Questioning Commerical post charges, poll?

[smonday]

Would you consider a poll on this? I really object to being charged to put out news of an art event where the artist may sell the occasional piece, and is struggling to survive, or a young person is trying to earn a few dollars while in high school or college, or a struggling mom or unemployed handyman is reaching out for a customer.
Craigslist doesnt charge, and it seems so not in the spirit of Wacco.

I can appreciate a commercial charge for someone who has a storefront or regular business that is operated daily.

How do you all feel about this. Barry, would you consider doing a poll. I tried posting a comment in the commercial space but couldnt find the send button!

Stella Monday

[MsTerry]

Barry considers Wacco to be a Bulletin Board.
As far I know BB's allow postings such as what you describe to be posted for free.


Would you consider a poll on this? I really object to being charged to put out news of an art event where the artist may sell the occasional piece, and is struggling to survive, or a young person is trying to earn a few dollars while in high school or college, or a struggling mom or unemployed handyman is reaching out for a customer.
Craigslist doesnt charge, and it seems so not in the spirit of Wacco.

I can appreciate a commercial charge for someone who has a storefront or regular business that is operated daily.

How do you all feel about this. Barry, would you consider doing a poll. I tried posting a comment in the commercial space but couldnt find the send button!

Stella Monday

[Barry]

Would you consider a poll on whether your art work should be free, Stella?

My business model is different from Craigslist. Whereas CL requires a $75 fee to post a job offered, here it is free. CL is based in urban centers with much different business mix than here, and is vastly bigger with its attending economies of scale, scams, and impersonal use.

My business model is really simple: I ask people who are using this service as a way to earn money to help support this service with a modest membership contribution, while all other posting is free. That seems fair to me.

I do have expenses in running this service, it takes a lot of work and I do try to scratch out a modest income from it. It is how I contribute to society and I am often told how it makes a big difference in people's lives. I ask for very little in return.

I think the commercial posting fee is also helpful in focusing what commercial postings belong here. If our community members are interested in a commercial offering then advertising here is an extraordinarily good value and very easy. If people are not interested after several posts, then its just as well those posts are no longer submitted. The commercial posting fee allows the poster to make that call rather than me.

I let people under 21 post for free and I regularly grant free commercial posts for a variety of reasons. There is a place for submitting comments to me if you think you should not be subject to the commercial posting guidelines.

I too am "struggling to survive". This is my work as well as my service.

And in your case, Stella, I see that you have posted 132 times, including several commercial posts that were either allowed or slipped through the system, offering your studio apt. for rent, and asking for paid help for both housecleaning and your art sales. You were also kind enough to become a non-commercial supporting member for $24. I would say that you have gotten a very good value.

[Mallory]

Barry,

I think you should charge for commercial posts.

I don't think we should expect freebies or to do work for people for cheap/free. All of us are paying bills and taking care of things in our lives that require money yet there is a persisting idea that any mention of money is akin to sinful.

The pressured idea seems to be that spiritual people give everything for free - or something and if you don't it means you are not being spiritual enough - or something. Bullocks!

Sometimes being CHEAP is being CHEAP!!!

Being cheap is no more spiritual than paying fair for value. If a person wants to run a commercial concern then they need to include a marketing budget to cover marketing their work or event or art show or any concern designed specifically to make them money for personal support. If it's a business then be in business.

By the same token if you ask someone to do a job for you - be willing to pay them a fair wage for their time. Otherwise all you are saying is that other people's hard work is of little value to you which means you agree that your hard work should equally be of little value as well.

PAY!

Mallory

[Tars]

My business model is different from Craigslist. Whereas CL requires a $75 fee to post a job offered, here it is free.

I'm a local business owner, and I have had endeavors which have benefited from Barry allowing me to post a banner ad for free. In my case it was for a charity fundraiser. Thanks again, Barry!

My two cents (in 1985 pennies):

I don't currently use or pay for advertisements on this board. This is only because my business is not specifically geared towards the "conscious community". My client demographics include a much larger swath of Sonoma County population. I don't doubt that advertising to that conscious community via this board is a good choice. I do pay to advertise on a board that is more specifically aimed at my potential clients.

