Al Gore & The Global Warming Agenda [Archive] - Page 2

thewholetruth

07-08-2008, 08:29 AM

Don, can you explain yourself?

Why yes, I can.

How am I intolerant?

You're mocking me, Ms. Terry. Do you mock folks who worship cows? Do you mock folks who believe God is a woman? Do you mock folks who don't believe in any god at all? Yet you mock my belief that there is One True God, Ma'am. How intolerant can you get? Not much more intolerant than that, Ms. Terry.

Words have meaning you know!

I know that, perhaps as well as anyone here.

You enjoy offending people, but also are offended yourself so quickly and then it is back to calling people Liberals and Christian-haters.

I didn't call you a Christian-hater, Ms. Terry. Freudian slip, perhaps?

Have I told you I am a Liberal?

Why yes, you have. Your comments reveal that about you as clear as day. Words mean something, remember, Ma'am?

Or do you just call anyone who doesn't agree with you a liberal?

I call Liberals "Liberals", Ma'am. Most Liberals don't take offense like you have here. There is a distinct difference between Conservatives, Moderates and Liberals, Ms. Terry. I can recognize that difference much of the time. Can't you?

Should I start calling you names too? Which one do you prefer?

"Christian" would work for me. "Sir" works for me, as well, if you have a problem using the word "Christian" in a way other than with the intention to offend.

I am still puzzled on why you sent a picture of what looks like Jesus under the heading What Does Satan Look Like? (https://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/satnlook.htm)
Maybe it is you who is mocking Christianity?

I won't even justify that with a response, Ma'am. Raise the bar, Ma'am. I won't spend much time down in the mud with anyone. It's a complete waste of time that ignorant people seem to love to participate in. I, however, do not have time for such ignorant nonsense.

MsTerry

07-08-2008, 11:27 AM

Sir,

FYI I have attached the difference between mockery and intolerant.
Words have meanings, even for Christians

<table style="width: 204px; height: 99px;" border="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" width="19%" bgcolor="#f8f8ff">
</td><td width="0%">
</td><td valign="top" width="21%" bgcolor="#f8f8ff">
</td><td width="0%">
</td><td valign="top" width="19%" bgcolor="#f8f8ff">
</td><td width="0%">
</td><td valign="top" width="19%" bgcolor="#f8f8ff">
</td><td width="0%">
</td><td valign="top" width="19%" bgcolor="#f8f8ff">
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
to mock (third-person singular simple present mocks (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mocks), present participle mocking (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mocking), simple past and past participle mocked (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mocked))
to mimic (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mimic), to simulate (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/simulate)
to make fun of by mimicking, to taunt (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/taunt)
to disappoint someone

intolerant
<table width="100%" border="0"> <tbody><tr> <td valign="top" width="33%" bgcolor="#f8f8ff">
</td> <td width="1%">
</td> <td valign="top" width="33%" bgcolor="#f8f8ff">
</td> <td width="1%">
</td> <td valign="top" width="33%" bgcolor="#f8f8ff">
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Unable or indisposed (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/indisposed) to tolerate (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tolerate), endure (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/endure) or bear (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bear).
Not tolerant (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tolerant); close-minded (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/close-minded) about new or different ideas (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/idea). indisposed to tolerate contrary opinions (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/opinion) or beliefs (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/belief); impatient of dissent (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dissent) or opposition (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/opposition); denying or refusing the right of private opinion or choice in others; inclined to persecute (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/persecute) or suppress (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/suppress) dissent.

I didn't call you a Christian-hater, Ms. Terry. Freudian slip, perhaps?You have called me that, Sir . Your slip.

I call Liberals "Liberals", Ma'am. Most Liberals don't take offense like you have here. There is a distinct difference between Conservatives, Moderates and Liberals, Ms. Terry. I can recognize that difference much of the time. Can't you?I don't recall taking offense, Sir Christian

I won't even justify that with a response, Ma'am. Raise the bar, Ma'am. I won't spend much time down in the mud with anyone. It's a complete waste of time that ignorant people seem to love to participate in. I, however, do not have time for such ignorant nonsense.People who can't defend their statements resort to dismissive statements such as yours.
Since you equated Jesus with Satan, I can understand your internal confusion. Words have a meaning, Sir Christian

You're mocking me, Ms. Terry. Do you mock folks who worship cows? Do you mock folks who believe God is a woman? Do you mock folks who don't believe in any god at all? Yet you mock my belief that there is One True God, Ma'am. How intolerant can you get? Not much more intolerant than that, Ms. Terry.

No, Sir, I don't mock your belief system. I mock the condescending way you write to me. The way you preach like you know something more than anyone else, the way you act like you are superior to me or any one else on this board.
I followed YOUR advice, Googled God and it turns out, you became a mockery of your One Truth Crusade, Sir
Words have meanings, Sir

Braggi

07-08-2008, 05:37 PM

Say, Jeff, why do you call me Pastor? Am I your pastor?

Well, I actually followed Zeno's cue and I probably shouldn't have. But you did make a post that pretty much assumed your audience was a flock. (Pastor means shepherd for those who wonder about that comment.)

I meant no offense by the comment.

-Jeff

thewholetruth

07-08-2008, 08:30 PM

Well, I actually followed Zeno's cue and I probably shouldn't have. But you did make a post that pretty much assumed your audience was a flock. (Pastor means shepherd for those who wonder about that comment.)

I meant no offense by the comment.

-Jeff

I took no offense. Zeno seems to have peeked at my profile before I cleaned it up. I certainly didn't intentionally imply that the audience here was my flock, if I did that. That wouldn't be accurate. Thanks for the clarification. I just wondered why. I know I didn't announce it.

thewholetruth

07-08-2008, 08:32 PM

Alrighty then...

Sir,

FYI I have attached the difference between mockery and intolerant.
Words have meanings, even for Christians

You have called me that, Sir . Your slip.

I don't recall taking offense, Sir Christian

People who can't defend their statements resort to dismissive statements such as yours.
Since you equated Jesus with Satan, I can understand your internal confusion. Words have a meaning, Sir Christian

No, Sir, I don't mock your belief system. I mock the condescending way you write to me. The way you preach like you know something more than anyone else, the way you act like you are superior to me or any one else on this board.
I followed YOUR advice, Googled God and it turns out, you became a mockery of your One Truth Crusade, Sir
Words have meanings, Sir

MsTerry

07-08-2008, 08:47 PM

I took no offense. Zeno seems to have peeked at my profile before I cleaned it up. I certainly didn't intentionally imply that the audience here was my flock, if I did that. That wouldn't be accurate. Thanks for the clarification. I just wondered why. I know I didn't announce it.
Your answer can be interpreted two ways.
Do you care to clarify whether you are a pastor, or not?

thewholetruth

07-09-2008, 06:41 AM

Your answer can be interpreted two ways.
Do you care to clarify whether you are a pastor, or not?

Do you care to clarify why that would make any difference to you, Ms. Terry? Seems odd to me that you would even ask me to give you personal information about myself, Ma'am. Do I seem that stupid to you that I would tell anyone online anything about myself which they might use to try to harm me? :hmmm:

MsTerry

07-09-2008, 07:53 AM

WOW, Don.
This is the most revealing statement you have made about yourself so far!
I wish you all the best, and the people around you.

Do you care to clarify why that would make any difference to you, Ms. Terry? Seems odd to me that you would even ask me to give you personal information about myself, Ma'am. Do I seem that stupid to you that I would tell anyone online anything about myself which they might use to try to harm me? :hmmm:

thewholetruth

07-09-2008, 06:37 PM

WOW, Don.
This is the most revealing statement you have made about yourself so far!
I wish you all the best, and the people around you.

*Polite smile, slow, friendly nod*

OrchardDweller

07-11-2008, 07:41 AM

Big Business to back carbon trading
BIG business will today pledge full support for an emissions trading scheme.
https://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23960552-5013404,00.html

Al Gore's green-investing partner goes for the gold
https://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/al-gores-fund-manager-green/story.aspx?guid=%7BAD36430D-4AFD-48AE-8CFA-4A20E83CFAF0%7D

'Green' car tax will hit poorest hardest
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2008/07/10/mroadtax410.xml

Air fares set for dramatic rise under EU emissions scheme
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1033383/Air-fares-set-dramatic-rise-EU-emissions-scheme.html

lynn

07-11-2008, 06:08 PM

d-cat...

I have problems with the whole 'global warming is man made chant'...But the water situation is definitely a problem...Thanks to overpopulation, Big Ag. and stupid decisions...

A good series for Californian's and all Southwesterner's to watch is 'Cadillac Desert'...

lynn

07-11-2008, 06:12 PM

'Green' car tax will hit poorest hardest
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...roadtax410.xml (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...roadtax410.xml)

-------

Yep, that's why I can't stand the 'global warming' apocolyptic nut-jobs...

StormDancer

07-13-2008, 12:27 PM

Zeno Swijtink

07-13-2008, 12:36 PM

Please explain "Cadillac Desert."
-ALW

See https://iii.sonoma.edu/record=b1399169~S6

OrchardDweller

07-24-2008, 10:37 PM

UN rejects water as basic human right

...a special resolution proposed by Germany and Spain at the UN human rights council was stripped of references that recognized access to water as a human right. The countries also chose to scrap the idea of creating an international watchdog to investigate the issue, choosing instead to appoint a new consultant that would make recommendations over the next three years...

https://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=b65b35fd-477f-4956-98f4-c17a46fe3e26

MsTerry

07-25-2008, 07:56 AM

It looks a little more complicated than your simple slogan

Meantime, Barlow denied that the resolution would require Canada to make bulk water exports to the U.S.
"The requirement in the United States would be for them to conserve first," said Barlow. "There's no requirement as a human right for us to provide water for swimming pools and golf courses and fountains in Las Vegas."

UN rejects water as basic human right

...a special resolution proposed by Germany and Spain at the UN human rights council was stripped of references that recognized access to water as a human right. The countries also chose to scrap the idea of creating an international watchdog to investigate the issue, choosing instead to appoint a new consultant that would make recommendations over the next three years...

https://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=b65b35fd-477f-4956-98f4-c17a46fe3e26

d-cat

08-03-2008, 12:10 AM

Fascist America, in 10 easy steps
by Naomi Wolf
https://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
2. Create a gulag
3. Develop a thug caste
4. Set up an internal surveillance system*
5. Harass citizens' groups
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
7. Target key individuals
8. Control the press
9. Dissent equals treason
10. Suspend the rule of law

*In Mussolini's Italy, in Nazi Germany, in communist East Germany, in communist China - in every closed society - secret police spy on ordinary people and encourage neighbours to spy on neighbours. This surveillance is cast as being about "national security"; the true function is to keep citizens docile and inhibit their activism and dissent.

https://freespeech.vo.llnwd.net/o25/pub/pp/images/july2008/170708obama.jpg

“We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded." -Barack Obama

Obama Calls For National Civilian Stasi
https://www.prisonplanet.com/obama-calls-for-national-civilian-stasi.html

British Kids Encouraged To Become "Climate Cops"
Full page adverts in weekend newspapers ask kids to rat on their friends and family in order to prevent "climate crimes"
https://infowars.net/articles/july2008/280708climatecops.htm

thewholetruth

08-03-2008, 04:27 AM

Despite choosing a rascist church to raise his daughters in for 20 years, and despite all the ridiculous, "sounds-good-from-here" idealistic blah-blah that has nothing to do with reality, and despite the fact that the man has no experience whatsoever which would qualify him as a viable candidate for President of the United State - despite all this and more, the fact that HE'S BLACK is the only reason stooges and fools are going to vote for Barrack HUSSEIN OBAMA. What a mockery the Enemy is making out of Americans right now, that he would even prop up a man with the words HUSSEIN and OBAMA in his name. Ultimately, I seriously doubt this idiot will win the election, although McCain isn't a viable alternative. But I suspect when the real America turns out at the polls, Hussein Obama will be making the traditional concession speech, accusing America of being racist.

