richpro13
10-30-2008, 10:01 AM
do you believe that we are all victims of our own needs?
View Full Version : our needs
nurturetruth
10-30-2008, 01:57 PM
do you believe that we are all victims of our own needs?
interesting question, indeed! and great thread topic! :thumbsup:
I feel the desire, need and want to respond.
Regarding "victim consciousness".....
I tend to support the notion that all of our different "persona's' fall under one of 3 categories or "roles" : Victim, Villain or Hero.
(for instance, the "teacher" or "healer" would fall under the Hero category)
The more willing we are to observe, recognize and become aware of our persona's ... and to identify which 'role' we are "in", the easier things can be for us.
To be able to love ourselves for wherever we are "at" AND to be willing to be conscious and aware of what role we are "going into" or "playing out" can really serve us well. This helps to increase and bring awareness into our journey.
Regarding needs, we are human. We all have needs, wants , desires and fantasies.
Being able to recognize and distinguish what our needs are is one thing.
Being able to identify and meet our needs in a healthy way is another.
Pay attention to the feelings that come up when needs are either met or not met. Often times we attach ourselves to our needs either being met or not met and we overlook the emotions that go along with our needs.
Releasing attachment to outcome and letting go of the notion of expecting our needs to be met can't hurt either!
:heart:
p.s.. we either consciously or unconsciously "choose" to go into our "roles" and "persona's" . recognizing we have a choice is key.
interesting question, indeed! and great thread topic! :thumbsup:
I feel the desire, need and want to respond.
Regarding "victim consciousness".....
I tend to support the notion that all of our different "persona's' fall under one of 3 categories or "roles" : Victim, Villain or Hero.
(for instance, the "teacher" or "healer" would fall under the Hero category)
The more willing we are to observe, recognize and become aware of our persona's ... and to identify which 'role' we are "in", the easier things can be for us.
To be able to love ourselves for wherever we are "at" AND to be willing to be conscious and aware of what role we are "going into" or "playing out" can really serve us well. This helps to increase and bring awareness into our journey.
Regarding needs, we are human. We all have needs, wants , desires and fantasies.
Being able to recognize and distinguish what our needs are is one thing.
Being able to identify and meet our needs in a healthy way is another.
Pay attention to the feelings that come up when needs are either met or not met. Often times we attach ourselves to our needs either being met or not met and we overlook the emotions that go along with our needs.
Releasing attachment to outcome and letting go of the notion of expecting our needs to be met can't hurt either!
:heart:
p.s.. we either consciously or unconsciously "choose" to go into our "roles" and "persona's" . recognizing we have a choice is key.
alanora
10-31-2008, 09:16 AM
"needing" things to be other than they are is a recipe for suffering. Neutral observation is bliss?
do you believe that we are all victims of our own needs?
do you believe that we are all victims of our own needs?
richpro13
10-31-2008, 09:24 AM
"needing" things to be other than they are is a recipe for suffering. Neutral observation is bliss?
oh i see no expectations no dissapointment ...why bother
oh i see no expectations no dissapointment ...why bother
shellebelle
10-31-2008, 11:11 AM
I am not sure I understand this question.
" do you believe that we are all victims of our own needs?"
Please define "needs" and define "victim"
" do you believe that we are all victims of our own needs?"
Please define "needs" and define "victim"
Photoguy
10-31-2008, 11:20 AM
To empty yourself of expectations is a way to allow the universe to fill you with what you need.
oh i see no expectations no dissapointment ...why bother
oh i see no expectations no dissapointment ...why bother
MsTerry
10-31-2008, 11:51 AM
we are followers of our needs and potential victims of our wants
do you believe that we are all victims of our own needs?
do you believe that we are all victims of our own needs?
Braggi
10-31-2008, 11:57 AM
"needing" things to be other than they are is a recipe for suffering. Neutral observation is bliss?
If I'm bleeding profusely I "need" to stop the bleeding. That is a recipe to prevent suffering.
