Incoming Hit Piece Against Rue Furch

[Eukaryote]

Incoming hit piece against Rue Furch

The bizarre "secret agent dossier" attack mailer from the Carrillo campaign apparently didn’t do the trick. Yesterday we were notified of an Independent Expenditure for a mailing against Rue with a cost of $20,000. So we decided to take the approach of tracking down the source.

The "group" behind it is called Citizens for Transportation Funding,
whatever that means. The real person behind it is a local attorney
named Robert Bone. In the spring Primary election, he maxed out his donations in support of Sharon Wright. Going back a little farther shows a pattern of endorsing Bosco candidates. But it gets worse.

For a real over-the-top misfit with the west county, Mr. Bone is a persistent supporter of James Inhofe, Republican Senator from Oklahoma. Mr. Inhofe was the Chair of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee. Inhofe is infamous for denying climate change and greenhouse gas impacts, calling it the "most media-hyped environmental issue of all time...", and called Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth" one of "slickest science propaganda films of all time",

A few other Inhofe items courtesy of Google and Wikipedia, the great "levelers" in access to information.

In a 2006 interview with the Tulsa World newspaper, Inhofe said regarding the environmentalist movement, "It kind of reminds... I could use the Third Reich, the Big Lie... You say something over and over and over and over again, and people will believe it, and that's their [the environmentalists'] strategy.

(Inhofe) had also made allegations that the Weather Channel is behind the alleged global warming hoax, so as to attract viewers. Inhofe had previously claimed that Global Warming is "the second-largest hoax ever played on the American people, after the separation of church and state.

Relative to the torture of prisoners at Abu Graib, Senator Inhofe commented, “.. he was more outraged by the outrage than by the treatment of the prisoners. After all, he said, they were probably guilty of something.”

He is also a supporter of a US Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marriage.

So that is the kind of candidate that Robert Bone wants in public office. Mr. Bone really wants to keep Jim Inhofe in the US Senate and spent lots of money to do it. And he really wants to keep Rue Furch off the Board of Supervisors and is spending a lot of someone's money to do that. Draw your own conclusions, both on the frontman for the hit piece and the reliability of the "facts" he presents.

And a notable local race that also drew the support of Mr. Bone is his maxing out his contributions in support of Mike Martini’s attempt to oust Lynn Woolsey in the primary of 2002. He was in interesting company, that included Mead Clark, Ross Liscum, Larry Wasem (Airport Boulevard Industrial Park), Standard Structures, Kimco Construction, Ghilotti Brothers, Christopherson Homes, Condiotti Homes, Pinnacle Homes and on and on...

So now Mr. Bone is dedicated to stopping Rue and electing Efren, in one 11th hour spasm.

So when the mail piece arrives, remember that the opposition has already shown they are prepared to say anything and do anything to stop Rue.

Remember they offer anonymous web sites, anonymous push polls, and all the rest.

Remember the benefactors of an Efren win are the same crowd that want Sharon Wright in, and wanted Lynn Woolsey out.

Elect Rue Furch for Fifth District Supervisor.

Scot Stegeman

[Zeno Swijtink]

And indeed, I would get worried if Dennis Hunter funded a hit piece against Carrillo, but he hasn't yet.

[Kinetic]

Mary...My mother taught me that if I have nothing nice to say, then say nothing at all.....................
That's also a piece of advice.

[Many Rivers]

Wow, this mailer just came to my mail box today, and I see what you mean. I'm really surprised; from what I'd seen of him at the candidate events, Efren seemed to be such a nice and reasonable guy, so it's very shocking that he'd resort to this kind of campaigning. I see that it came from "Friends of Efren," too, not some outside group, so that means that he must have approved of the message.
Too bad - I was sort of on the fence about who to vote for, but this has made up my mind for sure. I don't think we need to have his kind of angry and agressive voice on our Board of Supervisors.

[ywv]

I have done my homework, researched the candidates and read the election pamphlets from the state and county.
I know how I will vote on November 4th.

I put all political fliers at this point in the campaign directly in the garbage where they belong and do not watch TV ads.

Hate pieces do not deserve to be read!!!

