or the Aztecs?

I don't know how you choose to measure "aggressive" but it seems to me the world has been covered in it.

But, if you want to play the Euro-focus game... that is where modern civilization originated. The epitome of modern civilization has been the European colony that became the United States, a system embracing individual liberty, freedom from government oppression, personal prosperity, morality, a Christian-based idealism that has persons from all other continents fleeing to the United States from their own historically oppressive systems.

But now the Marxists are screwing up the United States too.

toddwquigley

06-20-2009, 05:36 PM

Remember, illegal immigrants have a 100% CRIME RATE! They are all law-breakers. Every single one of them has demonstrated disregard for our laws.[/quote]

Yes, exactly!

As I noted above, quoting progressive/liberal op/ed articles is just quoting opinions, not facts. Why not just quote the La Raza site, which pretends that Hispanics do nothing wrong and it's all the Gringos fault.

If you want accurate facts, then go to the agencies that actually enforce the laws, and jail the offenders, such as the County and State law enforcement and incarceration facilities. From which you will find that Hispanics make up approx. 70% of the total arrests and inmates.

Now if you want to count only violent crime, the percentage goes up even higher, because of their huge gang population, and their lack of morals. (Some of the Narcos have actually eaten the heart or liver of other gang leaders, believing phony Aztec legends that it will make them as strong as two men

What I found amusing was the articles he posted on Hispanics and taxes, which were pretty funny, because while the articles say that "many" Hispanics are now paying their taxes, they also admit that the vast majority are not.

And lets not forget the morals of a people that say: "I am above the law", as they commit their first crime in America, which also happens to be their first step into America.

Mexico has everything it needs to be a very prosperous nation, on a level with America, Canada or Europe. All it is lacking is people with ethics and honor to come together and build something great. Unfortunately the national pastimes of it's citizens are lying, cheating and stealing, behaviors that are ingrained at a very young age.

Go to the Sebastopol flea market, and watch the little ones (and their parents) stuff their pockets. It a culture without ethics, morals and honor, and as such, it will never produce much more than it does now.

Are there some good Hispanics out there, absolutely, but sadly they are the minority.

Cat in the Woods

06-21-2009, 04:01 PM

Just a couple of thoughts on the subject:

1. Many "illegals" end up giving a false (usually made up) Social Security number to employers, who then withhold all appropriate taxes. However, because the employee is afraid of having their "illegal" status exposed, they never file for any tax return they may otherwise be due.

2. Perhaps one reason that there are a larger number of Hispanics (as well as other people of color) in our jails is due to the racism that is still so prevalent in this country. It is still very much an issue. Which is obvious from the fact that this conversation is even going on.

Here's another one: While we're taking a look at who grabbed "real estate" from whom, it seems to me that no matter where they originated, they were all (or nearly all) MEN! Hmmmmm, perhaps we're looking in the wrong direction . . . I refer you to Riane Eisler's "The Chalice & the Blade".

Maybe chewing on that for a while will keep you out of trouble! (Probably not.)

toddwquigley

06-21-2009, 09:05 PM

Well Cat,
Yes, some use fake numbers, which means we get extra SS, however when people claim exempt, or mass deductions, we get screwed.

Racism? Oh yes, however they have us beat by a large measure, most people are nice to immigrants, while most immigrants hate gringos. Personally I just don't like their abusive, racist, macho culture, their race means nothing.

The Hispanic culture is is among the most abusive towards their women. Yes men are agressive, vote for female politicians, I would much rather Hilliary had won.

phooph

06-22-2009, 09:35 AM

One could eliminate all crime by eliminating all people. Any increase in population will produce an increase in crime including legal immigration and an increasing birth rate.

Remember that there was great opposition to previous waves of immigrants with the argument that they were riff-raff who would raise the crime rate and degrade the quality of life for those already here. Once it was the Irish and later the Italians and there is no argument that each brought with them a criminal element. They also brought productive, hard working people who have contributed to the country.

Vietnamese and Cambodians fleeing conflict and communism in Asia also brought their criminal element and some areas are still plagued with their gangs.

In all instances, most of the crime is perpetrated on their own people.

A quick post 'n run here... Phooph, your link saying immigrants don't raise crime rates does not back its own headline. What it says is,

"In every ethnic group, incarceration rates among young men are lowest for immigrants, even those who are less educated, said the study by the Immigration Policy Center, an immigrant-advocacy group in Washington. This holds especially true for Mexicans, Salvadorans and Guatemalans, who make up the bulk of the illegal population."

They often get deported rather than serve out sentences like Americans do. Furthermore, there is the difficulty of actually catching them, since they often flee the country after severe crimes (Mexico won't extradite them back here) or they simply are not identifiable since they are not "in the system".

But think of this - every single crime committed by an illegal immigrant would not have happened if that person had not invaded our country. Illegals committing identity theft, rape, molestation, robbery, drug dealing - ALL of it would be eliminated if those persons were not here.

Weld cracks down on 1,300 ID theft cases
Suspects may have received $2.6 million in federal tax refunds.
https://www.greeleytribune.com/article/20081114/NEWS/811139961&parentprofile=search

"In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicides (which total 1,200-1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of the fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens."
One Reporter's Opinion: Special Order 40: A Revolving Door (https://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/1/23/132011.shtml)

Illegal-alien offenders flout U.S. justice system
'Don't ask' policies, easy access to bail, deportation put criminals back on street
Illegal-alien offenders<br> flout U.S. justice system (https://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48896)

Remember, illegal immigrants have a 100% CRIME RATE! They are all law-breakers. Every single one of them has demonstrated disregard for our laws.

toddwquigley

06-22-2009, 10:33 AM

One could eliminate all crime by eliminating all people. Any increase in population will produce an increase in crime including legal immigration and an increasing birth rate.

Remember that there was great opposition to previous waves of immigrants with the argument that they were riff-raff who would raise the crime rate and degrade the quality of life for those already here. Once it was the Irish and later the Italians and there is no argument that each brought with them a criminal element. They also brought productive, hard working people who have contributed to the country.

Vietnamese and Cambodians fleeing conflict and communism in Asia also brought their criminal element and some areas are still plagued with their gangs.

In all instances, most of the crime is perpetrated on their own people.

There is one very big difference between Hispanics and everybody else, the Hispanics are here illegally. Their very first act in America is to break the law by being here. It shows their value system, which is "Me first, and by the way, what can you give me"?

How many hispanics would come here if they knew the first thing that would happen to them is to be shipped to Iraq to fight our war? Ask a few, and you will find not a one, yet the Irish got on the boat in Ireland knowing they were headed directly to join the Union Army and fight Confederates as soon as they landed in NYC. They considered this a fair trade for the chance at a fresh start.

In both World Wars the Italians and Irish were among the first to volunteer, to fight for their new country, whereas as soon as we get into a shooting war, Hispanic enlistment drops off to almost nothing.
There is one very big difference between those who live next door, and those who live thousands of miles away.

When the people's you name immigrated here, they didn't have any plans to occasionally go home, and they didn't have any plans to take over the Southwest. They came her to stay, to become part of the country, to learn our language, to become tax paying citizens. They didn't ask for anything but a chance to better themselves by their own two hands, and in fact, many moved here to get away from the socialism Hispanics love to abuse.

It is the attitude of these self serving, ungrateful lawbreakers that makes so many Americans angry. It's acting like they have a right to be here, to take whatever they want, to trash the environment and treat their neighborhood like an open landfill, It's the attitude that everyone is below them, and we should be grateful they are here to work. They seem to forget that we built all the things they want to take from us without their help, and that we don't need nor want them, whilst they need us.

Keep making excuses for them, just like libs, they love to play the victim.

phooph

06-22-2009, 10:58 AM

There are illegals here from all over the world, Asia, Europe, Africa, Canada. Lots from Canada. (https://jonswift.blogspot.com/2006/01/canadians-other-illegal-immigrants.html)

Illegal aliens joining the U.S. military (https://24ahead.com/blog/archives/006100.html)

Much of your rant below makes no sense. In your effort to support your somewhat shaky position you are beginning to contradict yourself. Hispanics coming to America to escape socialism back home so they can exploit our socialism?:hmmm:

There is one very big difference between Hispanics and everybody else, the Hispanics are here illegally. Their very first act in America is to break the law by being here. It shows their value system, which is "Me first, and by the way, what can you give me"?

How many hispanics would come here if they knew the first thing that would happen to them is to be shipped to Iraq to fight our war? Ask a few, and you will find not a one, yet the Irish got on the boat in Ireland knowing they were headed directly to join the Union Army and fight Confederates as soon as they landed in NYC. They considered this a fair trade for the chance at a fresh start.

In both World Wars the Italians and Irish were among the first to volunteer, to fight for their new country, whereas as soon as we get into a shooting war, Hispanic enlistment drops off to almost nothing.
There is one very big difference between those who live next door, and those who live thousands of miles away.

When the people's you name immigrated here, they didn't have any plans to occasionally go home, and they didn't have any plans to take over the Southwest. They came her to stay, to become part of the country, to learn our language, to become tax paying citizens. They didn't ask for anything but a chance to better themselves by their own two hands, and in fact, many moved here to get away from the socialism Hispanics love to abuse.

It is the attitude of these self serving, ungrateful lawbreakers that makes so many Americans angry. It's acting like they have a right to be here, to take whatever they want, to trash the environment and treat their neighborhood like an open landfill, It's the attitude that everyone is below them, and we should be grateful they are here to work. They seem to forget that we built all the things they want to take from us without their help, and that we don't need nor want them, whilst they need us.

Keep making excuses for them, just like libs, they love to play the victim.

phooph

06-22-2009, 11:05 AM

I have long been a student of history and geography as well as anthropology. Clan and tribal warfare have been ubiquitous throughout the world. The noble classes of Europe are descended from robber barons, descended from tribal leaders, etc. Happens all over the world.

I measure aggression based on the territory acquired and held and the number of people displaced, killed, and assimilated in the process. Europe rules.

So, just how familiar are you with the history of African nations, warfare, slavery? Or the Aztecs?

I don't know how you choose to measure "aggressive" but it seems to me the world has been covered in it.

But, if you want to play the Euro-focus game... that is where modern civilization originated. The epitome of modern civilization has been the European colony that became the United States, a system embracing individual liberty, freedom from government oppression, personal prosperity, morality, a Christian-based idealism that has persons from all other continents fleeing to the United States from their own historically oppressive systems.

But now the Marxists are screwing up the United States too.

toddwquigley

06-22-2009, 12:54 PM

There are illegals here from all over the world, Asia, Europe, Africa, Canada. Lots from Canada. (https://jonswift.blogspot.com/2006/01/canadians-other-illegal-immigrants.html)

Illegal aliens joining the U.S. military (https://24ahead.com/blog/archives/006100.html)

Much of your rant below makes no sense. In your effort to support your somewhat shaky position you are beginning to contradict yourself. Hispanics coming to America to escape socialism back home so they can exploit our socialism?:hmmm:

Oh, my mistake, I didn't know that N. Viet Nam, Laos and Cambodia were such shining examples of capitalism and democracy. LOL!!

I'm confused, exactly how did you get that I was referring to Mexico as being a socialist heaven out of that?

Yes there are illegals from everywhere, but put them all together, and the Hispanics still out number them about 5 to 1.

I wasn't aware that the Europeans and Asians had dug drug and people smuggling tunnels under the oceans. You gotta watch out for those Canadian gangsters, because you don't be in their neighborhood after dark or they might force you to watch hockey.

I have two Russian friends, they both have masters degrees, they pay their taxes, give genorously of the time and money to charities, are licensed and insured, buy American, speak English, have no infectous diseases and don't take a dime of social handouts. Their children are respectful and well behaved. The kind of people that any country would be glad to have, any country but America because we have so many Illegals that the greencard lottery this year, is only 50,000 cards for 5 million applicants.

Coicidentally 50,000 is about the same number of Hispanics that entered the country illegally in the last 2 weeks or so, and the 100/1 odds are the about the same odds of any of those 50,000 to not sign up for food stamps and a MediCal card.

You can lead a Phooph to the water of truth, but you cannot make him drink...

What's you next excuse for them?

toddwquigley

06-22-2009, 01:06 PM

Here, let me explain what I meant by:

"many moved here to get away from the socialism Hispanics love to abuse".

Many people from socialist countries (IE Indo China), know first hand that socialism/communism doesn't work, and when the come here, they sign up for nothing, because they know there's no such thing as a free lunch, while most Mexicans come here and abuse our social system.

Got it??

Speak2Truth

06-22-2009, 03:06 PM

I measure aggression based on the territory acquired and held and the number of people displaced, killed, and assimilated in the process. Europe rules.

It think that is not a realistic measuring stick. Socialists murdered more innocents last century than were even on the planet a thousand years earlier. Is your measurement adjusted for population growth?

And what of aggression that is not designed to conquer territory?

I'd say the Aztecs were far more aggressive than any European culture I could think of, aside from the Socialist Workers Party of Germany (NAZIs). The Aztecs raided and conquered neighboring civilizations, seized their wealth and turned their population into human sacrifices. Ripping the heart out of a living human being every morning is pretty aggressive.

That's why, when the Spaniards arrived, many different peoples joined their march to wipe out the brutal Aztecs.

And what of various African nations? Are we even familiar with their ancient yet ongoing practices of slavery and tribalism? Africa once held huge civilizations that existed on the backs of slaves taken in raids. The African practice of slavery was imported to the British Colonies in America for a time - but it was the USA that eliminated that practice on our soil. Africa still suffers from tribal and religious aggression. Over the past few decades, we have been bombarded with stories of massive waves of refugees, starvation, genocides, religious exterminations (like the Islamic cleansing of Sudan) and so on. Aggressive? It's par for the course there.

I would say that the very LEAST aggressive of the major civilizations is the USA. What other nation would, after defeating an enemy nation in battle, devote resources and years of effort to helping that nation get back on its feet, establish self-determination in government... then just walk away?

I am very curious to see what path the world takes now that Socialists, whose stated goal is to wreck the American system and knock the US out of superpower status, are running the US.

Braggi

06-22-2009, 03:48 PM

Vic, how old are you? I really want to know. Your knowledge is so one sided and barely halfway there I have to assume all your above grade school education took place in caves in Montana with white supremacists. Did you, in fact, graduate from high school? Are you that old? I'm not trying to attack you with this, I just don't understand where you're coming from and I want to get it.

Let's take a look at a few of the partial truths and outright untruths you've posted here:

It think that is not a realistic measuring stick. Socialists murdered more innocents last century than were even on the planet a thousand years earlier. Is your measurement adjusted for population growth? ...

Actually, "it" is a realist measuring stick. You can't conquer more than exists. And do you have any idea how many native people were killed by the European invasion of the Americas? It could be as many as 200 million. Nobody else comes close.

... And what of aggression that is not designed to conquer territory? ...

You mean like the establishment of approximately 1,000 military bases, the majority of which are covering the Arctic Circle to the bottom of Africa so that the world supply of oil can be controlled? That's us Vic. The U.S.. The British Empire would blush.

... I'd say the Aztecs were far more aggressive than any European culture I could think of, aside from the Socialist Workers Party of Germany (NAZIs). The Aztecs raided and conquered neighboring civilizations, seized their wealth and turned their population into human sacrifices. Ripping the heart out of a living human being every morning is pretty aggressive.

That's why, when the Spaniards arrived, many different peoples joined their march to wipe out the brutal Aztecs. ...

I don't doubt that last statement, but ripping out a heart is merciful compared to what Europeans did to each other during the hundreds of years of the Inquisition, which the current war on women's reproductive rights and the Failed War on Some Drugs are descendants of. I've been in a real medieval torture chamber. I know what the machinery looks like. Rip out my heart rather than do what what the Germans did to other Germans, please. The English and the Spanish were little better.

... And what of various African nations? Are we even familiar with their ancient yet ongoing practices of slavery and tribalism? ...

Do you know anything about what you're saying? Most of the "slaves" you're referring to were paid wages, able to purchase property and able to buy out their freedom, much like Hebrew slaves described in the Bible. The majority of these people had far more rights and freedoms than serfs in Europe during the same time period. Slavery in Africa really got ugly after the Europeans got involved however. The tribes there have been at war ever since. Seen the (based on a true story) movie Hotel Rwanda?

... I am very curious to see what path the world takes now that Socialists, whose stated goal is to wreck the American system and knock the US out of superpower status, are running the US.

Wait now! It's the Republicans who wish for a government "small enough to drown in a bathtub." We're certainly heading in that direction but it was your boy Bush that got the disaster going full force.

Do some homework Vic. You have so much to learn.

-Jeff

Speak2Truth

06-22-2009, 06:07 PM

Actually, "it" is a realist measuring stick. You can't conquer more than exists. And do you have any idea how many native people were killed by the European invasion of the Americas? It could be as many as 200 million. Nobody else comes close.

You seem to be echoing what I just said. You can't conquer more than exist.

Human population has increased rapidly on this planet. Therefore, a measure of how many people were conquered or killed is irrelevant when comparing levels of aggression. Obviously, more recent activities allow for greater numbers - but far more aggressive cultures even a thousand years ago would have been incapable of matching today's numbers. I hope you are old enough to grasp this.

You say 200 million North Americans were killed by Europeans - that's an awfully large number. While there is broad debate on their actual numbers, 200 million is more than any estimate I've seen of the population in North America at the time of the arrival of Columbus. And, it was disease, not aggression, that wiped out most of them. By the time European settlers established colonies on the Continent (which Columbus did not), they had to be careful when walking in the woods to not step in a dead Indian (taken from a first-hand account of the period). The cities of North America were laid waste before they were ever discovered by Europeans, including the great mound-pyramids of the Ohio Valley.

This is from Wikipedia, admittedly not the authority on anything:

Population history of American indigenous peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples)

It is estimated, based on archaeological data and written records from European settlers, that from 8 to 140 million indigenous people lived in the Americas when the 1492 voyage of Christopher Columbus began a historical period of large-scale European interaction with the Americas. European contact with what they called the "New World" led to the European colonization of the Americas, with millions of emigrants (willing and unwilling) from the "Old World" eventually resettling in the Americas.

While the population of Old World peoples in the Americas steadily grew in the centuries after Columbus, the population of the American indigenous peoples plummeted most probably due to their susceptibility to old world diseases [smallpox, influenza, bubonic and pneumonic plagues, etc.] they had never before been exposed to. The extent (and to a lesser extent the causes) of this population decline have long been the subject of debate.

You mean like the establishment of approximately 1,000 military bases, the majority of which are covering the Arctic Circle to the bottom of Africa so that the world supply of oil can be controlled? That's us Vic.You call this aggression? Mere palisades for defense? It appears to me that oil is sold freely on the open market, that our military was only activated to HALT aggression when Saddam Hussein rolled his tanks into Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Do not mistake a fight against an aggressor for aggression. That gives me a giggle. Gosh, it was aggressive of us to go stop Hitler too, wasn't it? Naaaaaahhhh....

You are making a lot of generalized assertions here, all of them boiling down to "Hate Europeans". I have to ask - would you prefer to live in the society that the Arabs created? How about Aztecs? Perhaps the Chinese? Or maybe the Somalis? Ethiopians?

You seem to think the horrors of Africa's past are less awful than things happening in Europe. I strongly disagree. But then, clearly you and I have seen different information sources.

As far as I'm concerned, there are two indisputable truths before our eyes:

1) We are arguing over a silly notion that absolutely cannot be proven, thanks to phooph inserting an irrelevant measuring stick into the conversation.

2) I would choose to live in no society other than the one created by enlightened Europeans in North America, one that we have been losing over the past few decades.

Under what society would you prefer to live?

And you guys keep claiming Bush started some sort of disaster - why can't you explain what you mean? You say nothing convincing that shows you have a factual basis for that assertion.

toddwquigley

06-23-2009, 12:16 AM

2) I would choose to live in no society other than the one created by enlightened Europeans in North America, one that we have been losing over the past few decades.

Under what society would you prefer to live?

And you guys keep claiming Bush started some sort of disaster - why can't you explain what you mean? You say nothing convincing that shows you have a factual basis for that assertion.[/quote]

What you don't seem to understand is that liberals live in a fantasy land and it doesn't matter if there isn't truth and logic, because they believe that whatever they say must be logical and truthful because they said it, and it makes them feel good about themselves. It's all about the emotions, how they feel about things, not what's really happening right in front of them. It's amazing how they insist there's no elephant, while at the same time opening a bag of peanuts

Obama stands there and tells them whatever they want to hear and they feel good. Therefore Obama must must be a genius because he appears to agree with them. Then he turns around and does whatever he feels like, and when it contradicts what he said, they make excuses for him, and say: "What he really meant was thus and such". He lies to them, they know it's a lie, but they convince themselves otherwise because it is what they want to hear. When the lie is exposed, they just change the facts to fit it, and because they believe it, it must be so, therefore you are obviously lying because they are never wrong,as to admit one wrong will cause the whole house of cards to fall down, and their very soul is linked to that house of cards.

All their leftist beliefs that other people see as lies, they consider holy writ. Look at the Pelosi scandal, we all know she lied, and had been a supporter of advanced interrogations, but she just denies it, calls the CIA the liar (projecting), and then says that it's a dead issue because she said so. Not true Nancy, half the country knows you lied. If a Republican had done that, we would have a giant investigation until somebody got burnt.

If Bush told 1/4 of the lies that Obama has, they would demand impeachment, but to them Obama is God and therefore he is never wrong, and never lies. Since he tells them what they want to hear, then obviously they are never wrong either.

Millions of people in mass delusions because their life is ruled by their emotions instead or truth and logic. It's schizophrenia on a massive scale, they are ready to approve, stamp and defend anything their Gods tell them IE: Kennedy, Pelosi, Reid, Obama, Clinton, Gore and amazingly, now Biden (Rofl, "Hey Joe, thanks to Obama needing a do-nothing white boy for second place, you are now a liberal God, how do you feel about that"? "what, huh?, oh-my-God, I need another drink, hey Teddy"...).

If you want to know what Obama is really up to, just take whatever he is accusing other people of (especially the ever convenient Bush), turn it around 180 degrees, apply it to him, and you will not be far off the mark.

Being a liberal is not being part of a political party, it's not a philosophy or religion, it is a cult, a cult of personality, A God like speaker made up of emotions and lies, who mesmerizes his followers, by telling them how right they are and what poor victims of the opposing party they have been. He tells them exactly what they want to hear: Together they can change things, "Change" is the hook, they never say what changes are planned, and therefore every true believer sees the "change" as being whatever it is that they want the most from their Government.

Marx > Lenin > Stalin > Castro > Chavez > Obama....

The masters of delusions and lies that control the "useful Idiots", "proles", "worker bees", (or your personal favorite adjective) for the gullible "liberals/progressives" that enable these Narcissistic, Prima Donna, Demagogues to spend a few years in power, making a mess out of other people's hard work, before being deposed.

toddwquigley

06-23-2009, 12:16 AM

2) I would choose to live in no society other than the one created by enlightened Europeans in North America, one that we have been losing over the past few decades.

Under what society would you prefer to live?

And you guys keep claiming Bush started some sort of disaster - why can't you explain what you mean? You say nothing convincing that shows you have a factual basis for that assertion.[/quote]

What you don't seem to understand is that liberals live in a fantasy land and it doesn't matter if there isn't truth and logic, because they believe that whatever they say must be logical and truthful because they said it, and it makes them feel good about themselves. It's all about the emotions, how they feel about things, not what's really happening right in front of them. It's amazing how they insist there's no elephant, while at the same time opening a bag of peanuts

Obama stands there and tells them whatever they want to hear and they feel good. Therefore Obama must must be a genius because he appears to agree with them. Then he turns around and does whatever he feels like, and when it contradicts what he said, they make excuses for him, and say: "What he really meant was thus and such". He lies to them, they know it's a lie, but they convince themselves otherwise because it is what they want to hear. When the lie is exposed, they just change the facts to fit it, and because they believe it, it must be so, therefore you are obviously lying because they are never wrong,as to admit one wrong will cause the whole house of cards to fall down, and their very soul is linked to that house of cards.

All their leftist beliefs that other people see as lies, they consider holy writ. Look at the Pelosi scandal, we all know she lied, and had been a supporter of advanced interrogations, but she just denies it, calls the CIA the liar (projecting), and then says that it's a dead issue because she said so. Not true Nancy, half the country knows you lied. If a Republican had done that, we would have a giant investigation until somebody got burnt.

