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Tars
07-21-2008, 11:43 AM
Let's Have Some Love for Nuclear Power



By WILLIAM TUCKER (https://online.wsj.com/article/SB121659839296769061.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries) July 21, 2008 Wall Street Journal (https://online.wsj.com/article/SB121659839296769061.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries)

"All over the world, nuclear power is making a comeback. British Prime Minister Gordon Brown has just commissioned eight new reactors, and says there's "no upper limit" to the number Britain will build in the future. German Chancellor Angela Merkel has challenged her country's program to phase out 17 nuclear reactors by 2020, saying it will be impossible to deal with climate change without them. China and India are building nuclear power plants; France and Russia, both of whom have embraced the technology, are fiercely competing to sell them the hardware.


And just last month John McCain called for the construction of 45 new reactors by 2030. Barack Obama is less enthusiastic about nuclear energy, but he seems to be moving toward tacit approval.


<table class="imglftbdy" align="left" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="250"> <tbody><tr><td>https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/ED-AH905_tucker_20080720123212.jpg</td></tr><tr><td class="medcrd">M.E. Cohen </td></tr></tbody></table> In the U.S. at present, 104 nuclear plants generate about 21% of our electric power. Last November, NRG Energy, of Princeton, N.J., became the first company to file for a license to build a new nuclear plant since the 1970s. Almost a dozen more applications have now also been filed.
While we may be at a turning point, one enormous question still hangs over this revival of nuclear power in the U.S.: Who is going to pay for it? The construction of reactors in the rest of the world is essentially a government enterprise. Private investment and even public approval are not always necessary. In the U.S., however, the capital will have to be raised from Wall Street. But not many investors are willing to put up $5 billion to $10 billion for a project that could become engulfed by 10 to 15 years of regulatory delay -- as occurred during the 1980s. The Seabrook plant in New Hampshire went through 14 years of that before opening in 1990. The Long Island Lighting Company's Shoreham plant began in 1973, but was shut down by protests in 1989 without generating a watt of electricity, and the company went bankrupt as a result.


If we are now going to choose nuclear power as a way to resolve both our concerns about global warming and our looming energy shortfalls, we are first going to have to engage in a national debate about whether or not we accept the technology. To begin this discussion, I suggest redefining what we call nuclear power as "terrestrial energy."


Every fuel used in human history -- firewood, coal, oil, wind and water -- has been derived from the sun. But terrestrial energy is different.
Terrestrial energy is the heat at the earth's core that raises its temperature to 7,000 degrees Fahrenheit, hotter than the surface of the sun. Remarkably, this heat derives largely from a single source -- the radioactive breakdown of uranium and thorium. The energy released in the breakdown of these two elements is enough to melt iron, stoke volcanoes and float the earth's continents like giant barges on its molten core.


Geothermal plants are a way of tapping this heat. They are generally located near fumaroles and geysers, where groundwater meets hot spots in the earth's crust. If we dig down far enough, however, we will encounter more than enough heat to boil water. Engineers are now talking about drilling down 10 miles (the deepest oil wells are only five miles) to tap this energy.


Here's a better idea: Bring the source of this heat -- the uranium -- to the surface, put it in a carefully controlled environment, and accelerate its breakdown a bit to raise temperatures to around 700 degrees Fahrenheit, and use it to boil water. That's what we do in a nuclear reactor.
Because the public first became aware of nuclear energy through warfare, reactors have always been thought of as "silent bombs." But nuclear plants cannot explode. The fissionable isotope of uranium must be enriched to 90% to create a weapon. In a reactor it is only 3%. You could not blow up a nuclear reactor if you tried.


Nor is the threat of terrorists crashing an airplane into a reactor and setting off a holocaust very plausible. The Department of Energy once crashed an F-4 jet going 500 miles per hour into a concrete wall the thickness of a nuclear containment structure. The plane vaporized while the concrete was barely dented. (You can watch it on YouTube: "Plane crashes into wall.")
Finally, the problem of radioactive waste has been absurdly exaggerated. More than 95% of the material in a spent fuel rod can be recycled for energy and medical isotopes.


We have a nuclear waste problem in this country because we gave up reprocessing in the 1970s. The fear was that terrorists or foreign nationals would steal plutonium from American reactors to build bombs. This is a bit like worrying that terrorists will steal all the gold from Fort Knox. Other countries have built bombs in the intervening years. They didn't need American plutonium to do it.