Hate pieces do take away any respect I might have had for the person or organization sending it.

[Eukaryote]

I suppose we could start a thread of when a disclosure piece becomes a hit piece becomes worse. At the moment, anything stamped "confidential" on the cover is probably bad, but I have an immediate knee-jerk response to that, cant imagine why...

I actually like the system that the UK uses in elections. There is a fixed date before which you cannot start campaigning or collecting money. And best of all, I believe there is a "black out" period where all mailing/campaigning either stops or is greatly limited just before the vote. Dont know if it is a week, 10 days or more. But picture the silence... Which would certainly bring an end to the frenzy in the last 30 days. And it would greatly devalue the role of anonymous Independant Expenditure Committees. The ones that are in the open, whether unions or business, wouldnt be affected. But there would be time to root out who does the last minute hits from "Citizens Without Fingerprints that are oddly living out of a PO Box".

I wonder if such an approach would survive a free speech challenge? I know there are some types of free speech limitations allowed by higher court decisions where a defensible purpose is served, and it does not disproportionatly restrict one interest group over another. Any LWV members who could add details or ideas?

Scot

[Many Rivers]

"Picture the silence" if there was even a 10-day blackout on campaigning before the election. Oh, that would be heavenly. Won't happen, though. There's big money to be made in campaign advertising, especially late-campaign advertising. All those campaign consultants would have to face a cut in pay if there was an early blackout.

[Dynamique]

not necessarily... they would charge the same and be done with that phase of their contract a few days earlier.

One of the best comprehensive fixes for this electile dysfunction is publicly financed political campaigns. It does not directly address the independent expenditure committees, but it sure is a huge improvement.


"Picture the silence" if there was even a 10-day blackout on campaigning before the election. Oh, that would be heavenly. Won't happen, though. There's big money to be made in campaign advertising, especially late-campaign advertising. All those campaign consultants would have to face a cut in pay if there was an early blackout.

[Alysson Wonderland]

This mailer makes the point that because Rue Furch got a loan from a real estate developer, she is therefore a pawn of real estate developers in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Sonoma</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>. Let’s think about that assertion.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
It’s a fact that Rue got a loan from a developer, and that she refinanced that loan as soon as she discovered the identity of the lender. The question is what does that really mean? If it’s supposed to prove that Rue is under the influence of the big real estate developers of <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Sonoma</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>, there is a very good place to look for evidence of that influence, and that is her voting record after 16 years on the Sonoma County Planning Commission. I challenge anyone to find that Rue voted for a big developer and against the environment on any project that came before her on the Planning Commission. Her voting record is irrefutable proof that she is not in the pockets of big real estate development interests in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Sonoma</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>.
<o:p></o:p>
Contrast her record with the record of her opponent, the candidate who put out this hit-piece. If, as Efren implies, financial support is evidence of influence, where is the record that will reassure us that despite the tens of thousands of dollars in contributions flowing into his campaign from real-estate developers and other big business-advocacy groups, he will vote to preserve West County? He has no voting record at all that we can look at, and there, my friends, is the problem. Efren keeps saying that he “will listen,” but money talks, and when big money talks, that’s who Efren will listen to.

[Big Bob]

I repeat:

"Those of you bashing Furch and Carillo on this board are about as concious as a hurricane.
If you really want to show your conciousness, how about writing positive things about the candidate you support, and leave out the negativity?
Thanks!"

[OttoMeyer]

We support Efren Carrillo because we feel he has integrity and will work together with people to solve problems. Also we are retired and welcome seeing young people become part of the solution. We think he has a good understanding of what the needs are of many in our communities and has the courage and energy to move forward.

We don't like all the negative from either candidate. Thank you Big Bob for encouraging the positive.

[dandss1]

hummm let's see...Carillo is suported by businesses and Rue is supported by Unions...oh big shock! Isn't that the way it usually works??

The question you have to ask is whose values do you support?

Vote what you believe in and may the best person win!

Dave

[Alysson Wonderland]

OK, I have something positive to say about Rue Furch, and it’s something that retired people should definitely care about. Rue is endorsed by the Sonoma County Association of Retired Employees, as well as by the California Nurses’ Association, because of her understanding of the issues that older working people face, and the challenges that we will ALL face as we get older and have to deal with health and economic stresses.

