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Sciguy
06-14-2008, 11:45 AM
Wacco Folks:

Gore Vidal has long been critical of the system of political representation we use in this country, calling us a "Republic" instead of a "Democracy". I agree with his castigation of our system. When we were just a small collection of 13 states, we could use a town meeting, on the local green, to make political decisions, where everyone represented himself. As we grew, this process became unwieldy and so we went to a system where we elect representatives and then turn them loose for two, four or six years, to act independently. To me, this is major political defect, since the representatives are free, in the instant, to represent NO ONE BUT THEMSELVES. Sure, they may remember that their constituents exist a few months before re-election time, but during their term, they are free to "vote their consciences", play political games that benefit themselves, make obeisance to lobbyists with the money, join the opposition, take popular demands "off the table", etc. Many of us, in the mistaken belief that there is no alternative, completely accept this kind of representative corruption (reprup?) and soothe our misgivings with nostrums about how it has always been thus and always will be.

Says who?

Technology has given us a new tool to reconnect this disconnect and reestablish the bonds between the individual in the New England town meeting and her government. I refer of course to the Internet.

Suddenly we have the ability to have a connected public debate and vote on every significant question that arises in legislative bodies. Why should we still be allowing representatives to make all of our important decisions, when we have the tool to draw back from a republic and install democracy?

The reason I bring this up locally here, is that we are blessed with a city council that is progressive and open to new ideas. My question to Wacco members is this - are there people who will join me in importuning the political leaders and players in Sebastopol to test out a new way to make decisions, by asking the citizens to make the large decisions for the city? Are you interested in this project? Let's do an experiment and test it out.

I have never been a fan of the federal approach to initiatives. That is to convince some players that they will be able to personally benefit by appropriating millions or billions of other people's money (the representative effect again) and starting a huge experiment under legislation written by some involved lobbyist. Instead, I would like to see political experiments tried out locally, fine tuned, improved, expanded and only then grown larger. That is why I think that Sebastopol is a perfect place to try this out. We have an electronically sophisticated citizenry, we have ways for people without computers to use those from friends or neighbors or the library. This is the perfect place for an experiment in democracy. Is Berkeley the only place to try out everything new?

Here is what I am specifically proposing. Let us create a political decision making process that works by asking the citizens to vote DIRECTLY on many issues that have traditionally been the domain of our representatives. Those are not to be advisory votes but determinative votes. The representatives will lose power. Will they fight like mad dogs to retain their power, against all comers? Or will they join the citizens in this progressive experiment and see the advantages of a shift toward democracy. In Washington, of course the former would be the absolute rule. But in Sebastopol, I have much more faith in our leaders and citizens than that.

There are many questions to be answered. Who gets a vote? How are passwords used to identify voters? What software is used? What role will representatives retain, if any? We will need to convene a conference to discuss this and other issues. But do we even have the grassroots interest to see if we can make this happen? Please email me or Wacco and let's toss it around.

I took heart from this report that appeared in the last Rachel Newsletter #963:

"PACKER TOWNSHIP, PENNSYLVANIA, PASSES LAW CONTROLLING CORPORATIONS

Municipal government bans corporate sewage sludge dumping; becomes third community in nation to ban chemical bodily trespass; strips corporations of claim to constitutional "rights." Ordinance recognizes the rights of nature; asserts civil rights of residents to sue corporations as state actors

Chambersburg, Pennsylvania -- On June 11, 2008, the Board of Supervisors for Packer Township in Carbon County, Pennsylvania, voted unanimously to enact a law that bans corporations from dumping sewage sludge as "fertilizer" and for "mine reclamation."

The Ordinance also states as a matter of law that, within the community, corporations possess no constitutional "rights," privileges or immunities intended for people. The community included this provision as a challenge to corporate representatives who use court- bestowed constitutional "rights" and legal privileges to nullify local laws and override the legitimate rights of citizens. "

If one township in Pennsylvania can overturn the hallowed rights of corporations, why can't we initiate an experiment in voting. It used to be that most people thought that elections were some kind of holy observance that could not be messed with. After two stolen elections, and flawed machines used in hopes of obscuring future elections, I hope we are all realizing that elections need to be designed and adjusted to serve all of our purposes. Why not go back to elections on important local topics, rather than merely for representatives?

Paul Palmer

Lenny
06-14-2008, 03:49 PM
Paul, are you proposing that the 6,000 that live in town vote such that it will affect the 30,000+ that the post office has us utilize for our mailing address?
Who/How will decide which issues to vote upon? Can I bring up for a vote all of us wear blue suede shoes and then NEAP? Or how long will my debate go on until we get to the minor stuff like the NEAP?
I don't like or trust direct democracy, although it could work in a small setting, and even then, maybe....but probably not. And how will the minority be "protected"? A bunch of theoretical crap is what I have at the moment. Not good for much else. But I will be interested to follow this event, even participate, but then I don't live in town. Will I still have a voice at the meetings, as I do now? Best of luck and really interesting!

Moon
06-14-2008, 09:34 PM
I'd like a daily, weekly or monthly electronic ballot on all matters that concern everyone.
I think the first sentence of Lenny's response means, "...affect the 30,000+ of us whom
the Post Office assigns 'Sebastopol' addresses?" I don't live in the Sebastopol area
(yet, though i may soon), but i think Sebastopol or Sonoma (though the latter is definitely
not west county) would be a better place to start than Petaluma, where i do live. Maybe
if fewer than a certain percentage of registered voters voted on an issue, then a body
of representatives could decide.


