The Excesses of "Democracy:" Inmate Count in U.S. Dwarfs Other Nations’

[Zeno Swijtink]

A contribution to the "U.S. compared to other nations" series.

I could sing praise to these lands we live in, these peoples, the vibrant creativity among us and in us, were it not for the ignorance, the stupidity, the Christianity-Run-Amok, that stands in the way of what this country can be.

****
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/us/23prison.html?

April 23, 2008
AMERICAN EXCEPTION
Inmate Count in U.S. Dwarfs Other Nations’
By ADAM LIPTAK

The United States has less than 5 percent of the world’s population. But it has almost a quarter of the world’s prisoners.

Indeed, the United States leads the world in producing prisoners, a reflection of a relatively recent and now entirely distinctive American approach to crime and punishment. Americans are locked up for crimes — from writing bad checks to using drugs — that would rarely produce prison sentences in other countries. And in particular they are kept incarcerated far longer than prisoners in other nations.

Criminologists and legal scholars in other industrialized nations say they are mystified and appalled by the number and length of American prison sentences.

The United States has, for instance, 2.3 million criminals behind bars, more than any other nation, according to data maintained by the International Center for Prison Studies at King’s College London.

China, which is four times more populous than the United States, is a distant second, with 1.6 million people in prison. (That number excludes hundreds of thousands of people held in administrative detention, most of them in China’s extrajudicial system of re-education through labor, which often singles out political activists who have not committed crimes.)

San Marino, with a population of about 30,000, is at the end of the long list of 218 countries compiled by the center. It has a single prisoner.

The United States comes in first, too, on a more meaningful list from the prison studies center, the one ranked in order of the incarceration rates. It has 751 people in prison or jail for every 100,000 in population. (If you count only adults, one in 100 Americans is locked up.)

The only other major industrialized nation that even comes close is Russia, with 627 prisoners for every 100,000 people. The others have much lower rates. England’s rate is 151; Germany’s is 88; and Japan’s is 63.

The median among all nations is about 125, roughly a sixth of the American rate.

There is little question that the high incarceration rate here has helped drive down crime, though there is debate about how much.

Criminologists and legal experts here and abroad point to a tangle of factors to explain America’s extraordinary incarceration rate: higher levels of violent crime, harsher sentencing laws, a legacy of racial turmoil, a special fervor in combating illegal drugs, the American temperament, and the lack of a social safety net. Even democracy plays a role, as judges — many of whom are elected, another American anomaly — yield to populist demands for tough justice.

Whatever the reason, the gap between American justice and that of the rest of the world is enormous and growing.

It used to be that Europeans came to the United States to study its prison systems. They came away impressed.

“In no country is criminal justice administered with more mildness than in the United States,” Alexis de Tocqueville, who toured American penitentiaries in 1831, wrote in “Democracy in America.”

No more.

“Far from serving as a model for the world, contemporary America is viewed with horror,” James Q. Whitman, a specialist in comparative law at Yale, wrote last year in Social Research. “Certainly there are no European governments sending delegations to learn from us about how to manage prisons.”

Prison sentences here have become “vastly harsher than in any other country to which the United States would ordinarily be compared,” Michael H. Tonry, a leading authority on crime policy, wrote in “The Handbook of Crime and Punishment.”

Indeed, said Vivien Stern, a research fellow at the prison studies center in London, the American incarceration rate has made the United States “a rogue state, a country that has made a decision not to follow what is a normal Western approach.”

The spike in American incarceration rates is quite recent. From 1925 to 1975, the rate remained stable, around 110 people in prison per 100,000 people. It shot up with the movement to get tough on crime in the late 1970s. (These numbers exclude people held in jails, as comprehensive information on prisoners held in state and local jails was not collected until relatively recently.)

The nation’s relatively high violent crime rate, partly driven by the much easier availability of guns here, helps explain the number of people in American prisons.

“The assault rate in New York and London is not that much different,” said Marc Mauer, the executive director of the Sentencing Project, a research and advocacy group. “But if you look at the murder rate, particularly with firearms, it’s much higher.”

Despite the recent decline in the murder rate in the United States, it is still about four times that of many nations in Western Europe.

But that is only a partial explanation. The United States, in fact, has relatively low rates of nonviolent crime. It has lower burglary and robbery rates than Australia, Canada and England.

People who commit nonviolent crimes in the rest of the world are less likely to receive prison time and certainly less likely to receive long sentences. The United States is, for instance, the only advanced country that incarcerates people for minor property crimes like passing bad checks, Mr. Whitman wrote.

Efforts to combat illegal drugs play a major role in explaining long prison sentences in the United States as well. In 1980, there were about 40,000 people in American jails and prisons for drug crimes. These days, there are almost 500,000.

Those figures have drawn contempt from European critics. “The U.S. pursues the war on drugs with an ignorant fanaticism,” said Ms. Stern of King’s College.

Many American prosecutors, on the other hand, say that locking up people involved in the drug trade is imperative, as it helps thwart demand for illegal drugs and drives down other kinds of crime. Attorney General Michael B. Mukasey, for instance, has fought hard to prevent the early release of people in federal prison on crack cocaine offenses, saying that many of them “are among the most serious and violent offenders.”

Still, it is the length of sentences that truly distinguishes American prison policy. Indeed, the mere number of sentences imposed here would not place the United States at the top of the incarceration lists. If lists were compiled based on annual admissions to prison per capita, several European countries would outpace the United States. But American prison stays are much longer, so the total incarceration rate is higher.

Burglars in the United States serve an average of 16 months in prison, according to Mr. Mauer, compared with 5 months in Canada and 7 months in England.

Many specialists dismissed race as an important distinguishing factor in the American prison rate. It is true that blacks are much more likely to be imprisoned than other groups in the United States, but that is not a particularly distinctive phenomenon. Minorities in Canada, Britain and Australia are also disproportionately represented in those nation’s prisons, and the ratios are similar to or larger than those in the United States.

Some scholars have found that English-speaking nations have higher prison rates.

“Although it is not at all clear what it is about Anglo-Saxon culture that makes predominantly English-speaking countries especially punitive, they are,” Mr. Tonry wrote last year in “Crime, Punishment and Politics in Comparative Perspective.”

“It could be related to economies that are more capitalistic and political cultures that are less social democratic than those of most European countries,” Mr. Tonry wrote. “Or it could have something to do with the Protestant religions with strong Calvinist overtones that were long influential.”

The American character — self-reliant, independent, judgmental — also plays a role.

“America is a comparatively tough place, which puts a strong emphasis on individual responsibility,” Mr. Whitman of Yale wrote. “That attitude has shown up in the American criminal justice of the last 30 years.”

French-speaking countries, by contrast, have “comparatively mild penal policies,” Mr. Tonry wrote.

Of course, sentencing policies within the United States are not monolithic, and national comparisons can be misleading.

“Minnesota looks more like Sweden than like Texas,” said Mr. Mauer of the Sentencing Project. (Sweden imprisons about 80 people per 100,000 of population; Minnesota, about 300; and Texas, almost 1,000. Maine has the lowest incarceration rate in the United States, at 273; and Louisiana the highest, at 1,138.)

Whatever the reasons, there is little dispute that America’s exceptional incarceration rate has had an impact on crime.

“As one might expect, a good case can be made that fewer Americans are now being victimized” thanks to the tougher crime policies, Paul G. Cassell, an authority on sentencing and a former federal judge, wrote in The Stanford Law Review.

From 1981 to 1996, according to Justice Department statistics, the risk of punishment rose in the United States and fell in England. The crime rates predictably moved in the opposite directions, falling in the United States and rising in England.

“These figures,” Mr. Cassell wrote, “should give one pause before too quickly concluding that European sentences are appropriate.”

Other commentators were more definitive. “The simple truth is that imprisonment works,” wrote Kent Scheidegger and Michael Rushford of the Criminal Justice Legal Foundation in The Stanford Law and Policy Review. “Locking up criminals for longer periods reduces the level of crime. The benefits of doing so far offset the costs.”

There is a counterexample, however, to the north. “Rises and falls in Canada’s crime rate have closely paralleled America’s for 40 years,” Mr. Tonry wrote last year. “But its imprisonment rate has remained stable.”

Several specialists here and abroad pointed to a surprising explanation for the high incarceration rate in the United States: democracy.

Most state court judges and prosecutors in the United States are elected and are therefore sensitive to a public that is, according to opinion polls, generally in favor of tough crime policies. In the rest of the world, criminal justice professionals tend to be civil servants who are insulated from popular demands for tough sentencing.

Mr. Whitman, who has studied Tocqueville’s work on American penitentiaries, was asked what accounted for America’s booming prison population.

“Unfortunately, a lot of the answer is democracy — just what Tocqueville was talking about,” he said. “We have a highly politicized criminal justice system.”

[Clancy]

The United States has less than 5 percent of the world’s population. But it has almost a quarter of the world’s prisoners.

That's utterly shameful, and puts to bed the 'conservative' notion that jailing people makes us safer.

If locking people up made us safer, America would be the safest nation on earth instead of one of the most violent.

[Braggi]

...

I could sing praise to these lands we live in, these peoples, the vibrant creativity among us and in us, were it not for the ignorance, the stupidity, the Christianity-Run-Amok, that stands in the way of what this country can be.
...

Zeno, it's interesting the article doesn't mention at all the Law Enforcement Growth Industry or the punitive, puritanical mindset that pushes for ever harsher sentences while elected officials always support their election platforms with "tough on crime" promises (although it does mention elected judges).

The Failed War on Some Drugs is a nearly direct offshoot of the Inquisition's suppression of witchcraft, herbalism and midwifery. It's clearly the same twisted, envious, fearful mindset applied legally.

-Jeff

[Lenny]

Zeno, it's interesting the article doesn't mention at all the Law Enforcement Growth Industry or the punitive, puritanical mindset that pushes for ever harsher sentences while elected officials always support their election platforms with "tough on crime" promises (although it does mention elected judges).

The Failed War on Some Drugs is a nearly direct offshoot of the Inquisition's suppression of witchcraft, herbalism and midwifery. It's clearly the same twisted, envious, fearful mindset applied legally. -Jeff

Agree/Disagree.
EVERYTHING now is a felony. At one time cops could use "discretionary decision making" while in the streets. No longer. I am not into wife beating; cut off the offending hand on the spot the first time and that crime would go down quickly. But as the law stands now, it is an instant felony. Strike one. You and I get into a fight (men do) and in separating us one yells t'other, "I am going to kill you", now it is a Terrorist Threat: felony. Cops have to arrest. Strike Two.
Talked to a guy once, got two years in stinking prison because a dog in his dog grooming shop ran out into the street and got hit. It was the third time a dog ran out with someone complaining. Felony. What use to be problems are now felonies. It is the felonization of America, especially in California.
So we lock up more people. Why so many felonies? Complicated, but lawyers-on-welfare seems to be one answer. As everything is lobbied to become felonies, they are the paid lobbyists.