[Alysson Wonderland]

By the way, I noticed that the public comment section of the website on Efren's hit piece mailer has disappeared. I had been checking out the comments, and had even posted one comment myself, but this morning when I looked, that part of the website had been taken down. I wonder if whoever is running that website took the comments down because most of the postings were pro-Rue?

[Barry]

I moved that thread to WaccoTalk. For the record, I support Rue.

I am trying to find a balance of providing visibility to this important discussion while not overwhelming people with it who are not interested.

Barry



By the way, I noticed that the public comment section of the website on Efren's hit piece mailer has disappeared. I had been checking out the comments, and had even posted one comment myself, but this morning when I looked, that part of the website had been taken down. I wonder if whoever is running that website took the comments down because most of the postings were pro-Rue?

[Geni Houston]

Scot Stegeman - would you please clarify what your investigation determined - did the piece come from Mr. Carillo or from Mr. Bone, and by that I mean both approved and/or paid for? Thanks.

[Alysson Wonderland]

Please forgive me for replying even though I'm not Scot; the mailer came from "Friends of Efren Carrillo," which means it came from his own campaign organization, and not any independent expenditure group. That means that Efren HIMSELF had to approve of the message. And THAT means it doesn't really matter who actually composed the piece; it expresses Efren's own views and opinions.

[Geni Houston]

Please forgive me for replying even though I'm not Scot; the mailer came from "Friends of Efren Carrillo," which means it came from his own campaign organization, and not any independent expenditure group. That means that Efren HIMSELF had to approve of the message. And THAT means it doesn't really matter who actually composed the piece; it expresses Efren's own views and opinions.

Not a problem - I just wanted to be clear on the outcome of a specific investigation and it was not to me. But I am probably just not savvy enough with politics to know that saying "Friends of...." could not possibly come from another source.

[wildflower]

PLEASE RECYCLE all your mailers...don't put them in LANDFILL!


I put all political fliers at this point in the campaign directly in the garbage.

[wildflower]

I sent their "hitmail" back to the address asking who they really were and why they are "hiding" behind the name...!!!(Citizens for Transportation Funding)
I plan on doing the same with the Carillo postcard I got from "Harry & Barb Sanders" I got their mailing address from the internet!
wf

The bizarre "secret agent dossier" attack mailer from the Carrillo campaign apparently didn’t do the trick. Yesterday we were notified of an Independent Expenditure for a mailing against Rue with a cost of $20,000. So we decided to take the approach of tracking down the source.

The "group" behind it is called Citizens for Transportation Funding,
whatever that means. The real person behind it is a local attorney
named Robert Bone. In the spring Primary election, he maxed out his donations in support of Sharon Wright. Going back a little farther shows a pattern of endorsing Bosco candidates. But it gets worse.

For a real over-the-top misfit with the west county, Mr. Bone is a persistent supporter of James Inhofe, Republican Senator from Oklahoma. Mr. Inhofe was the Chair of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee. Inhofe is infamous for denying climate change and greenhouse gas impacts, calling it the "most media-hyped environmental issue of all time...", and called Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth" one of "slickest science propaganda films of all time",

A few other Inhofe items courtesy of Google and Wikipedia, the great "levelers" in access to information.

In a 2006 interview with the Tulsa World newspaper, Inhofe said regarding the environmentalist movement, "It kind of reminds... I could use the Third Reich, the Big Lie... You say something over and over and over and over again, and people will believe it, and that's their [the environmentalists'] strategy.

(Inhofe) had also made allegations that the Weather Channel is behind the alleged global warming hoax, so as to attract viewers. Inhofe had previously claimed that Global Warming is "the second-largest hoax ever played on the American people, after the separation of church and state.

Relative to the torture of prisoners at Abu Graib, Senator Inhofe commented, “.. he was more outraged by the outrage than by the treatment of the prisoners. After all, he said, they were probably guilty of something.”

He is also a supporter of a US Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marriage.

