Prop. 8 is bigotry

[Franklin Johnson]

Prop 8 is a clearly discriminatory and grossly bigoted initiative without a single rational argument to justify it. We have born witness to the role of religion, churches, and the bible being the financial and ideological backers of this repulsive expression of intolerance.

Also considering that not all Republicans voted in favor of Prop 8 and that 70% of African-Americans DID vote in favor of it drives us to the inevitable and logical conclusion:

Religiosity is a source of bigotry, hatred, intolerance, and discrimination.

If you look up the various passages in the bible, a book full of hatred towards women and homosexuality, you will read where it clearly states that a man who lays with another man will surely go to hell. Those may not be the words exactly, depending on which version of the bible you look at but that is definiteyl the message paraphrased.

What to do with religion? People have a constitutional right to advocate and express bigotry but not to impose it on others through statute, as Prop 8 will do if the courts don't throw it out (and I certainly hope that they do).

Even though Prop 8 only passed 52% to 48%, support for it crossed racial, social class, and political affiliations, among other demographics. The strongest common denominator was religious identification. What's this about?

Any observations?

Franklin

[Photoguy]

When the crusaders first entered Jerusalem to liberate it for Christianity they slaughtered everyone. First hand accounts tell of rivers of blood knee high. At that time Jerusalem had quite a few Arab Christians living there, they just did not look like the crusaders. Manifest Destiny here in this country was an excuse to kill any "heathen savages" who stood in the way of white Christians crossing the plains. Every day the news has stories of Muslims killing other Muslims because they are from a different sect. In India Hindus often kill other Hindus of different sects because of their differences. The list of religious people murdering other religious and non-religious people who are slightly different from themselves is long and spans the entire length of history. Religion isn't bigotry, it's murder!

[patzy]

Prop 8 is a clearly discriminatory and grossly bigoted initiative without a single rational argument to justify it. We have born witness to the role of religion, churches, and the bible being the financial and ideological backers of this repulsive expression of intolerance.

Also considering that not all Republicans voted in favor of Prop 8 and that 70% of African-Americans DID vote in favor of it drives us to the inevitable and logical conclusion:

Religiosity is a source of bigotry, hatred, intolerance, and discrimination.

If you look up the various passages in the bible, a book full of hatred towards women and homosexuality, you will read where it clearly states that a man who lays with another man will surely go to hell. Those may not be the words exactly, depending on which version of the bible you look at but that is definiteyl the message paraphrased.

What to do with religion? People have a constitutional right to advocate and express bigotry but not to impose it on others through statute, as Prop 8 will do if the courts don't throw it out (and I certainly hope that they do).

Even though Prop 8 only passed 52% to 48%, support for it crossed racial, social class, and political affiliations, among other demographics. The strongest common denominator was religious identification. What's this about?

Any observations?

Franklin

https://www.couragecampaign.org/page/invite/SpecialComment

[Franklin Johnson]

Thank you! Truly outstanding statements. Right on the mark.

Franklin



https://www.couragecampaign.org/page/invite/SpecialComment

[Dixon]

Let's not paint all religions, or all religionists, with the same brush. Even within the patriarchal religions, there are quite a few individuals and even some entire sects who are more enlightened on homosexuality and other social issues.

Having said that, I recognize the correlation between religiosity, especially the more conservative varieties, and various manifestations of bigotry and oppression. Particularly problematical is the sad fact that it's often impossible to reason religionists out of their bigotry because they take things on "faith" (i.e., believing whatever meets your needs regardless of evidence or logic), which exempts them from reasonable critique. The result is rigid closed-mindedness, seen as a virtue!

Every time this issue comes up, I thank heathen that I left religion behind nearly 40 years ago. As a former Mormon AND fundamentalist, I can testify to the fact that I was inculcated with homophobia, misogyny, nationalism, racism, imperialism and anti-intellectualism in both churches. Religion in general has a lot to answer for. Unfortunately, it will not have to answer for its sins any time soon.

Yours in Christ--not!

Dixon


Prop 8 is a clearly discriminatory and grossly bigoted initiative without a single rational argument to justify it. We have born witness to the role of religion, churches, and the bible being the financial and ideological backers of this repulsive expression of intolerance.

Also considering that not all Republicans voted in favor of Prop 8 and that 70% of African-Americans DID vote in favor of it drives us to the inevitable and logical conclusion:

Religiosity is a source of bigotry, hatred, intolerance, and discrimination.

If you look up the various passages in the bible, a book full of hatred towards women and homosexuality, you will read where it clearly states that a man who lays with another man will surely go to hell. Those may not be the words exactly, depending on which version of the bible you look at but that is definiteyl the message paraphrased.

What to do with religion? People have a constitutional right to advocate and express bigotry but not to impose it on others through statute, as Prop 8 will do if the courts don't throw it out (and I certainly hope that they do).

Even though Prop 8 only passed 52% to 48%, support for it crossed racial, social class, and political affiliations, among other demographics. The strongest common denominator was religious identification. What's this about?

Any observations?

Franklin

[Sylph]

I do want to point out that most Episcopalians are on the record as being tolerant of gay people; the Bishops were against Prop 8.
I think the Mormons were a big source of support for the proposition as well as the Hispanic Catholics.
On the other hand, some middle-aged, non-religious white guys I know were also pro 8, probably due to homophobia.

[Franklin Johnson]

I need to correct a piece of data in my original post. The African-American vote in favor of Prop 8 was only in the 56-60% range, not 70% as I had stated earlier.

My apologies,

Franklin



Prop 8 is a clearly discriminatory and grossly bigoted initiative without a single rational argument to justify it. We have born witness to the role of religion, churches, and the bible being the financial and ideological backers of this repulsive expression of intolerance.

Also considering that not all Republicans voted in favor of Prop 8 and that 70% of African-Americans DID vote in favor of it drives us to the inevitable and logical conclusion:

Religiosity is a source of bigotry, hatred, intolerance, and discrimination.

If you look up the various passages in the bible, a book full of hatred towards women and homosexuality, you will read where it clearly states that a man who lays with another man will surely go to hell. Those may not be the words exactly, depending on which version of the bible you look at but that is definiteyl the message paraphrased.

What to do with religion? People have a constitutional right to advocate and express bigotry but not to impose it on others through statute, as Prop 8 will do if the courts don't throw it out (and I certainly hope that they do).

Even though Prop 8 only passed 52% to 48%, support for it crossed racial, social class, and political affiliations, among other demographics. The strongest common denominator was religious identification. What's this about?

Any observations?

Franklin

[babaruss]

https://www.couragecampaign.org/page/invite/SpecialComment

People tend to get lost when it comes to the Bible.
I try to remember that the information comprising it's total is but a fraction of ancient writings from those 'ancient' times.
What is a mish mosh of selected writings...not remotely in chronological order, nor in same time frame, is not something I choose to accept as a either God given or 'holy'.
There are romance stories, endless numbering who came from who, a whole slough of rules regarding behavior, diet, and the like.
I don't have any problem accepting that this was what people were being asked to believe at that time. hey every society trys to make order out of chaos. Maybe this was the best they could do at that time.
Why on earth people see fit to try and apply a semitic peoples cultural stumbling about (to establish some sort of order) to todays world amazes me no end.
I take every thing I read with a grain of salt.
Of course I had to douch my mind spirit and soul with an ocean of salt before I could cleanse myself of al those early childhood biblical teachings... foisted upon me by well meaning, but ignorant church people... before I could get to this my current level of understanding.
I'm no longer inclined to fritter my time away blaming the world's religions for anything.
Blame is such an easy game.... all human history considered.
Far better that I surrender finger pointed, and self righteous judging, to those better able to do so.
It is enough for me to remember that it is my choice (if not sacred duty) to live my life as I see fit.
Gibran said something akin to: 'dance but trip against no man's chains'.
It's taken me a long time to venture out on life's dance floor, but I'm starting to get the hang of it.
It's up to each of us to decide what dance we want for ourselves.
Mine no longer allows from the assigning of blame, nor for condemming the ignorant for being ignorant.
The fact is that in my own ignorance I have stepped on far too many toes to allow me to feel even a tiny bit superior to those whose ways differ from mine.
Russ

[Braggi]

... The fact is that in my own ignorance I have stepped on far too many toes to allow me to feel even a tiny bit superior to those whose ways differ from mine.
Russ

Russ, I appreciate your post and your point of view. However, I see no reason to avoid a feeling of superiority when your ways are clearly superior to someone else's.