Disagree on the drug thing. Yeah, this war is a lost failure, but keeping drugs illegal is a real deal. Rather than go into it and become oh, so, boring. Check out the laissez faire political and social approach the Chinese used in the 19th century towards their own population when the British introduced opium. It took about a hundred years before them realized the evil of drugs. Contemporaneous to their solution and along with the synthesis of opium into morphine by the Germans and the stringing out of America by the early 20th century, it was a good thing that by 1914 all that crap became illegal. :2cents:

[Braggi]

Agree/Disagree.
... It took about a hundred years before them realized the evil of drugs. Contemporaneous to their solution and along with the synthesis of opium into morphine by the Germans and the stringing out of America by the early 20th century, it was a good thing that by 1914 all that crap became illegal. :2cents:

Excess begets excess. The pendulum swings. That doesn't mean we have to be stupid like the current situation is. We can tolerate a very different drug enforcement strategy because the status quo is intolerable.

First of all, legalize pot. For goodness sake! That's still 80% of the drug war right now. Lay off the cops, close the prisons and balance the budget. Then legalize all plants and animals (unless endangered or otherwise protected by law). The fact that you can be arrested for possession of toad mucous is pretty obnoxious. Collecting it doesn't even hurt the toad.

We can live with legal plants. So many people who delve into more dangerous substances would be happy if they could get a safe, inexpensive supply of plants. Our current policies push substance users and abusers toward the most dangerous substances.

-Jeff

[Lenny]

Excess begets excess. The pendulum swings. That doesn't mean we have to be stupid like the current situation is. We can tolerate a very different drug enforcement strategy because the status quo is intolerable.
First of all, legalize pot. For goodness sake! That's still 80% of the drug war right now. Lay off the cops, close the prisons and balance the budget. Then legalize all plants and animals (unless endangered or otherwise protected by law). The fact that you can be arrested for possession of toad mucous is pretty obnoxious. Collecting it doesn't even hurt the toad. We can live with legal plants. So many people who delve into more dangerous substances would be happy if they could get a safe, inexpensive supply of plants. Our current policies push substance users and abusers toward the most dangerous substances. -Jeff

Legalize plants? That's it? Very different approach, for me.
Never thought about it that way. Sounds "sweet" and innocuous. Almost "nice" & "cute". But come on! Legalize the poppy? No, I think not. Legalize cocoa? Give me a break. 'Shrooms? No, sorry. Peyote? No. Sure, just like tobacco, used for SACRED reasons, but there are those now (majority) that will use it for stupidity. It would be like making shotguns mandatory in all vehicles.
Yes, I know you can grow morning glories and eat the seeds. Yes, I know it's not the stupid plant, it is us. So until we can all be mature (ha!)...but by then we won't need such silly laws.
Marijuana. This is NOT the group to go up against, but (gulp) it should still remain illegal. As stated previously, I've been around more than a weekend or two, and I've seen the devastation it caused in personal lives. Yes, you know folks who've been blah, blah, blah, and STILL blah, blah, blah. Great! That ain't most.
Besides, in the current culture, it is 'groovy' to get stoned.
There've been other cultures where those by-products have produced an opposite effect. You know the origin of the term "assassin". Those that wish to control would utilize the stupefying effects of this innocuous weed on larger number of folks. Of course, what makes me think it ain't happening now! Look around! Some of the posts on this website.....well, never mind.
The medical effects of sucking down large amounts of burning weed is not promulgated, but it is still there for one to find. 'Nuff said on that.
Finally, the "freedom" issue. As one who tries to allow as much freedom as the individual may handle, we have to first admit to living in compromise, in a union, and give up some of our behaviors in order to live together. As Lenny Bruce succinctly stated, "The law, judges, cops, all that come from 100 monkeys living in a cave. Ninety nine decide to eat here and crap there.....". Given the above poorly written and so much more boring stuff, we need to keep it illegal. Now I know your Puritanical forefathers get brittle at the idea of having a law not enforced.....another issue we need to work on. :2cents:

[thewholetruth]

I'm trackin' with you on this stuff, Lenny. The truth is (collective groan) that virtually every person who thinks legalization is a good idea smokes pot. I said virtually. There are those who codepend them, as well, and those who are oblivious to pot's role in the addiction process. Many addicts who end up addicted to crack, meth, heroin and prescription drugs first find escape through pot. Pot makes people apathetic. That's the draw, isn't it? It makes you think everything's okay, even when it's not. It's not reality, being stoned. It's a dream world.

So now, all of you pot heads go ahead and come against what I just said. I'm ready.

You're so predictable. LOL (Not you, Lenny - the pot heads. :wink:)

Don

[Lenny]

The truth is (collective groan) that virtually every person who thinks legalization is a good idea smokes pot. I said virtually. There are those who codepend them, as well, and those who are oblivious to pot's role in the addiction process. Many addicts who end up addicted to crack, meth, heroin and prescription drugs first find escape through pot. Pot makes people apathetic. That's the draw, isn't it? It makes you think everything's okay, even when it's not. It's not reality, being stoned. It's a dream world.
So now, all of you pot heads go ahead and come against what I just said. I'm ready. Don

Actually, Don, most pot heads started out on mother's milk, and according to some logic, that may be the cause! For those not on the pernicious weed, they've not the opportunity afterwards? :2cents:
PS: Oh, yeah, I can hear them coming!

[Braggi]

Legalize plants? ... But come on! Legalize the poppy? No, I think not. Legalize cocoa? Give me a break. 'Shrooms? No, sorry. Peyote? No. Sure, just like tobacco, used for SACRED reasons, but there are those now (majority) that will use it for stupidity. ...

Really? And what if our culture grew beyond the grossly immature "just say no" mentality and had real drug education. Like which drugs are safer vs. which are more dangerous. What if it was legal to teach people how to safely consume plants in a sacralized environment? There are many cultures around the world that use substances that our Government considers "substances of abuse" in ways that are not abuse. This method of use (such as in the ayahuasca cults of Brazil) cures many of alcoholism and domestic violence. Do some reading on the Uño de Vegetal or the Santo Diamé Church.

Let's look at your shopping list, Lenny: the poppy? Guess what? It is legal. Just don't cut slits in the seed head. It's perfectly legal to grow in the US. Few are dying because of that status. How about coca? Look into statistics from the countries where it's legal and see how many are getting in trouble with it. I think you'll find it's far fewer than get in trouble with the white powder we use here. Peyote? Ever had it Lenny? It's not a party drug and never will be. It's an ordeal to use Peyote. It is, in fact, legal in limited ways in the US. The cops rarely look for it. Many have been cured of alcoholism by using it. Mushrooms? Even without the safety net of the sacred medicine circle, very few people in the US get in any kind of trouble with mushrooms. They are one of the safest inebriants on the planet. Do a google search on how many mushroom deaths there are each year. Most are caused by mushrooms that are misidentified which is a problem legalization would cure. In fact, do a search on how many MDMA (Ecstasy) deaths there are each year in the US. I think you'll be surprised how few there are (assuming you find honest numbers).

Yes, our culture can assimilate the casualties of drugs a whole lot better than the casualties of the Failed War on Some Drugs. The Failed War destroys families, ruins careers, turns students into criminals, corrupts laws enforcement, turns Government employees into pirates that steal personal property without reasonable cause or due process, and empowers a vast black market that in turn empowers gangs, drug cartels, and corrupt governments around the globe. Take a look at our puppet Afghanistan and perhaps you'll understand the real reason we had to take out the Taliban.

BTW, if heroin was legalized tomorrow, would you feel the urge to run out and get yourself addicted? Fewer than one percent would start using any illegal drug if they were all legalized according to one poll (assuming they do not use now).

The rest of your post is pretty laughable so I'll let it stand. If there's something you'd really like me to answer, please ask.

-Jeff

[thewholetruth]

"BTW, if heroin was legalized tomorrow, would you feel the urge to run out and get yourself addicted? Fewer than one percent would start using any illegal drug if they were all legalized according to one poll (assuming they do not use now). "

And hypothetically, if that one percent included your daughter?

How about prostitution, Jeff? Do you support legalized prostitution, too? I bet you do. Hypothetically (since I don't know if you even have a daughter or not, but I do) would you support it if your daughter took up the trade in Liberal little Sebastopol? You'll probably say yes, and I just shake my head.

"The rest of your post is pretty laughable so I'll let it stand."

Your position is totally naive and idealistic, Jeff, and a far cry from reality. Could be all that ganja you advocate. :wink:

Don

[Braggi]

Clergy Speak Out Against the War on Drugs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozJ-ccVrPkI

These people understand that a war on drugs is a war on people, on our communities, on our economy, on our tax base, on our families, on the Constitution, and most importantly, on freedom.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Law Enforcement Against Prohibition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LayaGk0TMDc&feature=related

Law Enforcement against the Failed War on Some Drugs? You bet. These folks are sick of it. They know what's going on.

-Jeff

[Lenny]

Boy, those Quote boxes are COOL. Wish I could do that!

Key word in this is CULTURE.
I.E. if we were mature, we would not need such laws. True We are not. I was around when LSD, for example, was legal, and folks abused it. Like crazy. Why do you think it was made illegal? And your notion of "drug education" is as ridiculous as "drug wars", or "sex education". While taking a moral stance on both, in a previous CULTURE of America (1950's and before) kept abuse at a minimum. Surprise! Oh, and please don't call the 50's "repressed". So cliche' and inaccurate.
As for culture, it takes more than a generation to change it. And who is to teach, and what? "Why THIS plant we may take only a little, and not a lot" would be the argument of another immature mine. By definition many would not, nor could not, understand the answer. Much like being a teenager is akin to being mentally ill, as some neurologists have recently pointed out. Of course Freud called it hebephrenic schizophrenia. And young people are what we are talking about, no?
I know in Cuba, prior to Fidel, most families had opium the way yours has cough syrup, and that CULTURE knew how to deal with it. As you point out there are many cultures that have their ways. We do not have a "sacred" culture in this country AT ALL. We have subcultures, but in the main, we are free wheeling, so your drug legalization would follow such. Besides the "sacredization" of America is being hunted down by many, as such a culture interferes with the state.
And, as previously mentioned about the Chinese, learn from history. For another example, alcohol was made illegal with prohibition working, in the main, relative to reduction of use. It was repealed and now, we have more alcoholics than ever. Legalization created more alcoholics and advertising does work by increasing that malady.

Contrary to your assertion, "Fewer than one percent would start using any illegal drug if they were all legalized according to one poll (assuming they do not use now)" the FACT is a large number American people WERE getting strung out, prior to the Harrison Act and other laws banning opiates.

