I managed to exchange a few words with a man who delivered a "Yes on 8" ad to my door yesterday as he was running off to deliver more of his ads.
Since Christians seem to be the ones most offended by the idea that two men or two women can marry, I asked him whether Jesus ever said that marriage was between one man and one woman. He assured me Jesus had. Where?
I don't believe Jesus ever said that, but I left the Christian church decades ago. Can anyone cite chapter and verse in the gospels?
My belief is that Jesus was the friend of all good-hearted people, whether or not they followed the sexual mores of the time.
Let's encourage more love and support more families - Vote No on 8!
One must always be careful in declaring what Jesus would or would not do. He was a rabbi and as such he studied the Torah,(Old Testament more or less) which does specifically condemn homosexuality. Using religion to back an argument about human rights is a loser. Religion has effectively been used to support slavery, witch burning and mass murder to name a few. Religion and superstition are the enemy of clear thinking and human rights.
<code>https://www.venganza.org/images/fsmrof.png (https://www.venganza.org)</code>
MsTerry
10-29-2008, 07:36 PM
I am watching the movie 'Ghandi' with my kids, right now, and he seems to think otherwise.
But maybe you are declaring that Religion, all by itself is trying, to get rid of human rights? Kinda like the ten commandments are taking away your freedom to kill, steal and rape?
Religion and superstition are the enemy of clear thinking and human rights.
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Photoguy
10-29-2008, 07:56 PM
Hi Ms Terry, I figured we would meet eventually. That's a great, silly, observation, very funny. Have you considered a career in comedy? You seem to have confused religion with correct actions. Religion is a dogmatic set of rules to obey by which you prove your adherence to a social unit. Correct actions have NOTHING to do with religion. To understand that compassion and non violence is in everyone's best interest, including your own self interest, is not religious. It is just good thinking. Religion separates otherwise equally well meaning people of different backgrounds. :heart:
I am watching the movie 'Ghandi' with my kids, right now, and he seems to think otherwise.
But maybe you are declaring that Religion, all by itself is trying, to get rid of human rights? Kinda like the ten commandments are taking away your freedom to kill, steal and rape?
Braggi
10-29-2008, 08:02 PM
... To understand that compassion and non violence is in everyone's best interest, including your own self interest, is not religious. It is just good thinking. Religion separates otherwise equally well meaning people of different backgrounds. :heart:
Photoguy, you are describing dogmatic religions. There are religions that are less dogmatic and some who wouldn't recognize a dogma if it bit them. They tend to be Nature based as opposed to those that serve a deity that somehow exists outside of Nature.
-Jeff
Photoguy
10-29-2008, 08:15 PM
OK, I have backed myself into a semantic hole. I believe there is more than just dust when you die and yes I do believe there are many paths to the center of the wheel, or heaven, or whatever mental construct you prefer. I will try and be clear...Fundamental religions, of any kind, are what I am talking about. By "fundamental" I mean you believe that your path is the only path and all others are doomed. To be brutally honest I mean the "people of the book". The book is flawed, it was written by MAN. I am really just saying there is no them, it's all just us.
Photoguy, you are describing dogmatic religions. There are religions that are less dogmatic and some who wouldn't recognize a dogma if it bit them. They tend to be Nature based as opposed to those that serve a deity that somehow exists outside of Nature.
-Jeff
Braggi
10-29-2008, 09:31 PM
... I mean you believe that your path is the only path and all others are doomed. To be brutally honest I mean the "people of the book". The book is flawed ...
To add a little more honesty, there are plenty of Nature based religions that are dogmatic and exclusive. I tend to favor the ones that are less so.
-Jeff
Sara S
10-30-2008, 07:32 AM
Of all plagues with which mankind is cursed, ecclesiastic tyranny's the worst. -Daniel Defoe, novelist and journalist (1659?-1731)
One must always be careful in declaring what Jesus would or would not do. He was a rabbi and as such he studied the Torah,(Old Testament more or less) which does specifically condemn homosexuality. Using religion to back an argument about human rights is a loser. Religion has effectively been used to support slavery, witch burning and mass murder to name a few. Religion and superstition are the enemy of clear thinking and human rights.
<code>https://www.venganza.org/images/fsmrof.png (https://www.venganza.org)</code>
Neshamah
10-30-2008, 02:49 PM
The main argument from Hebrew Scripture is that Adam & Eve represent normal marriage and that alternatives are not possible. (This would seem to preclude the multiple wives of the Patriarchs, but it does not.) Laws given after chapter 11 do not apply to non-Jews, so unless you buy the rather flimsy argument based on Genesis 2, the Hebrew Bible does not condemn homosexuality among non-Jews. (The story of Sodom and Gomorrah, based on context, is about hospitality not sexuality.) The only other argument I can think of is that the first commandment is to be fruitful and multiply, and certainly, homosexuality makes this difficult, but this may only apply to heterosexuals. (Hopefully it does not apply to Catholic priests or nuns.)
To be thorough, the prohibitions of homosexual behavior among Jews appear twice in Leviticus and only mention male homosexuality. (The Talmud does briefly address female homesexual behavior, but does not treat it as a serious offense. In fact, priests who can only marry virgins are still allowed to marry women who have engaged in homosexual acts.) If homosexuality is physiological (which to the best of my knowledge it is) then the prohibitions against male homosexuality may only apply to heterosexual men.
Onward to Christianity. Christianity interprets Sodom and Gomorrah as a condemnation of homosexuality, but it can be read different ways. The gospels do talk about marriage, but they never mention homosexuality. Jesus may refer to marriage as between man and woman, but this does not automatically mean only one man and one woman. Of course, marriage at that time was understood that way, so certain conclusions cannot be drawn. If Jesus represents Divinity, then it doesn't really matter what Jesus the man thought anyway, since men are fallible.
In one of Paul's letters, Paul says that homosexual urges (mere urges, not actions,) are a sign of being somehow evil. I'm not Christian, so I've never bothered to come up for a good defense of that one. The Catholic Church does not interpret Paul's claim literally.
~ Neshamah
MsTerry
10-30-2008, 05:57 PM
Hi guy.
This is the official and most neutral description of the word Religion: Any system or institution which one engages with in order to foster a sense of meaning or relevance in relation to something greater than oneself.
Your biased (and dogmatic) interpretation of religion, show some hurt on your part but not objectivity.
Religion is a dogmatic set of rules to obey by which you prove your adherence to a social unit.
Correct actions have NOTHING to do with religion.Right actions are usually a result of following a strong conviction/religion.
What is right or correct is as always open to interpretation.
To understand that compassion and non violence is in everyone's best interest, including your own self interest, is not religious. It is just good thinking.Religion has played a consistent role in cultivating compassion.
Religion separates otherwise equally well meaning people of different backgroundsI think your statements are intended to separate you from otherwise well meaning people with different religious beliefs.
What you do is confuse religion with the interpretation of that religion by some zealots or simpletons.
Hi Ms Terry, I figured we would meet eventually. That's a great, silly, observation, very funny. Have you considered a career in comedy?
This is my career! Why do you think Barry keeps me on the payroll?