Face it: not all religions are created equal. It's OK to judge. Why are we so careful to avoid being or appearing judgemental? If we don't judge we make bad decisions.

Judgement has gotten a bad rap. Feeling superior has gotten a bad rap. Belligerence we need to avoid. Close mindedness we need to avoid. Violence we need to avoid. But considering everyone's point of view and everyone's way of life as equally valid is dangerous and is a form of denial.

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

does this mean you are for prop 8?


But considering everyone's point of view and everyone's way of life as equally valid is dangerous and is a form of denial.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Braggi wrote:
But considering everyone's point of view and everyone's way of life as equally valid is dangerous and is a form of denial.

-Jeff


does this mean you are for prop 8?

You know me better than that, MsTerry. I think Prop. 8 was an expression of bigotry and intolerance and that is an inferior position to my own.

-Jeff

[babaruss]

Russ, I appreciate your post and your point of view. However, I see no reason to avoid a feeling of superiority when your ways are clearly superior to someone else's.

Face it: not all religions are created equal. It's OK to judge. Why are we so careful to avoid being or appearing judgemental? If we don't judge we make bad decisions.

Judgement has gotten a bad rap. Feeling superior has gotten a bad rap. Belligerence we need to avoid. Close mindedness we need to avoid. Violence we need to avoid. But considering everyone's point of view and everyone's way of life as equally valid is dangerous and is a form of denial.

-Jeff

I see reasons for not feeling 'superior' to other evolving beings (and their points of view). A bit of humility is always useful....remembering that all beings evolve at different paces.

Life is for learning (imho) and time and experience are what makes learning possible.
Ignorance leads to fearfilled choices, and fear causes all manner of bad choices.
The 'superior' thinking and 'judgement' of countless leaders and teachers of country, village, sect, religious order, etc. has done all manner of harm.

Decernment is a far better word than judgement...Decernment leads to awakening, whereas judgement leads to feeling 'superior'...which to me is foolish, as well as dangererous.

I suppose for the sake of biblical precidence I could quote Jesus who is to have said: "Judge not lest ye be judged..(judged) by the very judgement by which you have judged."

Whether you care to believe it or not ..every persons belief system is valid and right...if only for that person.
Who am I to tell another what he or she can believe. Isn't that where all these wars come from ?
If I want freedom to believe as I choose I have to afford that same freedom to others.
I don't have to agree with, or even like, what another person believes in, but I must accept their right to believe as they so choose.

If one is truly open minded, ideas like 'superiority' and 'judgement' cannot come into play. An open minded person understands that life unfolds for people in different ways, and at different paces.
Again this is only my personal take on things and even this is subject to change.
Russ

[MsTerry]

nonono, Jeff
Prop 8 is about equal rights for people with different lifestyles.


You know me better than that, MsTerry. I think Prop. 8 was an expression of bigotry and intolerance and that is an inferior position to my own.

-Jeff


But considering everyone's point of view and everyone's way of life as equally valid is dangerous and is a form of denial.

-Jeff
If you use your formula on gay marriage, well, the outcome would be that it is dangerous and a form of denial.

[MsTerry]

The problem with Jeff's formula is that it assumes he is always right and therefore others are in denial. What follows is that Jeff was also right when he was younger, even though he has now denounced his past,
If Jeff were to meet the younger Jeff, they both would think they are right.

Baba, I agree, People learn at different paces and everybody thinks they are right, right?
I've never heard anybody say; I am doing this because I am convinced this is wrong.


I see reasons for not feeling 'superior' to other evolving beings (and their points of view). A bit of humility is always useful....remembering that all beings evolve at different paces.

Life is for learning (imho) and time and experience are what makes learning possible.
Ignorance leads to fearfilled choices, and fear causes all manner of bad choices.
The 'superior' thinking and 'judgement' of countless leaders and teachers of country, village, sect, religious order, etc. has done all manner of harm.

Decernment is a far better word than judgement...Decernment leads to awakening, whereas judgement leads to feeling 'superior'...which to me is foolish, as well as dangererous.

I suppose for the sake of biblical precidence I could quote Jesus who is to have said: "Judge not lest ye be judged..(judged) by the very judgement by which you have judged."

Whether you care to believe it or not ..every persons belief system is valid and right...if only for that person.
Who am I to tell another what he or she can believe. Isn't that where all these wars come from ?
If I want freedom to believe as I choose I have to afford that same freedom to others.
I don't have to agree with, or even like, what another person believes in, but I must accept their right to believe as they so choose.

If one is truly open minded, ideas like 'superiority' and 'judgement' cannot come into play. An open minded person understands that life unfolds for people in different ways, and at different paces.
Again this is only my personal take on things and even this is subject to change.
Russ

[babaruss]

The problem with Jeff's formula is that it assumes he is always right and therefore others are in denial. What follows is that Jeff was also right when he was younger, even though he has now denounced his past,
If Jeff were to meet the younger Jeff, they both would think they are right.

Baba, I agree, People learn at different paces and everybody thinks they are right, right?
I've never heard anybody say; I am doing this because I am convinced this is wrong.

A Jesuit retreat Master once remarked: I'm an idiot, you're and idiot, so why are we arguing ?" That sort of sums it up for me...having said that and being the idiot I am..I often forget and end up arguing anyway.
What has slowly been taking over my thought process is 'what does it matter anyway'. the surrendering of my over inflated ego seems to make it easier to accept differing points of view...or at least accept the person having them.
Russ

[zenekar]

Russ,

I appreciate your perspective re. religion and that individuals and societies evolve at different rates. But, if those who hold on to beliefs that cause harm or restrict others' human rights, impose their beliefs, esp. through laws, one cannot expect humility from the victim.

European settlers/occupiers considered Africans and Indigenous peoples to be less than 100% human. I reckon that the people subjected to such a belief didn't (and don't) consider those beliefs to be "valid." Same logic applies to homophobia, when some people's beliefs infringe on others' human rights.

Attila
---




I see reasons for not feeling 'superior' to other evolving beings (and their points of view). A bit of humility is always useful....remembering that all beings evolve at different paces.

Life is for learning (imho) and time and experience are what makes learning possible.
Ignorance leads to fearfilled choices, and fear causes all manner of bad choices.
The 'superior' thinking and 'judgement' of countless leaders and teachers of country, village, sect, religious order, etc. has done all manner of harm.

Decernment is a far better word than judgement...Decernment leads to awakening, whereas judgement leads to feeling 'superior'...which to me is foolish, as well as dangererous.

I suppose for the sake of biblical precidence I could quote Jesus who is to have said: "Judge not lest ye be judged..(judged) by the very judgement by which you have judged."

Whether you care to believe it or not ..every persons belief system is valid and right...if only for that person.
Who am I to tell another what he or she can believe. Isn't that where all these wars come from ?
If I want freedom to believe as I choose I have to afford that same freedom to others.
I don't have to agree with, or even like, what another person believes in, but I must accept their right to believe as they so choose.

If one is truly open minded, ideas like 'superiority' and 'judgement' cannot come into play. An open minded person understands that life unfolds for people in different ways, and at different paces.
Again this is only my personal take on things and even this is subject to change.
Russ

[Franklin Johnson]

Right on, Attila! That's exactly what this thread is all about in the first place.

Your post puts this debate back on track with the intent of the original message as well as into its proper perspective. All the rest are digressions.

Prop 8 is bigotry, pure and hard. Supporters of Prop 8 don't have any right whatsoever to take away the rights of others, gay, black, or otherwise. This fight has not ended yet. It's going for the long haul. California courts are going to bounce Prop 8 out on its ear.

Franklin



Russ,

I appreciate your perspective re. religion and that individuals and societies evolve at different rates. But, if those who hold on to beliefs that cause harm or restrict others' human rights, impose their beliefs, esp. through laws, one cannot expect humility from the victim.

European settlers/occupiers considered Africans and Indigenous peoples to be less than 100% human. I reckon that the people subjected to such a belief didn't (and don't) consider those beliefs to be "valid." Same logic applies to homophobia, when some people's beliefs infringe on others' human rights.

Attila
---

[babaruss]

I disagree with the victimization aspect of your argument.
Buddha taught: "hatred ceases not with hatred".
Or put yet another way...ignorance begets ignorance.
He also said do not "cry out..oh look how badly they treated me...look how I was knocked down and beaten".
Message there is to find a healthier way of dealing with the ignorance of others.