Meanwhile, France has proved that reprocessing works. With a fully developed nuclear cycle, the French now store all the waste from 30 years of producing 75% of its electricity beneath the floor of one room at La Hague in Normandy.


Three days after Sen. McCain made his proposal on June 18, Admiral "Skip" Bowman, president of the Nuclear Energy Institute, wrote an op-ed asking for yet more government support in developing nuclear energy. It can't work this way.


If nuclear energy is to progress, it must stand on its own. That means Wall Street has to invest. And convincing Wall Street to invest means persuading the public that there is nothing unacceptably dangerous or diabolical about nuclear power."

"Mad" Miles
07-21-2008, 05:42 PM
Let's NOT!

(And say we did.)

"Mad" Miles

:burngrnbounce:

P.S. One negative aspect of nuclear power that is often left out of the discussion (aside from cost of waste storage and disposal, decommissioning, insurance, etc. and the dangers from radiation releases, both operational and potentially catastrophic in the case of accidents or sabotage) is the security cost; political, legal, economic and social, of the police/military/surveillance state required to keep nuclear plants, and their fissionable materials, from the hands of the "bad guys" (i.e. the Terrorists!!!!!).

Ever visited a nuclear power plant?

I have.

San Onofre, Unit 3, under construction, It was the summer of 1982.

The most defended installation I have ever seen. Layer upon layer of ground defense. pill boxes, machine gun turrets, etc.

And I grew up on military bases in the U.S. and Asia. I've visited many a castle in Europe. San Onofre put all of them to shame.

You want habeus corpus (or at least its tattered shreds post 9/11)?

You want constitutional protections for privacy and against unreasonable search and seizure?

You can kiss them all goodbye in a nuclear power state.

Nukes are the fascists' wet dream.

"M"M

Braggi
07-22-2008, 12:56 AM
...

Nukes are the fascists' wet dream.

"M"M

Nuke proponents tell us how safe and financially sound nuclear plants are. I offer this in response: go ahead and build your nukes.

However, no publicly guaranteed financing,
no publicly guaranteed insurance,
all corporate board members on any company that will make any profit from the construction or operation of said nuke plant must offer all their personal assets and those of their heirs in guarantee of the safe operation of the plant into perpetuity,
a plan deemed safe by and approved by a 2/3 majority vote of the local community, state and country in which the plant is located must be recorded by the United Nations,
and all assets of those political entities must be put up as guarantee against failure to perform safely,
a plan to permanently house all waste products in leak proof containers for a minimum of 100,000 years must be designed and proven before construction of any power plant can begin.

That should keep 'em busy a while.

If they're such a financial dream and oh, so safe, they should have no problem getting private financing and insurance.

Oh, wait!
All the proponents are calling for FEDERAL financing and insurance!
What a surprise!

-Jeff

PS. And still no plan to handle the waste.

Lenny
07-23-2008, 12:02 PM
Nuke proponents tell us how safe and financially sound nuclear plants are. I offer this in response: go ahead and build your nukes. However, no publicly guaranteed financing, no publicly guaranteed insurance, all corporate board members on any company that will make any profit from the construction or operation of said nuke plant must offer all their personal assets and those of their heirs in guarantee of the safe operation of the plant into perpetuity, a plan deemed safe by and approved by a 2/3 majority vote of the local community, state and country in which the plant is located must be recorded by the United Nations, and all assets of those political entities must be put up as guarantee against failure to perform safely, a plan to permanently house all waste products in leak proof containers for a minimum of 100,000 years must be designed and proven before construction of any power plant can begin. That should keep 'em busy a while.
If they're such a financial dream and oh, so safe, they should have no problem getting private financing and insurance.
Oh, wait!
All the proponents are calling for FEDERAL financing and insurance!
What a surprise!-Jeff
PS. And still no plan to handle the waste.

Yo, Jeff. I am sure that you are willing to break the backs of the evil, large corporations so I suppose your quote, below, will be self serving towards that endeavor, as was the tone of your response.

"The Long Island Lighting Company's Shoreham plant began in 1973, but was shut down by protests in 1989 without generating a watt of electricity, and the company went bankrupt as a result."