The "airy-fairy" notion of CULTURE comparisons, the facts of history, both in China and US in the late 19th & early 20 century, the plain, flat out common sense, as well as the moral argument for true personal freedom of any human being from exogenous control really does nullify all that you have brought to this table. Or at least that is my :2cents:



Really? And what if our culture grew beyond the grossly immature "just say no" mentality and had real drug education. Like which drugs are safer vs. which are more dangerous. What if it was legal to teach people how to safely consume plants in a sacralized environment? There are many cultures around the world that use substances that our Government considers "substances of abuse" in ways that are not abuse. This method of use (such as in the ayahuasca cults of Brazil) cures many of alcoholism and domestic violence. Do some reading on the Uño de Vegetal or the Santo Diamé Church.
Let's look at your shopping list, Lenny: the poppy? Guess what? It is legal. Just don't cut slits in the seed head. It's perfectly legal to grow in the US. Few are dying because of that status. How about coca? Look into statistics from the countries where it's legal and see how many are getting in trouble with it. I think you'll find it's far fewer than get in trouble with the white powder we use here. Peyote? Ever had it Lenny? It's not a party drug and never will be. It's an ordeal to use Peyote. It is, in fact, legal in limited ways in the US. The cops rarely look for it. Many have been cured of alcoholism by using it. Mushrooms? Even without the safety net of the sacred medicine circle, very few people in the US get in any kind of trouble with mushrooms. They are one of the safest inebriants on the planet. Do a google search on how many mushroom deaths there are each year. Most are caused by mushrooms that are misidentified which is a problem legalization would cure. In fact, do a search on how many MDMA (Ecstasy) deaths there are each year in the US. I think you'll be surprised how few there are (assuming you find honest numbers).
Yes, our culture can assimilate the casualties of drugs a whole lot better than the casualties of the Failed War on Some Drugs. The Failed War destroys families, ruins careers, turns students into criminals, corrupts laws enforcement, turns Government employees into pirates that steal personal property without reasonable cause or due process, and empowers a vast black market that in turn empowers gangs, drug cartels, and corrupt governments around the globe. Take a look at our puppet Afghanistan and perhaps you'll understand the real reason we had to take out the Taliban.
BTW, if heroin was legalized tomorrow, would you feel the urge to run out and get yourself addicted? Fewer than one percent would start using any illegal drug if they were all legalized according to one poll (assuming they do not use now).
The rest of your post is pretty laughable so I'll let it stand. If there's something you'd really like me to answer, please ask.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

...
As for culture, it takes more than a generation to change it. And who is to teach, and what? "Why THIS plant we may take only a little, and not a lot" would be the argument of another immature mine. ... Or at least that is my :2cents:

And once again, your dos centavos will get you nowhere but where we've been headed since the Failed War on Some Drugs began: a police state.

Lenny, just because you're ignorant of or don't understand a science, a spiritual tradition, a sub culture or a vast network of teachers doesn't mean they don't exist. Other posters here could take that to heart.

MAPS does government authorized research on "psychedelic" medicines and outreach and education to many groups.

Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies
https://maps.org/indexA.html

Erowid is the repository of the literature of unauthorized research and experience. Yes, Lenny, you can learn all about recommended dosages here of just about anything under the sun, including drugs and plants you've never heard of and what happens when you take them in combination with other drugs. Caveat Emptor. Thousands of contributors here. It's the Wikipedia of sacred medicines (as well as the profane).

https://www.erowid.org/

I'll stop there. You can follow links on these two sites for months and never read all the wisdom and madness out there.

I've always wanted to make up a bumper sticker:

Why do you think they call it Ecstasy?
Don't be a Dope. Learn about drugs.
Erowid.org


Of course, I'd be afraid to put it on my bumper, because, like so many US citizens, I love my country, but I fear my government.

That's so sad, isn't it?

-Jeff

[thewholetruth]

I've always wanted to make up a bumper sticker:


Why do you think they call it Ecstasy?
Don't be a Dope. Learn about drugs.
Erowid.org


Of course, I'd be afraid to put it on my bumper, because, like so many US citizens, I love my country, but I fear my government.

That's so sad, isn't it?




To be honest, logic suggests that you're probably more afraid of your neighbors and your boss and/or clients knowing you advocate illegal drug use, Jeff. It seems like a diversion to pretend you're afraid of your government in this regard, as though you're afraid to be completely honest about how you advocate illegal drug use so you pretend you're afraid of the government. Perhaps it's that you don't want to attract the attention of police, and that's normal for people who use illegal substances, as they are oftentimes, if not always, holding (that means they have drugs on them or in their car, for those of you who've never been involved in the underground drug world).

What's really sad is that in the most free nation in the world that you're too paranoid to put a bumper sticker on your car. There are many of us who aren't afraid to put bumper stickers on our cars, Jeff. The truth shall set you free, sir. It's true. Perhaps you'd like to talk about this over coffee one day, Jeff? My treat. :wink:

Don

[thewholetruth]

because, like so many US citizens, I love my country, but I fear my government.


Why would you fear your government, Jeff? Unless, I suppose, you choose not to follow our laws. I don't fear our government, but then I don't use illegal drugs, drive drunk, cheat on my taxes, grow marijuana, sell dope, assault people, ignore speed limits - you know, all the common reasons people typically fear their government in the US. If you're not breaking the law, then you have nothing to fear.

There is something to be said about clean and honest living, Jeff. It's called "freedom". Real freedom.

Don

[Braggi]

...logic suggests that you're probably more afraid of your neighbors and your boss and/or clients knowing you advocate illegal drug use, Jeff. ...

Since most of my clients are reading this, I suppose I'm not that afraid of them, Don. I'm probably more honest than you suppose. That really is my name in my profile and that really is my picture. I'm not hiding anything from my community.



... Perhaps it's that you don't want to attract the attention of police, and that's normal for people who use illegal substances, as they are oftentimes, if not always, holding (that means they have drugs on them or in their car, for those of you who've never been involved in the underground drug world). ...

I'm never "holding" in my car, Don. I don't fit the profile of addict you have in mind. Remember: just because you're ignorant of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you don't understand something, doesn't make it false. Just because a spiritual tradition is different from yours doesn't make it wrong.

There is another model of drug use (as opposed to abuse) that I'd like to make you aware of. This will be hard for you since the 12 step model is that all use is abuse and there is no such thing as conscious use of substances.

There are a lot of drugs that just aren't that abusable and there is a whole class of users that are upstanding citizens, don't use habitually, and only use their drug experiences to help their lives and the lives of the people in their families and communities. I'm having a little trouble with the use of the word "drugs" because I think of these substances as "plant helpers" and "sacred medicines." Yes, some of them are illegal and tragically so. Many are legal so "holding" isn't even a crime.

Many of these folks I mentioned only use sacred medicines three or four times a year and actually never have any of the substances in their possession either in their cars or in their homes. A lot of them won't even use caffeine they're so anti-drug. But they are brave enough to use sacred medicines occasionally as a tool for self and life examination. A chemically assisted "retreat" of sorts. In a sacred circle, with sacred intent, with careful dosage, in complete safety, a whole lot of introspective work can occur. Some people I have known have miraculously healed deep wounds in their lives and with their families in sacred medicine circles. I'm sure you have seen similar "cures" in your 12 step experiences. The difference is, the medicine circle doesn't substitute one addiction for another. The medicine circle cures addiction or, at least, cures the need to continue the behaviors that cause addiction. But speaking of addiction is so limiting because sacred medicine circles can heal so many more wounds than that and can open minds and hearts in ways that are nearly unimaginable any other way.

Don, I don't expect you to be doing anything but shaking your head and saying "denial." I'm sure you think I'm completely deluded. But think about this: some people I know who were daily, and I mean all day, pot smokers shifted their pot use to once or twice a month after doing work in sacred medicine space. That change in lifestyle was permanent. Do you think that was a benefit? Do you think that was worth the risk?

I know a couple who healed their marriage after working together in sacred space under the influence of Ecstasy. They were ready to break up (with two kids) and they got over their immediate crises and have stayed together to this very day. They are now planning their retirement together. Do you think that kind of experience should be illegal? BTW, that was about 15 years ago and they haven't had a single dose of Ecstasy since. Do you think that was abuse?



... What's really sad is that in the most free nation in the world that you're too paranoid to put a bumper sticker on your car. ...

Don, paranoid is a strong word. I wouldn't be typing here to you and this community if I was paranoid. It is true that certain bumper stickers in our culture can make you a target of police, many of whom are less informed and tolerant than you are. I have no interest in being pulled over and bullied, possibly beaten and arrested because I have made a statement on my bumper the cops don't agree with.

We live in times of loss of due process, secret prisons, torture of suspects, loss of habeas corpus, and the "disappearance" of persons both domestic and foreign. I have no interest in becoming one of the missing or one of the imprisoned.

I have no desire to upset the police officers for whom I have a great deal of respect, despite my differences of opinion over some of the things they do.

It's more about keeping the peace than paranoia, but I do fear the power of people who carry guns and have very different values and opinions from my own. I do fear my government.



... Perhaps you'd like to talk about this over coffee one day, Jeff? My treat. :wink:

Well, now you're tempting me because you're talking about the one drug I'm truly addicted to. How could you have known? :wink:

For now let's see if we can reopen our lines of communication on this forum.

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

That really is my name in my profile and that really is my picture.
-Jeff
Oh my,and I thought it was Jesus!

[MsTerry]

Jeff,
I think because your posts are about honesty and Don seems to think he knows the truth, there is an inherent conflict.
As long as one thinks that truth is rigid and always the same, it is hard to be honest for denial will prevent you from seeing the reality in front of you.


Since most of my clients are reading this, I suppose I'm not that afraid of them, Don. I'm probably more honest than you suppose. That really is my name in my profile and that really is my picture. I'm not hiding anything from my community.



I'm never "holding" in my car, Don. I don't fit the profile of addict you have in mind. Remember: just because you're ignorant of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you don't understand something, doesn't make it false. Just because a spiritual tradition is different from yours doesn't make it wrong.

There is another model of drug use (as opposed to abuse) that I'd like to make you aware of. This will be hard for you since the 12 step model is that all use is abuse and there is no such thing as conscious use of substances.

There are a lot of drugs that just aren't that abusable and there is a whole class of users that are upstanding citizens, don't use habitually, and only use their drug experiences to help their lives and the lives of the people in their families and communities. I'm having a little trouble with the use of the word "drugs" because I think of these substances as "plant helpers" and "sacred medicines." Yes, some of them are illegal and tragically so. Many are legal so "holding" isn't even a crime.