America feels so bad about how black slaves were treated that they would even consider a man who is so unqualified speaks volumes about how far guilt goes, even when it's more than 7 generations removed.

The man's black. Yay. Try putting up a black man that is qualified to lead our country, not one who has ties and plans to work with terrorists.

The Obama campaign is ridiculous.

Fascist America, in 10 easy steps
by Naomi Wolf
https://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
2. Create a gulag
3. Develop a thug caste
4. Set up an internal surveillance system*
5. Harass citizens' groups
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
7. Target key individuals
8. Control the press
9. Dissent equals treason
10. Suspend the rule of law

*In Mussolini's Italy, in Nazi Germany, in communist East Germany, in communist China - in every closed society - secret police spy on ordinary people and encourage neighbours to spy on neighbours. This surveillance is cast as being about "national security"; the true function is to keep citizens docile and inhibit their activism and dissent.

https://freespeech.vo.llnwd.net/o25/pub/pp/images/july2008/170708obama.jpg

“We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded." -Barack Obama

Obama Calls For National Civilian Stasi
https://www.prisonplanet.com/obama-calls-for-national-civilian-stasi.html

British Kids Encouraged To Become "Climate Cops"
Full page adverts in weekend newspapers ask kids to rat on their friends and family in order to prevent "climate crimes"
https://infowars.net/articles/july2008/280708climatecops.htm

Zeno Swijtink

08-03-2008, 05:53 AM

Lenny

08-03-2008, 11:42 AM

Despite choosing a rascist church to raise his daughters in for 20 years, and despite all the ridiculous, "sounds-good-from-here" idealistic blah-blah that has nothing to do with reality, and despite the fact that the man has no experience whatsoever which would qualify him as a viable candidate for President of the United State - despite all this and more, the fact that HE'S BLACK is the only reason stooges and fools are going to vote for Barrack HUSSEIN OBAMA.

I don't agree that his church was racist, as in the sense I think you mean "hate whitey exclusively", or even "hate whitey". I know the media spun that preacher's stuff about hundred times an hour for weeks, and it did sound horrible, but on the whole, they did talk about race, unlike most places now, and while some race stuff is terrible, it wasn't the kind of "racism" we often think of when we hear that 1970's knee-jerk "racism" terminology. You are right in that most folks around here have never even "met" a black man and are voting out of "white guilt", and that is a wrong that can't be righted alone.
As for having no experience.....that's tough....I would like to think "Anyperson" could do that job, not simply one whose been in Washington for a thousand years. Yes, those with experience in dealing in and with power offer more, but that is a two edged sword.

What a mockery the Enemy is making out of Americans right now, that he would even prop up a man with the words HUSSEIN and OBAMA in his name. Ultimately, I seriously doubt this idiot will win the election, although McCain isn't a viable alternative. But I suspect when the real America turns out at the polls, Hussein Obama will be making the traditional concession speech, accusing America of being racist. America feels so bad about how black slaves were treated that they would even consider a man who is so unqualified speaks volumes about how far guilt goes, even when it's more than 7 generations removed. The man's black. Yay. Try putting up a black man that is qualified to lead our country, not one who has ties and plans to work with terrorists. The Obama campaign is ridiculous.

Again, we disagree: the Obama campaign, both he and his supporters, are dead serious, and I think he will be the next POTUS. But then it is hard for me to tell as I live here surrounded by folks that emanate thoughts and attitudes that he will win. Hard for me to know what America thinks.
That guilt has leaped over about five of those seven generations, so voting in this district is for Obama. I have to wonder about all those Prius', BMWs, Mercedes and other fancy cars sporting Obama stickers, don't they know his economic plans are to tax the snot out of those very same folks? He WILL tax the rich heavily, and that definition will begin with folks making over $40K per year. But then we don't put our hope in princes of the earth. But I also think our country is strong enough to survive this as well.

d-cat

08-14-2008, 03:31 PM

“We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded." -Barack Obama

Obama Calls For National Civilian Stasi
https://www.prisonplanet.com/obama-calls-for-national-civilian-stasi.html

British Kids Encouraged To Become "Climate Cops"
Full page adverts in weekend newspapers ask kids to rat on their friends and family in order to prevent "climate crimes"
https://infowars.net/articles/july2008/280708climatecops.htm

more info documenting our slide into world fascism...

Utility Workers Hired As Stasi Informants In Colorado, California, Arizona
https://www.prisonplanet.com/utility-workers-hired-as-stasi-informants-in-colorado-california-arizona.html

FBI Agents could soon be allowed to investigate Americans without any evidence of wrongdoing
https://www.newschannel10.com/Global/story.asp?S=8618595

Brussels (EU's D.C.) to open its own police stations in UK
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2265431/Brussels-to-open-its-own-police-stations-in-UK.html

Italy's plan to defuse uproar over fingerprinting of gypsy children: demand ALL citizens be fingerprinted
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1035696/Italys-plan-defuse-uproar-fingerprinting-gypsy-children-demand-ALL-citizens-fingerprinted.html

MsTerry

08-14-2008, 09:36 PM

d-cat

08-14-2008, 10:24 PM

When you vote for Obama, you are voting for this man

https://www.jonesreport.com/images/060207brez.jpg

Zbigniew Brzezinski, member of the CFR (who had Cheney as its director), co-founder (together with David Rockefeller) of the Trilateral Commission. Has son in McCain camp, and daughter is a propagandist on MSNBC. Obama is his protegé and he is Obama's foreign "advisor". Middle east war policies are his, which are outlined in his book The Grand Chessboard. In it he writes about letting Iraq fall apart through civil wars so that the US only needs to control the small strip of Iraq where the oil fields are. BTW the US is building a billion dollar embassy there the size of The Vatican. Think we're coming home anytime soon?

https://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060414/060414_embassy_hmed_3p.hlarge.jpg[/quote]

Lenny

08-15-2008, 05:34 AM

Zeno,
I wonder why you choose to out DonCee?
Even though he has been able to come up with unsupported arguments, he made it very clear WHY he wanted to stay, quasi anonymous. (his family pictures are now available to everyone, Why he posted them I don't know) Just because he regurgitates, that doesn't mean it is common knowledge.
How did you determine it was right wing Radio Talk?
Do you listen?

Now I know why Don held onto the manner of his thoughts and presentation: he is an artist!
Artists have a brain-wire that is "different", as we commonly know it. Actually, for an artist, he expressed himself rather well in this medium. I am pleasantly surprised! Flat words can be rather tedious and boring when one is used to having the complexities and subtleties of music swirling around them.
So, Z, why DID you out him? Just because? Or just because you could? Obviously he got to you! You could have done what Valley Oak enjoys and just have put him on your Ignore List for a cooling period. So, why? Are you a moderator and have access to our personal information that Barry gets from us when we sign up? If you are then Barry needs to kick you off. If you are not then how did you get his personal name? Respect is earned and you just lost mine. That is VERY unethical of you to do so. As a matter of fact it is, what we call in America, chicken shit.

d-cat

08-20-2008, 12:52 AM

Scientist Predicts Ice Age Within 10 Years
University of Mexico expert says lack of solar activity to cause significant cooling that will last over half a century
https://www.prisonplanet.com/scientist-predicts-ice-age-within-10-years.html

https://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/sn0w-dees.jpg

lynn

08-20-2008, 12:25 PM

d-cat

08-21-2008, 08:00 PM

Re:...Scientist Predicts Ice Age Within 10 Years
---------

Oh, Ya'...Was readin' about that the other day....

Gee, golly, whiz...Is everythin' gonna' burn ta' death, or freeze ta' death?...

No-one seems ta' know fer' sure...

and there's "scientific evidence" proving both sides :lol2:

Sometimes it's easier to just look into the people involved.
My alarm goes off whenever it's "wrong" to have a different view.
If we all have to have one view, who will point it out to us if it's wrong?! :):

Braggi

08-21-2008, 09:15 PM

When you vote for Obama, you are voting for this man
Zbigniew Brzezinski ...

I'm no fan of this guy, but if you don't vote for Obama, you're voting for all the criminals now plundering the tatters of the United States left by the Bush nightmare.

I'd say a vote for Obama is a whole lot better than a vote for McCain.

Wouldn't you?

-Jeff

MsTerry

08-22-2008, 11:58 AM

So this is what our Themockracy has come to?
We are urged to vote for the lesser evil?
When do we get too pick someone, who does belong in the white house?

I am wondering who would you choose if it was up to you?
Candidates don't have to be available, just WHO do you think belongs in the hot seat.
Your all time, any time favourite.

I'm no fan of this guy, but if you don't vote for Obama, you're voting for all the criminals now plundering the tatters of the United States left by the Bush nightmare.

I'd say a vote for Obama is a whole lot better than a vote for McCain.

Wouldn't you?

-Jeff

Mike Peterson

08-22-2008, 05:49 PM

If it was up to me, I would choose to replace our government institutions with proportional representation and a multi-part system. Europeans have an infinitely better system of government than the US, in large part because they are newer, better designed models. Some Countries' states, such as in Germany and Japan, were designed by Americans after WWII, who wrote their constitutions and their electoral process.

You got it right when you said that this is about choosing the lesser of two evils. But you can never allow yourself to forget the important fact that with our current method of electing officeholders (first-past-the-post and single member districts, etc) you can ONLY vote for the lesser of TWO evils. Also remember that we have a very undemocratic two-party system.

Just think of what it would be like if every time you went to the store or to buy a car or anything else, you only had two choices. This would make for a very poor market system and therefore, a very poor democracy because there are only two of anything. People make the mistake of believing that we actually have a choice because there is the Green Party, etc, but the truth is that we do not have a choice outside of the Republicratic Party or those 'two' parties.

In Europe, people have a true choice of many parties and there are several of them represented in the legislature of their countries. If 15% of the people vote for the Liberal Party (for example) then 15% of the seats in Congress or parliament will be held by Liberals and so on.

