There has been an ongoing debate on WaccoBB.net about whether to support the offer by Sonic.net to install a city-wide free Wi-Fi network.
A couple of the threads are:
An educated City Council voted unanimously (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=33493)
Are Wi-fi and cell phones safe? (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=29655)And some recent PD articles include:
Making waves in Sebastopol (https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080413/NEWS/804130341)
Facebook joins Sebastopol Wi-Fi fray (https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080406/NEWS/804060387)
Facebook users want their WiFi (https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080404/NEWS/594365816)
At odds over Wi-Fi effects, former colleagues fume (https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080324/NEWS/803240351)
Wireless disruption (https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080324/NEWS/803240314)The debate centers around the question of whether Wi-Fi is unhealthy, at least to some people.
The issue is going to be coming back to the Sebastopol City Council (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?p=54676#post54676), and I'd like get sense of what our community thinks about it. So I've attached a poll to to this thread on the website. If you are seeing this in your Daily Digest please click on the Website/Reply button to vote in poll.
My sense is that Wi-Fi is safe, but to be honest, I have to admit I/we don't really know. And we won't really know for decades. There are studies on both sides of the issue, with most saying it's inconclusive. Wi-Fi is just the new kid on the block of the technologies that emit an Electro-Magnetic Field (EMF), joining radio, television, cell phone, pagers, and even just electricity.
However, there are many things that we do know that are not completely safe that our culture has widely embraced starting with cars and electricity.
It's a question of weighing the risks and benefits and trying to do what is possible to mitigate the risks while still getting the benefit.
I checked a few places downtown the other day and there were over a dozen private Wi-Fi signals available at each location. Most of which were "secure" which don't allow public access.
What Sonic.net is proposing to do is to add one more. The people who consider Wi-Fi to be harmful are up in arms about this.
So I propose a compromise:
Instead of covering the whole city with a public Wi-Fi system, let's limit it to downtown.
Let's have a voluntary public initiative to encourage downtown businesses to turn off their private Wi-Fi access points and use the free public system instead.I suggest limiting it to downtown because that's where it can have the most benefit.
If many downtown businesses agree to turn off their access points then the additional Wi-Fi signal from Sonic will be more than offset by a decrease in private signals. The over all level of Wi-Fi and other EMF may still grow, though, because if the increasing deployment of this technology over all. However, by a coordinated cooperation of downtown businesses it will be lower than it would be otherwise.
Plus there is the additional benefit for the people who are concerned about Wi-Fi of knowing where the hot spots are, rather than be scattered all over over town, sometimes being just on the other side of the wall from where they are standing.
Of course, for businesses to agree to take up this initiative, they must be assured that the public Wi-Fi system will be secure, fast, and reliable, which it will be.
So I think with a little cooperation we can have the best of both worlds, free public Wi-Fi that doesn't cause an increase of Wi-Fi levels throughout the downtown. If this can be achieved, I cannot see a reason why the city would not support it.
Please vote in the poll attached to this thread on the website for whether you support free wi-fi in all of Sebastopol, just the downtown or not all. You do not need to be a Sebastopol resident to vote in this poll.
shellebelle
04-15-2008, 07:44 PM
No lets not compromise since the original (as far as I can tell) was just downtown to begin with!
Lets listen to scientists not energy healers and psychologists.
Lets talk to electrical engineers, lets talk to real experts who have dedicated their livelihood to technology.
Lets stop being the laughing stock of the web and instead open our arms and be progressive!
Lets make sure that our kids have the ability to have technology jobs in Sonoma in the years to come.
And if one person or 500 persons out of the 80,000 or so base that supports the city has an issue then let them take responsibility for themselves!
On a side note of little known knowledge:
I am an energy healer and this energy healer wants her wifi! WiFi has no negative effect on my ability to heal and in truth might help! What a nice conduit for energy!
There has been an ongoing debate on WaccoBB.net about whether to support the offer by Sonic.net to install a city-wide free Wi-Fi network.
Lorrie
04-16-2008, 09:32 AM
Well I don't live in Sebastopol, but I am for it. I have been told by two electrical engineers that it is safe and fine. They have told me that with an amount of conviction!
:2cents:
Barry
04-16-2008, 04:13 PM
Article published - Apr 16, 2008
Sebastopol to reconsider downtown Wi-Fi network
Council may vote in August on free service offered by Sonic.net
By ROBERT DIGITALE
THE PRESS DEMOCRAT
With high school students calling on them to salvage the town's reputation, Sebastopol council members announced Tuesday that they will reconsider their refusal to accept free wireless Internet service in the city.