Many of these folks I mentioned only use sacred medicines three or four times a year and actually never have any of the substances in their possession either in their cars or in their homes. A lot of them won't even use caffeine they're so anti-drug. But they are brave enough to use sacred medicines occasionally as a tool for self and life examination. A chemically assisted "retreat" of sorts. In a sacred circle, with sacred intent, with careful dosage, in complete safety, a whole lot of introspective work can occur. Some people I have known have miraculously healed deep wounds in their lives and with their families in sacred medicine circles. I'm sure you have seen similar "cures" in your 12 step experiences. The difference is, the medicine circle doesn't substitute one addiction for another. The medicine circle cures addiction or, at least, cures the need to continue the behaviors that cause addiction. But speaking of addiction is so limiting because sacred medicine circles can heal so many more wounds than that and can open minds and hearts in ways that are nearly unimaginable any other way.

Don, I don't expect you to be doing anything but shaking your head and saying "denial." I'm sure you think I'm completely deluded. But think about this: some people I know who were daily, and I mean all day, pot smokers shifted their pot use to once or twice a month after doing work in sacred medicine space. That change in lifestyle was permanent. Do you think that was a benefit? Do you think that was worth the risk?

I know a couple who healed their marriage after working together in sacred space under the influence of Ecstasy. They were ready to break up (with two kids) and they got over their immediate crises and have stayed together to this very day. They are now planning their retirement together. Do you think that kind of experience should be illegal? BTW, that was about 15 years ago and they haven't had a single dose of Ecstasy since. Do you think that was abuse?



Don, paranoid is a strong word. I wouldn't be typing here to you and this community if I was paranoid. It is true that certain bumper stickers in our culture can make you a target of police, many of whom are less informed and tolerant than you are. I have no interest in being pulled over and bullied, possibly beaten and arrested because I have made a statement on my bumper the cops don't agree with.

We live in times of loss of due process, secret prisons, torture of suspects, loss of habeas corpus, and the "disappearance" of persons both domestic and foreign. I have no interest in becoming one of the missing or one of the imprisoned.

I have no desire to upset the police officers for whom I have a great deal of respect, despite my differences of opinion over some of the things they do.

It's more about keeping the peace than paranoia, but I do fear the power of people who carry guns and have very different values and opinions from my own. I do fear my government.



Well, now you're tempting me because you're talking about the one drug I'm truly addicted to. How could you have known? :wink:

For now let's see if we can reopen our lines of communication on this forum.

-Jeff

[thewholetruth]

Jeff,
I think because your posts are about honesty and Don seems to think he knows the truth, there is an inherent conflict.
As long as one thinks that truth is rigid and always the same, it is hard to be honest for denial will prevent you from seeing the reality in front of you.

No one here has claimed that "truth is rigid and always the same", Ms. Terry, but you. The truth is the truth, however. It's not a matter of opinion. Things which are a matter of opinion are called "opinion"...hence, the need for the word "opinion".

And please take a look at the WaccoBB tutorial regarding posting, Ms. Terry. You're leaving an awful lot of unnecessary text in your posts. Please just include that to which you're responding. Thank you in advance. :thumbsup:

Don

[Braggi]

Oh my,and I thought it was Jesus!

Didn't Jesus say the Kingdom was within? And isn't Jesus in the Kingdom?

Therefore, Jesus is in that picture. "Within."

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

No one here has claimed that "truth is rigid and always the same", Ms. Terry, but you. The truth is the truth, however. It's not a matter of opinion. Things which are a matter of opinion are called "opinion"...hence, the need for the word "opinion".

Don
Don, you really are having a hard time comprehending another's POV.
I never said that I believe that "truth is rigid and always the same".
so you are untruthful, which means you are lying.

[MsTerry]

.

And please take a look at the WaccoBB tutorial regarding posting, Ms. Terry. You're leaving an awful lot of unnecessary text in your posts. Please just include that to which you're responding. Thank you in advance. :thumbsup:

Don
Don the truth needs to be said, and when a post like Braggi's is so full of truth that it needs repeating, I will oblige.
No mistake here !
:thumbsup:

[thewholetruth]

Jeff, I have to say this is the most civil you've ever posted to me. You've taken me completely by surprise by your tone, and frankly, I'm pleasantly shocked.

Truly, you and I have very different opinions about drug use/abuse. Despite your claims to the contrary, I simply don't believe that getting high, loaded, stoned, intoxicated, call-it-what-you-will is the real path to any of life's answers. From what you've said, you seem to be involved in an entire community that gets high to solve their problems, and interestingly, I don't know a single person for whom getting high ever solved a single problem or healed a relationship.

Perhaps that's because you live where you live, and I live where I live. Perhaps it's the neighborhoods we're in, and/or the communities we're in respectively, or perhaps it's the company we keep.

I've seen prayerful intervention, Divine intervention, and God work miracles in people's lives, unexplainably healed of cancer, lymphoma, tumors which simply disappear leaving doctors who all say "I don't know what happened, but it's gone". I've simply never heard of people taking Extasy for anything other than to get high, ever. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that Extasy has solved anyone's problems. It really sounds to me like so many of the stories that drug abusers make up in their minds' effort to rationalize their drug use, which they admit were simply delusions after they've been clean and sober for awhile.

And I love policemen and policewomen, Jeff, and I appreciate what they do for our communities, despite the apparent mental and emotional toll it appears to take on them as individuals sometimes. I love that they are willing to risk their own lives in order to make our community safer for me and my family. I don't fear policemen/policewomen at all. I love them, and I pray for them, and I pray with some of them.


There is another model of drug use (as opposed to abuse) that I'd like to make you aware of. This will be hard for you since the 12 step model is that all use is abuse and there is no such thing as conscious use of substances.

You're mistaken about that, Jeff. That isn't "the 12 Step model" at all. 12 Steppers know that sometimes we need drugs in order to overcome ailments, pain, afflictions both serious and not. But 12 Steppers also live in the Real World, Jeff, very well aware that dabbling in drugs which are not prescribed is called "drug abuse" both legally and by the rational, and is an irrefutably undeniable attempt to escape one's reality by distorting or altering one's perception of reality. It's one thing when one's culture has always used psychedelics in ritual, Jeff (Native American or South American, for example). It's a whole other thing when people like you join them. Perhaps you've concocted a way that your mind rationalizes your inability to cope with life on life's terms, but let's call it what it is...and that's what it is. No healing takes place when someone gets loaded, Jeff. It's all a delusion. If you want to believe that taking mushrooms and Extasy is "medicinal", why, you just keep right on believing that, sir, but don't expect rational people not to point to the Emperor and say "He has no clothes".


There are a lot of drugs that just aren't that abusable and there is a whole class of users that are upstanding citizens, don't use habitually, and only use their drug experiences to help their lives and the lives of the people in their families and communities. I'm having a little trouble with the use of the word "drugs" because I think of these substances as "plant helpers" and "sacred medicines." Yes, some of them are illegal and tragically so.

I've dealt with and been exposed to thousands of drug addicts and drug abusers in Denial, Jeff, and I have to tell you that your 'explanations' and theories are no different than any other drug abuser in Denial. Extasy doesn't help people, Jeff, any more than getting drunk...which doesn't help anyone, btw.



In a sacred circle, with sacred intent, with careful dosage, in complete safety, a whole lot of introspective work can occur.

One's "intent" doesn't magically change drug abuse into drug "use", Jeff. One's intent is irrelevant to their actions. Their actions are what they are, and don't change because their "intent" is "sacred". Sounds like common drug abuser/addict rationalization to me, sir. Pretty classic. I'm just being frank here.


Some people I have known have miraculously healed deep wounds in their lives and with their families in sacred medicine circles. I'm sure you have seen similar "cures" in your 12 step experiences. The difference is, the medicine circle doesn't substitute one addiction for another.

12 Steps don't substitute one addiction for another either, Jeff. The truth is that there are millions of people who have overcome their addictions through 12 Step programs, and I've not ever read about even one who has overcome them through Extasy or hallucinagens.


The medicine circle cures addiction or, at least, cures the need to continue the behaviors that cause addiction.

If your claim were true, it would be front page news, Jeff, like the 12 Steps were when they were first discovered to overcome addictions in the '30s. Again, your comments sound like classic rhetoric that drug abusers use to rationalize their drug use.


But speaking of addiction is so limiting because sacred medicine circles can heal so many more wounds than that and can open minds and hearts in ways that are nearly unimaginable any other way.

"Sacred medicine circles" have been around so long, that if what you're saying is true then I'm surprised all of us aren't involved already. How could such miraculous healing through Extasy and psychedelic mushrooms remain a secret when they are healing "so many more wounds than that and can open minds and hearts in ways that are nearly unimaginable any other way"? It's gotta be the world's best kept secret, Jeff. How do you explain that, if what you say is really true?


Don, I don't expect you to be doing anything but shaking your head and saying "denial." I'm sure you think I'm completely deluded.

You're pretty close, Jeff, but no more deluded than anyone else I deal with every day. LOL During interventions I hear the same kinds of stories from people stuck in the cycle of drug abuse they're in, as well.


But think about this: some people I know who were daily, and I mean all day, pot smokers shifted their pot use to once or twice a month after doing work in sacred medicine space. That change in lifestyle was permanent. Do you think that was a benefit? Do you think that was worth the risk?

So you're saying that pschedelic drug use cured their addiction to pot? Again, forgive me if this sounds harsh, but to be honest Jeff that's the kind of nonsense all drug abusers make up in their heads to rationalize their inability to stop abusing drugs.


I know a couple who healed their marriage after working together in sacred space under the influence of Ecstasy. They were ready to break up (with two kids) and they got over their immediate crises and have stayed together to this very day. They are now planning their retirement together. Do you think that kind of experience should be illegal? BTW, that was about 15 years ago and they haven't had a single dose of Ecstasy since. Do you think that was abuse?

Yes. It was. Call it what it is, Jeff. Was it an illegal substance they were using? Yes. Was it under a doctor's care? No. It was drug abuse. They weren't sick and they were intentionally getting high. That's all it was. Saying that getting high on Extasy saved their marriage sounds pretty deluded to me, Jeff.

Much of the rest of your post sounds like classic paranoia, afraid-of-the-government, conspiracy theorist stuff, Jeff. Most, if not all of the folks I've known who subscribe to being fearful of things of that nature are people who get loaded.


Well, now you're tempting me because you're talking about the one drug I'm truly addicted to. How could you have known? :wink:

LOL Lucky, I guess.


For now let's see if we can reopen our lines of communication on this forum.

I appreciate that, Jeff.

Don

[thewholetruth]

Don, you really are having a hard time comprehending another's POV.
I never said that I believe that "truth is rigid and always the same".
so you are untruthful, which means you are lying.

You're the only one who has posted those words here, Ms. Terry. That's what I said. Remember now? You accused me of saying them, but in reality, you are the only one who posted those words here when you falsely accused me of saying them.