If Bush told 1/4 of the lies that Obama has, they would demand impeachment, but to them Obama is God and therefore he is never wrong, and never lies. Since he tells them what they want to hear, then obviously they are never wrong either.

Millions of people in mass delusions because their life is ruled by their emotions instead or truth and logic. It's schizophrenia on a massive scale, they are ready to approve, stamp and defend anything their Gods tell them IE: Kennedy, Pelosi, Reid, Obama, Clinton, Gore and amazingly, now Biden (Rofl, "Hey Joe, thanks to Obama needing a do-nothing white boy for second place, you are now a liberal God, how do you feel about that"? "what, huh?, oh-my-God, I need another drink, hey Teddy"...).

If you want to know what Obama is really up to, just take whatever he is accusing other people of (especially the ever convenient Bush), turn it around 180 degrees, apply it to him, and you will not be far off the mark.

Being a liberal is not being part of a political party, it's not a philosophy or religion, it is a cult, a cult of personality, A God like speaker made up of emotions and lies, who mesmerizes his followers, by telling them how right they are and what poor victims of the opposing party they have been. He tells them exactly what they want to hear: Together they can change things, "Change" is the hook, they never say what changes are planned, and therefore every true believer sees the "change" as being whatever it is that they want the most from their Government.

Marx > Lenin > Stalin > Castro > Chavez > Obama....

The masters of delusions and lies that control the "useful Idiots", "proles", "worker bees", (or your personal favorite adjective) for the gullible "liberals/progressives" that enable these Narcissistic, Prima Donna, Demagogues to spend a few years in power, making a mess out of other people's hard work, before being deposed.

someguy

06-23-2009, 10:38 AM

2)
What you don't seem to understand is that liberals live in a fantasy land and it doesn't matter if there isn't truth and logic, because they believe that whatever they say must be logical and truthful because they said it, and it makes them feel good about themselves. It's all about the emotions, how they feel about things, not what's really happening right in front of them. It's amazing how they insist there's no elephant, while at the same time opening a bag of peanuts

Obama stands there and tells them whatever they want to hear and they feel good. Therefore Obama must must be a genius because he appears to agree with them. Then he turns around and does whatever he feels like, and when it contradicts what he said, they make excuses for him, and say: "What he really meant was thus and such". He lies to them, they know it's a lie, but they convince themselves otherwise because it is what they want to hear. When the lie is exposed, they just change the facts to fit it, and because they believe it, it must be so, therefore you are obviously lying because they are never wrong,as to admit one wrong will cause the whole house of cards to fall down, and their very soul is linked to that house of cards.

All their leftist beliefs that other people see as lies, they consider holy writ. Look at the Pelosi scandal, we all know she lied, and had been a supporter of advanced interrogations, but she just denies it, calls the CIA the liar (projecting), and then says that it's a dead issue because she said so. Not true Nancy, half the country knows you lied. If a Republican had done that, we would have a giant investigation until somebody got burnt.

If Bush told 1/4 of the lies that Obama has, they would demand impeachment, but to them Obama is God and therefore he is never wrong, and never lies. Since he tells them what they want to hear, then obviously they are never wrong either.

Wow. I think all I need to really say here is Condy Rice's 911 hearing. Same exact situation (as the pelosi situation) where she was caught in a lie (big lie) and republicans were still on all fours licking her dirty crevice sparkling clean. Remember during those post iraq war/911 hearings when she said something like 'Well I think the exact words were Iraq is not a security threat' or something very similar to that. Sounds an awful lot like the Pelosi scandal described above. And plus we could argue which lies caused more destruction, but I think we know who'd win that one.

Now before you get ahead of yourselves, mind you that I belong to no political party. But what I really want to say is that obama followers are just like bush followers. They accept Obamas word as truth, just as repub's did when Bush sold his war and other policies.

So when Im reading this whole thread it makes me laugh very hard to know that the same people who were calling republicans stupid, and ignorant, are now the ones acting stupidly and ignorantly, and vice versa. Good luck to all you political thumpers (like bible thumpers) trying to claim superiority over the other peoples ideologies, for yours too, is a shame.

Did any of you notice during this last election that when you really got down and dirty on the big issues that are facing this country that both JM and BO were saying almost exactly the same shit?! I was watching these debates and looking at these candidates websites before the election in utter disbelief that anyone would really think that one of these dudes was better than the other. IF we were to make a list point for point about the candidates policies on iraq, afgahnistan, financial crisis, healthcare, taxes, and so on.... They, more or less were spouting the same talking points in different words. Neither of them had any ideas that would bring real change, and by change I mean doing something different than Bush!!!!!!!

SO now that BO is president, why is he better than Bush? Or why is he worse? Id love to know the differences that you people see in these two presidents.

Oh and Jeff, if you read this, dont give me that "oh, your so young" BS. I hope you dont speak to your children that way. And I hope you realize that no matter how old someone is or where they were brought up, they have something to offer you.

Maybe just a slap back into reality is what a man my age can offer you, so here it is: Get off yor goddamned high horse, humble yourself a little bit, and stop degrading other people with your false logic. ANd by false logic I mean your perception that Young=stupid!!!! Well thats just as logical as me saying Jeff=stupid! I rather like it, but I wont degrade myself by stooping to your level and actually applying that logic.

phooph

06-23-2009, 10:45 AM

Oh, my mistake, I didn't know that N. Viet Nam, Laos and Cambodia were such shining examples of capitalism and democracy. LOL!!

Don't know how you inferred that from what I wrote. Are you deliberately misunderstanding me?

I'm confused, exactly how did you get that I was referring to Mexico as being a socialist heaven out of that?

Yes there are illegals from everywhere, but put them all together, and the Hispanics still out number them about 5 to 1.

How do you know that? Of course being right next door makes it convenient, but then so is Canada and that border doesn't have Minutemen patrolling it. How many Canadians do you suppose are here? I used to live in Maine and we had French Canadians entering the state in droves to harvest crops. Looked just like California at harvest time with all those families, complete with children, working in the fields and orchards. A lot of them didn't speak English, either. Insisted on speaking French.

I wasn't aware that the Europeans and Asians had dug drug and people smuggling tunnels under the oceans. You gotta watch out for those Canadian gangsters, because you don't be in their neighborhood after dark or they might force you to watch hockey.

They come in by ship and across both borders. Most come in from Canada because it's easier.

I have two Russian friends, they both have masters degrees, they pay their taxes, give genorously of the time and money to charities, are licensed and insured, buy American, speak English, have no infectous diseases and don't take a dime of social handouts. Their children are respectful and well behaved.

The kind of people that any country would be glad to have, any country but America because we have so many Illegals that the greencard lottery this year, is only 50,000 cards for 5 million applicants.

Coicidentally 50,000 is about the same number of Hispanics that entered the country illegally in the last 2 weeks or so, and the 100/1 odds are the about the same odds of any of those 50,000 to not sign up for food stamps and a MediCal card.

I live surrounded by Hispanics, probably Mexicans. I have no idea how many are illegal. Their cars and trucks sometimes wake me up in the early morning (like 5:00) going off to their jobs. Their children are well behaved and ask us nicely to return the ball that came over the fence and politely ask permission to pick the figs on our tree. I have tomato plants growing next to where some of them park and no one has snitched as much as a single tomato in all the years I've been growing them there (I only have three plants. I know every cluster). The family across the street had Univision here shooting a program on drug prevention among Hispanic youth. After 9/11 a lot of them put American flags on their vehicles and two who own houses hung flags on the house. The folks across the street still have their flag up.

You can lead a Phooph to the water of truth, but you cannot make him drink...

Not when it's polluted. Her, not him.

What's you next excuse for them?[/QUOTE]

phooph

06-23-2009, 10:47 AM

Oh, my mistake, I didn't know that N. Viet Nam, Laos and Cambodia were such shining examples of capitalism and democracy. LOL!!

Don't know how you inferred that from what I wrote. Are you deliberately misunderstanding me?

I'm confused, exactly how did you get that I was referring to Mexico as being a socialist heaven out of that?

Yes there are illegals from everywhere, but put them all together, and the Hispanics still out number them about 5 to 1.

How do you know that? Of course being right next door makes it convenient, but then so is Canada and that border doesn't have Minutemen patrolling it. How many Canadians do you suppose are here? I used to live in Maine and we had French Canadians entering the state in droves to harvest crops. Looked just like California at harvest time with all those families, complete with children, working in the fields and orchards. A lot of them didn't speak English, either. Insisted on speaking French.

I wasn't aware that the Europeans and Asians had dug drug and people smuggling tunnels under the oceans. You gotta watch out for those Canadian gangsters, because you don't be in their neighborhood after dark or they might force you to watch hockey.

They come in by ship and across both borders. Most come in from Canada because it's easier.

I have two Russian friends, they both have masters degrees, they pay their taxes, give genorously of the time and money to charities, are licensed and insured, buy American, speak English, have no infectous diseases and don't take a dime of social handouts. Their children are respectful and well behaved.

The kind of people that any country would be glad to have, any country but America because we have so many Illegals that the greencard lottery this year, is only 50,000 cards for 5 million applicants.

Coicidentally 50,000 is about the same number of Hispanics that entered the country illegally in the last 2 weeks or so, and the 100/1 odds are the about the same odds of any of those 50,000 to not sign up for food stamps and a MediCal card.

I live surrounded by Hispanics, probably Mexicans. I have no idea how many are illegal. Their cars and trucks sometimes wake me up in the early morning (like 5:00) going off to their jobs. Their children are well behaved and ask us nicely to return the ball that came over the fence and politely ask permission to pick the figs on our tree. I have tomato plants growing next to where some of them park and no one has snitched as much as a single tomato in all the years I've been growing them there (I only have three plants. I know every cluster). The family across the street had Univision here shooting a program on drug prevention among Hispanic youth. After 9/11 a lot of them put American flags on their vehicles and two who own houses hung flags on the house. The folks across the street still have their flag up.

You can lead a Phooph to the water of truth, but you cannot make him drink...

Not when it's polluted. Her, not him.

Speak2Truth

06-23-2009, 11:01 AM

liberals live in a fantasy land and it doesn't matter if there isn't truth and logic, because they believe that whatever they say must be logical and truthful because they said it, and it makes them feel good about themselves. It's all about the emotions, how they feel about things, not what's really happening right in front of them.

That is why Lenin called them "useful idiots". Socialists, who are well versed in psychology and Pavlovian manipulation, figured out that about 60% of any given human population is easily herded around by exactly what you describe. Socialists don't have to say anything factual - they need only have the right pose, tone of voice and stage performance. Obama is a classic example. So was Hitler, Castro, Chavez... Socialists carefully train and cultivate these performing monkeys to become "cattle herders".

That's what was explained to me by a Socialist agitator at a coffee house after I broke up his efforts to mess up the minds of some college students there. He laughingly said that he and I were a couple of cattle herders trying to corral the cattle in our own pens. I replied that he is a lying sack of sh*t and I'm telling the truth. He laughed all the harder. "Truth does not matter," he proclaimed, "only how they feel."

When the lie is exposed, they just change the facts to fit it, and because they believe it, it must be so, therefore you are obviously lying because they are never wrong,as to admit one wrong will cause the whole house of cards to fall down, and their very soul is linked to that house of cards.

That is a funny observation. I had attended anti-war marches for several years starting when Bush sent the tanks to finish the war in Iraq. The first year, all the ninnies were screaming that we were going in to seize Iraq's oil - and they were fuming mad, thanks to the careful emotional manipulations of their cowherders. The next year, it was obvious we were not stealing Iraq's oil, that Iraq was selling it on the open market. But the cowherder stood there and said, "You were right. You were right. You knew the truth, you spoke the truth, you were right." He got them all warmed up like this for a few minutes (and I shot video, may still have it somewhere) - when in fact THEY WERE WRONG!

But, he was programming their feeble little brains, getting them all prepped for another round of emotional manipulation.

No wonder Barack was elected, after his campaign office flew the flag of Cuba featuring Ernesto Guevara on the office wall. It's like a candidate, in 1950, putting a swastika flag and a portrait of Hitler on the wall and getting elected President. As in, OMFG HOW STUPID CAN THEY BE!!!

Being a liberal is not being part of a political party, it's not a philosophy or religion, it is a cult, a cult of personality, A God like speaker made up of emotions and lies, who mesmerizes his followers

I'd recommend the Obama supporters read the works of Solzhenitsyn but I am convinced Lenin was correct about them. They are incapable of learning.

But this was no accident, either. Here's a KGB defector explaining exactly what was done to those poor "useful idiots". I think every High School political class should show this.

Yuri Bezmenov - KGB explains psychological warfare inside US, demoralization
Dailymotion - Yuri Bezmenov - a video (https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32cxf_yuri-bezmenov)

Beginning of Yuri Bezmenov video series.
https://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jVZ4Lkm6JQw

THE SOVIET ART OF BRAINWASHING
A Synthesis of the Russian Textbook on Psychopolitics
THE SOVIET ART OF BRAINWASHING (https://www.fhu.com/articles/brainwashing1.html)

Speak2Truth

06-23-2009, 11:10 AM

Of course being right next door makes it convenient, but then so is Canada and that border doesn't have Minutemen patrolling it.

I believe that is because Mexico is actively sending in a hostile occupation force to push the Aztlan agenda here in the US. MS-13 is their militia. The Nation of Aztlan already has a parallel government functioning inside the US, a parliament, that last I read had about 9 states unified.

It is foreign, enemy conquest.

I think the Minutemen recognize the Clear and Present Danger in that invasion.

Some years ago, around 1995, the Aztlan movement leaders put a photo on their website of their meeting with Yasser Arafat to learn the process of Jihad. It begins by moving in a population to the targeted country and being the very nicest one can be. Keep a low profile, do not alarm the locals until there is sufficient strength to move to the next stage. The Aztlanist movement is building strength rapidly and is not exactly secretive about its hostile intentions. It has put its people into increasingly higher political offices such as Mayor Villaigarosa of Los Angeles. Once they are in place, they enact policies to help the movement secure power and bases of operation.

You should ask your neighbors if they'd vote for the Chicano who promises, on the basis of racial identity, to represent their interests. That's the greatest danger they pose.

Hundreds of thousands of activist marchers carried signs saying, "Today we march, tomorrow we vote." They make no secret of what they're doing.

someguy

06-23-2009, 12:49 PM

Exclusive: The Truth About 'La Raza' <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
by Rep. Charlie Norwood (https://www.humanevents.com/search.php?author_name=Rep.%20Charlie+Norwood)<o:p></o:p>
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:date Year="2006" Day="7" Month="4">04/07/2006</st1:date> <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Through public appearances, written statements, and on their respective websites, La Raza groups and allies must:

1. Denounce the motto "For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada," as repugnant, racist, and totally incompatible with American society or citizenship.

2. Acknowledge the right of all Americans to live wherever they choose in the <st1:country-region><st1:place>U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> without segregation.

3. Commit to sponsorship of nationwide educational programs to combat racism and anti-Semitism in the Hispanic community.

4. Denounce and sever all ties with MEChA and any other organizations with which they have ever been associated which held to the racist doctrines held by MEChA.

5. Acknowledge the internationally recognized borders of the <st1:country-region><st1:place>U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region>, the right of the citizens of the <st1:country-region><st1:place>U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> to determine immigration policy through the democratic process, and the right of the <st1:country-region><st1:place>U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> to undertake any and all necessary steps to effectively enforce immigration law and defend its border against unauthorized entry.

6. Repudiate all claims that current American territory rightfully belongs to <st1:country-region><st1:place>Mexico</st1:place></st1:country-region>.
<o:p></o:p>

The stupidity of the above quote is so easy to find out that I am completely shocked that this post got gratitude twice. La Raza has already responded to this exact same article stating that they never had ties with MECha, they never used MECha's slogan, and they believe in the United States' right to patrol its borders, etc. National Council of La Raza - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Council_of_La_Raza) This is a link to the response to the points made by the author of the above article, who is a congressman by the way. You can find the response in the criticism section where wikipedia has highlighted points from the article posted above.

Just go to their website. I cant find anythign that would suggest a revolutionary separtist group. In fact it seems very inviting and is completely in english. The only thing I cant seem to understand is why Ford, Wal Mart, and Citigroup (donators to La Raza) would want America to be overthrown by Latin American extremists.

La Raza has nothing to do with ethinic takeovers, or latin superiority. Its a non profit civil rights organization just like the NAACP, or CAIR. I bet you think CAIR is a civil rights group for terrorists just because its the Council on Arab and Islamic Relations. Not all Arabs are terrorists, and not all Latin Americans are striving to takeover the United States with their lack of morality.

Speak2Truth

06-23-2009, 01:24 PM

La Raza has already responded to this exact same article stating that they never had ties with MECha, they never used MECha's slogan, and they believe in the United States' right to patrol its borders, etc. National Council of La Raza - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Council_of_La_Raza) This is a link to the response to the points made by the author of the above article, who is a congressman by the way. You can find the response in the criticism section where wikipedia has highlighted points from the article posted above.

The problem with Wikipedia is that it is edited by the very people it is supposed to inform us about. For example, when I posted a photo of the "ANSWER" table displaying a banner saying "Socialism is the Future", it was removed hastily by a user whose own photo showed him holding a dual Mexican-American flag. Instead, a quote from ANSWER remained on the site denying the group had any Socialist ties.

Hm...

As for the La Raza crew, they are well represented in the illegal alien marches along with MECHA and other open-borders advocates.

Just go to their website. I cant find anythign that would suggest a revolutionary separtist group. In fact it seems very inviting and is completely in english. The only thing I cant seem to understand is why Ford, Wal Mart, and Citigroup (donators to La Raza) would want America to be overthrown by Latin American extremists.Ignorance and greed. They are selling out their own nation hoping to build up their customer base.

La Raza has nothing to do with ethinic takeovers, or latin superiority.* sigh *

Are you willing to be convinced? I've shot plenty of video of them on the streets, marching with the guys in Palestinian head scarves, MECHA, MS-13 and other bad elements.

If you are willing to completely change your mind, upon seeing more information, I may go to the trouble of providing it. My understanding of them is formed by first-hand experience. I am in a position to tell you exactly what they are up to despite their public denials. I may even go into my video archives and post some clips, if you're willing to side against them and with the USA.

La Raza lobbies for open borders, for the Mexican demographic and political conquest of the United States. It clearly fights AGAINST our nation and our Constitution. If you are an American, La Raza is your enemy. You will not like living in the nation they are working to create.

Exclusive: The Truth About 'La Raza'
by Rep. Charlie Norwood (https://www.humanevents.com/search.php?author_name=Rep.%20Charlie+Norwood)
- HUMAN EVENTS (https://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=13863)

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF LA RAZA (NCLR)
https://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=153

Largest Hispanic organization in the U.S.
Lobbies for racial preferences, bilingual education, stricter hate crimes laws, mass immigration, and amnesty for illegal alien
La Raza has nothing to do with ethinic takeovers, or latin superiority.

That is REALLY funny!

And, btw, they say "Chicano", not latin.

"Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada" [“For the race everything, outside the race nothing”] - Motto of the National Council of La Raza

toddwquigley

06-23-2009, 01:35 PM

Wow. I think all I need to really say here is Condy Rice's 911 hearing. Same exact situation (as the pelosi situation) where she was caught in a lie (big lie) and republicans were still on all fours licking her dirty crevice sparkling clean. Remember during those post iraq war/911 hearings when she said something like 'Well I think the exact words were Iraq is not a security threat' or something very similar to that. Sounds an awful lot like the Pelosi scandal described above. And plus we could argue which lies caused more destruction, but I think we know who'd win that one.

Now before you get ahead of yourselves, mind you that I belong to no political party. But what I really want to say is that obama followers are just like bush followers. They accept Obamas word as truth, just as repub's did when Bush sold his war and other policies.

So when Im reading this whole thread it makes me laugh very hard to know that the same people who were calling republicans stupid, and ignorant, are now the ones acting stupidly and ignorantly, and vice versa. Good luck to all you political thumpers (like bible thumpers) trying to claim superiority over the other peoples ideologies, for yours too, is a shame.

Did any of you notice during this last election that when you really got down and dirty on the big issues that are facing this country that both JM and BO were saying almost exactly the same shit?! I was watching these debates and looking at these candidates websites before the election in utter disbelief that anyone would really think that one of these dudes was better than the other. IF we were to make a list point for point about the candidates policies on iraq, afgahnistan, financial crisis, healthcare, taxes, and so on.... They, more or less were spouting the same talking points in different words. Neither of them had any ideas that would bring real change, and by change I mean doing something different than Bush!!!!!!!

SO now that BO is president, why is he better than Bush? Or why is he worse? Id love to know the differences that you people see in these two presidents.

Oh and Jeff, if you read this, dont give me that "oh, your so young" BS. I hope you dont speak to your children that way. And I hope you realize that no matter how old someone is or where they were brought up, they have something to offer you.

Maybe just a slap back into reality is what a man my age can offer you, so here it is: Get off yor goddamned high horse, humble yourself a little bit, and stop degrading other people with your false logic. ANd by false logic I mean your perception that Young=stupid!!!! Well thats just as logical as me saying Jeff=stupid! I rather like it, but I wont degrade myself by stooping to your level and actually applying that logic.

What, are you some kind of (insert adjective here)? You and I have had conversations before where I have directly stated that I am at best a libertarian, and I trust neither party.

I was the one that wrote dozens of posts comparing Bush and Obama, and reminding people that they are owned by the same puppet masters, with the same goals (them in charge, and everybody else working, and financially enslaved.

I was the guy who named them "Bushama"...

It's obvious both parties are nothing more than mind control for the masses, a way to convince the sheeple that they are in charge, even if that hasn't been true since Teddy Rooseveldt. When I brought up all of Obush's lies and inconsistancies, the mindless libs could think of nothing better than to call me a racist.

CFYI: I'm not a racist, I'm a culturist, I simplycan't stand the hispanic culture of lying, cheating, stealing and treating their women like shit. If you want a racist, then call Obama or Sotomayor, they just hate the white race regardless of your culture).

Quite honestly I do see one big difference between the leadership of the two parties: In their own way, the Right does care about the future of the country, while the left just uses hot emotional issues to extract more money and votes from their conl

The Republicans are among the World's most purposelessly stubborn and clandestine people, and the party leadership doesn't even pretend to care what the people think, and yet incredibly their people are OK with that. However, I have to give the nod to the liberals, nowhere do you find such an angry, self deluded, illogical and gullible people who are ruled by their emotions, as West County Liberals.

What I find truly entertaining is thinking of Obama still having to answer to a Bush (George HW Bush)

After reading Jeff's asinine (as usual) piece with it's made up and illogical "facts", I was inspired to write about how truly deluded, and blinded by their emotions, these liberals are. Of course Jeff's not the only one, there's Photoguy, independenteye and a couple others, but Jeff is the funniest because in his "great wisdom" of age, his so-called "facts" are just regurgitated liberal pap. Personally I haven't seen him have a single original idea, he just blindly follows the party line like a good little comrade. When a liberal quotes a liberal site, you can be sure that they believe with all their heart.

I think I shall coin a new phrase to describe the mindless followers of Obama, Pelosi and Gore, I shall call them: "Communist Green" (Sort of like Soylent Green). Their mascot shall be a black Pinocchio, dressed in green hemp giving the Nazi salute. They will make a great hood ornament on a Toyota "Pious", or you can mount them on top of your local wind mill or solar panels to help ward off nuclear power plants, and investigating Congressional accountants.