Mike

So this is what our Themockracy has come to?
We are urged to vote for the lesser evil?
When do we get too pick someone, who does belong in the white house?

I am wondering who would you choose if it was up to you?
Candidates don't have to be available, just WHO do you think belongs in the hot seat.
Your all time, any time favourite.

OrchardDweller

08-22-2008, 08:02 PM

If it was up to me, I would choose to replace our government institutions with proportional representation and a multi-part system. Europeans have an infinitely better system of government than the US, in large part because they are newer, better designed models. Some Countries' states, such as in Germany and Japan, were designed by Americans after WWII, who wrote their constitutions and their electoral process.

You got it right when you said that this is about choosing the lesser of two evils. But you can never allow yourself to forget the important fact that with our current method of electing officeholders (first-past-the-post and single member districts, etc) you can ONLY vote for the lesser of TWO evils. Also remember that we have a very undemocratic two-party system.

Just think of what it would be like if every time you went to the store or to buy a car or anything else, you only had two choices. This would make for a very poor market system and therefore, a very poor democracy because there are only two of anything. People make the mistake of believing that we actually have a choice because there is the Green Party, etc, but the truth is that we do not have a choice outside of the Republicratic Party or those 'two' parties.

In Europe, people have a true choice of many parties and there are several of them represented in the legislature of their countries. If 15% of the people vote for the Liberal Party (for example) then 15% of the seats in Congress or parliament will be held by Liberals and so on.

Mike

Europe has been taken over by the globalists. It is now the European Union, (with one currency; the Euro), despite the fact that the people of Europe voted against it.
Now they're working on the North American Union (and the Amero), which will be merged with the European Union, the African Union and the Asia-Pacific Union. I guess if you're gonna take over the world, it has to be run under one system.

OrchardDweller

08-22-2008, 08:13 PM

and there's "scientific evidence" proving both sides :lol2:

Sometimes it's easier to just look into the people involved.
My alarm goes off whenever it's "wrong" to have a different view.
If we all have to have one view, who will point it out to us if it's wrong?! :):

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/twogunkitten/190505COPS.jpg

Mike Peterson

08-22-2008, 09:16 PM

O.D., you've demonstrated a clear lack of information about Europe.

People in Europe have consistently voted in favor of and supported the European Union. Please offer concrete examples if you believe otherwise.

At this moment, and during the last eight years under Bush, Europeans have enjoyed superior democracies and public expression through their governments while in the US, Americans have suffered under a grossly undemocratic system and an aggressive, fundamentalist, reactionary administration. Quite a contrast.

The European Union is an astoundingly positive and constructive project. There is very little about it that is negative, if anything at all. Anti EU sentiment comes from right wing propaganda in the US because of the huge advantages it gives Europeans over the US. These advantages are in every aspect of society: economic, international diplomacy, quality of democracy and popular expression, and so on and so forth. Just one more example is the fact that Europeans already started to legalize gay marriage over ten years ago while it is still a hotly debated issue here in the States and is only legal in Massachusetts and semi legal in 'liberal' California.

The single currency, the Euro, is a tremendous leap forward and the vast majority of Europeans walking down the street support this. The countries against the Euro, such as Denmark, the UK, and very few others have not adopted the Euro.

It doesn't help to go around posting statements on BBs, such as Wacco, based on misinformation of the facts, propaganda, and interested biases.

Please do your homework.

Mike

Europe has been taken over by the globalists. It is now the European Union, (with one currency; the Euro), despite the fact that the people of Europe voted against it.
Now they're working on the North American Union (and the Amero), which will be merged with the European Union, the African Union and the Asia-Pacific Union. I guess if you're gonna take over the world, it has to be run under one system.

OrchardDweller

08-22-2008, 09:49 PM

MsTerry

08-22-2008, 09:57 PM

The single currency, the Euro, is a tremendous leap forward and the vast majority of Europeans walking down the street support this. The countries against the Euro, such as Denmark, the UK, and very few others have not adopted the Euro.

The people I have talked to say that the Euro has made their life more expensive.
Not a single person who doesn't convert the Euro to their old currency, trying to figure out if something is cheap or expensive.

Braggi

08-22-2008, 10:08 PM

So this is what our Themockracy has come to? ...

https://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=81940993

So this is what our Themockracy has come to?
We are urged to vote for the lesser evil? ...

Yup. That's what it is. Deal with it.

Dreamer.

[QUOTE=MsTerry;67368 ... I am wondering who would you choose if it was up to you?
Candidates don't have to be available, just WHO do you think belongs in the hot seat.
Your all time, any time favourite.

Me. Barry as President of Vice. No, Barry's too nice.

Maybe Dixon for President of Vice. And he'd have to pretend to be nasty.

Seriously, that's a very tough question.

Wavy Gravy says:
Nobody should be President.
Nobody is qualified.
Nobody deserves to have that much power.
Nobody should be able to spend that much of other people's money.
Vote for Nobody.

But that gets you nowhere.

Today I heard a man speaking on the radio. He was awesome. Young enough, rich, smart, articulate almost to the point of speaking poetically, powerful ... the radio host asked why he wasn't running for President.

He replied that he thought about it, but he knew people would be asking about what he smoked when he was 18 and he wasn't ready to open his life up to that kind of public scrutiny. So there you have it.

Probably the 100 most qualified people to be President feel the same way. And this isn't about them. This is about how petty, self centered, self absorbed, "other" phobic, infantile, uneducated, misguided, and corrupted by Christianity (read: Churchianity) the majority of the electorate is in this country.

It's a sad statement.

-Jeff

Braggi

08-22-2008, 10:31 PM

... Now they're working on the North American Union (and the Amero), which will be merged with the European Union, the African Union and the Asia-Pacific Union. I guess if you're gonna take over the world, it has to be run under one system.

Can you give some facts on this other than youtube videos by people we've never heard of. I did a search on the Amero and came up with practically nothing.

-Jeff

Braggi

08-22-2008, 10:56 PM

The people I have talked to say that the Euro has made their life more expensive.
Not a single person who doesn't convert the Euro to their old currency, trying to figure out if something is cheap or expensive.

Ever try proofreading MsTerry? Read it out loud to yourself. That helps me sometimes.

We just spent three weeks in Paris. I'll tell you that EVERYTHING is expensive there and not just because the dollar's weak. Food, clothes (and what a lot of cheap junk in their stores!), medicines ... fuel ... everything. And they have little choice about what they buy and where they buy it. There are few brands. Go to a store and you'll find one or two brands of a given item where there would be a dozen in the US. Few stores there carry as wide a variety of items as a gas station "convenience" store does here.

Pat tried to buy some ibuprofen for pain. She was directed to the Pharmacie (which is a separate store-no drugs in a grocery or department store). The only choice she was offered was a 20 pack of Advil for about $5 (equivalent). When those were gone, she tried again, and this time asked for generic. She was sold another 20 pack, generics this time, for exactly the same price. Here we could do to the Dollar Tree and get 100 for a dollar.

Packages of everything in the stores are smaller. Eggs come in half dozens, meat in small packs mostly under a pound. These people are used to getting by on less and paying more for it. It's no bargain to be in Paris and the outlying towns seemed to be in the same price ranges. The only "discount" stores sell crap merchandise - far worse than our typical "dollar store." And I couldn't find a damn home improvement or hardware store for anything. I don't know how they fix anything there.

We are very spoiled here by all the choices we have. We are very spoiled by the low prices we still have, despite the weak dollar. It's no wonder people in other places envy us. It's no wonder we're fat. That's a fact I noticed immediately when we got to Philadelphia to change planes. Americans are fat. Most of us are. Most of the French are not fat. They can't afford to eat that much.

So there's my comparison of the dollar and the Euro. I'd rather we stick to the dollar.

-Jeff

PS. The Pharmacie offers numerous "minceur" products. Minceur means "thinness." Used as a verb it means "to lose weight" or "to be fit" if we understood it correctly. They didn't need these products in our opinion.

MsTerry

08-23-2008, 08:28 AM

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> MsTerry wrote: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/orangebuttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?p=67414#post67414)
The people I have talked to say that the Euro has made their life more expensive.
Not a single person who doesn't convert the Euro to their old currency, trying to figure out if something is cheap or expensive.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Ever try proofreading MsTerry? Read it out loud to yourself. That helps me sometimes.

Yes,I do, but Icon fess not alll the time (check post #137LOL)

I can see how my statement is confusing to you. What i meant to say is that Europeans are still converting the Euro to their old currency. Read it again

Mike Peterson

08-23-2008, 08:51 AM

I have no way of confirming whether or not you are indeed a European. Nonetheless, you are as poorly informed as an American.

Please do your homework.

By the way, only the extreme right (which you are) and the extreme left (some Communists, etc) are against the EU. Almost everyone else in Europe supports it.

Mike

LOL I'm European.

Braggi

08-23-2008, 10:44 AM

Yes,I do, but Icon fess not alll the time (check post #137LOL)

I can see how my statement is confusing to you. What i meant to say is that Europeans are still converting the Euro to their old currency. Read it again

Well, not in France. They are fully engaged in the Euro. Never heard "Franc" mentioned the whole time we were there. They don't need to convert to see if something is expensive. It is. We found very few bargains there. Even the world famous ""Le marché aux puces" (flea market) was mostly filled with expensive Asian imported junk. Only a few vendors sell anything used and most of them are high end antique dealers with stratospheric prices. We did find a few inexpensive treasures but they were few and far between.

I found one grocery store where packaged coffee was very cheap; only about half what I usually pay here. Not sure why. Other stores were more expensive and coffee in the famous sidewalk cafes is always more expensive than in the US.

Did I mention their wine is expensive and mostly not very good? We are richly blessed here in Sonoma County.

-Jeff

Valley Oak

08-23-2008, 03:09 PM

Hello Ms. Terry, I hope you've been well this summer.

Regarding Europeans and their Euro, when I traveled there last year for five weeks with my family, most people (in Spain at least) were not converting back to their old monetary unit to know how much something costs. Sure, some people do that but not most folks. For some, old, bad habits die hard. As time goes by, however, since the year that they incorporated the new coin, the old conversions will become more and more meaningless. By the end of a decade from the transition, no one will be doing that because the economic fluctuations, inflation, and distant memory of an old, vanquished standard will completely do away with that practice by a few.

But this business about people converting back to their country's old standard is a non-issue. I think this talk (here on Wacco) has more to do with the fact that prices have indeed increased with the Euro and more so in the 'poorer' nations such as Spain, as opposed to the wealthier economies such as the UK, Germany, France, etc. (Actually, Spain is doing better than ever, despite the recent slump, with the exception of its old Empire days in the 16th and 17th centuries).

Great things require a great price, normally. And Europe's transition to the Euro is an expensive investment with huge, even incalculable, returns. As one real estate investor used to explain to his students (of which I was one): "When a homeowner has to spend $4,000 or more updating their electrical installation, their reaction is, "Ouch!" But this investment will raise the property value and come back to the owner in a larger sum when the property is sold in the future."

