Sebastopol Police Abuse of Power [Archive]

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Ally

09-16-2008, 11:45 AM

This morning on my way to take my kid to school, a Sebastopol motorcycle cop pulled me over for no good reason. Well, apparently his reason was the choice and volume of my music. Yep, that’s right, my music.

There’s a little bit of tradition we’ve got where on the way to middle school, our 8th grader gets to choose the music she wants to listen to, and then we turn it up loud…loud enough that when she climbs out of the car at school you can hear the music playing – it’s like her greeting for the morning – “hey guys, I’m here”.

This morning we both chose TOOL, and it was loud enough that when she climbed out of my car, you could hear it. Now, that being said, as soon as I drop her off the music comes down and I pull away and slip back into the dull gleam of the suburban mornings.

I have the consideration and respect to appreciate quiet mornings taking the kids to school and the fact that uber loud music may put people off while they’re in that particular space and that is why the loudness doesn’t last long. With reference to those sentiments, I would have responded kindlier to a request from the cop to just keep the music down a bit next time. That is NOT what transpired however. What happened next was a complete misuse, or rather ABUSE of power on his part.

He proceeded with a direct and cutting assault of my character and personal integrity.

I didn’t catch his name, though the similarity in his appearance to an SS Guard makes him unforgettable. He came up to my window and asked me why I thought it was appropriate to be playing “that kind of music so loud”. (Notice the reference to the type of music, not necessarily the volume.)
I explained that it was just something that my step-daughter and I do in the mornings on the way to school, to which he responded:
“So you just let your kid dictate what you do, you let her make your decisions?”

“Well, no officer, she doesn’t make decisions for me, nor does she dictate any action that is mine. It is simply something she enjoys, to which I give her the liberty while she’s in my car.”

“And what type of example are you setting when you pull up playing that music? What do you want the other children to THINK when they see you – an ADULT – behaving in such a manner? You are supposed to be setting the examples, not letting your kid dictate what you do. I hope you don’t have any other kids!”

Ok, so that’s where he lost me. “I hope you don’t have any other kids”? Are you serious! What kind of example am I setting by playing “that” kind of music – what KIND of music? Rock? Would he have pulled me over if I had been playing Barry Manilow, or Mozart? I don’t think he would have. He may not have even asked me to turn that stuff down. He heard my music and immediately put me in some delinquent category. Then, without provocation or any reference to civil codes, he asked for my license, not my registration.
“When was the last ticket you had?”
(He automatically presumes that I have priors, and when he finds that I do, he uses that to build his case for the defamation of my character.

“I got a speeding ticket in January.”

Then he takes my license and calls for my information over his little radio, and then saunters back to my car.
“You have 2 tickets!...”

“Um, yes I do have 2 tickets...and…”

“And, it makes sense.”

Excuse me. It makes sense?...
It was like he was using my prior tickets as proof that I am a bad person. Because I have been pulled over before and because I listen to loud rock music, I am immediately lacking integrity. So much so, that apparently he felt it necessary to implore me to not have any more children! (Oh my, what would he think if he found I have a 4 year old who likes LED ZEPPELIN!!!) I mean, come on – give me a break!

As far as examples I am setting for my children:

We are all INDEPENDENT THINKERS. We are each responsible for our own actions and choices. I model to my kids respect and consideration for others, and the importance of extending those aspects of self to the world. I model the ability to decide for myself what I do, where I go and who I am. We are not puppets, sleepers walking, busy-bees inhabiting each other’s dreams. We don’t bow down under the oppressive weight of shoulds and supposed-to’s. We rise and we strive, we are our own people and we support each other.

For me to be pulled over when I did NOTHING wrong, because some cop didn’t like my music, is absolutely absurd! And I want people to know about this, to be aware of the possibility that it might not even have anything to do US. It’s a good thing I have white skin and that I drive a nice car, or I’d have been racially and economically profiled. I didn’t do anything wrong, and he knew that. He was trying to provoke me into negative response, and I didn’t take the bait. He couldn’t cite me for ANYTHING because I didn’t allow him to manipulate me. If I’m getting pulled over on the whim of some cop on a power trip, there’s something wrong. To sit and face character assault, to listen while someone questions your moral capacity just because they’re wearing a uniform and they believe they can, is a complete injustice.

He finally gave me back my license and sent me on my way, but not without one more parting shot:
“I’m around this neighborhood a lot…You have a good, safe day ma’am.”

“Yes sir.”

photolite

09-16-2008, 05:53 PM

Ally, I believe you should contact the Chief of Police who from my experience is a pretty good guy. I've known a couple of the local neighborhood cops and they've been pretty nice guys too. They could identify this individual by time and place and I expect they'd want to know about intimidating behaviors.
Photo

This morning on my way to take my kid to school, a Sebastopol motorcycle cop pulled me over for no good reason. Well, apparently his reason was the choice and volume of my music. Yep, that’s right, my music.

There’s a little bit of tradition we’ve got where on the way to middle school, our 8th grader gets to choose the music she wants to listen to, and then we turn it up loud…loud enough that when she climbs out of the car at school you can hear the music playing – it’s like her greeting for the morning – “hey guys, I’m here”.

This morning we both chose TOOL, and it was loud enough that when she climbed out of my car, you could hear it. Now, that being said, as soon as I drop her off the music comes down and I pull away and slip back into the dull gleam of the suburban mornings.

I have the consideration and respect to appreciate quiet mornings taking the kids to school and the fact that uber loud music may put people off while they’re in that particular space and that is why the loudness doesn’t last long. With reference to those sentiments, I would have responded kindlier to a request from the cop to just keep the music down a bit next time. That is NOT what transpired however. What happened next was a complete misuse, or rather ABUSE of power on his part.

He proceeded with a direct and cutting assault of my character and personal integrity.

I didn’t catch his name, though the similarity in his appearance to an SS Guard makes him unforgettable. He came up to my window and asked me why I thought it was appropriate to be playing “that kind of music so loud”. (Notice the reference to the type of music, not necessarily the volume.)
I explained that it was just something that my step-daughter and I do in the mornings on the way to school, to which he responded:
“So you just let your kid dictate what you do, you let her make your decisions?”

“Well, no officer, she doesn’t make decisions for me, nor does she dictate any action that is mine. It is simply something she enjoys, to which I give her the liberty while she’s in my car.”

“And what type of example are you setting when you pull up playing that music? What do you want the other children to THINK when they see you – an ADULT – behaving in such a manner? You are supposed to be setting the examples, not letting your kid dictate what you do. I hope you don’t have any other kids!”

Ok, so that’s where he lost me. “I hope you don’t have any other kids”? Are you serious! What kind of example am I setting by playing “that” kind of music – what KIND of music? Rock? Would he have pulled me over if I had been playing Barry Manilow, or Mozart? I don’t think he would have. He may not have even asked me to turn that stuff down. He heard my music and immediately put me in some delinquent category. Then, without provocation or any reference to civil codes, he asked for my license, not my registration.
“When was the last ticket you had?”
(He automatically presumes that I have priors, and when he finds that I do, he uses that to build his case for the defamation of my character.

“I got a speeding ticket in January.”

Then he takes my license and calls for my information over his little radio, and then saunters back to my car.
“You have 2 tickets!...”

“Um, yes I do have 2 tickets...and…”

“And, it makes sense.”

Excuse me. It makes sense?...
It was like he was using my prior tickets as proof that I am a bad person. Because I have been pulled over before and because I listen to loud rock music, I am immediately lacking integrity. So much so, that apparently he felt it necessary to implore me to not have any more children! (Oh my, what would he think if he found I have a 4 year old who likes LED ZEPPELIN!!!) I mean, come on – give me a break!

As far as examples I am setting for my children:

We are all INDEPENDENT THINKERS. We are each responsible for our own actions and choices. I model to my kids respect and consideration for others, and the importance of extending those aspects of self to the world. I model the ability to decide for myself what I do, where I go and who I am. We are not puppets, sleepers walking, busy-bees inhabiting each other’s dreams. We don’t bow down under the oppressive weight of shoulds and supposed-to’s. We rise and we strive, we are our own people and we support each other.

For me to be pulled over when I did NOTHING wrong, because some cop didn’t like my music, is absolutely absurd! And I want people to know about this, to be aware of the possibility that it might not even have anything to do US. It’s a good thing I have white skin and If I’m getting pulled over on the whim of some cop on a power trip, there’s something wrong.that I drive a nice car, or I’d have been racially and economically profiled. I didn’t do anything wrong, and he knew that. He was trying to provoke me into negative response, and I didn’t take the bait. He couldn’t cite me for ANYTHING because I didn’t allow him to manipulate me. To sit and face character assault, to listen while someone questions your moral capacity just because they’re wearing a uniform and they believe they can, is a complete injustice.