That's all for now, I have a couple others to answer before the "Thought Police" come to take me away for saying the emperor has no clothes.

someguy

06-23-2009, 02:08 PM

[quote=toddwquigley;92254]

Quite honestly I do see one big difference between the leadership of the two parties: In their own way, the Right does care about the future of the country, while the left just uses hot emotional issues to extract more money and votes from their conl

quote]

I just have one question for you: What evidence do you have that Bush or the republicans care(d) about the future of our country? That seems like a stretch, being as they have lead us up to the Obama administration and left us a massive debt, two wars, an unstable region in the world, as well as unstabble dictators, ruined our educational system, taxed the sh*t out us, ruined our healthcare system, made us one of the most hated countries in the world, made big banks and multinational coorporations massive amounts of money, purposefully screwed over the american people with the TWO Bush bailouts, disrespected the constitution, expanded presidential powers to unheard of amounts, tens of thousands of people, if not more, lost their homes under Bush. Not to mention Hurricane Katrina, I guess thats probably the best example of how much Bush and his fellow repub's care.

someguy

06-23-2009, 02:15 PM

The problem with Wikipedia is that it is edited by the very people it is supposed to inform us about. For example, when I posted a photo of the "ANSWER" table displaying a banner saying "Socialism is the Future", it was removed hastily by a user whose own photo showed him holding a dual Mexican-American flag. Instead, a quote from ANSWER remained on the site denying the group had any Socialist ties.

Hm...

As for the La Raza crew, they are well represented in the illegal alien marches along with MECHA and other open-borders advocates.

Ignorance and greed. They are selling out their own nation hoping to build up their customer base.

* sigh *

Are you willing to be convinced? I've shot plenty of video of them on the streets, marching with the guys in Palestinian head scarves, MECHA, MS-13 and other bad elements.

If you are willing to completely change your mind, upon seeing more information, I may go to the trouble of providing it. My understanding of them is formed by first-hand experience. I am in a position to tell you exactly what they are up to despite their public denials. I may even go into my video archives and post some clips, if you're willing to side against them and with the USA.

La Raza lobbies for open borders, for the Mexican demographic and political conquest of the United States. It clearly fights AGAINST our nation and our Constitution. If you are an American, La Raza is your enemy. You will not like living in the nation they are working to create.

Exclusive: The Truth About 'La Raza'
by Rep. Charlie Norwood (https://www.humanevents.com/search.php?author_name=Rep.%20Charlie+Norwood)
- HUMAN EVENTS (https://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=13863)

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF LA RAZA (NCLR)
https://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=153
<LI class=list_spacer><LI class=list_spacer><LI class=list_spacer>Largest Hispanic organization in the U.S.
Lobbies for racial preferences, bilingual education, stricter hate crimes laws, mass immigration, and amnesty for illegal alienThat is REALLY funny!

And, btw, they say "Chicano", not latin.

"Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada" [“For the race everything, outside the race nothing”] - Motto of the National Council of La Raza

I am very open to receiving any information that you have. I will asess it without discrimination and let you know what I find. But my research so far has not indicated anything to the degree of what you are saying. IN fact, you write that the slogan is "Por la raza todo, Fuera de la raza nada." But thats simply not true, at least they dont say that on their website and have denied that it is their slogan. So what proof do you have that it is? And lastly, thanks in advance for sharing your information with me.

toddwquigley

06-23-2009, 02:35 PM

Just go to their website. I cant find anythign that would suggest a revolutionary separtist group. In fact it seems very inviting and is completely in english. The only thing I cant seem to understand is why Ford, Wal Mart, and Citigroup (donators to La Raza) would want America to be overthrown by Latin American extremists.

La Raza has nothing to do with ethinic takeovers, or latin superiority. Its a non profit civil rights organization just like the NAACP, or CAIR. I bet you think CAIR is a civil rights group for terrorists just because its the Council on Arab and Islamic Relations. Not all Arabs are terrorists, and not all Latin Americans are striving to takeover the United States with their lack of morality.[/quote]

You are hilarious! What, "They said it so it must be so". Of course they are going to downplay that, duh...

La Raza is a lot more than what you claim they are, and until recently they used to admit some of their ties, such as the fact that all MS13 were La Raza members, and had a large say in operations since they are the security and enforcement arm.

La Raza is highly racist, in fact they turn everything into race, because in their minds, their race is superior to all others, and in fact just like every extremist group, their ultimate goal is World domination, and subjection of all other races.

I find it unfathomable that you can see through BHO, but insist that La Raza is just a nice peaceful group of Mexicans. In the past, they have been tied to many illegal and violent acts. La raza is not like the NAACP, it's more like the Neo Nazis, Black Panthers, or KKK.

Their own motto says it all: "For the race, everything, for outside the race, nothing". Hey let's try it this way "For the whites, everything, and if you are not white you get nothing", or "Black people get everything, and if you ain't black you don't get shit". Starting to sound racist yet???

"Ring, ring, Hello, Wakie uppie, this is reality calling, long time no see...."

someguy

06-23-2009, 02:43 PM

To:toddwq

Well, you sure made a lot of claims, but without any evidence whatsoever. Why should I believe you or them? They publicly state that slogan "for the race everything, out the race nothing" is not their slogan. They also publicly said that the name La Raza, is often mistranslated into the race, when in reality their intention is to say the people or community.

And Ill conceide to one of your points. La Raza did fund one of those extremist groups with 2500$ once. They admit it. They say it was for educational purposes, and they disagree with many of that groups ideas and statements.

Give me proof!!!

toddwquigley

06-23-2009, 03:01 PM

Don't know how you inferred that from what I wrote. Are you deliberately misunderstanding me?

You said it didn't make sense for Mexicans to move from socialism in Mexico (of course there really isn't any) to America to take advantage of our Socialism. I was just pointing out how your interpretation is completely off base because I wasn't specifically accusing the Mexicans of coming from socialism when we all know the Indo China is socialist (communist). Try and keep your stuff straight.

How do you know that? Of course being right next door makes it convenient, but then so is Canada and that border doesn't have Minutemen patrolling it. How many Canadians do you suppose are here? I used to live in Maine and we had French Canadians entering the state in droves to harvest crops. Looked just like California at harvest time with all those families, complete with children, working in the fields and orchards. A lot of them didn't speak English, either. Insisted on speaking French.

According to a Pew Hispanic Center (https://www.waccobb.net/wiki/Pew_Hispanic_Center) report, in 2005 (https://www.waccobb.net/wiki/2005) 57% of illegal immigrants were from Mexico (https://www.waccobb.net/wiki/Mexico), 24% were from other Latin American (https://www.waccobb.net/wiki/Latin_American) countries, primarily from Central America (https://www.waccobb.net/wiki/Central_America),<SUP id=cite_ref-Estimates_from_PHC_2-0 class=reference>[3] (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/#cite_note-Estimates_from_PHC-2)</SUP> 9% were from Asia, 6% were from Europe and Canada, and 4% were from the rest of the world.<SUP id=cite_ref-Estimates_from_PHC_2-1 class=reference>[3] (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/#cite_note-Estimates_from_PHC-2) </SUP>
<SUP></SUP>
<SUP>81%, looks like I was right on, and you are completely off base (Again)</SUP>
<SUP></SUP>
<SUP></SUP>

They come in by ship and across both borders. Most come in from Canada because it's easier.

Where have you been, nobody ships drugs anymore. The Mexicans have dug hundreds of tunnels, so you can just walk under the border. Some are big enough to drive a tractor trailer through. The Mexicans can get their product into the country so cheaply and easily that nobody else can compete. Furthermore, Mexico now produces some 90%+ of all the illegal "hard" drugs consumed in America (Cocaine, heroine, meth and PCP)

I live surrounded by Hispanics, probably Mexicans. I have no idea how many are illegal. Their cars and trucks sometimes wake me up in the early morning (like 5:00) going off to their jobs. Their children are well behaved and ask us nicely to return the ball that came over the fence and politely ask permission to pick the figs on our tree. I have tomato plants growing next to where some of them park and no one has snitched as much as a single tomato in all the years I've been growing them there (I only have three plants. I know every cluster). The family across the street had Univision here shooting a program on drug prevention among Hispanic youth. After 9/11 a lot of them put American flags on their vehicles and two who own houses hung flags on the house. The folks across the street still have their flag up.

Great, I know a couple of decent Mexicans too, but they are definitely not the majority, and they are quite aware of it. They cannot understand why their people act the way they do.

Not when it's polluted. Her, not him.

The water is truth, the only pollution is what you bring to it.

You can either accept the truth and live by it, or you can live in a made up fantasy land like the rest of the libs, Just don't expect anybody but other libs to buy into it...

toddwquigley

06-23-2009, 03:13 PM

To:toddwq

Well, you sure made a lot of claims, but without any evidence whatsoever. Why should I believe you or them? They publicly state that slogan "for the race everything, out the race nothing" is not their slogan. They also publicly said that the name La Raza, is often mistranslated into the race, when in reality their intention is to say the people or community.

And Ill conceide to one of your points. La Raza did fund one of those extremist groups with 2500$ once. They admit it. They say it was for educational purposes, and they disagree with many of that groups ideas and statements.

Give me proof!!!

Based on your logic, Bush and Cheney didn't do anything wrong, since we can't find where they admitted to it.

Go to one of their marches and listen to what they are chanting. It will sound like this: "Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada"

Look at the fact that the gangs are all represented there as both marchers and as security. These same gangs have assulted people that protest La Raza.

So I'm wondering, do you also support the white supremists, and the black power groups?

I've got to go, but I'll be back later. Maybe you will have a lucid moment.

someguy

06-23-2009, 03:16 PM

To:Quigly

I want to show you how your logic works.

Great, I know a couple of decent Mexicans too, but they are definitely not the majority, and they are quite aware of it. They cannot understand why their people act the way they do.

You just posted this statement. This supposedly is evidence that the majority of mexicans have no morals, and should not be part of United States culture.

Now, at first it seems logical, but you could say this about anyone. Example:

Great, I know a couple of decent Americans too, but they are definitely not the majority, and they are quite aware of it. They cannot understand why their people act the way they do.

And the best part is, it's true! I truly only know a few decent Americans, but does that mean that all other Americans shouldnt be allowed the right to live here? Of course not!

someguy

06-23-2009, 03:35 PM

Based on your logic, Bush and Cheney didn't do anything wrong, since we can't find where they admitted to it.

Go to one of their marches and listen to what they are chanting. It will sound like this: "Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada"

Look at the fact that the gangs are all represented there as both marchers and as security. These same gangs have assulted people that protest La Raza.

So I'm wondering, do you also support the white supremists, and the black power groups?

I've got to go, but I'll be back later. Maybe you will have a lucid moment.

First of all, here is my logic. I do think the bush and cheney administration did bad things. Why? Because I have EVIDENCE!!! I know for a FACT that the Iraq war is real. And I also know that Bush lied about the reasons for entering Iraq. Why? Because I have EVIDENCE. You see he said that Hussein had all these WMD's, which have yet to manifest. Thats EVIDENCE of wrong doing!!!!

I also never said that I support NCLR. You may think that, simply because Im asking you to prove what your saying. Im not against you here, but you cant just make a wild claims about the mexicans trying to take over the US without adequate proof! I dont support many groups my man. Im not that kind of guy.

So Ive been researching this all day long today, and I watched the President of NCLR on Lou Dobbs over youtube. You think that Lou Dobbs would have exposed her for the mexican supremesist that she really is. I thought it was interesting that all Lou had on her was that her organization's website had a link to another website that was telling mexicans what their rights are when being confronted by police. Which is information every person should be informed of.

Lou Dobbs has a big problem with this lady and her organization, and if he knew about the allegations you're making he would have slammed her hard! So if lou dog dont know dis shizit, how do you? Im not saying that Lou dobbs has to know everything before I consider it fact, (I know what you were thinking) but Im just pointing it out because I thought it was interesting.

Speak2Truth

06-23-2009, 10:28 PM

And I also know that Bush lied about the reasons for entering Iraq. Why? Because I have EVIDENCE. You see he said that Hussein had all these WMD's, which have yet to manifest.

Actually, the EVIDENCE proves that Bush was CORRECT, not that the mainstream media want you to know the truth...

Hundreds of WMDs discovered in Iraq
Bombshell report notes 500 chemical weapons including sarin, mustard gas, more to be found
Hundreds of WMDs discovered in Iraq (https://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50746)

CIA Statement on Recently Acquired Iraqi Centrifuge Equipment
CIA Statement on Recently Acquired Iraqi Centrifuge Equipment (https://www.fas.org/irp/news/2003/06/cia062603.html)

Nuke program parts unearthed in Baghdad back yard
CNN.com - Nuke program parts unearthed in Baghdad back yard - Jun. 27, 2003 (https://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/26/sprj.irq.centrifuge/index.html)

Hundreds of Chemical Weapons Found in Iraq Since 2003, U.S. Intelligence Report Says
NTI: Global Security Newswire - Hundreds of Chemical Weapons Found in Iraq Since 2003, U.S. Intelligence Report Says (https://www.globalsecuritynewswire.org/gsn/GSN_20060622_4F54DFFC.php)

Impeach The Media, Not Bush - CIA's man Wilson confirmed Bush's uranium statement
Accuracy In Media - Weekly Column - Impeach The Media, Not Bush (https://www.aim.org/publications/weekly_column/2003/07/17.html)

British Intelligence, Wilson's report CONFIRM Iraq's attempt to purchase uranium from niger in 1999
CNN.com - Straw defends UK uranium evidence - Jul. 13, 2003 (https://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/07/12/sprj.irq.uk.uranium.straw/)

As for La Raza, you cannot know whether Lou Dobbs even is aware of all the facts. Does he walk the streets, like I do, to find these sorts of things?

https://www.silcom.com/%7Evikman/PD/whitesgetout2.jpg

The EVIDENCE is there for anybody who wants to look.

They have every intention of replacing our Free Market Capitalist system with a Kleptocracy just like they have in Mexico.

So, why the public denials about what is so obviously true? Because their allies in government are funneling millions of taxpayer dollars into their pockets. If they publicly admitted what they are doing, perhaps giving Glenn Beck a sound bite to air, that might damage their cash flow from assets seized from us at gunpoint.

someguy

06-23-2009, 11:42 PM

[quote=Speak2Truth;92299]Actually, the EVIDENCE proves that Bush was CORRECT, not that the mainstream media want you to know the truth...

Hundreds of WMDs discovered in Iraq
Bombshell report notes 500 chemical weapons including sarin, mustard gas, more to be found
Hundreds of WMDs discovered in Iraq (https://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50746)

quote]

You know this first article you gave me to reference completely proves your wrong about there being legitmate WMD's, or rather the WMD's that bush said they had. It says clearly that they were inactive, and there was no evidence of a weapons program. Heres the quote:

"These are not the weapons that we went to war over," Democrat strategist Laura Schwartz responded. "It does not tell us that Saddam Husssein had an ongoing, active weapons program."
One senior Defense Department official told Fox News the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions. "This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."

ANd heres the response the article gives to those quotes above:

"Also appearing on Fox News was former U.N. weapons inspector Tim Trevan, who said some of the weapons could still have posed a danger, even in a deteriorated state."
Did you catch that? SOME of the weapons COULD still have posed a danger. Wow very factual! Do I even bother reading the other links? Its later so I wont. But Im still waiting on your info about la raza that you were talking about before.

toddwquigley

06-24-2009, 01:10 AM

[quote=toddwquigley;92254]

Quite honestly I do see one big difference between the leadership of the two parties: In their own way, the Right does care about the future of the country, while the left just uses hot emotional issues to extract more money and votes from their conl

quote]

I just have one question for you: What evidence do you have that Bush or the republicans care(d) about the future of our country? That seems like a stretch, being as they have lead us up to the Obama administration and left us a massive debt, two wars Two wars. Well since I adressed Iraq, you must be talking about Afghanistan, the home of the people that brought us 9-11. What are you trying to say, that we should have just left Osama and the Taliban alone? Brilliant idea..., an unstable region in the world, as well as unstabble dictators, ruined our educational system Explain how this is the fault of any one administration, the all powerful teacher's unions run the show, and mediocrity, taxed the sh*t out us Taxed the shit out of us, yep everybody except Reagan has been doing that since the 1930's, what's new there?, ruined our healthcare system We actually have a very good health care system, we have doctors that the rest of the World comes to, we have equipment we have designed and built that nobody else has. We have free health care for the young, the old and the truly broke, (everyone else can afford insurance but spends their money on other priorities), made us one of the most hated countries in the world, Like I give a shit what the French, Iran and etc. say. We were already the most hated country in the World because we do what's best for us first, we don't give other countries respect they don't deserve. The bad guys fear us, the other countries are jealous. Like I give a shit, it's not a popularity contest, and trying to be popular is a complete waste of time and money, that invariably bites you in the ass. made big banks and multinational coorporations massive amounts of money This is something new and different? Explain how signing Democrat written bills that limited regulation of outsourcingpurposefully screwed over the american people with the TWO Bush bailouts, Brought to you by a Democratic Congress and Senate disrespected the constitution Enemy combatents have zero rights until they are re-classified as POW's. The Constitution has nothing that applies to this situation, expanded presidential powers to unheard of amounts Happily supported by Congress and Senate in order to ensure security to a hysterical Nation after 9-11, tens of thousands of people, if not more, lost their homes under Bush. People lose homes because they are overextended, which is 100% their fault, not my concerne Not to mention Hurricane Katrina, Katrina, the first time in modern history that New Orleans flooded, the state said: "We have it under control", and then they said: I guess we don't have it under control, can you send help 3 days ago". Please tell me how it should have been handled given the circumstances, if anything, blame the State Government for wasting 3 days, after which we had to mobilize a massive aid effort. The Government brought in buses to take people to safety, and they refused to get on the buses because they wanted to go looting, or simply wanted to stay home (morons) I guess thats probably the best example of how much Bush and his fellow repub's care.

There is this liberal fantasy that Bush and Cheney started the war by lying about WMD's, so that they could make lots of money off of it. It is a fantasy though. As Cheney said (paraphrased):

"If I wanted to make money by manipulations, I would have done them right here where it's not in the public eye. All I had to do to make untold millions is to be friendly with the unions like the UAW and the Airline Employee Union. The notion that anybody started this war for personal gain is absurd, and completely illogical. The CIA gave us incorrct and out of date information on the WMD's. This is the same information that Clinton also believed was enough to justify an attack. We acted on the best information we had, in the same way the former administration had decided was most correct given that same information.".

I'm not a Bush fan, but I am not so ignorant as to jump on the "Bush lied, people died" bandwagon and make myself look like an idiot, when there are thousands of pages of CIA documents that clearly show that CIA was at fault. Bush told America what the CIA told him in good faith that it was correct, and based on that information, he called on attacking Iraq/Hussein in order to safeguard our interests in the Mid East, IE: Israel, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and for the benefit of having a country of bases on either side of Iran (which after extensive wargaming was shown to be the most effective of toppling Iran with a minimum of collaterol damage.

Given the best information we had, Bush made the right decision, and based on this information he was overwhelmingly supported by both parties, and the public. Bush didn't lie, he simply repeated the most accurate information he had at the time, and everyone agreed. In 2002 American intelligence had no assets in and on the ground in both Iraq and Iran, because Clinton had slashed the military budget for eight years to fund his "Here's some Government money, vote for me and my party" program.

Let's remember that there were WMD's in Iraq until shortly before all this all went down, and Hussein had no compunction about using them if he could get away with it, my God, he gassed his own people with WMD's.

What would have been the response if he did have WMD's and used them, and it was announced that the CIA had given this info to the White House, and they had dropped the ball? Did he have any other choice?

After we caught Hussein (Which in itself justifies the whole invasion), and it was discovered that there were no WMD's, we had two options: Cut and run, or stick around and help Iraq to reform their government as a government that is not a threat to the Mid East. Obviously many people think we should have just bailed and left Iraq a complete mess, but to me, that's totally selfish, we helped make the mess, and it's our job to help clean it up.

You also go on about the economy, well here's something I have a little understanding of, and like most of the really smart economists (those who's predictions are usually right) such as Noriel Rubini (who is always right) lay the blame on three things:

A) Clinton's (pressured by Obama's buddies Acorn) forced lending institutions to give credit to people that should have never been given credit. For example, allowing a person to count their unemployment and welfare as income to secure a mortgage is just idiotic, but that's what they did.

B) Clinton fought tooth and nail to keep regulations out of the investment market, because many of these people were big time, and big monied friends. Bush didn't help by leaving it as it was, but it was Clinton that ensured his hedge fund manager friends didn't have any silly regulations that might have helped to make them a bit more conservative and honest.

C) However, the biggest problem by far is the lazy, greedy and stupid American people who spent more than they had, believing that the market always goes up. Because of the potential for profits, the existing regulations which could have helped to temper this crash were completely ignored, and completely uninforced.

It's funny how everyone has forgotten the climate of fear due to 9-11. Let's remember that Bush won a second term even though everybody already knew all the dirt on him. I think it's funny how people now complain about it all. BTW: I didn't vote for him either time, but I would still prefer him to Obama, and by the time Obama leaves office, a lot of other people will be saying the same thing.

I'm not fond of Bush, and I don't think he did a good job, but I don't think he did such a completely horrible job as people like to think, he just could have done better, but his attitude got in the way. Much of what has been put on him is just plain un-true bullshit that has somehow gotten accepted as fact, because people are so ruled by their emotions.

toddwquigley

06-24-2009, 02:41 AM

Lou Dobbs has a big problem with this lady and her organization, and if he knew about the allegations you're making he would have slammed her hard! So if lou dog dont know dis shizit, how do you? Im not saying that Lou dobbs has to know everything before I consider it fact, (I know what you were thinking) but Im just pointing it out because I thought it was interesting.[/quote]

First of all, I have no idea who this Lou Dobbs is because I don't watch TV, or use mainstream web sites. i know the name but that's all, so I definitely don't care what he does or doesn't know.

You claim that since you didn't find anything on their website, or Wikipedia, that means something? I'm confused here, you want me to believe them talking about themselves, and Wikipedia is supposed to be objective?

Those would be the last places I would go to find out the truth about La Raza, they won't even admit that their name means: "The race". If it is supposed to mean something else, it would have an appropriate name. Raza means Race, La means: The. IE: La Raza means: The race. I am supposed to believe that it means something else, because now their website claims it means something different (It used to say it meant "The Race", before they got some bad press. So you and them can twist it all you want but the rest of us know them as La Raza, AKA: The Race, a racist, militant, and political Latino Action Organization.

Your next leap of imagination is to say that since they refuted this article, that means it isn't so. I'm amused by that one, are you really that nieve and gullible? Chevrolet say they make the best cars in the world, they have selected quotes that make this look so, yet they still folded because everyone knows they make crap (And because the UAW screwed everyone in sight).

Before they cleaned up their presentation a couple of years ago, La Raza was only too happy to be at any Mexican event, chantingtelling one and allI have personally seen members of La Raza chanting the phrase they claim doesn't have anything to do with them, and I've seen quite a bit of it on TV. On two occasions I have been witness to their Surrenneo/MF13 security force assulting white protesters. I have heard them state on TV and in person that it is their goal to reclaim Aztlan, and annex it to Mexico, to be a home for brown skinned people only. I have seen gangsters on TV saying that "All Mexican gangsters are also members of La Raza, and when they come together for La Raza, there is no infighting, because they all have a common enemy in gringos. They advocate for Mexicans to enter illegally, sign up for all the benefits they are eligible for, and to lie on their W-2's so that when they don't file a return, there is no excess tax money going back to the government to be used against them. In the past, they have bragged that tax money given to them to be used for a voter registration drive, was instead diverted into lobbying for open borders, and citizenship for anyone that comes here.

A couple of years ago, they started to get a lot of negative attention for their extreme views, so evidently they hired a PR specialist to give them a more politically correct public face, but make no mistake, their agenda hasn't changed, they are still a racist, anti-Gringo organization who's stated goal is the liberation of "Aztlan", from the US Government by simply breeding a majority population.

someguy

06-24-2009, 11:05 AM

First, You have yet to show me where your getting your information regarding La Raza. I have looked at several websites, not only wikipiedia and the La Raza website, but other reputable websites and interviews on youtube. Where is your information supporting your claims?!!!! Is it that hard for you to give me some real information? Ive only asked about four times now!!!!!! COme on! This is frustrating!

Second, Your a republican Todd. When I outlined everything that the Bush administration did, that resulted in harm on this country, you backed him all the way. Its everyone elses fault except Bush's. Now your in fantasy land here bro. Your carried away by your emotions, and your not thinking logically. Ill denounce everything you wrote. Ill put my response to yours in BOLD.