In any case, I'm very curious to know why folks on this board find the Euro so threatening? I'm really, really surprised. What is it, in essence, that has some of you so irked about the Euro? Why do you have to attack it so virulently? Please, someone explain it to me. I would really like to know.

Thanks,

Edward

   
Yes,I do, but Icon fess not alll the time (check post #137LOL)

I can see how my statement is confusing to you. What i meant to say is that Europeans are still converting the Euro to their old currency. Read it again

BizWrangler

08-23-2008, 10:11 PM

I've been to France five times, and attended a wedding in the South West, stayed for five weeks, and have an apartment in a typical residental neighborhood in Paris I rent while there. There are reasons for some of the differences.

Space is at a premium in Paris, apartments are usually quite small and kitchens tiny. Many buildings are old and do not have elevators, so one has to carry their food/purchases up flights of stairs. One usually has their main meal at lunch, and eats that at a fix price menu inexpensively at the local brasserie. There is little storage in kitchens/apartments. One does not buy much food at a time, so packages are smaller to allow for these considerations of lack of storage (tiny refrig) , carrying up flights of stairs and dinner usually being more of a snack then full meal. So one usually only buys for one or two days at a time, and eats less, however they usually get high quality items that cost more. They practice portion control.

I was able to have lunch at UNESCO with a friend who works there, and they have a full dining room with fantastic choices very affordable meals. I don't know how common it is for large organizations to have their own cafeterias, but I do suspect the tourist will never see these places. There are lots of places in Paris to eat affordably if you know where to go. It's that true for most large citites once you get out of the tourist areas? I know large stores where one can buy groceries in Paris for reasonable prices.

They are slim due to the portion control and also all the walking and stair climbing. Not many drive in town, so they take the Metro, and if you've been in the Metro you know you have to climb up and down stairs when going in and out or switching lines. I always lose weight and get in better shape when I'm visiting! Plus, if you had to haul your meals up and purchases up flights of stairs everyday, you'd shop and eat differently, too. So the food you buy in Paris that is pre-packaged does have smaller portions, however you can buy from an open market and specify how much you want, too.

As in any big city, the tourist traps are for tourists, and the locals don't go to Le Marche aux Puces, but instead to one of the lesser known on the outskirts of town in other areas such as the one on Saturdays at Porte des Vanves where I found fantastic bargains. I didn't see many tourists there. The locals know where to go shop for bargains and when. They don't drive big SUVs and head for Costco to fill up for three months of toilet paper! I doubt many of us head to downtown Healdsburg to do our shopping, either, however the tourists staying in the lovely hotels there wouldn't be able to find a home improvement center, either. They do exist, but not where the tourists congregate.

Les Marche aux Puces in the north of Paris has many markets withing the one large market. They specialize in various things - some are definitely high end, however I found others where I located quite a few inexpensive but lovely items. You may have missed those among all the cheap Chinese crap in some of the others. It is a large area, so you may have missed the ones that do sell second hand flea market kind of things. I got a lovely brass door knocker for $8 which is now on my front door, and a vingage post card of my favorite place in Paris for less than $1.

If you want a cheap cafe in a cafe, do like the locals do...stand at the bar. It is always more expensive if you sit at a table. Table sitting is also for people watching and getting waited on....so you do pay more, but you don't have to. I've had fantastic wine in France, and for $3 a bottle. You can buy yuckie wine here too if you don't know what you are doing. Good champagne was more affordable, too. Perhaps you just didn't know where to shop. Any big city has it's pricey places and those that are cheap, too. Yes, Paris is pricey, but if you know what you are doing you can avoid those places and live on the cheap.

Next time, take me and I'll show you! OOOOh la la!!!

Well, not in France. They are fully engaged in the Euro. Never heard "Franc" mentioned the whole time we were there. They don't need to convert to see if something is expensive. It is. We found very few bargains there. Even the world famous ""Le marché aux puces" (flea market) was mostly filled with expensive Asian imported junk. Only a few vendors sell anything used and most of them are high end antique dealers with stratospheric prices. We did find a few inexpensive treasures but they were few and far between.

I found one grocery store where packaged coffee was very cheap; only about half what I usually pay here. Not sure why. Other stores were more expensive and coffee in the famous sidewalk cafes is always more expensive than in the US.

Did I mention their wine is expensive and mostly not very good? We are richly blessed here in Sonoma County.

-Jeff

d-cat

08-23-2008, 10:32 PM

d-cat

08-23-2008, 10:49 PM

Europe has been taken over by the globalists. It is now the European Union, (with one currency; the Euro), despite the fact that the people of Europe voted against it.
Now they're working on the North American Union (and the Amero), which will be merged with the European Union, the African Union and the Asia-Pacific Union. I guess if you're gonna take over the world, it has to be run under one system.

You're absolutely right.

Lisbon vote result is not hampering EU, report suggests
https://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2008/0808/1218125658433.html

Foreign Secretary David Miliband says the UK must ratify the EU Treaty despite its rejection by Irish voters
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7453084.stm

Nicolas Sarkozy is accused of blackmail over EU Treaty
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2172114/Sarkozy-is-accused-of--blackmail-over-EU-Treaty.html

I know people over there who are waking up to it as well. The EU started as economic integration and ended up as political integration. At least you guys got to vote (as if it matters). In the US, it's all being done by stealth.

MsTerry

08-24-2008, 08:01 AM

Hey Eduardo,

Next time you or your wife call Spain, can you ask the family over there if they like the Euro? if things are more expensive now? or better?
I am curious now

Thanks
MsT

Hello Ms. Terry, I hope you've been well this summer.

Regarding Europeans and their Euro, when I traveled there last year for five weeks with my family, most people (in Spain at least) were not converting back to their old monetary unit to know how much something costs. Sure, some people do that but not most folks. For some, old, bad habits die hard. As time goes by, however, since the year that they incorporated the new coin, the old conversions will become more and more meaningless. By the end of a decade from the transition, no one will be doing that because the economic fluctuations, inflation, and distant memory of an old, vanquished standard will completely do away with that practice by a few.

But this business about people converting back to their country's old standard is a non-issue. I think this talk (here on Wacco) has more to do with the fact that prices have indeed increased with the Euro and more so in the 'poorer' nations such as Spain, as opposed to the wealthier economies such as the UK, Germany, France, etc. (Actually, Spain is doing better than ever, despite the recent slump, with the exception of its old Empire days in the 16th and 17th centuries).

Great things require a great price, normally. And Europe's transition to the Euro is an expensive investment with huge, even incalculable, returns. As one real estate investor used to explain to his students (of which I was one): "When a homeowner has to spend $4,000 or more updating their electrical installation, their reaction is, "Ouch!" But this investment will raise the property value and come back to the owner in a larger sum when the property is sold in the future."

In any case, I'm very curious to know why folks on this board find the Euro so threatening? I'm really, really surprised. What is it, in essence, that has some of you so irked about the Euro? Why do you have to attack it so virulently? Please, someone explain it to me. I would really like to know.

Thanks,

Edward

d-cat

08-24-2008, 09:36 AM

https://infowars.net/pictures/june2008/270608EU.jpg

EU Constitution author says referendums can be ignored

The former President of France drafted the old Constitution that was rejected by French and Dutch voters three years ago before being resurrected as the Lisbon EU Treaty, itself shunned by the Irish two weeks ago.

Mr Giscard d'Estaing told the Irish Times that Ireland's referendum rejection would not kill the Treaty, despite a legal requirement of unanimity from all the EU's 27 member states.

"We are evolving towards majority voting because if we stay with unanimity, we will do nothing," he said...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2200026/EU-Constitution-author-says-referendums-can-be-ignored.html

Taking over countries against their will. Like the Soviet Union.

Valley Oak

08-24-2008, 05:57 PM

I know the answer already since we were there last year:

Yes, things are more expensive but worth it over the long run.

For some reason, the less wealthy nations, such as Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Greece, etc, are experiencing more of the brunt than the wealthier countries, such as Germany, France, UK, etc. Some states have not accepted the Euro, such as Denmark, the UK, and 1 or 2, maybe three others. The newest member states (mostly from Eastern Europe) don't have the Euro yet because their membership is being realized in stages and not all at once. Another aspect of the graduated membership of the former Communist countries is that their workforces will not be able to move freely through the EU until the last stages of full membership (figures).

My wife's family and Spaniards in general don't, as a rule, use the old Spanish 'Peseta' to translate on a daily basis. They might do this occasionally as a forethought or perhaps for something that is very expensive in order to give them another point of view on their investment or expense. In any case, this practice of converting back to the Peseta in their own head is not a daily ritual as some posters here seem to assert. And it is a doomed practice because as the years go by, that old reference will become more remote, obsolete, and inaccurate.

On another question, one that I asked the board here, I think that people's negative reaction to the Euro has several reasons. The most important one is fear that the EU will best the U.S. (it already has) in economic concerns. Eventually, this will extend to diplomacy, international affairs, security, politics in general, etc, until every important aspect of the function of a superstate (which the EU is, by the way) has clearly surpassed the US.

This is actually quite serious because right now the US is still KING (the world empire) and the incipient roles of world leader that the EU is polishing and growing are beginning to challenge the until now undisputed status of the US. If you think about this, then it becomes clearer why there is so much fear of the EU here in the States, especially among conservatives, reactionaries, Republicans, and those who consider themselves to be ultra patriotic.

Within the next ten to twenty years, the US will have to make do with being a partner with the future EU regarding world affairs. There is nothing Americans can do to avoid this from happening short of nuking the entire European continent, something that I wouldn't put past some folks (a minority, of course) in this country.

In any case, it's also interesting to see how different the dialog is here about the EU than it is among Europeans. The debates taking place here on the 'liberal' Wacco forum clearly indicate coming from positions of fear and angst while Europeans are debating how far integration should go.

This sheds light on some of the attitudes here (in the US and Wacco) that mistakenly believe that most Europeans are against the EU. Nothing could be further from the truth. The votes against potential new EU treaties are in regards to its expansion and reformation, NOT on the EU itself, which is what people in this forum are saying.

If you read up on the history of the EU (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eu and not bogus, bigoted, and biased sources that most people here use), you'll see how many treaties have been voted on, in favor and against. The EU started as an agreement of economic cooperation between 6 European countries to help them rebuild after the destruction of WWII (which ended in 1945). But this agreement was so unexpectedly successful that in 1957, the Treaty of Rome was signed without protest from anyone, whereas the European Economic Community was born. After the Treaty of Rome, there have been a series of aggressive and ambitious expansions of what was then the EEC. Some were so extensive that they were rejected outright. While the other expansions that took baby steps were normally supported and approved.

What is now called the "European Union" was created in 1993 with the approval of the Maastricht Treaty. There was opposition, of course, but it went through because although it was ambitious, it was not unreasonable. Everything is a negotiation and the expansion and integration of Europe is no exception. It is a colossal project and moves more slowly than an elephant and more difficult to train.