He finally gave me back my license and sent me on my way, but not without one more parting shot:
“I’m around this neighborhood a lot…You have a good, safe day ma’am.”

“Yes sir.”

Sylph

09-16-2008, 06:19 PM

dandss1

09-16-2008, 08:11 PM

This sounds like the same motorcycle cop my family calls Barney Fife. Dresses like a Nazi SS guy. Arrogant to the max. This cop cited me for running a stop sign on Pleasant Hill and Covert Lane, even though I was stopped and waited for a car to cross the intersection before I turned. I pulled forward to turn on to Pleasant Hill and saw him sitting by the bushes so far from the intersection that he could not see if cars were stopped or not. He was looking at the instrument panel on his bike, then looked up and when we made eye contact here he came. Said I ran the stop sign, which I did not. Everything I said was treated with a sarcastic response and not wanting to get abused by this power freak I stopped talking to the guy and took the ticket. I did point out that the bushes hindered his ability to see the line crossing the road or the stop sign and I noticed a few days later, a crew cutting the bushes back.

Less than a week passed and my son took the car to the Ace Hardware. When he came out there was Barney Fife by his motorcycle standing behind our car. My son asked him what the problem was, and the cop asked who the car belonged to. My son said it was his dads car and the cop said the tail light is broken (there was a quarter inch hole in it) and you tell him that I told you to get it fixed, and then he got back on the motorcycle and left. My son said his tone was very billigerent. I had to wonder if he wasn't targeting my vehicle.

Sebastopol has a problem here. This guy is way out of line and is on a power trip. Cops like this are a danger to the community. They do not respect the communty, they only respect power and the ways they can use it against you. If confronted by his superiors he will deny this abuse of authority. His job is to enforce the law, not to interpret the law, not to offer his personal and warped opinions. If I were the lady who had the music problem I would recommend getting a tape recorder or video camera and have it handy. You don't have to video tape him, just let the audio pick up what he is saying. Unfortunately, I suspect that you will have another run in with this same guy.

To bad that Sebastopol has to stoop to hiring this kind of individual.

MsTerry

09-16-2008, 09:05 PM

His job is to enforce the law, not to interpret the law,

Playing music too loud in your car is against the law.
Driving around with a broken tail light is against the law too.

dandss1

09-17-2008, 08:30 PM

Playing music too loud in your car is against the law.
Driving around with a broken tail light is against the law too.

Ohhhhh I am such a criminal! Shame on me!

Still does not justify this guys attitude, nor the remarks he made to the first poster, nor the remarks he made to me. The guy comes across as an arrogant bully with a badge. Simple as that.

ladybug5

09-18-2008, 10:36 AM

I am really amused at how entitled we feel to belittle the
police in our community who have done such a incredible job. We have low crime compared to most of California,
very little gang activity and a really safe community. So he was in a bad mood and didn't treat you with the respect you would have liked and obviously deserve. Get over it.

Abuse of power is not being arrogant. He didn't strip search you because you look like a gang member.. He didnt throw your skinny butt in jail. He didn't taser you?

Personally, I appreciate the vigilance of keeping loud
base music down. I hate to go into certain Santa Rosa
neighborhoods for that reason. I live close to town and
cringe when I hear the loud base music....

I'd be in a bad mood too, if I had to deal all day with people who felt like they should be treated with kid gloves... So get your tail light fixed and show some respect to people who live in the neighborhood by turning down your speakers.

And to all the others that are insulted by this " abuse of power" , Try walking a day in their shoes and then get back to me.

Malene

09-18-2008, 10:50 AM

Hey Ally,

I too think you should make a report about it. The more reports this dude gets in his file, the better a chance he will get his butt canned.

And to Ladybug - the police are there ostencibly to "protect and to serve", not to bully and intimidate.

We have a right to expect to be treated with respect at all times. It doesnt matter what kind of mood the cop is in - if he cant treat us with respect, then he cant do his job and need to look for another one.

The police are ethically obligated to treat even criminals with respect.

Yes - as a private reasonably law abiding citizen I expect to be treated with kindness and respect by the civil servants my taxes pay for. I see no reason why not.

It seems to me the more complaints this abusive cop has on his record the faster he will have to move in to a job that better suits his personality - maybe sitting alone in a server farm, so all he can is try to intimidate computers might work really well for him.

Malene

Ally

09-18-2008, 10:51 AM

Playing music too loud in your car is against the law.
Driving around with a broken tail light is against the law too.

Well thank you MsTerry... Where would we be without you and your literal dosing on devil's advocacy? If you could, please pay a little closer attention to the real issues...

In as much as this is about the absurdity of pulling someone over for loud music, it is more about the way this cop conducted himself. He was completely inappropriate in the manner in which he spoke to me, in his assassination of my personal integrity, and whether or not he had due cause (based on civil codes??) to pull me over, his treatment of me was abusive.

He is a poor representation of the Sebastopol Police Department, and I'd even go so far as to say he is a hazard to his organization.

shellebelle

09-18-2008, 10:53 AM

I agree.

I grew up with police officers and not by choice by grace.

I was the kid on the playground who sat and played while the local teen boy sat close by. Then watched the local cops pulling up and the man in the bushes being arrested. Meanwhile my "friend officers" sat in the distance calling in the man in the bushes. This was a reality for me for a number of years on going. I was allowed to play and be safe while diligently watched and protected by cops.

I am still the girl who gets followed home from Sebastopol first by Sebastopol police, then by CHP. I feel blessed by their diligence.

I feel blessed that I can walk around Sebastopol and not be in any fear. I feel blessed that I can drive and feel safe. I am safe, I am secure, I am blessed by their presence. I am blessed that I can live a life of "luxury" thanks to their willingness to put their lives on the line every day.

I am really amused at how entitled we feel to belittle the
police in our community who have done such a incredible job. We have low crime compared to most of California,
very little gang activity and a really safe community. So he was in a bad mood and didn't treat you with the respect you would have liked and obviously deserve. Get over it.

Abuse of power is not being arrogant. He didn't strip search you because you look like a gang member.. He didnt throw your skinny butt in jail. He didn't taser you?

Personally, I appreciate the vigilance of keeping loud
base music down. I hate to go into certain Santa Rosa
neighborhoods for that reason. I live close to town and
cringe when I hear the loud base music....

I'd be in a bad mood too, if I had to deal all day with people who felt like they should be treated with kid gloves... So get your tail light fixed and show some respect to people who live in the neighborhood by turning down your speakers.

And to all the others that are insulted by this " abuse of power" , Try walking a day in their shoes and then get back to me.

shellebelle

09-18-2008, 10:59 AM

I appreciate your points and your view but I have yet to hear you appreciate the rest of the police officers who do their jobs well. There is often one bad day or one bad employee it happens no matter the business.

On the other hand courtesy is always nice and appreciated.

I am feeling that placing it on Wacco is NOT a better option to using appropriate channels. It feels much like slamming the police department of Sebastopol. And I am feeling that it is not necessarily the best example to set for anyone. If you are willing to take the time and energy to "report" it here then I agree you should invest at least that much time and energy in using the appropriate channels to "report" it to those who can make a change for the better.

I have a theory spend time in appreciation for the good and the lessers will find their own way out of your life space.

Well thank you MsTerry... Where would we be without you and your literal dosing on devil's advocacy? If you could, please pay a little closer attention to the real issues...

In as much as this is about the absurdity of pulling someone over for loud music, it is more about the way this cop conducted himself. He was completely inappropriate in the manner in which he spoke to me, in his assassination of my personal integrity, and whether or not he had due cause (based on civil codes??) to pull me over, his treatment of me was abusive.

He is a poor representation of the Sebastopol Police Department, and I'd even go so far as to say he is a hazard to his organization.

Malene

09-18-2008, 11:55 AM

Hello Ladybug,

As I continued surfing wacco this post really stuck in my craw.

First of all I did not see the original post as belittling all police officers. It told of one officer who acted unprofessionally.

I think a post like this (together with reporting the incident to the police) as serving a purpose. In this case it might be that this cop has mistreated others, and if they start to compare notes and then each individual reports the bad behavior by the cop it can really have an impact.

As to having a bad day. I remember as a kid talking to my dad about a couple of teachers who really didnt do a good job. Of course we all know how next to impossible it is to get teachers fired. He suggested that I document the bad work of those specific teachers. Now that I look back, I think that was of course a great suggestion. I remember the shock waves going through the teaching community though - they were held to standards that most people are held to and they were in shock.

Here is the thing - if someone has a job in the private sector and that person has a lot of "bad days" that impact their performance - guess what. Yes - we all know it. Bye Bye!