I just have one question for you: What evidence do you have that Bush or the republicans care(d) about the future of our country? That seems like a stretch, being as they have lead us up to the Obama administration and left us a massive debt, two wars Two wars. Well since I adressed Iraq, you must be talking about Afghanistan, the home of the people that brought us 9-11. What are you trying to say, that we should have just left Osama and the Taliban alone? Brilliant idea...,Well should we have left Osama alone? Seems like we have. Hes still out there you know, probably causing you to get zero sleep at night im sure. And yes we should have left the taliban alone, they are not Americas problem. Middel eastern countries are not our problem. How about taking care of America first? Like Mr. Ron Paul said, its not our responsibility to police the world. He also said that our bombing campaigns over the past decades are probably what pissed these people off in the first place. So another occupation is just gonna piss them off even more. Hes right. Plus, I dont think 911 was caused by terrorists from Afgahnistan. Thats the official explanation but it doesnt make any sense. How could the US GOvernement find a passport in the 911 rubble from a Saudi "terrorist". This doesnt add up to me and a lot of other people. So no, I dont think we should be in two wars right now! an unstable region in the world, as well as unstabble dictators, ruined our educational system Explain how this is the fault of any one administration, the all powerful teacher's unions run the show, and mediocrity,No child left behind. Need I say more. You know how that program worked, and if you dont well... get out of your closet! taxed the sh*t out us Taxed the shit out of us, yep everybody except Reagan has been doing that since the 1930's, what's new there?,Not much too new there, your right! A real president would abolish the IRS! ruined our healthcare system We actually have a very good health care system, we have doctors that the rest of the World comes to, we have equipment we have designed and built that nobody else has. We have free health care for the young, the old and the truly broke, (everyone else can afford insurance but spends their money on other priorities)The US is ranked number 37 by the WHO on healthcare behind countries such as COSTA RICA, CANADA, CHILE, SINGAPORE, and SAUDI ARABIA! well heres a great article for you to read on American doctors and healthcare in general. Medical Errors: 5th Leading Cause of Death in the United States « Jata Health News (https://jatahealth.wordpress.com/2009/03/23/medical-errors-5th-leading-cause-of-death-in-the-united-states/) . , made us one of the most hated countries in the world, Like I give a shit what the French, Iran and etc. say. We were already the most hated country in the World because we do what's best for us first, we don't give other countries respect they don't deserve. The bad guys fear us, the other countries are jealous. Like I give a shit, it's not a popularity contest, and trying to be popular is a complete waste of time and money, that invariably bites you in the ass. Its funny how you say you dont watch mainstream media, but this statement here sounds like bill oreily! Yeah i guess trying to be nice and get along with other countries is a bad idea!!! Ha! made big banks and multinational coorporations massive amounts of money This is something new and different? Explain how signing Democrat written bills that limited regulation of outsourcing Thats not a full sentence and I dont understand what your trying to say here. purposefully screwed over the american people with the TWO Bush bailouts, Brought to you by a Democratic Congress and Senate Thats exactly what IM saying! dem's and repub's are exactly the same! Anyone who thinks they are different and thinks that one cares and the other doesnt is stupid! disrespected the constitution Enemy combatents have zero rights until they are re-classified as POW's. The Constitution has nothing that applies to this situation, Im not just talking about enemy combatants, im talking about the patriot act, illegal wire tapping, secret prisons, going to war without congress approval, torture etc..expanded presidential powers to unheard of amounts Happily supported by Congress and Senate in order to ensure security to a hysterical Nation after 9-11,So what if it was passed by the congress and senate does that now wash bush's hands clean?He lied about the reasons for going to war. I just watched a bunch of his speechs from 2003 and 04 last week. Bush specifically said that if we invade iraq that we will rid our country of terrorists. False. He said they had WMD's. THats false, even though Speak2truth gave me plenty of links that claim there were wmd's but really it was 500 expired mustard gas bombs that pose no threat to anyone. You can make mustard gas anytime you like, all you need is some bleach and amonia to gain street credentials just like saddam hussein. Tell that to ya boyz in da yard G! Shit and you can actually acquire fresh mustard gas that works! Your a step ahead of Hussein! tens of thousands of people, if not more, lost their homes under Bush. People lose homes because they are overextended, which is 100% their fault, not my concerneAs a good economist once said (ron Paul) Its about over regulation that the Bush party enforced, as well as uninformed decisions by people. Not to mention Hurricane Katrina, Katrina, the first time in modern history that New Orleans flooded, the state said: "We have it under control", and then they said: I guess we don't have it under control, can you send help 3 days ago". Please tell me how it should have been handled given the circumstances, if anything, blame the State Government for wasting 3 days, after which we had to mobilize a massive aid effort. The Government brought in buses to take people to safety, and they refused to get on the buses because they wanted to go looting, or simply wanted to stay home (morons)Need I say anything back to this? I guess those morons deserved to sit on their roofs desperatly pleading for food, water, and shelter. Im sure they loved the sewage water, because their minds are so moronic that they didnt realize they were in the midst of a hurricane! You have go tot tell me where you came up with those ideas! I guess thats probably the best example of how much Bush and his fellow repub's care

Dude were not getting anywhere. Your the emotionally caught up person in this discussion and everyone can see that. I find this conversation to be very draining, and I dont dare continue to disprove your distorted point of view any longer. You are a republican. It is plain and simple to see. The defining characteristic of repub's and dem's alike is a lack of real information which keeps them in the loop of there ideaologies. I would suggest getting some of that real info before making a jackass out of yourself in a public forum by accusing others of doing exactly what your doing.

Speak2Truth

06-24-2009, 11:05 AM

[quote=Speak2Truth;92299]"These are not the weapons that we went to war over," Democrat strategist Laura Schwartz responded. "It does not tell us that Saddam Husssein had an ongoing, active weapons program."

The Democrat is lying, of course. These ARE the weapons that the UN searched for, for years, while Saddam moved them around to keep them concealed. They ARE the chemical artillery shells Saddam used to wipe out entire villages. They ARE the weapons the UN mandates ordered Saddam to hand over, the ones Clinton bombed Iraq repeatedly to try to compel Saddam to relinquish.

And what does Lying Laura make of the hidden centrifuge master copy?

Saddam was not merely required to stop active WMD production. He was required, as a condition of the temporary cease-fire, to relinquish all WMD materials, plans, components, manufacturing equipment and so on. Clinton called off the cease-fire because Saddam refused to do so.

Once again, the evidence PROVES Saddam guilty as charged.

The chemical artillery shells ARE easily refilled. Do you recall early war coverage showing 55 gallon drums of "pesticide" at the artillery loading sites? That "pesticide" is a deadly nerve agent. The news media quickly stopped talking about.

So, all that discussion about the condition of the filler in the prohibited WMD shells is irrelevant. They were easily restored to fully lethal condition.

And let's not forget the Uranium refinement centrifuge, Saddam's effort to obtain Uranium from Niger...

Isn't it hilarious that Joe Wilson's report actually confirmed the Niger Uranium bit, and CNN reported on it - but once Wilson started working for the John Kerry campaign and denying it, the newsies let him get away with it? Biased media.

The evidence PROVES beyond a shadow of a doubt that Saddam was, as UN Resolution 1441 reasserted, in defiance of the disarmament MANDATES.

Clinton was correct when he resumed full hostilities against Iraq.

It is time for you to adjust your worldview to fit the facts.

someguy

06-24-2009, 11:10 AM

[quote=someguy;92304]

The Democrat is lying, of course. These ARE the weapons that the UN searched for, for years, while Saddam moved them around to keep them concealed. They ARE the chemical artillery shells Saddam used to wipe out entire villages. They ARE the weapons the UN mandates ordered Saddam to hand over, the ones Clinton bombed Iraq repeatedly to try to compel Saddam to relinquish.

And what does Lying Laura make of the hidden centrifuge master copy?

Saddam was not merely required to stop active WMD production. He was required, as a condition of the temporary cease-fire, to relinquish all WMD materials, plans, components, manufacturing equipment and so on. Clinton called off the cease-fire because Saddam refused to do so.

Once again, the evidence PROVES Saddam guilty as charged.

The chemical artillery shells ARE easily refilled. Do you recall early war coverage showing 55 gallon drums of "pesticide" at the artillery loading sites? That "pesticide" is a deadly nerve agent. The news media quickly stopped talking about.

So, all that discussion about the condition of the filler in the prohibited WMD shells is irrelevant. They were easily restored to fully lethal condition.

And let's not forget the Uranium refinement centrifuge, Saddam's effort to obtain Uranium from Niger...

Isn't it hilarious that Joe Wilson's report actually confirmed the Niger Uranium bit, and CNN reported on it - but once Wilson started working for the John Kerry campaign and denying it, the newsies let him get away with it? Biased media.

The evidence PROVES beyond a shadow of a doubt that Saddam was, as UN Resolution 1441 reasserted, in defiance of the disarmament MANDATES.

Clinton was correct when he resumed full hostilities against Iraq.

It is time for you to adjust your worldview to fit the facts.

So is that a good reason to go to war with someone because they have expired mustard gas bombs that dont work?

Thats a terrible reason to kill millions.

Speak2Truth

06-24-2009, 11:25 AM

[quote=someguy;92255]Let's remember that there were WMD's in Iraq until shortly before all this all went down

Aside from the stuff that was found in Iraq, there is also a damning trail of evidence showing what happened to the stuff Sadam shipped out of Iraq in the six months that France bought him.

Let's not forget that Georges Sada, one of Saddam's top generals, openly explained (and wrote a book about) Saddam shipping stuff out to Syria and other places in order to embarrass the US when the US troops rolled in. Democrats worked hard to help Saddam achieve his goal, to bury or deny the facts that proved Saddam's guilt.

Here's another revealing chain of events...

Jordan WMD Plotter Confesses to Iraqi Involvement
NewsMax.com: Inside Cover Story (https://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/4/27/164917.shtml)

King Abdullah: Al-Qaida WMDs Came From Syria (Plot foiled for massive attack in Saudi Arabia)
NewsMax.com: Inside Cover Story (https://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/4/17/141224.shtml)

Report: Syria hiding Iraqi WMD - Sources say relative of President Assad smuggled arms to 3 places
Report: Syria hiding Iraqi WMD (https://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36463)

If true, it represents another huge story the mainstream media carefully avoided, just as they avoided talk of the Iraqi intelligence agent, Ramzi Yousef, who was behind the first World Trade Center attack in 1993 and the Oklahoma City bombing in collaboration with Terry Nichols.

The Big Lie is in full effect and it serves the Democrat/Communist Party.

Speak2Truth

06-24-2009, 11:33 AM

[quote=Speak2Truth;92323]So is that a good reason to go to war with someone because they have expired mustard gas bombs that dont work?

Of course they worked. It only takes minutes to refill them from those Nerve Agent containers at the munitions loading sites.

Thats a terrible reason to kill millions.

Aside from the silly number...

Why exactly DID Saddam start the war? Why did he try to conquer Saudi Arabia and Kuwait? Why did he threaten to cut off oil to the West? Why did he ally himself with radical Islamist terrorists? Why, when his army was driven back, did he torch Kuwait's oil fields and cause massive environmental destruction? Why, during the 1990s, did he refuse to comply with the terms of the temporary cease-fire he agreed to? Why did Clinton bomb Iraq repeatedly to try to compel him to obey? Why did Clinton call off the cease-fire and, with Congressional approval, set the course for destruction of Saddam's regime? Why, after Clinton's miserable failure, did Al Gore and GW Bush both promise to finish the job? Why, with Congressional approval, did Bush finish the job?

It was not merely because Saddam had sent agents to attack and kill Americans on US soil (World Trade Center 1993, Oklahoma City, World Trade Center 2001), it was also because Saddam had shown the other rogue nations that defiance WORKS! Bill Clinton was very clear on the reason to destroy Saddam's regime...

Clinton asserted that if Saddam "fails to comply, and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route which gives him yet more opportunities to develop his program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made? Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction."

The president's warnings are firm. "If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." The stakes, he says, could not be higher. "Some day, some way, I guarantee you, he'll use the arsenal."

Speak2Truth

06-24-2009, 12:43 PM

First, You have yet to show me where your getting your information regarding La Raza. I have looked at several websites, not only wikipiedia and the La Raza website, but other reputable websites and interviews on youtube.

Wikipedia and La Raza are the least reputable when it comes to information about La Raza. Wikipedia is edited by people who choose to remove unflattering information. La Raza denies in the public media what they make no secret of doing on the streets.

I have presented you with several information sources already including the La Raza posters posted around Los Angeles. You can choose to ignore them all you like. I can only show you the truth.

https://www.silcom.com/%7Evikman/PD/whitesgetout2.jpg

If you want to see them and their allies in action on the streets, order a video at:

DIVISION SIX (https://www.divisionsix.com/Catalog/view_item.php?item_ID=3)

Or, watch all the free videos on YouTube of them in action on the streets:

Reconquista Extremism
YouTube - Reconquista Extremism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOqzURrGe6Y)

MEChA SEIZES PUBLIC SCHOOLS WITH THREAT OF VIOLENCE
YouTube - MEChA SEIZES PUBLIC SCHOOLS WITH THREAT OF VIOLENCE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN-2Z7MwkgM)

Blowing the whistle on a La Raza school
Michelle Malkin » Blowing the whistle on a La Raza school (https://michellemalkin.com/2008/05/22/blowing-the-whistle-on-a-la-raza-school/)

LA RAZA WANTS YOU DEAD
YouTube - LA RAZA WANTS YOU DEAD (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAN4J84xU3g&feature=related)

If you are going to ask, don't ignore the evidence.

Braggi

06-24-2009, 02:50 PM

... You say 200 million North Americans were killed by Europeans - that's an awfully large number. ...

I agree 200 million is a high estimate. Check out the book "1491" if you want to learn what was here before the Europeans landed. A fascinating read apart from this conversation.

... You are making a lot of generalized assertions here, all of them boiling down to "Hate Europeans". I have to ask - would you prefer to live in the society that the Arabs created? How about Aztecs? Perhaps the Chinese? Or maybe the Somalis? Ethiopians?

Under what society would you prefer to live? ...

I am of European descent and married and procreated with a woman of similar background. I don't hate Europeans. I don't do a lot of hating. I don't have time for that.

I prefer to live in a society consciously created to support the common people as well as the privileged. Kind of like our Constitution and Bill of Rights outlines. That's a pretty good plan. Not a plan where corporations rule and the puppets in government jump when their strings are tugged. Not so different from what you want.

... And you guys keep claiming Bush started some sort of disaster - why can't you explain what you mean? You say nothing convincing that shows you have a factual basis for that assertion.

It's hard to answer because it's all so vast. It would appear you haven't been in the country or anywhere that media was available during the Bush ordeal (which we're still suffering the after effects of now).

Vic, he began the Failed War on (some) Terror in response to the Reichstag, er, I mean 9/11 attacks that he was warned of in advance in some detail. Look it up. I'm not a "9/11 Truth" nutcase. I believe Bush knew the attack was coming and purposefully did nothing to stop it, even going out of the way to prevent existing defenses from being used so the aftermath could roll out just as it did. So Bush and Co. could do the biggest power grab and money grab in history. Were you here? Do you remember? I was. I do.

Bush's father, Cheney, lots of their buddies kept the lion's share of hundreds of billions of dollars pumped into the war machine. Cost over runs and outright fraud and theft were rampant. For the first time in history we paid mercenaries to do the dirty work and their deeds still haven't all hit home. The Failed War on (some) Terror has created a vast terrorist network so it now has justification for its existence. It's so sick.

The Bush White House (directly) ordered Federal Reserve banks to put $12 billions in cash into tractor trailer rigs. Something like 16 tons of cash. Those rigs were flown to Iraq where the cash disappeared. There is no record of where any of it went. It was "given away." "Put into circulation." This is the biggest bank robbery in history and it barely made mention in the liberal US newspapers. It WAS a big deal in European newspapers. You can google up lots of stories about it. They're still out there. Bush is a criminal. You and I will be paying the bills for decades, should we live so long.

There's so much more. It goes on and on. There are websites listing his crimes. You could start here: Lie by Lie: The Mother Jones Iraq War Timeline (8/1/90 - 2/14/08) | Mother Jones (https://www.motherjones.com/bush_war_timeline)

Google "Bush timeline" and you'll see a lot of other sites. Read and learn.

-Jeff

Speak2Truth

06-24-2009, 04:42 PM

I've added "1491" to my reading list. Thanks for that!

I will be happy to kick Bush for the things he did wrong but I'll defend the things he did right. No outcome is perfect - but Bush corrected many of the mistakes of the Clinton Administration. Here we go...

Vic, he began the Failed War on (some) Terror in response to the Reichstag, er, I mean 9/11 attacks that he was warned of in advance in some detail.

It is not a "failed" war on terror any more than our "war on rape" is "failed". It will be an ongoing fight and has been since Thomas Jefferson fought off the Islamist aggressors 200 years ago. It will never end. All we can do is kick them hard enough that they back off a bit. In that regard, Bush did marvelously well, by taking down the regime that directly sent agents to attack the United States.

This is an important point: Before Saddam rampaged across the Middle East, he warned US Ambassador April Glaspie that if we "pressured" him individual Arab agents would strike inside the US. We did, they did. And we know who some of them were - Iraqi intel agents Ramzi Yousef and his buddy Yasin. Once Yousef was caught, his Uncle, Khalid Sheik Mohammed stepped in and took over for him.

Once Bush took down Saddam's regime, the attacks on our soil ended. Success! Bush did what Thomas Jefferson did - took the fight to the enemy and smacked them so hard they were unable to bring the fight to us.

In doing so, he won many allies even among the Sunnis, who initially fought against US forces in Iraq because they were Saddam's favored.

Iraqi neighbours rise up against al-Qa'eda
"Awakening" movements across Iraq are helping to rid Sunni neighbourhoods of extremist influence
Iraqi neighbours rise up against al-Qa'eda - Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/12/wiraq112.xml)

Al-Qaeda leaders admit: 'We are in crisis. There is panic and fear'
Al-Qaeda in Iraq faces an “extraordinary crisis”. Last year's mass defection of ordinary Sunnis from al-Qaeda to the US military “created panic, fear and the unwillingness to fight”.
Al-Qaeda leaders admit: 'We are in crisis. There is panic and fear' - Times Online (https://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article3346386.ece)

I believe Bush knew the attack was coming and purposefully did nothing to stop it

I will disagree with that for the following reasons:

1) The US government was warned in 1993 that Al Qaeda would hijack airliners. It was considered a real enough threat that Al Gore put out a report demanding airlines take very expensive measures to boost security. When the airlines poured cash into the Clinton/Gore re-election campaign, Gore withdrew the recommendations. And the threat never materialized. Yes, the style of attack was forewarned but how extreme must be the response to every different angle of attack Al Qaeda cooks up? I'm sure you would have joined others in calling Bush "Hitler" if he took the preventive measures against the hundreds or thousands of different types of attacks in the list, including preparations to shoot down hijacked airliners. Think of how that would have played out, right after he's elected - "BUSH PREPARES TO SHOOT DOWN AIRLINERS - ALL PASSENGERS WILL DIE"

2) If Bush knew, he got the information through a chain of command and lots of other people knew. Where are the details?

Bush's father, Cheney, lots of their buddies kept the lion's share of hundreds of billions of dollars pumped into the war machine.

How so? We know Cheney divested himself of financial interest in Halliburton when he became VP. We also know it was Bill Clinton who established the no-bid relationship between Halliburton and the Pentagon to streamline wartime operations, eliminating the months-long delays of bid processing.

Cheney doesn't gain financially from the contracts given to the company he once headed.
FactCheck.org: Kerry Ad Falsely Accuses Cheney on Halliburton (https://www.factcheck.org/kerry_ad_falsely_accuses_cheney_on_halliburton.html)

Halliburton Received No-Bid Contracts During Clinton Administration
During Clinton Administration, Halliburton Received $2.2 Billion From US Government For Work In Kosovo.
The Media Fund | Title: "Halliburton" (https://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1184989/posts)

Cost over runs and outright fraud and theft were rampant.

I don't doubt it. Just look at what happens inside the US, for example when congress seizes our cash to make payback to political supporters. No accountability, not even for the legitimate purposes of government (primary duty: Common Defense). Where lots of money moves around, people screw around with it. Everywhere.

For the first time in history we paid mercenaries to do the dirty work and their deeds still haven't all hit home.

Are you talking about Blackwater? They were hired by private corporations to defend infrastructure so our military could be free to pursue and attack the enemy. It sure beats a draft, doesn't it? Let's not forget Charlie Rangel tried to get a Draft started. I'm happier with hiring temporary defensive operators who can be relieved once their services are no longer needed.

The Failed War on (some) Terror has created a vast terrorist network so it now has justification for its existence.

You miss an important piece of history: It was our failure to fight back that created the vast terror network. During Clinton's years of treating Al Qaeda as civil criminals, they built a massive terror training college in Afghanistan. They churned out 20,000 graduates before Bush smashed them. And, our military obtained the school records, allowing many nations to track down and eliminate some of the graduates - who had been sent into countries all over the world to set up terror cells and training centers.

It was America's weak response that inspired rapid expansion of the terror networks. The only sensible response was the one Thomas Jefferson ... er, GW Bush employed. Kill them.

Maybe you would prefer they continued building strength unimpeded?

The Bush White House (directly) ordered Federal Reserve banks to put $12 billions in cash into tractor trailer rigs. Something like 16 tons of cash. Those rigs were flown to Iraq where the cash disappeared.

Are you talking about the Iraqis money, that had been temporarily frozen to prevent Saddam from using it?

WASHINGTON, Feb 6 (Reuters) - The U.S. Federal Reserve sent record payouts of more than $4 billion in cash to Baghdad on giant pallets aboard military planes shortly before the United States gave control back to Iraqis, lawmakers said on Tuesday. The money, which had been held by the United States, came from Iraqi oil exports, surplus dollars from the U.N.-run oil-for-food program and frozen assets belonging to the ousted Saddam Hussein regime.
Bills weighing a total of 363 tons were loaded onto military aircraft in the largest cash shipments ever made by the Federal Reserve, said Rep. Henry Waxman, chairman of the House of Representatives Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.

There is no record of where any of it went. It was "given away." "Put into circulation."

Right. It was used to pay police, soldiers, public works, reconstruction... it was Iraq's money anyway. How they spend it is up to them.

So far, you have presented me with no logical offenses.

I'll even praise Bush for putting our nation on the path to clean Hydrogen/Geothermal energy (which Democrats have frantically derailed, since they can't carbon-tax it). I'll praise Bush for using the US Navy's budget to standardize BioDiesel processing from waste grease, turning a massive pollution problem into fuel (I personally shot news coverage of the test systems at Pt. Hueneme).

But I'll say Bush should have been impeached on the 100th day of his Presidency for failing in his Constitutional mandate to "repel invasion" by stopping the Mexican occupation forces from moving in. I now move that assertion to Obama. Impeach each and every criminal in government who is selling out our nation to the Mexican conquest.

President Eisenhower knew his duty and performed it.

"Operation Wetback"
How Eisenhower solved illegal border crossings from Mexico
How Eisenhower solved illegal border crossings from Mexico | csmonitor.com (https://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html)

Speak2Truth

06-24-2009, 04:53 PM

BTW - that Mother Jones timeline has an awful lot missing. Try this one:

The Iraq Crisis and War - Timeline - a chronology of events (https://www.mideastweb.org/iraqtimeline.htm)

This does not include all the military strikes Clinton made against Iraq but it gives a more detailed sequence of events.

Braggi

06-24-2009, 05:07 PM

BTW - that Mother Jones timeline has an awful lot missing. Try this one:

I think they were focused on provable lies.

-Jeff

someguy

06-24-2009, 05:17 PM

If you want to see them and their allies in action on the streets, order a video at:

DIVISION SIX (https://www.divisionsix.com/Catalog/view_item.php?item_ID=3)

Or, watch all the free videos on YouTube of them in action on the streets:

Reconquista Extremism
YouTube - Reconquista Extremism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOqzURrGe6Y)

MEChA SEIZES PUBLIC SCHOOLS WITH THREAT OF VIOLENCE
YouTube - MEChA SEIZES PUBLIC SCHOOLS WITH THREAT OF VIOLENCE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN-2Z7MwkgM)

Blowing the whistle on a La Raza school
Michelle Malkin » Blowing the whistle on a La Raza school (https://michellemalkin.com/2008/05/22/blowing-the-whistle-on-a-la-raza-school/)

LA RAZA WANTS YOU DEAD
YouTube - LA RAZA WANTS YOU DEAD (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAN4J84xU3g&feature=related)

If you are going to ask, don't ignore the evidence.