Sixteen years, and about $10 to 15 billion dollars will slow down even Exon, Bill Gates, and WalMart and at the end they'll have nothing to show for it. Whoppee! All that money and nada. And promises of "more of the same" for all comers, eh?
Of course your proposal would also apply to the Hoover Dam and millions would still be burning whale blubber to light their homes. Onward into the darkness!
Oh, and the waste. Yes, that may be a problem, but then we could always NOT plan and then never discover how to rid our selves of such material. Fusion? Naw. We've already invented and discovered everything that will ever be. If we found out about disposal, with fusion, then all that hot material could be recycled, no? Naw, we don't want to recycle that stuff. Just let let the bogy-man keep us in the dark, afraid. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Let's build coal power plants that spew out 25 million tons of uranium into the sky, per year. And then demand we ALL plug in our hybrid cars at the same time at night and not overwork the windmills and solar plants. Sure, but only in a world with about 3/4 fewer people, and then, only the "right kind" of folks!

Braggi
07-23-2008, 01:54 PM
... "The Long Island Lighting Company's Shoreham plant began in 1973, but was shut down by protests in 1989 without generating a watt of electricity, and the company went bankrupt as a result."
...

Go read some Buckminster Fuller, Lenny. Then read the headlines today.

Look at all the recent posts here on Wacco on solar power.

Learn something Lenny. It's about time and it's not too late.

Solar is now. Nuclear is dead in so many ways. Not only is it yesteryear, it never should have been in yesteryear either. It was and always will be a disaster.

Fission reactors are a pipe dream and too dangerous to try to build on this Earth. Let's build the prototype on Mars. Or better yet, let's use the one that already gives us all of our power: it's a safe distance from population centers (about 150 million kilometers).

Do you think my children and grandchildren should foot the bill for nuclear, the most costly power ever devised? Bah. That's so selfish of an "older" person.

I'm just glad you're so far in the minority on this issue.

-Jeff

Lenny
07-24-2008, 05:17 AM
Go read some Buckminster Fuller, Lenny. Then read the headlines today.
Look at all the recent posts here on Wacco on solar power. Learn something Lenny. It's about time and it's not too late. Solar is now. Nuclear is dead in so many ways. Not only is it yesteryear, it never should have been in yesteryear either. It was and always will be a disaster.
Fission reactors are a pipe dream and too dangerous to try to build on this Earth. Let's build the prototype on Mars. Or better yet, let's use the one that already gives us all of our power: it's a safe distance from population centers (about 150 million kilometers). Do you think my children and grandchildren should foot the bill for nuclear, the most costly power ever devised? Bah. That's so selfish of an "older" person.

I've not read of thought of Bucky for the longest time. I remember Berkeley, 197Something, and his talk via satellite. Great times. I don't recall anything about nuclear, so I'm at a disadvantage. I recall him stating that we could end world starvation with food grown ONLY in California! But we will never have our stuff together that well organized, I learned! No will.
You have convinced me, but not the market, that solar is good for homes, however beyond that it will not be possible unless we all live as 3rd World post-stone-age folks. I'm no electrician nor math wiz, but I could imagine if we all had plug-in cars and we all plugged into the grid at night, we would take that grid down. Point is: Solar won't meet the growing needs!


I'm just glad you're so far in the minority on this issue. -Jeff

Only here on Wacco, and only now. And that will be for the rest of my life, sorry to say. Because Obama has nuclear on his plate, as does the demands of the big picture market. The only reason I won't see it is because of folks like you stopping it at every turn. Now go have fun and play instead of arguing with this old man.

Braggi
07-24-2008, 12:42 PM
... Point is: Solar won't meet the growing needs!
...

Lenny, are you not reading anything these days except my posts? Try this one from Zeno:
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=39439

Interesting, no? A European "super grid" powered by renewables, even at night. How about that?

Go to Google news and try a search on solar power and read about all the many dozens of COMMERCIAL solar power plants going up around the world. That's happening NOW Lenny! Now. How about that?

New nuclear plants wouldn't produce any new power for dozens of years. The country will go broke waiting for them. We'll all have to learn to speak Arabic.

Even PG&E is scheduled to build huge commercial scale solar power plants within three years. Even you will be using solar power soon.

So stop fighting it. I really don't understand your resistance. Our energy needs are miniscule compared to the amount of solar energy that lands on our planet every day. The transition will take time and cost money, but a whole lot less money and less time than it would take to build a lot of new nukes.

Solar is happening right now and will continue happening every year from now on. Nuclear has been stalled for decades and rightfully so. Nobody is sitting in the dark Lenny!!! Sheesh. Let's get the solar power going and start shutting down the coal plants one by one. Then we can move to the nuclear plants and the oil powered plants.

We can do it! We are doing it!