Anything less than a humble approach is doomed to failure at least as far as dealing with human failings are concerned (imho).
'Light not heat' is a more practical and productive way to deal with changing the minds of others. Perhaps I should say...a better means of offering new perspectives/ideas for their perusal.

Awareness can not be forced upon anyone.
Understanding comes slow to most...rarely does one suddenly 'get it' and rush out to live the enlightened life.

Earlier I posted some comments about pretty much what you are talking about here.
My ancestors comprise Native Americans, at least one Black slave, several Irish slaves...indentured servants who incidentally were treated far worse that Black slaves. Reason being Black slaves were life long slaves while the Irish indentured servants were worked to death to get the most out of the limited time they were to serve.
To add to this mix, I have ancestors on both sides of the civil war...civil war if you were with the North...war between the states if you were with the South.
I've heard all manner of stories about who did what to who.
Some of my ancestors were the perpetrators of the wrongs you mentioned..others were the so called victims.

I cannot undo my past let alone undo my ancestors past.
You cannot legislate intelligence, love, compassion, or any other worthy human attributes.
I can only learn as I go as does every other being on this planet does.

I could go on forever citing my own errors, bigotry, failings etc, but what's the point. In ignorance I was a bigot, a flag waving patriot, a homophobe,
and countless other things.


I do not distance myself from where I have been regardless of what I have done, or how shameful that wrong was. Life is for learning...time makes learning possible. That's my path...that's probably the path for all beings, but I'm only sure of what is proper for me today.

I learned from the examples set before me as a child..I unlearned through the examples set before me as a maturing adult.
I mean really where to hell was I going to dip my small child's cup for a sip of compare and contrast when my well was poluted.

In many areas I am no doubt still bigoted, ...asleep, unaware...call it what you will. In time perhaps those failings will change as I recognize them.
Until then I accept myself (and all others) just as I (they) are right now.

I'm afraid I've rattled on way to much here.
Take what I offer for whatever worth you deem it.
Russ












Russ,

I appreciate your perspective re. religion and that individuals and societies evolve at different rates. But, if those who hold on to beliefs that cause harm or restrict others' human rights, impose their beliefs, esp. through laws, one cannot expect humility from the victim.

European settlers/occupiers considered Africans and Indigenous peoples to be less than 100% human. I reckon that the people subjected to such a belief didn't (and don't) consider those beliefs to be "valid." Same logic applies to homophobia, when some people's beliefs infringe on others' human rights.

Attila
---

[babaruss]

Bigotry. ignorance (not knowing), what's the difference ?
The 'Church' has no business entering into politics.
The 'People' have no business voting on issues pertaining to
the rights of others. The constitution makes everything clear
already.
Why either of these situations were allowed to happen is the
only real argument that should be taking place here.
Since that's not happening...all we can do is wait for the
Supreme Court to deal with this whole mess.
Meanwhile pissing, and moaning, about how vile the church
is, or what a bunch of bigots there are in this world, is
not only counter productive, but is a huge waste of time
as well.
And while Bigotry is the main subject matter here:
Consider this ..just because one person's belief clash with
yours does not mean that person is a bigot. It only makes
that person may be locked into his, or her, own flawed belief
system.
'Educate rather that alienate' is a far saner, productive
approach to people who are locked in, afraid, or just ignorant.

It worked for me when I was running an AIDS program during
a time when PWA's were first class pariahs.
In a relatively short time, people who screamed about having
PWA's anywhere near them became our cheif source of support.
Russ


Right on, Attila! That's exactly what this thread is all about in the first place.

Your post puts this debate back on track with the intent of the original message as well as into its proper perspective. All the rest are digressions.

Prop 8 is bigotry, pure and hard. Supporters of Prop 8 don't have any right whatsoever to take away the rights of others, gay, black, or otherwise. This fight has not ended yet. It's going for the long haul. California courts are going to bounce Prop 8 out on its ear.

Franklin

[Franklin Johnson]

I have just one question for you, Russ:

Indeed, why were either of these situations allowed to happen?

Franklin



Bigotry. ignorance (not knowing), what's the difference ?
The 'Church' has no business entering into politics.
The 'People' have no business voting on issues pertaining to
the rights of others. The constitution makes everything clear
already.
Why either of these situations were allowed to happen is the
only real argument that should be taking place here.
Since that's not happening...all we can do is wait for the
Supreme Court to deal with this whole mess.
Meanwhile pissing, and moaning, about how vile the church
is, or what a bunch of bigots there are in this world, is
not only counter productive, but is a huge waste of time
as well.
And while Bigotry is the main subject matter here:
Consider this ..just because one person's belief clash with
yours does not mean that person is a bigot. It only makes
that person may be locked into his, or her, own flawed belief
system.
'Educate rather that alienate' is a far saner, productive
approach to people who are locked in, afraid, or just ignorant.

It worked for me when I was running an AIDS program during
a time when PWA's were first class pariahs.
In a relatively short time, people who screamed about having
PWA's anywhere near them became our cheif source of support.
Russ

[Franklin Johnson]

I would like to present another angle on this issue. This is an idea expressed by a friend of mine. It is the following:

It seems to me the entire dialog around this Proposition 8 issue is being framed wrongly. All these polls that ask whether people are in favor of gay marriages or not? Completely the wrong question, as it's no one else's business. That's like asking people if they are in favor of vegetarianism or not. What journalists and pollsters should be asking is: "Do you feel the Government has the right to tell you whom you may or may not marry?" Ask THAT question of people on the street, and I think you'd come up with entirely different statistics! And then we'd have a basis for deciding what policies should be inscribed in law.

What do you think?

Franklin

[Braggi]

I see reasons for not feeling 'superior' to other evolving beings (and their points of view). A bit of humility is always useful....remembering that all beings evolve at different paces.


Humility's fine. No problem with that. When comparing two religions, say one where equality of rights and sanctity of the body are primary values vs. another where subjugation of women and genital mutilation of children are primary values it's pretty easy to see one as superior to the other, or else you're in denial. Judgment is often not easy but sometimes it really is. Sometimes it's obvious.

My problem is that our culture has made it politically incorrect to judge another's religion and I think that's an error.

I'm not talking about judging the intrinsic value of or the superiority of one class or race over another. Yes, I think all beings have value. Do all beings have equal value? I leave that up to your judgement.


... Ignorance leads to fearfilled choices, and fear causes all manner of bad choices.
The 'superior' thinking and 'judgement' of countless leaders and teachers of country, village, sect, religious order, etc. has done all manner of harm.
...

Are you projecting this kind of thinking on me? If so, you have misjudged me.


... Decernment is a far better word than judgement...Decernment leads to awakening, whereas judgement leads to feeling 'superior'...which to me is foolish, as well as dangererous.
...

I think that's a cop out. The word is discernment and it means judgement.

dis·cern·ment (d-sûrnmnt, -zûrn-)
n.
1. The act or process of exhibiting keen insight and good judgment.
2. Keenness of insight and judgment.

I think it's a less "judgement" loaded term. What can I say. It's a cop out.


... I suppose for the sake of biblical precidence I could quote Jesus who is to have said: "Judge not lest ye be judged..(judged) by the very judgement by which you have judged."
...

You have to look at who assembled the Bible. The Roman government wanted a docile population who wouldn't judge the atrocities and mistreatment of the "superiors." Nice when an abuser can claim God told you not to question the abuse you and others must endure. In some cases the history of religions can be written in those terms.

That's another cop out and a way to not take responsibility for what's going on around you.

Russ, I have a lot of respect for you and your gentle ways. However, other posters in this thread have pointed out the fallacy of just living and letting live. That's the path that allows the KKK to lynch innocent people and the Nazis to haul away people who are different from you. There comes a time for judgement, for crying out and for action.

As far as Prop. 8 is concerned, that time is now.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

... "Do you feel the Government has the right to tell you whom you may or may not marry?" Ask THAT question of people on the street, and I think you'd come up with entirely different statistics! And then we'd have a basis for deciding what policies should be inscribed in law.

What do you think?


In terms of getting poll numbers to look the way you'd like, that's fine.

However, there's something you and your friend are missing here: there should be no polling and no questions because the ability to marry in our culture is a right and nobody should be able to remove a right from another person. Not in this country. Not by law.

Individuals are supposed to be protected from "the tyranny of the majority." That's the premise our country was founded upon.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

nonono, Jeff
Prop 8 is about equal rights for people with different lifestyles.

If you use your formula on gay marriage, well, the outcome would be that it is dangerous and a form of denial.

Prop. 8 is about a lack of equal protection under the law. That makes it unconstitutional. It's really that simple.