For me it is even more extreme - I rarely get a second chance with a client. I screw up, I lose the business. Its simple that way.

I would quickly be out of business if I had bad days all over the place with my customers.

How does this relate to the cop in question? Well - he does not have a right to mistreat one single citizen. Not once, not ever. He is given power so that there will be quite a bit of room for mistreatment, and the first time he misuses that power he is in the wrong.

Now -we all know it is as hard to get rid of public servants as it is to get rid of bad teachers. They are given a lot of room to have bad days.

So when a report like this is posted - and someone says "yes, that person has been rude to me as well", then that cop has misused the power given to him more than once.

I think the cop should be held to the same standards as other people. Maybe they should even be held to higher standards - given how much power they are given.

This means if a cop has bad days all over the place then it is only reasonable to expect him to lose his business.

As far as entitlement goes - I absolutely feel entitled to be treated with respect at all times.

I feel entitled to say out loud "thats not ok", when someone doesnt treat me with respect. I feel entitled to use whatever vehicle I prefer to use to express myself when I say "thats not ok".

I feel entitled to expect that the police that my tax money pays for stays professional. Should any of them come to me for a massage I expect they feel entitled to me being professional and good at what I do.

I just hold them to the same standards.

Malene

I am really amused at how entitled we feel to belittle the
police in our community who have done such a incredible job. We have low crime compared to most of California,
very little gang activity and a really safe community. So he was in a bad mood and didn't treat you with the respect you would have liked and obviously deserve. Get over it.

Abuse of power is not being arrogant. He didn't strip search you because you look like a gang member.. He didnt throw your skinny butt in jail. He didn't taser you?

Personally, I appreciate the vigilance of keeping loud
base music down. I hate to go into certain Santa Rosa
neighborhoods for that reason. I live close to town and
cringe when I hear the loud base music....

I'd be in a bad mood too, if I had to deal all day with people who felt like they should be treated with kid gloves... So get your tail light fixed and show some respect to people who live in the neighborhood by turning down your speakers.

And to all the others that are insulted by this " abuse of power" , Try walking a day in their shoes and then get back to me.

MsTerry

09-18-2008, 12:14 PM

Hi Ally,
Thanks for your attempt at belittling me :thumbsup:
I like it how you think that YOUR feelings are REAL issues and the fact that you are setting a bad example (by breaking the law) to a whole school is in your mind "absurdity"
Do you really think trying to act cool for an 8th grader should be a top-priority in a role model's life???
How are you going to top this? Play it louder from now on???
Sound-pollution is a serious issue.

I suggest you pay closer attention to REAL issues, including re-reading my post so that you can see for yourself that I responded to the absurd accusation that "the cop's job is to enforce the law, not to interpret the law".

You got a lecture, would you prefer a ticket next time?

Well thank you MsTerry... Where would we be without you and your literal dosing on devil's advocacy? If you could, please pay a little closer attention to the real issues...

In as much as this is about the absurdity of pulling someone over for loud music, it is more about the way this cop conducted himself. He was completely inappropriate in the manner in which he spoke to me, in his assassination of my personal integrity, and whether or not he had due cause (based on civil codes??) to pull me over, his treatment of me was abusive.

He is a poor representation of the Sebastopol Police Department, and I'd even go so far as to say he is a hazard to his organization.

ladybug5

09-18-2008, 12:52 PM

Im wondering if there was any disrespect given to the cop?
Did you have a respectful and cooperative attitude?
Did you roll your eyes? Sneer? Make any comments that
would be considered "attitude" ...............

"his assassination of my personal integrity, and whether or not he had due cause (based on civil codes??) to pull me over, his treatment of me was abusive."
Was his "sauntering" up to your car abusive?

Sounds like you have a bit of an attitude,, He didnt even
give you a citation which he could have. Im not sure how
you were abused. If it was so unprofessional ,, go make an incident report.

MsTerry

09-18-2008, 01:11 PM

Thanks Ladybug,
I was just about to edit my post to that effect.
It dawned on me that she is belittling the cop and me.
That looks like a pattern to me.
In both stated cases the "bad" cop didn't issue a citation.
I could have used a cop like that last week!

Im wondering if there was any disrespect given to the cop?
Did you have a respectful and cooperative attitude?
Did you roll your eyes? Sneer? Make any comments that
would be considered "attitude" ...............

"his assassination of my personal integrity, and whether or not he had due cause (based on civil codes??) to pull me over, his treatment of me was abusive."
Was his "sauntering" up to your car abusive?

Sounds like you have a bit of an attitude,, He didnt even
give you a citation which he could have. Im not sure how
you were abused. If it was so unprofessional ,, go make an incident report.

Ally

09-18-2008, 01:50 PM

Ally

09-18-2008, 02:38 PM

Im wondering if there was any disrespect given to the cop?
Did you have a respectful and cooperative attitude?
Did you roll your eyes? Sneer? Make any comments that
would be considered "attitude" ...............

That's a great question, one that I was hoping (and planning) to address.
I was quite honestly, very respectful to this police officer, so any and all responses to his interrogation were "yes sir, no sir". I was very cooperative, not snide in the least (seems to me, that had I been rude to him, he would have given me a ticket). I listened to what he had to say, all be it badgering and bullying.
His behavior was his own, and it was completely unprovoked.

Sylph

09-18-2008, 06:03 PM

I'm beginning to think it's not safe to post an issue of concern on Wacco because the poster is likely to be raked over the coals and denigrated.
Ally was accused of 'belittling' the police of Sebastopol. (No, not all of them, just one)
She was told to 'get over it'. How sensitive!
Something about her 'skinny butt'. Take that as a compliment, Ally!
She was criticized for wanting to be 'treated with kid gloves', when she only wanted the respect we all deserve.
She was accused of 'slamming the police department', (No, see above)
It was implied that if she 'appreciated the good' then bad things wouldn't happen to her, so really it was her fault. (I'm paraphrasing and interpreting).
She was chided for 'breaking the law in front of the whole school' and that 'her top priority was to act cool for 8th graders'. How demeaning!
Last but not least, she was told she must 'have attitude' and had probably rolled her eyes or sneered at the officer and so deserved her abuse.

Nice work, conscious community!

I have had very good experiences with the Sebastopol Police and respect and admire what they do. I too feel safe when out and about at any time of day or night and I'm grateful for that.
Malene made good points about the officer having a 'bad day'. As a nurse, I am not allowed to have a bad day and insult a patient. I'd be fired and I'd deserve to be fired. Imagine if I had a patient (who was a mother) I didn't approve of and told her that I hoped she didn't have any more children at home since she was such a bad example!
The officer's comments were inappropriate and he sullies the reputation of all the other good cops. Maybe he needs a conference with his boss to remember how to relate better to the public.

Malene

09-18-2008, 06:37 PM

I have received a few emails in regards to this conversation send directly to me. The emails inform me that I "only hear one side of the encounter".

First of all let me start out by saying I am fairly smart - yes, really my IQ is quite high. I am fully aware that I have only heard one side of this story. When I respond to a story like this - and especially respond publicly it is for a few reasons.

I know for an absolute fact that sometimes some cops behave disrespectfully. My public response is to show that generally when cops behave disrespectfully I believe they should be reported.

Now - the only information I have is one persons story. Maybe the whole story is a lie. Maybe she never met the cop as she says. Maybe she did get another ticket. Maybe she was incredibly rude to the cop... Maybe, maybe, maybe.

I cant respond to maybe's, I can only respond to what is in the post. Based on what is in the post I think it would be extremely appropriate to report this guy, which was my first post on the topic. And I want to offer my personal support and understanding to Ally that it was most likely a hurtful, stressful and maybe even intimidating situation she found herself in.

Now - assuming that by and large the post is true, I know a few things.

I know that a public servant in a position of power felt it was appropriate to say the following things to a mother:

“And what type of example are you setting when you pull up playing that music? What do you want the other children to THINK when they see you – an ADULT – behaving in such a manner? You are supposed to be setting the examples, not letting your kid dictate what you do. I hope you don’t have any other kids!” .

Why would any human being tell a mother:"I hope you dont have any other kids"?

I think a statement like this is designed to hurt and to denigrate another human.

When is it ok to make such statements? Is it ok when the playground bully decides to pick on the kid who is different? Is it ok in the work place? Is it ok when a teacher denigrates a kid? Is it ok when a doctor gets frustrated with a patient for say - being overweight? Is it ok for a nurse to get pissed at a patient?

When is it ok to denigrate a mother? When is it ok to not at the very least say "Thank You" to a step mother who makes an effort to take care of someone elses kid? Tell me - when is a statement like that ever ok?

When are denigrating statements specifically designed to hurt someone not abusive? When are any kind of denigrating comments ok between human beings?