Don :thumbsup:

[MsTerry]

You're the only one who has posted those words here, Ms. Terry. That's what I said. Remember now? You accused me of saying them, but in reality, you are the only one who posted those words here when you falsely accused me of saying them.

Don :thumbsup:


As long as one thinks that truth is rigid and always the same, it is hard to be honest for denial will prevent you from seeing the reality in front of you.
Since you have such hard time keeping things truthful, I give you the exact quote!
Nowhere did I say that you said that.
You are either purposely ignorant, in denial or a liar.
What's it going to be, Sir

[thewholetruth]

Again, what I said is that you are the only person who has posted those words (I've emboldened them so you can see which to words I'm referring, Ms. Terry.



Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">As long as one thinks that truth is rigid and always the same, it is hard to be honest for denial will prevent you from seeing the reality in front of you. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


If you ever decide to engage in intelligent conversation, I'll be keeping my eye out. I'm afraid that I don't really have time for the kind of useless silliness you're engaging in today, however, as much fun as it's been, Ms. Terry. My schedule is a little full now that I'm on vacation.

Don :thumbsup:


Since you have such hard time keeping things truthful, I give you the exact quote!
Nowhere did I say that you said that.
You are either purposely ignorant, in denial or a liar.
What's it going to be, Sir

[Braggi]

Jeff, I have to say this is the most civil you've ever posted to me. You've taken me completely by surprise by your tone, and frankly, I'm pleasantly shocked. ...

Don't be so shocked. That's how the other 6,900 people on Waccobb see me. :):


... Despite your claims to the contrary, I simply don't believe that getting high, loaded, stoned, intoxicated, call-it-what-you-will is the real path to any of life's answers. From what you've said, you seem to be involved in an entire community that gets high to solve their problems, and interestingly, I don't know a single person for whom getting high ever solved a single problem or healed a relationship. ...

What you've said here is key, Don. Please try to understand what you just said: "... I don't know a single person for whom getting high ever solved a single problem or healed a relationship."

I believe you don't. Well, I actually don't believe you don't, but I believe you believe you don't. Most people who have been healed through a psychedelic experience don't talk about it much; certainly not to someone with attitudes like yours. That's not a put down. I understand your experience in this area is extremely limited to the point of zero. I'm trying to change that with this exchange. I don't need you to get stoned with me to understand the potential here, but I do need you to suspend disbelief for a little while as you do research. Go to the MAPS website and read some of the amazing articles. Wait! I know one that will bring you to tears about a healing using Ecstasy. I have to find it and link to it. Later ...

Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it isn't both real and valid for thousands of other people. Your prejudice in this area is so strong it will take an extreme force of will for you to open you mind to it.

I think I have an approach you'll appreciate.

Now, you know for certain the power of your faith. You know people can be healed through application of faith and prayer and dutiful practice of your religion. Now, imagine you're in Mao's red China and your faith is illegal. All around you there are souls in torment and you so desperately desire to help them, AND you have the keys to their salvation! But, if you talk about it, if you share it, if you bring out the paraphernalia of your religion, you can be arrested, your home can be seized, all your personal property can be sold at auction, your children will be taken away and raised by people with no faith and if your wife tries to help you it's likely she will be arrested too. How would that feel?

That's how practitioners of this mode of healing feel. The government is against them. It's illegal to even do research on these substances even though they are the most promising healing tools for mental distress, addictions, depression, chronic pain, PTSD and the tormenting fear of terminal illness ever encountered by humankind. And yes, I can PROVE that. You'll have to do the reading but I can point you to the literature. You won't have time in this life to read all the studies done that had successful outcomes. So why are they still illegal? You tell me.

I don't have time to address your entire post tonight, but over the next few days I hope to. Thanks for being open to reading my responses in any case.

Below I will paste in one of the most moving accounts I've seen of an MDMA (Ecstasy) experience.

-Jeff

My Daughter’s Good Death:
A first-hand account of MDMA’s therapeutic value

By Margo ([email protected])
My daughter was adamant. She didn’t come home to die. Maya* was admitted to hospice care in my home in May, 2005. She had just turned 33. Her diagnosis was stage IV colon cancer. She was in severe pain. She had undergone major surgery, and endured three debilitating chemotherapy protocols. Physically weakened, she was not a candidate for clinical trials.
Hospice offered daily monitoring of complex pain medication. For that reason and no other, Maya consented to ‘end-oflife’ care. She said that living with me was temporary, until she was well enough to return to her home and her work as a teacher on the west coast.
While Maya’s pain medication dosage increased during her first month of hospice care, her hope remained strong. She asked and indeed insisted that those around her support her will to live.
I spent my days carrying out Maya’s wishes. I prepared organic food using strict guidelines; I ground herbs from a Tibetan doctor and poured the mixture into gel caps three times a day; herbs from a Brazilian healer accompanied each meal; an acupuncturist, a massage therapist, a chiropractor, and a Feldenkrais practitioner visited Maya regularly; guided visualizations focused on shrinking tumors and renewing health.
All these actions gave my daughter a degree of control over her life. At the same time, the practices sustained my flickering faith in her recovery.
In June 2005, a friend sent me an email about the proposed MAPS-sponsored MDMA-assisted psychotherapy research with advanced stage cancer patients. Anecdotal reports suggested that “people with terminal illnesses who have taken the drug found it easier to talk to friends and families about death and other uncomfortable subjects.” A quote from Rick Doblin stated that benefits might include “facing directly life’s great challenge, to die gracefully and in peace.”
With trepidation I mentioned the study to Maya. She was not interested in discussing end-of-life issues. In her eyes, talking about dying was like giving in to death, and giving up her will to live. During a hospitalization, she told two palliative care specialists to “please leave” because she couldn’t bear to see their expressions “that look like I’m going to die.”
Nevertheless, Maya was interested in MDMA. She didn’t view it as a drug to help her die peacefully. To the contrary, she saw it as an opportunity to trigger a transcendent source of healing, and begin her recovery.
The proposed MDMA study wasn’t ready to enroll patients, so I began to search elsewhere for a psychedelic therapist. Fueled by the urgency of Maya’s expressed intention to heal, and my unexpressed wish for her to have a good death if she had to die, I found help for my daughter.
The psychedelic “therapist,” Theo, approached Maya as a partner and a companion - not a guide - on her journey. The separation between teacher and student, and all perceptions of hierarchy fell away.
Theo was a learner, an explorer, a collaborator, and a co-creator of experience. He told stories about his own life and invited Maya to talk about hers. We discovered many connections, such as our common love of children, animals, science, and social justice.
We wove humor into every session. In this way death was included and detoxified as part of the entire flow of human experience.
Theo told a story about two lifelong friends, older men who affectionately called each other “Shithead.” When one friend was on his deathbed, the other came to visit. As he entered the room he said, “Hi Shithead.” The dying man acknowledged his loyal friend with a smile and said, “No, you’re the Shithead.” He promptly died, thus getting in the last tag and winning their lifelong game.
Before her first session, Maya could only get out of bed a few minutes at a time. Sitting or standing caused her pain to spike to unbearable levels. She longed for simple pleasures like going for a walk. During the first session with MDMA, Maya’s pain receded, her spirits soared, and she was able to walk to a park near my house and hang out with a friend.
She was hospitalized soon afterward with heart arrhythmia, a jugular vein blood clot, and an intestinal blockage, all likely caused by her pain medications. The benefits of the MDMA session appeared to be lost. Ten days in the hospital without food left Maya much weaker, more anxious, and in need of more pain medication.
Over the next two months, Maya chose to have three more psychedelic sessions: one with MDMA, one with mushrooms, and one with LSD, MDMA and marijuana. She was taking as many as twelve different prescription drugs (including ketamine**), for pain, for anxiety, for depression, for preventing blood clots, and for countering the side effects of all of the other medications. It was impossible to predict optimal psychedelic drugs and dosages. The progression of disease was another ‘unknown’. Only experience could tell us what would work.
Although there were poignant moments with each psychedelic session, the results were not as dramatic as in the initial session. On one occasion Theo asked Maya how she felt about her pain. She said that it was like an unruly child in need of attention. She would send it love. On another occasion Theo asked Maya how she felt about her cancer. She answered, “There’s a snake in my house.” Maya was able to talk about her fears metaphorically during sessions.
During the fourth session, Maya experienced strong waves of energy and shaking through her entire body. She said the trance-like state helped her shift focus away from cancer and her pain, to remember how good the rest of her body felt.
After her fourth session using a combination of psychedelics, Maya wanted to go back to MDMA, taking a higher dose to overcome the sedating effects of the other prescription medications.
Theo was away on business for nearly three weeks while Maya’s condition deteriorated rapidly. She was taking maximum doses of prescription medications with little relief; she was too weak to sit up or even to cross her legs; she lost half of her body weight; and she became incontinent.
Faced with these changes, at first Maya told me that she was afraid her will to live was slipping away, but she didn’t want me to give up on her. Within a few days, however, she began to say, “I can’t do this any more,” “I want to go fast” and “I’m ready for terminal sedation.” She held on because she hoped to have another session with Theo.
Theo returned from his trip, got my message with Maya’s request, and came to our home for a high dose MDMA session the following day. For the first time, Maya asked her father to join us. She said, “I know I’m going to die soon.”
As the MDMA took effect, Maya’s tics and spasms subsided, her labored breathing became easy and regular, and her pain vanished. We told stories, we laughed, we sang, we danced. Maya directed us to pick up her limbs and move them to the rhythm of the music. We were in love with her and she with us. We celebrated life. For approximately eight hours, there was only love.
As the MDMA wore off, Maya’s symptoms began to reappear. We discussed with Theo what to do next. We could keep Maya on low doses of MDMA and hope to control her pain, or we could alternate sedation days with MDMA days to maintain the optimum physical, emotional and spiritual benefits of the drug. We decided on the latter.
Theo gave me enough MDMA for another session and offered to provide whatever was needed for the rest of Maya’s life. The next day Maya slept fitfully. She awakened only briefly and no longer ate or drank. I looked forward to the following day when I hoped Maya would have another ecstatic experience.
When morning came, Maya could barely be awakened. She took the MDMA sublingually, and promptly went back to sleep. Her sleep became peaceful, without tics, spasms, moans or gasping for breath.
Maya’s dad joined us when I told him I believed Maya would not wake up again. For the next eight hours while Maya slept peacefully, we told stories, played games and caressed Maya with love.
At 10 p.m., Maya awoke. Her dad was stroking her and I was reading aloud from Laura Huxley, about the importance of loving touch and the nobility of death. She opened her eyes with an expression of absolute wonder, reached out to touch her dad, and died.
We are grateful beyond measure to Theo, and to those working to make psychedelic therapy legally available. We are honored to have witnessed and shared a holy experience, my daughter’s good death. •


https://www.maps.org/news-letters/v16n1-html/my_daughters_good_death.html

[MsTerry]

Don, you like running around in circles.
I know what I said, I even quoted it for you
It is you who has a problem in hearing what I am saying.
And apparently I am not the only one who is saying that..................