And as usual your logic is MIA.

-Jeff

[babaruss]

This is closer to 'right thinking' but still off course.
No one should be polling anyone (where other people's preferences, rights. etc. are at stake).

The constitution does not stipulate, or regulate, who does what, as far as the pursuit of happiness is concerned.
The issue should never have been placed on a ballot to begin with.
The church should never have gotten involved politically on this, or any other issue that is of a political nature.
The fact that is was actually put to a vote is where all this chaos came from.

People will naturally support their own point of view when a thing like that happens.
They are absolutely right where it comes to expressing their points of view by ballot, or any other constitutionally acceptable means.
I do not blame people for supporting their own point of view.
I do think that whoever allowed this whole mess to be put on a ballot needs
to be educated, corrected, and set straight (no pun intended).
Russ


I would like to present another angle on this issue. This is an idea expressed by a friend of mine. It is the following:

It seems to me the entire dialog around this Proposition 8 issue is being framed wrongly. All these polls that ask whether people are in favor of gay marriages or not? Completely the wrong question, as it's no one else's business. That's like asking people if they are in favor of vegetarianism or not. What journalists and pollsters should be asking is: "Do you feel the Government has the right to tell you whom you may or may not marry?" Ask THAT question of people on the street, and I think you'd come up with entirely different statistics! And then we'd have a basis for deciding what policies should be inscribed in law.

What do you think?

Franklin

[MsTerry]

Bigotry?
The way you want to crucifix religion, that is bigotry.
You want some more bigotry?
read this, and see the similarities with how you are blaming religion
https://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nws/p/ap_logo_106.png Obama election spurs race crimes around country

<cite class="vcard"> By JESSE WASHINGTON, AP National Writer Jesse Washington, Ap National Writer </cite> <abbr title="2008-11-15T21:00:15-0800" class="recenttimedate">1 hr 17 mins ago</abbr>
<!-- end .byline --> Cross burnings. Schoolchildren chanting "Assassinate Obama." Black figures hung from nooses. Racial epithets scrawled on homes and cars.
Incidents around the country referring to President-elect Barack Obama are dampening the postelection glow of racial progress and harmony, highlighting the stubborn racism that remains in America.
From California to Maine, police have documented a range of alleged crimes, from vandalism and vague threats to at least one physical attack. Insults and taunts have been delivered by adults, college students and second-graders.
There have been "hundreds" of incidents since the election, many more than usual, said Mark Potok, director of the Intelligence Project at the Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors hate crimes.
One was in Snellville, Ga., where Denene Millner said a boy on the school bus told her 9-year-old daughter the day after the election: "I hope Obama gets assassinated." That night, someone trashed her sister-in-law's front lawn, mangled the Obama lawn signs, and left two pizza boxes filled with human feces outside the front door, Millner said.
She described her emotions as a combination of anger and fear.
"I can't say that every white person in Snellville is evil and anti-Obama and willing to desecrate my property because one or two idiots did it," said Millner, who is black. "But it definitely makes you look a little different at the people who you live with, and makes you wonder what they're capable of and what they're really thinking."
Potok, who is white, said he believes there is "a large subset of white people in this country who feel that they are losing everything they know, that the country their forefathers built has somehow been stolen from them."
Grant Griffin, a 46-year-old white Georgia native, expressed similar sentiments: "I believe our nation is ruined and has been for several decades and the election of Obama is merely the culmination of the change.
"If you had real change it would involve all the members of (Obama's) church being deported," he said.
Change in whatever form does not come easy, and a black president is "the most profound change in the field of race this country has experienced since the Civil War," said William Ferris, senior associate director of the Center for the Study of the American South at the University of North Carolina. "It's shaking the foundations on which the country has existed for centuries."
"Someone once said racism is like cancer," Ferris said. "It's never totally wiped out, it's in remission."
If so, America's remission lasted until the morning of Nov. 5.
The day after the vote hailed as a sign of a nation changed, black high school student Barbara Tyler of Marietta, Ga., said she heard hateful Obama comments from white students, and that teachers cut off discussion about Obama's victory.
Tyler spoke at a press conference by the Georgia chapter of the NAACP calling for a town hall meeting to address complaints from across the state about hostility and resentment. Another student, from a Covington middle school, said he was suspended for wearing an Obama shirt to school Nov. 5 after the principal told students not to wear political paraphernalia.
The student's mother, Eshe Riviears, said the principal told her: "Whether you like it or not, we're in the South, and there are a lot of people who are not happy with this decision."
Other incidents include:
_Four North Carolina State University students admitted writing anti-Obama comments in a tunnel designated for free speech expression, including one that said: "Let's shoot that (N-word) in the head." Obama has received more threats than any other president-elect, authorities say.
_At Standish, Maine, a sign inside the Oak Hill General Store read: "Osama Obama Shotgun Pool." Customers could sign up to bet $1 on a date when Obama would be killed. "Stabbing, shooting, roadside bombs, they all count," the sign said. At the bottom of the marker board was written "Let's hope someone wins."
_Racist graffiti was found in places including New York's Long Island, where two dozen cars were spray-painted; Kilgore, Texas, where the local high school and skate park were defaced; and the Los Angeles area, where swastikas, racial slurs and "Go Back To Africa" were spray painted on sidewalks, houses and cars.
_Second- and third-grade students on a school bus in Rexburg, Idaho, chanted "assassinate Obama," a district official said.
_University of Alabama professor Marsha L. Houston said a poster of the Obama family was ripped off her office door. A replacement poster was defaced with a death threat and a racial slur. "It seems the election brought the racist rats out of the woodwork," Houston said.
_Black figures were hanged by nooses from trees on Mount Desert Island, Maine, the Bangor Daily News reported. The president of Baylor University in Waco, Texas said a rope found hanging from a campus tree was apparently an abandoned swing and not a noose.
_Crosses were burned in yards of Obama supporters in Hardwick, N.J., and Apolacan Township, Pa.
_A black teenager in New York City said he was attacked with a bat on election night by four white men who shouted 'Obama.'
_In the Pittsburgh suburb of Forest Hills, a black man said he found a note with a racial slur on his car windshield, saying "now that you voted for Obama, just watch out for your house."
Emotions are often raw after a hard-fought political campaign, but now those on the losing side have an easy target for their anger.
"The principle is very simple," said BJ Gallagher, a sociologist and co-author of the diversity book "A Peacock in the Land of Penguins." "If I can't hurt the person I'm angry at, then I'll vent my anger on a substitute, i.e., someone of the same race."
"We saw the same thing happen after the 9-11 attacks, as a wave of anti-Muslim violence swept the country. We saw it happen after the Rodney King verdict, when Los Angeles blacks erupted in rage at the injustice perpetrated by 'the white man.'"
"It's as stupid and ineffectual as kicking your dog when you've had a bad day at the office," Gallagher said. "But it happens a lot."





Prop 8 is bigotry, pure and hard. Supporters of Prop 8 don't have any right whatsoever to take away the rights of others, gay, black, or otherwise. This fight has not ended yet. It's going for the long haul. California courts are going to bounce Prop 8 out on its ear.

Franklin

[babaruss]

We can get completely crazy bouncing word meanings around.
There are a several meanings pertaining to the word judgement.
I refer to that feeling of 'it's my way or the highway'.
'I'm right and you're wrong'...that sort of thinking.

The world is full of things which are to me repugnant, or even down right horrific.
But what goes on in another's world is not my problem (unless I choose to take it on).
I have enough of my own failings to deal with..and if not that ...then my own country has enough to keep me busy for a life time.

It is o.k in my view, to decide that I do not agree with, nor support certain things. It is not o.k. in my view to feel I am the better person because my views differ..or are to my way of thinking more humane.

Equality is a societal concept which is worth what ever value that particular society places on it. Add to that words like 'freedom', 'justice'. 'rights' and you still are dealing with concepts...not truth.

Likewise, people who mutalite, subjugate, or what have you...are following their own conceptual constructs.
As far as they are concerned their view is the superior one.

They guy who throws himself onto a grenade to save his buddies is in our world a hero.
But the guy who straps on a bomb to destroy invaders is a terrorist.
Both are following their beliefs by putting their lives on the line.

When I stop to examine other peoples points of view..their truth as it were...I find myself trying to find ways of honoring their right to believe as they see fit while at the same time wanting to rid them of those beliefs that I (coming from my societal construct) deem unacceptable. When this happens I find my self getting a bit crazy...I know what I prefer to happen, but at the same time realize that I am imposing my values on others. Huge contradictory mess there...this interferring with another's belief system. And who can really say they are absolutely wrong, and I am absolutely right ?