Why should we not expect to be entitled to kindness?

I dont really care what Ally may or may not have done. In fact - as far as I understand the police code the police are supposed to be courteous even to hardened criminals.

You cant hardly call someone playing music a little too loud a "hardened criminal", and as I said even if she was she had a right to be treated with courtesy and respect.

(now having said this - I would like to go on record as one of those sound sensitive people who feels loud music, especially in the morning is a major disturbance that given the choice I would kinda like not to have to deal with)

Malene

Im wondering if there was any disrespect given to the cop?
Did you have a respectful and cooperative attitude?
Did you roll your eyes? Sneer? Make any comments that
would be considered "attitude" ...............

"his assassination of my personal integrity, and whether or not he had due cause (based on civil codes??) to pull me over, his treatment of me was abusive."
Was his "sauntering" up to your car abusive?

Sounds like you have a bit of an attitude,, He didnt even
give you a citation which he could have. Im not sure how
you were abused. If it was so unprofessional ,, go make an incident report.

MsTerry

09-18-2008, 06:41 PM

Sylph,
calm down
remember there are always TWO sides to a story.
We don't know what the cop said, only what Ally heard
Now only judging from how she reacted to my post, I think there is a lot of interpreting going on as to what the cop said and did.
Just look at the fact that she thinks it is OK to blast music, even if it is against the law.
It is quite revealing.

I'm beginning to think it's not safe to post an issue of concern on Wacco because the poster is likely to be raked over the coals and denigrated.
Ally was accused of 'belittling' the police of Sebastopol. (No, not all of them, just one)
She was told to 'get over it'. How sensitive!
Something about her 'skinny butt'. Take that as a compliment, Ally!
She was criticized for wanting to be 'treated with kid gloves', when she only wanted the respect we all deserve.
She was accused of 'slamming the police department', (No, see above)
It was implied that if she 'appreciated the good' then bad things wouldn't happen to her, so really it was her fault. (I'm paraphrasing and interpreting).
She was chided for 'breaking the law in front of the whole school' and that 'her top priority was to act cool for 8th graders'. How demeaning!
Last but not least, she was told she must 'have attitude' and had probably rolled her eyes or sneered at the officer and so deserved her abuse.

Nice work, conscious community!

I have had very good experiences with the Sebastopol Police and respect and admire what they do. I too feel safe when out and about at any time of day or night and I'm grateful for that.
Malene made good points about the officer having a 'bad day'. As a nurse, I am not allowed to have a bad day and insult a patient. I'd be fired and I'd deserve to be fired. Imagine if I had a patient (who was a mother) I didn't approve of and told her that I hoped she didn't have any more children at home since she was such a bad example!
The officer's comments were inappropriate and he sullies the reputation of all the other good cops. Maybe he needs a conference with his boss to remember how to relate better to the public.

MsTerry

09-18-2008, 09:39 PM

She was chided for 'breaking the law in front of the whole school' and that 'her top priority was to act cool for 8th graders'. How demeaning!

uhm, Sylph
Are you trying to imply that it is OK for an adult to break the law in front of the whole school?
Are you trying to imply that Ally was not trying to act cool by playing the music loud only in the presence of her daughter (her words)?
If you are not, please explain to me what part is demeaning?

nicofrog

09-18-2008, 11:29 PM

Hello
what have we here
"skinny butt?" was there a picture on that posting I missed
I would say YOUR posting was an abuse of power,accept, thats right,your NAME isn't up there and like a tiny dog locked in a car you can bark a lot behind your little computer screen.
How dare you call people names you don't even know on this board.
I really wish we could just flag you like they do on craigs
Nico

I am really amused at how entitled we feel to belittle the
police in our community who have done such a incredible job. We have low crime compared to most of California,
very little gang activity and a really safe community. So he was in a bad mood and didn't treat you with the respect you would have liked and obviously deserve. Get over it.

Abuse of power is not being arrogant. He didn't strip search you because you look like a gang member.. He didnt throw your skinny butt in jail. He didn't taser you?

Personally, I appreciate the vigilance of keeping loud
base music down. I hate to go into certain Santa Rosa
neighborhoods for that reason. I live close to town and
cringe when I hear the loud base music....

I'd be in a bad mood too, if I had to deal all day with people who felt like they should be treated with kid gloves... So get your tail light fixed and show some respect to people who live in the neighborhood by turning down your speakers.

And to all the others that are insulted by this " abuse of power" , Try walking a day in their shoes and then get back to me.

Sylph

09-19-2008, 12:24 AM

Are you trying to imply that Ally was not trying to act cool by playing the music loud only in the presence of her daughter (her words)?
If you are not, please explain to me what part is demeaning?

OK, I'll try, but I doubt this is a constructive exercise.

I like it how you think that YOUR feelings are REAL issues and the fact that you are setting a bad example (by breaking the law) to a whole school is in your mind "absurdity"
Do you really think trying to act cool for an 8th grader should be a top-priority in a role model's life???

Ms Terry, you are assuming that the decibel level of ‘Tool’ (or whatever hideous-to-grown-ups music it was) was indeed so loud as to be against the law. Maybe it wasn’t that loud and the cop just didn’t like the genre of music. If it really was so loud as to be against noise statutes, all Ally needed was a respectful warning, not a series of insults. You are insinuating that ‘acting cool’ is a top priority’ for her as a parent. That is demeaning. This little custom of letting the step-daughter choose her music on school mornings is a tiny aspect of her total parenting, for all you know, but you slam her for not being a good role model. If you were called a bad parent by a cop, your Feelings would be hurt too! Let’s give fellow Waccos the benefit of the doubt and be a little more supportive!

Bryan

09-19-2008, 04:41 AM

A police officer is trained to be respectful.
Some police officers need more training.
This one sure seems to need it.

The initial post said that all the officer needed to do was ask her (the driver) to keep it down next time. To explicitly accuse someone of being a bad parent is way out of line for the given situation. To say "I hope you don't have any other children" is offensive.

This guy needs a complaint in his file each and every time he acts disrespectful.

Most police would agree with that approach to resolve this compaint, as they do not want the public to be given a bad impression based upon one officer, and in our little town, probably the Chief already knows exactly which officer was involved before being told.

That said, we have had real issues of police power causing people in this county to die. Were those criminally abusive situations? Maybe.
Do we need a separate group to investigate true police abuse? Maybe.

In any case, this one was not criminal - it was only another ego trip on this one cop's personal itinerary.

My uncle used to be an Oakland policeman. That is a tough town.
I personally have not had trouble with any particular cop in the Bay Area. And I hope not too. There are appropriate ways of talking with police that they in turn respect.

Police in Sebastopol should know the difference between telling a mother to tone down the radio and handling a true criminal suspect. They should be looking at each situation carefully to ensure everyone's safety.
In today's world, a gang banger can be in any car so it is dangerous to be a cop.

That said, I still think this cop has an attitude problem and little things set him off - like the black guy hanging out a car window. Maybe he would have pulled over a white guy doing the same, who knows? Assuming the woman driver here is white, and assuming this cop was white - would he have still said to a black woman- "I hope you don't have any other children?" If he had, the racism inherent in that statement would be completely intolerable. As such, it is STILL intolerable without the racist element.

Fyi - If they decide to let him go, he will just end up somewhere else.

If someone on an ego trip does pull you over, and tries to puff themselves up, just remember this about any jerk - tomorrow, they will STILL be a jerk! That's the best payoff you can get.

Be as polite as humanly possible and try not to laugh out loud at them for being such a jerk - it makes them more of a jerk and you could end up getting arrested for laughing at a jerk!

Wait them out, and THEN laugh at them after you have left 'the scene of the crime'! (not fastening seatbelt, not turning your signal on a left turn, or another similarly huge violation of the Civil Code.)

Braggi

09-19-2008, 07:31 AM

uhm, Sylph
Are you trying to imply that it is OK for an adult to break the law in front of the whole school?
Are you trying to imply that Ally was not trying to act cool by playing the music loud only in the presence of her daughter (her words)? ...

MsTerry, you are sounding a bit like a parrot here squawking away that Ally was breaking a law. Do you know what law she was breaking? Do you, in fact, know she had her music at a level that constitutes breaking that law? Some communities don't even have noise ordinances. Most require complaints from other citizens before a noise ordinance is considered broken. I don't think anyone complained about Ally's music.

So, I think you're wrong. Perhaps you could support your statements before repeating your allegation again.

-Jeff

PS. I don't think it's illegal to "act cool."

MsTerry

09-19-2008, 09:32 AM

Ms Terry, You are insinuating that ‘acting cool’ is a top priority’ for her as a parent. .
Had Ally said, I play my music too loud so that my daughter can impress her classmates, but I know I shouldn't really do that, that would be an honest assessment of the situation.
Had she followed that up with the story of an overbearing cop, the whole thing would have been believable.