Neutral observation of one person abusing another isn't blissful.
Starving to death isn't blissful.
We have lots of needs. Is that really a problem?
Find your bliss by meeting your needs in healthy ways.
-Jeff
If I'm bleeding profusely I "need" to stop the bleeding. That is a recipe to prevent suffering.
Neutral observation of one person abusing another isn't blissful.
Starving to death isn't blissful.
We have lots of needs. Is that really a problem?
Find your bliss by meeting your needs in healthy ways.
-Jeff
alanora
11-01-2008, 08:41 AM
It is about soul growth rather than the desired emotional highs and lows, which may be present due to patterning by family of origin, habit. Neutral observation first, then determination of boundaries from that place, would yield more soul filled behavior(this is exploratory, by no means do I claim to have any answers)
oh i see no expectations no dissapointment ...why bother
oh i see no expectations no dissapointment ...why bother
Braggi
11-01-2008, 09:12 AM
It is about soul growth rather than the desired emotional highs and lows, which may be present due to patterning by family of origin, habit. ...
I think it is precisely those emotional highs and lows that lead to "soul growth." The paradox is that they also lead to soul wear and tear or soul aging. These are the marks of a life lived to its fullest. No amount of contemplation will substitute for experience.
... Neutral observation first, then determination of boundaries from that place, would yield more soul filled behavior(this is exploratory, by no means do I claim to have any answers)
Can you say more about this? I'm not sure I follow you.
-Jeff
I think it is precisely those emotional highs and lows that lead to "soul growth." The paradox is that they also lead to soul wear and tear or soul aging. These are the marks of a life lived to its fullest. No amount of contemplation will substitute for experience.
... Neutral observation first, then determination of boundaries from that place, would yield more soul filled behavior(this is exploratory, by no means do I claim to have any answers)
Can you say more about this? I'm not sure I follow you.
-Jeff
babaruss
11-01-2008, 10:28 PM
do you believe that we are all victims of our own needs?
Opperating in ignorance....or being unawake may be construed as victimization...but it's more likely (if we were asleep) that we are closer to being volunteers than victims of our own 'needs'.
Need nothing, need no one, appreciate what each day brings.
Clinging and demanding destroys all possibilty for freedom and happiness.
Then again, I'm getting old and calcified in my thinking...maybe I 'need' think about this a bit more.
Russ
Opperating in ignorance....or being unawake may be construed as victimization...but it's more likely (if we were asleep) that we are closer to being volunteers than victims of our own 'needs'.
Need nothing, need no one, appreciate what each day brings.
Clinging and demanding destroys all possibilty for freedom and happiness.
Then again, I'm getting old and calcified in my thinking...maybe I 'need' think about this a bit more.
Russ
nurturetruth
11-02-2008, 12:28 AM
Whoa !
I have a need!
Earlier I was aware of this need needing to be met. But then later pushed it back into my unconscious realm to brew.
I live in the now , so I nearly forgot
to set back my clock !
:wink:
I have a need!
Earlier I was aware of this need needing to be met. But then later pushed it back into my unconscious realm to brew.
I live in the now , so I nearly forgot
to set back my clock !
:wink:
CSummer
11-10-2008, 01:06 AM
It's taken me a while . . .
The question was: do you believe that we are all victims of our own needs?
I am not sure I understand this question.
" do you believe that we are all victims of our own needs?"
Please define "needs" and define "victim"
What comes to me, as I seek greater understanding:
There are two kinds of needs: real needs and pseudo-needs. Either kind of need is inner tension seeking to be resolved or energy that wants to move. There may be some feelings of discontent, discomfort or frustration associated with the need as an emotional energizing force.
Real needs fall roughly into four categories: physical (food, air, elimination, sex, etc.), psycho-emotional (safety, respect, acceptance, love, trust, etc.), learning-creative (to build a model of some aspect of the world within our minds or to realize something within us out in the world) and existential-spiritual (sense of connection to something larger than ourselves, making sense of existence, etc.).