So that is the kind of candidate that Robert Bone wants in public office. Mr. Bone really wants to keep Jim Inhofe in the US Senate and spent lots of money to do it. And he really wants to keep Rue Furch off the Board of Supervisors and is spending a lot of someone's money to do that. Draw your own conclusions, both on the frontman for the hit piece and the reliability of the "facts" he presents.

And a notable local race that also drew the support of Mr. Bone is his maxing out his contributions in support of Mike Martini’s attempt to oust Lynn Woolsey in the primary of 2002. He was in interesting company, that included Mead Clark, Ross Liscum, Larry Wasem (Airport Boulevard Industrial Park), Standard Structures, Kimco Construction, Ghilotti Brothers, Christopherson Homes, Condiotti Homes, Pinnacle Homes and on and on...

So now Mr. Bone is dedicated to stopping Rue and electing Efren, in one 11th hour spasm.

So when the mail piece arrives, remember that the opposition has already shown they are prepared to say anything and do anything to stop Rue.

Remember they offer anonymous web sites, anonymous push polls, and all the rest.

Remember the benefactors of an Efren win are the same crowd that want Sharon Wright in, and wanted Lynn Woolsey out.

Elect Rue Furch for Fifth District Supervisor.

Scot Stegeman[/quote]

[OttoMeyer]

If you want to read a couple good interviews of both Rue Furch and Efren Carrillo done by Sonoma West's Frank Robertson go to their online edition.
https://www.sonomawest.com/sonomawest/news/
Like Rollie and today's Press Democrat editorial say both camps are guilty of a "bunch of hogwash" with stories of each other. Both candidates are guilty for letting special interests misrepresent each of the other candidates without disavowing these tactics. Whoever wins there are negative feelings from the supporters of the other. Time for reconciliation and bringing people together. To many problems, we have to work together to solve them.

[Bbone]

Good News! The truth in the hands of voters works sometimes. It happens to have worked this time. My personal belief in this case turned out to be the same as many others'. The information about Ms. Furch's personal real estate decisions turned out to be important in this election. As for the "reliability of the facts" that were presented in the mail, your failure to address the facts was probably what rendered Ms. Furch incapable of winning this election. The facts were not in her favor on this matter.

[Zeno Swijtink]

Woow, Bob Bone, an underling in the Bosco empire (https://www.morelaw.com/lawyers/atty.asp?f=Robert&l=Bone&i=41581&z=95404), revived a October 2008 tread (Douglas Bosco, the congressman gaining headlines for speculating in real estate and was implicated in the savings and loan scandal (https://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE3DE1F3DF93BA35752C1A966958260) and in Rubbergate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_banking_scandal)).

What does that portend?



Good News! The truth in the hands of voters works sometimes. It happens to have worked this time. My personal belief in this case turned out to be the same as many others'. The information about Ms. Furch's personal real estate decisions turned out to be important in this election. As for the "reliability of the facts" that were presented in the mail, your failure to address the facts was probably what rendered Ms. Furch incapable of winning this election. The facts were not in her favor on this matter.

[Bbone]

I appreciate the irony of Prof. Swijtink's question. Drawing conclusions based on friendships, associations, and support can be an interesting morass. Dare we continue down this path? How much of your past are you willing to outline for the class?

[Zeno Swijtink]

I appreciate the irony of Prof. Swijtink's question. Drawing conclusions based on friendships, associations, and support can be an interesting morass. Dare we continue down this path? How much of your past are you willing to outline for the class?

Since Carillo has not said anything concrete about his policies, the morass of his friendships, associations, and supports is all West County is now left with, unfortunately.

Please explain who you are.

Zeno

[Zeno Swijtink]

Since Carillo has not said anything concrete about his policies, the morass of his friendships, associations, and supports is all West County is now left with, unfortunately.

Please explain who you are.

Zeno

Am happy that riverosprey is now a Currently Active User Viewing This Thread!

[Bbone]

I cannot answer that question in this limited a format. I could just as easily ask the same question of you. Why though? Why is this important to you? Go back to any of the pieces of mail that were sent and address the content of the mail. Review the mail critically and let me know if you find any of the content untruthful. Your political support for one candidate has drawn you to a position identical to that of the anti-Obama camp who sought to attack his character by screaming Ayers from the rooftops. Stop with the friendships, associations and support.