Wacco Folks:
representatives are free, in the instant, to represent NO ONE BUT THEMSELVES.
Why should we still be allowing representatives to make all of our important
decisions, when we have the tool to draw back from a republic and install democracy?
My question to Wacco members is this--are there people who will join me in importuning
the political leaders and players in Sebastopol to test out a new way to make decisions,
by asking the citizens to make the large decisions for the city? Are you
interested in this project? Let's do an experiment and test it out.
I would like to see political experiments tried out locally,
fine tuned, improved, expanded and only then grown larger.
Let us create a political decision making process that works by asking the citizens to vote
DIRECTLY on many issues that have traditionally been the domain of our representatives.
We will need to convene a conference to discuss issues.
After two stolen elections, and flawed machines used in hopes of
obscuring future elections, I hope we are all realizing that elections need
to be designed and adjusted to serve all of our purposes.
Paul Palmer

Lenny
06-15-2008, 06:40 AM
Moon, I kind of agree with you that I would like a weekly or even more often voting chance, in a way. I really do like the spirit in which this moves and enjoy the ride as well. But I trust you've been to those meetings where the smallest detail is discussed ad nauseam for seemingly endless hours. However when it was my ox to gore, I could easily pay attention and participate with understanding of such details. When it wasn't, my attitude changed.
And that is where the devil is, in the details. The problem is, I have a short attention span and a quick temper. I would pay someone to go and attend to that. Then we are back to a republic, and if she/he had to get back to me for any perceived change, then it is a halting one, and not a democracy.
Truthfully, it would work best on a tribal level, not is Sebastopol due to the thick layer of other bureaucratic overhead by the state and the feds. That plus the fact that too many want more gov't control, which means more bureaucracy. Makes me want to go back to the tribe even more so!

Sciguy
06-15-2008, 10:10 AM
Lenny:
The truth is that I am not proposing anything so definite. I would assume that the same people who are now given the privilege of voting for city council people would instead get the privilege of sitting in for that same council in making online decisions. I don't understand how the post office designation fits into anything.

Anyway, any questions have to be resolved by meeting together and tossing the ideas around.

Paul Palmer





Paul, are you proposing that the 6,000 that live in town vote such that it will affect the 30,000+ that the post office has us utilize for our mailing address?
Who/How will decide which issues to vote upon? Can I bring up for a vote all of us wear blue suede shoes and then NEAP? Or how long will my debate go on until we get to the minor stuff like the NEAP?
I don't like or trust direct democracy, although it could work in a small setting, and even then, maybe....but probably not. And how will the minority be "protected"? A bunch of theoretical crap is what I have at the moment. Not good for much else. But I will be interested to follow this event, even participate, but then I don't live in town. Will I still have a voice at the meetings, as I do now? Best of luck and really interesting!

Lenny
06-15-2008, 06:39 PM
Lenny:
The truth is that I am not proposing anything so definite. I would assume that the same people who are now given the privilege of voting for city council people would instead get the privilege of sitting in for that same council in making online decisions. I don't understand how the post office designation fits into anything.Anyway, any questions have to be resolved by meeting together and tossing the ideas around. Paul Palmer

Thank you, Paul. The post office reference does not fit into any specific designation, however when one says "Sebastopol", well that is more than just a "state of mind". All kidding aside, your excellent proposal into this area would then be limited to Sebastopudlians only. You see there is a larger number of folks outside town limits that would be "effected" by some of the decisions made. Actually, I've no problem with it, just wanted to make known some of the issues for consideration.
IOW, let's kick it around.

Barry
06-16-2008, 04:17 PM
This is the same consideration the council needs to deal with as well (Sebastopol is larger than it's city limits)


Thank you, Paul. The post office reference does not fit into any specific designation, however when one says "Sebastopol", well that is more than just a "state of mind". All kidding aside, your excellent proposal into this area would then be limited to Sebastopudlians only. You see there is a larger number of folks outside town limits that would be "effected" by some of the decisions made. Actually, I've no problem with it, just wanted to make known some of the issues for consideration.
IOW, let's kick it around.

Sciguy
06-19-2008, 01:08 AM
Thanks for the interest in this proposal.

Remember that this is not a proposal to fix everything that is wrong with politics in Sebastopol. The issue of wider participation in politics by outliers is one that will still be argued out. The difference is that there will be a vigorous public debate, available to everyone on the web, and that everyone can participate (if that is what is wanted). I assume that the voters will decide when debate should be closed and the vote on the issue taken. The same voters may want to break decisions into small parts, postpone votes or abandon projects. However, there will be one vote for each citizen - a level of democracy now unattainable no matter how well intentioned the City councilpeople or how well enforced is the Brown Act, which controls public meetings.

There could be many interesting issues arising, which is the reason for going slowly and trying to experiment on some limited decisions. Do the citizens really want to participate? Would they rather "hire" some representatives to make the decisions for them? Is everyone too busy? Can enough people find access to the computers (including friend's computers and library computers)? Can a format be found (blog, bulletin board, email roundtable etc.) that feels right? Would too many people feel intimidated and just lurk and is that a bad thing? Or on the positive side, would it be a spectacular success that citizens might want to expand into a universal form of decision making?

Does anyone have a good meeting place for an initial conference on the subject? We often have meetings in Coffee Katz. Or the Community Hall or Teen Center or somewhere else. I don't have the living arrangement to offer an inside space right now.

Paul Palmer



This is the same consideration the council needs to deal with as well (Sebastopol is larger than it's city limits)