Again, what I said is that you are the only person who has posted those words (I've emboldened them so you can see which to words I'm referring, Ms. Terry.
Don :thumbsup:

[MsTerry]

LMAO
Jeff are you trying to save the world one soul at a time?
Even when you are reasonable (and despite your claim, you aren't always reasonable LOL) and Don acknowledges it, he is still putting you down and trying to make you look unreasonable.
1 step forward and 12 step backwards?


Don't be so shocked. That's how the other 6,900 people on Waccobb see me. :):



l (https://www.maps.org/news-letters/v16n1-html/my_daughters_good_death.html)

[thewholetruth]

LMAO
Jeff are you trying to save the world one soul at a time?
Even when you are reasonable (and despite your claim you aren't always LOL) and Don acknowledges it, he is still putting you down...

Completely untrue. What you see as "putting [him] down" is just me offering my POV. We're simply doing what's called "dialoguing", MsTerry, when two people aren't DOING BATTLE like you think YOU have to do every time you post to someone , but simply exchange thoughts and ideas. We're okay with the fact that we don't agree completely, but are simply engaged in COMMUNICATING with one another, not "trying to make" anyone "look unreasonable". You, OTOH, seem to either be kissing people's butts or doing battle with them. One or the other, with little or no intelligent dialogue in between, that seems to sum up the nature of the majority of your posts here. It even appears that you might not be capable of intelligent dialogue here, Ms. Terry. At the least, you're unwilling to engage in it with anyone who disagrees with you. You appear to think disagreement means "it's time to fight". I think disagreement is totally natural, and offers both persons the opportunity to learn something perhaps.


...and trying to make you look unreasonable.


Frankly, the only person I see here on WaccoBB right now who is unreasonable is you, Ms. Terry.

Don

[Braggi]

Once again, youtube has everything I look for:

Below is a link to Ecstasy Rising, a special put together by Peter Jennings before his death.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjvNCijeYlI&feature=related
Part II
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnmRj43ikUk&NR=1
Part III
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUNgw-WaLUc&feature=related
Part IV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfxh8oXa64M&feature=related
Part V
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7OpgfdhZMo&feature=related

It's also available on DVD. If this is important to you and you want to share it with others you can buy it here:
https://www.amazon.com/Peter-Jennings-Collection/dp/B000B64TNC/ref=pd_bbs_7?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1209790547&sr=8-7

This is "The Peter Jennings Collection" which features six Peter Jennings special programs of which Ecstasy Rising is just one. Check it out. It's good.

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

Oh Don, your posts make me so sad.
There is this scared little boy inside of you that wants to come out and be held.
I don't know what happened when you were younger, but you tried to drown it with pot, when you realized that that didn't work, you supplemented your life with Jesus.
But you still carry your own cross, what is the big lie that happened a long time ago?.
I sounds like you have helped a lot people in your life, why don't you take the time, and help yourself.
Find the truth, Don, that is all anybody can do.
Good luck to you



Frankly, the only person I see here on WaccoBB right now who is unreasonable is you, Ms. Terry.

Don

[thewholetruth]

More 'intelligent dialogue', a la Ms. Terry? LOL I rest my case...and I just shake my head.

Don :heart:


Oh Don, your posts make me so sad.
There is this scared little boy inside of you that wants to come out and be held.
I don't know what happened when you were younger, but you tried to drown it with pot, when you realized that that didn't work, you supplemented your life with Jesus.
But you still carry your own cross, the big lie that happened a long time ago.
I sounds like you have helped a lot people in your life, why don't you take the time, and help yourself.
Find the truth, Don, that is all anybody can do.
Good luck to you

[thewholetruth]

More 'intelligent dialogue', a la Ms. Terry? LOL I rest my case...and I just shake my head. An "A" for effort, Ms. Terry. I can see that you're really trying here. :thumbsup:

Don :heart:


Oh Don, your posts make me so sad.
There is this scared little boy inside of you that wants to come out and be held.
I don't know what happened when you were younger, but you tried to drown it with pot, when you realized that that didn't work, you supplemented your life with Jesus.
But you still carry your own cross, the big lie that happened a long time ago.
I sounds like you have helped a lot people in your life, why don't you take the time, and help yourself.
Find the truth, Don, that is all anybody can do.
Good luck to you

[alanora]

Pray tell, what does one do with toad mucous? Or was that just punctuating the irony? mindy


The fact that you can be arrested for possession of toad mucous is pretty obnoxious. Collecting it doesn't even hurt the toad.

[Braggi]

Pray tell, what does one do with toad mucous? Or was that just punctuating the irony? mindy

You smear it on a piece of glass and let it dry. Then you scrape it off and put it in a pipe and smoke it. It's loaded with 5MEO DMT and several other indole alkaloids. Better be lying down when it hits you. Will take you into another world for about 15 minutes.

BTW, this is a specific species of toad that doesn't live around here. All you would be psychonauts don't bother the local toads. They won't help you.

If you hear about "toad licking" or brewing up something with toad skin in it, forget about it. Smoking it is the only way that really works (or so I'm told). The rest is mythology. The good news is the stuff can be collected without harming the toads.

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

LOL
How on earth did this get discovered?
See what happens when cavemen have too much time on hand.


You smear it on a piece of glass and let it dry. Then you scrape it off and put it in a pipe and smoke it. It's loaded with 5MEO DMT and several other indole alkaloids. Better be lying down when it hits you. Will take you into another world for about 15 minutes.

BTW, this is a specific species of toad that doesn't live around here. All you would be psychonauts don't bother the local toads. They won't help you.

If you hear about "toad licking" or brewing up something with toad skin in it, forget about it. Smoking it is the only way that really works (or so I'm told). The rest is mythology. The good news is the stuff can be collected without harming the toads.

-Jeff

[Barry]

...

Truly, you and I have very different opinions about drug use/abuse. Despite your claims to the contrary, I simply don't believe that getting high, loaded, stoned, intoxicated, call-it-what-you-will is the real path to any of life's answers. From what you've said, you seem to be involved in an entire community that gets high to solve their problems, and interestingly, I don't know a single person for whom getting high ever solved a single problem or healed a relationship.

Maybe it's time you met Jeff (presumably) or myself. Then you will no longer be able to say "I don't know a single person for whom getting high ever solved a single problem or healed a relationship."



I've simply never heard of people taking Extasy for anything other than to get high, ever. If you've been "listening", then you can no longer say this as well!

Thanks for becoming a Supporting Member, Don!

[Braggi]

Another installment in the series: Answering Don's Thoughtful Post.


... From what you've said, you seem to be involved in an entire community that gets high to solve their problems, and interestingly, I don't know a single person for whom getting high ever solved a single problem or healed a relationship. ...


Don, you've lead a sheltered life, what can I say? :wink:

I can show you the "Doors of Perception," but you'll have to open them and walk through them yourself.

I need to correct your assumption that the community I'm discussing "gets high to solve their problems." It's more subtle than that. Does your community uses prayerful meditation to solve their problems? Or at least to examine their problems from an other than ordinary perspective? Isn't that one of the keys to the success of your program(s)? Do you ever have weekend retreats of a Spiritual nature?

Think of a sacred medicine circle as a method for addressing problems, or for enrichment of an existing life and lifestyle if no serious problems are present. A place where the distractions of everyday life are put aside for a few hours or days and a clear examination of directions in life, of values, of priorities can take place.

In that sacred space one of the questions that often rises into consciousness for me is, "What's important?" (That's actually a question our "civilization" makes light of. It's assumed that going to work during the day and watching TV in the evening is what's important.) The answer could be something like, "... your relationship with your brother needs work." Or, "... your mother is really hurting and you haven't offered to help." Or, "... you haven't been doing your job with all the integrity you're capable of." In some circles, people take notes at a time like this so the message isn't lost. In some circles, a "talking staff" will get passed around the room and people will share from their hearts what is coming up for them. The most surprising and amazing and profound things surface. Nearly always, with adequate preparation, sacred intention, and spiritual awareness, the most important issues of life open into full light and consciousness. These problems, that the participant might never have thought about otherwise, might never have given priority otherwise, take center stage in their lives and they proceed back to their everyday world with a new purpose to heal the "most important" things they really need to work on. Amazing things have happened; amazingly good things.

Think of the circle as a really focused group therapy session. One that lasts for several hours or even a few days (although the "chemically enhanced" part is usually only one evening).

It helps to have a skilled leader of some sort whether that be a "shaman," therapist, or just a good listener and synthesizer of the kind of information that might arise. In the circles I'm most familiar with, the leader and usually at least one other "sitter" will not imbibe the substance(s) and are just there to serve the folks taking the "journey." The sitters are there to make sure the others remain comfortable and safe.

Are you starting to see the picture? It's not the kind of "pot party" you might have indulged in while young. I went to plenty of those myself. I'm talking about a well organized and contained event with a handful of serious practitioners. These things don't happen for "fun." They're work. Serious work.

BTW, I've NEVER gotten a "message from the Spirits" at one of these events that wasn't spot on. Some have been more urgent than others, but I've never gotten bad advice. Perhaps I've just taken the time to figure out what I already knew was the best approach to issues in my life. Maybe the "voice of God" spoke to me. Maybe the "Spirits of the Plants" shared their wisdom and perspective with me. I don't need to know where the message came from. I know the circles have worked wonders in my life.


... I've simply never heard of people taking Extasy for anything other than to get high, ever. ...


Well now you know. Isn't is great to learn new things? Watch that Ecstasy Rising video. You'll learn a lot from it, but it doesn't even touch on sacred medicine circles. It does mention using Ecstasy in therapy and it's a terrible loss that isn't legal in the US. I'm sharing some pretty esoteric stuff here. I hope you feel privileged. Seriously. Most people will never learn about this stuff.


... It really sounds to me like so many of the stories that drug abusers make up in their minds' effort to rationalize their drug use, which they admit were simply delusions after they've been clean and sober for awhile. ...


That you'll just have to get over. Open your mind. It is possible.

Enough for now. More later.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

... No healing takes place when someone gets loaded, Jeff. It's all a delusion. If you want to believe that taking mushrooms and Extasy is "medicinal", why, you just keep right on believing that, sir, but don't expect rational people not to point to the Emperor and say "He has no clothes". ...

There are thousands of therapists around the world who would vehemently disagree with that Don.

Just for fun, do a google search on "Ibogaine addiction" and see what comes up. I'll do it for you:
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=ibogaine+addiction&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

BTW, ibogaine is a psychedelic drug extracted from the root of an African plant. It's been used for many generations in Africa.