[Zeno Swijtink]

I cannot answer that question in this limited a format. I could just as easily ask the same question of you. Why though? Why is this important to you? Go back to any of the pieces of mail that were sent and address the content of the mail. Review the mail critically and let me know if you find any of the content untruthful. Your political support for one candidate has drawn you to a position identical to that of the anti-Obama camp who sought to attack his character by screaming Ayers from the rooftops. Stop with the friendships, associations and support.

Who are you?

[Bbone]

Who are you?

You already wrote my bio and attached a link to a web page to support your diligent conclusion. I'm also a graduate of the esteemed Philosophy department of SSU. A former student and tutor in formal logic for your colleague Prof. Bell. I coach baseball, soccer and I ski as often as I can. Your question is irrelevant professor.

[Beverly Schenck]

If only RUE was in office now, we might have someone with integrity, knowledge and compassion as our supervisor., now we have Carrillo the town clown. Send Carrillo back to the circus, their missing a clown. Beverly Schenck


Incoming hit piece against Rue Furch

The bizarre "secret agent dossier" attack mailer from the Carrillo campaign apparently didn’t do the trick. Yesterday we were notified of an Independent Expenditure for a mailing against Rue with a cost of $20,000. So we decided to take the approach of tracking down the source.

The "group" behind it is called Citizens for Transportation Funding,
whatever that means. The real person behind it is a local attorney
named Robert Bone. In the spring Primary election, he maxed out his donations in support of Sharon Wright. Going back a little farther shows a pattern of endorsing Bosco candidates. But it gets worse.

For a real over-the-top misfit with the west county, Mr. Bone is a persistent supporter of James Inhofe, Republican Senator from Oklahoma. Mr. Inhofe was the Chair of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee. Inhofe is infamous for denying climate change and greenhouse gas impacts, calling it the "most media-hyped environmental issue of all time...", and called Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth" one of "slickest science propaganda films of all time",

A few other Inhofe items courtesy of Google and Wikipedia, the great "levelers" in access to information.

In a 2006 interview with the Tulsa World newspaper, Inhofe said regarding the environmentalist movement, "It kind of reminds... I could use the Third Reich, the Big Lie... You say something over and over and over and over again, and people will believe it, and that's their [the environmentalists'] strategy.

(Inhofe) had also made allegations that the Weather Channel is behind the alleged global warming hoax, so as to attract viewers. Inhofe had previously claimed that Global Warming is "the second-largest hoax ever played on the American people, after the separation of church and state.

Relative to the torture of prisoners at Abu Graib, Senator Inhofe commented, “.. he was more outraged by the outrage than by the treatment of the prisoners. After all, he said, they were probably guilty of something.”

He is also a supporter of a US Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marriage.

So that is the kind of candidate that Robert Bone wants in public office. Mr. Bone really wants to keep Jim Inhofe in the US Senate and spent lots of money to do it. And he really wants to keep Rue Furch off the Board of Supervisors and is spending a lot of someone's money to do that. Draw your own conclusions, both on the frontman for the hit piece and the reliability of the "facts" he presents.

And a notable local race that also drew the support of Mr. Bone is his maxing out his contributions in support of Mike Martini’s attempt to oust Lynn Woolsey in the primary of 2002. He was in interesting company, that included Mead Clark, Ross Liscum, Larry Wasem (Airport Boulevard Industrial Park), Standard Structures, Kimco Construction, Ghilotti Brothers, Christopherson Homes, Condiotti Homes, Pinnacle Homes and on and on...

So now Mr. Bone is dedicated to stopping Rue and electing Efren, in one 11th hour spasm.

So when the mail piece arrives, remember that the opposition has already shown they are prepared to say anything and do anything to stop Rue.

Remember they offer anonymous web sites, anonymous push polls, and all the rest.

Remember the benefactors of an Efren win are the same crowd that want Sharon Wright in, and wanted Lynn Woolsey out.

Elect Rue Furch for Fifth District Supervisor.