I am not projecting anything on anyone..I state my clumsy beliefs and let it go at that.

Is it possible that by suggesting I'm a cop out that you are judging me in the way I referred earlier ?

The world is full of people claiming they are guided by God. The one glaring factor in all of this vivtimization is human ignorance both of the leaders and the followers. The victim is often responsible for his own victimization.
Ignorance begets more ignorance.

I take full responsibilty for my own actions, and thoughts.
How the hell am I to take responsibility for another's ignorance ?
When I was young I went constantly into the fray, standing up for not only my rights, but for the down trodden as well.
I've finally seen some of that effort bear fruit...a Black president is the most obvious reward. I feel a bit of joy at knowing I played a part in that happening regardless of how minimal that part may have been.

Over the years I've seen a creeping acceptance of peoples and ideas which were hugely unacceptable when I was a child. This tells me that views are changing, and this is enough for me now.
I'm trying in my tiny way to raise consciousness.. if only my own.
I've been around long enough to know I can no longer raise hell and pretend there will not be consequences.
Insult a man by exposing his ignorance, or by calling him names, and you make an enemy.
Lead by example..live your truth and let it go at that is what works for me today.

If that's a cop out well find me guilty and sentence me to what ever it is you judgement deems suitable.
Russ

[Franklin Johnson]

Jeff, I found this post of yours especially enlightening. I really like your observation that judgment has gotten a bad rap. It's kind of like there is an unwritten commandment in our society that says: "Thou Shalt Not Judge!" And it is a predominant bullshit attitude.

Judgment, like anything else, has its place. And the same people, most of us, who fall prey to this 'commandment' do indeed judge things and people everyday whether we realize it or not. The question is when is it appropriate.

And regarding those folks who have voted yes on Prop 8 and judged same sex marriage as wrong have certainly judged wrongly. And they are going to eat shit when the courts throw out their bigoted, proposed amendment.

Franklin



Russ, I appreciate your post and your point of view. However, I see no reason to avoid a feeling of superiority when your ways are clearly superior to someone else's.

Face it: not all religions are created equal. It's OK to judge. Why are we so careful to avoid being or appearing judgemental? If we don't judge we make bad decisions.

Judgement has gotten a bad rap. Feeling superior has gotten a bad rap. Belligerence we need to avoid. Close mindedness we need to avoid. Violence we need to avoid. But considering everyone's point of view and everyone's way of life as equally valid is dangerous and is a form of denial.

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

The proponents of prop 8 used their judgment to write an amendment to the constitution.
What I am getting from you, is that it is wrong for them to judge you but it is OK for you to judge them.
Not only do you know what is right and wrong, you also know what their punishment will be.
"And they are going to eat shit "
I assume this is a reference to anal sex


Jeff, I found this post of yours especially enlightening. I really like your observation that judgment has gotten a bad rap. It's kind of like there is an unwritten commandment in our society that says: "Thou Shalt Not Judge!" And it is a predominant bullshit attitude.

Judgment, like anything else, has its place. And the same people, most of us, who fall prey to this 'commandment' do indeed judge things and people everyday whether we realize it or not. The question is when is it appropriate.

And regarding those folks who have voted yes on Prop 8 and judged same sex marriage as wrong have certainly judged wrongly. And they are going to eat shit when the courts throw out their bigoted, proposed amendment.

Franklin

[Franklin Johnson]

(I have edited this post)

Ms. Terry, let's cut through the crap here:

Prop 8 is wrong. Period.

You will only be able to see this when the California Supreme Court throws it out because you are unable to see it on your own. 52% of Californians voted to take away a fundamental right from other human beings, something that they don't have either a legal or an ethical right to do. Now the democratic institutions have to do their job and say, "NO!"

The majority of people still need a parent to tell them what's right and wrong (just like you), unfortunately. Now, the government has to do this unpleasant chore with a bunch of grownup children who don't know any better and need to be taught differently. These are grownup children who are bigots, religious bigots, very wealthy bigots, and quite simply people who can't see further than their own nose, and some who can't think for themselves.

The Constitution of California does not authorize a majority to take away the rights of minorities. This includes the right to marry. People who are gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual, etc. are no less human and do not have less rights than anyone else. Their rights cannot be taken away by the passage of Prop 8.

This is really what this is all about. You have missed that. You've missed the larger canvass and I'm disappointed in you because I regarded you as one of the more enlightened people on this list.

Also, the passage of Prop 8 clearly implies that there is something wrong with the LGBTQ, etc Community. And that they must necessarily be treated, legally, as second class citizens. This is the exact same "separate but equal" crap that was overturned in the US Supreme Court's decision, Brown v. Board, 1954. Prop 8 is also a religiously motivated amendment, which violates the US Constitution's separation of church and state. Citizens should not be governed by religion. I don't want other people imposing their religious bigotry on me through the law.

Franklin



The proponents of prop 8 used their judgment to write an amendment to the constitution.
What I am getting from you, is that it is wrong for them to judge you but it is OK for you to judge them.
Not only do you know what is right and wrong, you also know what their punishment will be.
"And they are going to eat shit "
I assume this is a reference to anal sex

[Photoguy]

Prop 8 represents a group of people who share common religious beliefs trying to impose their system of values on others. The reason it is OK to condemn the 8 supporters and their religious beliefs is that they are the ones trying to force their beliefs on others. If you are for 8 then you will most certainly not be a spouse in a gay wedding. This is the blinding influence of religion. It often seems to give its practitioners a belief that when others don't follow some particular dogmatic law they are affecting the religious person directly and personally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o


The proponents of prop 8 used their judgment to write an amendment to the constitution.
What I am getting from you, is that it is wrong for them to judge you but it is OK for you to judge them.
Not only do you know what is right and wrong, you also know what their punishment will be.
"And they are going to eat shit "
I assume this is a reference to anal sex

[MsTerry]

Frankie,
You really are attached to your scatological thinking, wonder where that comes from.



Ms. Terry, let's cut through the crap here:
Franklin




52% of Californians voted to take away a fundamental right from other human beings, something that they don't have either a legal or an ethical right to do.You really are getting silly here.
52% of Californians don't have either a legal or an ethical right to vote???




The majority of people still need a parent to tell them what's right and wrong (just like you), unfortunately.We all have parents, Franklin, and some of us are even fortunate enough to know who they are.

Now, the government has to do this unpleasant chore with a bunch of grownup children who don't know any better and need to be taught differentlyMost things that the government imposes are unpleasant for someone.
.
These are grownup children who are bigots, religious bigots, very wealthy bigots, and quite simply people who can't see further than their own nose, and some who can't think for themselves.You shoudn't be so hard on yourself, just because you hate people who don't agree with you.



The Constitution of California does not authorize a majority to take away the rights of minorities. This includes the right to marry. People who are gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual, etc. are no less human and do not have less rights than anyone else. Their rights cannot be taken away by the passage of Prop 8.Well, it appears that that is what just happened.
Not only in CA, I believe on 30 other states as well


This is really what this is all about. You have missed that. You've missed the larger canvass and I'm disappointed in you because I regarded you as one of the more enlightened people on this list.Frankie, you only joined a month ago

[Franklin Johnson]

After reading your reply, my question to you is how you voted on Prop 8.

You may not want to answer that question; that's your prerogative.

In any case, it doesn't matter how many states amended their constitutions, even if California joins them, because it still doesn't make it ok to deny people their basic civil rights. Democracy has its limits and someday, all of the states that prohibited gay marriage will eventually overturn those decisions.

You are not seeing the equivalence of these bigoted laws to the racist ones that prohibited marriage between whites and blacks decades ago, many in those same states that now prohibit gay marriage. You seem to believe that if the majority of people feel that gay marriage is wrong then they should be able to prohibit it. That's the same as prohibiting people the right to vote or the right to be considered human back in the day when we had slaves.

This issue is not the same as any of the other initiatives that were voted on this year. Many passed with margins similar or slimmer to that of Prop 8. But there is not uproar over them. Have you asked yourself this? You should.

A majority does not have the right to take fundamental rights away from a minority. That is what you fail to see and that is part of what Prop 8 is about.

Franklin



Frankie,
You really are attached to your scatological thinking, wonder where that comes from.




You really are getting silly here.
52% of Californians don't have either a legal or an ethical right to vote???


