California legally still being Mexican, according to Grant, you sent your paperwork to the wrong government! :idea:
Oh, I get it now. It's THE GRANT. BWAHAHA on me!
Well, the US did pay about $3/sq mile. And that's where you caught me. Much of it, like the deserts of New Mexico, L.A. and ALL of Texas was not worth it, but then the Mexicans knew that as well.
Valley Oak
05-12-2008, 08:21 AM
What does SWMBO mean?
Thanks,
Edward
Touche'
Now you made me wake up SWMBO by LOL.
Braggi
05-12-2008, 08:23 AM
I support Dr. Paul, too.
I appreciate the fact that he expects citizens to educate themselves and be intelligent enough to take proper decisions for their own well being, without the state treating them like retarded children who require the care of nanny-politicians to keep them from hurting themselves.
Also, just for a sense of priority, is the "legality" of "drugs" Really! an issue, while we continue to send our children to murder people who have done us no harm?
Handy, that was a joke. I support the legalization of most of the "drugs of abuse" but Lenny does not and vociferously defends the current Failed War on Some Drugs which was actually invented post prohibition to give the "G-men" something to do after alcohol was relegalized. In that sense, it has been a stellar success in that it has brought our governments to their knees trying to pay for the massive increase in police and prison forces. As far as controlling the sale and use of drugs, it has failed miserably, but then that is by design since every army needs an enemy to justify its existence. If it succeeded we wouldn't need all the law enforcement muscle and they'd have to seek productive work. Can you imagine how good it would be for our economy if half the police force, half the prison workers and half the prisoners were suddenly set free to work in factories, farms, the medical industry, high tech or some other productive field? The mind reels.
I actually do think antibiotics should be controlled in some way because I think people still take way too many of them, but I'm not sure what the mechanism should be for that control. Isn't that amazing? I don't have all the answers. :wink:
-Jeff
Braggi
05-12-2008, 08:25 AM
What does SWMBO mean?
Edward! Learn to use Google.
She Who Must Be Obeyed! Don't you have one or two of those? :wink:
-Jeff
PS. Lenny, I sure hope you weren't taking a drink of milk when you read that.
MsTerry
05-12-2008, 09:39 AM
So then he was saying;
She Who Must Be Obeyed by Little Old Lady?:hmmm:
Edward! Learn to use Google.
She Who Must Be Obeyed! Don't you have one or two of those? :wink:
-Jeff
PS. Lenny, I sure hope you weren't taking a drink of milk when you read that.
Sara S
05-12-2008, 10:01 AM
BWAHAHA yourself!
TEXAS isn't worth $3/sq mile? Tell that to all the folks who have oil royalties under that ground!
Sara S.
Oh, I get it now. It's THE GRANT. BWAHAHA on me!
Well, the US did pay about $3/sq mile. And that's where you caught me. Much of it, like the deserts of New Mexico, L.A. and ALL of Texas was not worth it, but then the Mexicans knew that as well.
Zeno Swijtink
05-12-2008, 12:40 PM
This article shows how difficult it often is to distinguish the illegal citizens from the legal citizens because the archaic/anarchistic/freedom-loving nature of citizen registration we have.
May 12, 2008
Voter ID Battle Shifts to Proof of Citizenship
By IAN URBINA
The battle over voting rights will expand this week as lawmakers in Missouri are expected to support a proposed constitutional amendment to enable election officials to require proof of citizenship from anyone registering to vote.
The measure would allow far more rigorous demands than the voter ID requirement recently upheld by the Supreme Court, in which voters had to prove their identity with a government-issued card.
Sponsors of the amendment — which requires the approval of voters to go into effect, possibly in an August referendum — say it is part of an effort to prevent illegal immigrants from affecting the political process. Critics say the measure could lead to the disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of legal residents who would find it difficult to prove their citizenship.
Voting experts say the Missouri amendment represents the next logical step for those who have supported stronger voter ID requirements and the next battleground in how elections are conducted. Similar measures requiring proof of citizenship are being considered in at least 19 state legislatures. Bills in Florida, Kansas, Oklahoma and South Carolina have strong support. But only in Missouri does the requirement have a chance of taking effect before the presidential election.
In Arizona, the only state that requires proof of citizenship to register to vote, more than 38,000 voter registration applications have been thrown out since the state adopted its measure in 2004. That number was included in election data obtained through a lawsuit filed by voting rights advocates and provided to The New York Times. More than 70 percent of those registrations came from people who stated under oath that they were born in the United States, the data showed.
Already, 25 states, including Missouri, require some form of identification at the polls. Seven of those states require or can request photo ID. More states may soon decide to require photo ID now that the Supreme Court has upheld the practice. Democrats have already criticized these requirements as implicitly intended to keep lower-income voters from the polls, and are likely to fight even more fiercely now that the requirements are expanding to include immigration status.
“Three forces are converging on the issue: security, immigration and election verification,” said Dr. Robert A. Pastor, co-director of the Center for Democracy and Election Management at American University in Washington. This convergence, he said, partly explains why such measures are likely to become more popular and why they will make election administration, which is already a highly partisan issue, even more heated and litigious.
The Missouri secretary of state, Robin Carnahan, a Democrat who opposes the measure, estimated that it could disenfranchise up to 240,000 registered voters who would be unable to prove their citizenship.
In most of the states that require identification, voters can use utility bills, paychecks, driver’s licenses or student or military ID cards to prove their identity. In the Democratic primary election last week in Indiana, several nuns were denied ballots because they lacked the required photo IDs.
Measures requiring proof of citizenship raise the bar higher because they offer fewer options for documentation. In most cases, aspiring voters would have to produce an original birth certificate, naturalization papers or a passport. Arizona and Missouri, along with some other states, now show whether a driver is a citizen on the face of a driver’s license, and within a few years all states will be required by the federal government to restrict licenses to legal residents.
Critics say that when this level of documentation is applied to voting, it becomes more difficult for the poor, disabled, elderly and minorities to participate in the political process.
“Everyone has been focusing on voter ID laws generally, but the most pernicious measures and the ones that really promise to prevent the most eligible voters from voting is what we see in Arizona and now in Missouri,” said Jon Greenbaum, a former voting rights official at the Department of Justice and now the director of the voting rights project at the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, a liberal advocacy group.
Aside from its immediacy, the action by Missouri is important because it has been a crucial swing state in recent presidential elections, with outcomes often decided by a razor-thin margin.
Supporters of the measures cite growing concerns that illegal immigrants will try to vote. They say proof of citizenship measures are an important way to improve the accuracy of registration rolls and the overall voter confidence in the process.
State Representative Stanley Cox, a Republican from Sedalia and the sponsor of the amendment, said that the Missouri Constitution already required voters to be citizens and that his amendment was simply meant to better enforce that requirement.
“The requirements we have right now are totally inadequate,” Mr. Cox said. “You can present a utility bill, and that doesn’t prove anything. I could sit here with my nice photocopier and create a thousand utility bills with different names on them.”
From October 2002 to September 2005, the Justice Department indicted 40 voters for registration fraud or illegal voting, 21 of whom were noncitizens, according to department records.
In 2006, the Missouri legislature passed a photo identification bill that the State Supreme Court later ruled unconstitutional because it placed too much of a burden on voters. It was that ruling that has spurred state lawmakers to try to change the constitution.
The proposed amendment does not require the signature of the governor but would need to be approved by the voters in the state’s August primary in the governor’s race to take effect before the presidential election.
If passed this week, the amendment clears the way for a pending bill that would require some kind of identification in order to prove citizenship and to register to vote. But many questions about the bill — like whether current registered voters will have to obtain a new form of identification — have not been resolved.
Lillie Lewis, a voter who lives in St. Louis and spoke at a news conference last week organized to oppose the amendment, said she already had a difficult time trying to get a photo ID from the state, which asked her for a birth certificate. Ms. Lewis, who was born in Mississippi and said she was 78 years old, said officials of that state sent her a letter stating that they had no record of her birth.
“That’s downright wrong,” Ms. Lewis said. “I have voted in almost all of the presidential races going back I can’t remember how long, but if they tell me I need a passport or birth certificate that’ll be the end of that.”
A 2006 federal rule intended to keep illegal immigrants from receiving Medicaid was widely criticized by state officials for shutting out tens of thousands of United States citizens who were unable to find birth certificates or other documents proving their citizenship.