This little custom of letting the step-daughter choose her music on school mornings is a tiny aspect of her total parenting, for all you know, but you slam her for not being a good role model.

Sylph
It is not that I object to what kind of music she plays, but that she uses the volume level as her personal business card.

There’s a little bit of tradition we’ve got where on the way to middle school, our 8th grader gets to choose the music she wants to listen to, and then we turn it up loud…loud enough that when she climbs out of the car at school you can hear the music playing – it’s like her greeting for the morning – “hey guys, I’m here”.
I have to catch myself not trying to act too cool with my 8th grader, caus yes, they are at that stage were it feels that I'm going to lose my baby if I don't act at their level.

If you were called a bad parent by a cop, your Feelings would be hurt too!

if I was called a bad parent by a cop, and I was setting a bad example for my kids, I would tell them that he is right.
Even if I didn't like his behavior.
It is nice and easy to point out other's faults, but it is more beneficial to look at our own mistakes.
I think the following quote shows Ally's state of mind while talking to the cop

I live in a neighborhood too, and sometimes people play their music super loud when they drive down the road.
I do not, however, put them in some delinquent category because they like loud music.

Maybe it wasn’t that loud and the cop just didn’t like the genre of music.
Frankly, I think the guy might have liked the music, that's why he let her go.........................

MsTerry

09-19-2008, 09:36 AM

.
Perhaps you could support your statements before repeating your allegation again.

-Jeff

Last time I went to traffic school, 9 years ago, I was told that if you can feel the bass from the car in front of you, they are breaking the law.
So, bring me up to speed.

shellebelle

09-19-2008, 10:08 AM

I did not see that "loud base" was part of what Ally said but since the subject is up

Did the school also mention that "felt" and "heard" base have been known to disrupt heart beats and thus are EXCEPTIONALLY dangerous to those with arrhythmia and those with pace makers.

Remember not everyone has diagnosed arrhythmia. People can go through life for years and not know they have a heart condition.

Last time I went to traffic school, 9 years ago, I was told that if you can feel the bass from the car in front of you, they are breaking the law.
So, bring me up to speed.

nicofrog

09-19-2008, 11:08 AM

Oh My God,
and Get Out of Town:
etc.... how these authority fearing citizens are missing the point here!
They really think Ally is a punk blasting through town abusing the neighborhood .
I doubt I would have even noticed her car had I been there at the time.
WHAT ABOUT HER CHILD where are you people???,maybe the kid was LATE to school with an embarrassing and difficult story to try and tell, an adult male stranger(cop or no cop) was just being mean to her mother, who was sincerely trying to enjoy life with her for a second in George Bushulvania here.
Lord. What if the other kids saw it go down, and questioned her about it "oh the cop said I have a bad mother" IS THIS THE ROLE YOU WANT The authorities in our community to have THERAPISTS ?
What if I was the dad dropping my kid off and I drove her in on my HARLEY, I could crank it a bit when I was leaving and get 100 more decibals than her stereo.....oh well, that's ok, cause California has a special LOOP HOLE in the sound ordinances just for Harleys folks! betcha' didn't know that,seems Harley sells a lotta bikes to COPS you see, and they kind of make a pretty big contribution to the police retirement fund..
SO I hope that same cop comes to the school parking lot next week
and watches carefully as parents leave the lot... You see there's a LAW in California against crossing a sidewalk, when entering a street out of a parking area( this includes your home) without stopping first. I'll bet that cop can stop a lot of people, and explain to their children what bad drivers they are, how they are "scofflaws" next only to terrorists. Better yet he could ticket them for roll stopping.( a real stop is three seconds) and bring in some revenue,heck if they were rude and protested I'm sure He's within rights to book them, impound the car ,search and retain the contents,and retain any minors on board if there is not an adult to accompany them.
I'll bet there's a computer at the police station, and by now they are all reading this like crazy, I'd like to see a posting from the Police chief here, like the one we got on the Graton Fire Siren Issue as to how we should look at this incident. Personally,I;m sorry to say, I believe there is a wave of approval for "crack downs" going on in our country, and it Ain't about Gang violence , or meth labs, its about training every day people to submit respectfully.
I have Respect for law,and the people who work in positions of "authority" in our country. and true peace is achieved by MUTUAL respect, not authoritarianism.
Not hiding behind a screen with a fake name
Nico
If you have a strong opinion, be strong enough to say who you are.
You are not required to answer any questions a police officer asks you accept your i.d. auto information, and what you think you were doing regarding the infraction. if he asks your mothers maiden name
"good question sir" how dare you play that music? " good question sir" etc.
he may Not search your car or person without probable cause or a warrant.
There are a million dinky little laws you may not know about. I suggest you learn them and be very careful not to break them in the next 6 months

Barry

09-19-2008, 11:13 AM

Let me point out that the point of this topic is not whether its OK or legal to play loud music in your car. Even if you a doing something blatantly illegal and you show some respect and cooperation to the law officer, you should be treated with respect.

I am grateful for the Police's essential role in protecting us all. They are given a lot of authority and trust by us and thus must act beyond reproach. It's totally unacceptable for them to abuse that power and trust in any way, not just in extreme ways (strip search, taser, etc.) but in any way! How would your feel about your doctor and shrink or your kid's teacher taking advantage of the trust we give them?

I had a similar encounter with "Sebastopol finest" (which is what they should be!). I was driving south from downtown Sebastopol around 11pm one evening earlier this year. I was tired and anxious to be home. It was clear weather and the streets were empty. I have no doubt that I was driving over the speed limit, maybe 35-40mph in the 25mph limit area that extends a fair bit south of downtown Sebastopol on S. Main Street.

I was pulled over and the older policeman (quite possibly the same one Ally experienced) knew he had me and knew I wanted to avoid getting a ticket. He proceeded to "play" with me for an extended time, quite like a cat playing with a caught mouse. I made some passing reference to a "speed trap" and since it was the only thing that he could construe any sign of disrespect, he proceeded to play power trips with me for 15 and 20 minutes coming back time and time again to my "speed trap" comment, despite my repeated apologies and acknowledgment that it wasn't a speed trap but rather an appropriate 25mph zone. He seemed to delight in the game as was FAR from professional or respectful. He did not give me a ticket. I so wish I had the presence of mind to record his badge number.

I have known the police chief Jeff Weaver fore many years and he is a good man. I'm sure he would be aghast if he had witnessed how one of his officers acted. I hope Ally will file a formal complaint, or at least speak with Jeff Weaver about it, and if she does I will join her as well.

Braggi

09-19-2008, 12:17 PM

[B][SIZE=4][COLOR=Blue]I did not see that "loud base" was part of what Ally said but since the subject is up ...

Please folks, in music it's spelled "bass" like the fish, but pronounced like "base," which describes the cop's behavior.

... Did the school also mention that "felt" and "heard" base have been known to disrupt heart beats and thus are EXCEPTIONALLY dangerous to those with arrhythmia and those with pace makers. ...

Nobody is going to suffer a heart attack from a car going by with loud bass. Nope. Perhaps if you were at a rap concert sitting in front of the speakers and even then I doubt it.

... Remember not everyone has diagnosed arrhythmia. ...

I'd say diarrhea would be the bigger problem as I've nearly crapped my pants when one of those guys drove past.

-Jeff

RichT

09-19-2008, 01:23 PM

I'd say diarrhea would be the bigger problem as I've nearly crapped my pants when one of those guys drove past.

-Jeff
:xtrmlaugh:

Thanks Jeff. I needed a laugh today.

Now isn't that profiling on your part? Are you guessing that they are gangbangers looking for some drive-by shooting action?

(just kidding, Jeff)

I grew up in Nashville. It seems like most of the cops I encountered there were rednecks looking for power over other people. The few times I encountered cops back there I felt that they were very disrespectful. It took a while to adjust to the cops here. I have found the police here to be very friendly and cordial. In Nashville, I would never approach a cop to ask for help or information, but here I no longer hesitate.

Rich

MsTerry

09-19-2008, 02:12 PM

So now we have 3 stories of would-be violators.
But no tickets?
Is it possible that we have a rogue cop, who likes to lecture but is basically illiterate, and can't write tickets?
Maybe we have a surplus and we don't need the money?

MsTerry

09-19-2008, 02:31 PM

PS. I don't think it's illegal to "act cool."

Here are some acts that teenagers think is cool.