We all have parents, Franklin, and some of us are even fortunate enough to know who they are.
Most things that the government imposes are unpleasant for someone.
.You shoudn't be so hard on yourself, just because you hate people who don't agree with you.


Well, it appears that that is what just happened.
Not only in CA, I believe on 30 other states as well

Frankie, you only joined a month ago

[Dixon]

I see reasons for not feeling 'superior' to other evolving beings...

This kind of discussion often suffers from confusing two different kinds of judgment. On the one hand, we have judgments that some particular attitude, action or belief is superior to another. On the other hand, we may judge a person in some global sense as being a "bad" or "good" person. The latter kind is arguably not so enlightened, but the former kind of judgment is absolutely necessary and in fact unavoidable. The "superior person" (to paraphrase the I Ching) strives not to be in denial of the fact that he/she judges, but rather to judge reasonably.


...(and their points of view).We necessarily make judgments every day about "points of view". In order to survive, we must judge which points of view regarding what's true are superior (i.e., accurate), and in order to behave morally, we must judge which points of view regarding what's moral are superior.


A bit of humility is always useful...Yes! And such humility includes the willingness to accept that our point of view or actions may be wrong (either in the sense of inaccurate, or in the sense of immoral). Judgment, done properly, helps us evolve from inferior to superior actions and points of view.


...remembering that all beings evolve at different paces... Note that your use of the term "evolve" in this context implies your judgment that one state is superior to another.


Life is for learning (imho) and time and experience are what makes learning possible.Time and experience in the absence of good judgment are just as likely to render false learning (illusion) as true.


The 'superior' thinking and 'judgement' of countless leaders and teachers of country, village, sect, religious order, etc. has done all manner of harm.If you're trying to write off all judgment as bad because much of it has had bad consequences, well, I hope you can see that that's just crappy reasoning.


Decernment is a far better word than judgement...Decernment leads to awakening, whereas judgement leads to feeling 'superior'... Discernment ("decernment") in this context is simply a euphemism for "judgment" which allows you to refer to your own judgments while maintaining your denial that you judge (since you have a judgment that judgment is bad and you apparently wish to feel superior to those who feel superior).


Whether you care to believe it or not ..every persons belief system is valid and right...if only for that person.This is just another way of saying that everyone believes what they believe. It evades the issue of whether what they believe is really true or moral.


...If I want freedom to believe as I choose I have to afford that same freedom to others. I don't have to agree with, or even like, what another person believes in, but I must accept their right to believe as they so choose.Accepting people's right to believe what they choose is NOT the same as validating all of those (often mutually exclusive) beliefs as being true. Or do you really mean to claim that the flat-earthers and the Nazis are just as right as anyone else?


If one is truly open minded, ideas like 'superiority' and 'judgement' cannot come into play. Here you clearly have made a judgment that openmindedness is superior to closedmindedness (and I agree!), while maintaining your denial about the fact that you make judgments about some positions being superior to others.

Perhaps the most damning criticism of your "Judgment is bad" stance is that it's self-canceling! In other words, if it's true, it invalidates itself, because every time you say it, you're judging judgment itself and asserting that your position that nothing is superior to anything else is superior to the other position!

Russ, let me offer a little boost for your next stage of evolving: If you want to be enlightened, do some soul-searching to see your own judgments and feelings of superiority. Stop judging yourself harshly for having judgments; recognize that judgment is necessary for survival and moral action. Stop denying that you have judgments, and instead focus on making your judgments (the criteria by which you decide what beliefs/actions are superior) more reasonable.

Blessings on ya, Russ!

Dixon

[Neshamah]

Marriage is a religious institution. The founders knew what they were doing when they said government and religion should be kept separate. When it matters what government says about your relationship, government has overstepped its bounds.

As long as government is weighing in on religious institutions, it needs to err on the side of being too permissive, in this case, letting people marry whomever they choose. However, in the long term, our society needs robust institutions independent of government so that we can avoid these sorts of bitter debates.

~ Neshamah

[MsTerry]

In your myopic rage you are trying to line up the "good" people separate from the "bad" people. In your blindness you fail to see that sometimes it needs to get worse before it gets better.
Let me ask you a simple question, what street corner were you standing on, on 11/4 and protesting prop 8?


After reading your reply, my question to you is how you voted on Prop 8.

You may not want to answer that question; that's your prerogative.

In any case, it doesn't matter how many states amended their constitutions, even if California joins them, because it still doesn't make it ok to deny people their basic civil rights. Democracy has its limits and someday, all of the states that prohibited gay marriage will eventually overturn those decisions.

You are not seeing the equivalence of these bigoted laws to the racist ones that prohibited marriage between whites and blacks decades ago, many in those same states that now prohibit gay marriage. You seem to believe that if the majority of people feel that gay marriage is wrong then they should be able to prohibit it. That's the same as prohibiting people the right to vote or the right to be considered human back in the day when we had slaves.

This issue is not the same as any of the other initiatives that were voted on this year. Many passed with margins similar or slimmer to that of Prop 8. But there is not uproar over them. Have you asked yourself this? You should.

A majority does not have the right to take fundamental rights away from a minority. That is what you fail to see and that is part of what Prop 8 is about.

Franklin

[babaruss]

I try not to think in terms of inferior and superior. At least not intentionally.
Obviously saying 'so and so makes a fantastic cup of coffe while what's his name's coffee taste like piss' is making a judgement or a comparison.
Parsing words can whip my uneducated ass every time...so I'll just say that 'for me' I choose to direct my life by consciously trying not to presume to know..to assume that I am better than.. etc (where other peoples lives are concerned).
I get very lost trying to 'defend a position' so it's best for me try to find a better way of communicating my ideas without opening a can of worms.
I draw on my life experiences ...some of what I learned is good and some is/was bad. there we go..judgement..superior..inferior can't seem to get awy from that mess can I.
The use of word evolve pertains to the simple fact that we all develop and grow..change..alter our ways of thinking, acting etc.
This does not imply that my path is the correct path for others. It is just my path..it doesn't need another's acceptance.
I'll not do battle with you over the time and experience thing.
I stick to the little I've learned over the course of my life, and leave you to what you have learned over the course of yours.
Time and experience 'can' provide anyone who wishes to learn/change an opportunity to do so.
No one can second guess which experience teaches who what lesson.
Sure you can learn things which go contrary to what another determines to be the right path.
We just went through that experience regarding prop 8.
Lots of presumptions there as to who has the inalienable right to do whatever.
According to each sides 'lights' each side is correct.
You can shred that statement too should you so desire.

Absence of an education leaves me in a poor position to argue anything.

I'm still going to say that one man's truth, or one societies truth is not necessarily my truth...it's just that man's, or that societie's truth.

There is no such thing as a universal way of being, believing...there are only societal morals and truths. Trouble there for many people in one society, is other societies have vastly differing morals and truths.
This does not in anyway make one societies view the superior and the other inferior.
And please no more Adolph Hitler comparisons.
What does not work will not survive for very long.
I'll never argue that my reasoning is not crappy...the world is full of very bright people who can shoot me down in seconds.
The truth for me remains that we all learn at differing paces.
I'll grant you I do in fact use judgement...you made your case there.
I thought (probably bad thing for an aging guy to try and do) it was understood that sitting in judgement of others was where I was coming from.
And 'feeling superior' was in fact a way of demeaning another's point of view or current level of awareness if you will by elevating our selves.
I get the idea.. I judge others constantly, and for what it's worth I'm judging that you need to be right or at least have your positions agreed with.
So what the hell I'll save a lot of hassle and concede you are absolutely right in all that you have said..
But I qualify that rightness as coming from your life experience, and your acquired points of view.
It reflects not a bit on mine.
It only gives you the sense of superiority here...oh dear..I've judged again.
Will this travesty never end !!

Of course 'everyone believes what they believe'. .

I'm am not the one to sit in judgement on what another person chooses to think. Nor am I inclined to deny them their right to believe as they choose.
I never said I was willing to validate anyones beliefs..only that I accepted their right believe as they see fit.

Problems may occur when such views are threatening to my life.
I'm not totally sure about threats to my 'way of life'. That requires more thought than I can muster tonight.
Where did you get the idea I said anyone's way of being is right.
I said as far as their belief sytem goes ...they believe themselves to be right, and who am I to impose my 'right' on their 'rights.'

I'm not in conscious denial of anything...and if I am in any form of denial, upcoming experiences, and time, may give me ample opportunity to self correct should I see the need.

I'm not going to dance with this good judgement bad judgement stuff any more.
My poor old head is aching.
Your offer to boost my enlightenment by directing my path was painfully condescending.