Supporters of citizenship requirements, however, say the threat of voting by illegal immigrants is real. Thor Hearne, a lawyer for the American Center for Voting Rights, a conservative advocacy group, cited a California congressional race in 1996 in which a Republican, Bob Dornan, was narrowly defeated. Mr. Dornan contested the results, claiming that illegal immigrants had voted.
After a 14-month investigation by state, county and federal officials, a panel concluded that up to 624 noncitizens may have registered to vote. The report came to no firm determination of whether any of those people had actually voted.
Mr. Hearne said the requirement would not pose a significant hardship on voters.
“There were a lot of the same alarmist charges regarding Indiana voter ID law and how it would disenfranchise so many people,” Mr. Hearne said, “and those allegations were not accepted by the Supreme Court.” He added that if states actively provided a free form of identification proving citizenship, the number of people who would be disenfranchised would be very low.
“To those who have spent great energy opposing some of the voter registration or voter identification requirements, I would say their energy would be much better spent working toward trying to provide identifications to those who need them or assisting these people with getting registered,” Mr. Hearne said.
But organizations working in Arizona say they are doing just that and running into problems.
“The requirement is having a devastating effect on our voter registration work in Latino communities because so many citizens simply don’t have a passport or original birth certificate,” said Michael Slater, deputy director of Project Vote, a liberal advocacy group that is working with Acorn, a national organizing group, to sign up new voters in Arizona.
But Arizona officials say the measure is broadly popular in the state
“The voters of Arizona feel strongly about proof of citizenship when registering to vote as a basic eligibility requirement,” said the secretary of state, Jan Brewer, a Republican, testifying before Congress in March.
Copyright 2008 The New York Times Company
Sabrina
05-12-2008, 01:27 PM
Yes, this easily could become a problem. I luckily have a copy of my birth certificate right now, but I remember it was VERY hard for me to obtain, and actually took over a month since the hospital I was born in was torn down, and the records are kept somewhere else (I forget now, what the red tape chain of events was because I got it sent to me over 10 years ago). It may even by harder for people to get now if they've lost it. So ridiculous.
This article shows how difficult it often is to distinguish the illegal citizens from the legal citizens because the archaic/anarchistic/freedom-loving nature of citizen registration we have.
May 12, 2008
Voter ID Battle Shifts to Proof of Citizenship
By IAN URBINA
The battle over voting rights will expand this week as lawmakers in Missouri are expected to support a proposed constitutional amendment to enable election officials to require proof of citizenship from anyone registering to vote.
The measure would allow far more rigorous demands than the voter ID requirement recently upheld by the Supreme Court, in which voters had to prove their identity with a government-issued card.
Sponsors of the amendment — which requires the approval of voters to go into effect, possibly in an August referendum — say it is part of an effort to prevent illegal immigrants from affecting the political process. Critics say the measure could lead to the disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of legal residents who would find it difficult to prove their citizenship.
Voting experts say ...
Lenny
05-12-2008, 03:45 PM
So then he was saying;
She Who Must Be Obeyed by Little Old Lady?:hmmm:
No, I woke up She Who Must Be Obeyed by Laughing Out Loud!
The SWMBO is from Rumple of The Bailey by John Mortimer, made into a PBS TV series for Mystery several years ago.
And YES, I support KCRB, but wish they would put back Mystery.
Lenny
05-12-2008, 06:02 PM
After cleaning up the milk on this machine, I had to respond to this outrageous mistork! I can't "support" this War on Drugs, as there is no objective to it, and Nixon's first use of it was based on some Democratic language (another great "war" waged with the same outcome) known as the War on Poverty. That alone would make me against it!
I knew a fella once, that was a smuggler and is now a very successful business man. The FBI did a training film based on him alone. He ran about almost ALL the marijuana in S.F. during the later half of the 1960s. He started out with a pilot's license and brought some linoleum from his in-laws in Mexico to US. Found that to be easy. In his prime he was renting and abandoning three different S.F. houses a week and leaving his dope there, dealing with only one other person. I met him after he had done prison time. He told me that the fellows he was incarcerated with were not as the little kids I see running around here, nor like you, casual smokers. The notion that there is massive police, courts, prison, etc for regular dope smoking folks is a misleading, at least in California and the other boutique states. And yeah, I know about that one guy in Texas that got 50 years! for .0 grams of weed. But then no one admits to THE REST OF THE STORY. However, as a good friend who was a communist, told me that MOST of the G-men were out gathering information against the communists that were organizing labor during prohibition and the Depression time afterwords. Good to have a perversion of friends! And I'm only worth about :2cents: soaking wet.
PS: I am utterly shocked that you would limit antibiotics to adults that wish to use them for the betterment of their physical health! and allow dope to be advertised on TV before 8:00 PM. Shocked!
Don't you find adults capable and reasonable for THESE drugs, but not the others? And can anyone make that decision? How arbitrary! Or is this one of those hobgoblin consistencies that plague the thoughtful?
I wish I can give you LONG, BORING pages of those that claim this and that, and it would be easy to show, with photos, that cankers, pustules, clap, and a whole HOST of...well, hosts, that got laid to waste!
Oh, no, it's not that you are against WASTE, are you?
Now, see, Jeff, in a dither over this, I am! Almost :2cents:
PS: we both admit we don't always get it right nor have all, if any, of the answers, but let's see if we can EVEN get a decent question!
Handy, that was a joke. I support the legalization of most of the "drugs of abuse" but Lenny does not and vociferously defends the current Failed War on Some Drugs which was actually invented post prohibition to give the "G-men" something to do after alcohol was relegalized. In that sense, it has been a stellar success in that it has brought our governments to their knees trying to pay for the massive increase in police and prison forces. As far as controlling the sale and use of drugs, it has failed miserably, but then that is by design since every army needs an enemy to justify its existence. If it succeeded we wouldn't need all the law enforcement muscle and they'd have to seek productive work. Can you imagine how good it would be for our economy if half the police force, half the prison workers and half the prisoners were suddenly set free to work in factories, farms, the medical industry, high tech or some other productive field? The mind reels.
I actually do think antibiotics should be controlled in some way because I think people still take way too many of them, but I'm not sure what the mechanism should be for that control. Isn't that amazing? I don't have all the answers. :wink:
-Jeff
handy
05-12-2008, 08:34 PM
Handy, that was a joke. I support the legalization of most of the "drugs of abuse" but Lenny does not and vociferously defends the current Failed War on Some Drugs which was actually invented post prohibition to give the "G-men" something to do after alcohol was relegalized. In that sense, it has been a stellar success in that it has brought our governments to their knees trying to pay for the massive increase in police and prison forces. As far as controlling the sale and use of drugs, it has failed miserably, but then that is by design since every army needs an enemy to justify its existence. If it succeeded we wouldn't need all the law enforcement muscle and they'd have to seek productive work. Can you imagine how good it would be for our economy if half the police force, half the prison workers and half the prisoners were suddenly set free to work in factories, farms, the medical industry, high tech or some other productive field? The mind reels.
I actually do think antibiotics should be controlled in some way because I think people still take way too many of them, but I'm not sure what the mechanism should be for that control. Isn't that amazing? I don't have all the answers. :wink:
-Jeff
Yah, don't have many answers myself. Seems that the control mechanism for most medically important drugs can be handled at the local doctor-patient-pharmacist-family loop level 99.9% of the time, with occasional calls to city or county level attention in emergency or other special case. Any data you feed on "up" to state or fed level unnecessarily, will probably come back to bite somebody local. Later. Expensively. Without fixing anything.
If you want to change the output of a system,
you have to change the design of the system.
but I digress...
not enough time now. more later :thumbsup:
Reportanddeport
05-14-2008, 03:53 PM
It's ABOUT TIME some government in the U.S. started requiring proof of citizenship to register to vote. It is LONG overdue.
I DON'T believe that a birth certificate is all that hard to come by. I DO believe that Democrats want illegal aliens to vote for them, so yes it will be hard for Democrats for awhile, until they adjust to it.
Try to to wrap your mind around this concept: In the U.S.A., citizenship means something and it should be protected.
This article shows how difficult it often is to distinguish the illegal citizens from the legal citizens because the archaic/anarchistic/freedom-loving nature of citizen registration we have.
May 12, 2008
Voter ID Battle Shifts to Proof of Citizenship
By IAN URBINA
The battle over voting rights will expand this week as lawmakers in Missouri are expected to support a proposed constitutional amendment to enable election officials to require proof of citizenship from anyone registering to vote.