-Jeff

scorpiomoon
07-26-2008, 06:10 PM
Yeah!! I think we should build some on the San Andreas Fault, I LOVE that idea. For some reason there is a sense of Armengeddon in the air. Lets start with radioacive waste!! Oh boy!! How thrilling!! Love a nuke today, its a brilliantly low brow idea. Lets not and say we did. How about something that is NOT self destructive or planetarally destructive as an alternative. If we can put a man on the moon for crying out loud, we can produce energy without radioactive waste to deal with. Once again, the boobs have us convinced it can't be done because truth is, it will be done and they will not make MONEY on what we will come up with. IF "public" utilities were actually public, if "public" airwaves were actually public, we would ACTUALLY be a republic. Corporations have stolen ALL of it, and getting it back from them, would take one first giant step. Somewhere on the lawbooks someone needs to make a task of making a corporation accountable and NOT a person anymore. Now I have heard about this concept and that is what holds the whole stupid corporate system together. Call the kettle BLACK take our rights back, and when they can't make gigantic profits anymore without prolonged legal wrangles then, voila!! Cars will run on water. You will produce your own electricity from your own solar panels, and so will everyone in the whole friggin world....

Lenny
07-28-2008, 08:02 AM
Lenny, are you not reading anything these days except my posts? Try this one from Zeno:
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=39439
Interesting, no? A European "super grid" powered by renewables, even at night. How about that?

Jeff, you give such good positive energy and I can really use it as I am wiped out from three days of celebration for birthday stuff. It must be my tired attitude that gives a wonky & scoffed read of Zeno's post, with a strong notion of pie-in-the-sky. Give $2B/year for something that will generate juice a thousand miles away in countries that hate Europe in about 30 years just seems "nice politics" sans substance. Of course that will not stop the proposed 30 coal plants Germany will build, nor the other 20 nuclear power plants that shall be built in the EU. Those are in the bag, while this PV plant seems so much fluff.


Go to Google news and try a search on solar power and read about all the many dozens of COMMERCIAL solar power plants going up around the world. That's happening NOW Lenny! Now. How about that? New nuclear plants wouldn't produce any new power for dozens of years.

Nuc plants won't be built because of those, such as yourself, that have been dead set against it for years. The good news is that thanks to you and your confederates those plants that will be built may be 100 times safer than need be, but the cost and time to build will also be about that much more!


Even PG&E is scheduled to build huge commercial scale solar power plants within three years. Even you will be using solar power soon. So stop fighting it. I really don't understand your resistance.

I look forward to that clean stuff piped into my home, and again, thanks. But of course the name of that company is PACIFIC Gas & Electricity. For me it means that they are responding to the social & political "norms" of the folks out here on the PACIFIC, which demand solar. But then, I suppose I wouldn't mind it if my juice came from Diablo Canyon nuclear plant, but I don't live with the other 23 million people it serves. Nor would I have minded the Vallecitos Power Plant to feed us all here, but that went away to Ohio after perfected in Alameda. Dang!


Our energy needs are miniscule compared to the amount of solar energy that lands on our planet every day. The transition will take time and cost money, but a whole lot less money and less time than it would take to build a lot of new nukes. Solar is happening right now and will continue happening every year from now on. Nuclear has been stalled for decades and rightfully so. Nobody is sitting in the dark Lenny!!! Sheesh. Let's get the solar power going and start shutting down the coal plants one by one. Then we can move to the nuclear plants and the oil powered plants. We can do it! We are doing it! -Jeff

Jeff, I know you like your weed and I too am jealous that plants are the best converters of sunlight, since we can only get about 6 to 8% out of "all that solar energy that lands on our planet" out of a PV unit.
After being around for almost 40 years the cost/return ratio of PV has not gone down much, and that is the reason, and I am only guessing, that the market hasn't run as fast as you towards all this "free engergy". As for the "time & money", we've not an abundance of each. Well, time is forever in this scheme (absent the apocalyptic and religious fervor of the Gia & Global Warming approach some may have.) but even then the answer to our anticipated needs just seems to be beyond the reach of solar, which is for warming our homes (and not even air conditioning them). Jeff, I do have a problem as I just can't see it. If I do research, and I probably won't due to full plate matters, it would be in the dry area of current use and anticipated needs of KWH of a given area over time. Speaking of which, got to go NOW.

Braggi
07-28-2008, 01:39 PM
... I look forward to that clean stuff piped into my home, and again, thanks. But of course the name of that company is PACIFIC Gas & Electricity. For me it means that they are responding to the social & political "norms" of the folks out here on the PACIFIC, which demand solar. ...


Actually, I wish that were true. They're responding to a Federal mandate. Oh well.

-Jeff