Scot Stegeman

[soulange]

is rue even running? i thought it was carrillo, carpenter and jacobi.




Incoming hit piece against Rue Furch

The bizarre "secret agent dossier" attack mailer from the Carrillo campaign apparently didn’t do the trick. Yesterday we were notified of an Independent Expenditure for a mailing against Rue with a cost of $20,000. So we decided to take the approach of tracking down the source.

The "group" behind it is called Citizens for Transportation Funding,
whatever that means. The real person behind it is a local attorney
named Robert Bone. In the spring Primary election, he maxed out his donations in support of Sharon Wright. Going back a little farther shows a pattern of endorsing Bosco candidates. But it gets worse.

For a real over-the-top misfit with the west county, Mr. Bone is a persistent supporter of James Inhofe, Republican Senator from Oklahoma. Mr. Inhofe was the Chair of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee. Inhofe is infamous for denying climate change and greenhouse gas impacts, calling it the "most media-hyped environmental issue of all time...", and called Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth" one of "slickest science propaganda films of all time",

A few other Inhofe items courtesy of Google and Wikipedia, the great "levelers" in access to information.

In a 2006 interview with the Tulsa World newspaper, Inhofe said regarding the environmentalist movement, "It kind of reminds... I could use the Third Reich, the Big Lie... You say something over and over and over and over again, and people will believe it, and that's their [the environmentalists'] strategy.

(Inhofe) had also made allegations that the Weather Channel is behind the alleged global warming hoax, so as to attract viewers. Inhofe had previously claimed that Global Warming is "the second-largest hoax ever played on the American people, after the separation of church and state.

Relative to the torture of prisoners at Abu Graib, Senator Inhofe commented, “.. he was more outraged by the outrage than by the treatment of the prisoners. After all, he said, they were probably guilty of something.”

He is also a supporter of a US Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marriage.

So that is the kind of candidate that Robert Bone wants in public office. Mr. Bone really wants to keep Jim Inhofe in the US Senate and spent lots of money to do it. And he really wants to keep Rue Furch off the Board of Supervisors and is spending a lot of someone's money to do that. Draw your own conclusions, both on the frontman for the hit piece and the reliability of the "facts" he presents.

And a notable local race that also drew the support of Mr. Bone is his maxing out his contributions in support of Mike Martini’s attempt to oust Lynn Woolsey in the primary of 2002. He was in interesting company, that included Mead Clark, Ross Liscum, Larry Wasem (Airport Boulevard Industrial Park), Standard Structures, Kimco Construction, Ghilotti Brothers, Christopherson Homes, Condiotti Homes, Pinnacle Homes and on and on...

So now Mr. Bone is dedicated to stopping Rue and electing Efren, in one 11th hour spasm.

So when the mail piece arrives, remember that the opposition has already shown they are prepared to say anything and do anything to stop Rue.

Remember they offer anonymous web sites, anonymous push polls, and all the rest.

Remember the benefactors of an Efren win are the same crowd that want Sharon Wright in, and wanted Lynn Woolsey out.

Elect Rue Furch for Fifth District Supervisor.

Scot Stegeman

[sambacat]

Did I miss something? Is Rue running for Supervisor??

[Imagery]

Did I miss something? Is Rue running for Supervisor??

No, but Veronica Jacobi and Ernie Carpenter are running to ensure that Efren"F*** the Environment" Carrillo is simply a one-term mistake. Hopefully, this time, the election can't be bought and paid for by big business, who will then own Efren and his loyalty.

His (private) advertising:

Vote for sale to the highest bidder.

["Mad" Miles]

Beverly revived an old thread. It pays to check the dates.

Addendum:

This is just a statement of fact. In response to the queries about whether Rue Furch is running in the upcoming primary, or not.

There is no editorial or political judgement implied or intended. Just a process point about old thread renewal. No other message. That's it. I have no bias for or against renewing old threads.

My bias is for clear and accessible communication. That's it, no other editorial or political judgement is implied or intended.

Capisce?

[Beverly Schenck]

Pays to check the date, old story same outcome, date or no current date our public figures are corrupt. "follow the money"



Beverly revived an old thread. It pays to check the dates.