The measure would allow far more rigorous demands than the voter ID requirement recently upheld by the Supreme Court, in which voters had to prove their identity with a government-issued card.
Sponsors of the amendment — which requires the approval of voters to go into effect, possibly in an August referendum — say it is part of an effort to prevent illegal immigrants from affecting the political process. Critics say the measure could lead to the disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of legal residents who would find it difficult to prove their citizenship.
Voting experts say the Missouri amendment represents the next logical step for those who have supported stronger voter ID requirements and the next battleground in how elections are conducted. Similar measures requiring proof of citizenship are being considered in at least 19 state legislatures. Bills in Florida, Kansas, Oklahoma and South Carolina have strong support. But only in Missouri does the requirement have a chance of taking effect before the presidential election.
In Arizona, the only state that requires proof of citizenship to register to vote, more than 38,000 voter registration applications have been thrown out since the state adopted its measure in 2004. That number was included in election data obtained through a lawsuit filed by voting rights advocates and provided to The New York Times. More than 70 percent of those registrations came from people who stated under oath that they were born in the United States, the data showed.
...
Reportanddeport
05-14-2008, 09:39 PM
More tacky garbage from someone devoid of class and a grip on reality.
You can take your syrupy and phony farewell and shove it you know where.
It's one thing to spew your nonsense in this forum, but I don't know why you have to email it to me as well.
If I get kicked out of waccobb, then it's not like I'm gonna lose any sleep over it.
I'm not dead yet, but when it happens, so what.
Jeff a.k.a. Reportanddeport
<TABLE class=messageheader cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=label noWrap>From:</TD><TD>"Jeffry Winters" <[email protected]> https://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/nt/ic/ut/bsc/txtmess12_1.gifAdd Mobile Alert (https://us.f338.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?MsgId=7089_0_1444_1718_652_0_17218_1179_3282920271_oSOYkYn4Ur6Rg9GuJfSMZyuMRoKfkxsL1feZmqFiUEbip3dadhrvFduEUhAULyJ1gLQ2Zj23Y_yfFaEqaN_64ysJ jyvG2bh96ydELUIP7MqOKZAswxXLhyLcW.1vSsxvqZLR6U9sh4Kc_pGSRVZb5h#)</TD></TR><TR><TD class=label noWrap>To:</TD><TD>"Report and Deport" <[email protected]></TD></TR><TR><TD class=label noWrap>Subject:</TD><TD>Re: It's time to fade away</TD></TR><TR><TD class=label noWrap>Date:</TD><TD>Wed, 14 May 2008 21:04:39 -0700</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><FORM name=frmAddAddrs action=https://address.mail.yahoo.com/yab/us?v=YM&.rand=66481&A=m&simp=1 method=post> </FORM><STYLE id=ssxyzzy media=screen>#message708901444171865201721811793282920271oSOYkYn4Ur6Rg9GuJfSMZyuMRoKfkxsL1feZmqFiUEbip3dadhrvFduEUhAULyJ1gLQ2Zj23YyfFaEqaN64ysJjyvG2bh96ydELUIP7MqO KZAswxXLhyLcW1vSsxvqZLR6U9sh4KcpGSRVZb5hPU3MECkzsW8hYnl9SKv1w { overflow:auto; visibility:hidden }</STYLE>
<!-- type = text -->
<TT>On May 14, 2008, at 2:39 PM, Report and Deport wrote:> I've already stated that I never expected to last in waccobb any > way. It is 'racist" to disagree with a Liberal. The mere disagreeing > with a Lib is all is it takes to qualify as such. Whatever happens > happens.If that's what you think you learned, I'm sorry, you missed an opportunity. I think that's the chip you were carrying when you arrived. What you could have observed is how to carry on an online conversation with people who disagree with you without being belligerent or insulting. A lot of people on Wacco are able to avoid those traps and impediments to conversation and still have passionate and vigorous debates. Not everyone on Wacco agrees with everyone else, but the discussions usually avoid comments that are hurtful in a deeply personal way or are completely dismissive of the other person.I know you have a message you are passionate about that you want to deliver to a wider audience. You could have done some of that on Wacco but you chose to write in a way that left no opening for discussion.It's your loss. I hope you do better next time.Fare well,-Jeff</TT></PRE><!-- toctype = X-unknown --><!-- toctype = text --><!-- text -->
kpage9
05-14-2008, 09:54 PM
Do you really think you wouldn't be missed?
I'm not dead yet, but when it happens, so what.
Jeff a.k.a. Reportanddeport
MsTerry
05-14-2008, 09:57 PM
This Repo guy is trying his darnest to get kicked off.LOL
He probably lists all the sites that he got kicked off, so he can wear it as a badge. LMAO
Barry, maybe you can give him a sticker, just like they do at Whole Foods for the kids.
If I get kicked out of waccobb, then it's not like I'm gonna lose any sleep over it.
<tt></tt><!-- toctype = X-unknown --><!-- toctype = text --><!-- text -->
Barry
05-15-2008, 03:15 AM
You're history! Thanks for coming to visit for a while, but your welcome has now worn out.
More tacky garbage from someone devoid of class and a grip on reality.
You can take your syrupy and phony farewell and shove it you know where.
It's one thing to spew your nonsense in this forum, but I don't know why you have to email it to me as well.
If I get kicked out of waccobb, then it's not like I'm gonna lose any sleep over it.
I'm not dead yet, but when it happens, so what.
Jeff a.k.a. Reportanddeport
<table class="messageheader" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="label" nowrap="nowrap">From:</td><td>"Jeffry Winters"
https://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/nt/ic/ut/bsc/txtmess12_1.gifAdd Mobile Alert (https://us.f338.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?MsgId=7089_0_1444_1718_652_0_17218_1179_3282920271_oSOYkYn4Ur6Rg9GuJfSMZyuMRoKfkxsL1feZmqFiUEbip3dadhrvFduEUhAULyJ1gLQ2Zj23Y_yfFaEqaN_64ysJ jyvG2bh96ydELUIP7MqOKZAswxXLhyLcW.1vSsxvqZLR6U9sh4Kc_pGSRVZb5h#)</[email protected]></td></tr><tr><td class="label" nowrap="nowrap">To:</td><td>"Report and Deport" <[email protected]></[email protected]></td></tr><tr><td class="label" nowrap="nowrap">Subject:</td><td>Re: It's time to fade away</td></tr><tr><td class="label" nowrap="nowrap">Date:</td><td>Wed, 14 May 2008 21:04:39 -0700</td></tr></tbody></table><form name="frmAddAddrs" action="https://address.mail.yahoo.com/yab/us?v=YM&.rand=66481&A=m&simp=1" method="post"> </form>
<!-- type = text -->
<tt>On May 14, 2008, at 2:39 PM, Report and Deport wrote:> I've already stated that I never expected to last in waccobb any > way. It is 'racist" to disagree with a Liberal. The mere disagreeing > with a Lib is all is it takes to qualify as such. Whatever happens > happens.If that's what you think you learned, I'm sorry, you missed an opportunity. I think that's the chip you were carrying when you arrived. What you could have observed is how to carry on an online conversation with people who disagree with you without being belligerent or insulting. A lot of people on Wacco are able to avoid those traps and impediments to conversation and still have passionate and vigorous debates. Not everyone on Wacco agrees with everyone else, but the discussions usually avoid comments that are hurtful in a deeply personal way or are completely dismissive of the other person.I know you have a message you are passionate about that you want to deliver to a wider audience. You could have done some of that on Wacco but you chose to write in a way that left no opening for discussion.It's your loss. I hope you do better next time.Fare well,-Jeff</tt><!-- toctype = X-unknown --><!-- toctype = text --><!-- text -->
Valley Oak
05-15-2008, 06:17 AM
I am so very sad and heartbroken that Report & Deport is gone! I am crying my eyes out. I have not been able to sleep and I am very depressed. I miss him so! R&D, please come back! Sweetie, I never gave you a hug and a kiss like I have with other men.
Boo hoo,
Edward
You're history! Thanks for coming to visit for a while, but your welcome has now worn out.
MsTerry
05-15-2008, 06:38 AM
Barry,
you shouldn't encourage the guy, by putting the word BANNED under his name he will use it to brag and wear it as a medal!