I'm confident that many magnitudes more Sonoma County residents read Craig's List than visit WaccoBB. If your business is mostly "non-conscious", probably better to look there. Also, depending on your ISP, you may have access to the Usenet group called, "sonoma.forsale", which is free (in more ways than one); you might try that as well.

About operating this board as a business: No intended insult to Barry. I wonder if perhaps the banner rates here are maybe too high, since they target a reatively small local community. Another possible method might be to lower rates, and encourage use by a much wider range of advertisers.

I regularly access a broad range of online forums, involving everything from web design, software, to politics, and music. All of those have some mechanism to pay-to-advertise. I myself don't use them, again because my client demographics aren't global. Several of them also inflict "pop-up" or "pop-under" ads. Blecch. Thanks for not inflicting those on us Barry.


I do have expenses in running this service, it takes a lot of work and I do try to scratch out a modest income from it.Barry, I take you at your word on this; I don't understand it though. I've both used and operated BBS' and online forums. After the initial setup, I found them to be mostly self-operating. The work I put into them was mostly to moderate. And that largely disappeared once volunteers took over that duty. I did solicit user donations, which I received enough of to defray hosting/equipment costs. But I didn't use this particular type of board script, so maybe this one requires more attention. I didn't sell banner ads, but could've. If I did, I'd've perhaps looked to make my money by performing graphics ad design.

Again, please be aware that I totally respect your methods for profiting. I participate in local ads here if/when it profits me as well. I occasionally do banner ads here seasonally for specific events I operate in my business. I avoid the temptation to "cheat" by putting ads for my business in my posts, which I have noticed several users do fairly regularly.

the last of my 1985 two cents. Currently the price charged here puts advertising here out of the range of local ad effectiveness for me. If the price was lowered significantly, I would advertise here more.

[iaim2xl]

I completely agree with Mallory. The basic reality is, if there's going to be a community forum, someone has to support it financially. Who exactly does the person complaining about advertising fees think is going to pick up the bill?

In short, it must be the community who uses the forum. The only alternative to charging advertisers is to charge the people reading the forum. Barry tried that and got a grand total of a few dozen people stepping forward. WACCO would have been dead long ago if we went that route. As for the Craigslist comparison, they live on help wanted advertising. There's not enough business of that kind in West County, so the only alternative is to charge people who financially benefit from their postings.

If you're going to do business, then charge enough to cover the COST of doing business, and that certainly includes advertising.


Barry,

I think you should charge for commercial posts.

I don't think we should expect freebies or to do work for people for cheap/free. All of us are paying bills and taking care of things in our lives that require money yet there is a persisting idea that any mention of money is akin to sinful.

The pressured idea seems to be that spiritual people give everything for free - or something and if you don't it means you are not being spiritual enough - or something. Bullocks!

Sometimes being CHEAP is being CHEAP!!!

Being cheap is no more spiritual than paying fair for value. If a person wants to run a commercial concern then they need to include a marketing budget to cover marketing their work or event or art show or any concern designed specifically to make them money for personal support. If it's a business then be in business.

By the same token if you ask someone to do a job for you - be willing to pay them a fair wage for their time. Otherwise all you are saying is that other people's hard work is of little value to you which means you agree that your hard work should equally be of little value as well.

PAY!

Mallory

[smonday]

When my son posted last summer Barry told him he had to pay the commercial rate and when we wrote back said he could have one time free. He was 19. He was quite upset about it and it was sad to see him not follow through with trying to get some local computer work. Barry says he doesnt charge young people under 21, maybe thats new


If you read my postyou can see I wasnt talking about people with ongoing businesses or real or virtual storefronts but ONLY people who might fall under the rubrick of needing free commercial postings. I was suggesting that perhaps there is another way to assess who pays --
perhaps those who make enough to pay income tax on their earnings?

For example, mothers looking for a little extra income, students, people asking for minimum wage jobs, artists and musicians who have only the occasional gig or event ( perhaps 1- 6 times a year), in essence people who make from a few hundred to a few thousand dollars a year at whatever they are advertising!

In my case, a once a year event, for example, just doesnt generate enough income to pay for advertising, and art in general - because the return on general art messages is always so low, you might get one person, but as artists and musicians we all still have to try all the avenues we can . . . but the other examples I gave -- just the people trying to pick up a little extra . . .