-Jeff

[Valley Oak]

I knew you were God when I first saw you, Jeff! Thou art God (wink).

Edward


Didn't Jesus say the Kingdom was within? And isn't Jesus in the Kingdom?

Therefore, Jesus is in that picture. "Within."

-Jeff

[Vet-To-Pet]

Why is this still in the general/daily listings? Shouldn't this have been moved to a discussion thread after about 2 or 3 (or 4 or 5) replies/comments? It is taking up a lot of space day after day. Just wondering....
Vet to Pet/Paula





Maybe it's time you met Jeff (presumably) or myself. Then you will no longer be able to say "I don't know a single person for whom getting high ever solved a single problem or healed a relationship."

If you've been "listening", then you can no longer say this as well!

Thanks for becoming a Supporting Member, Don!

[Lenny]

That's it? You post an ad hominum argument, give two pro drug websites and toddle off? I hope you don't feel self-satisfied! I mean the "neener, neener" approach, and "study these endless (and mindless) websites" one of which is LIKE Wikipedia, which means ANYONE can post ANYTHING.
That's it? Jeff, I have some respect for your posts, but this ain't one of them. Let's just say we disagree and you've not the time to refute my previous one. I know the world outside this weekend is MUCH better than sitting in front of a mindless box.
I like your bumpersticker, except I would change it just a tad, "Don't be a dope, watch your peers learn about drugs".


And once again, your dos centavos will get you nowhere but where we've been headed since the Failed War on Some Drugs began: a police state.

Lenny, just because you're ignorant of or don't understand a science, a spiritual tradition, a sub culture or a vast network of teachers doesn't mean they don't exist. Other posters here could take that to heart.

MAPS does government authorized research on "psychedelic" medicines and outreach and education to many groups.

Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies
https://maps.org/indexA.html

Erowid is the repository of the literature of unauthorized research and experience. Yes, Lenny, you can learn all about recommended dosages here of just about anything under the sun, including drugs and plants you've never heard of and what happens when you take them in combination with other drugs. Caveat Emptor. Thousands of contributors here. It's the Wikipedia of sacred medicines (as well as the profane).

https://www.erowid.org/

I'll stop there. You can follow links on these two sites for months and never read all the wisdom and madness out there.

I've always wanted to make up a bumper sticker:

Why do you think they call it Ecstasy?
Don't be a Dope. Learn about drugs.
Erowid.org


Of course, I'd be afraid to put it on my bumper, because, like so many US citizens, I love my country, but I fear my government.
That's so sad, isn't it?
-Jeff

[Braggi]

That's it? You post an ad hominum argument, give two pro drug websites and toddle off? ...

No, that's not it. Open your mind, keep reading, and it's possible you'll learn something.

We can hope.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

That's it? You post an ad hominum argument, ...

By the way, Lenny. I made no ad hominem argument. I merely stated some facts.

-Jeff

[Barry]

Why is this still in the general/daily listings? Shouldn't this have been moved to a discussion thread after about 2 or 3 (or 4 or 5) replies/comments? It is taking up a lot of space day after day. Just wondering....
Vet to Pet/Paula
This is in the WaccoTalk category. You may be thinking back to when we were on Yahoogroups and there was a separate group for WaccoTalk.

On WaccoBB.net WaccoTalk is just another category on the board. You can unsubscribe from the whole category (see below) or just this or any other thread.

See: (these are links)

How to select Categories for Emails/Daily Digest (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=394)

How to change your subscription for a thread (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3597)

[Reportanddeport]

"Christianity-Run-Amok"? It's amazing and disgusting how "Progressives" are so comfortable in expressing their hatred for Christianity and/or Christians. But because Christianity teaches tolerance, it is SAFE to attack Christianity, so you do it because you can get away with it.

I see two big reason why there are so many prisoners in the U.S.A.: 1. Drug Laws 2. Too many laws overall.

PROGRESSIVEly more laws, PROGRESSIVEly less freedom.
PROGRESSIVEly more taxes, PROGRESSIVEly less propserity.

A law is a basis for the police to take away your life, your liberty and your money. If you agree with that, then it seems like you would want as few laws as possible.

But I expect that very soon, more people will be going to jail because they smoked in their car or apartment or they failed to list nutritional information on a menu.






A contribution to the "U.S. compared to other nations" series.

I could sing praise to these lands we live in, these peoples, the vibrant creativity among us and in us, were it not for the ignorance, the stupidity, the Christianity-Run-Amok, that stands in the way of what this country can be.

****
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/us/23prison.html?

April 23, 2008
AMERICAN EXCEPTION
Inmate Count in U.S. Dwarfs Other Nations’
By ADAM LIPTAK

The United States has less than 5 percent of the world’s population. But it has almost a quarter of the world’s prisoners.

Indeed, the United States leads the world in producing prisoners, a reflection of a relatively recent and now entirely distinctive American approach to crime and punishment. Americans are locked up for crimes — from writing bad checks to using drugs — that would rarely produce prison sentences in other countries. And in particular they are kept incarcerated far longer than prisoners in other nations.

Criminologists and legal scholars in other industrialized nations say they are mystified and appalled by the number and length of American prison sentences.

The United States has, for instance, 2.3 million criminals behind bars, more than any other nation, according to data maintained by the International Center for Prison Studies at King’s College London.

China, which is four times more populous than the United States, is a distant second, with 1.6 million people in prison. (That number excludes hundreds of thousands of people held in administrative detention, most of them in China’s extrajudicial system of re-education through labor, which often singles out political activists who have not committed crimes.)

San Marino, with a population of about 30,000, is at the end of the long list of 218 countries compiled by the center. It has a single prisoner.

The United States comes in first, too, on a more meaningful list from the prison studies center, the one ranked in order of the incarceration rates. It has 751 people in prison or jail for every 100,000 in population. (If you count only adults, one in 100 Americans is locked up.)

The only other major industrialized nation that even comes close is Russia, with 627 prisoners for every 100,000 people. The others have much lower rates. England’s rate is 151; Germany’s is 88; and Japan’s is 63.

The median among all nations is about 125, roughly a sixth of the American rate.

There is little question that the high incarceration rate here has helped drive down crime, though there is debate about how much.

Criminologists and legal experts here and abroad point to a tangle of factors to explain America’s extraordinary incarceration rate: higher levels of violent crime, harsher sentencing laws, a legacy of racial turmoil, a special fervor in combating illegal drugs, the American temperament, and the lack of a social safety net. Even democracy plays a role, as judges — many of whom are elected, another American anomaly — yield to populist demands for tough justice.

Whatever the reason, the gap between American justice and that of the rest of the world is enormous and growing.

It used to be that Europeans came to the United States to study its prison systems. They came away impressed.

“In no country is criminal justice administered with more mildness than in the United States,” Alexis de Tocqueville, who toured American penitentiaries in 1831, wrote in “Democracy in America.”

No more.

“Far from serving as a model for the world, contemporary America is viewed with horror,” James Q. Whitman, a specialist in comparative law at Yale, wrote last year in Social Research. “Certainly there are no European governments sending delegations to learn from us about how to manage prisons.”

Prison sentences here have become “vastly harsher than in any other country to which the United States would ordinarily be compared,” Michael H. Tonry, a leading authority on crime policy, wrote in “The Handbook of Crime and Punishment.”

Indeed, said Vivien Stern, a research fellow at the prison studies center in London, the American incarceration rate has made the United States “a rogue state, a country that has made a decision not to follow what is a normal Western approach.”

The spike in American incarceration rates is quite recent. From 1925 to 1975, the rate remained stable, around 110 people in prison per 100,000 people. It shot up with the movement to get tough on crime in the late 1970s. (These numbers exclude people held in jails, as comprehensive information on prisoners held in state and local jails was not collected until relatively recently.)

The nation’s relatively high violent crime rate, partly driven by the much easier availability of guns here, helps explain the number of people in American prisons.

“The assault rate in New York and London is not that much different,” said Marc Mauer, the executive director of the Sentencing Project, a research and advocacy group. “But if you look at the murder rate, particularly with firearms, it’s much higher.”

Despite the recent decline in the murder rate in the United States, it is still about four times that of many nations in Western Europe.

But that is only a partial explanation. The United States, in fact, has relatively low rates of nonviolent crime. It has lower burglary and robbery rates than Australia, Canada and England.

People who commit nonviolent crimes in the rest of the world are less likely to receive prison time and certainly less likely to receive long sentences. The United States is, for instance, the only advanced country that incarcerates people for minor property crimes like passing bad checks, Mr. Whitman wrote.

Efforts to combat illegal drugs play a major role in explaining long prison sentences in the United States as well. In 1980, there were about 40,000 people in American jails and prisons for drug crimes. These days, there are almost 500,000.

Those figures have drawn contempt from European critics. “The U.S. pursues the war on drugs with an ignorant fanaticism,” said Ms. Stern of King’s College.

Many American prosecutors, on the other hand, say that locking up people involved in the drug trade is imperative, as it helps thwart demand for illegal drugs and drives down other kinds of crime. Attorney General Michael B. Mukasey, for instance, has fought hard to prevent the early release of people in federal prison on crack cocaine offenses, saying that many of them “are among the most serious and violent offenders.”

Still, it is the length of sentences that truly distinguishes American prison policy. Indeed, the mere number of sentences imposed here would not place the United States at the top of the incarceration lists. If lists were compiled based on annual admissions to prison per capita, several European countries would outpace the United States. But American prison stays are much longer, so the total incarceration rate is higher.

Burglars in the United States serve an average of 16 months in prison, according to Mr. Mauer, compared with 5 months in Canada and 7 months in England.

Many specialists dismissed race as an important distinguishing factor in the American prison rate. It is true that blacks are much more likely to be imprisoned than other groups in the United States, but that is not a particularly distinctive phenomenon. Minorities in Canada, Britain and Australia are also disproportionately represented in those nation’s prisons, and the ratios are similar to or larger than those in the United States.

Some scholars have found that English-speaking nations have higher prison rates.

“Although it is not at all clear what it is about Anglo-Saxon culture that makes predominantly English-speaking countries especially punitive, they are,” Mr. Tonry wrote last year in “Crime, Punishment and Politics in Comparative Perspective.”

“It could be related to economies that are more capitalistic and political cultures that are less social democratic than those of most European countries,” Mr. Tonry wrote. “Or it could have something to do with the Protestant religions with strong Calvinist overtones that were long influential.”

The American character — self-reliant, independent, judgmental — also plays a role.

“America is a comparatively tough place, which puts a strong emphasis on individual responsibility,” Mr. Whitman of Yale wrote. “That attitude has shown up in the American criminal justice of the last 30 years.”

French-speaking countries, by contrast, have “comparatively mild penal policies,” Mr. Tonry wrote.