I suggest a word like 'inactive' or 'unavailable'
:heart:
You're history! Thanks for coming to visit for a while, but your welcome has now worn out.
kpage9
05-15-2008, 08:35 AM
JEEZ, Edward! Did we need R&D around to remind us of how sane WE could be?
No, of course I'm not taking you literally. It's sarcasm and ridicule and baiting that we objected to in R&D (well yes and his actual point of view).
kathy
quote=Valley Oak;58795]I am so very sad and heartbroken that Report & Deport is gone! I am crying my eyes out. I have not been able to sleep and I am very depressed. I miss him so! R&D, please come back! Sweetie, I never gave you a hug and a kiss like I have with other men.
Boo hoo,
Edward[/quote]
Melodymama
05-15-2008, 09:17 AM
Glad this decision has been made. I was beginning to wonder how everyone was tolerating the tirades and name calling. Thank you, Barry. Laura
Sabrina
05-15-2008, 12:00 PM
Actually his reason for being discontinued should be : Alien to the human race
Barry,
you shouldn't encourage the guy, by putting the word BANNED under his name he will use it to brag and wear it as a medal!
I suggest a word like 'inactive' or 'unavailable'
:heart:
thewholetruth
05-16-2008, 06:21 AM
Actually his reason for being discontinued should be : Alien to the human race
Actually, the man is gone so how about we stop gossiping about him?
Valley Oak
05-16-2008, 08:25 AM
It was interesting to see how often the Ron Paul supporters on this list agreed on various points with R&D.
I wonder if there's a connection?
Edward
JEEZ, Edward! Did we need R&D around to remind us of how sane WE could be?
No, of course I'm not taking you literally. It's sarcasm and ridicule and baiting that we objected to in R&D (well yes and his actual point of view).
kathy
quote=Valley Oak;58795]I am so very sad and heartbroken that Report & Deport is gone! I am crying my eyes out. I have not been able to sleep and I am very depressed. I miss him so! R&D, please come back! Sweetie, I never gave you a hug and a kiss like I have with other men.
Boo hoo,
Edward[/quote]
MsTerry
05-16-2008, 08:32 AM
Who needs R&D when we have VO?
I am so very sad and heartbroken that Report & Deport is gone! I am crying my eyes out. I have not been able to sleep and I am very depressed. I miss him so! R&D, please come back! Sweetie, I never gave you a hug and a kiss like I have with other men.
Boo hoo,
Edward
Valley Oak
05-16-2008, 08:36 AM
Good point!
(Do you care to elaborate, my friend?)
Hugs & Kisses,
Edward
Who needs R&D when we have VO?
MsTerry
05-16-2008, 01:04 PM
Good point!
(Do you care to elaborate, my friend?)
Hugs & Kisses,
Edward
Are you asking me to spell it out?
MsTerry
05-16-2008, 01:04 PM
Good point!
(Do you care to elaborate, my friend?)
Hugs & Kisses,
Edward
Are you asking me to spell it out?
Valley Oak
05-16-2008, 02:39 PM
Precisely.
It's hard but you can do it.
Thank you,
Edward
Are you asking me to spell it out?
MsTerry
05-16-2008, 04:47 PM
OK VO
your post about R&D was the same kind of taunting that he does,
Now he was on your ignore list and now he is not able to respond to your taunts. It's called kicking a man when he is down.
Anything else I can help you with, today?
Precisely.
It's hard but you can do it.
Thank you,
Edward
Valley Oak
05-16-2008, 05:56 PM
Yes, there is something else you can do...
Please accept a thank you from me for your frankness and sincerity. That's part of what friends are for ;-)
Edward
OK VO
your post about R&D was the same kind of taunting that he does,
Now he was on your ignore list and now he is not able to respond to your taunts. It's called kicking a man when he is down.
Anything else I can help you with, today?
MsTerry
05-16-2008, 07:03 PM
you're welcome
:thumbsup:
Yes, there is something else you can do...
Please accept a thank you from me for your frankness and sincerity. That's part of what friends are for ;-)
Edward
Zeno Swijtink
05-16-2008, 08:56 PM
you're welcome
:thumbsup:
Is it a good thing that this thread about "Illegal Aliens" peters out in an expression of mutual affection between MsTerry and Valley Oak, or is there still this elephant in the room: the 13 million people living within these borders, disenfranchised, anxious, with a cultural, religious, artistic, economic, literary, ..., heritage that they haven't expressed yet?
Valley Oak
05-16-2008, 09:11 PM
OK, what shall we do then about '...the 13 million people living within these borders, disenfranchised, anxious, with a cultural, religious, artistic, economic, literary, ..., heritage that they haven't expressed yet?'
What do you propose we do? Vote for Obama? Vote for Hillary? Organize another public demonstration in favor of immigrant rights? By the way, I marched on the first of May recently in favor of immigrant rights. Were you there?
So, what shall we do then about immigrant rights, discrimination, racism, xenophobia, etc? What do you propose?
We're all ears,
Edward
Is it a good thing that this thread about "Illegal Aliens" peters out in an expression of mutual affection between MsTerry and Valley Oak, or is there still this elephant in the room: the 13 million people living within these borders, disenfranchised, anxious, with a cultural, religious, artistic, economic, literary, ..., heritage that they haven't expressed yet?
Zeno Swijtink
05-16-2008, 09:36 PM
OK, what shall we do then about '...the 13 million people living within these borders, disenfranchised, anxious, with a cultural, religious, artistic, economic, literary, ..., heritage that they haven't expressed yet?'
What do you propose we do? Vote for Obama? Vote for Hillary? Organize another public demonstration in favor of immigrant rights? By the way, I marched on the first of May recently in favor of immigrant rights. Were you there?
So, what shall we do then about immigrant rights, discrimination, racism, xenophobia, etc? What do you propose?
We're all ears,
Edward
I was thinking of having a Spanish/English poetry reading where each poem is translated in the other language.
Valley Oak
05-16-2008, 09:44 PM
Awesome!
I can translate poetry from Federico Garcia Lorca, Antonio Machado, Pablo Neruda, Octavio Paz, Rafael Alberti, and many, many more!
We named our daughter after Lorca.
When and where?
Edward
I was thinking of having a Spanish/English poetry reading where each poem is translated in the other language.
MsTerry
05-16-2008, 09:45 PM
Eduardo,
Le puedes traducir para nosotros? Si pues?
I was thinking of having a Spanish/English poetry reading where each poem is translated in the other language.
Valley Oak
05-16-2008, 09:51 PM
Sure.
'Estaba pensando en tener una lectura de poesia de ingles y espanol, con cada poema traducido al otro idioma.'
Zeno Swijtink wrote: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/orangebuttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?p=58993#post58993)
I was thinking of having a Spanish/English poetry reading where each poem is translated in the other language.
Eduardo,
Le puedes traducir para nosotros? Si pues?
Zeno Swijtink
05-16-2008, 10:06 PM
Awesome!
I can translate poetry from Federico Garcia Lorca, Antonio Machado, Pablo Neruda, Octavio Paz, Rafael Alberti, and many, many more!
We named our daughter after Lorca.
When and where?
Edward
I would like to involve Armando Garcia-Davila and Jonah Raskin. Can be an event in Sebastopol early July. Could be a fundraiser for a daily poetry reading on KRCB with alternating poems in Spanish and English.
Valley Oak
05-16-2008, 10:18 PM
This sounds fantastic!
How do we go about organizing this?
Does anyone else want to volunteer in putting this together?
Edward
I would like to involve Armando Garcia-Davila and Jonah Raskin. Can be an event in Sebastopol early July. Could be a fundraiser for a daily poetry reading on KRCB with alternating poems in Spanish and English.
Sara S
05-17-2008, 06:25 AM
This sounds really fun, and I love poetry, but what help will it actually give an immigrant, legal or otherwise?
Remember, we are talking here mainly about folks who have left their homeland because they could not survive on the pay they could earn there.
I suggest that you hire them when you need labor or give them food when you have more than you need; I've begun volunteer work with the Adult Literary Services, through the Library, teaching adults to read English (or to read it better).
Sara S.
This sounds fantastic!
How do we go about organizing this?
Does anyone else want to volunteer in putting this together?
Edward
Zeno Swijtink
05-17-2008, 07:02 AM
I see your point.
I think my idea was to approach this more indirectly, to create one of what can be many events that highlight points of contact between our cultural, religious, artistic, economic, and literary heritages.
This sounds really fun, and I love poetry, but what help will it actually give an immigrant, legal or otherwise?