When the Lisbon Treaty was rejected recently by the Irish, it had to do with saying 'NO' to a European Constitution, much like that of the United States in the sense of national integrity (legal and political, not esoteric). But this was a vote against further expansion and integration, not against the general concept of the EU itself as a whole. This is what Americans don't understand, an attitude well reflected here on Wacco. The Irish themselves, just like everyone else who is a member, accept and appreciate the EU. The Irish have never seen such wealth, growth, and happiness in their millennia long history.

Hope this answers your questions and a few others as well.

Edward

Hey Eduardo,

Next time you or your wife call Spain, can you ask the family over there if they like the Euro? if things are more expensive now? or better?
I am curious now

Thanks
MsT

Zeno Swijtink

08-24-2008, 06:17 PM

I though this clipping about the rats leaving the ship was kind of a fun follow-up to Edward's excellent post. - Zeno

*****

Criminals Dumping Weak US Dollar for Euro (https://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gb6nxWTRBhk5K9Xe8wIZ1ON_aMfQ)
Agence France-Presse (France)
OTTAWA -- The weakened US dollar has fallen out of favor with organized crime groups to pay for drug shipments or to settle scores, a Canadian government report said Friday.

And if the greenback continues its slide in 2008, as expected, more and more criminals are likely to exchange euros for illicit goods, said Criminal Intelligence Service Canada in its annual report.

"The US dollar weakened significantly against other major currencies in 2007 and according to some economists, is expected to depreciate further in 2008," said the report.

"As a consequence, other currencies -- particularly the euro -- are poised to weaken the US dollar's dominance as the currency of choice for international remittances and payments," it said.

"This trend could also drive an increase in observed instances of bulk-cash transfers denominated in currencies other than Canadian and US dollars," the report added.

Organized criminal groups, topping 900 in Canada, are primarily focused on the illicit drug trade, but have also expanded into credit card fraud, organ trafficking, identity theft and even illegal logging of Canada's vast forests, said the report.

"The illicit drug market remains the largest criminal market in terms of extent, scope, and the degree of involvement by the majority of organized crime groups," many of them operating across international borders, it said.

Marijuana remains one of the most trafficked illicit drugs in Canada, and crops harvested here supply much of Canada and the United States.

Methamphetamine production in Canada, meanwhile, has risen to meet expanding international demand with several "super labs" set up for foreign distribution of late.

As well, Canada, the Netherlands and Belgium are now the primary source of ecstasy to the world, said the report.

Canadian forests, representing one tenth of the world's forested area, are vulnerable to illegal harvesting "due to their relative abundance, isolation, and the large number of logging access roads," it explained.

Braggi

08-28-2008, 08:08 AM

Look at what those wacky scientists are up to now!

Can you believe the efforts that crowd will go to? I wonder if they're all up there holding the snow in their hands to melt it? No doubt it's all about that nefarious agenda ... what was that agenda?

-Jeff

Arctic ice 'is at tipping point'

By Richard Black
Environment correspondent, BBC News website

Arctic sea ice has shrunk to the second smallest extent since satellite records began, US scientists have revealed.
The National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC) says that the ice-covered area has fallen below its 2005 level, which was the second lowest on record.
Melting has occurred earlier in the year than usual, meaning that the iced area could become even smaller than last September, the lowest recorded.
Researchers say the Arctic is now at a climatic "tipping point".
"We could very well be in that quick slide downwards in terms of passing a tipping point," said Mark Serreze, a senior scientist at the Colorado-based NSIDC.
"It's tipping now. We're seeing it happen now," he told the Associated Press news agency.
Under covered
The area covered by ice on 26 August measured 5.26 million sq km (2.03 million sq miles), just below the 2005 low of 5.32 million sq km (2.05 million sq).
But the 2005 low came in late September; and with the 2008 graph pointing downwards, the NSIDC team believes last year's record could still be broken even though air temperatures, both in the Arctic and globally, have been lower than last year.
Last September, the ice covered just 4.13 million sq km (1.59 million sq miles), the smallest extent seen since satellite imaging began 30 years ago. The 1980 figure was 7.8 million sq km (3 million sq miles).

The 2008 graph shows a steeper decline than at the same time last year

Most of the cover consists of relatively thin ice that formed within a single winter and melts more easily than ice that accumulated over many years.
Irrespective of whether the 2007 record falls in the next few weeks, the long-term trend is obvious, scientists said; the ice is declining more sharply than even a decade ago, and the Arctic region will progressively turn to open water in summers.
A few years ago, scientists were predicting ice-free Arctic summers by about 2080.
Then computer models started projecting earlier dates, around 2030 to 2050; and some researchers now believe it could happen within five years. ... (follow the link to read the rest of the article)

https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7585645.stm

d-cat

09-01-2008, 12:50 AM

Decade has had fewest 90-degree days since 1930
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-tom-skilling-explainer-13aug13,0,918946.story

2008 Coolest For At Least Five Years
Man-made climate change advocates scramble to explain away failure of global warming to appear as ordered
https://www.prisonplanet.com/2008-coolest-for-at-least-five-years.html

Spotless days: 400 and counting
https://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/spotless-days-400-and-counting/

Experimental Link Found Between Sun and Climate
https://www.dailytech.com/Experimental+Link+Found+Between+Sun+and+Climate/article12804.htm

British families pay almost £800 per year in 'dishonest' green taxes
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1050098/800-year-dishonest-green-taxes.html

Braggi

09-01-2008, 11:09 AM

I've been to France five times ... One usually has their main meal at lunch, and eats that at a fix price menu inexpensively at the local brasserie. ... They practice portion control. ... I know large stores where one can buy groceries in Paris for reasonable prices. ... They are slim due to the portion control and also all the walking and stair climbing. ... you can buy from an open market and specify how much you want, too. ... As in any big city, the tourist traps are for tourists, and the locals don't go to Le Marche aux Puces, but instead to one of the lesser known on the outskirts of town in other areas such as the one on Saturdays at Porte des Vanves where I found fantastic bargains. I didn't see many tourists there. ... They don't drive big SUVs and head for Costco to fill up for three months of toilet paper! I doubt many of us head to downtown Healdsburg to do our shopping, either, however the tourists staying in the lovely hotels there wouldn't be able to find a home improvement center, either. They do exist, but not where the tourists congregate.

Les Marche aux Puces in the north of Paris has many markets withing the one large market. ... I got a lovely brass door knocker for $8 which is now on my front door, and a vingage post card of my favorite place in Paris for less than $1.

If you want a cheap cafe in a cafe, do like the locals do...stand at the bar. It is always more expensive if you sit at a table. ... I've had fantastic wine in France, and for $3 a bottle. You can buy yuckie wine here too if you don't know what you are doing. Good champagne was more affordable, too. Perhaps you just didn't know where to shop. ...
Next time, take me and I'll show you! OOOOh la la!!!

About the only thing you are right about, regarding us, is that we shop in Healdsburg. i guess you didn't exactly say that, but I know where the bargains are in Healdsburg and I know of several home improvement centers any tourist could find by looking in the phone book or by asking any merchant. These methods failed in Paris.

We were in Paris three weeks and we did our homework. We followed the advice of several locals and various guidebooks in our search for bargains. We didn't follow the path of the typical tourist. We knew what we were doing. BTW, good French champagne is cheaper here in Costco or any discount liquor store than anywhere in Paris proper; and I mean in "units" that is, fewer dollars per bottle here than Euros there. I don't know how they can afford to do that either. We spent well over $50 for a bottle of bubbly we could have had for $35 in Costco. The prices were within one half Euro every place we looked. No doubt there is a discount wine "cave" somewhere in Paris. We didn't see any though we checked out many stores from sleazy hole-in-the-wall types to Le Bon Marché. Although prices in store windows are often posted, the notion of a "sale" on wine didn't appear to exist. Because of the time of year, most of the clothing stores had big sales going on. However, even at 70% off, French clothing is no bargain. An awful lot of it is just plain weird looking. I guess i just have to face it, I'm a cheapskate and I have no taste in clothes. Beautiful and well dressed women Paris has in abundance. I don't know where they get their clothes.

French wine sucks. I bought numerous bottles both red and white. We bought cheap and expensive, from "take a chance" grab and buy to getting advice from experts. I don't think we had any, save some of that very expensive champagne, that wasn't bested by mid price (sub $20) wine from California. Two Buck Chuck was better than most of what we had. No, I'm no expert at buying French wine, but I do have an educated palate for California wine. I'll give it to them that they have their own tastes they are striving for, but this California boy thinks their grapes just aren't as good as ours. Some of the best wine we had was rosé, curiously enough. I'm usually not big on rosé. I'm willing to learn more.

About standing at a bar in order to get a bargain lunch, well, after spending all day walking, it's certainly worth paying a few extra bucks to sit down. I have no problem with that. However, even if you stand, you're still going to pay at least $10 for a very minimal lunch that is likely to leave you hungry. And don't buy a coffee with that. A tiny cup will set you back two and a half to four Euros and there's no such thing as a free refill on anything in Paris. (I did learn to order "cafe long" which was described on one menu as "more water than coffee." That's how you get a big cup for the same price as an espresso.) The facts are clear: everything costs more in Paris. A lot more. There are few bargains.

I did mention in my original post that I found a few inexpensive treasures at the flea market, just as you mentioned. So ... we agree? Most items are cheap crap at inflated prices or very expensive antiques. There is an occasional bargain, but this is not the Paris flea market of 20 years ago when most of the sellers sold out of the trunk of a car and it was all used household items. Those days are gone just as they are at many of the US flea markets (Sebastopol being a notable exception).

OK, bottom line: I had a great time in Paris. I knew going in things were going to be expensive and Paris lived up to that expectation big time. We budgeted for all that so it wasn't a big disappointment. My comments here relate mostly to the fact that the benefits of the Euro do not appear to be trickling down to the street level. I'm sure things are a lot easier for governments and international bankers, but there seem to be few advantages for the common person except that you don't have to exchange your money when you travel from country to country.

The people in Paris have, generally speaking, a much lower standard of living than people in the US. Seeing all the people with missing teeth will tell you that. Beggars are everywhere as are people sleeping and "relieving" themselves in the street. The notion portrayed in "Sicko" that French health care is so much better than in the US is not evident as there were people everywhere walking around with a single "Canadian" crutch for some reason. My guess is that this somehow identifies them as disabled and gets them additional government benefits.

If "globalization" brings us the standard of living now available in Paris, I'm not going to welcome it.

-Jeff

Valley Oak

09-01-2008, 11:54 AM

I can't speak for France but I lived in Spain for 6.5 years and I can speak from my experience of having lived in that country. The wine that I bought and drank in Spain was cheaper and better quality, on average, than the wine here in the States in general or California in particular. It was a huge disappointment for my wife, who is a Spanish citizen, and myself when we came to the States in 1996 (returning for me; I'm a US citizen, born and raised). Wine had always been a part of our lunch and dinner table in Spain and the vast majority of the time here in the US we have to eat without wine because it's too expensive or because the affordable stuff is too disgusting.