I am fully aware of my ignorance...granted not remotely close to it's full extent..but my process of learning and unlearning works fairly well for me today.
Russ

[Franklin Johnson]

Mendocino/Administration Drive.
Mendocino/College.
Hearn overpass.
Santa Rosa Avenue.
Polling station (election day), a public school on Bryden Lane.
Mendocino/Steele Lane.
I pulled out Yes On 8 signs that were in prohibited public areas (illegal sign postings).
I attended meetings.
I did not do phone banking but I wish I had.
I helped put together signs to be distributed.
I attended the protest at SR City Hall this last Saturday and passed out hand signs to other protesters.
I attended another meeting tonight to help plan out the new strategy while this disgusting proposition is dragged through court.

Please support Lambda Legal and the ACLU's effort by sending them money.

Thank you,

Franklin



In your myopic rage you are trying to line up the "good" people separate from the "bad" people. In your blindness you fail to see that sometimes it needs to get worse before it gets better.
Let me ask you a simple question, what street corner were you standing on, on 11/4 and protesting prop 8?

[MsTerry]

that's funny, I didn't see your name on the volunteer list


Mendocino/Administration Drive.
Mendocino/College.
Hearn overpass.
Santa Rosa Avenue.
Polling station (election day), a public school on Bryden Lane.
Mendocino/Steele Lane.
I pulled out Yes On 8 signs that were in prohibited public areas (illegal sign postings).
I attended meetings.
I did not do phone banking but I wish I had.
I helped put together signs to be distributed.
I attended the protest at SR City Hall this last Saturday and passed out hand signs to other protesters.
I attended another meeting tonight to help plan out the new strategy while this disgusting proposition is dragged through court.

Please support Lambda Legal and the ACLU's effort by sending them money.

Thank you,

Franklin

[Franklin Johnson]

I worked through the Unitarian Universalists on Mendocino Avenue (the Glaser Center). I know the minister and his wife, who both worked on the campaign along with at least 200 volunteers. I seriously doubt you were one of them. I didn't see 'Ms Terry' on the volunteer list.

Please, don't be such a fool in public. You're only incriminating yourself.

Franklin



that's funny, I didn't see your name on the volunteer list

[Zeno Swijtink]

I worked through the Unitarian Universalists on Mendocino Avenue (the Glaser Center). I know the minister and his wife, who both worked on the campaign along with at least 200 volunteers. I seriously doubt you were one of them. I didn't see 'Ms Terry' on the volunteer list.

Please, don't be such a fool in public. You're only incriminating yourself.

Franklin

MsTerry is never a fool in public or incriminating himself since he is hiding himself behind the mask of anonimity.

All but one of his postings in the last 3 years have missed the mark since by being anonymous he never can backs up his tedious moralizing with any link to the challenges of carving out a live for himself; he lacks any detail, any verisimilitude.

[MsTerry]

Yes Franklin, you now have admitted publicly that you are willing to work with someone who practices BIGOTRY!!!
A MINISTER AND HIS WIFE, for Christ's sake!!!
You are a hypocrite!
Not only that, you also have incriminated yourself by admitting that you willingly destroyed private property.
You even demonstrated near a polling place, another violation.
Do you want to confess any other crimes?




Please, don't be such a fool in public. You're only incriminating yourself.

Franklin

[MsTerry]

Oh, Zeno
Are you having that time of the month again?


MsTerry is never a fool in public or incriminating himself since he is hiding himself behind the mask of anonimity.

All but one of his postings in the last 3 years have missed the mark since by being anonymous he never can backs up his tedious moralizing with any link to the challenges of carving out a live for himself; he lacks any detail, any verisimilitude.

[Franklin Johnson]

Wrong again, MsTerrible.

The bible says clearly that a man who lays with another man as he would with a woman will surely burn in hell. This is bigotry. The bible is a source of hatred in contemporary society and government, and Prop 8 is a shining example of it.

I am willing to work with ANYONE who fights bigotry. And in this case, with the campaign against Prop 8, the Unitarian Universalists, as always, rose above the usual religious fanaticism to struggle against discrimination. Che Guevara once said, 'Any honest person can be a revolutionary.'

I committed no crime. If anyone did, it was the Yes on 8 people who knew or should have known that it is ILLEGAL to post political propaganda on public property. Any citizen, myself included, has a right and a civic duty to take those signs off of public property, which I did with great pleasure.

Regarding electioneering near polling places, the law clearly states that it cannot be done within 100 feet of a voting station. We respected the law and spoke with the poll workers and the school principal beforehand to be clear and have consensus on this. No law was broken.

Do you have anymore ignorant, trolling regurgitations, Ms Emotionally Disturbed?

Franklin



Yes Franklin, you now have admitted publicly that you are willing to work with someone who practices BIGOTRY!!!
A MINISTER AND HIS WIFE, for Christ's sake!!!
You are a hypocrite!
Not only that, you also have incriminated yourself by admitting that you willingly destroyed private property.
You even demonstrated near a polling place, another violation.
Do you want to confess any other crimes?

[Sylph]

I'm surprised anyone doesn't know what Unitarians stand for. They are open-minded and inclusive. In this case, religion does not equal bigotry!
https://www.uua.org/visitors/

[babaruss]

I'm surprised anyone doesn't know what Unitarians stand for. They are open-minded and inclusive. In this case, religion does not equal bigotry!
https://www.uua.org/visitors/

Like wise (to a similar degree) are the Presbytarian (sp?) and Episcopalian churches.
At least those who haven't split off because of the acceptance of gays in ministery and marriage controversy.
Russ

[Sylph]

Like wise (to a similar degree) are the Presbytarian (sp?) and Episcopalian churches.
At least those who haven't split off because of the acceptance of gays in ministery and marriage controversy.
Russ
Right, it depends on the specific church, but I know that the Church of the Incarnation in SR is accepting on these issues.

There are widespread protests against the Mormon church at temples and even 'outing' of Mormons who gave money for Prop 8. I'm not sure this is constructive. The Mormon tenets are very rigid about marriage being between and man and a woman.


Several Bay Area Mormons said they would support the right of gay and lesbian unions to have all the rights of married couples. But the word marriage was sacred, pivotal to their concept of families, who can be "eternally united" in the afterlife. A key church document - "The Family: A Proclamation to the World" - says that "marriage between man and a woman is essential to His eternal plan." They also believe that children are entitled to be raised by a father and a mother. https://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/27/BAP113OIRD.DTL
I read about a few brave Mormons who went against their church to protest Prop 8, taking the chance of being excommunicated.
Protests at temples and churches will simply alienate the mainstream church members and solidify them in their sense of 'us versus them', I fear. It's a strategic mistake, in my opinion.

[MsTerry]

Yes Sylph,
thanks for understanding my point
The broad brush that Franklin uses pain(t)s everybody


I'm surprised anyone doesn't know what Unitarians stand for. They are open-minded and inclusive. In this case, religion does not equal bigotry!
https://www.uua.org/visitors/

[MsTerry]

Oh Frankie, now I know why you have so many scatological references.
You just turned 13?



Wrong again, MsTerrible.
Do you have anymore ignorant, trolling regurgitations, Ms Emotionally Disturbed?

Franklin

[Franklin Johnson]

My family are members of the Unitarian Universalists in Santa Rosa. The fact that UUs are not bigots is why we are members in the first place. There are few other denominations or religions that I'm aware of that are so progressive. For example, Quakers and Pagans are also very open minded people who are not bigots.

I think that most religious people look upon UUs as religious outcasts of sorts or renegades or perhaps even heretics.

Franklin



I'm surprised anyone doesn't know what Unitarians stand for. They are open-minded and inclusive. In this case, religion does not equal bigotry!
https://www.uua.org/visitors/

[MsTerry]

Well Franklin, It takes a MsTerry to temper your bigotry quest LOL,
As I sad before, you condemned each and every person including your family with this statement;


Religiosity is a source of bigotry, hatred, intolerance, and discrimination.

Congratulations, you were able to admit that you were wrong (partly of course, LOL) and reduced your statement to
SOME religion is bigotry. ( that way you and your family can still be onthe GOOD side)
Maybe if you start talking to those people on your Blacklist, you can reduce it even more to A FEW or maybe even ONLY A FEW.
Kinda like Good VS Bad Round 3


My family are members of the Unitarian Universalists in Santa Rosa. The fact that UUs are not bigots is why we are members in the first place. There are few other denominations or religions that I'm aware of that are so progressive. For example, Quakers and Pagans are also very open minded people who are not bigots.