Pseudo-needs tend to be physical or mental in nature and are learned, devised by the mind or otherwise acquired. Their primary function is to keep the attention away from the unmet real needs and their associated feelings, beliefs and perceptions and, in so doing, to keep these unresolved experiences buried or hidden well out of consciousness. These forms of self-distraction are many, including the widely recognized addictions - drugs and alcohol. Some of the more common activities that can be used as distractions - both modern and ancient - include TV, Internet, spiritual practices, religion, fast cars, guns, sex, sports, politics or activism. Our own minds can generate lots of distraction in the form of thoughts, feelings (including unpleasant ones) and dramatic fantasies (especially negative). Some fear-based religions are particularly good at supporting the mind in its efforts to distance our attention from our deeper truths. They foster the mind's own "I'm-not-okay" viewpoint and provide a way for us to become "okay" as well as the motivation (fear of damnation) to disown our "badness" (which is really the residue of our unresolved experiences).
By definition, all human behavior arises from some need. There are significant differences between real needs and pseudo-needs, both in how they manifest and in the effects of the behaviors they produce. Real needs tend to come from a more inclusive or holistic sense of what's true for us, so meeting these needs is more in harmony with our whole beings. Pseudo-needs are more narrowly focused, ignoring much of what is true for us, and hence their effects are more fragmented. Indeed, their primary function is to maintain the inner fragmentation, and this can result in discomfort and dis-ease, both physically and psychically. Meeting real needs moves us toward inner integration or wholeness, to truly resolving what is unresolved within us. In contrast, pseudo-needs tend to stunt our growth and keep us stuck where we are. They manifest in the world as societal dis-integration as well as dysfunctional relationships and families and may well be the true source of most all human suffering. It is this deep sense of powerlessness that leads us to give up our power and responsibility and to support destructive and disempowering economic and political systems.
To be a victim is to suffer with no apparent options for preventing or ending our suffering. It is perceiving ourselves as being subject to forces or conditions beyond our control. This is an effect of the sense of powerlessness that I believe is associated - that indeed permeates - all of our unresolved experiences: those experiences where our minds failed to perform their primary survival function successfully. That function is to enable us to get our real needs met, and when the mind fails, it shifts to a secondary survival function: to mask over those experiences of failure with their unpleasant - even debilitating - feelings, negative beliefs (typically that the need cannot be met), (mis)perceptions and sense of powerlessness. These experiences are not resolved, however, as long as they are outside our conscious awareness. They tend to stay as they were and are like wounds waiting to be healed, waiting for an environment in which the process of healing - of resolving these experiences by coming to a new perception and understanding of them - can move forward.
As long as these experiences - which may include parts or aspects of who are are - are hidden or buried outside of consciousness, we live in ignorance of what our true needs are and unaware of the negative beliefs we hold about those needs. Yet we may go through life unconsciously trying to get those needs met or seeking an environment in which those experiences can be resolved and the wounds healed. Typically, we fail because not only do the unmet needs influence our behavior; the unconscious negative beliefs also affect our choices and attitudes in self-defeating ways.
As a beloved friend expressed it so well: "We distract ourselves from our real needs being met because we already believe they cannot be met. In so doing, we rob ourselves of any chance of their possibly being met." The good news is that we can become conscious of all of our needs, though we may need help in doing so. And as we grow in self-awareness, acceptance, understanding, and compassion, we can begin to see the larger truth about what we feel and do and where our actions and attitudes arise from. We can drop our old limiting beliefs, outgrow our sense of powerlessness and move toward realizing our higher potentials - both as individuals and as a society of humans.
The question was: do you believe that we are all victims of our own needs?
I am not sure I understand this question.
" do you believe that we are all victims of our own needs?"