Remember, we are talking here mainly about folks who have left their homeland because they could not survive on the pay they could earn there.
I suggest that you hire them when you need labor or give them food when you have more than you need; I've begun volunteer work with the Adult Literary Services, through the Library, teaching adults to read English (or to read it better).
Sara S.
Valley Oak
05-17-2008, 08:20 PM
Sara and others, I have volunteered for the Redwood Empire Food Bank (REFB), www.refb.org, here in Santa Rosa on many occasions. I have helped to organize several food drives at the SSU campus. Now, the REFB is present every semester with another food drive.
If anyone here wants to help out the REFB with raising food for the hungry, be they simply poor or immigrants, etc, please contact Miriam below. I have included her entire email so that you can get in touch with her and maybe get something started. She can help you plan a place and a strategy either for your local neighborhood or somewhere else, or with another activity.
Edward:
Hi. Your help getting the word out about a phenomenal local food drive
benefit would be greatly appreciated. Petaluma's Mystic Theatre is hosting a
"Battle of the Bands Food Drive" every Sunday in May. Hot local talent is
featured, great prizes offered from local businesses like Zone Music, etc.
The Mystic's goal is to collect 5,000 cans for REFB.
If you are interested in getting the word out at SSU (flyering, etc.),
please give Shennon O'Donnell, the Mystic's Manager, a telephone call. She
can be reached at, 765-9211.
Thanks Edward!
Best regards,
Miriam
Miriam Hodgman
Food Drive and Event Coordinator
Redwood Empire Food Bank
3320 Industrial Drive
Santa Rosa, CA 95403
707-523-7900, Ext. 27
This sounds really fun, and I love poetry, but what help will it actually give an immigrant, legal or otherwise?
Remember, we are talking here mainly about folks who have left their homeland because they could not survive on the pay they could earn there.
I suggest that you hire them when you need labor or give them food when you have more than you need; I've begun volunteer work with the Adult Literary Services, through the Library, teaching adults to read English (or to read it better).
Sara S.
lynn
07-26-2008, 03:11 PM
Valley..."OK, what shall we do then about '...the 13 million people living within these borders, disenfranchised, anxious, with a cultural, religious, artistic, economic, literary, ..., heritage that they haven't expressed yet?'"
What do we do about the ones here illegally, that main, kill, gang-bang, and ruin people's lives and neighborhoods and express those kinds of values so wonderfully?....We're suppose to keep letting people come in illegally, have anchor babies, and keep allowing depletion of water resources, among other things?....
Obviously, I am completely against illegal immigration...It's completely nuts to see what has happened in so many areas and my own neighborhood...To keep allowing such stress on communities and people who are citizens is insane.
Unfortunately both the U.S. and Mexican Gov'ts seem to want it that way...Sad, very very sad...
Everyone should be required to come here legally, and be sponsored if need be. That's just common sense.
thewholetruth
07-26-2008, 09:18 PM
Weirdo freaks who are conspiracy theorists have muddied the water a bit, but despite their insane imaginative hallucinations our own nation's leaders really are Hell-bent on creating a One World government. They've created the World Bank, they've managed to get the foolish Euro community behind them, and they want to rule the world. In order to take out the most powerful nation in the history of mankind, they must first dissolve the borders in North America. That is why they are doing what they are doing. We need to abandon our differences in the political/spiritual/moral arenas and unite against these Communists. Of course, our politicians plan on being the World Rulers, blinded by their insane lust for power, oblivious to the fact that Chinese leaders, other Communist leaders in Africa and across the globe might have a little problem with USA controlling the world.
We need to wake up and stand up and stop electing the fools they keep presenting to us. Ron Paul would be a great start in this election. He is not part of the One World Government conspiracy.
Valley..."OK, what shall we do then about '...the 13 million people living within these borders, disenfranchised, anxious, with a cultural, religious, artistic, economic, literary, ..., heritage that they haven't expressed yet?'"
What do we do about the ones here illegally, that main, kill, gang-bang, and ruin people's lives and neighborhoods and express those kinds of values so wonderfully?....We're suppose to keep letting people come in illegally, have anchor babies, and keep allowing depletion of water resources, among other things?....
Obviously, I am completely against illegal immigration...It's completely nuts to see what has happened in so many areas and my own neighborhood...To keep allowing such stress on communities and people who are citizens is insane.
Unfortunately both the U.S. and Mexican Gov'ts seem to want it that way...Sad, very very sad...
Everyone should be required to come here legally, and be sponsored if need be. That's just common sense.
phooph
07-26-2008, 11:54 PM
We need to abandon our differences in the political/spiritual/moral arenas and unite against these Communists. Of course, our politicians plan on being the World Rulers, blinded by their insane lust for power, oblivious to the fact that Chinese leaders, other Communist leaders in Africa and across the globe might have a little problem with USA controlling the world.
I loose patience with people who liberally toss around the word 'communist' without having a clue about what it is. Communism refers to a stateless, classless society in which everyone shares equally in the means of production - the great worker's paradise in which the workers own the business, so to speak.
With that in mind consider that neither the USSR nor the PRC managed to produce a truly communist society but only state run socialist dictatorships. Some tribal societies and small religious orders have managed to approach something akin to communism but no country has ever succeeded. Unfortunately the term became redefined by those unable to distinguish the original concept from the imperfect result.
What you are railing against is more accurately called collectivism, a societal structure in which the rights of the individual are subsumed by the needs of the greater society, the ultimate in stateism.
All of the indicators are that the current moves toward a one world government are being orchestrated by globalist corporations, entities that would not exist in a truly communist society. The goal is to open up the entire world to a dictatorship by corporations for the benefit of corporations, subsuming the needs of the individual to that of the corporations. These corporations use the government (state) as one of the tools with which they control their world. What we are observing is unchecked capitalism which left to its own devices becomes a kind of feudalism, thus the attempt by the founders of this country to put restrictions on the government and to separate the banking system (the heart of a corporatist system), religion (another tool of state power) and the government. The state has been captured by the corporations and is being run to benefit them at the expense of everyone else. Observe the current move to bail out homeowners at taxpayer expense. My sources in the banking world tell me this was a well orchestrated plan to transfer public (taxpayer) money to the private sector (bankers) using the government as the means and playing on the sympathies of the public for the beleaguered homeowners to gain support.
To the topic of illegal aliens, the point has been made repeatedly that the benefactors are the employers who have access to a large, cheap labor force. This also weakens any labor movements in this country and tips the power balance toward the corporations, another ploy that can only be defined as anti-communist, as communism is pro-labor, anti corporate. Illegal immigration will not go away as long as corporations run the country. Don't expect to see that change any time soon.
thewholetruth
07-27-2008, 12:17 AM
I loose patience with people who liberally toss around the word 'communist' without having a clue about what it is. Communism refers to a stateless, classless society in which everyone shares equally in the means of production - the great worker's paradise in which the workers own the business, so to speak.
I am simply using the definition of the word as it is most commonly understood and used in our generation. The true definition is nothing but a pipe dream, impossible for man to accomplish, IMO. I see no reason to refer to that definition when talking about Reality.
While I appreciate the rest of your post, I was trying to make a simpler point than all that. In order to do to the rest of the world what has already been done in Europe, American politicians must start by dissolving the Canadian and Mexican borders. That was my only point. I wasn't "railing against" anything. I was simply talking about Reality.
And a deep breath and a few moments of solitude will generally serve to restore your patience, I imagine...
Braggi
07-27-2008, 12:31 AM
I am simply using the definition of the word as it is most commonly understood and used in our generation. The true definition is nothing but a pipe dream, impossible for man to accomplish, IMO. I see no reason to refer to that definition when talking about Reality. ...
Gee, Don, aren't you the one who goes on and on about words having meaning? Let's use actual meanings of words instead of your "relative" meanings, OK?
... In order to do to the rest of the world what has already been done in Europe, American politicians must start by dissolving the Canadian and Mexican borders. ...
I'm in France right now Don. I can assure you that France is plenty nationalistic despite the fact they use a common currency with other nations. Europe had quite a number of problems with their multiplicity of currencies that North America does not face. There is little chance of a common currency appearing in North America anytime during our lifetimes. There is just no purpose that would be served by such a notion. The stories I've seen about the "Amero" appear as nonsense.
... I wasn't "railing against" anything. I was simply talking about Reality. ...
Heh heh. I suppose you mean, your "Reality."