-use a bass-ball batt to smash mailboxes
-get liquor without a license
-get drunk and or stoned
-take food from big stores, because they are rich and deserve it
-hack in to computers
-put graffiti on homes
-play base bass music and cause Braggirea

Electric Horseman

09-20-2008, 01:48 AM

The relevant law is Sec 27007 Vehicle Code. If you have a driver license you should know it -

27007. No driver of a vehicle shall operate, or permit the
operation of, any sound amplification system which can be heard
outside the vehicle from 50 or more feet when the vehicle is being
operated upon a highway, unless that system is being operated to
request assistance or warn of a hazardous situation.
This section does not apply to authorized emergency vehicles or
vehicles operated by gas, electric, communications, or water
utilities. This section does not apply to the sound systems of
vehicles used for advertising, or in parades, political or other
special events, except that the use of sound systems on those
vehicles may be prohibited by a local authority by ordinance or
resolution.

There is no exception in the law for Harleys, and when 50 of
those A.H.'s come through town with the g. damn things blasting
your eardrums out, they should all be arrested and locked up, every time.
</pre><hr>

Oh My God,
and Get Out of Town:
etc.... how these authority fearing citizens are missing the point here!
They really think Ally is a punk blasting through town abusing the neighborhood .
I doubt I would have even noticed her car had I been there at the time.
WHAT ABOUT HER CHILD where are you people???,maybe the kid was LATE to school with an embarrassing and difficult story to try and tell, an adult male stranger(cop or no cop) was just being mean to her mother, who was sincerely trying to enjoy life with her for a second in George Bushulvania here.
Lord. What if the other kids saw it go down, and questioned her about it "oh the cop said I have a bad mother" IS THIS THE ROLE YOU WANT The authorities in our community to have THERAPISTS ?
What if I was the dad dropping my kid off and I drove her in on my HARLEY, I could crank it a bit when I was leaving and get 100 more decibals than her stereo.....oh well, that's ok, cause California has a special LOOP HOLE in the sound ordinances just for Harleys folks! betcha' didn't know that,seems Harley sells a lotta bikes to COPS you see, and they kind of make a pretty big contribution to the police retirement fund..
SO I hope that same cop comes to the school parking lot next week
and watches carefully as parents leave the lot... You see there's a LAW in California against crossing a sidewalk, when entering a street out of a parking area( this includes your home) without stopping first. I'll bet that cop can stop a lot of people, and explain to their children what bad drivers they are, how they are "scofflaws" next only to terrorists. Better yet he could ticket them for roll stopping.( a real stop is three seconds) and bring in some revenue,heck if they were rude and protested I'm sure He's within rights to book them, impound the car ,search and retain the contents,and retain any minors on board if there is not an adult to accompany them.
I'll bet there's a computer at the police station, and by now they are all reading this like crazy, I'd like to see a posting from the Police chief here, like the one we got on the Graton Fire Siren Issue as to how we should look at this incident. Personally,I;m sorry to say, I believe there is a wave of approval for "crack downs" going on in our country, and it Ain't about Gang violence , or meth labs, its about training every day people to submit respectfully.
I have Respect for law,and the people who work in positions of "authority" in our country. and true peace is achieved by MUTUAL respect, not authoritarianism.
Not hiding behind a screen with a fake name
Nico
If you have a strong opinion, be strong enough to say who you are.
You are not required to answer any questions a police officer asks you accept your i.d. auto information, and what you think you were doing regarding the infraction. if he asks your mothers maiden name
"good question sir" how dare you play that music? " good question sir" etc.
he may Not search your car or person without probable cause or a warrant.
There are a million dinky little laws you may not know about. I suggest you learn them and be very careful not to break them in the next 6 months

Electric Horseman

09-20-2008, 02:06 AM

It's not unreasonable for him to enforce the Vehicle Code, but his remarks about the kind of music and your parenting were disrespectful, abusive, and inappropriate, and you should have made an immediate complaint by calling the PD as soon as you got home. Police officers, as all public employees, owe a duty of courteous and respectful speech and actions toward all persons at all time while on duty. As another poster said, you don't have to answer any question of a police officer except your name, and if you're driving, or in or near a motor vehicle in such circumstances that would lead a reasonable person to believe you were driving or will be driving the vehicle, you have to show driver license, registration, and proof of insurance.

Sebastopol's chief of police and almost all of its officers are pretty good guys compared to the rest of the world.

This morning on my way to take my kid to school, a Sebastopol motorcycle cop pulled me over for no good reason. Well, apparently his reason was the choice and volume of my music. Yep, that’s right, my music.

...

Electric Horseman

09-20-2008, 03:06 AM

You omit important facts here. If your daughter and her boyfriend had their brights on, and the officer's vehicle, or any vehicle, was less than 500 feet ahead if it was oncoming, or less than 300 feet ahead if they were following the other vehicle, he was driving negligently dangerously and unlawfully and deserved a citation. Sec 24407 Vehicle Code.

Every driver needs to know *all* the laws in Divisions 11, Rules of the Road, and Division 12, Equipment of Vehicles, of the Vehicle Code. No driver ed class, no traffic school, no driver school, teaches you all the laws contained in Divisions 11 and 12, for which you are responsible when you drive. There aren't that many, and they make sense, and following them makes for safe highways. You can ONLY get this information from the Vehicle Code. The "Driver Handbook" put out by the DMV gives only minimal mention of SOME laws, and in the past it has even published wrong information. As one example, about 2000 or 2001, the California Driver Handbook wrongly claimed that where a driveway meets a highway is an intersection. It is not. The error could have and may have caused fatal collisions. When I contacted the office of the Directer of the DMV in Sacramento, they wouldn't admit they made a mistake, and even hung up on me when I insisted against their denials, but it was corrected the next year.

For instance, how many drivers know this - you're stopped waiting at an intersection, or on a highway, to make a left turn, with your signal on. There's oncoming traffic. Who has the right of way?

Answer, the driver turning left at an intersection or upon a highway must come to a complete stop and remain stopped until all vehicles which may be of any danger during the turning movement have passed. Once having done this, THE DRIVER TURNING LEFT HAS THE RIGHT OF WAY, AND ADDITIONAL VEHICLES ONCOMING MUST STOP AND YIELD THE RIGHT OF WAY. That's the law, but be careful don't get killed by one of the multitude of ignorant drivers behind the wheel out there if you try it.

VEHICLE CODE

21801. (a) The driver of a vehicle intending to turn to the left or
to complete a U-turn upon a highway, or to turn left into public or
private property, or an alley, shall yield the right-of-way to all
vehicles approaching from the opposite direction which are close
enough to constitute a hazard at any time during the turning
movement, and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to the
approaching vehicles until the left turn or U-turn can be made with
reasonable safety.
(b) A driver having yielded as prescribed in subdivision (a), and
having given a signal when and as required by this code, may turn
left or complete a U-turn, and the drivers of vehicles approaching
the intersection or the entrance to the property or alley from the
opposite direction shall yield the right-of-way to the turning
vehicle.</pre>Case law: (these issues were settled generations ago, and remain the same today)

In action for damages for personal injuries sustained by plaintiff when his automobile, which had been proceeding in southerly direction, along main highway and, while in act of negotiating left turn into intersecting street, was struck by defendant's automobile which was proceeding in northerly direction along said highway, where plaintiff's automobile was in plain view for distance of over 200 yards, and defendant had ample opportunity to observe that plaintiff was attempting to make left turn across his path, and plaintiff entered intersection first, defendant was bound to yield right of way. Medeiros v. Soares (1936) 17 CA2d 176, 61 P2d 501.

Driver turning left who has yielded right of way to those who constituted hazard, if both he and they continued on their ways, is in turn entitled to right of way over those drivers who had not been hazards but, due to delay of his yielding, have become competitors of his for immediate use of portion of highway both wish to occupy. People v. Miller (1958) 161 CA2d Supp 842, 327 P2d 236.

The California Vehicle Code is available online at
https://leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/calawquery?codesection=veh&codebody
A paperback copy can be purchased at any office of the DMV for $6.00.

If you haven't read Divisions 11 and 12 of the California Vehicle Code, please, don't get behind the wheel again until you do.

IF YOU DRIVE A MOTOR VEHICLE, AND YOU HAVEN'T BOUGHT OR BORROWED OR READ THE VEHICLE CODE, DIVISION 11, RULES OF THE ROAD, AND DIVISION 12, EQUIPMENT OF VEHICLES, YOU ARE A NEGLIGENT DANGEROUS DRIVER WHO DOESN'T KNOW THE LAW, AND YOU SHOULD STAY OFF THE HIGHWAY UNTIL YOU DO.

That is really shocking, Ally. You should make out a complaint. Those comments he made were totally inappropriate. I have indulged my kids or my nephew with their choice of (obnoxious to me) music. Nothing irresponsible in that! You are sacrificing your 'adult nerve-endings' to give her an encouraging send-off to her school day. I think your custom with your step-daughter is cute and she's lucky to have you for a parent.