Edward

About the only thing you are right about, regarding us, is that we shop in Healdsburg. i guess you didn't exactly say that, but I know where the bargains are in Healdsburg and I know of several home improvement centers any tourist could find by looking in the phone book or by asking any merchant. These methods failed in Paris.

We were in Paris three weeks and we did our homework. We followed the advice of several locals and various guidebooks in our search for bargains. We didn't follow the path of the typical tourist. We knew what we were doing. BTW, good French champagne is cheaper here in Costco or any discount liquor store than anywhere in Paris proper; and I mean in "units" that is, fewer dollars per bottle here than Euros there. I don't know how they can afford to do that either. No doubt there is a discount wine "cave" somewhere in Paris. We didn't see any though we checked out many stores from sleazy hole-in-the-wall types to Le Bon Marché. Although prices in store windows are often posted, the notion of a "sale" on wine didn't appear to exist. Because of the time of year, most of the clothing stores had big sales going on. However, even at 70% off, French clothing is no bargain. An awful lot of it is just plain weird looking. I guess i just have to face it, I'm a cheapskate and I have no taste in clothes. Beautiful and well dressed women Paris has in abundance. I don't know where they get their clothes.

French wine sucks. I bought numerous bottles both red and white. We bought cheap and expensive, from "take a chance" grab and buy to getting advice from experts. I don't think we had any, save some of that very expensive champagne, that wasn't bested by mid price (sub $20) wine from California. Two Buck Chuck was better than most of what we had. No, I'm no expert at buying French wine, but I do have an educated palate for California wine. I'll give it to them that they have their own tastes they are striving for, but this California boy thinks their grapes just aren't as good as ours. Some of the best wine we had was rosé, curiously enough. I'm usually not big on rosé. I'm willing to learn more.

About standing at a bar in order to get a bargain lunch, well, after spending all day walking, it's certainly worth paying a few extra bucks to sit down. I have no problem with that. However, even if you stand, you're still going to pay at least $10 for a very minimal lunch that is likely to leave you hungry. And don't buy a coffee with that. A tiny cup will set you back two and a half to four Euros and there's no such thing as a free refill on anything in Paris. (I did learn to order "cafe long" which was described on one menu as "more water than coffee." That's how you get a big cup for the same price as an espresso.) The facts are clear: everything costs more in Paris. A lot more. There are few bargains.

I did mention in my original post that I found a few inexpensive treasures at the flea market, just as you mentioned. So ... we agree? Most items are cheap crap at inflated prices or very expensive antiques. There is an occasional bargain, but this is not the Paris flea market of 20 years ago when most of the sellers sold out of the trunk of a car and it was all used household items. Those days are gone just as they are at many of the US flea markets (Sebastopol being a notable exception).

OK, bottom line: I had a great time in Paris. I knew going in things were going to be expensive and Paris lived up to that expectation big time. We budgeted for all that so it wasn't a big disappointment. My comments here relate mostly to the fact that the benefits of the Euro do not appear to be trickling down to the street level. I'm sure things are a lot easier for governments and international bankers, but there seem to be few advantages for the common person except that you don't have to exchange your money when you travel from country to country.

The people in Paris have, generally speaking, a much lower standard of living than people in the US. Seeing all the people with missing teeth and ragged clothes will tell you that. Beggars are everywhere as are people sleeping and "relieving" themselves in the street. The notion portrayed in "Sicko" that French health care is so much better than in the US is not evident as there were people everywhere walking around with a single "Canadian" crutch for some reason. My guess is that this somehow identifies them as disabled and gets them additional government benefits.

If "globalization" brings us the standard of living now available in Paris, I'm not going to welcome it.

-Jeff

OrchardDweller

09-04-2008, 07:24 AM

EU Throwing Habeas Corpus Out The Window
https://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article4664049.ece

The US has already done this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9Ig2ob_8es

and they lie to us about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIFqYVAOosM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGhcECnWRGM

oh, and btw:

'Snowfall' shocks Kenyan village
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7596134.stm

Braggi

09-04-2008, 09:11 AM

[b]EU Throwing Habeas Corpus Out The Window ...

Aha! There goes that Al Gore again and his Agenda! Now you have him.

... 'Snowfall' shocks Kenyan village
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7596134.stm

Did you actually read the article? It wasn't snow nor was it unprecedented.

Try this: https://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=aAouw4NZSHH4&refer=canada

and this:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/09/04/eaice104.xml

-Jeff

OrchardDweller

09-04-2008, 10:35 AM

Aha! There goes that Al Gore again and his Agenda! Now you have him.

Did you actually read the article? It wasn't snow nor was it unprecedented.

Try this: https://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=aAouw4NZSHH4&refer=canada

and this:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/09/04/eaice104.xml

-Jeff

I posted an article using the name of the article. So who are you talking to? The BBC?

They do not say it was snow or that it was unprecedented and neither did I. It says "Residents of a village in central Kenya were shocked to see a blanket of hail resembling snow covering their land." You're making things up in your head. You seem to be arguing with your own imagination.

If you wanna believe global climate change is man-made, go ahead. I've read their plans to use it on people like you.

lynn

09-04-2008, 07:07 PM

Boy, that is depressing about 'Habeas Corpus'....

OrchardDweller

09-05-2008, 10:23 PM

Boy, that is depressing about 'Habeas Corpus'....

What's even more depressing to me is that nobody seems to care. Or even know what it is!

OrchardDweller

09-05-2008, 10:29 PM

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/twogunkitten/190505COPS.jpg

https://www.redicecreations.com/winterwonderland/babylonEU5.jpg
EU poster

One Voice = Tyranny
Many Voices = Liberty + Progress

The Philosophy of Liberty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I

Braggi

09-05-2008, 11:53 PM

I posted an article using the name of the article. So who are you talking to? The BBC?

They do not say it was snow or that it was unprecedented and neither did I. It says "Residents of a village in central Kenya were shocked to see a blanket of hail resembling snow covering their land." You're making things up in your head. You seem to be arguing with your own imagination.

If you wanna believe global climate change is man-made, go ahead. I've read their plans to use it on people like you.

So why so defensive? You're being a bit of a jerk here OrchardDweller.

I just pointed out some facts and asked if you'd actually read the article.

Perhaps you could share with us what the plan is for "people like me."

-Jeff

beatricepenelope

09-06-2008, 12:53 AM

I love you.

handy

09-06-2008, 10:26 AM

from the BBC:

https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7599810.stm

he Environment Minister Sammy Wilson has angered green campaigners by describing their view on climate change as a "hysterical psuedo-religion".
In an article in the News Letter, Mr Wilson said he believed it occurred naturally and was not man-made.
"Resources should be used to adapt to the consequences of climate change, rather than King Canute-style vainly trying to stop it," said the minister.
Peter Doran of the Green Party said it was a "deeply irresponsible message."
Mr Wilson said he refused to "blindly accept" the need to make significant changes to the economy to stop climate change.
"The tactic used by the "green gang" is to label anyone who dares disagree with their view of climate change as some kind of nutcase who denies scientific fact," he said.
The minister said he accepted climate change can occur, but does not believe the cause has been identified.
"Reasoned debate must replace the scaremongering of the green climate alarmists."
John Woods of Friends of the Earth said Mr Wilson was "like a cigarette salesman denying that smoking causes cancer".
"Ironically, if we listen to him Northern Ireland will suffer economically as we are left behind by smarter regions who are embracing the low carbon economy of the future."
It is the latest clash between Mr Wilson and green groups since his appointment as environment minister in June.
he Environment Minister Sammy Wilson has angered green campaigners by describing their view on climate change as a "hysterical psuedo-religion".
In an article in the News Letter, Mr Wilson said he believed it occurred naturally and was not man-made.
"Resources should be used to adapt to the consequences of climate change, rather than King Canute-style vainly trying to stop it," said the minister.
Peter Doran of the Green Party said it was a "deeply irresponsible message."
Mr Wilson said he refused to "blindly accept" the need to make significant changes to the economy to stop climate change.
"The tactic used by the "green gang" is to label anyone who dares disagree with their view of climate change as some kind of nutcase who denies scientific fact," he said.
The minister said he accepted climate change can occur, but does not believe the cause has been identified.
"Reasoned debate must replace the scaremongering of the green climate alarmists."
John Woods of Friends of the Earth said Mr Wilson was "like a cigarette salesman denying that smoking causes cancer".
"Ironically, if we listen to him Northern Ireland will suffer economically as we are left behind by smarter regions who are embracing the low carbon economy of the future."
It is the latest clash between Mr Wilson and green groups since his appointment as environment minister in June.

d-cat

09-18-2008, 07:17 PM

all roads lead to Babylon...

https://www.redicecreations.com/winterwonderland/babylonEU5.jpg
EU poster

https://www.nwcreation.net/images/tower_of_babel_small.JPG

https://www.biblestudy.net/Images/parliament.jpg
European Parliament; Strasbourg, France

d-cat

09-18-2008, 07:18 PM

They own the heavens!

Illegal To Collect Rain Water In USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj1-yS6tcOs

Braggi

09-18-2008, 10:25 PM

They own the heavens!

Illegal To Collect Rain Water In USA
]

Very impressive. Note they are not interested in being challenged in court.

There are a lot of stupid laws. Clearly this is one of them.

-Jeff

RichT

09-19-2008, 01:34 PM

Very impressive. Note they are not interested in being challenged in court.

There are a lot of stupid laws. Clearly this is one of them.

-Jeff
This is derived from English common law, where our property ownership concepts are derived from. The intent is not to deprive downstream neighbors of use of flowing water. What is required is a specific law allowing for capture and use of rainwater.

There are often instances where one user overburdens a water source to the detriment of others. Here in Sonoma County we have vineyards installing deep, high-volume wells that draw down a local aquifer. Residential neighbors are left with dry wells; a lawsuit is there only recourse to remedy the situation.

Collecting rainwater makes sense. Each jurisdiction needs legislation making allowances for it.

OrchardDweller

09-21-2008, 09:01 PM

So why so defensive? You're being a bit of a jerk here OrchardDweller.

I just pointed out some facts and asked if you'd actually read the article.

Perhaps you could share with us what the plan is for "people like me."

-Jeff

try looking here
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=37657

OrchardDweller

09-21-2008, 09:03 PM

article from March of this year...

UN rejects water as basic human right

...a special resolution proposed by Germany and Spain at the UN human rights council was stripped of references that recognized access to water as a human right. The countries also chose to scrap the idea of creating an international watchdog to investigate the issue, choosing instead to appoint a new consultant that would make recommendations over the next three years.

Federal officials in Canada said last week that the government wanted to ensure the meeting's outcome reflected the fact that access to water is not formally recognized as a human right in international law. But a social advocacy group said that the position was designed to protect the right to sell water under the North American Free Trade Agreement...

https://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=b65b35fd-477f-4956-98f4-c17a46fe3e26

OrchardDweller

09-21-2008, 11:02 PM

US Mayors Agree to Phase Out Bottled Water

The US Conference of Mayors on Monday passed a resolution calling for a phasing out of bottled water by municipalities and promoting the importance of public water supplies.

https://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/06/25/9872/

The only drinking water accessible to most people would be the water that the govt has complete control over.