Please define "needs" and define "victim"
What comes to me, as I seek greater understanding:
There are two kinds of needs: real needs and pseudo-needs. Either kind of need is inner tension seeking to be resolved or energy that wants to move. There may be some feelings of discontent, discomfort or frustration associated with the need as an emotional energizing force.
Real needs fall roughly into four categories: physical (food, air, elimination, sex, etc.), psycho-emotional (safety, respect, acceptance, love, trust, etc.), learning-creative (to build a model of some aspect of the world within our minds or to realize something within us out in the world) and existential-spiritual (sense of connection to something larger than ourselves, making sense of existence, etc.).
Pseudo-needs tend to be physical or mental in nature and are learned, devised by the mind or otherwise acquired. Their primary function is to keep the attention away from the unmet real needs and their associated feelings, beliefs and perceptions and, in so doing, to keep these unresolved experiences buried or hidden well out of consciousness. These forms of self-distraction are many, including the widely recognized addictions - drugs and alcohol. Some of the more common activities that can be used as distractions - both modern and ancient - include TV, Internet, spiritual practices, religion, fast cars, guns, sex, sports, politics or activism. Our own minds can generate lots of distraction in the form of thoughts, feelings (including unpleasant ones) and dramatic fantasies (especially negative). Some fear-based religions are particularly good at supporting the mind in its efforts to distance our attention from our deeper truths. They foster the mind's own "I'm-not-okay" viewpoint and provide a way for us to become "okay" as well as the motivation (fear of damnation) to disown our "badness" (which is really the residue of our unresolved experiences).
By definition, all human behavior arises from some need. There are significant differences between real needs and pseudo-needs, both in how they manifest and in the effects of the behaviors they produce. Real needs tend to come from a more inclusive or holistic sense of what's true for us, so meeting these needs is more in harmony with our whole beings. Pseudo-needs are more narrowly focused, ignoring much of what is true for us, and hence their effects are more fragmented. Indeed, their primary function is to maintain the inner fragmentation, and this can result in discomfort and dis-ease, both physically and psychically. Meeting real needs moves us toward inner integration or wholeness, to truly resolving what is unresolved within us. In contrast, pseudo-needs tend to stunt our growth and keep us stuck where we are. They manifest in the world as societal dis-integration as well as dysfunctional relationships and families and may well be the true source of most all human suffering. It is this deep sense of powerlessness that leads us to give up our power and responsibility and to support destructive and disempowering economic and political systems.
To be a victim is to suffer with no apparent options for preventing or ending our suffering. It is perceiving ourselves as being subject to forces or conditions beyond our control. This is an effect of the sense of powerlessness that I believe is associated - that indeed permeates - all of our unresolved experiences: those experiences where our minds failed to perform their primary survival function successfully. That function is to enable us to get our real needs met, and when the mind fails, it shifts to a secondary survival function: to mask over those experiences of failure with their unpleasant - even debilitating - feelings, negative beliefs (typically that the need cannot be met), (mis)perceptions and sense of powerlessness. These experiences are not resolved, however, as long as they are outside our conscious awareness. They tend to stay as they were and are like wounds waiting to be healed, waiting for an environment in which the process of healing - of resolving these experiences by coming to a new perception and understanding of them - can move forward.
As long as these experiences - which may include parts or aspects of who are are - are hidden or buried outside of consciousness, we live in ignorance of what our true needs are and unaware of the negative beliefs we hold about those needs. Yet we may go through life unconsciously trying to get those needs met or seeking an environment in which those experiences can be resolved and the wounds healed. Typically, we fail because not only do the unmet needs influence our behavior; the unconscious negative beliefs also affect our choices and attitudes in self-defeating ways.
As a beloved friend expressed it so well: "We distract ourselves from our real needs being met because we already believe they cannot be met. In so doing, we rob ourselves of any chance of their possibly being met." The good news is that we can become conscious of all of our needs, though we may need help in doing so. And as we grow in self-awareness, acceptance, understanding, and compassion, we can begin to see the larger truth about what we feel and do and where our actions and attitudes arise from. We can drop our old limiting beliefs, outgrow our sense of powerlessness and move toward realizing our higher potentials - both as individuals and as a society of humans.