Several years ago my daughter and her boyfriend were pulled over at 3 AM in downtown Seb for the stated reason that my daughter had her brights on... with absolutely no other traffic on the streets! The real reason, though I can't prove it, is that her boyfriend was African American and he was leaning against the passenger window and therefore, his race was obvious. The officer was sure he would find 'something' and poked around the car, picking up my daughter's little baggie of coins, taking his time. His attitude was very patronizing. My daughter was livid and did file a report. I don't know what happened with the officer, but he has at least one report in his file.

Barry

09-20-2008, 08:49 AM

Again, the issue here is not the legality of the driver's driving, but rather the behavior of the policeman. Even if the brights were illegal, what right does the policeman have to search the car, slowly, as if trying to provoke a confrontation?

You omit important facts here. If your daughter and her boyfriend had their brights on, and the officer's vehicle, or any vehicle, was less than 500 feet ahead if it was oncoming, or less than 300 feet ahead if they were following the other vehicle, they were driving negligently dangerously and unlawfully and deserved a citation. Sec 24407 Vehicle Code....

Barry

09-20-2008, 06:46 PM

From here the discussion about "probable cause" and when police have the right to search your car raged on. I have split this off into into its own thread in WaccoTalk called, creatively enough, Probable Cause & Car Searches (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=42413).

Let's keep this thread focused on the abuse of power in Sebastopol and other local communities.

constantconnection

09-20-2008, 11:55 PM

I, too, was pulled over by a police officer for running a stop sign at which I most definitely came to a total and complete stop. It strikes me as scary and more than a little coincidental that my "brush with the law" happened at Ragle Rd. and Covert, only one block away from the Covert and Pleasant Hill intersection at which a previous poster had been pulled over for not stopping at a stop sign at which she had most definitely stopped. In my case, I have a cousin who was a police officer who told me to never argue with the police because it is only going to make the situation a whole lot worse, and that all I should ever say is "yes sir" and "no sir," so that's exactly what I did.

I had just moved to Sebastopol the day of the incident (Welcome to Sebastopol!), and I mentioned that I'd been moving all day and was just bringing over one last carload of belongings. He asked me where I was moving from. He asked me where I had moved to (which was about one block away from where I'd been pulled over). Fortunately for me I had items like a mop, a full length mirror and a trash can in the back seat to lend credibility. I said it was very late and it had been a long day, all of which was true. In fact, it was so late at night there were no other cars nor any people around (and therefore no witnesses to my alleged crime?)

When the officer finally "let me off the hook," (one that I never should have been on in the first place), he said something so absurd I could hardly believe he had actually said it. Before he walked away from my car he issued me a stern warning saying, "Don't think you can get away with running a stop sign just because you think nobody's looking because we're watching you!" It struck me as something a cop in a cop show on TV would say, not a police officer in real life. I would never even begin to think about running a stop sign just because I thought nobody was looking. I don't even "look" like a person who would get my kicks from sneaking through a stop sign without stopping -- though that should be completely beside the point.

I've lived in California long enough to know that the police are all over anyone who doesn't come to a full and complete stop at a stop sign and stay there for at least a good two seconds before proceeding (the emphasis being on the precise amount of time that has passed, not on how thoroughly and conscientiously one has ascertained that it is safe to proceed). It's embarrassing to say that such paranoia has been instilled in me by numerous people I've met who were cited for not having fully and completely stopped at a stop sign that once in a while I sometimes count one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two when I stop before proceeding just to keep it fresh in my mind, because that's what I've been told you need to do in order to avoid being pulled over.

Let me say right now before anyone gets any more up in arms than they already are on this thread that I am tremendously grateful for and supportive of police officers who, in both the letter and the spirit of the law, do their duty to enforce the laws to the benefit of us all. They are doing an often dangerous and thankless job, and they deserve the utmost of respect and appreciation on the part of one and all. But I hope there isn't anyone who thinks we should not be concerned about a police officer pulling over law abiding citizens for running stop signs they did not run.

In addition, the person who started the thread and four other respondees including me have related their experiences with a Sebastopol police officer talking to them in an overtly smarmy, condescending, totally inappropriate tone of voice and making completely unwarranted allegations about the character of the citizen to whom he/she was speaking -- and not only that but also projecting upon them imaginary future criminal behavior they most definitely have no intention of ever committing.

But alas there is no "criminal code" addressing that sort of behavior on the part of a police officer such as the one(s) in question and thus nothing to prevent he/she/them from spouting out whatever the heck happens to come to their mind at any given moment. Oh, that we all should have such license to go about our daily activities without being mindful of any need for propriety in our behavior towards others.

You can argue all you want to about the legalities of any particular situation, but I don't think the person who started this thread related to us what had happened to her in order to insist that she didn't violate any clause or subatomic subclause of the law, but rather that a police officer behaved in a very inappropriate and uncalled for manner in light of the situation at hand. Would any of you who are arguing about the pros and cons of the issue actually condone the way in which the officer behaved or the verbage that he/they used in that case or in the any of the subsequent cases chronicled in this thread? I truly most sincerely hope not.

Can anyone else besides me see that this is not a matter of taking sides on legal issues but of holding the police officer(s) in question -- if not to a higher standard than the rest of us which one might idealistically and perhaps unrealistically hope for -- at least to the same degree of decency and respect with which we have been taught to afford to them?

constantconnection

Electric Horseman

09-21-2008, 06:26 AM

I don't see anyone taking sides. It seems you are creating an either/or situation when none exists, and you seem to infer that discussion of the law implies no concern for the officer's conduct and the insult and emotional distress it caused the driver. I have seen no suggestion by any writer that the officer's conduct was not unacceptable. Holding a police officer to normal standards of courteous conduct and knowing your civil rights and how they work in detail are not mutually exclusive.

Also I am surprised with the way you refer to the law and civil rights in a ridiculing way ("clauses and subatomic clauses"), that tends to infer that the law is ridiculous or irrelevant or impotent or somehow deserves something less than respect as the foundation of our society and our liberty, or that a detailed knowledge of civil rights is some irrelevant intellectual indulgence or something like that.

Why do you seem to condemn discussion of the law, and imply that somehow it is an inappropriate misdirection of attention? It does not seem logical and it seems to imply that those discussing civil rights here are fools wasting energy or something :)

You can argue all you want to about the legalities of any particular situation, but I don't think the person who started this thread related to us what had happened to her in order to insist that she didn't violate any clause or subatomic subclause of the law, but rather that a police officer behaved in a very inappropriate and uncalled for manner in light of the situation at hand. Would any of you who are arguing about the pros and cons of the issue actually condone the way in which the officer behaved or the verbage that he/they used in that case or in the any of the subsequent cases chronicled in this thread? I truly most sincerely hope not.

Can anyone else besides me see that this is not a matter of taking sides on legal issues but of holding the police officer(s) in question -- if not to a higher standard than the rest of us which one might idealistically and perhaps unrealistically hope for -- at least to the same degree of decency and respect with which we have been taught to afford to them?

constantconnection

Electric Horseman

09-21-2008, 06:39 AM

Also, as holistic practitioners, we are offering a holistic remedy, rather than a symptomatic remedy :)

I, too, was pulled over by a police officer for running a stop sign at which I most definitely came to a total and complete stop. ...

MsTerry

09-21-2008, 10:21 AM

Thanks for your detailed story.
What I am seeing is a strange pattern.
people are being pulled over and are getting a lecture instead of a ticket, some for no apparent reason.
Is there an overactive cop on the loose with a need for socialization?

I, too, was pulled over by a police officer for running a stop sign at which I most definitely came to a total and complete stop. ...

"Mad" Miles

09-22-2008, 05:31 PM

Hey fellow targets for "The Man",

A few years ago I was told about the "Attitude Check" that SonomaCo Sheriff's perform. Particularly on those not evidencing privilege and power in our society.

The test is this. After pulling someone over in their vehicle, or at the beginning of a roust on the street when someone is a pedestrian, they (the cop) come on real strong, aggressive and insulting.

If one responds with anger or sarcasm, one has failed and will face even more escalating emotional and possible physical violence.

If one maintains one's cool, is all, "Yas Suh, No Suh, etc." the cop deescalates and there is the possibility of walking/driving away.

My informant (who was quasi-homeless for years and diagnosed mentally ill) said that he once responded with, "This is an attitude check, right officer? How'am I doing?" and that got a laugh and a quick deescalation.

*******

Years ago I came up with this "post-revolution" plan for policing.

Anyone who wants to be a cop is by default not allowed.