Dude, these videos are crap!These are outright, blatant propaganda videos. Not a drop of real information!!!!!!!!

What the f*ck is wrong with you? Did you think I wasnt going to watch these videos or what?

You have no shame sir.

Speak2Truth

06-24-2009, 09:23 PM

Dude, these videos are crap!These are outright, blatant propaganda videos. Not a drop of real information!!!!!!!!

Big Smile

I am laughing my ass off at you!!

They are full of real information. Especially THIS one, which is actually an excerpt from the DVD I linked to:

Reconquista Extremism
YouTube - Reconquista Extremism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOqzURrGe6Y)

You blind yourself to the truth that is right in front of your eyes. You accept the denials of a La Raza representative, you accept the writings on Wikipedia that are edited by La Raza... yet you cannot accept the live video of them on the streets of Los Angeles.

THAT is La Raza in action. Accompanying them are MS-13, Palestinian-style Jihadists screaming "Intifada", MECHA, Socialist Workers Party...

I traveled to Los Angeles and saw it for myself. Never, EVER will La Raza deceive me!

Speak2Truth

06-24-2009, 09:44 PM

I think they were focused on provable lies.

Well, I hope I've provided enough information to show you that many of the supposed "provable lies" are in fact efforts to deceive. Every one, so far.

I hope I've shown you some basic truths that might help correct your worldview.

Saddam was caught red-handed with prohibited WMD and manufacturing equipment.

Bush was correct on the assertion Saddam tried to obtain uranium from Niger.

Bush struck the enemies responsible for attacks on our soil, severely damaging their ability to repeat that performance.

Cheney did not profit from Halliburton's work in Iraq.

The money Bush ordered to be sent to Iraq belonged to Iraq - it would have been a massive robbery of the Iraqi people had he not done so.

And so on.

I've noticed a lot of lies spread to attack Bush - by Democrats who insisted Saddam absolutely had to be taken down. They changed their tune for political expedience one Bush got elected.

There are valid misdeeds one can pin on Bush. Why don't Democrats do it?

Failure to secure the Southern border is number one. That's an impeachable offense.

phooph

06-24-2009, 09:53 PM

Unfortunately I have more things to do than keep up with threads on Wacco :juggle: so I will pop in with a post when I have a minute or two.

I like to stick with facts and not political spin so here's my post on WMDs in Iraq (no, Saddam was not a Sunday school teacher):

Dissatisfied with UN weapons inspectors, Scott Ritter and Hans Blix, the Bush administration created the Iraq Survey Group, a US weapons inspection program that employed thousands of inspectors to comb Iraq for WMDs. Bush hand picked the leaders of these teams from among those who were behind his war agenda, the first being David Kay, and the second being Charles Duelfer (after Kay disappointed them by finding no viable WMDs or active production). Unfortunately for the Bushies, Duelfer and his 16,000 inspectors came to the same conclusion. Lots of evidence of past programs and hastily destroyed documents and other evidence but no working weapons, no facilities for production and no comprehensive plan of action. Duelfer, by the way, is the guy who uncovered the Oil for Food fraud Saddam was pulling off back in the 90s, a scam in which some US oil companies were complicit.

David Kay's report. This is just the brief he gave to congress:
Text of Iraq weapons inspector David Kay's report *LINK* (https://www.uscrusade.com/forum/config.pl/noframes/read/1402)

I watched some of Kay's report on C-span and heard him say he did find weapons programs but only on paper. No viable weapons, no stockpiles of materials, no production facilities, just lots of old broken equipment left over from Gulf War I. When I went to see how Fox News handled this they lead the story with the statement that Kay had found WMDs and showed Kay's testimony up to the point where he said 'but only on paper' and by cutting off the 'only on paper' part they essentially made him say something he did not.

Charles Duelfer's report, the whole thing:
https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/general-reports-1/iraq_wmd_2004/index.html

Article that sums up Duelfer's findings:
Inspector says Iraq had no WMD - Conflict in Iraq- msnbc.com (https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6190720/)

[quote=someguy;92304]

The Democrat is lying, of course. These ARE the weapons that the UN searched for, for years, while Saddam moved them around to keep them concealed. They ARE the chemical artillery shells Saddam used to wipe out entire villages. They ARE the weapons the UN mandates ordered Saddam to hand over, the ones Clinton bombed Iraq repeatedly to try to compel Saddam to relinquish.

And what does Lying Laura make of the hidden centrifuge master copy?

Saddam was not merely required to stop active WMD production. He was required, as a condition of the temporary cease-fire, to relinquish all WMD materials, plans, components, manufacturing equipment and so on. Clinton called off the cease-fire because Saddam refused to do so.

Once again, the evidence PROVES Saddam guilty as charged.

The chemical artillery shells ARE easily refilled. Do you recall early war coverage showing 55 gallon drums of "pesticide" at the artillery loading sites? That "pesticide" is a deadly nerve agent. The news media quickly stopped talking about.

So, all that discussion about the condition of the filler in the prohibited WMD shells is irrelevant. They were easily restored to fully lethal condition.

And let's not forget the Uranium refinement centrifuge, Saddam's effort to obtain Uranium from Niger...

Isn't it hilarious that Joe Wilson's report actually confirmed the Niger Uranium bit, and CNN reported on it - but once Wilson started working for the John Kerry campaign and denying it, the newsies let him get away with it? Biased media.

The evidence PROVES beyond a shadow of a doubt that Saddam was, as UN Resolution 1441 reasserted, in defiance of the disarmament MANDATES.

Clinton was correct when he resumed full hostilities against Iraq.

It is time for you to adjust your worldview to fit the facts.

someguy

06-24-2009, 10:10 PM

[quote=phooph;92365]

Just to clear one thing up. I did not say the above statement that im quoted as saying on phoophs post. That was Speak2truth, not me.

someguy

06-24-2009, 10:31 PM

Big Smile

I am laughing my ass off at you!!

They are full of real information. Especially THIS one, which is actually an excerpt from the DVD I linked to:

Reconquista Extremism
YouTube - World Of Warcraft Freakout (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oepNCiHA1hM&feature=popular)

You blind yourself to the truth that is right in front of your eyes. You accept the denials of a La Raza representative, you accept the writings on Wikipedia that are edited by La Raza... yet you cannot accept the live video of them on the streets of Los Angeles.

THAT is La Raza in action. Accompanying them are MS-13, Palestinian-style Jihadists screaming "Intifada", MECHA, Socialist Workers Party...

I traveled to Los Angeles and saw it for myself. Never, EVER will La Raza deceive me!

Umm, that video 'Reconquista extremism' was not very informative. It was two hispanic people yelling racist insults at white people (probably).

So Im asking myself as I watch this, who are these people and how are they connected to NCLR? But sadly, I never seem to find out that information.

So I guess that what I am saying to you is that an informative video would have answered that question.

So I ask you, what did you find informative in this video? Since you did say this one was especially informative. Also, where did you find the information that connected these two people and National Council por La Raza? Mind you the NCLR has to be connected to these people for your case to be made, now make it......

Speak2Truth

06-24-2009, 10:52 PM

I watched some of Kay's report on C-span and heard him say he did find weapons programs but only on paper. No viable weapons, no stockpiles of materials, no production facilities, just lots of old broken equipment left over from Gulf War I.

Yes, that was long ago. Since then, the uranium centrifuge equipment was found as well as the chemical artillery shells.

The President tells five of his Secret Service guys to go find Easter Eggs on the White House lawn. Four come back and report that they did not find any. The fifth comes back a while later with some Easter Eggs. Were there Easter Eggs?

The links I provided describe the actual chemical artillery shells, the physical centrifuge master copy... ALL the old "I did not find it" reports are invalidated by what has been found and reported to Congress.

Braggi

06-24-2009, 11:01 PM

Well, I hope I've provided enough information to show you that many of the supposed "provable lies" are in fact efforts to deceive. Every one, so far...

Well, no.

... Saddam was caught red-handed with prohibited WMD and manufacturing equipment. ...

Um, no. There was nothing except shredded paper. No machinery. No program. No plans. That was all dismantled by 1995 and Bush knew it because our "intelligence" people had Saddam's son in law here, in the US, and he described how each of the programs had been dismantled. He was Saddam's WMD program director. When he returned to Iraq Saddam had him killed for talking to the US.

... Bush was correct on the assertion Saddam tried to obtain uranium from Niger. ...

Underline "tried" and it would have been pointless since he had no program, no machinery, no warhead and no missile to put it in. Also, there is little evidence that he even tried. This story was created after the fact when the "document" in question turned out to be a clear forgery.

... Bush struck the enemies responsible for attacks on our soil, severely damaging their ability to repeat that performance. ...

This is your fantasy and that of some right wing nuts, but isn't well supported by facts.

... Cheney did not profit from Halliburton's work in Iraq. ...

You don't understand how political payoffs are made. Cheney will give a "speech" at a KBR "retreat" on some private island and will receive a large deposit in his Nigerian bank account in payment. Could happen next week or next year. These things are paid off in the future. All former big name politicians command large "speaker's honorariums." Right? It's the way business is done. You think it's because they're such good speakers? Why was Ronald Reagan given $2 million for a 15 minute speech in front of a room full of Japanese businessmen who didn't understand English two weeks after he left office? You figure it out.

... The money Bush ordered to be sent to Iraq belonged to Iraq - it would have been a massive robbery of the Iraqi people had he not done so. ...

But it was a robbery. That money was earmarked to reimburse the US taxpayers for "liberating" Iraq from Saddam. But you don't remember that speech Bush gave. I do. Also, who was it given to? It was loaded into caravans of trucks and cars. Trunks were filled. Humvees were loaded. Where did it go? Who did it go to? Friends of G.W.? That's who knew about the delivery. I didn't. My friends in Baghdad weren't informed. Were any people you know informed? That money was stolen. The Bush White House stole it. And it was closer to $12 billion. The numbers were not well recorded so it's not clear exactly what the total was. It was a lot. The biggest cash heist in history.

... There are valid misdeeds one can pin on Bush. Why don't Democrats do it? ...

The Democrats are counting on solid citizens such as yourself. Carry on!

-Jeff

Speak2Truth

06-24-2009, 11:03 PM

Umm, that video 'Reconquista extremism' was not very informative. It was two hispanic people yelling racist insults at white people (probably).

So Im asking myself as I watch this, who are these people and how are they connected to NCLR? But sadly, I never seem to find out that information.

So, I will give you information. I shot that video myself. It is a small excerpt from about six hours of tapes I shot at various illegal immigration events in Los Angeles.

At that particular event and a later one in the same location, the "Viva La Raza" crowd were joined by MS-13, guys in Palestinian head scarves screaming "Intifada", various Communist/Socialist groups, MECHA, red-hat Progressives (who moved little children up to the police shield line to try to get them hurt), and all sorts of bad apples. The "We're Taking It Back" T-shirts were abundant.

I shot coverage for Charles Kirkby, a TV personality, who later provided it to Joe Turner who led a group called Save Our State. They were protesting a taxpayer-funded monument that insisted the land will be Mexican again. Naturally, the Leftist/Aztlanists/La Raza mob appeared to hassle them. The DVD I linked contains some of the footage that Kirkby put together to show Congress (through Tom Tancredo) what happened there. I personally think a new one should be made including the later footage we shot - some hot stuff.

Those "la Raza" guys were screaming "Brown Pride", "Europeans go back to Europe", "Coconut" (a derogatory term for Chicanos on the other side supporting America), "Malinche" and all sorts of nasty racist stuff. The MS-13 guys were flashing their hand signs, wearing bandannas over their faces (you can see a couple in that clip). The Intifada guys - jeeze.

That brief clip is what La Raza does on the streets. Sure, there's more, but if you are not interested in learning something I can't help you by showing you more.

La Raza is the enemy of the United States and makes no secret of it - except when their representatives deny it on mainstream TV.

I know their denials are lies because I've seen first-hand what they are really up to.

Open your eyes. Seek the truth. I did.

Speak2Truth

06-24-2009, 11:09 PM

Um, no. There was nothing except shredded paper. No machinery. No program. No plans.

How many times must you see the reports of ACTUAL HARDWARE FOUND before it sinks in?

PLEASE LEARN SOMETHING TONIGHT.

CIA Statement on Recently Acquired Iraqi Centrifuge Equipment
CIA Statement on Recently Acquired Iraqi Centrifuge Equipment (https://www.fas.org/irp/news/2003/06/cia062603.html)

Nuke program parts unearthed in Baghdad back yard
CNN.com - Nuke program parts unearthed in Baghdad back yard - Jun. 27, 2003 (https://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/26/sprj.irq.centrifuge/index.html)

Hundreds of WMDs discovered in Iraq
Bombshell report notes 500 chemical weapons including sarin, mustard gas, more to be found
Hundreds of WMDs discovered in Iraq (https://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50746)

Hundreds of Chemical Weapons Found in Iraq Since 2003, U.S. Intelligence Report Says
NTI: Global Security Newswire - Hundreds of Chemical Weapons Found in Iraq Since 2003, U.S. Intelligence Report Says (https://www.globalsecuritynewswire.org/gsn/GSN_20060622_4F54DFFC.php)

All the denials in the world cannot change the FACT that the hardware WAS FOUND. Those WERE among the items the UN inspectors sought throughout the 1990s. Saddam was ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED to hand them over when he agreed to the cease-fire terms - but he defied the mandates.

SADDAM IS GUILTY AS CHARGED.

And let's not forget the FACT of his further violation - attempting to obtain uranium from Niger. GUILTY!

Impeach The Media, Not Bush - CIA's man Wilson confirmed Bush's uranium statement
Accuracy In Media - Weekly Column - Impeach The Media, Not Bush (https://www.aim.org/publications/weekly_column/2003/07/17.html)

British Intelligence, Wilson's report CONFIRM Iraq's attempt to purchase uranium from niger in 1999
CNN.com - Straw defends UK uranium evidence - Jul. 13, 2003 (https://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/07/12/sprj.irq.uk.uranium.straw/)

Dude, read, learn.

Speak2Truth

06-24-2009, 11:15 PM

But it was a robbery. That money was earmarked to reimburse the US taxpayers for "liberating" Iraq from Saddam.

SHOW ME. Time to post some hard information supporting your claim.

Dude, you would HAVE to hate Bush if he kept that money in the US. It belonged to Iraq! It was their Oil for Food money as well as money from the sale of their oil! It was Iraqi assets that were frozen to keep them out of Saddam's hands.

Democrats screamed that Bush was going to pillage Iraq - but you are angry that he actually gave them their money back? Holy smokes.

You don't understand how political payoffs are made. Cheney will give a "speech" at a KBR "retreat" on some private island and will receive a large deposit in his Nigerian bank account in payment. Could happen next week or next year.

All these theories about what "could" be done are irrelevant.

SHOW ME WHAT WAS DONE.

I go out of my way to provide you with links to hard data. I showed you that Cheney divested himself of Halliburton to ensure there would be no conflict of interest. Here it is AGAIN.

Cheney doesn't gain financially from the contracts given to the company he once headed.
https://www.factcheck.org/kerry_ad_falsely_accuses_cheney_on_halliburton.html

Your turn.

phooph

06-24-2009, 11:31 PM

A bit more to add here –

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="https://www.youtube.com/v/cqxNnjLnNFE&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/cqxNnjLnNFE&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I especially liked the part where Bush says he's not concerned about bin Ladin. https://www.oilempire.us/oil-jpg/bush_is_clueless.gif

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Plans For Iraq Attack Began On 9/11 - CBS News (https://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/04/september11/main520830.shtml)

Did Bush Press For Iraq-9/11 Link? (https://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0321-02.htm)

James Baker and Brent Scowcroft, who both served in the Reagan and Bush 1 administrations, said in an interview on Public Television I watched that the neocons tried to sell a second war in Iraq to Bush Sr. (after he stopped short of evicting Saddam) but he just called them The Crazies so then they approached Clinton about it, who also said no. Frustrated with that they had a bright idea. They knew a dummy in Texas who was an easy mark and they talked him into running for president with the promise he could be twice the man his father was by finishing the job his father wouldn't. I am paraphrasing, of course, but this is from Republicans with street cred.

https://select.nytimes.com/2006/07/21/opinion/21krugman.html?_r=1&hp

Regarding Ramzi Yousef, this is #2 in a series. They go on with a link to the next installment at the bottom of each page:
CBC: The Secret History of 9/11 : al-Qaeda, a New Threat (https://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/secrethistory/timeline2.html)

[quote=toddwquigley;92306]

Aside from the stuff that was found in Iraq, there is also a damning trail of evidence showing what happened to the stuff Sadam shipped out of Iraq in the six months that France bought him.

Let's not forget that Georges Sada, one of Saddam's top generals, openly explained (and wrote a book about) Saddam shipping stuff out to Syria and other places in order to embarrass the US when the US troops rolled in. Democrats worked hard to help Saddam achieve his goal, to bury or deny the facts that proved Saddam's guilt.

Here's another revealing chain of events...

Jordan WMD Plotter Confesses to Iraqi Involvement
NewsMax.com: Inside Cover Story (https://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/4/27/164917.shtml)

King Abdullah: Al-Qaida WMDs Came From Syria (Plot foiled for massive attack in Saudi Arabia)
NewsMax.com: Inside Cover Story (https://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/4/17/141224.shtml)

Report: Syria hiding Iraqi WMD - Sources say relative of President Assad smuggled arms to 3 places
Report: Syria hiding Iraqi WMD (https://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36463)

If true, it represents another huge story the mainstream media carefully avoided, just as they avoided talk of the Iraqi intelligence agent, Ramzi Yousef, who was behind the first World Trade Center attack in 1993 and the Oklahoma City bombing in collaboration with Terry Nichols.

The Big Lie is in full effect and it serves the Democrat/Communist Party.

Speak2Truth

06-25-2009, 12:57 AM

Trust the Newsies to get it wrong, perhaps intentionally:

CBS News has learned that barely five hours after American Airlines Flight 77 plowed into the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld was telling his aides to come up with plans for striking Iraq — even though there was no evidence linking Saddam Hussein to the attacks.

In fact, we knew Ramzi Yousef, bomb plotter for the first World Trade Center attack and likely the Oklahoma City bombing, was an Iraqi intelligence agent. Saddam had warned that he would send "individual Arabs" into the US to strike and he apparently followed through. So, plans to strike Iraq were actually in the works before Bush was ever elected - and Gore was formulating his own operation to send in the tanks according to his VP nominee, Joe Lieberman.

Manstream newsies work hard to confuse these issues and to conceal information that would help the general public really understand WHY things are done.

THE WORLD TRADE CENTER BOMB:
Who is Ramzi Yousef? And Why It Matters
THE WORLD TRADE CENTER BOMB: Who is Ramzi Yousef? And Why It Matters - The National Interest, Winter, 1995/96 (https://www.fas.org/irp/world/iraq/956-tni.htm)

Ramzi Yousef - Convicted mastermind of 1993 WTC bombing
Came to US with Iraqi passport
CNN.com - Top terrorist convictions upheld - Apr. 4, 2003 (https://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/04/04/terrorism.yousef/)

Inside a 9/11 mastermind's interrogation - Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, uncle of Ramzi Yousef
https://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/22/america/22ksm.php

As for "no evidence"... well, aside from the Iraqi operators involved in the first and second WTC attacks (trainees of Salman Pak for the second), Saddam was not shy about taking credit for his great victory over the US.

https://www.silcom.com/%7Evikman/Politics/SaddamMuralWTC.jpg

Folks like to claim Bush was "clueless" - but he certainly outsmarted everyone who needed to be outsmarted. I sometimes wondered if he cultivated that image and was laughing at people who fell for it.

Sure, he was not a slick stage performer like Obama. But clueless? No. He went after and successfully eliminated the targets that needed eliminating. He succeeded after Clinton failed us for 8 years.

toddwquigley

06-25-2009, 02:30 AM

First, You have yet to show me where your getting your information regarding La Raza. I have looked at several websites, not only wikipiedia and the La Raza website, but other reputable websites and interviews on youtube. Where is your information supporting your claims?!!!! Is it that hard for you to give me some real information? Ive only asked about four times now!!!!!! COme on! This is frustrating!

Second, Your a republican Todd. When I outlined everything that the Bush administration did, that resulted in harm on this country, you backed him all the way. Its everyone elses fault except Bush's. Now your in fantasy land here bro. Your carried away by your emotions, and your not thinking logically. Ill denounce everything you wrote. Ill put my response to yours in BOLD.

I just have one question for you: What evidence do you have that Bush or the republicans care(d) about the future of our country? That seems like a stretch, being as they have lead us up to the Obama administration and left us a massive debt, two wars Two wars. Well since I adressed Iraq, you must be talking about Afghanistan, the home of the people that brought us 9-11. What are you trying to say, that we should have just left Osama and the Taliban alone? Brilliant idea...,Well should we have left Osama alone? Seems like we have. Hes still out there you know, probably causing you to get zero sleep at night im sure. And yes we should have left the taliban alone, they are not Americas problem. Middel eastern countries are not our problem. How about taking care of America first? Like Mr. Ron Paul said, its not our responsibility to police the world. He also said that our bombing campaigns over the past decades are probably what pissed these people off in the first place. So another occupation is just gonna piss them off even more. Hes right. Plus, I dont think 911 was caused by terrorists from Afgahnistan. Thats the official explanation but it doesnt make any sense. How could the US GOvernement find a passport in the 911 rubble from a Saudi "terrorist". This doesnt add up to me and a lot of other people. So no, I dont think we should be in two wars right now! an unstable region in the world, as well as unstabble dictators, ruined our educational system Explain how this is the fault of any one administration, the all powerful teacher's unions run the show, and mediocrity,No child left behind. Need I say more. You know how that program worked, and if you dont well... get out of your closet! taxed the sh*t out us Taxed the shit out of us, yep everybody except Reagan has been doing that since the 1930's, what's new there?,Not much too new there, your right! A real president would abolish the IRS! ruined our healthcare system We actually have a very good health care system, we have doctors that the rest of the World comes to, we have equipment we have designed and built that nobody else has. We have free health care for the young, the old and the truly broke, (everyone else can afford insurance but spends their money on other priorities)The US is ranked number 37 by the WHO on healthcare behind countries such as COSTA RICA, CANADA, CHILE, SINGAPORE, and SAUDI ARABIA! well heres a great article for you to read on American doctors and healthcare in general. Medical Errors: 5th Leading Cause of Death in the United States « Jata Health News (https://jatahealth.wordpress.com/2009/03/23/medical-errors-5th-leading-cause-of-death-in-the-united-states/) . , made us one of the most hated countries in the world, Like I give a shit what the French, Iran and etc. say. We were already the most hated country in the World because we do what's best for us first, we don't give other countries respect they don't deserve. The bad guys fear us, the other countries are jealous. Like I give a shit, it's not a popularity contest, and trying to be popular is a complete waste of time and money, that invariably bites you in the ass. Its funny how you say you dont watch mainstream media, but this statement here sounds like bill oreily! Yeah i guess trying to be nice and get along with other countries is a bad idea!!! Ha! made big banks and multinational coorporations massive amounts of money This is something new and different? Explain how signing Democrat written bills that limited regulation of outsourcing Thats not a full sentence and I dont understand what your trying to say here. purposefully screwed over the american people with the TWO Bush bailouts, Brought to you by a Democratic Congress and Senate Thats exactly what IM saying! dem's and repub's are exactly the same! Anyone who thinks they are different and thinks that one cares and the other doesnt is stupid! disrespected the constitution Enemy combatents have zero rights until they are re-classified as POW's. The Constitution has nothing that applies to this situation, Im not just talking about enemy combatants, im talking about the patriot act, illegal wire tapping, secret prisons, going to war without congress approval, torture etc..expanded presidential powers to unheard of amounts Happily supported by Congress and Senate in order to ensure security to a hysterical Nation after 9-11,So what if it was passed by the congress and senate does that now wash bush's hands clean?He lied about the reasons for going to war. I just watched a bunch of his speechs from 2003 and 04 last week. Bush specifically said that if we invade iraq that we will rid our country of terrorists. False. He said they had WMD's. THats false, even though Speak2truth gave me plenty of links that claim there were wmd's but really it was 500 expired mustard gas bombs that pose no threat to anyone. You can make mustard gas anytime you like, all you need is some bleach and amonia to gain street credentials just like saddam hussein. Tell that to ya boyz in da yard G! Shit and you can actually acquire fresh mustard gas that works! Your a step ahead of Hussein! tens of thousands of people, if not more, lost their homes under Bush. People lose homes because they are overextended, which is 100% their fault, not my concerneAs a good economist once said (ron Paul) Its about over regulation that the Bush party enforced, as well as uninformed decisions by people. Not to mention Hurricane Katrina, Katrina, the first time in modern history that New Orleans flooded, the state said: "We have it under control", and then they said: I guess we don't have it under control, can you send help 3 days ago". Please tell me how it should have been handled given the circumstances, if anything, blame the State Government for wasting 3 days, after which we had to mobilize a massive aid effort. The Government brought in buses to take people to safety, and they refused to get on the buses because they wanted to go looting, or simply wanted to stay home (morons)Need I say anything back to this? I guess those morons deserved to sit on their roofs desperatly pleading for food, water, and shelter. Im sure they loved the sewage water, because their minds are so moronic that they didnt realize they were in the midst of a hurricane! You have go tot tell me where you came up with those ideas! I guess thats probably the best example of how much Bush and his fellow repub's care

Dude were not getting anywhere. Your the emotionally caught up person in this discussion and everyone can see that. I find this conversation to be very draining, and I dont dare continue to disprove your distorted point of view any longer. You are a republican. It is plain and simple to see. The defining characteristic of repub's and dem's alike is a lack of real information which keeps them in the loop of there ideaologies. I would suggest getting some of that real info before making a jackass out of yourself in a public forum by accusing others of doing exactly what your doing.