I just feel that there is no way for that segment of our population to get what they need, and wacco used to provide it and could still provide it without significant loss to Barry.


Stella




I completely agree with Mallory. The basic reality is, if there's going to be a community forum, someone has to support it financially. Who exactly does the person complaining about advertising fees think is going to pick up the bill?

In short, it must be the community who uses the forum. The only alternative to charging advertisers is to charge the people reading the forum. Barry tried that and got a grand total of a few dozen people stepping forward. WACCO would have been dead long ago if we went that route. As for the Craigslist comparison, they live on help wanted advertising. There's not enough business of that kind in West County, so the only alternative is to charge people who financially benefit from their postings.

If you're going to do business, then charge enough to cover the COST of doing business, and that certainly includes advertising.

[smonday]

I'm ONLY suggesting that people who are only advertising for minimum wage jobs or the little bit extra to pull through, as well as people who have a once or twice or four times a year gig -- including artists and musicians - not be charged commercially. I thought perhaps an indicator might be whether they make enough to pay income tax on their earnings.

To charge someone a commercial rate who makes a few thousand dollars a year, or perhaps a few hundred dollars a year seems not right on this board.

This response sounds like you didnt read my post, I'm not talking about people who have substantial ongoing businesses or real or virtual storefronts not paying.

Im not talking about banner ads, only the charge for posting an event, gig, or small service such as I've outlined above. I'd like to see our community
provide free access for minimum wage earners or below.



Barry,

I think you should charge for commercial posts.

I don't think we should expect freebies or to do work for people for cheap/free. All of us are paying bills and taking care of things in our lives that require money yet there is a persisting idea that any mention of money is akin to sinful.

The pressured idea seems to be that spiritual people give everything for free - or something and if you don't it means you are not being spiritual enough - or something. Bullocks!

Sometimes being CHEAP is being CHEAP!!!

Being cheap is no more spiritual than paying fair for value. If a person wants to run a commercial concern then they need to include a marketing budget to cover marketing their work or event or art show or any concern designed specifically to make them money for personal support. If it's a business then be in business.

By the same token if you ask someone to do a job for you - be willing to pay them a fair wage for their time. Otherwise all you are saying is that other people's hard work is of little value to you which means you agree that your hard work should equally be of little value as well.

PAY!

Mallory

[Barry]

Stella,

I have read your posts and understand them.

Again, this is my business, along with being a community service.

Are you prepared to give your art at the bare cost of materials to the same people ("minimum wage jobs or the little bit extra to pull through, as well as people who have a once or twice or four times a year gig -- including artists and musicians")? Do you want to interview them?

And why should a person who only posts about their business only four times a year get special treatment? I only buy art once every year or three, should I get it free?

Maybe you should give away your unframed prints and only charge for the framed prints?

And what about people who hire house cleaners and garden helpers (as you do)? Should they be relieved from contributing their fair share ($8) to help sustain a community resource that they are using to try to make more money?

The advertising I offer is exceptionally reasonably priced to make it affordable to small scale business that can't afford display ads.

I am open to helping people who are in genuine need and who come from a place of gratitude rather than entitlement. As you noted, I granted your son a free post (I have since raised the age limit to 21), along with many others. I recognize when people give back to this community, whether is by their exceptional helpfulness and contributions online or other community service.

This is a community service and needs to be supported by the community. The nominal commercial posting fee is an important part of the support and I think it is fundamentally fair. I try to draw as clean a line as possible while incorporating compassion for those in true need.

[Geni Houston]

I am very happy to be able to post for free that I am selling a bed, or I have lost my watch, and I am equally happy to pay the commercial rate for the post that advertises my business. I prefer to know, also, whether it be here or on ebay if I am buying from a homemaker cleaning out their garage, or a store putting in ads, one piece at a time.

[shellebelle]

Okay I am finally going to stick the nose in.

It seems like the general community feel is that the community should be supported by each member in a tangible way. That actually feels really good.