Everyone is trained in basic conflict resolution and defensive martial arts in Middle and High School. Then local safety patrolling is like jury duty, you gotta do it for a couple of weeks every few years. In groups of no less than five.

For jobs requiring professional expertise, such as forensic technician or murder detective, it can be a lifelong career. But subject to rigorous psychological testing to make sure you're not on a power trip.

I know, utopian and naive.

But I can dream can't I?

"Mad" Miles

:burngrnbounce:

:copcar:

:peacewins:

alanora

09-23-2008, 08:21 AM

I have had the thought before, that any one wanting to run for president should be eliminated from the running immediately, as a mindset not conducive to peace would be evident by the power seeking involved. Then what? mindy

Hey fellow targets for "The Man",

A few years ago I was told about the "Attitude Check" that SonomaCo Sheriff's perform. Particularly on those not evidencing privilege and power in our society.

The test is this. After pulling someone over in their vehicle, or at the beginning of a roust on the street when someone is a pedestrian, they (the cop) come on real strong, aggressive and insulting.

If one responds with anger or sarcasm, one has failed and will face even more escalating emotional and possible physical violence.

If one maintains one's cool, is all, "Yas Suh, No Suh, etc." the cop deescalates and there is the possibility of walking/driving away.

My informant (who was quasi-homeless for years and diagnosed mentally ill) said that he once responded with, "This is an attitude check, right officer? How'am I doing?" and that got a laugh and a quick deescalation.

*******

Years ago I came up with this "post-revolution" plan for policing.

Anyone who wants to be a cop is by default not allowed.

Everyone is trained in basic conflict resolution and defensive martial arts in Middle and High School. Then local safety patrolling is like jury duty, you gotta do it for a couple of weeks every few years. In groups of no less than five.

For jobs requiring professional expertise, such as forensic technician or murder detective, it can be a lifelong career. But subject to rigorous psychological testing to make sure you're not on a power trip.

I know, utopian and naive.

But I can dream can't I?

"Mad" Miles

:burngrnbounce:

:copcar:

:peacewins:

constantconnection

09-23-2008, 11:20 PM

I too was "harassed" for this very reason by an officer who was tall, had a distinct swagger in his dealing with me in front of my home. He accused me of running a stop sign at the corner of my street...He then told me he saw me run the stop sign, I argued that I did not, I drive an older manual transmission and cannot get the car into first gear with out completely stopping...Ultimately, he did not give me a ticket. Later, when I judged his line of sight from where he had been parked it would have been impossible for him to have seen me at the stop sign at all...This was when I lived on Bately Court off Washington (same general area as the others). It is also a lower income area (eg rentals for the most part) and probably a location where the police are called to regularly for family disputes and possibly drug dealing although I have no direct knowledge of such. I just see them around there often.Now that you mention the drug dealing thing, I was walking home on Ragle Rd. after a sunset walk in Ragle Park shortly after I had moved here. I sensed at the time that this was not a very good idea to be doing safety-wise to be walking on the street after dark, which I never would have imagined and which is a sad thing to have to say about Sebastopol. (And, no, I don't in general tend to be blindly naive.)

A couple of blocks from the park entrance I walked past a car parked at the curb. Two or three teenagers were sitting in the car. As I approached the vehicle, another car pulled up behind it and a woman stepped out. She did not look like she was in the "friends or family" category in regard to the teens though I admit I could be jumping to an egregiously erroneous conclusion.

She handed something to the teenaged driver and he handed her something back. I don't want to again be jumping to conclusions that this was a drug deal, though at the time it certainly struck me as such though I have absolutely no concrete proof whatsoever that this was indeed the case. For all I know the parties concerned may have been innocently trading heirloom tomatoes for cash. Appearances can be deceiving.

Too bad the police officer in question -- who has apparently pulled over at least three drivers, including me, in this same general area for running stops signs at which they most definitely came to a total and complete stop (and then proceeded to verbally harass and intimidate me/them/us) -- was not looming around in the dark or behind the bushes on this particular occasion. But then again, perhaps he was and for some reason decided not to make his presence known.

Ally

09-25-2008, 02:27 PM

Malene

09-25-2008, 03:52 PM

Ally,

Thanks for letting us know the outcome.

Malene

<META content=Word.Document name=ProgId><META content="Microsoft Word 12" name=Generator><META content="Microsoft Word 12" name=Originator><LINK href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Ccustomer%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml" rel=File-List><LINK href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Ccustomer%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx" rel=themeData><LINK href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Ccustomer%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml" rel=colorSchemeMapping><STYLE>  </STYLE> Yesterday, Barry and I went to meet with the Sebastopol Police Department’s Chief – Jeff Weaver, to discuss the nature of filing citizen reports and to find out from him how the department views such reports.

I must say that he was very approachable and respectful, and I was impressed with his availability.

He talked with us about the high standards that the department employs with all of its officers, and that it is a problem when those standards aren’t met. He talked about the process of filing a report – and how seriously he takes citizen complaints. The process to make a report is really very straightforward and consists of either filling out a form which you can find at the police station, or making a call to the station where they’ll take down your information. An interview is conducted and then a report is filed.

One interesting (and very useful) bit of information is that the department can look up any officer’s actions all the way back to 1989 – so just because we don’t get someone’s badge number and name, doesn’t mean we can’t file a report.

I am indeed filing a citizen report and I believe that Police Chief Weaver will take it seriously, and allow any and all avenues for discovery to take place. I strongly recommend to anyone who feels that they have been mistreated or disrespected by any officer of the Sebastopol Police Department, that they go to Chief Weaver and speak with him.

It’s important that we understand that as citizens we do have the right to make reports and call into accountability, our city officials. I think that far too often we assume that our voices won’t be heard, and that our cases will be taken without consideration - perhaps in some places this is true…
I think that thankfully for us – we live in Sebastopol and this is a place where we do have power, and community resources.
Let’s not forget that.

grahamron

09-25-2008, 06:33 PM

To All Sonoma County Citizens who have been Abused, even in trivial ways, by Highway Patrol cops and/or County Sheriff Cops. Or, argh, Sebastopol, Rohnert Park cops--the worst for harrassing innocent, harmless citizens.

100's of cops have been hired and trained to ask everyone they stop, and they stop everyone they can for the trivialist of reasons, such as: no license plate llight; tail light out; no seat belt; trailer hitch on bumper hides your license plate, etc.

West County highway patrol officers, dozens of new trainee recruits have been hired. The females wear bullet-proof vests on evening patrol. First thing they ask you is: Drivers License. Registration. Proof of Insurance. They KNOW that 25% of no-income and low-income West County residents do not have one of these. They will arrest, ticket you and tow your car. Sonoma County Police State, under leadership of the liar/criminal stonewaller Passalaqua, have filled county jails with "misdemeanor" violations.

They are in flagrant violation of the US Constitution, which all of them, from cop on the beat to the Superior Court Judges, swore to uphold! They all know this, too. But few people fight them. The Superior Court Judges just say: "Well, I don't handle US Constitution cases. Only Sonoma County felons and misdemeanors."

Solution: None.

Advice: If you want to slow them down, remember this and tell every person you know who drives a car:

1) NEVER say "Yes" if cop asks you "Have you had anything to drink?"

2) NEVER say "Yes" if cop asks "Do you have any drugs on you." NEVER! Even if you have prescription drugs. The bastards will arrest you if you don't have the doctor's order for a prescription, or if you lost it, or if you put the damned pills in your purse/pocket, after tossing away the MD Container.

3) ALWAYS, if you are low income or no income, DEMAND a FULL JURY TRIAL. Do NOT listen to the the prosecutor who will say "you will get six months if you ask for a jury trial." Prosecuters are ALL liars and whisper threats to you in courtroom if you demand a jury trial. This is again, 100% illegal llunder the constitution.

4) ALMOST NEVER trust the Public Defender. He/She are almost always are merely kissups to the judges and Passalaqua and the Assistant District Attorneys (prosecutors, swine, hateful, ignorant, proud of ignoring the US Constitution thley have sworn to uphold). Sonoma County pays these people, Public Defenders, Prosecutors, etc., so they will do what the Sonoma County Police State, under Passalaqua, orders them to do.

I've said enough. I'll probably get into serious trouble for saying this. So, please don't use my name, if possible. If not. Hell with it.

ONE MORE THING. ALWAYS take the name and badge number of these arrogant, thug officers who treat you like a criminal when you have broken no law. The, note the date, time place you were stopped, and report EVERY DAMNED ONE OF THEM to: GRAND JURY of Sonoma Countyl. Believe me, ifthey know they are being reported to the Grand Jury, they will think twice before they harrass innocent citizens.

Name Witheld by Request (I hope; I dunno how to do that).
25 Sep 2008