The elected officials took no formal action. But Mayor Craig Litwin said that the council would put the issue on a future agenda at the request of Councilman Larry Robinson, who was absent Tuesday.
Litwin said he was considering an August hearing on Wi-Fi, partly to give the council time to complete its work on a redevelopment plan for the northeast portion of the city.
The announcement pleased several students, who nonetheless made clear they thought it was irrational for the council last month to deny free Wi-Fi service based on fears of adverse health effects.
"Sebastopol has been drawing disbelief and ridicule from news sources and scientists around the globe," said Analy High freshman Gordon Allen. "Do we really want a reputation as the tin-foil-hat-carrying city of Sebastopol? I don't."
The council made headlines internationally last month when it rescinded an agreement that would have allowed Sonic.net to install free Wi-Fi in the city center as it has done in Santa Rosa and Petaluma.
The council had agreed to allow the service but reversed course after lobbying by critics of Wi-Fi who contend that the radiation emitted by wireless equipment, cell phones and similar devices can cause harmful health effects.
That decision prompted a counter effort by those who want the free service and who maintain that the preponderance of scientific and government authorities deem Wi-Fi safe.
On Tuesday Litwin announced plans to reconsider the issue before a half-dozen speakers came to the podium.
Analy High sophomore Jeff Mich told the council that Wi-Fi supporters had collected 1,100 signatures, including 500 at the high school.
Mich and other students said the free Wi-Fi service was the environmentally sound approach, would provide Internet access to those who couldn't otherwise support it and would help the town's economy by drawing more people downtown. All half-dozen speakers supported the free service.
The debate in part concerns the level of safety a device must demonstrate before it can be put into common use. Wi-Fi critics suggest that Sebastopol should take a precautionary approach because of ongoing scientific studies that are raising questions about the possible harmful effects of electromagnetic radiation from Wi-Fi.
But supporters suggest that enough research has been conducted for the World Health Organization to conclude that there is "no convincing scientific evidence" of adverse health effects from wireless networks and base stations.
Barry Chertov, who runs the online community bulletin board called WaccoBB.net, said we won't really know for decades whether Wi-Fi is safe. But he maintained there are many things that "we do know that are not completely safe and our culture has widely embraced them, starting with cars."
He suggested there may be ways to mitigate potential risks while still getting the benefits of Wi-Fi, possibly by limiting the free service to downtown and by a "public initiative" to encourage downtown businesses to turn off their private Wi-Fi signals and use the Sonic service instead. That could result in a decrease in Wi-Fi signals.
I'm pretty sure that downtown is all they were offering in the first place.
[QUOTE=Barry;55382]
So I propose a compromise:
Instead of covering the whole city with a public Wi-Fi system, let's limit it to downtown.
Let's have a voluntary public initiative to encourage downtown businesses to turn off their private Wi-Fi access points and use the free public system instead.I suggest limiting it to downtown because that's where it can have the most benefit.
Braggi
04-19-2008, 11:46 PM
... I suggest limiting it to downtown because that's where it can have the most benefit.
There has been a citywide and beyond wireless network in Sebastopol. It's called NoCat. Perhaps that's why life expectancy continues to increase.
-Jeff
Zeno Swijtink
04-21-2008, 05:16 PM
My sense is that Wi-Fi is safe, but to be honest, I have to admit I/we don't really know. And we won't really know for decades. There are studies on both sides of the issue, with most saying it's inconclusive. Wi-Fi is just the new kid on the block of the technologies that emit an Electro-Magnetic Field (EMF), joining radio, television, cell phone, pagers, and even just electricity.
However, there are many things that we do know that are not completely safe that our culture has widely embraced starting with cars and electricity.
The analogy with cars is a good one, and it shows that this needs not to be a polar issue, black/white, pro/contra.
We don't accept the safety record of yesteryear's cars anymore, but require seat belts, crumple zones, energy absorbing windshields, airbags, etc.
Still, driving is dangerous and many people die in this country in a traffic accident. Apparently a 737 plane crash everyday. We would not accept that safety record in an air travel! A simple black box that records driving data could reduce fatalities by 20 to 60%. See the NHTSA Event Data Recorder Research Web site (https://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/edr-site/). Sweden has a Vision Zero initiative (https://www.vv.se/filer/35555/vision_zero_0604.pdf), "the image of a future in which no one will be killed or serious injured." Sweden has already an accident rate 30% below ours.
Similarly, further research on EMFs could provide ideas on how to design systems for lower and lower impact. It may not be an issue of whether, but of how. A Vision Zero for EMFs.
nbolmer
04-23-2008, 07:24 PM
The voluntary business shutdown is misguided. The vast, vast majority of wifi equipment is squarely in the homes of residents. 24-7, many (very likely most, if not all) residents of Sebastopol, and just about everywhere else, are bathed in glorious 802.11 whenever they are at home. Even in Occidental, I get 4 different wifi signals at all times. All of this talk of offsetting is completely futile and moot. Wifi is everywhere, and will continue to be, unless a city-wide ordinance is enacted, preventing residences from owning wifi equipment, (including most modern laptops). This is inane.
Zeno Swijtink
04-25-2008, 12:59 PM
The analogy with cars is a good one, and it shows that this needs not to be a polar issue, black/white, pro/contra.
We don't accept the safety record of yesteryear's cars anymore, but require seat belts, crumple zones, energy absorbing windshields, airbags, etc.
Still, driving is dangerous and many people die in this country in a traffic accident. Apparently a 737 plane crash everyday. We would not accept that safety record in an air travel! A simple black box that records driving data could reduce fatalities by 20 to 60%. See the NHTSA Event Data Recorder Research Web site (https://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/edr-site/). Sweden has a Vision Zero initiative (https://www.vv.se/filer/35555/vision_zero_0604.pdf), "the image of a future in which no one will be killed or serious injured." Sweden has already an accident rate 30% below ours.
Similarly, further research on EMFs could provide ideas on how to design systems for lower and lower impact. It may not be an issue of whether, but of how. A Vision Zero for EMFs.
For this reason I think that the WaccoBB.net Free Wi-Fi float in the Apple Blossom Parade tomorrow in Sebastopol trivializes this whole debate. Not a joke anyone will learn anything from, which is one function of humor I think.
shellebelle
04-25-2008, 01:29 PM
I disagree. I think that we show that two sides can agree to disagree and spoof the issue much like the political satires while still being a catalyst for those who are truly exploring both sides.
I think it shows everyone you can have fun, share a laugh about what has become a heated subject all while continuing to disagree.
In a world full of anger isn't it nice to show children and even adults this is how to disagree peacefully, joyfully even and to some respect agree to laugh at ourselves!
For this reason I think that the WaccoBB.net Free Wi-Fi float in the Apple Blossom Parade tomorrow in Sebastopol trivializes this whole debate. Not a joke anyone will learn anything from, which is one function of humor I think.
Zeno Swijtink
04-25-2008, 01:38 PM
I disagree. I think that we show that two sides can agree to disagree and spoof the issue much like the political satires while still being a catalyst for those who are truly exploring both sides.
I think it shows everyone you can have fun, share a laugh about what has become a heated subject all while continuing to disagree.
In a world full of anger isn't it nice to show children and even adults this is how to disagree peacefully, joyfully even and to some respect agree to laugh at ourselves!
I don't disagree with that, but it misses my point, which was that this is not a question of either/or, this is not a pro/con issue. Now if there was a way to bring that out in the float that would be great.
shellebelle
04-25-2008, 01:48 PM
I disagree again it is a pro/con issue.
It is a pro - yes I want WiFi installed in Sebastopol, yes I want continuous access.
It is a con - no I don't want WiFi installed in Sebastopol, no I don't want continuous access.
It is also a social issue. Yes - Access is important for my quality of life and No - WiFi impedes my quality of life.
I don't disagree with that, but it misses my point, which was that this is not a question of either/or, this is not a pro/con issue. Now if there was a way to bring that out in the float that would be great.
Zeno Swijtink
04-25-2008, 02:13 PM
I disagree again it is a pro/con issue.
It is a pro - yes I want WiFi installed in Sebastopol, yes I want continuous access.
It is a con - no I don't want WiFi installed in Sebastopol, no I don't want continuous access.
It is also a social issue. Yes - Access is important for my quality of life and No - WiFi impedes my quality of life.
My argument that this is not a pro/con issue is posted above at #9.
shellebelle
04-25-2008, 02:15 PM
Above? #9 is below oh wait I have different preferences. And thats my point!
My argument that this is not a pro/con issue is posted above at #9.
Zeno Swijtink
04-25-2008, 02:26 PM
Above? #9 is below oh wait I have different preferences. And thats my point!
You don't drive around in Ford Model T, a Tin Lizzie, do you? And you took Ralph Nader's campaign to heart and don't drive a Chevrolet Corvair?
We're in the Tin Lizzie times of EMF communications.
shellebelle
04-25-2008, 02:44 PM
Yes, actually I have driven around in a Ford Model T 1927, a 1931 Model A, and a 1967 Ford 150 Camper Special all classics! In fact if I want to go to lunch with my father I still sometimes ride in a Model T. His CPOD is bad though not as often as we used to.
See, the point remains, "MY" preferences!
Oh I see Tin Lizzie times - okay so WiFi will do nothing but get better and more responsible!!! I Agree!
But why wait - I mean yeh Zeno walk wherever you like but try pulling a plow! Its much easier with a Model T Tractor! So why not enjoy the benefits! Or are you afraid at 25 miles an hour that there Model T/WiFi will run ya over?
You don't drive around in Ford Model T, a Tin Lizzie, do you? And you took Ralph Nader's campaign to heart and don't drive a Chevrolet Corvair?
We're in the Tin Lizzie times of EMF communications.
Braggi
04-25-2008, 03:03 PM
... Similarly, further research on EMFs could provide ideas on how to design systems for lower and lower impact. It may not be an issue of whether, but of how. A Vision Zero for EMFs.
We've already made it there (almost).
It's called wi-fi.
-Jeff
Zeno Swijtink
04-25-2008, 03:37 PM
We've already made it there (almost).
It's called wi-fi.
-Jeff
It seems shellebelle is wrong: there is only one side to this issue :):
Braggi
04-25-2008, 07:30 PM
It seems shellebelle is wrong: there is only one side to this issue :):
Well, there seems to be only one side backed by science.
What I'm saying is that wi-fi is the lowest EMF device we've come up with to date that does the deed. It's environmentally sound because it uses far less copper wire, which is expensive, energy intensive and polluting in every phase of creating and installing it.
-Jeff
nicofrog
05-04-2008, 08:08 PM
This is all GREAT youall!;
Not because wi-fi is "good" or "Bad" but because Sebastopol CARES
and pays attention!
We ( and I dare say we ,even though I've only chosen this town for a year and a half! ) QUESTION the status quo!!
What ever everyone is doing, be it horseless carriages;(strongly, and perhaps wisely resisted by many in those days) Horses can steer in the dark, when the "driver" is drunk,or even asleep.WHAT EVER any group suddenly sees as value is worthy of question.
What if, as some people have suspected, it WAS cell towers,and
wi fi style emissions that are disorienting bees,, bees seem so small and insignificant ,who needs food,when we have i-pods! What community would be first to notice,care, and DO something to begin a change in the positive direction??
Face book...oooo eee cell phones,so we can be sure never to make eye contact with those in the real world right around us..
e mail so I can spend half my day absorbing cathode rays when I could be out there in nature getting skin cancer instead!
Live as well as we can,die anyway....I love being in a town that THINKS before it leaps, or at least while it leaps, into the 30th century.
The analogy of cars is great, because confusers,like cars were in the 20's, are in their early years.They've only bin around since the early 60's in this "modern form" I remember the promises of the 3 day work week, the elimination of the need for paperwork!
25th or 30th year of amazing tech. cars did not even have seat belts at this stage.
I do not want a car that decides what lights it wants on when, beeps at me,has electric doors or automatic anything, I am to much of a control freak. I like my 55 chevy,just wish it could have a fusion motor.
No opinion, just plenty of appreciation for
passionate attention to perspective.
good luck with the wi-fi hope I find a lap top cheap and learn to type... Nico
Burrowowl
06-13-2008, 03:43 PM
Looks like Santa Fe is moving forward with their municipal Wi-Fi deployment in the face of allergy concerns:
SANTA FE, N.M. - The City Council has unanimously approved a plan to provide wireless Internet service in libraries and other city buildings, over the objections of those who say they are electrically sensitive.
Freee wireless will be available by next year at three public libraries, a convention center still under construction, city hall, the municipal airport and two recreation centers.
"My first reaction is, it's a disaster. My second reaction is, they're inviting a lawsuit," said Arthur Firstenberg, a leading opponent of the proposal.
San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom said Wednesday that citywide wireless Internet access is slowly becoming a reality despite political infighting - and that 144,000 residents will be surfing the Web for free by the end of the year at no cost to the city.
Standing on the rooftop of a Mission District single-room-occupancy hotel, Newsom pointed to a "repeater antenna" - which looks like an oversized, white computer mouse - and said the devices someday will blanket the city with free Wi-Fi.
The devices are made by a South of Market company named Meraki, and hundreds now dot the rooftops and balconies of private residences, nonprofit hotels and public housing projects.
Meraki is donating the devices plus free Internet access to any San Francisco resident who wants them. Neighbors within a block's radius of the device can tap into the Internet for free, too. Blanketing the city is expected to require 15,000 devices.
The company, founded two years ago, is using San Francisco as a testing ground to bolster its name and reputation so it can sell more devices elsewhere.
The mayor's office is working to ensure that SRO hotels and public housing projects are some of the first to receive the devices because residents there typically don't have Internet access. Five public housing projects now have the technology, and 13 more are expected to have it by the end of the year, Newsom said.
Newsom is calling the idea Wi-Fi 2.0 - a nod to his high-profile but unsuccessful first attempt to bridge the "digital divide" between San Franciscans who take Internet access for granted and low-income people who can't easily log on to e-mail, find job listings or surf news sites.
[snip] - see full article here: https://tinyurl.com/3ou4d2 (https://tinyurl.com/3ou4d2)
handy
06-19-2008, 11:01 AM
It seems to me that downtown Sebastopuddle is already halfway saturated with open wi-fi signal. Complete saturation will likely occur within a couple more years. This is being accomplished entirely by free market businesses and charitable individuals. Let it work; people self organize.
Inviting government involvement when it is utterly unnecessary is just opening Pandora's lunchbox and spilling the can of worms on purpose. No sympathy to any who welcome malicious socialism.
Braggi
06-19-2008, 11:24 AM
... Inviting government involvement when it is utterly unnecessary is just opening Pandora's lunchbox and spilling the can of worms on purpose. No sympathy to any who welcome malicious socialism.
The Sebastopol system under discussion isn't socialist it's free market. The service provider is a private company offering the service for free to be supported by advertising (if I understand correctly) and the option to upgrade to additional and faster services.
Sebastopol is neither going to collect money from taxpayers nor pay for the service.
-Jeff
handy
06-19-2008, 01:43 PM
The Sebastopol system under discussion isn't socialist it's free market. The service provider is a private company offering the service for free to be supported by advertising (if I understand correctly) and the option to upgrade to additional and faster services.
Sebastopol is neither going to collect money from taxpayers nor pay for the service.
-Jeff
Sooo.... why is it being discussed in a city council meeting if it is none of their business?
PeriodThree
06-19-2008, 01:59 PM
Sonic wanted to put the wifi equipment on city owned utility (or light?) poles and so needed city permission.
Sooo.... why is it being discussed in a city council meeting if it is none of their business?
handy
06-19-2008, 02:53 PM
Sonic wanted to put the wifi equipment on city owned utility (or light?) poles and so needed city permission.
Ah. so if Dane offers to mount the antennae on private buildings, that should solve the problem, right?
mimmy
09-08-2008, 07:08 PM
The company, founded two years ago, is using San Francisco as a testing ground to bolster its name and reputation so it can sell more devices elsewhere.
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adamhadm
11-11-2008, 09:24 PM
Hi-
We used a microwave frequency detector outside of Whole Foods and the plaza. The detector will buzz rapidly when put near a cooking microwave oven. The results by Whole Foods and the plaza were the same-it's like standing in front of a microwave. If that's what people want-heaven help us.
Karl Frederick
11-13-2008, 02:39 AM
Hi Adam,
Thanks for contributing your experience to the discussion. I believe it's likely to be difficult to know what E-M fields you were picking up with an instrument that uses only a buzzer to indicate the presence of a microwave signal.
To get a clear idea, you'd need an appropriately band-limited detector -- a spectrum analyzer, for example -- to identify the frequencies and power levels. Although microwave ovens and wi-fi signals both operate at 2.4 GHz, if the buzzer detector has a relatively wide range of frequencies that it responds to, it may also be picking up other signals beside those you're interested in.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the format of the signal is also considered a possible cause of biological effects. It's not an easy thing, to settle the question of long-term biological effects, unless your mind is inclined towards accepting the standard story. I'm inclined to listen to the folks who claim wi-fi has an effect on us. They're not a bunch of looneys in aluminum foil hats; there IS evidence of something going on.
One of these days we'll understand more about this area of subtle interactions bewteen E-M fields and our bodies. For the time being, my home wi-fi router is staying unplugged.
Hi-
We used a microwave frequency detector outside of Whole Foods and the plaza. The detector will buzz rapidly when put near a cooking microwave oven. The results by Whole Foods and the plaza were the same-it's like standing in front of a microwave. If that's what people want-heaven help us.