-Jeff
Shepherd
07-27-2008, 07:27 AM
I also want to strongly object to the term "illegal alien." No human is illegal, though they may do things to survive that violate certain powerful people's rules. No human being is alien. A better description would be "undocumented worker." As a farmer, I know that California agriculture would be impossible without these hardworking farmworkers from various countires.
I also want to object to the nationalism that says we need to take care of people in this country first. All human beings equally deserve our care. Citizens of this country are not more deserving of care than those of other countries. Such nationalism continues to drive wars and kill people.
Shepherd
thewholetruth
07-27-2008, 07:58 AM
I also want to strongly object to the term "illegal alien."
That's what they are if they are here illegally. They are either citizens, visitors or illegal aliens. It's not a matter of opinion or slander. It's a fact.
No human is illegal...
It is their presence which is illegal, Shephard. Their presence (illegal) and their status (aliens, not citizens or visitors) = illegal aliens.
... though they may do things to survive that violate certain powerful people's rules.
Correct, which these particular individuals have done: violated our country's rules, violated our borders, disrespected and violated our laws.
No human being is alien. A better description would be "undocumented worker."
That's not accurate. They are aliens in a foreign land, here illegally. Hence, the term "illegal alien".
As a farmer, I know that California agriculture would be impossible without these hardworking farmworkers from various countires.
Bullcrap. "Impossible"? That's not true. It's totally doable and possible to operate our farms without the aid of criminals. I find it scary that American citizens even make that statement, that we "need" criminals in order to run our businesses. That's a lie from Hell.
I also want to object to the nationalism that says we need to take care of people in this country first.
It's not about "nationalism". For example: It's a fact that I'm not capable of helping others if my own house is not in order. It's God's way, Shephard. Our first ministry is at home. We must take care of the family first, and only then is the family healthy enough to go help others. It's another matter of fact.
All human beings equally deserve our care.
Granted, but when we aren't taking care of our own - and we're not - we're aren't able to effectively help others - and we're not.
Citizens of this country are not more deserving of care than those of other countries.
Yet citizens of this country are citizens of this country, and so are privvy to all of the benefits of being citizens. We're not denying anyone else citizenship. We're demanding that they follow protocol in achieving citizenship, and suggesting that they go somewhere where they ARE willing to follow the laws of the land.
Such nationalism continues to drive wars and kill people.
Shepherd
It's not about "nationalism". It's about logic and common sense...and national security.
thewholetruth
07-27-2008, 08:08 AM
Gee, Don, aren't you the one who goes on and on about words having meaning?
Why yes, Jeff, I am! :thumbsup:
Let's use actual meanings of words instead of your "relative" meanings, OK?
I'm not using "relative" meanings, Jeff. I'm using pertinent meanings, accurate definitions like this:
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</OBJECT><NOSCRIPT minmax_bound="true"></NOSCRIPT>Audio Help (https://dictionary.reference.com/help/audio.html) (kŏm'yə-nĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key (https://cache.lexico.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html)
<!--BOF_HEAD-->n.
<LI class=list_spacer>A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.<LI minmax_bound="true">Communism</FONT minmax_bound="true">
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I'm in France right now Don.
Good for you, Jeff. I hope you're actually experiencing it. What a shame it would be to take a trip to Europe and spend the whole time intoxicated, eh? As fun as getting intoxicated can be for some folks, there's nothing like actually being there with all your senses and faculties.
I can assure you that France is plenty nationalistic despite the fact they use a common currency with other nations. Europe had quite a number of problems with their multiplicity of currencies that North America does not face. There is little chance of a common currency appearing in North America anytime during our lifetimes. There is just no purpose that would be served by such a notion. The stories I've seen about the "Amero" appear as nonsense.
And yet, while it might "appear as nonsense", it's not.
Heh heh. I suppose you mean, your "Reality."
-Jeff
It's either Reality or it's illusion, Jeff. There is no in-between, and there is no such thing as "my reality" or "your reality". I believe you're referring to the difference in perception which we may not share regarding a particular event or circumstance. Reality is what it is, Jeff, not necessarily what we perceive it to be. Words mean something, remember?
MsTerry
07-27-2008, 08:15 AM
The true definition is nothing but a pipe dream, impossible for man to accomplish, IMO. I see no reason to refer to that definition when talking about Reality.
Words have a meaning, Sir
For you to distort the reality of that is akin to lying
MsTerry
07-27-2008, 08:34 AM
which these particular individuals have done: violated our country's rules, violated our borders, disrespected and violated our laws.
No Sir, they have not violated our rules.
If they weren't needed, they wouldn't come here.
It is actually the employers who break the law by giving them work.
Are you suggesting that there is some innocent American employer who lives here and doesn't know the law?
This country is ruled by CAPITALISM, which is ruled by supply and demand.
Those are the rules, Sir, and that is why people come here to WORK.
phooph
07-27-2008, 09:43 AM
com·mu·nism
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.Since there is no intent to share goods equally but to enrich a privileged class this definition does not apply.
The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.
Since this is being done by capitalists, this definition does not apply. <table minmax_bound="true"><tbody minmax_bound="true"><tr minmax_bound="true"><td minmax_bound="true">
</td></tr></tbody></table>
lynn
07-27-2008, 10:42 PM
Ms. Terry..."No Sir, they have not violated our rules."
It's estimated about 12 million or more have...
.."In addition to sneaking into the country (referred to as "entry without inspection — EWI") in violation of the immigration law, others enter with legal documentation and then violate the terms on which they have been admitted. The immigration authorities currently estimate that about two-thirds of all illegal immigrants are EWIs and the remainder is overstayers. Both types of illegal immigrants are deportable under Immigration and Nationality Act Section 237 (a)(1)(B) which says: "Any alien who is present in the United States in violation of this Act or any other law of the United States is deportable." ...
Zeno Swijtink
07-27-2008, 11:09 PM
Ms. Terry..."No Sir, they have not violated our rules."
It's estimated about 12 million or more have...
.."In addition to sneaking into the country (referred to as "entry without inspection — EWI") in violation of the immigration law, others enter with legal documentation and then violate the terms on which they have been admitted. The immigration authorities currently estimate that about two-thirds of all illegal immigrants are EWIs and the remainder is overstayers. Both types of illegal immigrants are deportable under Immigration and Nationality Act Section 237 (a)(1)(B) which says: "Any alien who is present in the United States in violation of this Act or any other law of the United States is deportable." ...
But "the country," as it includes Texas and California, maybe an illegal entity.
Texas and California were taken from Mexico in a war considered by one of our own presidents, Grant, to be an unjust war.
lynn
07-28-2008, 12:26 AM
Zeno..."Texas and California were taken from Mexico in a war considered by one of our own presidents, Grant, to be an unjust war."
Yeah, I ran across that somewhere on this or another board...
Either way...Maybe you don't care if we are sliding into becoming more like Mexico or part of Mexico...But, I sure do...
I talk to people in my neighborhood who have been here legally from Mexico for quite a while...They have seen the changes...how it has gotten worse and say it's going to get worse...
And for anyone who thinks all this illegal immigration is so great...Why don't you go around and help clean up the gang-related graffiti that gets slapped up all over the place, and help out with some gang prevention...I sure know people could use the help.
=========================
The Mexican standard of living is way below the US or Europe. The minimum wage is 46 pesos per day, about £2.20, or $4 US Dollars. There is little or no welfare state and no unemployment benefit. Mexico is one of the 4 worst countries in Latin America for income distribution. In 2007 Forbes magazine published an article indicating that Carlos Slim had a personal fortune of 53.1 billion dollars and was fast catching up on Bill Gates as the world's richest man. Many billionaires were created after the privatization of Mexican banks and telecoms in the 1990s
Official statistics are unreliable as it is officially claimed that unemployment is only 2%-3%. A more realistic employment estimate would be 40% unemployed or underemployed.
In a relatively well off society, the child with learning disabilities is generally well cared for, usually at home within the family. In a developing country such as Mexico, the child with learning disabilities often ends up homeless, in an overcrowded orphanage, or living amongst the street kids.
lynn
07-28-2008, 12:35 AM
Shepherd...I also want to strongly object to the term "illegal alien." No human is illegal, though they may do things to survive that violate certain powerful people's rules. No human being is alien. A better description would be "undocumented worker." As a farmer, I know that California agriculture would be impossible without these hardworking farmworkers from various countires.