On the other hand if all 6,000 members were to give $2 a month this board would net an obvious $12,000 a month. A 6 week banner ad brings in $330 which equates to $55 a week. Of course this is supplied art or art ready. I am not sure how many can run but lets say 10 can for ease of numbers. That would be another $2200.00 a month. So theoretically this site has the potential to make over $15,000 a month and it is supporting at least 3 employees. As far as businesses go this is a reasonable budget profile. There are also a certain $$ amount coming in from the google clics but this is intangible and probably not going to equate to much more than a tank of gas monthly just do to the nature of the board.

So a business creating a marketing plan using Wacco's model would need to include $100 a week for marketing. None of this in truth seems out of line for a marketing plan if you are seeing results.

Sooooo what I think this boils down to is:

1. The rates are not necessarily out of line or even unreasonable IF you are seeing results.

2. Not every client is seeing results and if you can't see results then it is best to take you advertising dollars elsewhere. (This is true of any marketing venue.)

Now on to the twist. Wacco serves two sets of clients and they are often the same person in two modes. First is the bulletin board user and second is the business advertiser.

What would INCREASE Wacco's value to clients?

That's what Barry needs to hear.

Is the focus group (community) too small?

Are the ads not being web crawled? (Thus no Google impact.)

Can you find your ads when you search the web?

Do they reach external target audiences?

Are you getting customer service or is there an area in need of TLC?

If I am doing "x" type of work and need to promote it yet I am on a "y" budget how can I bring tangible value to the community (aka what can I do for the community,board, Barry so my ads are what I aspire them to be) and also create value for my work. We often call this "bartering".

Okay well that's my thoughts at the moment!

[MsTerry]

Yes, Barry needs to show that it pays to advertise on Wacco.
His offer to let youngsters post for free, seems generous, except when you realize that the our Snake Charmer makes less than some 18 yr olds.
What about events? Can they list for free? What if they charge a cover? What about political fundraisers? What if you don't like what they stand for?


Okay I am finally going to stick the nose in.

It seems like the general community feel is that the community should be supported by each member in a tangible way. That actually feels really good.

On the other hand if all 6,000 members were to give $2 a month this board would net an obvious $12,000 a month. A 6 week banner ad brings in $330 which equates to $55 a week. Of course this is supplied art or art ready. I am not sure how many can run but lets say 10 can for ease of numbers. That would be another $2200.00 a month. So theoretically this site has the potential to make over $15,000 a month and it is supporting at least 3 employees. As far as businesses go this is a reasonable budget profile. There are also a certain $$ amount coming in from the google clics but this is intangible and probably not going to equate to much more than a tank of gas monthly just do to the nature of the board.

So a business creating a marketing plan using Wacco's model would need to include $100 a week for marketing. None of this in truth seems out of line for a marketing plan if you are seeing results.

Sooooo what I think this boils down to is:

1. The rates are not necessarily out of line or even unreasonable IF you are seeing results.

2. Not every client is seeing results and if you can't see results then it is best to take you advertising dollars elsewhere. (This is true of any marketing venue.)

Now on to the twist. Wacco serves two sets of clients and they are often the same person in two modes. First is the bulletin board user and second is the business advertiser.

What would INCREASE Wacco's value to clients?

That's what Barry needs to hear.

Is the focus group (community) too small?

Are the ads not being web crawled? (Thus no Google impact.)

Can you find your ads when you search the web?

Do they reach external target audiences?

Are you getting customer service or is there an area in need of TLC?

If I am doing "x" type of work and need to promote it yet I am on a "y" budget how can I bring tangible value to the community (aka what can I do for the community,board, Barry so my ads are what I aspire them to be) and also create value for my work. We often call this "bartering".

Okay well that's my thoughts at the moment!

[Barry]

What about events? Can they list for free?Again, the same principle applies, if your are using WaccoBB.net to help generate income, then I consider it a commercial post and require a modest posting fee.

This applies to free events that serve as a marketing opportunity for other paid products or services.

Community events that charge $5 or less and are not directly linked to a commercial offering are assumed to be non-commercial and may post for free. Likewise any all volunteer benefits and fundraisers may post for free.