Braggi

09-22-2008, 07:41 AM

d-cat

09-24-2008, 03:55 PM

Arctic Sea Ice Melt Season Officially Over; ice up over 9% from last year
https://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/09/16/artic-sea-ice-melt-season-officially-over-up-over-9-from-last-year/

Arctic Sees Massive Gain in Ice Coverage
https://www.dailytech.com/Article.aspx?newsid=12851

Predictions of open water prove incorrect as 1.74 million square miles of ice survive
https://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2008/20080917152523.aspx

An Inconvenient Truth exaggerated sea level rise
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/earth/2008/09/04/scigore104.xml

meanwhile...

https://www.unic.org.in/Events_BanKi-Moon-UnitedNationsSecretary-General_files/image001.gif

Global network necessary to confront climate change crisis, says UN's Ban Ki-moon
https://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=28063

d-cat

09-24-2008, 04:11 PM

and don't just take Ban Ki-Moon's word for it!

https://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/23/unitednations.georgebush

d-cat

09-30-2008, 07:34 PM

North America Must Integrate for Trade, Mexican president Calderon Says

https://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aErWCiaM5aJk&refer=latin_america

d-cat

10-04-2008, 08:30 AM

Canadian Prime Minister Harper officially endorses North American Union

https://www.prisonplanet.com/prime-minister-harper-officially-endorses-north-american-union.html

d-cat

10-04-2008, 08:37 AM

https://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb254/nma0707/July%20Photos/BanKiMoon.jpg

Ban Ki-moon calls for 'global leadership'

UN chief Ban Ki-moon on Tuesday stressed the need for "global leadership" as he pressed world leaders not to pursue narrow national interests in the face of hard economic times...
https://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080923141957.0wwwqogq&show_article=1

Hey Ban Ki-Moon - why don't you and your unelected friends get your own house in order!

Teenagers 'used for sex by UN in Bosnia' (2002)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/bosnia/1392175/Teenagers-%27used-for-sex-by-UN-in-Bosnia%27.html

Peace at What Price?: U.N. Sex Crimes in Congo (2005)
https://abcnews.go.com/2020/UnitedNations/story?id=489306

UN staff accused of raping children in Sudan (2007)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1538476/UN-staff-accused-of-raping-children-in-Sudan.html

Aid workers raping, abusing children (2008)
https://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/05/27/charity.aidworkers/index.html

Peacekeepers 'abusing children' (2008)
https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7420798.stm

.

d-cat

10-05-2008, 08:12 PM

if you thought the $700 billion bailout was bad, look at this from July!

https://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=70308

Braggi

10-06-2008, 11:09 AM

if you thought the $700 billion bailout was bad, look at this from July! ...

Judging from the banner ad at the top of that page, I'd say the article is full of crap. But let's just hope it's true and that it actually happens. Can you imagine if the US was viewed as the force bringing clean water and healthy food supplies to the world? Can you imagine if we fostered better health care for children instead of bringing war and pestilence and torture?

That would be so much cheaper than war, even one war. Perhaps we'd redevelop alliances with other countries instead of just appearing as a rapist, thief and murderer.

I'd vote for it.

Thanks for sharing d-cat. Hope it's true.

-Jeff

OrchardDweller

10-06-2008, 08:22 PM

Can you imagine if the US was viewed as the force bringing clean water and healthy food supplies to the world? Can you imagine if we fostered better health care for children instead of bringing war and pestilence and torture?

Can you imagine the US economy collapsing?

d-cat

10-07-2008, 10:04 AM

Fascist America, in 10 easy steps
by Naomi Wolf
https://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
2. Create a gulag
3. Develop a thug caste
4. Set up an internal surveillance system*
5. Harass citizens' groups
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
7. Target key individuals
8. Control the press
9. Dissent equals treason
10. Suspend the rule of law

*In Mussolini's Italy, in Nazi Germany, in communist East Germany, in communist China - in every closed society - secret police spy on ordinary people and encourage neighbours to spy on neighbours. This surveillance is cast as being about "national security"; the true function is to keep citizens docile and inhibit their activism and dissent.

https://freespeech.vo.llnwd.net/o25/pub/pp/images/july2008/170708obama.jpg

“We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded." -Barack Obama

Obama Calls For National Civilian Stasi
https://www.prisonplanet.com/obama-calls-for-national-civilian-stasi.html

I find this really weird...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxJ7t3U3TDg

like the Hitler Youth in Germany (don't miss the singing following the b&w stuff)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6_eIQQpDGQ

it's like something from a totalitarian state!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoXMn_nJK90

https://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/hitler_youth+large.jpg

Braggi

10-07-2008, 11:25 AM

Can you imagine the US economy collapsing?

I don't have to. It already is. Thing is, it's collapsing after we've made ourselves the pariah of the world. Wouldn't it be better if we'd been supporting other countries and helping them in the years leading up to a problem like we're involved in right now? What if we had a whole lot of friends around the world instead of a whole lot of enemies?

What we've been doing is not only expensive but incredibly destructive. Nobody's very likely to stand up and help us out. That could have been different.

-Jeff

Zeno Swijtink

10-07-2008, 11:29 AM

“We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded." -Barack Obama

Where is a reliable source for this quote? In a speech to students at the University of Colorado Obama speaks of a civilian Energy Corps and of AmeriCorps:

Obama offered several specific ideas for his call to service and invoked the names Martin Luther King Jr. and President Kennedy.

He said he would call on Americans to join the military and increase ground forces by 65,000 soldiers and 27,000 Marines. He also sought to expand AmeriCorps from its current 75,000 slots to 250,000. And he called upon Americans to join an Energy Corps to participate in environmental cleanup projects.

"We need your service, right now, at this moment — our moment — in history. I'm not going to tell you what your role should be. That's for you to discover," he said. "But I am going to ask you to play your part. Ask you to stand up. Ask you to put your foot firmly into the current of history. I am asking you to change history's course."

https://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jul/02/obama-visiting-springs-today/

Is this just another case of right wing slanting from https://www.prisonplanet.com/

Braggi

10-07-2008, 11:31 AM

I find this really weird...

Yeah, some very strange videos. Of course, that last one was put together by a McCain supporter and who knows about the translation of the Korean videos. Even if true, the Obama singers don't compare very well with the Korean kids.

The boys in military uniforms you really have to wonder about. If Obama is even aware of that it probably gives him the creeps too. I can't believe he supports it nor could he believe it will get him a single additional vote.

Can you imagine a McCain voter watching that video and then deciding to vote Obama? Yeah, sure. It's not exactly campaign literature. I doubt Obama even knew about it before he saw it on YouTube just like you and me.

-Jeff

d-cat

10-07-2008, 03:56 PM

I don't have to. It already is. Thing is, it's collapsing after we've made ourselves the pariah of the world. Wouldn't it be better if we'd been supporting other countries and helping them in the years leading up to a problem like we're involved in right now? What if we had a whole lot of friends around the world instead of a whole lot of enemies?

What we've been doing is not only expensive but incredibly destructive. Nobody's very likely to stand up and help us out. That could have been different.

-Jeff

You might look into what really happens with foreign aid money. Here's a good book on the subject.

https://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5120F8W5WDL.jpg

You can also find video interviews with Perkins online (DemocracyNow! is one). Ron Paul also has spoken about how govt aid money never reaches the people.

d-cat

10-07-2008, 04:04 PM

Is this just another case of right wing slanting from https://www.prisonplanet.com/

Prison Planet is right wing???!
Here are a couple recent stories from PrisonPlanet/InfoWars:

Bush & McCain Blackmail America With Economic Terrorism
www.prisonplanet.com/bush-mccain-blackmail-america-with-economic- terrorism.html

McCain: “I Always Aspire To Be A Dictator”
https://www.prisonplanet.com/mccain-i-always-aspire-to-be-a-dictator.html

Cyber Security Expert: Hackers Planning To Steal Election For McCain
https://www.prisonplanet.com/cyber-security-expert-hackers-planning-to-steal-election-for-mccain.html

McCain-Palin: “Bridge to Hell”
https://www.infowars.com/?p=4623

In the Banker’s Pocket: Obama, McCain Say Bailout Must Be Passed
https://www.infowars.com/?p=4903

Ron Paul: ‘There’s no difference’ between McCain and Obama
https://www.infowars.com/?p=4227

here's a must-see clip about Bush from one of their documentaries
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D6fxyOtVeI

and here's one that should make clear that what you state is not correct:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTahZE4q90U

d-cat

10-07-2008, 04:37 PM

Yeah, some very strange videos. Of course, that last one was put together by a McCain supporter and who knows about the translation of the Korean videos. Even if true, the Obama singers don't compare very well with the Korean kids.

The boys in military uniforms you really have to wonder about. If Obama is even aware of that it probably gives him the creeps too. I can't believe he supports it nor could he believe it will get him a single additional vote.

Can you imagine a McCain voter watching that video and then deciding to vote Obama? Yeah, sure. It's not exactly campaign literature. I doubt Obama even knew about it before he saw it on YouTube just like you and me.

-Jeff

You're always saying stuff like that in your posts.

You didn't believe the $845 billion Obama UN bill was real. But there is a link in the article to the actual bill on a govt site!

On the Russia thread you said that the New World Order is "Bush's baby". Wrong! Your info on the fluoride thread. Wrong!

What are you, a dis-info agent???! Or do you just like to publicly embarrass yourself??? Maybe you can provide some links sometime to back up what you say.

Zeno Swijtink

10-07-2008, 04:47 PM

Prison Planet is right wing???!
Here are a couple recent stories from PrisonPlanet/InfoWars:

Well, let's say from far over the horizon, where it indeed looks as if "‘there’s no difference’ between McCain and Obama."

d-cat

10-07-2008, 04:54 PM

Well, let's say from far over the horizon, where it indeed looks as if "‘there’s no difference’ between McCain and Obama."

Huh? So Prison Planet is right wing??!

d-cat

10-09-2008, 06:31 PM

Mainstream Media Ignores Hidden Carbon Tax Provisions in Paulson’s Bailout 2.0
https://www.prisonplanet.com/msm-ignores-hidden-carbon-tax-provisions-in-paulson’s-bailout-20.html

New World Order: Global co-operation, nationalisation and state intervention - all in one day
https://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/-New-World-Order.4573452.jp

d-cat

10-13-2008, 08:58 PM

Mainstream Media Ignores Hidden Carbon Tax Provisions in Paulson’s Bailout 2.0
https://www.prisonplanet.com/msm-ignores-hidden-carbon-tax-provisions-in-paulson’s-bailout-20.html

in case you didn't read the article

...Henry Paulson is a confirmed environmentalist and global warming true-believer who abused his power at Goldman Sachs. While Paulson headed Goldman Sachs he simultaneously headed the Nature Conservancy and his wife was a former Conservancy board member. (See “In Goldman Sachs We Trust: How the Left’s Favorite Bank Influences Public Policy,” by Fred Lucas, Foundation Watch, October 2008.)