MsTerry
11-10-2008, 07:31 AM
Just curious why you categorize SEX as a real physical need along with food, air, elimination etc., as opposed to your psycho-emotional category or your pseudo-needs?
Has anybody ever died from not having SEX?
Do people automatically die if they don't have SEX, like with food, air, water, elimination etc.?
Does that mean people who don't have the ability to express themselves, like for example autistic or down syndrome kids, will die because they can't have SEX?
Curious minds want to know.
Real needs fall roughly into four categories: physical (food, air, elimination, sex, etc.), psycho-emotional (safety, respect, acceptance, love, trust, etc.), learning-creative (to build a model of some aspect of the world within our minds or to realize something within us out in the world) and existential-spiritual (sense of connection to something larger than ourselves, making sense of existence, etc.).
.
Has anybody ever died from not having SEX?
Do people automatically die if they don't have SEX, like with food, air, water, elimination etc.?
Does that mean people who don't have the ability to express themselves, like for example autistic or down syndrome kids, will die because they can't have SEX?
Curious minds want to know.
Real needs fall roughly into four categories: physical (food, air, elimination, sex, etc.), psycho-emotional (safety, respect, acceptance, love, trust, etc.), learning-creative (to build a model of some aspect of the world within our minds or to realize something within us out in the world) and existential-spiritual (sense of connection to something larger than ourselves, making sense of existence, etc.).
.
CSummer
11-12-2008, 12:25 AM
Just curious why you categorize SEX as a real physical need along with food, air, elimination etc., as opposed to your psycho-emotional category or your pseudo-needs?
Has anybody ever died from not having SEX?
Do people automatically die if they don't have SEX, like with food, air, water, elimination etc.?
Does that mean people who don't have the ability to express themselves, like for example autistic or down syndrome kids, will die because they can't have SEX?
Curious minds want to know.
I am grateful for curious minds! and for your having read what I wrote, MsTerry.
It is a very interesting question, because for me it brings up the question: what are "needs," really? It seems I know, yet there is something a bit mysterious about it. First, I'll answer your questions as simply and directly as I can.
I categorized sex as a physical need because it seems most directly connected with a physiological state of being and with species survival. Also, it is a behavior we share with many other life forms, most of which probably don't have the kinds of higher needs we have. It is true that no individual would die from not having sex, but if everyone abstained, the species would probably die out. A physical need is not, however, necessarily a survival need. For example, an itch that motivates me to scratch would be a physical need, but I would probably survive quite well if I didn't scratch. Sex may also be seen as survival-related as it can contribute greatly to life (especially being in a body) feeling more livable and so positively affect our longevity.
So what is a larger definition or description of a need that would help our understanding? Two things seem true: There is generally more than one way to meet any given true need, and any one action or activity can meet more than one need and can meet needs on more than one level. Sex, for example, can probably meet needs on all levels: in addition to the physiological urge and biological imperative, on the psycho-emotional level, it can meet needs for acceptance, connection and love; on the learning-creative level there may well be a need to try new things and see what enhances the experience; and on the spiritual-existential level, it may be possible to meet needs for a sense of connection that transcends the personal, to experience our oneness with all creatures and even with creation itself.
To live consciously, then, may be to live from a holistic awareness of what is true for us so that our acions arise from an intuitive synthesis of our needs - something that goes beyond imagining I have one need and one behavior that meets that need. There may be times that this is the case, e.g., if I'm very tired and the need is just to rest or sleep. When we see options not only for what we do but also how we do it and the attitude we bring to the activity, then there is the possibility of meeting needs on all levels.
When our actions are part of a pattern of addiction, though, they don't come from inclusive self-awareness, but are devised more for the opposite effect: keeping our attention either so narrowly focused or so diffuse and insensitive that all other needs (and feelings, etc.) are tuned out. The inner effects of such actions are unlikely to be deeply satisfying or to resolve anything that is unresolved within us.