Of course, sentencing policies within the United States are not monolithic, and national comparisons can be misleading.

“Minnesota looks more like Sweden than like Texas,” said Mr. Mauer of the Sentencing Project. (Sweden imprisons about 80 people per 100,000 of population; Minnesota, about 300; and Texas, almost 1,000. Maine has the lowest incarceration rate in the United States, at 273; and Louisiana the highest, at 1,138.)

Whatever the reasons, there is little dispute that America’s exceptional incarceration rate has had an impact on crime.

“As one might expect, a good case can be made that fewer Americans are now being victimized” thanks to the tougher crime policies, Paul G. Cassell, an authority on sentencing and a former federal judge, wrote in The Stanford Law Review.

From 1981 to 1996, according to Justice Department statistics, the risk of punishment rose in the United States and fell in England. The crime rates predictably moved in the opposite directions, falling in the United States and rising in England.

“These figures,” Mr. Cassell wrote, “should give one pause before too quickly concluding that European sentences are appropriate.”

Other commentators were more definitive. “The simple truth is that imprisonment works,” wrote Kent Scheidegger and Michael Rushford of the Criminal Justice Legal Foundation in The Stanford Law and Policy Review. “Locking up criminals for longer periods reduces the level of crime. The benefits of doing so far offset the costs.”

There is a counterexample, however, to the north. “Rises and falls in Canada’s crime rate have closely paralleled America’s for 40 years,” Mr. Tonry wrote last year. “But its imprisonment rate has remained stable.”

Several specialists here and abroad pointed to a surprising explanation for the high incarceration rate in the United States: democracy.

Most state court judges and prosecutors in the United States are elected and are therefore sensitive to a public that is, according to opinion polls, generally in favor of tough crime policies. In the rest of the world, criminal justice professionals tend to be civil servants who are insulated from popular demands for tough sentencing.

Mr. Whitman, who has studied Tocqueville’s work on American penitentiaries, was asked what accounted for America’s booming prison population.

“Unfortunately, a lot of the answer is democracy — just what Tocqueville was talking about,” he said. “We have a highly politicized criminal justice system.”

[Braggi]

"Christianity-Run-Amok"? It's amazing and disgusting how "Progressives" are so comfortable in expressing their hatred for Christianity and/or Christians. But because Christianity teaches tolerance, it is SAFE to attack Christianity, so you do it because you can get away with it.

I see two big reason why there are so many prisoners in the U.S.A.: 1. Drug Laws 2. Too many laws overall.

PROGRESSIVEly more laws, PROGRESSIVEly less freedom.
PROGRESSIVEly more taxes, PROGRESSIVEly less propserity. ...

Jeff! Why do you project all this hatred on other people? And most of all, why progressives? You know, there are a great many Christian progressives? Do they all hate Christians?

I'm a progressive. I'm also a capitalist and a small l libertarian. Most of my family are Christians and I love them very much. Same with my wife's family. I want smaller government and fewer laws. However, I do want government to provide certain services in exchange for my tax money. I don't want the Failed War on Some Drugs in case you hadn't noticed my posts. I'd like to close down half of law enforcement in this country. That's how much of our law enforcement money goes to the Failed War and it's all (purposefully) ineffective at reducing drug use or crime. Nearly all of my friends are progressives. I don't know a single one who's pleased with the Failed War. I think nearly all would like to shut it down. Nearly all would prefer fewer "nanny" laws as well.

We're not that different from you. We want a nice clean place to raise our kids. We want safe streets and buildings. We'd like everyone to work for their daily bread whether that person is rich or poor. We'd like everyone to pay their fair share so the cost of living is lower for everyone.

I know these are your values and here I am stating them. Don't we agree?


"Christianity-Run-Amok"? It's amazing and disgusting how "Progressives" are so comfortable in expressing their hatred for Christianity and/or Christians. ...

Look at what you've said here and think about it. The author of the article thinks Christianity has run amok. He states it. It's his opinion, all right? He sees the Failed War on Some Drugs as an offshoot of puritanical Christianity that has created a set of laws designed to punish people for entertaining themselves in the privacy of their own homes.

Doesn't that make some kind of sense to you? The people who push these laws are the ones that have a sneaking suspicion that somewhere, someone is having a better time than they are. And that person should be punished for it!

So, can't Christianity take a little criticism from a reasonable person without it appearing as hatred to you? Is Christianity so fragile? Are you so fragile? Is your faith so fragile?

-Jeff

[Lenny]

Braggi wrote: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/orangebuttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?p=57110#post57110) And once again, your dos centavos will get you nowhere but where we've been headed since the Failed War on Some Drugs began: a police state. Lenny, just because you're ignorant of or don't understand a science, a spiritual tradition, a sub culture or a vast network of teachers doesn't mean they don't exist. Other posters here could take that to heart.-Jeff



Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Lenny wrote: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/orangebuttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?p=57383#post57383)
That's it? You post an ad hominum argument, ...
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->By the way, Lenny. I made no ad hominem argument. I merely stated some facts.-Jeff

Wow, I guess I am getting thin skinned in my old age.
Before not agreeing to your "fact" that this is a police state, I find another "fact" in your response that states that I am "ignorant, don't understand a science, a spiritual tradition, a sub culture or a vast network of teachers".
And all this under the guise that it is NOT an ad hominum position, or so you maintain! You may be right. All those years of college studying comparative mammalian physiolgy and their nervous system was for not.

Is there an issue you have? I mean one that is not bassackwards? I have heard a hateful disk jockey on the radio stating liberalism is a mental disorder, and though I find myself to be most liberal in thought, I find the above to have some indication of not thinking clearly. Thinking on pot, are we? :hello:

[Braggi]

...
Before not agreeing to your "fact" that this is a police state, I find another "fact" in your response that states that I am "ignorant, don't understand a science, a spiritual tradition, a sub culture or a vast network of teachers".
...

Well, I didn't say this is a police state. I did make a statement including the word "you" that does seem to apply, but I probably could have said "... a person ..." instead of you and it would be more general.

The "fact" still stands that just because you are unaware of something or don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is false.

Got it? Not personal. That's a general statement. It's a fact.


...
s there an issue you have? I mean one that is not bassackwards? I have heard a hateful disk jockey on the radio stating liberalism is a mental disorder, and though I find myself to be most liberal in thought, I find the above to have some indication of not thinking clearly. Thinking on pot, are we? :hello:

Well, your statements are certainly a bit convoluted from time to time. I don't know if you're thinking on pot, but you may be. I'm not.

-Jeff

[Valley Oak]

Lenny, I've taken you off of my 'Ignore List' but you're on probation. The only people on my list now are The Don, Repeat&Deny, and Handy (handy holding up a picture of Gwyneth Paltrow with one hand).

How old are you? I assumed that you were rather young because of the things you say. Something like in your twenties or thirties. I guess I was wrong. I have been wrong about two, maybe three times in my entire life and this was one of them. I am going to lose sleep tonight over this.

I realized that even though 'bassackwards' is not in Merriam Webster's dictionary, there is a valuable element of humor in it while at the same time getting the point across very clearly. It reminded me of Lewis Carroll's spoonerisms and word play, most notably in 'Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.'

Edward


Wow, I guess I am getting thin skinned in my old age.
Before not agreeing to your "fact" that this is a police state, I find another "fact" in your response that states that I am "ignorant, don't understand a science, a spiritual tradition, a sub culture or a vast network of teachers".
And all this under the guise that it is NOT an ad hominum position, or so you maintain! You may be right. All those years of college studying comparative mammalian physiolgy and their nervous system was for not.

Is there an issue you have? I mean one that is not bassackwards? I have heard a hateful disk jockey on the radio stating liberalism is a mental disorder, and though I find myself to be most liberal in thought, I find the above to have some indication of not thinking clearly. Thinking on pot, are we? :hello:

[MsTerry]

How come you put only men on your short list?
Are you a sexist?


Lenny, I've taken you off of my 'Ignore List' but you're on probation. The only people on my list now are The Don, Repeat&Deny, and Handy (handy holding up a picture of Gwyneth Paltrow with one hand).

How old are you? I assumed that you were rather young because of the things you say. Something like in your twenties or thirties. I guess I was wrong. I have been wrong about two, maybe three times in my entire life and this was one of them. I am going to lose sleep tonight over this.

I realized that even though 'bassackwards' is not in Merriam Webster's dictionary, there is a valuable element of humor in it while at the same time getting the point across very clearly. It reminded me of Lewis Carroll's spoonerisms and word play, most notably in 'Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.'

Edward

[Valley Oak]

In all honesty, the thought had not crossed my mind. But as you know, men commit most of the crimes in society so they need more punishment. Men, when compared to women, commit most of the murders (by far), very nearly 100% of the rapes, and the great majority of just about every crime you can imagine. Don't get me wrong, I'm not 'male bashing' here ;-D
After all, I am one.

Maybe there's a correlation (be careful with this word because it is not 'causal') between my ignore list and crimes and punishment in the larger society. A correlation, if I remember correctly, means that there is some undetermined connection between two data that is ambiguous. A causal relationship is much more defined or conclusive.

But I assure you, I'm not a sexist, although I'm open to hearing any rebuttals.

Edward


How come you put only men on your short list?
Are you a sexist?

[Lenny]

Well, I didn't say this is a police state. I did make a statement including the word "you" that does seem to apply, but I probably could have said "... a person ..." instead of you and it would be more general.
The "fact" still stands that just because you are unaware of something or don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is false.
Got it? Not personal. That's a general statement. It's a fact.
Well, your statements are certainly a bit convoluted from time to time. I don't know if you're thinking on pot, but you may be. I'm not. -Jeff

No harm, no foul.
You mentioned we are "heading" towards a police state and those noun/verb/participles or whatever they are kind of indicated that the process has started with these dope laws and prosecution.
The spooky fact is that there probably exists more outside of what I don't know than what I do. So I got it and that's nothing knew to me as well.
As for being convoluted? A straight shooter is what I aim to be!
Again, ain't no grande casue'

[Braggi]

...
You mentioned we are "heading" towards a police state and those noun/verb/participles or whatever they are kind of indicated that the process has started with these dope laws and prosecution.
The spooky fact is that there probably exists more outside of what I don't know than what I do. ...

Yeah, speaking of Excesses of "Democracy" the Failed War on Terror is really just the Failed War on Some Drugs on steroids. "The (un)Patriot Act" is just a few War on Drugs laws the G-men have wanted pass for decades. After 9/11 they just put them in a word processor and substituted "terrorist" for "drug dealer" and now we have wire tapping and other surveillance happening to all of us.

Yeah, we're heading toward a total surveillance society. England is pretty much already there with video cameras on every London street corner.

Slippery slope? More like we're falling over a cliff without a lifeline.

-Jeff