Maybe 'humans' aren't 'illegal'...But as you point out, they do commit illegal acts (and not always for survival)...Thus the term Illegal immigrant...
I sure would consider it a big insult if the country I had struggled to come to legally didn't make note of the difference and do something about it.
I also want to object to the nationalism that says we need to take care of people in this country first. All human beings equally deserve our care. Citizens of this country are not more deserving of care than those of other countries. Such nationalism continues to drive wars and kill people.
Being a 'citizen' I certainly do expect certain 'advantages' of being one - I thought that was part of the whole point of being a citizen...It's not about who 'deserves' or not...It's about taking care of our own citizens, period...It sure does bother me, when I see illegals getting free health care, or other free services but citizens in need get their programs cut back, and/or can't afford the health care options they need...
As a farmer, I know that California agriculture would be impossible without these hardworking farmworkers from various countires.
I have a strange suspicion that if all illegal immgration were stopped, people here would find a way to continue growing and reaping the food and not starve.
Lenny
07-28-2008, 08:09 AM
But "the country," as it includes Texas and California, maybe an illegal entity.
The treaty with, and $18M dollars payment to, Mexico made it legal, que no?
Texas and California were taken from Mexico in a war considered by one of our own presidents, Grant, to be an unjust war.
Well, an alcoholic 2nd rate general will say anything when in his cups!
Lenny
07-28-2008, 08:21 AM
Valley..."OK, what shall we do then about '...the 13 million people living within these borders, disenfranchised, anxious, with a cultural, religious, artistic, economic, literary, ..., heritage that they haven't expressed yet?'"
What do we do about the ones here illegally, that maim, kill, gang-bang, and ruin people's lives and neighborhoods and express those kinds of values so wonderfully?....We're suppose to keep letting people come in illegally, have anchor babies, and keep allowing depletion of water resources, among other things?....
Obviously, I am completely against illegal immigration...It's completely nuts to see what has happened in so many areas and my own neighborhood...To keep allowing such stress on communities and people who are citizens is insane.
Unfortunately both the U.S. and Mexican Gov'ts seem to want it that way...Sad, very very sad...
Everyone should be required to come here legally, and be sponsored if need be. That's just common sense .
Everyone IS REQUIRED to come here legally, etc. And you are right: it is our government that has allowed this, thus becoming a party to this activity. You, as many others, have made an error due to language. Those here without papers are "UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS" and have done nothing "illegal". At worst what they have done is committed an infraction, something like a library fine or at worst a ticket for not having a tag on their license plate. Once they come into the legal system, for ANY REASON, then they are "illegal aliens".
The people are gathering The Will. The government is not. Big business is really not! And so, we have to listen to "Press 1 for English....."
It makes me sad as well. Nice folks, in large part, and I'd do the same, as did most our ancestors all over the planet, so they are not "the problem". The problem lies much closer to home.
Lenny
07-28-2008, 09:07 AM
I also want to strongly object to the term "illegal alien." No human is illegal, though they may do things to survive that violate certain powerful people's rules. No human being is alien. A better description would be "undocumented worker." As a farmer, I know that California agriculture would be impossible without these hardworking farmworkers from various countires.
The technical definition, by the government that is committed to address the issues is "undocumented ALIEN", as I've met some that don't seem to work. And if you introduce the "worker" notion then unions, fights, social security and a whole lot of unintended ugly jumps into the fray, as the variance in language and "worker" from this side of the border is greater than the origin of folks we're speaking about.
I also want to object to the nationalism that says we need to take care of people in this country first. All human beings equally deserve our care. Citizens of this country are not more deserving of care than those of other countries. Such nationalism continues to drive wars and kill people. Shepherd
One would think that people kill people, long before nationalism raised its head. As a nation and people born here we have a right to certain (and very different from Mexico) expectations of government, like a contract, and the practicality of the "binding" that holds US together may be frayed by this issue. Been known to happen that "aliens" get "blamed" for internal problems, thereby averting the real problems by letting politicians off the hook.
As a practical solution to farming issues one can understand your stated position, but as fewer than 1% are farmers, it's tough out here off the farm. I am sure it's harder ON the farm, but not as widespread and affect the greater number.
Lenny
07-28-2008, 09:26 AM
I loose patience with people who liberally toss around the word 'communist' without having a clue about what it is. Communism refers to a stateless, classless society in which everyone shares equally in the means of production - the great worker's paradise in which the workers own the business, so to speak.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist
https://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761572241/communism.html
With that in mind consider that neither the USSR nor the PRC managed to produce a truly communist society but only state run socialist dictatorships. Some tribal societies and small religious orders have managed to approach something akin to communism but no country has ever succeeded. Unfortunately the term became redefined by those unable to distinguish the original concept from the imperfect result.
"Communism only works in heaven where they don't need it and in
Hell where they already have it" - R. Reagan
Your notion, the ideal of Communism will never be reached as it is simply all that, an ideal. Just as Justice or Prudence, nor any other Ideal may be reached by human beings. So for all practical purposes we can stop tilting at windmills and call China a fascist state, which is another form of Socialism ( a subset of the ideal, Communism).
What you are railing against is more accurately called collectivism, a societal structure in which the rights of the individual are subsumed by the needs of the greater society, the ultimate in stateism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivism
https://freedomkeys.com/collectivism.htm
All of the indicators are that the current moves toward a one world government are being orchestrated by globalist corporations, entities that would not exist in a truly communist society. The goal is to open up the entire world to a dictatorship by corporations for the benefit of corporations, subsuming the needs of the individual to that of the corporations. These corporations use the government (state) as one of the tools with which they control their world. What we are observing is unchecked capitalism which left to its own devices becomes a kind of feudalism, thus the attempt by the founders of this country to put restrictions on the government and to separate the banking system (the heart of a corporatist system), religion (another tool of state power) and the government. The state has been captured by the corporations and is being run to benefit them at the expense of everyone else. Observe the current move to bail out homeowners at taxpayer expense. My sources in the banking world tell me this was a well orchestrated plan to transfer public (taxpayer) money to the private sector (bankers) using the government as the means and playing on the sympathies of the public for the beleaguered homeowners to gain support.
To the topic of illegal aliens, the point has been made repeatedly that the benefactors are the employers who have access to a large, cheap labor force. This also weakens any labor movements in this country and tips the power balance toward the corporations, another ploy that can only be defined as anti-communist, as communism is pro-labor, anti corporate. Illegal immigration will not go away as long as corporations run the country. Don't expect to see that change any time soon.
So, it is NOT slavery? Oh, wow!
Thank goodness. Was worried but now am free!
<sarcasm mode:="" off=""><sarcasm mode:off="">{Sarcasm mode:off}
Oh, and I find that it is not corporations that "control" gov't, but are simply one hand washing the other. I like that picture better; helps me sleep at night.</sarcasm></sarcasm>
phooph
07-28-2008, 10:44 AM
"Communism only works in heaven where they don't need it and in
Hell where they already have it" - R. Reagan
Your notion, the ideal of Communism will never be reached as it is simply all that, an ideal. Just as Justice or Prudence, nor any other Ideal may be reached by human beings. So for all practical purposes we can stop tilting at windmills and call China a fascist state, which is another form of Socialism ( a subset of the ideal, Communism).
So, it is NOT slavery? Oh, wow!
Thank goodness. Was worried but now am free!
<sarcasm mode:="" off=""><sarcasm mode:off="">{Sarcasm mode:off}
Oh, and I find that it is not corporations that "control" gov't, but are simply one hand washing the other. I like that picture better; helps me sleep at night.</sarcasm></sarcasm>
More than one observer has called China a fascist country as it moves to a capitalist economy. Capitalism and fascism have always been happy bedfellows as both are anti labor.
Yes, communism is an ideal that will never be reached on earth except possibly among small, committed, idealistic groups of people and then usually briefly. It was to be the ultimate free society, but has never been attained. The labor unions in this country were built by communists. Considering the gains made by the labor movement in improving the lot of workers, this was not a bad thing. Remember that before labor unions workers had no rights at all, and the 16 hour work day was not uncommon. There were no health and safety laws, no minimum wages and no workers compensation should you become injured by your work. During the cold war when communism became the enemy, the communists were forced out of the labor unions and they were taken over by organized crime, a great improvement in the minds of some as organized crime can be bought more easily than a bunch of idealists.