First, maybe you could act like an adult, and stop the personal name calling, it's just a sign of weakness that shows exactly how emotionally attached to you are, and how weak your position is. It's what little kids do to each other when they need to express their emotions, and can't think of anything else to say.

Second, I am not a Republican (Are you a Liberal?), I'm not a Bush fan (Nor Obama, Clinton, HW Bush, Jimmy Carter, Ford Nixon, Johnson, Truman, FDR etc.) I am simply setting the facts out there without a bunch of emotions attached, because neither side seems able to do that. People love to vilify Bush, and instead of saying it's because he's arrogant and rubs them the wrong way, they poke and prod, hoping a stone will pop lose, and when one does, they hold it up to the light as if it's some great truth that will change the World. On the opposite end, the Conservatives blindly support him, believing he is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and they look just as silly as the Liberals that hate on him.

It's really gotten silly, people are upse because life isn't going the way they want it too, and they don't want to take any responsibility for themselves, so they are looking for somebody to blame so they can be a a victim, and not be responsible for their own decisions and actions. If he had really broken the law, the Democratic Congress would have impeached him right quick like. As it were, it never gained traction, because nobody could prove he really hadn't broken any laws. (I'm not saying he didn't, but the stuff they have gone after him for doesn't hold water, look at how easily Clinton was impeached just for a simple perjury) Bush was neither a great President, nor a bad President, he was somewhere in the low side of middle, just like Clinton, and daddy Bush before him, and many other Presidents that were mediocre, but really that's bad enough, because we are America, and we don't have time and energy for anything but great Presidents like JFK, Teddy Roosevelt, Reagan etc.

Get off the blame Bush bandwagon, it's a waste of your time and energy that you could use more productively elsewhere, and start to blame the people that really make, control, and enable the decisions that screw the people, just for personal gain; Our Congress and Senate.

Ron Paul is a great guy, he is also opposed to illegal immigration, so I wonder why a Paul follower would keep reciting La Raza's web site, and take that over people who have been there and seen this stuff first hand. Go to the next Mexican immigration march, and ask some questions, and you will get answers. if you act like you want to help, you will get the full scoop, wherein you will find that la Raza is the parent of all the other pro-Hispanic/anti-white organizations, groups and gangs. La Raza is what ties together all the Hispanics in North America, the umbrella under which everything happens. It used to be the Catholic Church, now it's La Raza

I have gone and done exactly this in LA, (and in SR) and have been told these things by one of the senior members. Just look around, and ask around, and you will notice that the one common thing is they are all members of La Raza.

If you are looking for a piece of paper issued by a senior member of La Raza that plainly says they are linked to the gangs and other extreme groups, I can't help you, because it isn't there. How stupid would they have to be to do something like that, that could be used against them in the media? If you are that legalistic, I can't help you, but if that's your standard by which you judge things, you must live in a pretty small and confusing World.

The simple way to resolve the immigration problem is; Take away the jobs, and the illegals will go home in a mass exodus. instead of wasting time patrolling the borders, is to much more effective to simply use the immigration officers to randomly check all places of employment, and issue mandatory large fines (and mandatory jail time for repeat offenders) to any employer who cannot show true good faith in verifying a person's right to work, by calling a simple 800 number to verify the name and status of any SS card number.

Ron Paul is a great guy, his ideas on domestic issues and for the economy are by far the most logical, fair and Constitutional of anybody out there (Dennis Kuchinich isn't half bad either). Where I break with him a little bit is on foreign policy, because it is based on the presumption that if we leave people alone, they will go away, and that's not realistic. Islam hates us, and have hated us since 1776. Even if we do nothing, they would still try to make our life hell, because their goal is an Islamic World, and we are the biggest impediment to that goal. Even had we had never set foot in the Mid East, we still would have had something like 9-11, because they have guys like Osama and, Ahmadinejad you hate us simply because we exist.

It's analogous to the school bully; Even if you go out of your way to avoid him, he will still come find you. Ignoring Islam is simply giving up the initiative, and agreeing to play by their rules.

If you don't understand or believe what Islam is really about, then you desperately need to get educated on the subject, and the best way to do that is spend a few weeks over there, but a good second choice is Sandra Mackey's books, particularly "Passion and Politics", which lays out how modern Mid Eastern politics came about.

The other place I break with Ron, is tied to the first, and that is Israel, not because of whether I feel it is right or not, but simply because I know it is impossible to untie that connection. They call DC "Tel Aviv East" for good reason, our government is run primarily by Jews, and has been since the 1920's. After WWII, the Jewish State became a reality for one reason: Jews had infiltrated our government to the point where they knew they could count on our support no matter what. The only other country that we are as nearly as tightly connected to is Great Britain. These two countries are the only ones we have ever given nuclear secrets to, and many other things that effect our security. The three of us are tied together like families that have extensively inter-married, and inter-bred, and blood truly is thicker than water.

If you really want to help your country, get on the board with closed borders, dissolving the Federal reserve, strict Constitutionalism, true fiscal responsibility (meaning when somethings dying, let it go ahead and die instead of pumping trillions into it trying to keep it alive) and routing out and prosecuting government corruption.

Most importantly, convince some of your friends to stop voting the straight party ticket, and vote for people like Ron Paul, and Dennis Kuchinich.

toddwquigley

06-25-2009, 02:46 AM

As for "no evidence"... well, aside from the Iraqi operators involved in the first and second WTC attacks (trainees of Salman Pak for the second), Saddam was not shy about taking credit for his great victory over the US.

https://www.silcom.com/%7Evikman/Politics/SaddamMuralWTC.jpg

Folks like to claim Bush was "clueless" - but he certainly outsmarted everyone who needed to be outsmarted. I sometimes wondered if he cultivated that image and was laughing at people who fell for it.

Sure, he was not a slick stage performer like Obama. But clueless? No. He went after and successfully eliminated the targets that needed eliminating. He succeeded after Clinton failed us for 8 years.[/quote]

It's hilarious how people say: "Hussein didn't have anything to do with 9-11, he said he thought Osama was too radical".

What, everything else the man says is a lie, but all of the sudden he told the truth here? Yeah, that's pretty funny... "What'cha smokin"?

Like duh, once he saw how seriously the USA was taking 9-11, he tried to distance himself.

Braggi

06-25-2009, 07:44 AM

... Democrats screamed that Bush was going to pillage Iraq - but you are angry that he actually gave them their money back? Holy smokes. ...

Show me the documents regarding who the money was given to. It was stolen. It "disappeared." No paper trail. You figure it out.

-Jeff

someguy

06-25-2009, 09:09 AM

To: Todd and Speak2

Todd: first of all, the worst name ive called you so far is a republican. DID that really hurt your feelings a lot? Sorry but I wont retract that statement either, because you've taken the hardest job on the face of the earth, to justify the entire Bush presidency. You constantly are just assuming that since a democrat said it, it must be false! That is not logic. A logical person would judge people by their words not some arbitrary group that we've made up to describe them. If thats not a die hard republican thing to do, i just dont know anymore.

You know I may agree with you on some things, and I have lots of problems with Obama followers and democrats in general, but I wouldnt just dismiss someones point of view because they were a dem or repub. A truly mature person can put aside their personal beliefs and take a logical open minded approach to recieving information. You, on the other hadn, dismiss anything a democrat says as liberal nonsense just because their liberal. I guess im too immature to understand why you would do that to yourself.

And about La Raza. You always say these people belong to La Raza, but do you mean that they are hispanic, or that they belong to the NCLR, which is who you claim to be a racist hate group. Yet you and Speak2 can not produce solid evidence that supports that. Im not so naive that I need an official paper from a top NCLR official stating there affiliation. Maybe if one of these haters were just wearing a shirt that supported NCLR! Geez, its not that hard to produce some kind of link. And if it is to hard to find that information and back up your theory, I cant believe you. Sorry. But dont say that I am in denial or being swept by my emotions because I wont blindly accept your theories.

To Speak2: Ok you said a lot in your last post. None of it answered my question. Which was to link these people yelling hate speech to the NCLR. I notice you say La Raza a lot, but that has nothing to do with NCLR. There are many other groups that use the exact same phrase "La Raza". Some may be bad and some good. But you are trying to say specifically that NCLR is the mastermind behind all of this. PROVE IT! I dont want to read another post of yours filled with white noise again. You wont buy time in this, you must make the connection, or risk ignorage.

On a personal note, I find you to be very annoying. You keep sending me links which are always a waste of my time. You have yet to produce any information of substance and its getting on my nerves. If you plan on responding to me, you'd better show some factual information that backs up your seemingly racist views. And I say seemingly racist because your villifying an entire civil rights organization with zero evidence and hate propaganda videos on youtube. I dont want to call you a racist but if you fail to produce the facts, what else is there to conclude? Your walking a balance beam here dude, and IM about ready to push you off.

Braggi

06-25-2009, 09:15 AM

How many times must you see the reports of ACTUAL HARDWARE FOUND before it sinks in?

PLEASE LEARN SOMETHING TONIGHT.

CIA Statement on Recently Acquired Iraqi Centrifuge Equipment
CIA Statement on Recently Acquired Iraqi Centrifuge Equipment (https://www.fas.org/irp/news/2003/06/cia062603.html) ...

So why in the headlines here does it say that the US Govt. declares this is not a smoking gun? Because it's not. Do you not understand that three parts out of a machine comprised of thousands of parts is not a threat? I was a machinist for 15 years. I have a lot of parts laying around I made back in those days. So what? Does that mean I'm building a submarine? No. It doesn't. There is no credibility to your statement.

... Hundreds of WMDs discovered in Iraq
Bombshell report notes 500 chemical weapons including sarin, mustard gas, more to be found
Hundreds of WMDs discovered in Iraq (https://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50746) ...

Do you actually read any of these links you post? " ... "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. ... " The key word here is "degraded." These were old munitions, containing materials sold to Saddam by Bush's Defense Secretary, Rumsfeld, while employed in a different capacity. But you wouldn't know about that because your sources are so limited and that's not what you're looking for.

If you wonder how 500 old artillery shells could have been lost by Saddam's regime, which we practically destroyed in the first "Gulf War," consider this: how did the US military misplace 9,200 vials of "deadly germs and toxins at an Army biodefense lab ..." Does that mean the US was planning a germ warfare attack on ... [insert the country of your choice]? Of course not. Not any more than Saddam was planning a mustard gas attack on the US.

9,200 Uncounted Vials Found at Army Biodefense Lab - ABC News (https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory?id=7863828)

Read up. You might learn something.

Nice chattin' with ya.

-Jeff

someguy

06-25-2009, 09:22 AM

Do you actually read any of these links you post? " ...

I already said all this to Speak2untruth and he just pretends like you never said it. His logic is offensive and a waste of time. And Ill aswer this question for you. No, he didnt read the links he posted. Nobody would sabotage their entire arguement in such a way! And Jeff, I urge you to look at the other video links S2T put up about La Raza. Youll find it to be on par (or worse)with the articles about WMD's and so forth. Id like to get someone elses perspective on those videos.

Speak2Truth

06-25-2009, 10:06 AM

Show me the documents regarding who the money was given to. It was stolen. It "disappeared." No paper trail. You figure it out.

You are making a silly request. Can you show me the documents as to where Syria spends its budget, especially specific portions of income? How about Israel? You and I obviously don't have access to Iraq's internal government expenditures process but we do know they needed their money quickly to pay police, military, reconstruction workers...

Dude - THE MONEY BELONGED TO IRAQ. Your position is that we should have kept for ourselves the assets of Iraq that were frozen including THEIR Oil for Food money and THEIR proceeds from the sale of oil on the open market. YOU embrace stealing from them!

I find that abhorrent.

Speak2Truth

06-25-2009, 10:50 AM

And about La Raza. You always say these people belong to La Raza, but do you mean that they are hispanic, or that they belong to the NCLR, which is who you claim to be a racist hate group. Yet you and Speak2 can not produce solid evidence that supports that.

I am giving you more information than any public disinformation source because I was there, marching with them just like Obama did. You can bet your country's future the mainstream media and Wikipedia are deceiving you.

I did live TV shows airing long segments of their street activities and the callers were infuriated! Their typical response was, "WHY DID CNN LIE TO US by calling it a 'peaceful demonstration'?" I cannot tell you why - I can only show you that they do lie. Not even FOX showed the viciousness of the "Viva La Raza" crowd.

No other link on the web can be trusted more than I can because I WAS THERE.

I don't know how to help you absorb this information.

Sotomayor’s La Raza Uses Taxpayer Money for Radical Agenda (https://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2274432/posts)

Obama laid claim to the Hispanic vote in a 2007 speech before the La Raza Council in which he said, “Find out how many senators appeared before an immigration rally last year. Who was talking the talk, and who walked the walk -- because I walked.” Obama characterized the 2007 Senate debate on immigration as “ugly and racist” and promised to make amnesty a priority of his presidency.

In the 2006 demonstrations Obama marched in, protestors carried signs reading, “Gringo Go Home,” and “This Is Our Land, Not Yours.” American flags were burned and desecrated by Hispanics wearing Che Guevara T-shirts and carrying Mexican flags while waving Communist and anarchist banners. La Raza advised the organizers of the 2007 demonstrations held in 40-plus cities to keep such incendiary symbols to a minimum.

Much has already been said about the Sotomayor’s much-quoted statement about “a wise Latina woman” being better qualified to serve as a judge. President Barak Obama and his staff have downplayed Sotomayor’s statement, its meaning and context, but few have focused on her opening remarks in that same speech in which she said: “I intend tonight to touch upon the themes that this conference will be discussing this weekend and to talk to you about my Latina identity, where it came from, and the influence I perceive it has on my presence on the bench.” ...

Sotomayor has also served on the board of directors of the Latino Justice/Puerto Rican Legal Defense Fund which, like La Raza, also opposes enforcing immigration laws, securing the border and supports amnesty for those already in this country illegally.

None of this is theory. The National Council of La Raza coordinates activities with the other anti-American, pro-Invasion groups and marches with them on the streets. I provided you with first-hand video of the La Raza-orchestrated activities on the street. I showed you the poster (with an assault rifle across it) that they post in Los Angeles.

If you want more video showing how brutal they are, just let me know. I'll post it in a few days.

Ok you said a lot in your last post. None of it answered my question. Which was to link these people yelling hate speech to the NCLR.

Oh, you want shots of the official NCLR logo on their shirts! You won't accept anything but a specific T-shirt as "evidence" of their activities! (Is there such a thing?)

Did Mohammed Atta have to wear an "Al Qaeda" T-shirt for you to be willing to believe? :lol2:

Their "WHITES GET OUT" poster was not enough for you! This is getting comical.

Here's more La Raza imagery...

La raza image by AztlanFrost on Photobucket (https://media.photobucket.com/image/la%20raza/AztlanFrost/lostcause.gif?o=9)

Chicano Park and Reconquista (https://www.embargowellsfargo.com/ChicanoPark.html)

(I think this one is funny - notice the ACORN badge on the guy in the foreground)
https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2285/1663437961_96daa07f3d.jpg?v=0

Braggi

06-25-2009, 10:50 AM

You are making a silly request. Can you show me the documents as to where Syria spends its budget, especially specific portions of income? How about Israel? ... Dude - THE MONEY BELONGED TO IRAQ. ...

Speakin' of silly! I'll type slowly, read along. The money was removed from US Federal Reserve banks. It was taken to Iraq in secret. It was handed out in secret to ... we don't know who! The money was stolen by the Bush misadministration. It was handed out, in cash, to their friends.

If there was any validity to what you're saying, they would have kept the cash in the bank where it belonged, wired the value into Iraqi GOVERNMENT banks, and then Iraq could have handled it. As it was the money was "lost." Iraq didn't get the money. It was stolen by Bush and his cronies.

The US media fell down on the job which, of course, proves how liberal they all are. [right!]

-Jeff

Braggi

06-25-2009, 10:54 AM

... And Jeff, I urge you to look at the other video links S2T put up about La Raza. Youll find it to be on par (or worse)with the articles about WMD's and so forth. Id like to get someone elses perspective on those videos.

I watched one of them. It said nothing of substance, as you're saying. I don't have all day to watch this nonsense. The sum total of speak2's substance in these threads is zero. He has no credibility. One wonders if he's just a troll or if he's truly misguided. He seems sincere so I want to give him some benefit of doubt, but he's pretty much burned that up.

I'm pretty done with it.

-Jeff

Speak2Truth

06-25-2009, 11:00 AM

The money was removed from US Federal Reserve banks. It was taken to Iraq in secret. It was handed out in secret to ... we don't know who! The money was stolen by the Bush misadministration. It was handed out, in cash, to their friends.

I provided a news quote explaining the amount of cash Bush ordered the Federal Reserve to release, the number of tons of cash and the fact it was shipped to the Iraqi government.

It was in the NEWS! Secret? Get real.

How about you post a link showing where you are getting all these contradictory statements?

If there was any validity to what you're saying, they would have kept the cash in the bank where it belonged, wired the value into Iraqi GOVERNMENT banks, and then Iraq could have handled it.

Thank you for getting back to logical discussion on this.

When Saddam's regime fell, Iraq had no valid currency of its own. But, American dollars WERE valid currency for exchange in Iraq, like many other nations. So, they needed printed cash, in small denominations, immediately. Iraq's financial infrastructure did not include a credit card in every pocket to pay people electronically. It HAD to be cash, it HAD to be Iraq's money and it HAD to be immediate so their government could actually hire and pay people.

It took time to redesign and print the new Iraqi Dinar. Then, to put them into circulation. So, American dollars were the best solution to the immediate need to employ Iraqis.

As it was the money was "lost." Iraq didn't get the money. It was stolen by Bush and his cronies.

I don't know why you keep saying this. Please provide hard links to information on it. Meanwhile...

US to pay Iraqi workers in dollars
US to pay Iraqi workers in dollars, by Tim Reid, 4/17/03 (https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/linkscopy/USpayIWinUSD.html)The US is airlifting millions of dollars from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York into Baghdad to pay Iraqi workers with American currency until a replacement for the discredited Iraqi currency is found.
...
At first, Iraqi workers will be given $20 each, in $1 and $5 bills. That is a large sum in Iraq. In central and southern Iraq, a mid-level oil professional with a university degree would make the equivalent of $50 a month.

I hope these facts help.

Speak2Truth

06-25-2009, 11:07 AM

I watched one of them. It said nothing of substance, as you're saying. I don't have all day to watch this nonsense. The sum total of speak2's substance in these threads is zero.

From my position, having been there and seen it all first-hand, you are putting your hands over your ears and screaming "la la la la la" to avoid hearing the facts. Oh, well.

I can only lead you to the truth. The rest is up to you.

Speak2Truth

06-25-2009, 11:31 AM

So why in the headlines here does it say that the US Govt. declares this is not a smoking gun?

Because news people wrote those headlines.

It is a FACT that those were the munitions the UN inspectors sought.

It is a FACT that Saddam repeatedly denied having prohibited weapons as well as production capability - and was repeatedly caught lying (especially about his crash nuclear-weapons program)

It is a FACT that efforts to conceal the easily-refilled artillery shells, plus the Centrifuge, plus the bio-weapons master samples, plus to obtain uranium from Niger, plus efforts to obtain nuclear bomb triggers from Siemens... well, any ONE of those activities violated the terms of the cease-fire.

So, Bill Clinton called off the cease-fire and, under existing authority from UN Resolution 688 (if I recall correctly) unilaterally resumed full hostilities against Iraq.

And Bush finished the job.

Because it's not. Do you not understand that three parts out of a machine comprised of thousands of parts is not a threat?

Actually, those uranium refinement centrifuge cylinders are extremely high tech. If you were really a machinist (and I programmed CNC mills and did Aerospace work myself) you would know how extremely difficult they are to get right. Even bacteria from the touch of a hand can imbalance them and create a catastrophic destructive event.

There is no other purpose to that specific centrifuge master copy, received as part of a nuclear weapons kick-start program from a Pakistani named Khan, than to refine uranium. Prohibited.

Saddam is GUILTY AS CHARGED.

Do you actually read any of these links you post? " ... "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. ... " The key word here is "degraded."

You are incapable of absorbing information, a standard Leftist mindset.

EASILY REFILLED munitions. Let that soak in. That is ostensibly why 55 gallon drums of deadly nerve agent (a common pesticide) were stored at ammunition loading sites. Great efforts have been made to dismiss this - but the artillery loading sites were all set to refill the specialized chemical weapon rounds.

American Thinker: Pesticides, Precursors, and Petulance (https://www.americanthinker.com/2004/04/pesticides_precursors_and_petu_1.html)

Left unexplained is the small matter of the obvious pains taken to disguise the cache of ostensibly legitimate pesticides. One wonders about the advantage an agricultural commodities business gains by securing drums of pesticide in camouflaged bunkers (https://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/31/1080544556813.html?from=storyrhs)six feet underground. The 'agricultural site' was also co—located with a military ammunition dump, evidently nothing more than a coincidence in the eyes of the ISG.

It is a FACT that Saddam was required to hand them all over.

It is a FACT that he deliberately concealed them - as well as his other prohibited activities.

It is a FACT that is why UN Resolution 1441 gave Saddam once last chance to stop screwing around because he was in material breach of the ceasefire terms of Resolution 687. Even the UN condemned Saddam.

I can only lead you to the Truth.

https://daccess-ods.un.org/TMP/9562014.html

"Recognizing the threat Iraq’s non-compliance with Council resolutions and
proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,"

someguy

06-25-2009, 11:42 AM

I am giving you more information than any public disinformation source because I was there, marching with them just like Obama did. You can bet your country's future the mainstream media and Wikipedia are deceiving you.

I did live TV shows airing long segments of their street activities and the callers were infuriated! Their typical response was, "WHY DID CNN LIE TO US by calling it a 'peaceful demonstration'?" I cannot tell you why - I can only show you that they do lie. Not even FOX showed the viciousness of the "Viva La Raza" crowd.

No other link on the web can be trusted more than I can because I WAS THERE.

I don't know how to help you absorb this information.

Sotomayor’s La Raza Uses Taxpayer Money for Radical Agenda (https://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2274432/posts)

Obama laid claim to the Hispanic vote in a 2007 speech before the La Raza Council in which he said, “Find out how many senators appeared before an immigration rally last year. Who was talking the talk, and who walked the walk -- because I walked.” Obama characterized the 2007 Senate debate on immigration as “ugly and racist” and promised to make amnesty a priority of his presidency.