Henry Paulson presided over Goldman Sachs’s donation of 680,000 acres of land it owned in Tierra del Fuego, Chile to the New York-based Wildlife Conservation Society. One of the trustees of the Wildlife Conservation Society was H. Merritt Paulson, the son of Henry Paulson...

Henry Paulson is the guy (Treasury Secretary) who is "bailing out" all the corporations, including his own. He was CEO of Goldman Sachs.

https://blog.puppetgov.com/wp-content/2007/09/paulson-bush.jpg

d-cat

10-17-2008, 09:39 PM

Alaskan Glaciers Grow for First Time in 250 years
https://www.dailytech.com/Alaskan%2BGlaciers%2BGrow%2Bfor%2BFirst%2BTime%2Bin%2B250%2Byears/article13215.htm

Arctic Sees Massive Gain in Ice Coverage
https://www.dailytech.com/Arctic%2BSees%2BMassive%2BGain%2Bin%2BIce%2BCoverage/article12851.htm

China battles "coldest winter in 100 years"
https://uk.reuters.com/article/homepageCrisis/idUKPEK161570._CH_.242020080204

Coldest Easter for more than 40 years
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-544088/It-coldest-Easter-40-years--spring-weather-April.html

This Year So Far Coolest For at Least 5 Years - WMO
https://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/49875/story.htm

If Elected Obama Will Declare CO2 a “Dangerous Pollutant”

A global carbon tax is not so much about limiting CO2 as it is a scheme designed to pay for world government and corporate globalization. “The Climate Change Control Bill strongly supported by Obama calls for an international governing regime to monitor and regulate carbon dioxide and ‘carbon footprints’ from discovery, to production, to consumption at a cost of $50 trillion globally and at a cost of $8 trillion for US taxpayers, all to be paid for by a global tax, whose monies will be used to establish a world government body,” writes Patrick Briley
https://infowars.net/articles/october2008/171008CO2.htm

Obama to Declare Carbon Dioxide Dangerous Pollutant
https://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a2RHIj_6hvV0

d-cat

10-17-2008, 10:02 PM

EU to present "Blueprint for Worldwide Currency System" to US
listen very closely, they do say it!
https://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=10235053&ch=4226714&news
(after the commercial)

so does this mean they are going to bypass the amero and go straight for the world currency?

https://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/ickchart.jpg

Zeno Swijtink

10-19-2008, 09:14 PM

This Year So Far Coolest For at Least 5 Years - WMO
https://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/49875/story.htm

In 2007, global land surface temperature was the warmest on record, while total surface temperature (including oceans) was the fifth warmest since records began in (https://clubhouse.sierraclub.org/conservation/energy/global-warming/NRDC%20GW%20Science%20Update%2009-2008.pdf) 1880. In the U.S., 2007 was the tenth warmest year, and six of the ten warmest years on record for the U.S. have
occurred since 1998. A severe heat wave affected large parts of the central and southeastern U.S. in August 2007, setting more than 2,500 new daily record highs. The seven months from January to July 2008 ranked as the ninth warmest seven-month period on record for total surface temperature.

More acres burned in the U.S. in 2006 and in 2007 than in any other year since 1960 (9.9 and 9.3 million acres, respectively).

Zeno Swijtink

10-19-2008, 09:36 PM

Alaskan Glaciers Grow for First Time in 250 years
https://www.dailytech.com/Alaskan%2BGlaciers%2BGrow%2Bfor%2BFirst%2BTime%2Bin%2B250%2Byears/article13215.htm

Bruce Molnia (quoted in the article above)
U.S. Geological Survey

https://www.pbs.org/journeytoplanetearth/about/expert_pdfs/molnia.pdf

Fifty years from now we’ll see a continuation of this trend of melting lower elevation glaciers. Again, I’m speaking for Alaska. Alaska has over 100,000 glaciers; 80,000 or more of these are at higher elevations. Those will experience minimal change in the temperature environment that we’re experiencing today and what we anticipate over the next few decades. At lower elevations, however, we’ll continue to see a shrinkage of large ice tongues in most parts of Alaska and I would think if you use the present statistics as a basis for making future predictions, we’re going to see again more than 95% of these larger glaciers that come to lower elevations shrink and in some cases completely disappear. On the other continents and in the lower 48 where the glacier cover is smaller, we may see an even more rapid disappearance of lower elevation glaciers, especially those that have south facing orientations.

This is evidence of global climate change and regional warming. Global warming is an interesting phrase. It implies a uniform warming of the globe and the data that we have is far more complicated than that. It shows many areas where we can clearly document warming trends, a number of areas where we see very little change and a few areas on the Earth’s surface that are actually cooling. I’d prefer to talk about the specifics in the areas where the glaciers are located and in those regions we’re definitely seeing significant warming trends. In Alaska, for instance, where we have temperature records and climatic evidence that spans more than a hundred years, we see between two and three degree Fahrenheit increase in temperature in the last century. In other parts of the world we’re seeing similar warming. The higher the latitude the greater the amounts of temperature change.

OrchardDweller

11-02-2008, 12:41 AM

d-cat

11-06-2008, 10:55 PM

London has first October snow in over 70 years
https://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/29/weather-london

Record Low Temperatures in Cuba
https://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID=%7BC322765D-6074-48D1-BFDA-5AF80B6D56B8%7D)&language=EN

Record cold freeze grips Middle Tennessee
https://www.theleafchronicle.com/article/20081102/ANNIVERSARY/811020323

Brrr! Record cold temps hit Tucson
https://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=9169319&nav=14RTY3ZV

A record cold morning in Texas
https://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/weather/entries/2008/10/28/a_record_cold_m.html

Daytona breaks cold record
https://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Local/newEAST04103008.htm

NOAA: U.S. breaks or ties 115 cold and sets 63 new snowfall*records
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/records/index.php?ts=daily&elem=mint&month=10&day=29&year=2008&submitted=Get+Records

"it is undisputable that the climate is getting warmer" - Barack Obama
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUH4so7HBZ0

phooph

11-06-2008, 11:23 PM

https://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=12455&tid=282&cid=10149

London has first October snow in over 70 years
https://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/29/weather-london

Record Low Temperatures in Cuba
https://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID=%7BC322765D-6074-48D1-BFDA-5AF80B6D56B8%7D)&language=EN (https://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID=%7BC322765D-6074-48D1-BFDA-5AF80B6D56B8%7D%29&language=EN)

Record cold freeze grips Middle Tennessee
https://www.theleafchronicle.com/article/20081102/ANNIVERSARY/811020323

Brrr! Record cold temps hit Tucson
https://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=9169319&nav=14RTY3ZV

A record cold morning in Texas
https://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/weather/entries/2008/10/28/a_record_cold_m.html

Daytona breaks cold record
https://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Local/newEAST04103008.htm

NOAA: U.S. breaks or ties 115 cold and sets 63 new snowfall*records
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/records/index.php?ts=daily&elem=mint&month=10&day=29&year=2008&submitted=Get+Records

"it is undisputable that the climate is getting warmer" - Barack Obama
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUH4so7HBZ0

d-cat

11-06-2008, 11:46 PM

here you have it, from the horse's mouth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s

Excellent OrchardDweller! So there you have it - Obama wants "a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded" as the military (which recently got a trillion dollar budget!).

Obama also wants to give $845 billion of our tax dollars to the UN through a bill he's sponsoring. That's more than the $700 billion bailout (which Obama voted for). The bailout alone will possibly cost $17,000 to every US household, according to CNET. Of the 100 senators, Obama received the most money from Wall Street, according to the documentary Washington You're Fired.

Change?

https://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/barky_dees.jpg

Braggi

11-07-2008, 06:53 AM

Excellent OrchardDweller! So there you have it - Obama wants "a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded" as the military (which recently got a trillion dollar budget!). ...

Here's another case of a statement taken out of context and filtered through the haze of ignorance.

While I agree Obama's choice of words is easily subject to misinterpretation, the kind of national security Obama was talking about was the security of a safe place to live, of safe roads and bridges to drive on, of safe places to eat and sleep. He was talking about fully funding such "security forces" as the Peace Corps which helps us develop world security by making friends instead of enemies. By "well funded as the military" he didn't mean funded with the same number of dollars but fully funded so they don't have to go begging if they want to add a few more volunteers. That's a huge difference. He never suggested the forces that will insure security within our borders should cost the same as the military.

Stop projecting Nazism on Obama. The Neo-(Nazi)-Con was just defeated.

-Jeff

d-cat

11-07-2008, 09:27 PM

H.R. 393: Universal National Service Act of 2007

This act will “require all persons in the United States between the ages of 18 and 42 to perform national service, either as a member of the uniformed services or in civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, to authorize the induction of persons in the uniformed services during wartime to meet end-strength requirements of the uniformed services, to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to make permanent the favorable treatment afforded combat pay under the earned income tax credit, and for other purposes.”
Also, “that all residents in the United States aged between 18 and 42 carry out national service, and be available for conscription during wartime. It would allow no deferments after age 20.”
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-393

Obama's chief of staff choice favors compulsory universal service

"It’s time for a real Patriot Act that brings out the patriot in all of us. We propose universal civilian service for every young American. Under this plan, All Americans between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five will be asked to serve their country by going through three months of basic training, civil defense preparation and community service" …
https://www.examiner.com/x-536-Civil-Liberties-Examiner~y2008m11d6-Obamas-chief-of-staff-choice-favors-compulsory-universal-service

Both Obama and McCain had plans for national service
https://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/7085eb12-f5f2-4019-a55e-daec115c9590.htm

the two-party tyranny thinks your tax money isn't enough!

Braggi

11-07-2008, 10:04 PM

H.R. 393: Universal National Service Act of 2007 ...

Note the date. It's gone.

... Obama's chief of staff choice favors compulsory universal service ...

So, how do you feel about the possibility?

... the two-party tyranny thinks your tax money isn't enough!

Yup. A two party tyranny. OK. So now they want three months of each young persons time to train them for disaster preparedness. That could be enough to set a lot of undisciplined people on a positive course for life. That prospect sounds good to me. Something similar happened to me when I was a near total f**k up at age 17. I spent six months with a little discipline. Possibly saved my (at that time) nearly worthless ass.

I have trouble with compulsory anything. Troubles with authority, you know? But I also see the possible benefits for an increasingly (it seems) undisciplined youth in our country. Perhaps a youth corps (I keep spelling that corpse) will help. The experience of comaraderie among youth should come from somewhere besides a street gang.

In Israel they have compulsory military service for all. They serve for years and every person is in the military reserve (if I recall correctly) for life. That does a lot to bond people to each other and to their country. I think that wouldn't work in the US, but three months ... that might work. And I bet it wouldn't cost a trillion dollars either.

-Jeff