"Right action," by contrast, arises from holistic self-awareness and its effects can be felt on many levels. The action itself does not indicate where it's coming from within us. I could be out working in the garden as a way to avoid dealing with some difficult relationship issue - or avoiding relationships altogether, or I could be there feeling a deep connection with the earth, excited and curious to discover how a new growing technique is working. My action could be either perpetuating inner disharmony and fragmentation and a feeling of victimhood, or it could be enhancing inner harmony and integration - building within me a sense of strength, confidence and personal power. I think it all depends on the degree of self-awareness and understanding the action arises from.
By the way, people with mild autism and even Downs syndrome probably could have sex. If not, it may be that their lives are shortened due to a lack of nurturing physical contact. Of course, this is true for many of us.
Has anybody ever died from not having SEX?
Do people automatically die if they don't have SEX, like with food, air, water, elimination etc.?
Does that mean people who don't have the ability to express themselves, like for example autistic or down syndrome kids, will die because they can't have SEX?
Curious minds want to know.
I am grateful for curious minds! and for your having read what I wrote, MsTerry.
It is a very interesting question, because for me it brings up the question: what are "needs," really? It seems I know, yet there is something a bit mysterious about it. First, I'll answer your questions as simply and directly as I can.
I categorized sex as a physical need because it seems most directly connected with a physiological state of being and with species survival. Also, it is a behavior we share with many other life forms, most of which probably don't have the kinds of higher needs we have. It is true that no individual would die from not having sex, but if everyone abstained, the species would probably die out. A physical need is not, however, necessarily a survival need. For example, an itch that motivates me to scratch would be a physical need, but I would probably survive quite well if I didn't scratch. Sex may also be seen as survival-related as it can contribute greatly to life (especially being in a body) feeling more livable and so positively affect our longevity.
So what is a larger definition or description of a need that would help our understanding? Two things seem true: There is generally more than one way to meet any given true need, and any one action or activity can meet more than one need and can meet needs on more than one level. Sex, for example, can probably meet needs on all levels: in addition to the physiological urge and biological imperative, on the psycho-emotional level, it can meet needs for acceptance, connection and love; on the learning-creative level there may well be a need to try new things and see what enhances the experience; and on the spiritual-existential level, it may be possible to meet needs for a sense of connection that transcends the personal, to experience our oneness with all creatures and even with creation itself.
To live consciously, then, may be to live from a holistic awareness of what is true for us so that our acions arise from an intuitive synthesis of our needs - something that goes beyond imagining I have one need and one behavior that meets that need. There may be times that this is the case, e.g., if I'm very tired and the need is just to rest or sleep. When we see options not only for what we do but also how we do it and the attitude we bring to the activity, then there is the possibility of meeting needs on all levels.
When our actions are part of a pattern of addiction, though, they don't come from inclusive self-awareness, but are devised more for the opposite effect: keeping our attention either so narrowly focused or so diffuse and insensitive that all other needs (and feelings, etc.) are tuned out. The inner effects of such actions are unlikely to be deeply satisfying or to resolve anything that is unresolved within us.
"Right action," by contrast, arises from holistic self-awareness and its effects can be felt on many levels. The action itself does not indicate where it's coming from within us. I could be out working in the garden as a way to avoid dealing with some difficult relationship issue - or avoiding relationships altogether, or I could be there feeling a deep connection with the earth, excited and curious to discover how a new growing technique is working. My action could be either perpetuating inner disharmony and fragmentation and a feeling of victimhood, or it could be enhancing inner harmony and integration - building within me a sense of strength, confidence and personal power. I think it all depends on the degree of self-awareness and understanding the action arises from.
By the way, people with mild autism and even Downs syndrome probably could have sex. If not, it may be that their lives are shortened due to a lack of nurturing physical contact. Of course, this is true for many of us.