In the 2006 demonstrations Obama marched in, protestors carried signs reading, “Gringo Go Home,” and “This Is Our Land, Not Yours.” American flags were burned and desecrated by Hispanics wearing Che Guevara T-shirts and carrying Mexican flags while waving Communist and anarchist banners. La Raza advised the organizers of the 2007 demonstrations held in 40-plus cities to keep such incendiary symbols to a minimum.

Much has already been said about the Sotomayor’s much-quoted statement about “a wise Latina woman” being better qualified to serve as a judge. President Barak Obama and his staff have downplayed Sotomayor’s statement, its meaning and context, but few have focused on her opening remarks in that same speech in which she said: “I intend tonight to touch upon the themes that this conference will be discussing this weekend and to talk to you about my Latina identity, where it came from, and the influence I perceive it has on my presence on the bench.” ...

Sotomayor has also served on the board of directors of the Latino Justice/Puerto Rican Legal Defense Fund which, like La Raza, also opposes enforcing immigration laws, securing the border and supports amnesty for those already in this country illegally.

None of this is theory. The National Council of La Raza coordinates activities with the other anti-American, pro-Invasion groups and marches with them on the streets. I provided you with first-hand video of the La Raza-orchestrated activities on the street. I showed you the poster (with an assault rifle across it) that they post in Los Angeles.

If you want more video showing how brutal they are, just let me know. I'll post it in a few days.

Oh, you want shots of the official NCLR logo on their shirts! You won't accept anything but a specific T-shirt as "evidence" of their activities! (Is there such a thing?)

Did Mohammed Atta have to wear an "Al Qaeda" T-shirt for you to be willing to believe? :lol2:

Their "WHITES GET OUT" poster was not enough for you! This is getting comical.

Here's more La Raza imagery...

La raza image by AztlanFrost on Photobucket (https://media.photobucket.com/image/la%20raza/AztlanFrost/lostcause.gif?o=9)

Chicano Park and Reconquista (https://www.embargowellsfargo.com/ChicanoPark.html)

(I think this one is funny - notice the ACORN badge on the guy in the foreground)
https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2285/1663437961_96daa07f3d.jpg?v=0

Ok first of all, I didnt say they have to have t-shirts with the NCLR logo on it. I said you need to make some connection to the NCLR. Otherwise your just wanting me to take your word for it, because you were there. Sorry I wont do that. I dont know who you are, and I have little to zero respect for you. So obviously I wont do that.

You could paint any picture you wanted with any video of a mexican doing something bad and say that they are connected to the NCLR. I could connect you to the NCLR by your logic. For christ sake you were at their rallies video taping them! I could have been at that same rally video taping you, video taping them and claim you to be a supporter! You were there video tapping werent you? So I guess you are part of the NCLR's master race plan! Your a schill arent you?

Now onto your sotomeyer article. Can I believe whats being said on a crazy right wing news website? Especially when they are saying things like:

"Free Republic has been rallying in support of our President and the war effort (https://www.freerepublic.com/tag/opinfinitefreep/index?tab=articles) since shortly after the terrorist attack on America on September 11, 2001. Later, as the inevitable war against Iraq drew closer, more and more of the "useful idiots" of the left began crawling out of the woodwork organizing so-called "anti-war" protests. FReepers are working to ensure that these communist organized (See: INTERNATIONAL A.N.S.W.E.R. (https://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/862716/posts)) demonstrations do not go unanswered. "

Okay so there are several things I put in bold and underlined in the above quote from the Free Republic Home Page. I bolded and underlined them because they are perfect examples of biased news.

Inevitable war: So I guess we never had any other options but to go to war with Iraq. That is simply the most untrue statement ever! Simply opinion based journalism.

Useful idiots: A coined phrase this website has made up for liberals. But arent republicans just as idiotic and/or just as useful?

So called anti war protests: Well they were anti war protests. They werent so called. But what the website is implying is that these protesters really had an alternative motive. What could it be? Communist takeover???

Communist organized: Im sure that not all these protests were communists organized. Believe it or not, some people are opposed to war and that belief has nothing to do with communism.

Look, I know that the mainstream media is not the greatest source of information in the world. And we should all strive for honest, thoughtful news. Unfortunatly this is not the type of news you are presenting, and Im sorry but I can not take you seriously sir. You have not made a good valid case connecting hate groups to the NCLR. You claim to have lots of video proving it, but you wont show it to me, rather you just want me to believe you. Sorry bro, I have no idea who you are, but I do have some insight as to how you think. And you base your opinions on prejudice.

And on the logos you posted. Ive been to many of these hispanic websites since we started discussing this, and I have yet to find any of the symbols on any of them. So far you seem to be the only one who is posting these symbols. Am I then supposed to think that you are the hispanic racist?

Look, you may be right that the NCLR is a racist terrorist cell waiting to over populate your race and dominate them, but I dont know that for a fact because you wont show me the facts! I cant find them independantly. I swear to you that I have searched and am still searching. And I have found articles and websites that support your allegations, but they are not credible in any sense of the word. They are websites just like Free Republic, with a stick up their ass called BIAS. It is extremely obvious too.

You know the other day I mentioned our discussion to my dad (a hardcore neo con, two times Bush supporter, and reagan butt licker) and even he thinks you are way outta touch with reality when you say Bush was justified in the Iraq war. He still thinks its great that Saddam is out of power and that ultimatly we did the right thing, but at least hes willing to admit that Iraq posed no serious threat to our country, and Bush F'ed it all up. Now this is from the mouth of a racist, Rush Limbaugh fanatic! Now what words do you think I should use to describe you? Being that you are the person who defends Bush's policies through and through, insist that we did find WMD's that posed a serious threat to us, and that those WMD's 'validated' an massive bombing campaign and occupation of another country!

Braggi

06-25-2009, 12:22 PM

... I don't know why you keep saying this. Please provide hard links to information on it. Meanwhile...
...The US is airlifting millions of dollars from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York into Baghdad to pay Iraqi workers with American currency until a replacement for the discredited Iraqi currency is found.
...
At first, Iraqi workers will be given $20 each, in $1 and $5 bills. That is a large sum in Iraq. In central and southern Iraq, a mid-level oil professional with a university degree would make the equivalent of $50 a month. [/I]

I hope these facts help.

No, no credibility here either. Do your own search. The web still has a lot of articles up. I found them last time I looked.

The banks in Iraq were never shut down for more than a few days at a time. Visa and Mastercard never stopped working. US backed credit cards worked fine. I had a friend living in Baghdad the whole time including while the bombs were falling. He got by without a truck load of cash. He used his credit cards just like everybody else. Iraq was a first world country before we invaded.

Gotta get back to real life. Do your own research. The information is out there and from other than right wing websites. Broaden your horizons.

-Jeff

Speak2Truth

06-25-2009, 12:36 PM

Ok first of all, I didnt say they have to have t-shirts with the NCLR logo on it.

Yes, you did. Here's the quote: "Maybe if one of these haters were just wearing a shirt that supported NCLR! Geez, its not that hard to produce some kind of link."

I said you need to make some connection to the NCLR.

So, I provide a variety of quotes from other sources explaining NCLR's collaboration with the other groups, like MECHA, on the same agenda. Open borders, giving the illegal invaders the legal legitimacy to outvote Americans, etc. The Sotomayor text got specific about that.

That is their agenda. It is hostile to America. It is enemy to our Constitution. I stand with America. How about you?

I could connect you to the NCLR by your logic. For christ sake you were at their rallies video taping them!

As a journalist. Notice, I was not brushing shoulders with them screaming "WHITES GET OUT!!" "FUERA!!" "VIVA MEXICO" and all the other fun chants they come up with.

Yes, Free Republic is definitely biased. So am I. I am biased in favor of America and defense of our Constitution and the Truth. Therefore, I will show you facts, I will travel to far away cities to gather information, to help reveal what folks biased in the other direction will publicly deny. My bias makes me willing to provide information that their bias wishes to conceal - and clearly DOES conceal in the mainstream media.

I have fun video of Cindy Sheehan at a Communist gathering insisting Hugo Chavez should be our next President. My bias makes me willing to show you this truth. Their bias has concealed it from you.

I will never knowingly mislead you. They are.

Inevitable war: So I guess we never had any other options but to go to war with Iraq. That is simply the most untrue statement ever!

Obviously, there are other options. But for a reasonable President who must do his clearly defined Duty... maybe not.

When a criminal attacks you with a weapon, you have many options. For me, it is inevitable that if I don't think I can outrun him I will do him serious harm to stop the attack. It is "inevitable" that I will wage violence against him.

Saddam set a course, when he started the war, that he was not willing to change. So, Clinton called off the cease-fire, the UN condemned him with Resolution 1441, Bush gave him one last chance to come clean, he did not... Saddam made the logical response inevitable. Unless we had a French President, that is. ;-)

Useful idiots: A coined phrase this website has made up for liberals.

No. It is the term Lenin coined for them, based on certain personality characteristics.

So called anti war protests: Well they were anti war protests. They werent so called. But what the website is implying is that these protesters really had an alternative motive. What could it be? Communist takeover???

Well, they WERE orchestrated by Communists. I never failed to spot the Communist organizers running them. We know Cuba orchestrated them as far back as the Vietnam conflict (and I saw a fun documentary from Cuba on that) and we know Communists orchestrate them today. Hm...

Communist organized: Im sure that not all these protests were communists organized. Believe it or not, some people are opposed to war and that belief has nothing to do with communism.

I absolutely agree with you. That's why Lenin called them "useful idiots". Communists are masters at playing upon (and generating) common sympathies to get mass support for their underlying, disguised agendas. So-called Americans will march behind Communist banners just because they don't like the war - but they are "useful idiots" for joining in and serving the purposes of America's ENEMY.

You claim to have lots of video proving it, but you wont show it to me, rather you just want me to believe you.

Oh, you WANT to see it? First time you are mentioning it.

This is all on tapes. It will take time to search and encode the more interesting stuff and perhaps it is time I do so. However, given your propensity for creating narrowly defined rules for what you will accept is NCLR's collaboration in these efforts, what is the narrow bit of detail in the footage that will convince you?

If not the fact that NCLR works for "open borders" and legalization of the criminal invaders so they can outvote Americans?

You must be able to apply logic to these basic facts to understand the end result for which NCLR, MECHA and the others are working. This is important.

You know the other day I mentioned our discussion to my dad (a hardcore neo con, two times Bush supporter, and reagan butt licker) and even he thinks you are way outta touch with reality when you say Bush was justified in the Iraq war.

Obviously, you are the qualified translator. Not.

I bet I could convince him I am correct, if he is rationally willing to look at evidence and piece it together into a logical conclusion.

Get him on Waccobb. And, please, don't create yourself another account and pretend. Let's keep this honest at both ends.

He still thinks its great that Saddam is out of power and that ultimatly we did the right thing, but at least hes willing to admit that Iraq posed no serious threat to our country

Show him this, explaining how thousands of Americans were killed by Iraq's trained operatives in our country. Saddam warned US Ambassador April Glaspie he would do it and Saddam followed through. That's why the attacks began immediately after the Gulf War - then ended when Saddam's regime was destroyed:

Speak2Truth Blog: Iraq's War Against the US - The Hidden Details
Speak2Truth's Blog on Yahoo! (https://profiles.yahoo.com/blog/FF5PDJLI6BBYLYMZECK6ZTIVIY?eid=r6EWHZ41yywYxyTDVm1uS37sukhdD4eUiPrS86sE4ii91XNAyw)

Speak2Truth

06-25-2009, 12:45 PM

Someguy, check this out. I see that NCLR does NOT distinguish between illegal invaders and legitimate immigrants. That's a strike against them right away:

National Council of La Raza: Topics (https://www.nclr.org/content/topics/detail/500/)

They work to get driver's licenses and other benefits for illegal invaders - so they are working against America and our Constitution.

Despite their claims to support US law, they take positions that make them enemies of US law.

https://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=153

NCLR's major policy positions also include the following:
It supports access to driver's licenses for illegal immigrants (https://www.nclr.org/content/policy/detail/1060/).
It opposes the REAL ID Act, (https://www.nclr.org/content/policy/detail/29762/) which requires that all driver's license and photo ID applicants be able to verify they are legal residents of the United States, and that the documents they present to prove their identity are genuine. According to La Raza, this law "opens the door to widespread discrimination and civil rights violations."
It opposes the Clear Law Enforcement for Criminal Alien Removal Act (CLEAR), which would empower state and local law-enforcement authorities to enforce federal immigration laws. La Raza argues this would "result in higher levels of racial profiling, police misconduct, and other civil rights violations."
It lobbies for racial and ethnic preferences (affirmative action) and set-asides in hiring, promotions, and college admissions.
It supports bilingual education and bilingual ballots.
It supports voting rights for illegal aliens.
It supports stricter hate-crime laws.
It opposes (https://209.85.165.104/custom?q=cache:eBbudpPuR3EJ:www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp%3FID%3D11862+%22national+council+of+la+raza%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=17) the Aviation Transportation and Security Act requiring that all airport baggage screeners be U.S. citizens.
It opposed (https://capwiz.com/nclr/issues/alert/?alertid=9075406) President Bush's signing of the "Secure Fence Act of 2006" which authorized 700 miles of new border fencing along the U.S.-Mexico border.

someguy

06-25-2009, 01:39 PM

Ok first of all, I didnt say they have to have t-shirts with the NCLR logo on it.

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>someguy wrote: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/orangebuttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccoreader/46088-free-market-capitalism-replaced-post92408.html#post92408)
Ok first of all, I didnt say they have to have t-shirts with the NCLR logo on it.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Yes, you did. Here's the quote: "Maybe if one of these haters were just wearing a shirt that supported NCLR! Geez, its not that hard to produce some kind of link."

OK so Im gonna break down these to you. What I was saying was you need to link NCLR with the protestors. It could be anything, a shirt, a sign, a banner, an official paper.

I never did say that they were OBLIGATED to wear shirts for me to believe you. You should know that!

You remind me of a day when there was a mysterious presence on this message board. There was always this one mystery that kept slamming their hatred and BS into the discussion just to frustrate and annoy waccobb. This mysterious person would also say really retarded things, just like your assertion that I insist on those hate protestors wearing the NCLR t-shirts, and no that other evidence will do. Of course other evidence will convince me, but what I was attempting to do was give you an example of a way of conneting these people to the organization for credibilty sake. Its obvious that there is still a mystery out there to be solved.

As for you S2T, I am going to find something better to do. I think Ive made my point very clearly. Bye.

toddwquigley

06-25-2009, 03:06 PM

Someguy, check this out. I see that NCLR does NOT distinguish between illegal invaders and legitimate immigrants. That's a strike against them right away:

National Council of La Raza: Topics (https://www.nclr.org/content/topics/detail/500/)

They work to get driver's licenses and other benefits for illegal invaders - so they are working against America and our Constitution.

Despite their claims to support US law, they take positions that make them enemies of US law.

https://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=153

NCLR's major policy positions also include the following:
<LI class=list_spacer><LI class=list_spacer>It supports access to driver's licenses for illegal immigrants (https://www.nclr.org/content/policy/detail/1060/).<LI class=list_spacer>It opposes the REAL ID Act, (https://www.nclr.org/content/policy/detail/29762/) which requires that all driver's license and photo ID applicants be able to verify they are legal residents of the United States, and that the documents they present to prove their identity are genuine. According to La Raza, this law "opens the door to widespread discrimination and civil rights violations."<LI class=list_spacer>It opposes the Clear Law Enforcement for Criminal Alien Removal Act (CLEAR), which would empower state and local law-enforcement authorities to enforce federal immigration laws. La Raza argues this would "result in higher levels of racial profiling, police misconduct, and other civil rights violations."<LI class=list_spacer>It lobbies for racial and ethnic preferences (affirmative action) and set-asides in hiring, promotions, and college admissions.<LI class=list_spacer>It supports bilingual education and bilingual ballots.<LI class=list_spacer>It supports voting rights for illegal aliens.<LI class=list_spacer>It supports stricter hate-crime laws.<LI class=list_spacer>It opposes (https://209.85.165.104/custom?q=cache:eBbudpPuR3EJ:www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp%3FID%3D11862+%22national+council+of+la+raza%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=17) the Aviation Transportation and Security Act requiring that all airport baggage screeners be U.S. citizens.
It opposed (https://capwiz.com/nclr/issues/alert/?alertid=9075406) President Bush's signing of the "Secure Fence Act of 2006" which authorized 700 miles of new border fencing along the U.S.-Mexico border.

Hey S2T,

You are wasting your time and effort with this guy, he made up his mind a while ago, and is no longer seeking answers, you are just being baited as entertainment. If you brought a senior la Raza member to his door to explain all this, he would just say: "How do I know you are really a member of La Raza"...

He is a close minded leftist extremist; The kind of people that the socialists love, because they can incite them by playing on their emotions. These type of people don't look for answers, they look for things that prove their pre-established views.

The far right has people like this also; Too emotionally involved to have an open mind.

Heck, he may very well be a la Raza member, lots of whites are because they are fooled by their need to believe, which is usually based on "white guilt" (It helped get Obama elected). these people are the true believers, and they call you a racist if you in any way question their opinion (which he has done to you a few times already).

Hey, he called me a "jackass" for not agreeing with his opinion, which is: "everybody knows Bush is evil". Truly brilliant that... Then he projected his emotionalism onto me, and by taking la Raza's web site over my description of what I have actually seen, basically implied I am a liar. (Like I would lie over something that anyone can verify at any Mexican event, go figure...).

However, what really cracks me up, is he claims to be a Ron Paul supporter, and yet RP is a strong closed borders advocate. RP has called out, and spoken out, about la Raza on many ocassions, here's just one that came up when I Googled, "Ron Paul la Raza": (LA RAZA: Instructs Illegals how to break law | Ron Paul Wins! | Campaign for Liberty at the Daily Paul (https://www.dailypaul.com/node/15564)).

Don't even bother trying to post anything about Bush that doesn't demonize him, if it isn't in Mother Jones or another approved liberal site, they don't believe it. Bush is the whipping post for the lazy and selfish who are frustrated that reality is not as they believe it should be (IE: Liberals). The last thing people want to hear is that they are part of the problem, which is exactly what the lefties are, while the far right says: "Who cares, I got mine".

On the opposite spectrum are the hard core righties who believe bush was the best thing since Goldwater and Nixon, and whom will defend his every action including his arrogance and condescending attitude (The primary thing people hate him for).

My personal opinion is that although I don't like Bush, many of the things he has been accused of have been proven to be untrue, and many of the things he did that people say are illegal, technically are not, and while he wasn't really a horrible President, he wasn't a very good one either. The same of which can be said of the majority of our Presidents.

If you drive a car, or use anything connected to oil (which is everything, and therefore everybody) well hey, plain and simple, Iraq is the cost. There's a limited amount of oil, so it only makes sense to take action to ensure you will have access to it in the future. Iraq and Iran have half of the oil in the Mid-East, and unlike the Arabian countries, the boys in Mesopotamia will work with us, so very simply: They got's ta go, before they develop serious weaponry and it costs more to remove them.

It's funny, because I was a product of an extremely liberal 1970's education, and into my 30's, I was a full blown Liberal. That started to change when I became a business owner, and suddenly political decisions effected me first hand instead of being some abstract concept. I started to look at things from as neutral and objective standpoint as I could, always thinking: "If I knew nothing of politics, and had nothing to gain or lose, what would the truth be"?

That was the end of my liberal thinking, because all the things I had held as dear and unimpeachable truths, began to be shown for what they really are, which is the play on emotions perpetrated by the big money, big busines, big government people. I realized they had taken advantage of my good nature to want a better World, and played on those emotions until I delibertly and knowingly fooled myself because it gave me an answer where I didn't feel guilty about my part in all the problems, I felt like I was doing something to help, and that made me feel good about myself.

However, the far right wasn't something I could be part of either, because the far right is just as racist, just as hateful and just as deluded and used because of their emotions as the far left is. Like liberalism, it requires a blind 100% committment, and the only thing I am willing to blindly commit to 100% is God.

That left me in the middle, where I have been ever since. I live in the reality of truth, knowing there is rarely a perfect answer to anything, and everything is a bit of compromise. It is the difference between seeing black and white sillouettes and seeing a "black and white" photograph. All the sudden I started to see the big picture, instead of just what I had wanted to see. It was like being blind and then suddenly being able to see.

Seeing everything isn't always pleasant, because there's a lot of things that I don't like about the World, and in a small way I am also responsible for them. This is why many of the people that have undergone sight restoration operations, have wished that they hadn't. The World was often an unpretty place, and I was partially responsible for that. The payoff however, is that I don't get those big emotional swings anymore, I look at things and see the good and the bad. All the grey I avoided is there in all it's fascinating and sometimes abhorent detail, but it also shows things of beauty that I had been equally missing.

After living in the polytone reality of grey for a while, I could never consider going back to the monotomy of black and white. Now, when I add 2 and 2 together, I get 4, instead of 5, and gosh and by golly, that's the same number I counted.

I pity the far left and right, because they live in a small, confusing World, ruled by emotional extremism, where nothing seems to add up the way they think it should. However, you can't force them into a moment of clarity, that has to come from within, and the more you push, the more they in fear, cling to their unreality.

It's a big wide World out there, with lots of things we don't understand, and the first reaction to not understanding something is fear. If you are not strong enough to put that fear aside, it will consume you, and soon it will morph into hate.

If you look at the far left and right, you see the manifestation of all that fear and hate in a closed mind ruled by emotions, where reality is whatever they say it is, and they live in a state of confusion because their reality doesn't match up what is really going on. You will often hear people say: "How can that be so", "how can you believe that", "that's not right", "it shouldn't be like that", etc. All these statements of not understanding why things are the way they are, because their reality is not reality, because they are confused, but can't let go.

Anyway, good luck with "Someguy" and "Braggi", all the truth in the World isn't going to change their minds until they are ready for it, if they ever will be...

If you have the patience though, keep it up, because there are some here that appear to be fence sitters, as "Phoomph" seems to be". Besides, it's good to see another realist on Wacco, somebody needs to help shoot holes in all the fantasy, you never know, someone might just have a moment of clarity.

Regards, Todd

Regards, Todd

someguy

06-25-2009, 04:51 PM

Hey S2T,

He is a close minded leftist extremist; The kind of people that the socialists love, because they can incite them by playing on their emotions. These type of people don't look for answers, they look for things that prove their pre-established views.

Heck, he may very well be a la Raza member, lots of whites are because they are fooled by their need to believe, which is usually based on "white guilt" (It helped get Obama elected).

Hey, he called me a "jackass" for not agreeing with his opinion, which is: "everybody knows Bush is evil".

Regards, Todd

Dude, in regards to your twisting around my words. You said I called you "a jackass for not agreeing with me." And now for the TRUE version of what I said: "I would suggest getting some of that real info before making a jackass out of yourself in a public forum by accusing others of doing exactly what your doing."

Got that? I called you a jackass for being a HYPOCRITE! It wasn't because we cant agree. Now sir, you are a liar, and a jackass for spouting all your hateful slander against me.

P.S. You wrote the funniest sentence Ive ever read: "Like liberalism, it requires a blind 100% committment, and the only thing I am willing to blindly commit to 100% is God."
-Todd Q.

Need I ever say anymore to you?

toddwquigley

06-25-2009, 06:57 PM

Dude, in regards to your twisting around my words. You said I called you "a jackass for not agreeing with me." And now for the TRUE version of what I said: "I would suggest getting some of that real info before making a jackass out of yourself in a public forum by accusing others of doing exactly what your doing."

Got that? I called you a jackass for being a HYPOCRITE! It wasn't because we cant agree. Now sir, you are a liar, and a jackass for spouting all your hateful slander against me.

P.S. You wrote the funniest sentence Ive ever read: "Like liberalism, it requires a blind 100% committment, and the only thing I am willing to blindly commit to 100% is God."
-Todd Q.

Need I ever say anymore to you?

You're bloody hysterical, did you finish high school, you know, basic language skills? Look at what you said, and how you said it.

You don't agree with what I have said, that makes it neither right nor wrong, that is an OPINION, and I don't agree with your opinion. What, is something so, just because you say it is?

Please explain: by accusing others of doing exactly what your doing.", Exactly what is it that you think I am doing and accusing others of???

It is your opinion that I have not given you "real info", yet it is my opinion that I have. I have talked to these people, I have no reason to lie about it. I have ethics and morals, and they don't allow me to lie on a BB just to make a point.