I think that most religious people look upon UUs as religious outcasts of sorts or renegades or perhaps even heretics.

Franklin

[Franklin Johnson]

I changed the thread title because of something that Sylph said in another thread.

Franklin



Well Franklin, It takes a MsTerry to temper your bigotry quest LOL,
As I sad before, you condemned each and every person including your family with this statement;


Religiosity is a source of bigotry, hatred, intolerance, and discrimination.

Congratulations, you were able to admit that you were wrong (partly of course, LOL) and reduced your statement to
SOME religion is bigotry. ( that way you and your family can still be onthe GOOD side)
Maybe if you start talking to those people on your Blacklist, you can reduce it even more to A FEW or maybe even ONLY A FEW.
Kinda like Good VS Bad Round 3

[MsTerry]

LMAO
You changed the thread title, not once but twice!
Maybe it is time for you to revise some more of your opinions..............
After all you can learn just as much from your "enemies" as from your friends.


I changed the thread title because of something that Sylph said in another thread.

Franklin

[Franklin Johnson]

Of course.

On another note, you have a lot to offer the community. But if you did it in a more civil, educated, and sound manner, everyone would benefit (yourself included) much, much more.

Take a critical look at yourself. I have. It's not easy though because it can be a very painful, emotional process and not everyone can do it. Gestalt psychologist Fritz Perls once said, 'To die and be reborn is not easy.'

I was advised by more than one Wacco subscriber (list members who stand out in the content of their posts) to ignore you completely because you are a troll. I chose to ignore their advice instead. Try thinking about that for a second.

All this said, I would like to read your opinion about the fact that the bible clearly and harshly condemns homosexuality (and women but that's a separate thread) and how is that NOT bigotry. I still have a good mind to change the thread title back to the original message.

Franklin



LMAO
You changed the thread title, not once but twice!
Maybe it is time for you to revise some more of your opinions..............
After all you can learn just as much from your "enemies" as from your friends.

[Sylph]

Maybe you could say "fundamentalist religion is bigotry" and it would be true most of the time. Jesus was all about love, but some Christians are like this lady:
https://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/im_not_one_of_those_love_thy

[MsTerry]

Take a critical look at yourself. I have. It's not easy though because it can be a very painful, emotional process and not everyone can do it. Gestalt psychologist Fritz Perls once said, 'To die and be reborn is not easy.'

Franklin
That is good news, FJ! And frankly (no pun intended) that was all I have been asking for. Your language and behavior was not helping your cause.


I was advised by more than one Wacco subscriber (list members who stand out in the content of their posts) to ignore you completely because you are a troll. .LOL. Do you really think I don't know that? Do you want me to tell you what their names are?LMAO
There are people that feel threatened by other people that shake their foundation. It is more comfortable to get a pat on the back than a mirror in your face.
Mediation expert Dana Curtis states; Better decisions are generally made when there is disagreement about what the decision should be among the people responsible for the decision.

I chose to ignore their advice instead. Try thinking about that for a second.Did you want applause because you can think for yourself?


All this said, I would like to read your opinion about the fact that the bible clearly and harshly condemns homosexuality (and women but that's a separate thread) and how is that NOT bigotry.
Now, How old is that text again? And what was the purpose of that statement at the time?


I still have a good mind to change the thread title back to the original message.You should!
Whatever that message may be!

[cidny]

Absolutely, it is yet another example of hate coming from the organizations of "love thy neighbor". I receive forwarded emails from an aged family member, he is a member of a church email list, the emails I receive are nothing but hate filled "save our families" propaganda. These emails are coming from the supposed Christians, they ask that everyone please forward to everyone you know. At first I was spending a couple hours a week disproving all the false crap that they spewed forward on my computer screen, but currently I am so sickened that I have just been deleting the messages. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Examples of the emails include: "Stop Gay Day in Our Schools" this was a hate filled email directing people to call the Governor to voice their opposition to AB 2567, which was a day designated for Harvey Milk. The problem was not that these people knew anything about Harvey Milk, nor had a position on what he did or didn't do for the people of this state; their opposition was based on absolute lies and fear mongering stating that it was going to require teachers teach about and encourage homosexuality in our schools. It was entirely inaccurate, and was regurgitated in the Yes on 8 campaign. By the way, the Governor vetoed this Bill.
The latest of these email showed a picture of the Hanukkah stamp being sold at the Post Office. The claims being made this last time were, "our post office won't allow Christian stamps but they allow this, don't they know who we're at war with?” I am sorry but if this type of stupid hate filled message is coming from so called "Christians" I must not understand what Christianity is about; I have never liked organized religion, it has always felt like a cult mentality, but it doesn't mean I don't agree with the basic concepts that all religions are built from, do no harm, love thy neighbor, do unto others. These are all great ideas, now if only the self proclaimed "good Christians" would actually do as they say maybe some of this judgemental and controlling behavior would come to an end.<o:p></o:p>

[babaruss]

I have never liked organized religion, it has always felt like a cult mentality, but it doesn't mean I don't agree with the basic concepts that all religions are built from, do no harm, love thy neighbor, do unto others. These are all great ideas, now if only the self proclaimed "good Christians" would actually do as they say maybe some of this judgemental and controlling behavior would come to an end.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>[/COLOR]

I have no problem at all with the basic teachings of Yesua bin Yusef aka
Jesus the Christ...his teachings are most excellent.
I do however have a terrible time where it comes to the majority of his so called followers.
The problem is that his teachings were meant as a guide to personal spritual growth.
The only time that teacher ever got angry was with a corrupt temple.
Wonder what he would have to say about our churches today.
Russ

[Franklin Johnson]

It's hard to see yourself objectively. It's especially harmful when one is defeating their own purpose. It can be an expensive lesson to learn. One can only hope that they did not do too much damage to what they had set out to accomplish.

I would love for you to tell me their names (if it's not uncouth, of course). I would not want you to 'out' someone if it is not appropriate.

Foundation shaking is a skill but most of the time people feel intruded upon and challenged in such a way that makes them angry, perhaps violent, especially when they did not ask for it.

Regarding the disagreement part, I generally agree. It's just that there are positions that are too absurd to be helpful sometimes. People can take some pretty messed up attitudes, such as taking other peoples' rights aways. Where is the productivity in that? That is, unless we take the view that the current dialog over gay marriage is positive because we are in the process of losing an old, intolerant status quo.

Regarding that retrograde book, the bible, how can anyone justify such a homophobic passage for any point in history or for any constructive purpose? Something is not good just because it is in the bible. People should call a spade a spade and be able to admit that a lot of stuff in that greatly overrated book is just junk, representative of a culture in an early stage of development.

I think a bible thread could be interesting if people participated.

Franklin



That is good news, FJ! And frankly (no pun intended) that was all I have been asking for. Your language and behavior was not helping your cause.

LOL. Do you really think I don't know that? Do you want me to tell you what their names are?LMAO
There are people that feel threatened by other people that shake their foundation. It is more comfortable to get a pat on the back than a mirror in your face.
Mediation expert Dana Curtis states; Better decisions are generally made when there is disagreement about what the decision should be among the people responsible for the decision.
Did you want applause because you can think for yourself?

Now, How old is that text again? And what was the purpose of that statement at the time?

You should!
Whatever that message may be!

[babaruss]

[quote=Franklin Johnson;75688]..................Regarding that retrograde book, the bible, how can anyone justify such a homophobic passage for any point in history or for any constructive purpose?]

When one examines the needs of that era..it's priorities, one quickly sees that homosexuality takes away from the need for serious reproductive activity. Many many children were wanted at that particular period of time. Women were pretty much treated like slaves, owned by their husbands, and children were less than slaves.....servants to serve at the will of their fathers.
Obviously homosexual relationships cut into the off spring productivity quota.
With the passage of time those early written rules/edicts/traditions aleged to be from God... were passed on to ensuing generations as truth...laws to live by.
Today, many thousands of years down the line, many are still insanely trying to apply the whole of that jumbled compilation of texts.... curiously named 'the holy bible'... to our lives.
This of course is madness...much of clinging to the past is madness.
But lest we in our zeal toss out the baby with the bath water should we not glean what we can from those assorted works... looking for what is good and useful for today's usage.
Just a thought
Russ

[MsTerry]

B
S
D
LOL




I would love for you to tell me their names (if it's not uncouth, of course). I would not want you to 'out' someone if it is not appropriate.
Franklin