[Sabrina]

What about sharing info on cool events that you hear about. For example, I look to Wacco for interesting events to attend on my free time. If I know about a cool event I may want to post it. But it may not be my event at all, just wanting to share the info. It may or may not be an event that charges an entry fee. This to me, is also what a community Bulletin Board is. Sometimes there are some very interesting events that cost a little money, but the people really arn't making money, just covering costs, and I always hear about these events "after" the fact, due to a lack of advertising.
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[Barry]

The basic rule is that if you or someone you know stands to profit from the event, then it is considered a commercial post.

You are most welcome to post events without charge that you feel would be of interest to our community that you (or your friends and family) have no financial interest in. These do not count as commercial posts even if there is someone who may stand to benefit financially.

If you know the person or organization putting on a commercial event, please let them know about WaccoBB.net.

Free events (that are not marketing a product or service) may be posted for free. Free marketing events (ie an introductory evening, or where a primary aspect is the offering of products and services) are considered commercial posts.

Benefits and events that are just covering costs where the producer/promoter does not receive any money are also free.

Events where the suggested contribution is $5 or less are also free.

Basically it comes down to if you (or someone you know) intends to profit from the event, it counts as a commercial post, otherwise it is free.



What about sharing info on cool events that you hear about. For example, I look to Wacco for interesting events to attend on my free time. If I know about a cool event I may want to post it. But it may not be my event at all, just wanting to share the info. It may or may not be an event that charges an entry fee. This to me, is also what a community Bulletin Board is. Sometimes there are some very interesting events that cost a little money, but the people really aren't making money, just covering costs, and I always hear about these events "after" the fact, due to a lack of advertising.
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[photolite]

I've been reading this annoying thread for days now. No matter what service or courtesy is offered, no matter how pure the intent, there will always be those who make it their mission to parse out the loopholes and try to take unfair advantage. Life in general is not bulletproof and no matter how long Barry continues to articulate his intentions and vision for this site, there will be those who will take exception and find the odd inconsistancy. I don't fault the original poster for asking a reasonable question but at this point this chestnut could be tossed around ad infinitum and never be resolved with greater clarity than already provided. So I suggest we give it rest and thank Barry for providing the service and wish him well. Someone needs to take the responsibility of setting guidelines and a degree of flack will always accompany such responsibilities. The site is still generally available for free and if we don't agree with his choices regarding commercial posts then we needn't participate on a commercial level.
Photo

[Zeno Swijtink]

The basic rule is that if you or someone you know stands to profit from the event, then it is considered a commercial post.

You are most welcome to post events without charge that you feel would be of interest to our community that you (or your friends and family) have no financial interest in. These do not count as commercial posts even if there is someone who may stand to benefit financially.


To create more awareness and a greater transparency postings that are "commercial" could be labelled as such, rather than posted under the generic label of "Supporting Member" as now seems to be the case.

Zeno
Supporting Member

[MsTerry]

Well here is a clever loophole one might use to circumvent to pay for advertising.
Instead of advertising what you do you start responding to relevant posts and say what you do.
For example; someone is looking for a hairdresser and you respond and tell every one how wonderful you are.LOL
Any rules against that one yet, Barry?


I've been reading this annoying thread for days now. No matter what service or courtesy is offered, no matter how pure the intent, there will always be those who make it their mission to parse out the loopholes and try to take unfair advantage. Life in general is not bulletproof and no matter how long Barry continues to articulate his intentions and vision for this site, there will be those who will take exception and find the odd inconsistancy. I don't fault the original poster for asking a reasonable question but at this point this chestnut could be tossed around ad infinitum and never be resolved with greater clarity than already provided. So I suggest we give it rest and thank Barry for providing the service and wish him well. Someone needs to take the responsibility of setting guidelines and a degree of flack will always accompany such responsibilities. The site is still generally available for free and if we don't agree with his choices regarding commercial posts then we needn't participate on a commercial level.
Photo

[Barry]

Yes, I have updated the referral guidelines (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?p=19049#post19049) to include:


2) You may "recommend" yourself, but please make it clear that that is what you are doing in your post. Having your real name in your profile but not in your post is not sufficient.



Well here is a clever loophole one might use to circumvent to pay for advertising.
Instead of advertising what you do you start responding to relevant posts and say what you do.
For example; someone is looking for a hairdresser and you respond and tell every one how wonderful you are.LOL
Any rules against that one yet, Barry?