It's ridiculous really, you don't believe I am telling the truth, I'm not giving you "real info" and therefore I am a hypocrit. Again, all opinions that I don't agree with. So are you calling me a liar? Let me answer that, by saying that I haven't given given you any "real info", you are saying just that, ie: I don't believe what you are saying, so it doesn't count. That is once again,,, ta da!, an OPINION.

We are all gentlemen here, so when adressing another member that you don't agree with, no bandying about and playing games of implication, if you think I'm lying to you, just come out and say so, and our conversation is over.

Your emotions are getting the best of you, so you try to project that onto me. Pathetic...

Then you say:

You wrote the funniest sentence Ive ever read: "Like liberalism, it requires a blind 100% committment, and the only thing I am willing to blindly commit to 100% is God."

I'm sorry I cease to see the humor in that. If you don't believe in God that's fine, but have enough class not to insult those who do.

You're just being rude and offensive at this point, according to you: I am a liar, I'm acting like a Jackass, I am am a Jackass, I'm slandering you, and my spiritual beliefs are a source of derision and amusement.

You're guilty as charged, and now you've made a fool of yourself, spewing hate and bile, making allegations of lying and slander and calling people names. You don't have to agree with me, but you do have to be civil about it. Name calling just shows how desperate to be right you are, and how emotionally attached you are.I'm just asking you to show common courtesy and be civil.

Just grow up, and open your closed little mind, the World is the way it is, and it's not going to change to meet the way you think it should just by pretending it does.

Speak2Truth

06-27-2009, 12:46 PM

So, let's sum up a couple of issues here with solid, indisputable facts so that we cannot be led astray, ever again:

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF LA RAZA

1) National Council of La Raza works against our Constitution, which requires all illegal invaders be removed (forcibly if necessary) from our soil.

2) National Council of La Raza works to unlawfully secure the presence of invaders in our country.

3) National Council of La Raza is therefore an enemy of the United States, serving a foreign interest and operating under a racist slogan reminiscent of Adolf Hitler's and serving an agenda similar to Hitler's - the promotion of the dominance of one race over others. All public servants who swear an oath to uphold and defend our nation must consider NCLR an enemy and work to defeat it.

IRAQ WMD

1) For nearly a decade, UN inspectors attempted to fulfill the disarmament mandates, a condition of the temporary cease-fire in Iraq.

2) Saddam was prohibited from having any chemical artillery shells (in any condition), any uranium enrichment centrifuge equipment, any effort to obtain uranium, any effort to obtain nuclear weapon componets such as high-speed triggers from Siemens.

3) UN Resolution 1441, issued shortly before GW Bush finished the decade-long Iraq War, condemned Iraq stating that Saddam was in material breach of the disarmament mandates. Therefore, anyone insisting he was not is a willful liar.

4) After our forces eliminated Saddam's regime, they discovered items that were absolutely prohibited per (2) above, items that the UN inspectors searched Iraq for, that Saddam willfully concealed from them, that constitute absolute proof that he was in material breach of the disarmament mandates.

5) Saddam was guilty as charged.

6) Saddam started the war by invading two neighboring countries, Saddam prolonged the war by refusing to abide by the terms of the temporary cease-fire, Bill Clinton ended the cease-fire and committed our nation to absolute destruction of Saddam's regime and installation of a new government, GW Bush finished the job - and proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Clinton was correct. SADDAM WAS GUILTY.

Speak2Truth

06-27-2009, 01:07 PM

So, how about we get back to our main topic? Yesterday, the United States saw Progressive Communism sink its teeth even deeper into our economy with the Carbon Cap and Trade scheme.

Several decades ago, my Father, a legal immigrant to the United States, commented on a news story we were listening to. He said, "Son, communists will tax anything they can to take what you earn. They want your money. They would tax the air you breathe if they could." We both laughed. I'm not laughing any more. What was absolutely ridiculous back then has become reality.

This scheme was cooked up by radical Communists such as Michael Gorbachev, who created Green Cross International to work with governments around the world to create a centralized control of global economy. Al Gore and other leftists have worked to cement Gorbachev's influence in the United States using a variety of propaganda campaigns to prey on the "useful idiots" who make up about 60% of the population.

One need only use the phrase "save the planet" and watch them all flock together like obedient sheep. Science and Truth be damned. This does not bode well for the US.

For the past decade or so, we have listened to the Left crying that America is too prosperous. We use more resources than other countries so we must be punished, we must be taken down so that other countries can have a larger piece of the pie. Instead of other countries following our lead by instituting basic human rights, including the right to prosper by one's own efforts, the Left insists we must instead follow the model of other countries in which one can prosper only if Government Masters allow it. One's private entrepreneurship must be tightly regulated and limited, one's gains seized to enrich the ruling class, to attain some perverted vision of "justice" in the eyes of the rest of the world.

This is pure Fascism.

It is also pure greed. The only real agenda here is to follow the Communist ideal - "I TAKE YOUR STUFF!"

America was created as a land of freedom. We fought a bloody war to end slavery. Now, the Democrat party reinstates Slavery. You now work for them. You only get to keep what they allow you to. The product of your labor is theirs and they will live in abundance at your expense. Say "no" and they will harm you - or kill you.

What has our free, capitalist nation been replaced by? The very things from which our nation's Founders fought to free us.

You are no longer Americans except in name. You have lost the Free Republic they gave you. Now, you are no better than a slave in the eyes of the Leftist ruling class.

And, if they get a radical activist like Sotomayor into the Supreme Court, Leftists will control all branches of the Federal Government. Checks and Balances will be eliminated. Your liberty will be lost, perhaps forever.

Speak2Truth

06-28-2009, 11:27 AM

Folks, I am writing to bid you all farewell.

The forum moderator, Barry, has instructed me to no longer post on political subjects. I shall abide by this. It is his forum.

I shall go elsewhere to find a Free Speech zone to discuss these important topics.

In parting, I want to leave you with a final thought.

As a Liberal who got tired of being lied to, I did some digging to learn who was really deceiving me. I refuse to be a "useful idiot" any longer. I learned all kinds of interesting facts that opened my eyes - we really have been herded like cattle. Lenin was correct about us.

But, like the liberated escapee from Plato's Cave (something y'all should read), I have seen first-hand the people putting on the puppet show for us. I have learned the nature of the game they play and their true objective - to cause us to willingly enslave ourselves and our assets to their control. Lenin would be proud to see how well it has worked.

I hope that, by showing you some of the truths to expose the lies we were told, I have shown you how easily we have been deceived and by what methods.

Those of you interested in true Liberalism, that is liberty from deception and slavery, coupled with Free Speech, please join me at AMERICA SPEAK OUT (https://www.americaspeakout.com) where forums shall be active in about a week. Accounts can be created now.

Barry, thank you for tolerating my presence here as long as you did.

Goodbye, and good luck!

toddwquigley

06-29-2009, 12:17 AM

Those of you interested in true Liberalism, that is liberty from deception and slavery, coupled with Free Speech, please join me at AMERICA SPEAK OUT (https://www.americaspeakout.com) where forums shall be active in about a week. Accounts can be created now.

Barry, thank you for tolerating my presence here as long as you did.

Goodbye, and good luck![/quote]

"War is peace, slavery is freedom, ignorance is strength".

Looks like the Thought Police came and got Winston because he was guilty of quoting from "The Theory and Practice of Oligarchica collectivism", and questioning Big Brother, so they have taken him to room 101 at the Ministry of Love to be reprogrammed with doublethink.

We can't have people questioning the liberal gospel, people might have independent thoughts which could possibly lead to revolt against Big Brother, (which is a perfect description of our current administration).

Yes, the Waccos must be happier now, because nobody is challenging their upside down, doublethink World (Except for D-cat and I).

I find it highly amusing that liberals love to refer to other political parties as Big Brother, because Orwell flat out said that he was talking about the inevitable extremism of socialism and communism.

I wonder if I will be the next Outer Party member to be arrested by the thought police for thoughtcrime against Big Brother....

Valley Oak

06-23-2010, 05:17 PM

Free market capitalism must and will be replaced by Social Democracy, as it has been in Europe for over a century.

No matter if your a Liberal or a Conservative a fully socialized economy is whats coming. When the unemployment figures get high enough everything else will collapse. Social medicine and state controlled industries or complete anarchy and fall, those are really the only choice left now. Not everyone has quite realized it yet though.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top">US Jobs Data Shifts Blogs' Focus To Depression From Recession

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</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="TexteGrisGras">Friday December 5th, 2008 / 21h26</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td height="10">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td background="../../Images/imagesSite/Separateur_PointilleGrisH.gif" height="1">https://www.easybourse.com/Images/imagesSite/espaceur.gif</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="15">
</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td colspan="2" class="TexteGris" valign="top"> By Steven Russolillo Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES NEW YORK -(Dow Jones)- Bloggers labeled this economic slowdown a recession months ago. Now some have shifted their sights to the dreaded "D" word.
November's U.S. employment data have prompted many strategists and market observers in the blogosphere to wonder whether this recession will ultimately turn into a depression. Even though the recession is officially a year old, more than half a million jobs lost in November signals the downturn may get worse before it gets better as the labor market faces headwinds from virtually every sector of the U.S. economy.
"Today's employment report begs the question of whether the meltdown we're experiencing should be called a Depression," Robert Reich, former secretary of labor and professor at the University of California at Berkeley, wrote on his blog Friday. "When FDR took office in 1933, one out of four American workers was jobless. We're not there yet, but we're trending in that direction."
The Bureau of Labor Statistics said U.S. nonfarm payrolls fell 533,000 in November, the largest decline since December 1974 and the 11th-consecutive monthly decline. The unemployment rate rose to 6.7%, the highest since October 1993. Economists were expecting the report to show a decline of 350,000 jobs with an unemployment rate of 6.8%.
The average workweek dropped to 33.5 hours, which Reich noted is the shortest number of hours since the Labor Department began keeping records on hours worked in 1964.
"A significant number of people are working part-time who'd rather be working full time," Reich said. "Coupled with those who are too discouraged even to look for work, I'd estimate that the percentage of Americans who need work right now is approaching 11% of the workforce."
The jobs data also prompted University of Maryland professor Peter Morici to wonder whether the U.S is headed for a depression.
"The threat of a widespread depression is now real and present," Morici said, according to The Wall Street Journal's Real Time Economics blog.
The Dow Jones Industrial Average fell as much as 257 points earlier in Friday's trading session, but the index recovered and was recently up 150 points as investors believe a bad jobs report may have already been priced into the market.
Portfolio.com's Felix Salmon labeled the current downturn as "a fully-fledged Great Recession," and said it is fairly obvious that the economy will continue to get worse before it gets better. The 533,000 job losses last month doesn't even include the millions of job cuts General Motors Corp. (GM) is warning about should it be forced into Chapter 7 liquidation, Salmon said.
"The employment bloodbath is only beginning," Salmon wrote on his Market Movers blog. "Anybody still hoping for a swift bounce back is looking increasingly delusional. As we saw this morning, the probability of downside surprises is much greater than the chance that we'll get any good news any time soon."
More than 1.2 million jobs have been lost in the last three months alone. The speed at which the labor market is contracting should certainly raise a red flag, according to Paul Kedrosky, a strategist with Ten Asset Management.
"There is no question this unwinding is happening faster and more savagely than any in memory," Kedrosky wrote Friday on his Infectious Greed blog. "The speed with which carnage slices through this tightly-linked economic system of ours, both globally and locally, is remarkable and unprecedented."
-By Steven Russolillo, Dow Jones Newswires; 201-938-2205; [email protected]
Click here to go to Dow Jones NewsPlus, a web front page of today's most important business and market news, analysis and commentary: Dow Jones NewsPlus - Login (https://www.djnewsplus.com/al?rnd=B8Ivi3kcr48MG8t2c5SWHw%3D%3D). You can use this link on the day this article is published and the following day.
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</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="TexteGrisPetit">Friday December 5th, 2008 / 21h26</td> <td class="TexteGrisPetit" align="right">Source : Dowjones Business News</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="5">
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Speak2Truth

07-16-2010, 12:30 PM

Free market capitalism must and will be replaced by Social Democracy, as it has been in Europe for over a century.

No, thanks. We'd rather not have the Union-orchestrated riots here like they do. We prefer prosperity over enforced mediocrity.

Free-market Capitalism is a key reason this nation, with a miniscule proportion of the world's population, became the world's economic powerhouse with such productivity it could afford to send largesse to the starving (and militarily pummeled) European "social democracies".

A "social democracy" goes bankrupt (and erupts in union-orchestrated riots like those on TV today) because the masses figure out they can vote themselves loot seized by force from the productive. It empowers the least productive and most greedy in society, giving control of society to the worst qualities in human nature.

Foreign nations recognized the threat posed by America's burgeoning prosperity and sound fiscal policy enshrined in our Constitution. They understood what must be done to destroy prosperity so that this nation would not continue as the MUCH BETTER alternative to what they were doing. As the London Times insisted:

If that mischievous financial policy ... should become indurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off its debts and be without debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It wil become prosperous beyond precedent in the history of the civilized governments of the world. The brains and the wealth of all countries will go to North America. That government must be destroyed or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe.

You have sided with our enemies, against human progress and prosperity.

I prefer to side with the Americans and the sound policy established by our nation's Founders.

Today, we can see Barack Obama and other Leftists doing exactly what the London Times insisted must be done - to destroy this nation through overwhelming debt so that it can no longer be prosperous. The enemy has seized the reins and is steering our nation over a cliff.

Humanity will lose this last, great hope for the liberty and prosperity craved by all yet stolen from them throughout history by evil masters.

"Mad" Miles

07-16-2010, 02:10 PM

Aaahh, waccobb.net, where arguments never die...

Early on this thread I said a lot about how one can study Social Theory to gain a better understanding of our economic system and its history. I won't belabor those points. Others here have pointed out the "Free Market Capitalism" is a myth. I'm writing to emphasize that point.

Capitalism, from its inception in the late middle ages, or earlier depending on how you define it in terms of markets, has never, I repeat never, had a "free market". That's a myth, one put out by ideologues to defend the excesses, and celebrate the successes, of Capitalism.

All capitalist markets have been controlled, regulated and/or managed, from the get go. Royal charters, monopolies, Joint Venture Companies, Import Taxes, Tariffs, etc., etc. The pure free market that conservative libertarians celebrate, defend and call for a return to, is just an ideological construct, that has never, and will never exist in actual social reality.

That's not to say there aren't markets, relatively restricted or unrestricted (while still restricted in some ways) that operate in societies. Currently the capitalist market is global, and has been since at least the late seventies to early eighties. It is controlled by monetarism, post Bretton Woods.

Capitalism has always existed in the context of government control over it. Anyone who says different is living in a philosophical construct, a very basic one, that only exists in their own heads.

The real question is, how much, and what kind of government control is needed to permit profitable capitalist enterprises and markets, while still protecting the health, welfare and civil rights of the people, and preserving nature for the creatures (non-human) living in it, while allowing humans to exploit the natural environment and extract from it (and crap back into it) for our own needs and desires.

Until that is the basic question, not returning to some mythical state of Liberty among free economic agents seeking their own benefit in a competitive "free" market system, we're just spinning our wheels on a fast ride to oblivion.

By the way, the U.S. blew up as the latest economic global superpower not simply because of enterprise and entrepeneurial drive among "free economic agents". It gained our present dwindling status through;
<LI class=list_spacer>Huge amounts of exploited natural resources stolen from the original inhabitants
<LI class=list_spacer>Massive amounts of cheap immigrant labor which was easily exploitable and dismissible when not needed (i.e. the Frontier, Don't like it? Move on! During the Palmer Raids of 1922, you got a free ticket for standing room only in a freight car, headed south across the desert, and across the border into Mexico. There were deaths from heat and dehydration.) <LI class=list_spacer>A rapacious capitalist class that didn't hesitate to use intimidation, torture and murder to keep the proles in line.<LI class=list_spacer>Shifts and developments in technology handed down from the European Enlightenment tradition to enhance productivity and profits.
And being luckily situated at a time in world history when prior imperialist powers were being sapped by massive war expenditures and destruction (WWI and WWII). Among just a few of the major phenomena which allowed our national drive to come out on top, for the last fifty or sixty years or so.

There are, of course, many other factors. The ones above are just the ones that leap to mind at the moment. I've left out the question of ideology, how a national self-image as a free, democratic country with guaranteed civil rights and equal opportunity for advancement and wealth holds this house of cards together.

Myths are effective organizing tools for shaping public opinion. Until those myths shatter in the face of experienced reality. Then all bets are off!

Speak2Truth

07-16-2010, 06:53 PM

Capitalism has always existed in the context of government control over it. Anyone who says different is living in a philosophical construct, a very basic one, that only exists in their own heads.

A man has a dozen cows. He milks them. He trades the milk for other goods, with his neighbors.

A doctor makes house calls, gets paid in chickens and potatoes.

Government meddling is nonexistent. And that's a good thing, allowing the parties involved to work out their own mutually beneficial deals. Nobody is skimming off the top and nobody is forcing one to do something for the other at terms disagreeable.

Sure, free market capitalism has existed at many levels.

Government intervention, in this nation, was intended to be minimal, largely restricted to ensuring foreign agents do not undermine our system and that parties within our system keep the deals they make. With maximum economic liberty comes maximum prosperity for those who work towards that goal - and those who emulate them.

The "early Americans" had little interest in exploiting natural resources or in mass production, hence their relative material poverty. As the United States grew, so did technologies that had never existed before. Freedom to pursue growth of wealth in fact inspired such a pursuit. This lesson was learned as early as Jamestown, where collectivism led to starvation and misery, and when collectivism was replaced by individual responsibility and Capitalism, well, the resulting prosperity inspired the Thanksgiving feast.

Private Property Saved Jamestown, And With It, America
Private Property Saved Jamestown, And With It, America | David Boaz | Cato Institute: Daily Commentary (https://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8236)

Collectivism created starvation in Jamestown. Switch to Capitalism saved the colony, producing prosperity.
Collectivism in America Failed Once - A Son Of Liberty (https://steeplemedia.com/blogs/son_of_liberty/archive/2008/10/28/socialism-in-america-failed-once.aspx)

That lesson was not lost on the guys who created the United States Government. It should not be lost on us today as we see European Socialism collapsing into bankruptcy and riots - as American Socialists pillage this nation to try to keep their foreign counterparts funded for just a little longer.

In all too many other nations, governments did (and still do) punish those who worked to achieve personal wealth. This was a response to the Renaissance in which private wealth and trade blossomed, taking political power out of the hands of those who thought they deserved to be rulers. Prosperous persons with sufficient wealth to be free of dependence on government are a terrible fright to Statists.

Thank God our Founders believed in freedom and Capitalism rather than the Socialist State that has brought ruin to the masses worldwide.

But the Socialists are doing the same to us now. George Soros and his buddies prospered by crashing the economy of Britain. Now they're attacking the economy of the USA in the same manner.

They can only do this because Government (and the Federal Reserve) have got their hooks into our economy and Government is now run by folks determined to screw it all up. It's their ideology.

"Mad" Miles

07-16-2010, 07:11 PM

Wow!

So capitalism hasn't had anything to do with the state of the world, or the U.S. economy!

It's all the Socialists fault!

Sub-Prime mortgages, Derivatives, Bundled Garbage Investment Instruments, those were all created by Socialists!

Eliminating regulation on the financial markets, deep sea oil extraction, EPA, etc.

The Socialists did it!

The Gilded Age, Great Depression, Global Wars, Socialists, Socialists, Socialists!!!

When will the Cold War END?

When will we return to the glory days of primitive accumulation, rural economies, local markets based on barter and the products from the sweat of the human brow and the calluses on a working persons hands. Nobody was troubled by evil, greedy Socialists when the world was an agrarian, pastoral Paradise!

Oh wait, those fucking Diggers and Owenites, they're the ones responsible for the Industrial Revolution that's screwed everything up!

Grrrrrrrr, makes me soooo MAD!!!!

Bwaaaahhhhaaaahhhhhhhaaaaaaahhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Speak2Truth

07-16-2010, 07:25 PM

Sub-Prime mortgages, Derivatives, Bundled Garbage Investment Instruments, those were all created by Socialists!

Well, since you brought it up...

"Affirmative Action" forced on the home lenders by Clinton Administration, leading to eventual disaster
Video of Clinton's HUD Secretary boasting of victory in forcing lenders to comply
YouTube - EVIDENCE FOUND!!! Clinton administration's "BANK AFFIRMATIVE ACTION" They forced banks to make BAD LOANS and ACORN and Obama's tie to all of it!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivmL-lXNy64)

How banks were bullied into making bad loans
'Community activists' used pressure tactics to secure high-risk mortgages
How banks were bullied into making bad loans (https://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=94031)

Obama, working with ACORN, Sued Citibank Under CRA to Force it to Make Bad Loans – UPDATED
Obama Sued Citibank Under CRA to Force it to Make Bad Loans – UPDATED The IUSB Vision Weblog (https://iusbvision.wordpress.com/2008/09/30/obama-sued-citibank-under-cra-to-force-it-to-make-bad-loans/)

Update: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Invest in Lawmakers
Barak Obama and John Kerry are number two and three
Update: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Invest in Lawmakers - OpenSecrets Blog | OpenSecrets (https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/09/update-fannie-mae-and-freddie.html)

Barack Obama Taps Former Fannie Mae CEO Jim Johnson to Help Choose Running Mate
Barack Obama Taps Former Fannie Mae CEO Jim Johnson to Help Choose Running Mate - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com (https://www.associatedcontent.com/article/781141/barack_obama_taps_former_fannie_mae.html)

Shocking Video Unearthed: Democrats in their own words Covering up the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac Scam that caused our Economic Crisis
YouTube - Shocking Video Unearthed Democrats in their own words Covering up the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac Scam that caused our Economic Crisis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs)

Snopes: Bush Admin tried to rein in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Congressional Democrats, with Barney Frank as spokesman, thwarted the effort.
snopes.com: Fannie Mae Eases Credit to Aid Mortgage Lending (https://www.snopes.com/politics/business/easescredit.asp)

I hope you are reading this stuff. That way, when you make that assertion, you can have the facts to back it up.

podfish

07-17-2010, 08:44 PM

cool. Len's replacement is here with even more outrage, a stronger religious component, and a stronger sense of left vs. right extremism. So no chance the badminton games will cease.

No, thanks. We'd rather not have the Union-orchestrated riots here like they do. We prefer prosperity over enforced mediocrity...... The enemy has seized the reins and is steering our nation over a cliff.

Humanity will lose this last, great hope for the liberty and prosperity craved by all yet stolen from them throughout history by evil masters.

podfish

07-17-2010, 09:07 PM

as Miles said, this has never happened. Either the feudal lord comes to get his share, the taxman comes, the bandits come, the barbarians come. The evil thieving taxman and lord defend against the bandits, if they exist. If they don't exist, neither does the man's little dairy. In no case did he exist in isolation.
It's like saying, "a man has a switch on his wall. He flips it and there's light. No need for outside support."

A man has a dozen cows. He milks them. He trades the milk for other goods, with his neighbors.

A doctor makes house calls, gets paid in chickens and potatoes.

Government meddling is nonexistent. ...

"Mad" Miles

07-17-2010, 10:02 PM

cool. Len's replacement is here ...

Yo podfish,

Since I'm such a stickler for the facts, I feel compelled to point out that S2T has been a wacoon for some time. But he did take a break from his spouting.

"Thar She Blows!!!"

(Sorry, I've been reviewing Melville's classic.)

How do I know this? Because he made my "ignore" list (18 and counting! except three of those might not count since they've been "evicted" from wacco-landia) soon after first appearing.

I have this little problem with the "View Post" icon, so conveniently located.

For someone as terminally curious as moi, it's just too easy to open the missives from the abject.

Still, I like the reminder that this is someone I've concluded has little to say, to which I can give credence.

It's kind of a buffer, reminding me to breath, before looking into the abyss.

Tit for Tat Baby! 'til we drop!!

(G.D.F.S.!!!)

Hotspring 44

07-18-2010, 12:13 AM

It has been "replaced"; restructured to it's true self... ..."Free Market" :poof:Cannibalism.:poof: