Jesus Prevents Illegal Immigration [Archive]

thewholetruth

04-15-2008, 06:19 AM

Why would anyone object to securing America's borders when (1) our government openly supports the blatant exploitation of illegal foreign laborers willing to work for less than minimum wage, (2) every terrorist in the world knows that Mexico is the back door for entering America illegally, (3) the economic impact of 12 million illegal aliens using services here but not contributing to supporting the services here is draining our arses and sucking up OUR taxes, leaving far less resources for Americans who need them, and (4) insisting that immigrants acknowledge that they are here and be accountable for being & working here will undoubtedly result in less criminal activity?

Why on Earth would we go spend millions or billions helping Mexican farmers when our own system is so broken and dysfunctional that farmers here get paid BIG BUCKS NOT to grow food?

Why not, instead, spend the money you propose on investigating which Senators and Representatives are guilty of pandering to special interests, investigating how many of our supposed "public servants" have gotten RICH SINCE BECOMING supposed "public servants" and then trace where their new-found money CAME FROM?

Why on Earth do we bother with Border Check Points when millions of people avoid them and walk/drive in anywhere BUT at the Border Check Points?

If you're against securing our borders, then why not just abandon all the check points, Jeff? Any potentially intelligent responses popping up in your head right about now? (As opposed to any all-too-typical sarcastic b.s. that might have popped up as you read, I mean. ;-)

"Imagine if we spent the money going to "the fence" improving agriculture in Mexico."

LOL Or better yet, imagine if we spent the money in America, for anything, for the benefit of Americans. It is, after all, American money you're talking about that you want us to spend in Mexico, Jeff.

Don

One of many ways to slow immigration.

Imagine if we spent the money going to "the fence" improving agriculture in Mexico.

-Jeff

https://www.goldmanprize.org/2008/northamerica

"In the Mixteca region of Oaxaca, Mexico, Jesús León Santos leads an unprecedented land renewal and economic development program that employs ancient indigenous agricultural practices to transform this barren, highly eroded area into rich, arable land. With his organization, the Center for Integral Small Farmer Development in the Mixteca (CEDICAM), a democratic, farmer-led local environmental organization, León has united the area’s small farmers. Together, they have planted more than one million native-variety trees, built hundreds of miles of ditches to retain water and prevent soil from eroding, and adapted traditional Mixteca indigenous practices to restore the regional ecosystem. Efforts are paying off as barren hillsides turn green again, aquifers are recharged, and the high rate of migration slows as indigenous farming families find they are able to make a living at home."

phooph

04-15-2008, 01:59 PM

Illegal immigration in the US was on the decline untill the passage of NAFTA which began the flood of cheap, subsidized foods into Latin America. It has exploded since then. The number of Mexican farmers put out of business was extimated to be around 1.5 million a couple of years ago. Your taxpayer dollars are being used to put these people out of business.

As someone from an agricultural background who owns farm land I can tell you that American farmers are heavily subsidized by taxpayer dollars. Some know how to play the subisdy game well enough to become very wealthy and are able to sell their products at well below the cost of production. If you are thinking family farm here, you need to understand that the family farms are being swallowed up by or becoming large corporate entities.

With the various international trade agreements, markets have been expanded globaly. Cheap US agricultural products are flooding markets in developing countries putting local farmers out of business and leading to an increase in impoverishment. A US subsidized chicken is cheaper in a market in Africa than a locally produced one. The flood of US grown, heavily subsidized cotton has collapsed world cotton prices driving cotton farmers out of business around the world. I don't know if you remember the incident in Mexico a few years ago, but a 54 year old Korean farmer stabbed himself to death on the steps of the building where the WTO was meeting to protest having lost his farm as a result of first world subsidized crops depressing prices. These people can't compete because their governments do not subsidize their products and in developing countries there is no money for such programs. This is economic colonialism.

Building a fence will not do much to stop the inflow. It will simply create incentives to build more tunnels, and border guards are not so well paid that they don't find bribes attractive.

Pres. Bush has signed agreements with Mexico and Canada that set in motion the move toward erasing our borders. The powers that be want cheap labor. They also need poor Americans to keep joining the military to for a shot out of poverty. There is no incentive for the power structure to care about what is happening to the average American. As long as our members of congress and whoever sits in the White House, are more concerned about meeting the needs of those with deep pockets who's donations they need, our needs will not be addressed. The only thing that will break that chain is to eliminate their access to campaign donations. That would require the public funding of campaigns. Who do you think will vote for that in congress?

PS: it is estimated that illegal immigrants pay around 4 billion in FICA taxes but they cannot collect social securty.

Ruth

Why would anyone object to securing America's borders when (1) our government openly supports the blatant exploitation of illegal foreign laborers willing to work for less than minimum wage, (2) every terrorist in the world knows that Mexico is the back door for entering America illegally, (3) the economic impact of 12 million illegal aliens using services here but not contributing to supporting the services here is draining our arses and sucking up OUR taxes, leaving far less resources for Americans who need them, and (4) insisting that immigrants acknowledge that they are here and be accountable for being & working here will undoubtedly result in less criminal activity?

Why on Earth would we go spend millions or billions helping Mexican farmers when our own system is so broken and dysfunctional that farmers here get paid BIG BUCKS NOT to grow food?

Why not, instead, spend the money you propose on investigating which Senators and Representatives are guilty of pandering to special interests, investigating how many of our supposed "public servants" have gotten RICH SINCE BECOMING supposed "public servants" and then trace where their new-found money CAME FROM?

Why on Earth do we bother with Border Check Points when millions of people avoid them and walk/drive in anywhere BUT at the Border Check Points?

If you're against securing our borders, then why not just abandon all the check points, Jeff? Any potentially intelligent responses popping up in your head right about now? (As opposed to any all-too-typical sarcastic b.s. that might have popped up as you read, I mean. ;-)

"Imagine if we spent the money going to "the fence" improving agriculture in Mexico."

LOL Or better yet, imagine if we spent the money in America, for anything, for the benefit of Americans. It is, after all, American money you're talking about that you want us to spend in Mexico, Jeff.

Don

Valley Oak

04-15-2008, 02:18 PM

Excellent post, Ruth. You really laid it out like it is in a summary fashion.

Thanks,

Edward

Illegal immigration in the US was on the decline untill the passage of NAFTA which began the flood of cheap, subsidized foods into Latin America. It has exploded since then. The number of Mexican farmers put out of business was extimated to be around 1.5 million a couple of years ago. Your taxpayer dollars are being used to put these people out of business.

As someone from an agricultural background who owns farm land I can tell you that American farmers are heavily subsidized by taxpayer dollars. Some know how to play the subisdy game well enough to become very wealthy and are able to sell their products at well below the cost of production. If you are thinking family farm here, you need to understand that the family farms are being swallowed up by or becoming large corporate entities.

With the various international trade agreements, markets have been expanded globaly. Cheap US agricultural products are flooding markets in developing countries putting local farmers out of business and leading to an increase in impoverishment. A US subsidized chicken is cheaper in a market in Africa than a locally produced one. The flood of US grown, heavily subsidized cotton has collapsed world cotton prices driving cotton farmers out of business around the world. I don't know if you remember the incident in Mexico a few years ago, but a 54 year old Korean farmer stabbed himself to death on the steps of the building where the WTO was meeting to protest having lost his farm as a result of first world subsidized crops depressing prices. These people can't compete because their governments do not subsidize their products and in developing countries there is no money for such programs. This is economic colonialism.

Building a fence will not do much to stop the inflow. It will simply create incentives to build more tunnels, and border guards are not so well paid that they don't find bribes attractive.

Pres. Bush has signed agreements with Mexico and Canada that set in motion the move toward erasing our borders. The powers that be want cheap labor. They also need poor Americans to keep joining the military to for a shot out of poverty. There is no incentive for the power structure to care about what is happening to the average American. As long as our members of congress and whoever sits in the White House, are more concerned about meeting the needs of those with deep pockets who's donations they need, our needs will not be addressed. The only thing that will break that chain is to eliminate their access to campaign donations. That would require the public funding of campaigns. Who do you think will vote for that in congress?

PS: it is estimated that illegal immigrants pay around 4 billion in FICA taxes but they cannot collect social securty.

Ruth

thewholetruth

04-15-2008, 02:43 PM

What a plethora of information, Ruth! Thank you for that. NAFTA is straight up wrong and is part of the plan for one world government (i.e. everybody wants to rule the world).

I'm trackin' with ya on all of that. The only thing I take issue with you is this:

YOU SAID: "Building a fence will not do much to stop the inflow. It will simply create incentives to build more tunnels, and border guards are not so well paid that they don't find bribes attractive."

And making murder illegal won't do much to stop murderers from killing people. It's only created the incentive to try harder to get away with it. And making drugs illegal won't do much to stop drug addicts from using dope. It has simply created incentives to find ways not to get caught. But refusing to protect our borders because we IMAGINE it won't work isn't a logical or viable answer. We need to do what we can. Doing nothing about our open borders isn't working. I think you'll agree on that. And what amazes me is that the vast majority of Americans want to secure our borders. It's the government - aka the Wannabe Future Rulers of the World - who refuses to do anything about it. And so what do we do about that? We keep electing the same idiots to office over and over and over. We have the power to effect change. We're just too placated and lazy to actually take a stand, collectively speaking.

Don

Illegal immigration in the US was on the decline untill the passage of NAFTA which began the flood of cheap, subsidized foods into Latin America. It has exploded since then. The number of Mexican farmers put out of business was extimated to be around 1.5 million a couple of years ago. Your taxpayer dollars are being used to put these people out of business.

As someone from an agricultural background who owns farm land I can tell you that American farmers are heavily subsidized by taxpayer dollars. Some know how to play the subisdy game well enough to become very wealthy and are able to sell their products at well below the cost of production. If you are thinking family farm here, you need to understand that the family farms are being swallowed up by or becoming large corporate entities.

With the various international trade agreements, markets have been expanded globaly. Cheap US agricultural products are flooding markets in developing countries putting local farmers out of business and leading to an increase in impoverishment. A US subsidized chicken is cheaper in a market in Africa than a locally produced one. The flood of US grown, heavily subsidized cotton has collapsed world cotton prices driving cotton farmers out of business around the world. I don't know if you remember the incident in Mexico a few years ago, but a 54 year old Korean farmer stabbed himself to death on the steps of the building where the WTO was meeting to protest having lost his farm as a result of first world subsidized crops depressing prices. These people can't compete because their governments do not subsidize their products and in developing countries there is no money for such programs. This is economic colonialism.

Building a fence will not do much to stop the inflow. It will simply create incentives to build more tunnels, and border guards are not so well paid that they don't find bribes attractive.

Pres. Bush has signed agreements with Mexico and Canada that set in motion the move toward erasing our borders. The powers that be want cheap labor. They also need poor Americans to keep joining the military to for a shot out of poverty. There is no incentive for the power structure to care about what is happening to the average American. As long as our members of congress and whoever sits in the White House, are more concerned about meeting the needs of those with deep pockets who's donations they need, our needs will not be addressed. The only thing that will break that chain is to eliminate their access to campaign donations. That would require the public funding of campaigns. Who do you think will vote for that in congress?

PS: it is estimated that illegal immigrants pay around 4 billion in FICA taxes but they cannot collect social securty.

Ruth

Reportanddeport

04-15-2008, 07:32 PM

So your point is that we Americans should spend our money improving the lives of Mexicans in Mexico instead of spending it on improving the lives of Americans in America?

phooph

04-15-2008, 08:20 PM

People smuggling is a very profitable business, just like drug smuggling. We currently spend more on drug interdiction than was spent on the entire US budget of the late 70s but we still have drugs coming into the country in large quantities. Those who study such things say that the only thing that will stop the drug flow is to eliminate the demand. Same goes for illegals.

Please tell me how we are going to police several thousand miles of coastline and border?

And, who's going to set this up? The government has no interest in doing so because the deep pockets that fund the politicians have no interest. So talking about this is sort of moot. The majority of Americans may want something done, but until the people the politicians care about want it it's not going to happen.

Ruth

What a plethora of information, Ruth! Thank you for that. NAFTA is straight up wrong and is part of the plan for one world government (i.e. everybody wants to rule the world).

I'm trackin' with ya on all of that. The only thing I take issue with you is this:

YOU SAID: "Building a fence will not do much to stop the inflow. It will simply create incentives to build more tunnels, and border guards are not so well paid that they don't find bribes attractive."

And making murder illegal won't do much to stop murderers from killing people. It's only created the incentive to try harder to get away with it. And making drugs illegal won't do much to stop drug addicts from using dope. It has simply created incentives to find ways not to get caught. But refusing to protect our borders because we IMAGINE it won't work isn't a logical or viable answer. We need to do what we can. Doing nothing about our open borders isn't working. I think you'll agree on that. And what amazes me is that the vast majority of Americans want to secure our borders. It's the government - aka the Wannabe Future Rulers of the World - who refuses to do anything about it. And so what do we do about that? We keep electing the same idiots to office over and over and over. We have the power to effect change. We're just too placated and lazy to actually take a stand, collectively speaking.

Don

Reportanddeport

04-15-2008, 10:12 PM

Just because you can't cure a problem is no reason not to fight it. Perfection is not possible. You're gonna die, but you still try to extend your life.
You DO WHAT YOU CAN.
And eliminating the demand is SUCH A COPOUT and a PHONY one at that. It is more unlikely than eliminating the supply.
People will ALWAYS want to get stoned, especially when they're young, ignorant and stupid.
I have always wanted to arrest Americans who hire illegal aliens and I still do. In fact, the American traitors have ALWAYS been my number 1 enemy in the illegal immigration problem, because they're the ones bringing the illegals in.
Our borders can be policed by the Border Patrol and National Guard. All you gotta do is pay for THAT, instead of paying hospitals for treating illegal aliens. I'LL do the patrols as a private security guard myself. And you can easily make military bases on the borders for a large, military presence.

Bush, Boxer, Feinstein, Woolsey and Pelosi have no interest in securing the borders nor deporting illegal aliens, so they will have to be replaced. But around the country, communities are starting to enforce local laws to do what Bush won't do. But eventually, if enough Americans actually want a secure country and jobs for Americans, then it will happen. As it stands now, well-intentioned Libs are THE BEST FRIENDS THE CORPORATIONS EVER HAD.

Talking about it is hardly "moot". If I already know what is the right thing to do, then I certainly don't need others to agree with me for me to do what is right.

You MUST inform the people FIRST, if you are to turn them against those who misrepresent us.

People smuggling is a very profitable business, just like drug smuggling. We currently spend more on drug interdiction than was spent on the entire US budget of the late 70s but we still have drugs coming into the country in large quantities. Those who study such things say that the only thing that will stop the drug flow is to eliminate the demand. Same goes for illegals.

Please tell me how we are going to police several thousand miles of coastline and border?

And, who's going to set this up? The government has no interest in doing so because the deep pockets that fund the politicians have no interest. So talking about this is sort of moot. The majority of Americans may want something done, but until the people the politicians care about want it it's not going to happen.

Ruth

Dynamique

04-16-2008, 11:22 PM

maybe a better way to go about it (and think about it) is to use our resources to make life better for people -- not corporations -- on BOTH SIDES of our southern border!

So your point is that we Americans should spend our money improving the lives of Mexicans in Mexico instead of spending it on improving the lives of Americans in America?

Dynamique

04-16-2008, 11:28 PM

And one of the best ways to make the interests of "the people" rather than the donors what the politicos care about is publicly financed political campaigns!

Check out Public Campaign (https://www.publicampaign.org/) and the Calif. Clean Money Campaign (https://www.caclean.org/) for more info.

- Kirsten

...And, who's going to set this up? The government has no interest in doing so because the deep pockets that fund the politicians have no interest. So talking about this is sort of moot. The majority of Americans may want something done, but until the people the politicians care about want it it's not going to happen.

Ruth

phooph

04-16-2008, 11:38 PM

Undoubtedly.

Now how do we pry the politicians away from their donors long enough to get them to vote for it? Their donors won't give up that sort of influence without a fight and it could get very nasty.

Ruth

And one of the best ways to make the interests of "the people" rather than the donors what the politicos care about is publicly financed political campaigns!

Check out Public Campaign (https://www.publicampaign.org/) and the Calif. Clean Money Campaign (https://www.caclean.org/) for more info.

- Kirsten

Reportanddeport

04-17-2008, 12:28 AM

OK, then you keep sending your paychecks to Mexico, and I'll spend mine on my life here in the U.S.A. :wink: But I don't want any of MY tax dollars going to develop Mexico's economy. But send as much of your own money as you want to.

maybe a better way to go about it (and think about it) is to use our resources to make life better for people -- not corporations -- on BOTH SIDES of our southern border!

Reportanddeport

04-17-2008, 12:34 AM

How about public financing paid for by all the taxpayers that agreed to it? And the rest of us can use our money for stuff like food, rent, gas and LIVING OUR OWN LIVES AS WE SEE FIT.

You Commies LOOOOOVE spending OTHER people's money. :heart:

And one of the best ways to make the interests of "the people" rather than the donors what the politicos care about is publicly financed political campaigns!

Check out Public Campaign (https://www.publicampaign.org/) and the Calif. Clean Money Campaign (https://www.caclean.org/) for more info.

- Kirsten

Reportanddeport

04-17-2008, 12:39 AM

You DON'T interfere with their contributors, because it's none of your business. But knowing who is buying who is necessary. Full, public disclosure of all the political whores should be required.

What political party is raking in the most cash this Presidential election season? Does anyone know?

Now how do we pry the politicians away from their donors long enough to get them to vote for it? Their donors won't give up that sort of influence without a fight and it could get very nasty.

Ruth[/quote]

thewholetruth

04-17-2008, 06:13 AM

We vote them out of office and vote in real people who support it. We can accomplish this in the next election. We simply vote out everyone who has any experience in the legislature and elect regular folks to serve us, regular folks who have clearly stated that they support it. We can run this private campaign from the internet both locally and nationally. It is the COLLECTIVE WISDOM of our representatives which is supposed to be guiding our nation, yet every Senator/Rep. wants you to believe that they are something special, which is how they get your vote. The problem with that is that THEY start to believe they're special, and entitled to take certain liberties which don't serve the PEOPLE they represent.

The truth is that it's the PROCESS that works, and it's the PEOPLE WE ELECT who have learned to MANIPULATE the process that have screwed up our system of government. An endless stream of bills are submitted to Congress every year, and WHY?!? Because politicians think it validates their existence, that they're "working on important legislation" when really they're pretending that they're working. Most of these bills come with hidden bills inside of bills, designed to protect special interests and donors' pet interests and the truth is, don't we have ENOUGH LAWS ALREADY?!?

Don

Undoubtedly.

Now how do we pry the politicians away from their donors long enough to get them to vote for it? Their donors won't give up that sort of influence without a fight and it could get very nasty.

Ruth

phooph

04-17-2008, 09:15 AM

We already have full disclosure mapped in several ways:

https://www.followthemoney.org/
https://fundrace.huffingtonpost.com/
https://www.maplight.org/?gclid=CO2_vNi44pICFQ7PYAodEQPw5g
https://www.opensecrets.org/parties/index.asp

Campaign financing is supposed to be public.

If you watch someone taking a fat bribe, excuse me, "contribution" from the head of a corporation that wants to keep cheap illegal immigrant labor flowing into the country is it still not a bribe?

Is that politician going to prioritize your agenda because he/she knows you see what is going on or is that politician going to give greater consideration to the person who produced the fat check?

Where do you think the saying 'Money talks' originated?

Now why is it none of our business that our political process is corrupted by monied special interests that profit from activities that are detrimental to the ordinary folks in this country?

Ruth

You DON'T interfere with their contributors, because it's none of your business. But knowing who is buying who is necessary. Full, public disclosure of all the political whores should be required.

What political party is raking in the most cash this Presidential election season? Does anyone know?

Now how do we pry the politicians away from their donors long enough to get them to vote for it? Their donors won't give up that sort of influence without a fight and it could get very nasty.

Ruth[/QUOTE]

phooph

04-17-2008, 11:30 AM

I have lived long enough to see the "bums" thrown out multiple times and replaced by "the people's" candidates only to see them transform into the next set of bums. They find themselves in a system that requires the very behavior we abhor in order to get anything done. It demonstrates the assertion by Bucky Fuller that there are no bad people, only bad systems (and I would protests that occasionally there are bad people).

Money is not the only corrupting influence in the halls of power. Threats of violence and public embarrassment are also corrupting influences. When Elliot Spitzer became too ambitious in going after people on Wall Street, they spilled the beans on his addiction to prostitutes. There is a cautionary term now used in politcal circles in relation to challenging the powers-that-be: being Wellstoned.

"Great nations are simply the operating fronts of behind-the-scenes, vastly ambitious individuals who have become so effectively powerful because of their ability to remain invisible while operating behind the national scenery." – R. Buckminster Fuller

We vote them out of office and vote in real people who support it. We can accomplish this in the next election. We simply vote out everyone who has any experience in the legislature and elect regular folks to serve us, regular folks who have clearly stated that they support it. We can run this private campaign from the internet both locally and nationally. It is the COLLECTIVE WISDOM of our representatives which is supposed to be guiding our nation, yet every Senator/Rep. wants you to believe that they are something special, which is how they get your vote. The problem with that is that THEY start to believe they're special, and entitled to take certain liberties which don't serve the PEOPLE they represent.

The truth is that it's the PROCESS that works, and it's the PEOPLE WE ELECT who have learned to MANIPULATE the process that have screwed up our system of government. An endless stream of bills are submitted to Congress every year, and WHY?!? Because politicians think it validates their existence, that they're "working on important legislation" when really they're pretending that they're working. Most of these bills come with hidden bills inside of bills, designed to protect special interests and donors' pet interests and the truth is, don't we have ENOUGH LAWS ALREADY?!?

Don

Reportanddeport

04-17-2008, 01:59 PM

OK, then if there is full disclosure, then you know who is buying who and you know who not to vote for.

I don't want to work one minute longer to support someone's campaign, whether I agree with the candidate or not. YOU do it with YOUR money. Just get your laws off of me and get your hands off my wallet.

The politicians ARE being bought off by the corps that want illegal aliens. And there is a general awakening among the American people to that fact. So what a representative republic will do is to get rid of the politicians that represent the interests of the corps over the interests of the people.

The votes politicians make will depend on whatever they think will get them re-elected. Politicians are surfers, riding the waves of the public into office. And if your political whore is winning because your whore bought the best advertizing agency, then it shows that the people are swayed by slick advertizing over the substance of the candidate.

You can and SHOULD learn all there is to know about who is buying who, and spread that information to whoever will listen. And people will vote according to who and what they believe.

We already have full disclosure mapped in several ways:

https://www.followthemoney.org/
https://fundrace.huffingtonpost.com/
https://www.maplight.org/?gclid=CO2_vNi44pICFQ7PYAodEQPw5g
https://www.opensecrets.org/parties/index.asp

Campaign financing is supposed to be public.

If you watch someone taking a fat bribe, excuse me, "contribution" from the head of a corporation that wants to keep cheap illegal immigrant labor flowing into the country is it still not a bribe?

Is that politician going to prioritize your agenda because he/she knows you see what is going on or is that politician going to give greater consideration to the person who produced the fat check?

Where do you think the saying 'Money talks' originated?

Now why is it none of our business that our political process is corrupted by monied special interests that profit from activities that are detrimental to the ordinary folks in this country?

Ruth

[/quote]

Reportanddeport

04-17-2008, 02:21 PM

I push an agenda that is something that I believe in that does not necessarily lead to my popularity, while a typical politician pushes an agenda that IS INTENDED to lead to his popularity. So it seems to me that a poltician's greatest interest is in him or herself, and not in acting in accordance with YOUR wishes or any other individual's.

It seems to me that if all you ever vote for is bums, then all you're ever gonna get is bums. It is because YOU THE VOTER can't tell who is and is not a bum that you keep voting for a string of bums.

There ARE bad people. And I think you are one of them, because you deny they exist, thus giving scum the cover it needs to survive.

Eliot Spitzer is a good example of scum that you want to protect. Whether he served my interests or your interests, Spitzer was a scumbag and it's good that he's gone.

If invisible people are more powerful than visible people, then I don't see what complaining about it is going to accomplsh, since no one knows who you're talking about, what they did, where they are or why they do what they do. It seems to me that your BELIEF in invisble people is an invention within your mind to help explain the things you don't understand.

It seems to me that conspiracy theories begin when the facts end but your mind keeps going.

I have lived long enough to see the "bums" thrown out multiple times and replaced by "the people's" candidates only to see them transform into the next set of bums. They find themselves in a system that requires the very behavior we abhor in order to get anything done. It demonstrates the assertion by Bucky Fuller that there are no bad people, only bad systems (and I would protests that occasionally there are bad people).

Money is not the only corrupting influence in the halls of power. Threats of violence and public embarrassment are also corrupting influences. When Elliot Spitzer became too ambitious in going after people on Wall Street, they spilled the beans on his addiction to prostitutes. There is a cautionary term now used in politcal circles in relation to challenging the powers-that-be: being Wellstoned.

"Great nations are simply the operating fronts of behind-the-scenes, vastly ambitious individuals who have become so effectively powerful because of their ability to remain invisible while operating behind the national scenery." – R. Buckminster Fuller

phooph

04-17-2008, 07:51 PM

Most people are politically lazy and unwilling to look beyond campaign advertizing and the latest debate to figure out what's really going on. Last night's debate between Clinton and Obama had the highest viewer rating of any debate in history, yet it took a distant second place to all the sitcoms on other channels. How do you address apathy?

OK, then if there is full disclosure, then you know who is buying who and you know who not to vote for.

I don't want to work one minute longer to support someone's campaign, whether I agree with the candidate or not. YOU do it with YOUR money. Just get your laws off of me and get your hands off my wallet.

The politicians ARE being bought off by the corps that want illegal aliens. And there is a general awakening among the American people to that fact. So what a representative republic will do is to get rid of the politicians that represent the interests of the corps over the interests of the people.

The votes politicians make will depend on whatever they think will get them re-elected. Politicians are surfers, riding the waves of the public into office. And if your political whore is winning because your whore bought the best advertizing agency, then it shows that the people are swayed by slick advertizing over the substance of the candidate.

You can and SHOULD learn all there is to know about who is buying who, and spread that information to whoever will listen. And people will vote according to who and what they believe.

[/QUOTE]

phooph

04-17-2008, 08:00 PM

Me thinks you misunderstand me.

I have seen many "real people" voted into office to replace bums, but in order to work within the politcal process, which is a battleground between competing interests, they end up becoming the next bums. The political system requires co-operation and compromise. If the "real people" don't work with the system they are marginalized and can get nothing done.

I recommend you have a conversation with a local politician about the political process. Better yet, run for a local office and if you get elected you can learn about it from the inside.

Ruth

PS: Maybe you can explain to me how you possibly draw some of the conclusions about me that you do. Where did I say I liked Eliott Spitzer? How do you know who I vote for?

I push an agenda that is something that I believe in that does not necessarily lead to my popularity, while a typical politician pushes an agenda that IS INTENDED to lead to his popularity. So it seems to me that a poltician's greatest interest is in him or herself, and not in acting in accordance with YOUR wishes or any other individual's.

It seems to me that if all you ever vote for is bums, then all you're ever gonna get is bums. It is because YOU THE VOTER can't tell who is and is not a bum that you keep voting for a string of bums.

There ARE bad people. And I think you are one of them, because you deny they exist, thus giving scum the cover it needs to survive.

Eliot Spitzer is a good example of scum that you want to protect. Whether he served my interests or your interests, Spitzer was a scumbag and it's good that he's gone.

If invisible people are more powerful than visible people, then I don't see what complaining about it is going to accomplsh, since no one knows who you're talking about, what they did, where they are or why they do what they do. It seems to me that your BELIEF in invisble people is an invention within your mind to help explain the things you don't understand.

It seems to me that conspiracy theories begin when the facts end but your mind keeps going.

Dark Shadows

04-17-2008, 09:44 PM

Braggi

04-17-2008, 10:03 PM

We vote them out of office and vote in real people who support it. We can accomplish this in the next election. ... [snip]

That would be nice if it were true. Sadly, the system supports the incumbent so much more than a challenger, it's very difficult to dislodge the old guard. Public financing of elections is about the only thing that's likely to improve that problem.

... politicians think it validates their existence, that they're "working on important legislation" when really they're pretending that they're working. Most of these bills come with hidden bills inside of bills, designed to protect special interests and donors' pet interests and the truth is, don't we have ENOUGH LAWS ALREADY?!?

Look at that Don! We pretty much totally agree on all this. How about a congressional prohibition on "riders" on bills. No more hidden legislation? No more "fast track" of any bill? That way they can't shove all this crap down out throats without public debate. But would it grind Congressional action to a halt? I doubt it, but it would be a good thing to slow all these very expensive decisions down a whole lot.

Imagine if they couldn't hide all that spending?

-Jeff

babaruss

04-17-2008, 10:16 PM

Braggi

04-17-2008, 10:21 PM

I do want to comment on the cost effectiveness of investing in Mexican infrastructure (as in, teaching them how to build topsoil and other permaculture techniques versus building a fence as long as the Great Wall.

Perhaps you all could just ponder the costs of helping out the peasants in Mexico (probably a few millions ... let's be generous and make it a few millions a year) versus the cost of a fence a thousand miles long: many billions and remember all the ongoing expenses including law enforcement personnel to police it, repair persons to fix the holes that will be cut into it nightly, jails to hold all the offenders captured, processing centers to deal with the invaders and on and on. It will cost hundreds of billions over its lifetime. For what? Who will be helped by this monument to our failed trade policies and mismanagement of our own labor forces? What a blight on the face of the planet. Imagine the deaths of all the migratory land animals that take that route. It's so sick.

Anyway, imagine which method will keep more Mexicans in Mexico? Good employment on their own land serving their own markets (once Nafta and GATT are written off) or putting one more obstacle in the way of people that have overcome hundreds of obstacles already to make it that far. Think they'll give up at that point for some chain link wire? Will they just say to themselves, "Wow! A wire fence. Surely I must turn around and go back to Guatemala." I doubt it. How stupid to think it would do anything to slow illegal immigration.

The fence is nothing more than another tax that will be funneled to a large corporation to build (Boeing, IIRC) and several others to staff and maintain. Maybe the contract for that will go to Blackwater.

Oh well. I went and wrote about it anyway. Just some quick thoughts.

-Jeff

thewholetruth

04-17-2008, 11:03 PM

"Public financing of elections is about the only thing that's likely to improve that problem."

I agree.

"Look at that Don! We pretty much totally agree on all this. How about a congressional prohibition on "riders" on bills. No more hidden legislation? No more "fast track" of any bill? That way they can't shove all this crap down out throats without public debate. But would it grind Congressional action to a halt? I doubt it, but it would be a good thing to slow all these very expensive decisions down a whole lot.

Imagine if they couldn't hide all that spending?"

I hear ya, Jeff. I'm right alongside you on this one. It was bound to happen sooner or later, that we'd find agreement on something. LOL There are probably more things than this upon which we agree, but for now, let me not dillute the sweetness of this surprising, yet pleasant discovery. :wink:

Don

That would be nice if it were true. Sadly, the system supports the incumbent so much more than a challenger, it's very difficult to dislodge the old guard. Public financing of elections is about the only thing that's likely to improve that problem.

Look at that Don! We pretty much totally agree on all this. How about a congressional prohibition on "riders" on bills. No more hidden legislation? No more "fast track" of any bill? That way they can't shove all this crap down out throats without public debate. But would it grind Congressional action to a halt? I doubt it, but it would be a good thing to slow all these very expensive decisions down a whole lot.

Imagine if they couldn't hide all that spending?

-Jeff

Valley Oak

04-18-2008, 01:05 AM

Sharp observations, Jeff. The idea of Blackwater getting the contract to police the border is chilling. Made me wonder if we might start seeing cases of mysterious, mass executions of Mexicans along the border or some such thing. With all that experience in Iraq and many of the border areas being desert, well, hey, it would be as if they never left!

Edward

I do want to comment on the cost effectiveness of investing in Mexican infrastructure (as in, teaching them how to build topsoil and other permaculture techniques versus building a fence as long as the Great Wall.

Perhaps you all could just ponder the costs of helping out the peasants in Mexico (probably a few millions ... let's be generous and make it a few millions a year) versus the cost of a fence a thousand miles long: many billions and remember all the ongoing expenses including law enforcement personnel to police it, repair persons to fix the holes that will be cut into it nightly, jails to hold all the offenders captured, processing centers to deal with the invaders and on and on. It will cost hundreds of billions over its lifetime. For what? Who will be helped by this monument to our failed trade policies and mismanagement of our own labor forces? What a blight on the face of the planet. Imagine the deaths of all the migratory land animals that take that route. It's so sick.

Anyway, imagine which method will keep more Mexicans in Mexico? Good employment on their own land serving their own markets (once Nafta and GATT are written off) or putting one more obstacle in the way of people that have overcome hundreds of obstacles already to make it that far. Think they'll give up at that point for some chain link wire? Will they just say to themselves, "Wow! A wire fence. Surely I must turn around and go back to Guatemala." I doubt it. How stupid to think it would do anything to slow illegal immigration.

The fence is nothing more than another tax that will be funneled to a large corporation to build (Boeing, IIRC) and several others to staff and maintain. Maybe the contract for that will go to Blackwater.

Oh well. I went and wrote about it anyway. Just some quick thoughts.

-Jeff

Braggi

04-18-2008, 08:43 AM

...
Imagine if they couldn't hide all that spending?"

I hear ya, Jeff. I'm right alongside you on this one. It was bound to happen sooner or later, that we'd find agreement on something. ...

It's not the first time: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?p=53469#post53469

-Jeff

Reportanddeport

04-18-2008, 04:33 PM

Well I would rather watch sitcoms than Obama and Clinton, but it's not because I don't care about America, it's because I don't care about Obama and Clinton.

If people are going to be apathetic, then you can't FORCE them to care. You can only present them with news and information and hope that they pay attention and will do the right thing. I have done that in this forum.

Most people are politically lazy and unwilling to look beyond campaign advertizing and the latest debate to figure out what's really going on. Last night's debate between Clinton and Obama had the highest viewer rating of any debate in history, yet it took a distant second place to all the sitcoms on other channels. How do you address apathy?

[/quote]

Reportanddeport

04-18-2008, 05:20 PM

My speculation is that when someone is elected to office, they no longer feel obligated to those who put them into office, but they feel that they have to ride whatever political wave is going by at the time in order to get re-elected. So they become less of what they were and more of what they think they have to be.

But I guess SOMEONE is doing the right thing for their electorate, because lots of people I despise keep getting re-elected.

"Local" politicians don't listen to Conservative, American Patriots like me. They don't need me.

I won't run for office. I don't have the desire for it, plus I think I am too radical to get elected. But of course I'm very politically active.

You said SOMETHING like, "Prosecutors went after Spitzer on his prostitution addiction because he had gone after Wall Street people". It sounded like you're a fan of Spitzer.

Me thinks you misunderstand me.

I have seen many "real people" voted into office to replace bums, but in order to work within the politcal process, which is a battleground between competing interests, they end up becoming the next bums. The political system requires co-operation and compromise. If the "real people" don't work with the system they are marginalized and can get nothing done.

I recommend you have a conversation with a local politician about the political process. Better yet, run for a local office and if you get elected you can learn about it from the inside.

Ruth

PS: Maybe you can explain to me how you possibly draw some of the conclusions about me that you do. Where did I say I liked Eliott Spitzer? How do you know who I vote for?

Reportanddeport

04-18-2008, 05:29 PM

A country without borders is a no-man's-land and/or a war zone. Do YOU have any space of your own? If yes, then draw the line and defend it. If no, then people will be trampling all over you.

What is the purpose of a border anyway? To keep people out who originally migrated from here? You may say it's to protect people. Protect them from what? We have laws here that make criminals out of citizens, so if there are cirminals on both sides of the border, what on earth could you be trying to secure?

Reportanddeport

04-18-2008, 05:34 PM

No, YOU spend the money because YOU want to do it. Just leave me out of it. Money comes from work, and I don't want to work for someone else's pipe dreams.

I'm a mean-spirited and selfish Conservative, because I work hard and I want to keep what I earn.
You're a noble and enlightened Liberal, because I work hard and YOU want to keep what I earn.

I do want to comment on the cost effectiveness of investing in Mexican infrastructure (as in, teaching them how to build topsoil and other permaculture techniques versus building a fence as long as the Great Wall.

Perhaps you all could just ponder the costs of helping out the peasants in Mexico (probably a few millions ... let's be generous and make it a few millions a year) versus the cost of a fence a thousand miles long: many billions and remember all the ongoing expenses including law enforcement personnel to police it, repair persons to fix the holes that will be cut into it nightly, jails to hold all the offenders captured, processing centers to deal with the invaders and on and on. It will cost hundreds of billions over its lifetime. For what? Who will be helped by this monument to our failed trade policies and mismanagement of our own labor forces? What a blight on the face of the planet. Imagine the deaths of all the migratory land animals that take that route. It's so sick.

Anyway, imagine which method will keep more Mexicans in Mexico? Good employment on their own land serving their own markets (once Nafta and GATT are written off) or putting one more obstacle in the way of people that have overcome hundreds of obstacles already to make it that far. Think they'll give up at that point for some chain link wire? Will they just say to themselves, "Wow! A wire fence. Surely I must turn around and go back to Guatemala." I doubt it. How stupid to think it would do anything to slow illegal immigration.

The fence is nothing more than another tax that will be funneled to a large corporation to build (Boeing, IIRC) and several others to staff and maintain. Maybe the contract for that will go to Blackwater.

Oh well. I went and wrote about it anyway. Just some quick thoughts.

-Jeff

phooph

04-19-2008, 10:58 AM

When someone gets elected to office they have to do two things: 1.) Produce results for the electorate, 2.) Raise money for the next election.

1.) In order to produce results they must garner support among other members of the legislative body. That means making friends and influencing people. If they are new to the job they don't yet have a constituency inside the legislative body. They must create one in order to have their bills supported. That means they must support other people's pet bills. It's all about deal making. Anyone who just charges ahead with their own agenda will soon find themselves without support within the larger body. They will not be able to get their pet legislation supported and their disappointed constituents back home will dump them in the next election. Politics is not a forum of common sense, wisdom, and good will. It is a battle ground of competing interests.

2.) Once your guy or gal gets into office they have to start raisning money for the next election. On the national level this runs into tens of thousands of dollars a day. If they get a phone call from you asking about that anti-illegal immigration legislation you are both concerned about you may hear about how hard they are working on it. If they know that you have donated a few hundred dollars to their campaign they will be grateful. If they get a call from the owner of the very large vinyard down the way from you who is concerned about how that anti-illegal immigration is going to negatively impact their business they may express much less enthusiasm for it. After all, the vinyard owner can offer many thousands of dollars toward the next campaign. Since large donations must be made to the party, the party will lean on your legislator to "do the right thing."

If I said Elliot Spitzer ran a red light and got broadsided by a truck would that mean that I was supporting Eliott Spitzer? I am just reporting a fact. That the man spent a small fortune over a ten year period on hookers and went untouched until he became over enthusiastic about looking like the anti-corruption, law and order, probably next candidate for governor or senator, is telling. Wall Street and its equivalents throughout the country are the real power in the country. They may allow you to take down the worst of the bad boys, but they have their limits.

My speculation is that when someone is elected to office, they no longer feel obligated to those who put them into office, but they feel that they have to ride whatever political wave is going by at the time in order to get re-elected. So they become less of what they were and more of what they think they have to be.

But I guess SOMEONE is doing the right thing for their electorate, because lots of people I despise keep getting re-elected.

"Local" politicians don't listen to Conservative, American Patriots like me. They don't need me.

I won't run for office. I don't have the desire for it, plus I think I am too radical to get elected. But of course I'm very politically active.

You said SOMETHING like, "Prosecutors went after Spitzer on his prostitution addiction because he had gone after Wall Street people". It sounded like you're a fan of Spitzer.

Braggi

04-19-2008, 03:08 PM

...
I'm a mean-spirited and selfish Conservative, because I work hard and I want to keep what I earn.
...

I suppose this means you have no use for the tens of billions of dollars of wasted expense a thousand mile long fence would represent? Is that what you're saying?

...
You're a noble and enlightened Liberal, because I work hard and YOU want to keep what I earn.

Hey, I'm not Boeing or Blackwater or any kind of government contractor or employee. For what it's worth, I've never gotten a dollar from the Govt. for welfare, unemployment, AFDC, food stamps or any other program. I'm sure as a self proclaimed conservative you haven't either.

All that said, I'm not too proud to accept money if you want to send me some. Send me an email and I'll give you my mailing address. You're right. I would like to keep it.

-Jeff

Reportanddeport

04-19-2008, 03:47 PM

Well, Ronald Reagan produced results for me, while Bush TRIED HARDER to make the U.S.A. dependant on the rest of the world, which is the opposite of what I wanted.
So, I don't have a lot of personal experience with polticians producing results for me. And I don't think most politicians WANT to produce results, I think they just want to get re-elected is all.

"Garner support"? NOPE, I ain't gonna do that. That's why I will never run and never get elected, because I won't play ball. If I had to win people over to my ideas AFTER I was elected, then I'd NEVER get anything done.

You mentioned politicians LISTENING to people and maybe reacting to complaints. But I've NEVER had that experience. Boxer, Feinstein and Bush NEVER do what I want, they strive to do the exact opposite, ALWAYS. In fact, Boxer has the RUDEST, COLDEST, most uncaring and indifferent staff of all the politicians I've called.

But you're right, MONEY TALKS, and little patriots like me can take a hike. So a lot of illegal aliens means lots of workers, low wages for ALL workers but big profits for those in a position to exploit the workers, and those profits are then re-invested in campaign contributions to keep the borders open.

And until enough people catch on to the idea that illegal immigration is kept going to keep EVERYONE'S wages down, then you will keep voting for open borders candidates.

Wall Street may be the real power in the U.S.A., but if they are, I think it is because money talks and bullshit walks.
When you have money, you can throw away those ideals of national security, law and order and justice, and just focus on INVESTMENTS, like campaign contributions.

Yes, ABSOLUTELY you were showing support for Spitzer. You said that somebody in government knew about his addiction to prostitution, but let it slide until he went after Wall Street too much.
It is my understanding that Spitzer was caught unexpectedly in a prostitution investigation that was run by law enforcement, not Wall Street

When someone gets elected to office they have to do two things: 1.) Produce results for the electorate, 2.) Raise money for the next election.

1.) In order to produce results they must garner support among other members of the legislative body. That means making friends and influencing people. If they are new to the job they don't yet have a constituency inside the legislative body. They must create one in order to have their bills supported. That means they must support other people's pet bills. It's all about deal making. Anyone who just charges ahead with their own agenda will soon find themselves without support within the larger body. They will not be able to get their pet legislation supported and their disappointed constituents back home will dump them in the next election. Politics is not a forum of common sense, wisdom, and good will. It is a battle ground of competing interests.

.

2.) Once your guy or gal gets into office they have to start raisning money for the next election. On the national level this runs into tens of thousands of dollars a day. If they get a phone call from you asking about that anti-illegal immigration legislation you are both concerned about you may hear about how hard they are working on it. If they know that you have donated a few hundred dollars to their campaign they will be grateful. If they get a call from the owner of the very large vinyard down the way from you who is concerned about how that anti-illegal immigration is going to negatively impact their business they may express much less enthusiasm for it. After all, the vinyard owner can offer many thousands of dollars toward the next campaign. Since large donations must be made to the party, the party will lean on your legislator to "do the right thing."

If I said Elliot Spitzer ran a red light and got broadsided by a truck would that mean that I was supporting Eliott Spitzer? I am just reporting a fact. That the man spent a small fortune over a ten year period on hookers and went untouched until he became over enthusiastic about looking like the anti-corruption, law and order, probably next candidate for governor or senator, is telling. Wall Street and its equivalents throughout the country are the real power in the country. They may allow you to take down the worst of the bad boys, but they have their limits.

phooph

04-19-2008, 04:25 PM

I agree with much of what you say.

As for Elliott Spitzer here is what another patriotic conservative had to say about him. This guy is a former president of the Moral Majority and a staunch Reaganite:
https://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2008/cbarchive_20080314.html

Well, Ronald Reagan produced results for me, while Bush TRIED HARDER to make the U.S.A. dependant on the rest of the world, which is the opposite of what I wanted.
So, I don't have a lot of personal experience with polticians producing results for me. And I don't think most politicians WANT to produce results, I think they just want to get re-elected is all.

"Garner support"? NOPE, I ain't gonna do that. That's why I will never run and never get elected, because I won't play ball. If I had to win people over to my ideas AFTER I was elected, then I'd NEVER get anything done.

You mentioned politicians LISTENING to people and maybe reacting to complaints. But I've NEVER had that experience. Boxer, Feinstein and Bush NEVER do what I want, they strive to do the exact opposite, ALWAYS. In fact, Boxer has the RUDEST, COLDEST, most uncaring and indifferent staff of all the politicians I've called.

But you're right, MONEY TALKS, and little patriots like me can take a hike. So a lot of illegal aliens means lots of workers, low wages for ALL workers but big profits for those in a position to exploit the workers, and those profits are then re-invested in campaign contributions to keep the borders open.

And until enough people catch on to the idea that illegal immigration is kept going to keep EVERYONE'S wages down, then you will keep voting for open borders candidates.

Wall Street may be the real power in the U.S.A., but if they are, I think it is because money talks and bullshit walks.
When you have money, you can throw away those ideals of national security, law and order and justice, and just focus on INVESTMENTS, like campaign contributions.

Yes, ABSOLUTELY you were showing support for Spitzer. You said that somebody in government knew about his addiction to prostitution, but let it slide until he went after Wall Street too much.
It is my understanding that Spitzer was caught unexpectedly in a prostitution investigation that was run by law enforcement, not Wall Street

Reportanddeport

04-19-2008, 04:26 PM

MsTerry

04-19-2008, 05:04 PM

But if you want to exploit illegal aliens or get cheap meth, then yes it's wasted.

I don't understand why our own, good old homegrown and hard working Hell"s Angels should lose their market to some illegal aliens for some cheap meth.
How can we help out your buddies?

Reportanddeport

04-19-2008, 05:08 PM

If that's true, then he was a hypocrite, too. He seemed like an all-around scumbag. I wonder why a Reagan supporter and member of the Moral Majority would be insisting on driver's licenses for illegal aliens. SOMETHING doesn't add up.

I agree with much of what you say.

As for Elliott Spitzer here is what another patriotic conservative had to say about him. This guy is a former president of the Moral Majority and a staunch Reaganite:
https://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2008/cbarchive_20080314.html

MsTerry

04-19-2008, 05:31 PM

I I wonder why a Reagan supporter and member of the Moral Majority would be insisting on driver's licenses for illegal aliens. SOMETHING doesn't add up.

You are right, I could never figure out myself why republicans would want to have people drive around without a license and make the streets unsafe! That is a valid point you are making.
Besides, if those Aliens are illegal, wouldn't we want to know where they live?

Braggi

04-19-2008, 06:19 PM

I guess it depends on what you mean by "wasted". I think it depends on how you look at it.

If the fence stops or greatly reduces illegal immigration, and Americans get their jobs back, and rapes and murders and drunk driving and identity theft are reduced and meth availability is reduced, then the money is not wasted.
But if you want to exploit illegal aliens or get cheap meth, then yes it's wasted. ...

I'll type this slowly so you can understand it. The fence won't stop illegal immigration. It's not designed to. Think of the fence the way you think of the Iraq war. Well, it's a bad comparison, but I'll use it any way.

The Fence (I suppose I should capitalize it) is to illegal immigration as the war in Iraq is to terrorism. Not designed to stop it. Not at all. The Fence is another military contract created by and supported by so called "conservatives" (think: "neo-cons" that are conning us anew) whose narrow minds won't allow in the reality that the Govt. is once again screwing the middle class taxpayers to enrich their big friends in the Military Industrial Political Complex. Understand? It won't stop immigration because that would stop their excuse for spending our money on militarism.

Do you think the "War on Terror" is designed to stop terrorists and end terrorism and reduce military spending?

Do you think the Failed War on Some Drugs is designed to stop drug use and reduce the amount of money spent on The Law Enforcement Growth Industry? Has it? Ever? Even a little bit? Please give examples.

Don't be a fool once again Jeff. Open you eyes and your mind.

These wars are not designed to end. We need very different tactics if we want to end these problems, or at least reduce them to the level they do little societal harm. The US is one of the most backwards countries in this regard.

You can ask if you'd like some details. (Hint: think harm reduction.)

-Jeff

phooph

04-19-2008, 06:30 PM

Not sure where you picked up the DLs for illegales, but I can think of two reasons:

1.) It's an identity card. Makes them easier to track. They gotta show up at the DMV to apply and that makes them visible to the system.

2.) A lot of them drive. Without a drivers license they can't get insurance. If you get hit by one your insurance company pays and you get stuck with the deductable. I got hit by a hit and run last October. A lot of hit and runs are illegals without insurance. I'd like to see them all with licenses and insurance. The Govenator was pushing a drivers license for illegals but got so much flak from the anti-illegals crowd he vetoed the bill when it got to his desk.

If that's true, then he was a hypocrite, too. He seemed like an all-around scumbag. I wonder why a Reagan supporter and member of the Moral Majority would be insisting on driver's licenses for illegal aliens. SOMETHING doesn't add up.

Reportanddeport

04-19-2008, 06:58 PM

Try to get beyond mere mockery.

You are right, I could never figure out myself why republicans would want to have people drive around without a license and make the streets unsafe! That is a valid point you are making.
Besides, if those Aliens are illegal, wouldn't we want to know where they live?

Reportanddeport

04-19-2008, 07:12 PM

OK, you and Woolsey can sabotage the fence any way you see fit. Meanwhile, I'll be doing all I can to develop a real fence to keep out your illegal employees and force you to pay your employess higher wages.

But you believe whatever you actually believe, or lead rubes astray however you see fit.

I don't know where you got this war stuff, because I sure never brought it up. I deal with the inter-related issues of Border Security, Illegal Immigration and suppression of the North American Union.

I'll type this slowly so you can understand it. The fence won't stop illegal immigration. It's not designed to. Think of the fence the way you think of the Iraq war. Well, it's a bad comparison, but I'll use it any way.

The Fence (I suppose I should capitalize it) is to illegal immigration as the war in Iraq is to terrorism. Not designed to stop it. Not at all. The Fence is another military contract created by and supported by so called "conservatives" (think: "neo-cons" that are conning us anew) whose narrow minds won't allow in the reality that the Govt. is once again screwing the middle class taxpayers to enrich their big friends in the Military Industrial Political Complex. Understand? It won't stop immigration because that would stop their excuse for spending our money on militarism.

Do you think the "War on Terror" is designed to stop terrorists and end terrorism and reduce military spending?

Do you think the Failed War on Some Drugs is designed to stop drug use and reduce the amount of money spent on The Law Enforcement Growth Industry? Has it? Ever? Even a little bit? Please give examples.

Don't be a fool once again Jeff. Open you eyes and your mind.

These wars are not designed to end. We need very different tactics if we want to end these problems, or at least reduce them to the level they do little societal harm. The US is one of the most backwards countries in this regard.

You can ask if you'd like some details. (Hint: think harm reduction.)

-Jeff

Reportanddeport

04-19-2008, 07:26 PM

Posted: October 31, 2007 



<TABLE align=right><TBODY><TR><TD width=229>https://www.worldnetdaily.com/images2/newyorklicense.gif

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
You're not aware that your buddy Spitzer was INSISTING on driver's licences for illegal aliens? C'mon! How else are you going to expand the Democratic and Communist parties without increased numbers of illegal aliens voting in the U.S.?
https://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=44321

The state of New York is now being sued over its new policy to provide driver's licenses to illegal aliens.
A lawsuit was filed by the public-interest watchdog group Judicial Watch on behalf of a New York taxpayer, with defendants including Gov. Eliot Spitzer, Commissioner David Swartz and the New York State DMV. According to New York State law, with respect to driver licenses, the DMV Commissioner "shall require that the applicant provide his or her social security number."

Not sure where you picked up the DLs for illegales, but I can think of two reasons:

1.) It's an identity card. Makes them easier to track. They gotta show up at the DMV to apply and that makes them visible to the system.

2.) A lot of them drive. Without a drivers license they can't get insurance. If you get hit by one your insurance company pays and you get stuck with the deductable. I got hit by a hit and run last October. A lot of hit and runs are illegals without insurance. I'd like to see them all with licenses and insurance. The Govenator was pushing a drivers license for illegals but got so much flak from the anti-illegals crowd he vetoed the bill when it got to his desk.

phooph

04-19-2008, 08:15 PM

Well now I know you are brain damaged. I sent you a link to an article about Spitzer by a conservative Republican who was not pro-Spitzer and you have managed to construe something completley irrelevant to what he said. I have been trying to be patient with you, but you are clearly unballanced. Now I understand why you had to import a wife from Asia. They'll put up with a lot for a crack at citizenship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjp0zBGmtHk

Posted: October 31, 2007 



<TABLE align=right><TBODY><TR><TD width=229>https://www.worldnetdaily.com/images2/newyorklicense.gif

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
You're not aware that your buddy Spitzer was INSISTING on driver's licences for illegal aliens? C'mon! How else are you going to expand the Democratic and Communist parties without increased numbers of illegal aliens voting in the U.S.?
https://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=44321

The state of New York is now being sued over its new policy to provide driver's licenses to illegal aliens.
A lawsuit was filed by the public-interest watchdog group Judicial Watch on behalf of a New York taxpayer, with defendants including Gov. Eliot Spitzer, Commissioner David Swartz and the New York State DMV. According to New York State law, with respect to driver licenses, the DMV Commissioner "shall require that the applicant provide his or her social security number."

Reportanddeport

04-19-2008, 09:01 PM

Actually, you know very little, except a soft sell approach to Communism. And you're only going to push the Party lines until you either reach exhaustion or you just get mad that I'm not falling for it and your anger tells you to turn to the Old Commie Standby of "mental illness". Once the dissident has been declared mentally ill, then that free thinker can be locked up in the Gulag and forgotten, not a problem any more. But such an approach is futile in a free society, you Commies only end up stressing yourself out for nothing if you can't have me committed to the Gulag.
You're NOT "patient" with me, you're just PHONY.
NICE people don't jump to the unnecessary comments about mental illness, nor do they have to say sick garbage like, "you had to import a wife from Asia. They'll put up with a lot for a crack at citizenship".
It is SUCH CRAP, you know NOTHING about my wife or marriage and you're just a REAL racist is all.

Well now I know you are brain damaged. I sent you a link to an article about Spitzer by a conservative Republican who was not pro-Spitzer and you have managed to construe something completley irrelevant to what he said. I have been trying to be patient with you, but you are clearly unballanced. Now I understand why you had to import a wife from Asia. They'll put up with a lot for a crack at citizenship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjp0zBGmtHk

MsTerry

04-19-2008, 09:20 PM

Try to get beyond mere mockery.

With someone as WITTY as you, that is REAL hard to DO.
Next thing WE (your commie friends) get to READ is that YOU are on a MISSION from GOD. LOL
What do you think JESUS would do with SOMEONE like YOU?

phooph

04-19-2008, 09:52 PM

You exhibit the standard behavior of someone with a mental illness:
Inability to accurately perceive and assimilate information
Misinterpretation of information to fit your delusions
Paranoid fantasies about people and events
Having some experience with paranoid schitzophenics, I see a very familiar pattern. I know this is a difficult disease to live with so you have my sympathies.

Actually, you know very little, except a soft sell approach to Communism. And you're only going to push the Party lines until you either reach exhaustion or you just get mad that I'm not falling for it and your anger tells you to turn to the Old Commie Standby of "mental illness". Once the dissident has been declared mentally ill, then that free thinker can be locked up in the Gulag and forgotten, not a problem any more. But such an approach is futile in a free society, you Commies only end up stressing yourself out for nothing if you can't have me committed to the Gulag.
You're NOT "patient" with me, you're just PHONY.
NICE people don't jump to the unnecessary comments about mental illness, nor do they have to say sick garbage like, "you had to import a wife from Asia. They'll put up with a lot for a crack at citizenship".
It is SUCH CRAP, you know NOTHING about my wife or marriage and you're just a REAL racist is all.

Braggi

04-19-2008, 10:22 PM

OK, you and Woolsey can sabotage the fence any way you see fit. Meanwhile, I'll be doing all I can to develop a real fence to keep out your illegal employees and force you to pay your employess higher wages.
...

I don't have any employees. I do work myself.

...

But you believe whatever you actually believe, or lead rubes astray however you see fit.
...

That's right, just keep your hands over your eyes and you won't have to know how the world actually works around you. Just keep paying your taxes and watch the problems expand. Meanwhile you can blame poor people who are merely pawns in the game but not the ones causing the problem.

...
I don't know where you got this war stuff, because I sure never brought it up. I deal with the inter-related issues of Border Security, Illegal Immigration and suppression of the North American Union.

I'm on a fools errand to try to teach you something about how the US Government works. You won't be able to solve problems without understanding what causes them.

You talk dirt about Bush and Co., and yet you support their policies. You're a conflicted man.

-Jeff

Valley Oak

04-19-2008, 11:27 PM

Bravo!

Edward

That's right, just keep your hands over your eyes and you won't have to know how the world actually works around you. Just keep paying your taxes and watch the problems expand. Meanwhile you can blame poor people who are merely pawns in the game but not the ones causing the problem.

I'm on a fools errand to try to teach you something about how the US Government works. You won't be able to solve problems without understanding what causes them.

You talk dirt about Bush and Co., and yet you support their policies. You're a conflicted man.

-Jeff

Valley Oak

04-19-2008, 11:32 PM

Now, Ms Terry, I'm going to ask you this question again (all in good humor, of course), is R&D worth it?

Sincere response only.

Sincerely,

Edward

With someone as WITTY as you, that is REAL hard to DO.
Next thing WE (your commie friends) get to READ is that YOU are on a MISSION from GOD. LOL
What do you think JESUS would do with SOMEONE like YOU?

Reportanddeport

04-20-2008, 12:25 AM

https://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5713748.html

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Harris County Sheriff's Office

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April 18, 2008, 11:13PM
Arrest made in death of mother
Search is on for a second man in apparent carjacking

By JENNIFER LEAHY
Copyright 2008 Houston Chronicle
By the time their paths crossed with Tina Davila's, deputies said the two men had gotten away with a few carjackings and even stolen some beer from a store.
In earlier attacks, the Harris County Sheriff's Office said their victims readily gave up their cars. Such was the case on Tuesday at an East Harris County convenience store on Market where they took a woman's car at knifepoint.
On Wednesday, a second carjacking went off without a hitch as well when authorities said the men stole a gold-colored Ford Taurus from a woman and then pilfered some beer from a Channelview-area convenience store.
But their encounter later that day with Davila was different, authorities said. The 39-year-old mother of five refused to give up the keys to her SUV because her 4-month-old daughter was inside.
Davila's refusal ultimately cost her her life as one of the alleged carjackers repeatedly stabbed the woman in front of a Cricket store at 5619 Uvalde on Wednesday.
Surveillance video has led to the capture of one of two men authorities said participated in the brazenly violent attack. Another man remains at large, and authorities believe that he may be headed across the Mexican border.
Deputies identified Kennedy Escoto, 17, as the driver of the getaway car. He has been charged with aggravated robbery.
Meanwhile, deputies are still searching for the suspect they say stabbed Davila to death in front of the Cricket store.
Timoteo Rios, 23, is an illegal immigrant from Michoacan, Mexico, said Lt. John Denholm, a Sheriff's Office spokesman.
"We're just hoping to get him before he crosses the border," said Denholm, adding that the vehicle has not been recovered.
Once arrested, Denholm said Rios will likely face "murder if not capital murder charges" in Davila's slaying.
Escoto may also be charged with murder, under Texas' "law of parties," which makes a getaway driver "just as guilty" as the murderer, Denholm said.
Surveillance video from the cellphone store shows a man in the stolen Taurus pulling up beside Davila almost immediately after she parked her white Chrysler Aspen outside the shopping center around 6 p.m. Wednesday.
Investigators believe the fatal carjacking was probably a spur-of-the-moment crime.
"The driver (Escoto) said they saw her get out of the car with money, and they weren't after her keys," Denholm said.
The video shows the man lunging for her car keys, then moving back toward the Ford sedan, with Davila following after him.
"She was yelling, 'My baby. My baby.' That's why she wouldn't give up the car," said Denholm in an interview earlier this week.
Authorities said the men were identified by someone who saw the video and contacted authorities.
While the video was hard for the public to watch, Denholm said authorities had no choice.
Rios frequented an address on Club Creek on the southwest side of Houston, sheriff's investigators said.
Escoto was taken into custody early Friday morning at the same complex on unrelated traffic charges.
"He's been cooperative," Denholm said.
Escoto, wearing a face mask due to a tuberculosis infection, was led from sheriff's offices, ducking from reporters who asked about Rios' whereabouts and why Davila was killed.
His only response was a one-finger gesture.
Escoto was arrested in September for trespassing and served 75 days in jail.
Rios was charged with possession of marijuana in May 2007 and served 10 days in jail. In June 2007 he was charged with criminal mischief and failure to identify himself to a police officer and served 30 days in jail.
Rios may still be driving the gold Ford Taurus with Texas plates P42 CYY and a broken left-side mirror held on by duct tape, they said.
Authorities ask anyone with information on Rios or the Taurus to call Crime Stoppers at 713-222-TIPS.

You exhibit the standard behavior of someone with a mental illness:
Inability to accurately perceive and assimilate information
Misinterpretation of information to fit your delusions
Paranoid fantasies about people and events
Having some experience with paranoid schitzophenics, I see a very familiar pattern. I know this is a difficult disease to live with so you have my sympathies.

thewholetruth

04-20-2008, 07:05 AM

More mockery.

After your first few posts after I joined the board, MsTerry, you appeared to be relaxed and openminded. Now it appears that you were just being disingenuous.

The truth always floats to the surface, eventually.

Don

With someone as WITTY as you, that is REAL hard to DO.
Next thing WE (your commie friends) get to READ is that YOU are on a MISSION from GOD. LOL
What do you think JESUS would do with SOMEONE like YOU?

thewholetruth

04-20-2008, 07:09 AM

And you exhibit the standard behavior of someone who cannot make their case: throw rocks and accuse the other person of being "mentally ill".

Don

You exhibit the standard behavior of someone with a mental illness:
Inability to accurately perceive and assimilate information
Misinterpretation of information to fit your delusions
Paranoid fantasies about people and events
Having some experience with paranoid schitzophenics, I see a very familiar pattern. I know this is a difficult disease to live with so you have my sympathies.

MsTerry

04-20-2008, 07:23 AM

R&D is like a recalcitrant teenager.
It is not important how he reacts, (that is too predictable) it is important how you and I keep reflecting the truth.

Now, Ms Terry, I'm going to ask you this question again (all in good humor, of course), is R&D worth it?

Sincere response only.

Sincerely,

Edward

MsTerry

04-20-2008, 07:33 AM

More mockery.

After your first few posts after I joined the board, MsTerry, you appeared to be relaxed and openminded. Now it appears that you were just being disingenuous.

The truth always floats to the surface, eventually.

Don

Dear Don,

I have felt great disappointment myself seeing the course you have taken.
I thought you were interested in intelligent dialogue instead of diatribes.
In another post you requested evidence of the CIA torture camps. When Jeff and I provided this, you simply pooped out.
Now that you are embedded with R&D, you are starting to take on some of his traits.
Same question for you,
What do you think JESUS would do with SOMEONE like YOU?

MsTerry

thewholetruth

04-20-2008, 07:53 AM

"In another post you requested evidence of the CIA torture camps. When Jeff and I provided this, you simply pooped out."

You didn't provide any evidence of CIA torture camps, MsTerry. You provided reports which accused the CIA of such. Accusations aren't evidence, Ma'am.

"What do you think JESUS would do with SOMEONE like YOU?"

Can't defend yourself, so you play the Jesus card. LOL

Perhaps you haven't spent much time on boards like this, MsTerry, or you would realize what common tactics people use when they can't make their case about something. This is one of the common diversionary tactics, btw, playing the Jesus card.

Don

Dear Don,

I have felt great disappointment myself seeing the course you have taken.
I thought you were interested in intelligent dialogue instead of diatribes.
In another post you requested evidence of the CIA torture camps. When Jeff and I provided this, you simply pooped out.
Now that you are embedded with R&D, you are starting to take on some of his traits.
Same question for you,
What do you think JESUS would do with SOMEONE like YOU?

MsTerry

MsTerry

04-20-2008, 08:00 AM

You didn't provide any evidence of CIA torture camps, MsTerry. You provided reports which accused the CIA of such. Accusations aren't evidence, Ma'am.

I guess you never took the time to read the articles.
It was a firsthand account of a Canadian who was released from a torture camp.
What more do you want, Don.
Just like before when you are confronted with direct, irrefutable evidence you decide to turn into an ostrich.
I was hoping you would do better than that.

MsTerry

04-20-2008, 08:04 AM

BTW, it would be helpful if you took the tutorial on how to post.
It makes them more legible.

"In another post you requested evidence of the CIA torture camps. When Jeff and I provided this, you simply pooped out."

You didn't provide any evidence of CIA torture camps, MsTerry. You provided reports which accused the CIA of such. Accusations aren't evidence, Ma'am.

"What do you think JESUS would do with SOMEONE like YOU?"

Can't defend yourself, so you play the Jesus card. LOL

Perhaps you haven't spent much time on boards like this, MsTerry, or you would realize what common tactics people use when they can't make their case about something. This is one of the common diversionary tactics, btw, playing the Jesus card.

Don

thewholetruth

04-20-2008, 08:28 AM

I learned how to post 16 years ago, MsTerry, in a way that is clear and concise. If Barry has a particular way he wants folks to post here, he hasn't said anything to me. It seems that there are several people posting several different ways. Have you corrected them all, yet? Or just the ones you're having a personal problem with. :wink:

Don

BTW, it would be helpful if you took the tutorial on how to post.
It makes them more legible.

MsTerry

04-20-2008, 09:00 AM

Well well,
so you do know how to put quotes in their proper place.
Now if you can interpret them properly too, we could actually have a conversation.

I learned how to post 16 years ago, MsTerry, in a way that is clear and concise. If Barry has a particular way he wants folks to post here, he hasn't said anything to me. It seems that there are several people posting several different ways. Have you corrected them all, yet? Or just the ones you're having a personal problem with. :wink:
Don

MsTerry, you appeared to be relaxed and openminded
I still am, are you ready to join me yet?

thewholetruth

04-20-2008, 01:15 PM

"I still am, are you ready to join me yet?"

The key word was "appeared", as in past tense, MsTerry. You no longer appear to be relaxed or openminded here. You appear quite the opposite now, combative, even.

Perhaps my first impression was wrong, or perhaps you were just on your best behavior for a minute. :wink:

No matter. I've been doing this for years, so I'm not offended by the positions you take or the comments you make. I'm just surprised to see you acting the way you are right now. You seemed so sweet and supportive when I arrived. Perhaps you were just coaxing the chicken into the yard?

Don

Well well,
so you do know how to put quotes in their proper place.
Now if you can interpret them properly too, we could actually have a conversation.

I still am, are you ready to join me yet?

Reportanddeport

04-20-2008, 02:44 PM

You work for yourself, and you DON'T MIND illegal competition? SOMETHING doesn't add up.
https://home.pon.net/jeffandmaria/usdoj/economics101.png

I don't have any employees. I do work myself.

That's right, just keep your hands over your eyes and you won't have to know how the world actually works around you. Just keep paying your taxes and watch the problems expand. Meanwhile you can blame poor people who are merely pawns in the game but not the ones causing the problem.

I'm on a fools errand to try to teach you something about how the US Government works. You won't be able to solve problems without understanding what causes them.

You talk dirt about Bush and Co., and yet you support their policies. You're a conflicted man.

-Jeff

MsTerry

04-20-2008, 03:27 PM

Yes, Don, that is right you appeared to be an intelligent conversationalist. (did you notice I used the same word "appeared", as in past tense?)
The problem with you, as Jeff has pointed out, is that you are more interested in having a disagreement than in making sense. Straight forward questions, you dance around like a lawyer or is it a politician? You constantly do the switch and bait trick, and by your own confession you have been doing this for years.
I am still and always will be supportive of people expressing their opinion, but do get impatient with people who say things and can't back it up, except with empty slogans.
eg.I am still waiting for your 'loss of FOS' explanation

"I still am, are you ready to join me yet?"

The key word was "appeared", as in past tense, MsTerry. You no longer appear to be relaxed or openminded here. You appear quite the opposite now, combative, even.

Perhaps my first impression was wrong, or perhaps you were just on your best behavior for a minute. :wink:

No matter. I've been doing this for years, so I'm not offended by the positions you take or the comments you make. I'm just surprised to see you acting the way you are right now. You seemed so sweet and supportive when I arrived. Perhaps you were just coaxing the chicken into the yard?

Don

Reportanddeport

04-20-2008, 06:54 PM

Don, these people are Communists. They have no point or agenda other than to deny, twist and convolute everything you say. It will ALWAYS be that way, no matter what you say.

"I still am, are you ready to join me yet?"

The key word was "appeared", as in past tense, MsTerry. You no longer appear to be relaxed or openminded here. You appear quite the opposite now, combative, even.

Perhaps my first impression was wrong, or perhaps you were just on your best behavior for a minute. :wink:

No matter. I've been doing this for years, so I'm not offended by the positions you take or the comments you make. I'm just surprised to see you acting the way you are right now. You seemed so sweet and supportive when I arrived. Perhaps you were just coaxing the chicken into the yard?

Don

MsTerry

04-20-2008, 07:14 PM

Don, these people are Communists. They have no point or agenda other than to deny, twist and convolute everything you say. It will ALWAYS be that way, no matter what you say.

Since you are so insistent on calling people names, I looked it up for you.

Communism is the idea of a free society with no division or alienation, where humananity is free from oppression and scarcity.
Now I understand why you are so scared.

thewholetruth

04-21-2008, 06:05 AM

thewholetruth

04-21-2008, 06:09 AM

"The problem with you, as Jeff has pointed out, is that you are more interested in having a disagreement than in making sense."

Matter of opinion, MsTerry. You've offered no evidence to support your claim.

"You constantly do the switch and bait trick, and by your own confession you have been doing this for years."

Please show me where that "confession" is. I believe you're making things up now. You've offered no evidence to support your claim.

"I am still waiting for your 'loss of FOS' explanation"

What does "loss of FOS" mean?

Don

Yes, Don, that is right you appeared to be an intelligent conversationalist. (did you notice I used the same word "appeared", as in past tense?)
The problem with you, as Jeff has pointed out, is that you are more interested in having a disagreement than in making sense. Straight forward questions, you dance around like a lawyer or is it a politician? You constantly do the switch and bait trick, and by your own confession you have been doing this for years.
I am still and always will be supportive of people expressing their opinion, but do get impatient with people who say things and can't back it up, except with empty slogans.
eg.I am still waiting for your 'loss of FOS' explanation

MsTerry

04-21-2008, 09:36 AM

Here I thought you figured it out, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, not Don. LOL
if you look above the reply box there are a number of icons #8 from the right we use for quotes.

"The problem with you, as Jeff has pointed out, is that you are more interested in having a disagreement than in making sense."

Matter of opinion, MsTerry. You've offered no evidence to support your claim.

"You constantly do the switch and bait trick, and by your own confession you have been doing this for years."

Please show me where that "confession" is. I believe you're making things up now. You've offered no evidence to support your claim.

"I am still waiting for your 'loss of FOS' explanation"

What does "loss of FOS" mean?

Don
here is your confession, unless you are a changed man...............

I learned how to post 16 years ago, MsTerry, in a way that is clear and concise.
Don

FOS means Freedom of Speech, but maybe it is something else you lost?

phooph

04-21-2008, 01:06 PM

Communism has only worked in small religious communities. Doesn't work under governments due to the "human nature" problems you listed.

"Communism is the idea of a free society with no division or alienation, where humananity is free from oppression and scarcity."

Which Mankind has NEVER been capable of manifesting due to the nature of Man. In short, Communism is a pipe dream. Interesting that it's just the pot heads who are Communists, lost in the fog, thinking Communism will set them free.

The rest of us can look back at history and see that Man has always and will always end up taking advantage of other people, given the opportunity, which results in oppression, murder, slavery, mayhem and chaos. Yay for Communism! Yaaaaaaaay!

Oh, wait...

Don

thewholetruth

04-21-2008, 03:25 PM

Personally, I don't even know of any religious communities in which Communism worked over the long haul. Do you actually know of some? It seems to me that every small religious community I've ever read about ultimately failed due to the inherrent nature of humans, either in leadership abusing their roles, or by the community forcing leadership and power on others.

I used to be a supporter of the philosophy, because, gosh, who wouldn't be, if it worked? But I've surrendered to the fact that people aren't capable collectively of abandoning selfishness. Emotions creep in, and character defects kick in and it's over.

I've always been an optimist, wired by God to be an encourager. Of that I am totally clear. But I'm not blind, and try as we might, Communism doesn't work when people are involved.

Don

Communism has only worked in small religious communities. Doesn't work under governments due to the "human nature" problems you listed.

phooph

04-21-2008, 04:37 PM

My mother's family were members of the Moravian Church who practiced a hybrid of communism for a few hundred years. Although they allowed for personal property, they also held much property in common (usually the more expensive property). They abandon this during the cold war more for socio-political than functional reasons. Ironically, the members of my mom's side of the family who are most infatuated with our religious history are the right wing Republicans who have ignored the communistic roots of the society. Moravians established the Bethlehem, PA and Salem, NC settlements.

Another group are the Bruderhoff which is a branch of the Hutterites.

Pure communism probably only exists within monastic orders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_communism

Ruth

Personally, I don't even know of any religious communities in which Communism worked over the long haul. Do you actually know of some? It seems to me that every small religious community I've ever read about ultimately failed due to the inherrent nature of humans, either in leadership abusing their roles, or by the community forcing leadership and power on others.

I used to be a supporter of the philosophy, because, gosh, who wouldn't be, if it worked? But I've surrendered to the fact that people aren't capable collectively of abandoning selfishness. Emotions creep in, and character defects kick in and it's over.

I've always been an optimist, wired by God to be an encourager. Of that I am totally clear. But I'm not blind, and try as we might, Communism doesn't work when people are involved.

Don

thewholetruth

04-22-2008, 05:39 AM

Thanks for taking the time to educate me, Ruth! :heart:

Don

My mother's family were members of the Moravian Church who practiced a hybrid of communism for a few hundred years. Although they allowed for personal property, they also held much property in common (usually the more expensive property). They abandon this during the cold war more for socio-political than functional reasons. Ironically, the members of my mom's side of the family who are most infatuated with our religious history are the right wing Republicans who have ignored the communistic roots of the society. Moravians established the Bethlehem, PA and Salem, NC settlements.

Another group are the Bruderhoff which is a branch of the Hutterites.

Pure communism probably only exists within monastic orders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_communism

Ruth

Braggi

04-22-2008, 08:47 AM

"Communism is the idea of a free society with no division or alienation, where humananity is free from oppression and scarcity."

Which Mankind has NEVER been capable of manifesting due to the nature of Man. In short, Communism is a pipe dream. Interesting that it's just the pot heads who are Communists, lost in the fog, thinking Communism will set them free.
...

Don, both you and Jeff (Reportanddeport) paint with the broad brushes of ignorance and arrogance and both of you are fond of building up "straw men" so you can satisfy yourselves you've knocked them and us down completely. Your smugness is repugnant and offensive. If it's true that you're a "clergyman" I wonder what ever happened to the humility I remember from the pastors of my youth.

It's "interesting" you think the posters here are "pot heads" and "communists." I've not read much of anything to suggest either. You and Jeff should know there exists a great variety of pot smokers. Some use it as a meditative tool, as a relaxant at the end of the day or as an aphrodisiac. These folks tend to use cannabis in very small amounts and on an irregular schedule. They are pot users but aren't "pot heads" in your sense of the term. I think you mean abusers, and there certainly are pot abusers although I think the numbers are far fewer as a percentage compared to alcohol abusers vs. users. Painting with a broad brush usually indicates ignorance and a lack of nuance in your education and point of view. That is certainly true in this case unless I've misunderstood your statements. For what it's worth, I don't know a single Wacco poster that is a pot abuser.

As far as communism is concerned, I'm no fan. I'm a capitalist, though not a corporatist. I consider corporatism the path to fascism as we are seeing in the US today. But back to communism. You and Jeff should remember that it was a tiny, impoverished communist country that defeated us in the Viet Nam war. We had all the assets. We had your "God" on our side. We were righteous in our political positions, and yet, they defeated us and threw us out. Isn't that interesting? They reunited their terribly damaged country, invaded Cambodia and stopped Pol Pot from his "killing fields" behavior. Keep in mind that it was popular reaction to US meddling in Cambodia that brought Pol Pot to power. It was communism that brought an end to that reign of terror. Viet Nam is now industrially healthy enough the US is courting it as a trading partner.

Much is made of our "defeat of communism" regarding the former Soviet Union. And yet, once the people of the Soviet Union rebelled and overthrew their "evil empire" (I agree, it was an evil empire, but it wasn't the US that defeated it) what rushed in to replace it in Russia was the international criminal element, widespread corruption, unemployment and starvation, and the rise of a vast black market featuring widespread drug distribution, prostitution (which was virtually unknown under communism), pornography and wholesale theft of intellectual property in the way of computer operating systems and programs as well as popular entertainment media. It's no wonder there are many wishing for the return of communism in Russia.

And then let's look at the USA today. Here we are, at the mercy of the largest communist country on the planet. China is in the process of buying out the US, fiscally as well as morally. A "godless" communist country is defeating us at our own game: the industrial revolution. They've learned well from us and now finance our military adventures abroad with their profits. Increasingly they control what we do because we can't afford to upset them too much since we are so totally dependent on them for our manufactured goods as well as financing our crumbling Federal Government. They will one day have the ability to bankrupt us by refusing to buy our debt. They could collapse our economy by refusing to ship products to us. They could put many of our largest corporations out of business by nationalizing the factories now operating in China. I don't think your God is blessing the US these days. And this is all happening under the control of what is arguably the most blatantly "Christian" administration ever in control of the White House, and, increasingly, of the judiciary.

But let's take a look at another Godless communist country that sits below Florida and see how they are doing. This is a country that had its petroleum supply abruptly cut off some decades ago. It underwent a vast restructuring and now is far more self sufficient than the US is. The entire country's agriculture is organic, biodynamic, and built upon permaculture techniques. It has one of the highest literacy rates in the world and a medical system that offers services to everyone regardless of economic status. Yes, it's a poor country in many ways, but the US could, if it was so bold, learn from its example because it does so much with so little in the way of assets especially considering the dearth of energy resources. I'm speaking of Cuba of course. Another nation that puts ours to shame in some ways.

So remember that not all potheads are created equal and communism has and is besting us on several fronts. Communism may defeat us after all because it's rapidly building up the power necessary to bankrupt us at their whim.

I think it might be better to work on yourself and quit complaining about others Don. I think you have a lot to learn about yourself as well as about everyone else. I don't know how old you are, but if you were born in 1955 I'm surprised because you have the communication skills of someone much younger. It's not that you are unable to write a sentence, but you are hobbled by your arrogant attitude and your condescending statements. You alienate those you attempt to teach. I don't think you're teaching anybody anything here. You have a lot to learn about yourself and others before you've earned the right to be a teacher.

Maybe you should drop the Christian facade and just work at becoming a good human. Secular humanism has a lot to teach those who have retreated into patriarchal, authoritarian religion because they were failing on their own. Once you've learned how to be a more actualized human, then you can go shopping for a religion. Who knows? You might even become a teacher some day.

-Jeff

MsTerry

04-22-2008, 09:04 AM

Wasn't Jesus a communist?

Don, both you and Jeff (Reportanddeport) paint with the broad brushes of ignorance and arrogance and both of you are fond of building up "straw men" so you can satisfy yourselves you've knocked them and us down completely. Your smugness is repugnant and offensive. If it's true that you're a "clergyman" I wonder what ever happened to the humility I remember from the pastors of my youth.

It's "interesting" you think the posters here are "pot heads" and "communists." I've not read much of anything to suggest either. You and Jeff should know there exists a great variety of pot smokers. Some use it as a meditative tool, as a relaxant at the end of the day or as an aphrodisiac. These folks tend to use cannabis in very small amounts and on an irregular schedule. They are pot users but aren't "pot heads" in your sense of the term. I think you mean abusers, and there certainly are pot abusers although I think the numbers are far fewer as a percentage compared to alcohol abusers vs. users. Painting with a broad brush usually indicates ignorance and a lack of nuance in your education and point of view. That is certainly true in this case unless I've misunderstood your statements. For what it's worth, I don't know a single Wacco poster that is a pot abuser.

As far as communism is concerned, I'm no fan. I'm a capitalist, though not a corporatist. I consider corporatism the path to fascism as we are seeing in the US today. But back to communism. You and Jeff should remember that it was a tiny, impoverished communist country that defeated us in the Viet Nam war. We had all the assets. We had your "God" on our side. We were righteous in our political positions, and yet, they defeated us and threw us out. Isn't that interesting? They reunited their terribly damaged country, invaded Cambodia and stopped Pol Pot from his "killing fields" behavior. Keep in mind that it was popular reaction to US meddling in Cambodia that brought Pol Pot to power. It was communism that brought an end to that reign of terror. Viet Nam is now industrially healthy enough the US is courting it as a trading partner.

Much is made of our "defeat of communism" regarding the former Soviet Union. And yet, once the people of the Soviet Union rebelled and overthrew their "evil empire" (I agree, it was an evil empire, but it wasn't the US that defeated it) what rushed in to replace it in Russia was the international criminal element, widespread corruption, unemployment and starvation, and the rise of a vast black market featuring widespread drug distribution, prostitution (which was virtually unknown under communism), pornography and wholesale theft of intellectual property in the way of computer operating systems and programs as well as popular entertainment media. It's no wonder there are many wishing for the return of communism in Russia.

And then let's look at the USA today. Here we are, at the mercy of the largest communist country on the planet. China is in the process of buying out the US, fiscally as well as morally. A "godless" communist country is defeating us at our own game: the industrial revolution. They've learned well from us and now finance our military adventures abroad with their profits. Increasingly they control what we do because we can't afford to upset them too much since we are so totally dependent on them for our manufactured goods as well as financing our crumbling Federal Government. They will one day have the ability to bankrupt us by refusing to buy our debt. They could collapse our economy by refusing to ship products to us. They could put many of our largest corporations out of business by nationalizing the factories now operating in China. I don't think your God is blessing the US these days. And this is all happening under the control of what is arguably the most blatantly "Christian" administration ever in control of the White House, and, increasingly, of the judiciary.

But let's take a look at another Godless communist country that sits below Florida and see how they are doing. This is a country that had its petroleum supply abruptly cut off some decades ago. It underwent a vast restructuring and now is far more self sufficient than the US is. The entire country's agriculture is organic, biodynamic, and built upon permaculture techniques. It has one of the highest literacy rates in the world and a medical system that offers services to everyone regardless of economic status. Yes, it's a poor country in many ways, but the US could, if it was so bold, learn from its example because it does so much with so little in the way of assets especially considering the dearth of energy resources. I'm speaking of Cuba of course. Another nation that puts ours to shame in some ways.

So remember that not all potheads are created equal and communism has and is besting us on several fronts. Communism may defeat us after all because it's rapidly building up the power necessary to bankrupt us at their whim.

I think it might be better to work on yourself and quit complaining about others Don. I think you have a lot to learn about yourself as well as about everyone else. I don't know how old you are, but if you were born in 1955 I'm surprised because you have the communication skills of someone much younger. It's not that you are unable to write a sentence, but you are hobbled by your arrogant attitude and you condescending statements. You alienate those you attempt to teach. I don't think you're teaching anybody anything here. You have a lot to learn yourself and others before you've earned the right to be a teacher.

Maybe you should drop the Christian facade and just work at becoming a good human. Secular humanism has a lot to teach those who have retreated into patriarchal, authoritarian religion because they were failing on their own. Once you've learned how to be a more actualized human, then you can go shopping for a religion. Who knows? You might even become a teacher some day.

-Jeff

Braggi

04-22-2008, 09:35 AM

Don, both you and Jeff (Reportanddeport) paint with the broad brushes of ignorance and arrogance and both of you are fond of building up "straw men" so you can satisfy yourselves you've knocked them and us down completely. Your smugness is repugnant and offensive. ...

By the way, allow me to confess that I see these limitations easily in others because I suffer from them myself. I was made well aware of them about 25 years ago by some very good teachers. I'm grateful I was mature enough at the time to hear their counsel and begin the long, slow path toward healing these limitations. I still work with these issues on a daily basis. Writing and posting on Wacco is part of my therapy.

It was most enlightening when one day I realized the topics I was most arrogant about were also the topics I was most ignorant about.

It's real nice I can edit my original writing before I hit that "Submit" button. It's also nice I can use the Web to study up on topics before writing about them.

"God" bless technology, education and self examination.

-Jeff

phooph

04-22-2008, 11:28 AM

Since the terms communist and capitalist had not yet been invented we have not seen them in use at the time to describe the activities, however, Jesus seems to have expressed very strong anti-capitalist sentiments. His declaration of the love of money as the root of all evil, and admonitions and warnings about the spiritual dangers of accumulating wealth, a primary goal of capitalism, would lead one to conclude that it would be amongst the greater sins. We also know that the early Christian communities practiced common ownership of "all things." This was a voluntary activity, although there is the incident in which a couple are struck down by God for having agreed to give up their possessions but having secretly stashed some away. Voluntary relinquishment of one's possessions is a bit different from having them confiscated and owned by the state.

Ruth

Wasn't Jesus a communist?

MsTerry

04-22-2008, 01:05 PM

. Voluntary relinquishment of one's possessions is a bit different from having them confiscated and owned by the state.

Ruth

Is that what communism is synonym with?

phooph

04-22-2008, 10:49 PM

That has been how it has been practiced by governments, and even then not successfully as they morphed into highly stratified socialist states.

When Russia instituted communism they discovered that equality wasn't for everyone. Desire for status is hard wired into humans as it is in all social animals. Without a hierarchical system of some sort the social order became chaotic. It was particularly bad in the military which relies upon rank based chains of command.

Ruth

Is that what communism is synonym with?

phooph wrote:
. Voluntary relinquishment of one's possessions is a bit different from having them confiscated and owned by the state.

Ruth

Peace Seeker

04-22-2008, 11:47 PM

What is the purpose of a border anyway? To keep people out who originally migrated from here? You may say it's to protect people. Protect them from what? We have laws here that make criminals out of citizens, so if there are cirminals on both sides of the border, what on earth could you be trying to secure?

Rightly said, Dark Shadows. This is also my view.

I was born and raised in Seattle. That's a couple thousand miles from both San Diego, and even further from El Paso. I don't believe that I have some greater moral entitlement to be in San Diego or El Paso than someone born ten miles from there - just because I got born othe the "right" side of imaginary line and s/he got born on the wrong side. If anything, s/he has a stronger moral claim to live in or visit San Diego or El Paso than I do, because s/he comes from that eco-geographic zone, and is actually part of it.

And I don't feel deeper respect or humane concern for someone born -- or living -- north of the US/Mexico border than for someone born -- or living -- south of that border. We're all simply Human Beings, struggling to survive in a very difficult world.

If anything, I feel greater concern for someone trapped and starving in Mexico or South America, than for someone stuffing her/himself with food and other luxuries looted from poorer peoples all over the planet.

But we're all trapped in this mess, and complicit in the crimes that keep it going. So I need to maintain compassion toward other haplessly trapped North Americans, even if our cells come with prettier views, brighter & cleaner uniforms, softer furniture and classier toys than what haplessly trapped Mexican get in their cells.

People live on the face of the earth. We're all subject to the same spiritual and life challenges, and we're all equally entitled the same share of what God put here for us. Our instructions are to live in peace and compassion, and to take care of the planet and each other -- not trash the planet and each other.

Nationalism conflicts with that moral duty. It's a counterfeit identity, which diverts valid personal virtues (honor, loyalty to friends, love of place, desire for stability and safety) into a nightmarish travesty where we wind up hating and killing other people based on geopolitical groupings that other people dreamt up to serve their power/profit agendas.

Borders are armed perimeters which elites pay hirelings to keep in place for them, so they can hang onto what they stole from people on the other side of the line. To buy our loyalty by tossing us occasional crumbs from the endless banquet they're holding behind locked and guarded doors. An important question we need to keep asking ourselves about all this is:

"Are we pets? Or are we meat?"

(Thanks to Michael Moore for that one).

Immigrant bashing and immigrant scapegoating just makes all of this suffering and damage even worse. What we need to do is develop good will toward everyone, share with everyone, and help everyone, every way we can. Including the plutocrats who are running this crooked game. They're obviously desperate, fearful and lost in nightmarish misconceptions, or they wouldn't keep endlessly repeating the same dead-end, self-destructive blunders.

David

Reportanddeport

04-23-2008, 12:51 AM

What a deeply SICK, INDIFFERENT and DESTRUCTIVE mind that would think such garbage and seek to dump it on others.

Criminals like YOU are why thousands of Americans have been raped, maimed, murdered and molested, because cold-blooded, selfish, so called "peace makers" like you close your mind to reality.

Utterly DISGUSTING. Try taking you sick mind to Mexico or Canada, and tell the immigration officers you have a right to be there or anywhere.

What an UTTER FOOL.

You sick creatures need to re-read the Communist Manifesto. Marx was AGAINST trying to create world government until all countries had already turned to Communism on their own. And you sure as hell WON'T get your world government by destroying or parasitizing the U.S.A.

Rightly said, Dark Shadows. This is also my view.

I was born and raised in Seattle. That's a couple thousand miles from both San Diego, and even further from El Paso. I don't believe that I have some greater moral entitlement to be in San Diego or El Paso than someone born ten miles from there - just because I got born othe the "right" side of imaginary line and s/he got born on the wrong side. If anything, s/he has a stronger moral claim to live in or visit San Diego or El Paso than I do, because s/he comes from that eco-geographic zone, and is actually part of it.

And I don't feel deeper respect or humane concern for someone born -- or living -- north of the US/Mexico border than for someone born -- or living -- south of that border. We're all simply Human Beings, struggling to survive in a very difficult world.

If anything, I feel greater concern for someone trapped and starving in Mexico or South America, than for someone stuffing her/himself with food and other luxuries looted from poorer peoples all over the planet.

But we're all trapped in this mess, and complicit in the crimes that keep it going. So I need to maintain compassion toward other haplessly trapped North Americans, even if our cells come with prettier views, brighter & cleaner uniforms, softer furniture and classier toys than what haplessly trapped Mexican get in their cells.

People live on the face of the earth. We're all subject to the same spiritual and life challenges, and we're all equally entitled the same share of what God put here for us. Our instructions are to live in peace and compassion, and to take care of the planet and each other -- not trash the planet and each other.

Nationalism conflicts with that moral duty. It's a counterfeit identity, which diverts valid personal virtues (honor, loyalty to friends, love of place, desire for stability and safety) into a nightmarish travesty where we wind up hating and killing other people based on geopolitical groupings that other people dreamt up to serve their power/profit agendas.

Borders are armed perimeters which elites pay hirelings to keep in place for them, so they can hang onto what they stole from people on the other side of the line. To buy our loyalty by tossing us occasional crumbs from the endless banquet they're holding behind locked and guarded doors. An important question we need to keep asking ourselves about all this is:

"Are we pets? Or are we meat?"

(Thanks to Michael Moore for that one).

Immigrant bashing and immigrant scapegoating just makes all of this suffering and damage even worse. What we need to do is develop good will toward everyone, share with everyone, and help everyone, every way we can. Including the plutocrats who are running this crooked game. They're obviously desperate, fearful and lost in nightmarish misconceptions, or they wouldn't keep endlessly repeating the same dead-end, self-destructive blunders.

David

Reportanddeport

04-23-2008, 01:05 AM

Why God whyyyyyy do innocent mothers have to die at the hands of murdering, illegal aliens when it could be SHOULD be Davin Cardenas or Richard Coshnear taking the blade in the chest? Whyyyyy can't the people who bring in and protect the illegal aliens be the ones suffering and dying from them?

HOUSTON is a sanctuary city too, just like you cold-blooded monsters want Sonoma County to be.

https://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=6097608

HOUSTON (KTRK) -- The search for a suspect accused of killing a mother of five is still on.
We've learned Timoteo Rios is an illegal immigrant who has been in the Harris County Jail twice.
Timoteo Rios, 23, is a fugitive accused of fatally stabbing a mother of five during a botched robbery. He was not only in this country illegally, but we've learned while police arrested him twice before for Class c misdemeanors, authorities had no choice but to release him after he served his time. It appears federal detainers were never issued by immigration officials.
"In this particular case, it just echoes what we've seen time and time again throughout the decade," said Andy Kahan who is the city of Houston crime victim's advocate.

<SCRIPT language=javascript src="https://Adsatt.abc.go.com/ad/sponsors/utilities/flash_v3004.js" type=text/javascript></SCRIPT><SCRIPT language=VBScript> Function VBGetSwfVer(i) on error resume next Dim swControl, swVersion swVersion = 0 set swControl = CreateObject("ShockwaveFlash.ShockwaveFlash." + CStr(i)) if (IsObject(swControl)) then swVersion = 0 swVersion = swControl.GetVariable("$version") end if VBGetSwfVer = swVersion End Function </SCRIPT><SCRIPT language=Javascript type=text/javascript>var SOB=new flashObj();var enc_goto = escape(("" == "") ? "https://www.lennar.com/promotions/cement.aspx?pid=17561&cityid=HOU&SourceID=MKT" : "");SOB.ID = "ad_creative";SOB.flashFile = "https://Adsatt.abc.go.com/ad/sponsors/Lennar_Homes/Apr_2008/len0-300x250-0006.swf?clicktag=https://log.go.com/log?srvc%3dotv%26guid%3d0327948C-7764-4DF6-B39B-1D73176693D1%26drop%3d0%26addata%3d2462:67596:397545:64178%26a%3d1%26goto%3d"+enc_goto;SOB.DenyIEdl = "TRUE";SOB.wmode = "opaque";SOB.width = "300";SOB.height = "250";SOB.FlashVer = 8;SOB.cabVersion = "8,0,0,0";SOB.altTxt = "<a href=""\"https://log.go.com/log?srvc=otv&guid=0327948C-7764-4DF6-B39B-1D73176693D1&drop=0&addata=2462:67596:397545:64178&a=1&goto=https://www.lennar.com/promotions/cement.aspx?pid=17561&cityid=HOU&SourceID=MKT\" target=\"_new\">https://www.waccobb.net/forums/<\/a>";SOB.render(true);</SCRIPT><NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>Rios was first arrested on May 29th 2007 for possession of marijuana at which time authorities say he admitted to being in this country illegally. They entered his name into a database which a department spokesman says was faxed to the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
Rios was released from jail three days later.
Police rearrested Rios on June 27th. The sheriff's department says it notified ICE, yet despite the fact he was already on a list sent to them, it appears there was no detainer to hold him. Without one, he was released on July 6th. The process repeated itself.
"The problem that you have is you're dealing with limited resources and manpower and the cases he was booked in on don't really make it to the top of the totem pole as far as issuing a detainers," Kahan said.
If you know where he is, call Crime Stoppers at 713-222-TIPS. You could earn a cash reward.
The man accused of driving the get-away car, Kennedy Escoto, is due in court Wednesday. He was supposed to be in court Monday, but investigators said he was sick with tuberculosis. He's charged with aggravated robbery with a deadly weapon.

Sara S

04-23-2008, 06:35 AM

Ohhhh, "Freedom of Speech"??

It seems to me that in his case FOS means "Full of Shit" (apologies to the linguistically sensitive).

Sara S.

Here I thought you figured it out, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, not Don. LOL
if you look above the reply box there are a number of icons #8 from the right we use for quotes.

here is your confession, unless you are a changed man...............

FOS means Freedom of Speech, but maybe it is something else you lost?

Peace Seeker

04-23-2008, 10:17 AM

To anyone upset by the things ReportAndDeport says, or the way he says them: Please refrain from counter-flaming, counter-insults or other reactive disrespect against him.

Of course I object to being hatefully attacked as "a SICK, INDIFFERENT and DESTRUCTIVE mind", as think ... garbage [and] ... dump it on others", and as being a "criminal" who "causes" thousands of rapes and other violent crimes. And I don't believe it's rational, socially responsible or morally acceptable for ReportAndDeport to pour out that kind of hateful verbal abuse. But that isn't a justification for me or others to retaliate in kind.

What's needed here is to break ourselves free of our fear and rage, so we can act constructively, competently and humanely.

Because there are billions of humans living on our planet, there will always be people who have attitudes and beliefs we see as outrageous, dangerous and immoral. And people who see our attitudes (whatever they are) as outrageous, dangerous and immoral.

Those "others" aren't going to stop existing, and neither are we. We aren't going to exterminate them, or banish them from our society. They are part of it. Exterminating or banishing people whose attitudes and ideas we see as a threat would be a morally repellant betrayal of the humanitarian values we claim we're championing.

(For that matter, when people do believe in atrocities, and commit them, anyone they manage to wipe is replaced by others. Usually more numerous than before, more bitter, and more determined -- because someone has actually perpetrated an atoricity against their group.)

We have to find a way to coexist peaceably with one another.

While I object to ReportAndDeport's abusive flaming, he isn't the only flamer on this thread. People have called him bittterly insulting things, often in the name of "tolerance".

For example:

That ReportAndDeport "exhibit[s] the standard behavior of someone with a mental illness," followed by sarcastic "sympathy" that his "paranoid schizophrenia" is "a difficult disease to live with"
That ReportAndDeport is "like a recalcitrant teenager" to whom we superior beings must "keep reflecting the truth
That ReportAndDeport sympathizes with U.S. "Hell's Angels meth dealers" in their competition with Mexican meth dealers.
That ReportAndDeport is stupid, and therefore needs slow, patient explanations and capitalizing of simple words, in order to understand our "superior" thinking.
That ReportAndDeport and others "like him" have "narrow minds" that "won't allow in the (superior) reality" taht we enlightened liberals understand.
That ReportAndDeport is a fool, and unless he starts thinking like us he will "be a fool once again".
Brain damaged"
"Clearly unbalanced
"Full of shit."
That he "imported a wife" from Asia in order to abuse her. (This dragged ReportAndDeport's wife into the cross-fire of on-line verbal abuse.)[/font]

Some of this was clearly intended as "telling irony". But I think it crossed the line into abusive flaming. Sarcasm is an expression of anger. We think we're being clever, but it's typically alot more insulting and counterproductive than we admit to ourselves. Believe me, I KNOW: On a gut level, I'm addicted to sarcasm. Unless I constantly re-read my correspondence and clean it up, my most passionate declarations of my values can get so contaminated with sarcastic venom that they almost read like hate diatribes. (To each of us, our own rage is always Righteous, especially in the moment.)

To better grasp conservatives' anger, and viewponts many progressives dismiss as "incomprehensible", deranged, hateful or ignorant, read this excerpt from Studs Terkel's interview with a hardline, white segregationist:

All my life, I had work, never a day without work, worked all the overtime I could get and still could not survive financially. I began to see there's something wrong with this country. I worked my butt off and just never seemed to break even. I had some real great ideas about this nation. They say to abide by the law, go to church, do right and live for the Lord, and everything'll work out. But it didn't work out. It just kept getting worse and worse

"Tryin' to come out of that hole, I just couldn't do it. I really began to get bitter. I didn't know who to blame. I tried to find somebody. Hating America is hard to do because you can't see it to hate it. You gotta have somethin' to look at to hate.

[... ]

"[FONT=Times New Roman]The majority of [the Klan] are low-income Whites, people who really don't have a part in something. They have been shut out as well as Blacks. ... Deep down inside, we want to be part of this great society. Nobody listens, so we join these groups"

The full interview is on line at:

https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/archive/peace-discuss/2006-October/011263.html (https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/archive/peace-discuss/2006-October/011263.html)

I'm not posting this as a condescending, covert slur, to coyly imply that ReportAndDeport is a Klan sympathizer, or low-income, or illliterate or ignorant. However in both marginal and more mainstream settings and groups, I believe a lot of rank and file conservative anger is rooted in understandable class-based rage, in anger at being excluded and disrespected, and in alarm at feeling trapped in untenable circumstances.

One of ReportAndDeport's posts presented a reason he understands immigration as a threat. He stated:

"A country without borders is a no-man's-land and/or a war zone. Do YOU have any space of your own? If yes, then draw the line and defend it. If no, then people will be trampling all over you."

I strongly disagree with that perspective, although I don't dismiss the underlying frustration and alarm as "evil" or "stupid". I think we have war zones for entirely other reasons than because of a lack of strictly enforced national borders. I think we create war zones by abandoning large numbers of people to desperate, miserable conditions where they lose hope and see no realistic legal options, so they resort to illegal options.

We also abandon people who understandably fear immigration in the ways ReportAndDeport does, by dismissing or attacking them as "evil" or "bigotted" when they expresses entirely understandable fears and concerns.

We think they are mistaken? Fine. That doesn't entitle us to treat them like mental or moral defectives, or to spit in their faces. Not everyone who's debated with ReportAndDeport on this thread has abused him, and some did so after he baited them. But people have abused him verbally on this list, while at the same time holding themselves out as superior to him.

It's not "tolerant" to pour sarcasm, contempt, or filthy expletives on another person because you think they are intolerant. Maybe they [I]are intolerant. Maybe you [I]are correct to see their statements as offensive. But that doesn't make your flaming attacks on them "tolerant". That's saying: "I think 'X' is hateful. Therefore it's not hateful for me to heap hateful insults on'X'." Especially when we're playing to an audience we think agrees more with us than with 'X'. Then we're inviting other readers to join with us in maintaining a hateful, insulting attitude toward 'X'. We have to stop doing this, no matter how passionately we hold our own views, and no matter how fearfully we dread the evil we imagine in others.

I have looked hard at my own angry reactions to rightist rage. I find that my impulsive reactions are ultimately driven by pain and fear, which I temporarily and superficially squash aside by moving to my own counter-rage. There are wholesome ways to understand our anger, and there are lucid, constructive ways to use it. But reactive rage is neither wholesome, nor constructive, nor truly empowering. It's an impulsive and futile attempt to suppress and avoid pain, which leaves us vulnerable and disoriented. In that vulnerable, disoriented state we are incapable of clearly hearing and considering others' advice and warnings. In that vulnerable, disoriented state we make dangerous mistakes.

Everyone active on all sides of the Immigration controversy sees themselves as correct but greivously misunderstood, and sees those who disagree with them as some kind of actual or potential threat. It's this underlying fear, that something we cherish is imperilled, that triggers us into abusive rage. But violent raging -- no matter how righteous we think it is -- won't create a better world for any of us. It will suck us deeper into a more violent, hopeless snarl of suffering.

That said, I do have a very serious objection to your post, ReportAndDeport:

I stated what I believe is a responsible, unifying, humanitarian perspective on Immigration. It's my best understanding of how the Creator looks upon all of Humanity, as we endlessly convulse ourselves and brutalize one another in sociopathic violence. I realize that nationalism is a widely embraced ideology, and that many people see it as a virtue and a valued source of collective strength. I don't. I think nationalism is an extremely harmful source of prejudice, division and war.

I very strongly object to you publicizing fantasies of bloody violence in reaction to my statement of my views. Is it safe to post my views and to attempt straightforward, peaceable dialogue with you about this very important community issue? Or do I have to worry that you -- or someone you "report" me to -- will target me with a violent personal hate campaign?

It's harmful to yourself, and dangerous for the two people you targetted directly with violence imagery, and dangerous for me, when you visualize images of them (and by clear innuendo images of me and anyone "like me") being stabbed.

It's even more dangerous to publish such images to others, because who knows what psychological harm or actual violence it might trigger in some reader? I don't believe you have any right to make such public statements, whether they are technically "legal" or not. I think it is dangerously irresponsible for you to relish criminal violence against others, and to communicate those violent imaginings to others. If you're doing it here, I suspect you are also doing it in hardline, immigrant-bashing listserves and venues -- where there is a high likelihood someone will escallate from hateful "venting" to outright homicidal violence.

I will continue urging others to refrain from insulting you, or pouring disrespect on you, even though I think you are making mistakes which are harmful to innocent, vulnerable people, and dangerous to me and others.

I want you to refrain from threatening me and others who advocate leniency and immigrants -- either directly or by innuendo. I want you to refrain from doing this on WaccoBB, and also elsewhere. Especially in conservative anti-immigrant venues -- because in anti-immigrant venues, there is a very high risk that demonizing insults, and direct and indirect calls to violence, will lead someone to act hatefully or violently.

David

Valley Oak

04-23-2008, 10:40 AM

David, thanks for a great piece!

Could you please go back and edit your post so that the formatting is not so large and in bold?

Thanks,

Edward

To anyone upset by the things ReportAndDeport says, or the way he says them: Please refrain from counter-flaming, counter-insults or other reactive disrespect against him...

phooph

04-23-2008, 12:58 PM

As one who has sinned in this respect I agree with the sentiments of your request. I am the one who dragged his wife into the argument and for that I appologize.

Some people are driven by emotion as opposed to logic, others suffer from brain disorders and are at the effect of miswiring or chemical imballances. We must refrain from harboring anger toward them even though they try our patience.

In reading the compliation you included I can sympathize with the many of the sentiments. I am someone who is driven by curiosity and always am searching for the answers to how things work and how they got the way they are.

Raised as a minister's daughter I began to realize there were things about my faith that made no sense to me. There was great contradiction and a fundamental lack of integrity in the way it was structured. I could not believe that a wise and loving supreme being could have constructed such a patchwork system. So I began to research other religions and their history as well as ancient mythology and began to see so many common threads that at first I was somewhat offended. I had a loyalty to Christianity that was now challenged by the fact that there was nothing unique about it. I had thought it was special, but my investigations revealed it as common. I retained the teachings of Jesus as fundamental wisdom, but realized that there was nothing revolutionary about them in the long view of history, but that they were a resurection of even more ancient teachings. I also saw that the deification of important people was common in the ancient world. So were virgin births and resurections from the dead. I gained a new respect for the person we know as Jesus as a politically savvy and enlightened individual. I also was able to see how religion is used to manipulate the masses to the advantage of the power structure, some of which is beneficial and some not.

I also became curious about the reality expressed in this quote:
[indent]All my life, I had work, never a day without work, worked all the overtime I could get and still could not survive financially. I began to see there's something wrong with this country. I worked my butt off and just never seemed to break even. I had some real great ideas about this nation. They say to abide by the law, go to church, do right and live for the Lord, and everything'll work out. But it didn't work out. It just kept getting worse and worse

I began to research this issue also, first believing I was not trying hard enough, didn't know the right things to do, needed new skills, etc. But as the years passed I was not finding the answers that explained it. My revelation finally came when I began to study something I had previously ignored: how money works. This led eventually to understanding that money is part of a system, and it functions in different ways depending upon how a currency system is structured. The structure of our current currency is designed to benefit those with large amounts of it as they are the ones who set up the system we now use. This is a different system than was set up at the founding of the republic. The revolution has been betrayed and the old system used by the Bank of England that eventually led to the revolution has been reinstated. It didn't work for the colonies and it doesn't work for us. It is designed in such a way that it requires loosers in order to function. Our money is issued backed by debt. When the gold and silver standard was abandoned and the shift made to debt issued currency it acquired a burden of interest that must be paid requiring an ever increasing tax burden and ever increasing borrowing to keep ahead of the unissued interest burden which requires more taxes to be paid etc. Our original money was debt and interest free. A google search on Money as Debt will bring up a video that explains it in 47 minutes worth of detail on money and banking.

"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled." – John Kenneth Galbraith, Economist

So who would set up such a system? Those who profit by it. Who gets all that interest that must be collected from us in taxes?

One might also ask, Who profits by offshoring US jobs to developing countries? Who profits by further flooding the job market with people who will work real hard for low wages? Who profits from disasters and wars? Right now many members of congress are invested in the current war:
https://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=41893

Someone will now want to call me a conspiracy theorist so I will quote an investment banker I know who said, What you call conspiracy is simply people protecting their assets.

So understand that for those people to protect their assets they must acquire some of ours because the system is designed that way.

I discussed these and other issues of corporate/government collusion in morally questionable activities with an acquaintance of mine who had worked for a major international corporation and also in the government. I expected him to call me a conspiracy nut, but instead he said to me in a somewhat affectionate but condescening way, "That's the way the world works. Get used to it."

Ruth

"Anything that is disagreeable must surely have beneficial economic effects."

"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite."
– John Kenneth Galbraith, Economist

To anyone upset by the things ReportAndDeport says, or the way he says them: Please refrain from counter-flaming, counter-insults or other reactive disrespect against him. ...

Reportanddeport

04-23-2008, 02:27 PM

The LONGER an opinion piece is, the more value it has? I just hope that people are wise enough to recognize DANGER when they see it and are wise enough to take steps to stay safe. People are going to believe what they WANT to believe. I believe that illegal aliens are dangerous and that a world without law and order and protective services is a very bad place. But if people prefer hype over law and order, then let 'em.

To anyone upset by the things ReportAndDeport says, or the way he says them: Please refrain from counter-flaming, counter-insults or other reactive disrespect against him. ...

MsTerry

04-23-2008, 08:37 PM

<LI class=list_spacer>That ReportAndDeport is "like a recalcitrant teenager" to whom we superior beings must "keep reflecting the truth <LI class=list_spacer>That ReportAndDeport sympathizes with U.S. "Hell's Angels meth dealers" in their competition with Mexican meth dealers. <LI class=list_spacer>That ReportAndDeport is stupid, and therefore needs slow, patient explanations and capitalizing of simple words, in order to understand our "superior" thinking.<LI class=list_spacer>David
David may I suggest that if you want to live up to your name, Peace seeker,
you stick to actual quotes rather than adding your subjective interpretations that are out of context.
And why did you feel the need to put everything in BIG BOLD letters?
Feeling a little superior? Afraid we don't get it?
had you read all the posts, you would felt a different nuance.

Peace Seeker

04-23-2008, 11:06 PM

David may I suggest that if you want to live up to your name, Peace seeker,
you stick to actual quotes rather than adding your subjective interpretations that are out of context.
And why did you feel the need to put everything in BIG BOLD letters?
Feeling a little superior? Afraid we don't get it?
had you read all the posts, you would felt a different nuance.

Folks - I replied to Ms Terry, but pushed the "reply privately" by mistake. Maybe that was some kind of Divine intevention. Anyway, the oversize font was not intentional. I couldn't get the font to the size I wanted, and everything I tried made the fonts and sizes evern more scrambled. I finally gave up and left the large font in place.

I did see some other very constructive content in this thread, although I didn't see the overall nuance as eliminating the personally hostile nature of the passages I mentioned.

I don't think I'm unduly arrogant, to point this problem out. It could make me more smug than I admit to myself, to criticize something I see other people doing. Even If that happened, I think the problem I described is serious enough to justify taking that risk. It's something to ponder, though. Maybe if I do, I'll become even more perfect by the next time I post.

David

Sara S

04-24-2008, 07:28 AM

(Sorry, folks; I haven't learned yet how to abstract part of the post I'm replying to.)

When I said "Full of Shit" I was mostly trying to be funny, because I've been using the FOS initials to mean that for a long time, and had never heard that they meant "Freedom of Speech". And I never remember to put LOL or :) after my attempts at humor.

I really agree with all that you said, David.

Sara S.

To anyone upset by the things ReportAndDeport says, or the way he says them: Please refrain from counter-flaming, counter-insults or other reactive disrespect against him.
...

Valley Oak

04-24-2008, 07:37 AM

Sara,

There is some quoting programming that comes before and after the text when you reply to a message. It starts with an open bracket: '[.' Immediately following, without a space, there is the word, 'quote.' There is some other stuff and the bracket closes, '].' At the end of the reply post, the programming is repeated with a forward slash, '[/quote...],' (but without the elisions I included to disable the effect), and this ends the quotation.

I can even fabricate quotes such as:

"To be or not to be, that is the question"
-- William ShakespeareI used the open quote and closed quote 'tags' in order to create this effect.

Edward

(Sorry, folks; I haven't learned yet how to abstract part of the post I'm replying to.)

When I said "Full of Shit" I was mostly trying to be funny, because I've been using the FOS initials to mean that for a long time, and had never heard that they meant "Freedom of Speech". And I never remember to put LOL or :) after my attempts at humor.

I really agree with all that you said, David.

Sara S.

Braggi

04-24-2008, 08:00 AM

You work for yourself, and you DON'T MIND illegal competition? SOMETHING doesn't add up.

I don't spend my life wallowing in fear of illegal aliens. I don't have time or energy for that and I have plenty of other things to fear. There is more work than I have time to do. If it wasn't for the "illegal" labor pool, our way of life in California would crumble. No, I don't mind the competition.

I enjoy buying inexpensive wine and low cost produce based on the labors of illegal aliens. I do wish I had the option of buying wine and produce that didn't require those labors. It's hard to find. I shop at "farmer's markets" and I do buy "fair trade" goods from other countries. I always buy locally produced wines. But it's pretty hard to avoid the fruits of our current system (perhaps it's a lack of a system). I also agree with you that things could be a lot better.

I'm rambling here, but the fact is, I don't have any competition Jeff. I have as much work as I have time to do it in. I could handle more if I hired employees, of course, but I've been down that road and I didn't like it. I have enough trouble being responsible for myself. :wink:

-Jeff

Reportanddeport

04-24-2008, 04:26 PM

"Wallowing in fear"? Well not even I do THAT. I spend my time wallowing in learning and in educationg others and in defending my country and in looking out for what is best for America overall. Of course I could be wallowing in something else, but to me it seems like a counstructive way to wallow.

Yeah, THAT'S IT, California will CRUMBLE without illegal aliens coming to rescue us. Illegal aliens, please come help us! Pleeeeeease, we're soooo weak. REALLYYYYY???

In reality, it's more like, "illegal aliens, pleeeeease come help us, we're sooooooo CHEAP".

BECAUSE, if your aliens were LEGAL, they would not be picking your grapes, they would be doing MY job. But as long as they are ILLegal, you can underpay them and exploit them, while simultaneously claiming that you can't get anyone else to do the work.

Parasites are totally dependent on the ILLegal status of their employess, and they can NEVER give them legal status, without it being part of a deal to KEEP THEM UNDER THEIR THUMBS.

OF COURSE you enjoy the inexpsensive wine, you and the other "conscious" Progressives (gag) drink at the expense of illegal aliens. And WHO AM I to interfere with YOUR GOOD TIMES? YOU'RE not doing the labor, you're only PROFITING from it. NOR are you being VICTIMIZED by the scum open borders brings, SOMEONE ELSE is being victimized. Thinking about how your actions effect others.... well.... that's just too DIFFICULT. You shouldn't have to be bothered by someone else's suffering.

YES, you are embedded in a culture that uses illegal aliens, and even I use illegal aliens when I go to McDonald's or Wendy's, but that's because they are EVERYWHERE due to the combination of selfish employers and uncaring citizens and uncaring law enforcement and uncaring politicians.

But I don't directly hire anyone.
Look, if you don't care about my kind of justice, then I certainly can't force it on you.
But I think there is more social justice when laws are ENFORCED than when laws are IGNORED.

I don't spend my life wallowing in fear of illegal aliens. I don't have time or energy for that and I have plenty of other things to fear. There is more work than I have time to do. If it wasn't for the "illegal" labor pool, our way of life in California would crumble. No, I don't mind the competition.

I enjoy buying inexpensive wine and low cost produce based on the labors of illegal aliens. I do wish I had the option of buying wine and produce that didn't require those labors. It's hard to find. I shop at "farmer's markets" and I do buy "fair trade" goods from other countries. I always buy locally produced wines. But it's pretty hard to avoid the fruits of our current system (perhaps it's a lack of a system). I also agree with you that things could be a lot better.

I'm rambling here, but the fact is, I don't have any competition Jeff. I have as much work as I have time to do it in. I could handle more if I hired employees, of course, but I've been down that road and I didn't like it. I have enough trouble being responsible for myself. :wink:

-Jeff