Mexico has no social programs, no workers compensation, no health and safety regulations, and a gross minimum wage of around $1,700 a year, etc. Since the implementation of NAFTA flooded their markets with cheap, heavily subsidized agricultural products from the US, approximately 2 million farmers have been put out of business as there are no social programs to subsidize farming in Mexico to make their products competitive with ours. There are no social programs to feed their families also, so they come to the US to work to keep their families from starving, and they bring their families with them when they can so they can partake of our social services. Had there been a strong and successful communist movement in the 1930s in Mexico as there was in the US leading to the development of strong labor unions and social programs they wouldn't be coming here to keep from starving to death. Had it not happened here, we would look a whole lot more like Mexico.
RichT
07-28-2008, 12:19 PM
New end-of-the-world date is sometime in 2012
“Thousands” in the Netherlands have signed on, even though they seem to be stocking up on supplies, which, well, y’know, if the world is ending, it’s ending. Anyway, one said, “I don’t like it here anymore. Take immigration, for example. They keep letting people in. And then we have to build more houses, which makes the Netherlands even heavier. The country will sink even lower, which will make the flooding worse.”
Lorrie
07-28-2008, 01:06 PM
This was nominated as the best joke of the year.
A Russian arrives in New York City as a new immigrant to the United States He stops the first person he sees walking down the street and says, 'Thank you, Mr. American, for letting me in this country , giving me housing, food stamps, free medical care, and free education!'
The passerby says, 'You are mistaken, I am Mexican.'
The man goes on and encounters another passerby... 'Thank you, Mr. American, for having such a beautiful country here in America !'
The person says, 'I not American, I'm Vietnamese.'
The new arrival walks further, and the next person he sees he stops, shakes his hand and says, 'Thank you, Mr. American, for this wonderful America!'
That person puts up his hand and says, 'I am from Middle East , I am not American!'
He finally sees a nice lady and asks, 'Are you an American?'
She says, 'No, I am from Africa !'
Puzzled, he asks her, 'Where are all the Americans?'
The African lady checks her watch and says, 'Probably at work!'
Dynamique
07-28-2008, 01:29 PM
Excellent point Pooph. what Thewholetruth is describing is fascism, or corporatism to use a more modern and accurate term, not communism. So, perhaps we are not getting the whole truth from Thewholetruth!
Despite this vocabulary stumble, I agree with his/her basic premise (but could do without the hysterical tone). Those who think that this is all hogwash should check out the recent works by "the two Naomis" -- Naomi Klien ("the shock doctrine") and Naomi Wolf ("the end of America").
I loose patience with people who liberally toss around the word 'communist' without having a clue about what it is. Communism refers to a stateless, classless society in which everyone shares equally in the means of production - the great worker's paradise in which the workers own the business, so to speak.
[clip]
To the topic of illegal aliens, the point has been made repeatedly that the benefactors are the employers who have access to a large, cheap labor force. This also weakens any labor movements in this country and tips the power balance toward the corporations, another ploy that can only be defined as anti-communist, as communism is pro-labor, anti corporate. Illegal immigration will not go away as long as corporations run the country. Don't expect to see that change any time soon.
kpage9
07-28-2008, 07:27 PM
Lorrie, I wonder who nominated this the joke of the year. It chills me to the bone, as its implication is that immigrants do not work, which would be a stupid and cruel message. Sometimes I don't get jokes, and may be missing something.
Kathy
This was nominated as the best joke of the year.
A Russian arrives in New York City as a new immigrant to the United States He stops the first person he sees walking down the street and says, 'Thank you, Mr. American, for letting me in this country , giving me housing, food stamps, free medical care, and free education!'
The passerby says, 'You are mistaken, I am Mexican.'
The man goes on and encounters another passerby... 'Thank you, Mr. American, for having such a beautiful country here in America !'
The person says, 'I not American, I'm Vietnamese.'
The new arrival walks further, and the next person he sees he stops, shakes his hand and says, 'Thank you, Mr. American, for this wonderful America!'
That person puts up his hand and says, 'I am from Middle East , I am not American!'
He finally sees a nice lady and asks, 'Are you an American?'
She says, 'No, I am from Africa !'
Puzzled, he asks her, 'Where are all the Americans?'
The African lady checks her watch and says, 'Probably at work!'
theindependenteye
07-29-2008, 10:13 AM
>>This was nominated as the best joke of the year.
...
>>Puzzled, he asks her, 'Where are all the Americans?'
The African lady checks her watch and says, 'Probably at work!'
Could you explain it?
-Conrad
Lorrie
07-29-2008, 11:04 AM
Does everyone have to take everything so seriously? Can't there be jokes?
A joke is a short story or ironic depiction of a situation communicated with the intent of being humorous (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour). These jokes will normally have a punch line that will end the sentence to make it humorous.
Jokes are typically for the entertainment of friends and onlookers. The desired response is generally laughter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laughter); when this does not happen the joke is said to have "fallen flat".
Jokes are typically for the entertainment of friends and onlookers. The desired response is generally laughter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laughter); when this does not happen the joke is said to have "fallen flat".
I do not know who nominated it as the best joke of the year, but I can guarantee that it did not come from California, it was sent to me from the mid US. Where people are not so up tight. The people there are friendly even if they don't know you. California is becoming a real stick in the mud for fun or funnies!
Which is evident every time a joke is posted, you people run so far off base with it. Geesh!
More to the point (if you must) maybe all the people he talked to were simply visiting as well. And maybe the lady with the watch probably said that because her cousin; that she was visiting, (while she was wondering around town) was at work, and that is what she based her assumption on....
OR....
Americans do work! International people may not have been here long enough to get a job yet.
OR... it is as the joke suggests The Russian was way too nice and the lady with the watch thought he should be at work instead of comming on to all the other foreigners?????
How the fk do I know.
PULEEEZ! Its just a joke. Nothing personal. Lighten up... forget it.
>>This was nominated as the best joke of the year.
...
>>Puzzled, he asks her, 'Where are all the Americans?'
The African lady checks her watch and says, 'Probably at work!'
Could you explain it?
-Conrad
MsTerry
07-29-2008, 11:58 AM
Maybe that russian guy was part of the russian mafia and those foreigners weren't real foreigners but actually working americans acting like foreigners while they trying to catch foreigners that were working for the russian mafia, so that those foreigners would be kicked out by the american foreigners who aren't real foreigners
That is a plausible possibility.
and then it would be funny
Right?
Does everyone have to take everything so seriously? Can't there be jokes?
A joke is a short story or ironic depiction of a situation communicated with the intent of being humorous (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour). These jokes will normally have a punch line that will end the sentence to make it humorous.
Jokes are typically for the entertainment of friends and onlookers. The desired response is generally laughter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laughter); when this does not happen the joke is said to have "fallen flat".
Jokes are typically for the entertainment of friends and onlookers. The desired response is generally laughter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laughter); when this does not happen the joke is said to have "fallen flat".
I do not know who nominated it as the best joke of the year, but I can guarantee that it did not come from California, it was sent to me from the mid US. Where people are not so up tight. The people there are friendly even if they don't know you. California is becoming a real stick in the mud for fun or funnies!
Which is evident every time a joke is posted, you people run so far off base with it. Geesh!
More to the point (if you must) maybe all the people he talked to were simply visiting as well. And maybe the lady with the watch probably said that because her cousin; that she was visiting, (while she was wondering around town) was at work, and that is what she based her assumption on....
OR....
Americans do work! International people may not have been here long enough to get a job yet.
OR... it is as the joke suggests The Russian was way too nice and the lady with the watch thought he should be at work instead of comming on to all the other foreigners?????
How the fk do I know.
PULEEEZ! Its just a joke. Nothing personal. Lighten up... forget it.
Lorrie
07-29-2008, 01:30 PM
Maybe that russian guy was part of the russian mafia and those foreigners weren't real foreigners but actually working americans acting like foreigners while they trying to catch foreigners that were working for the russian mafia, so that those foreigners would be kicked out by the american foreigners who aren't real foreigners
That is a plausible possibility.
and then it would be funny
Right?
Right!
Ms Terry what would you do if they took your circle that you are running around and around in away???
MsTerry
07-29-2008, 03:44 PM
I have never been able to walk in a circle,
I always followed the straight line
Right!
Ms Terry what would you do if they took your circle that you are running around and around in away???
Lorrie
07-29-2008, 04:26 PM
I have never been able to walk in a circle,
I always followed the straight line
Yeah, but you can sure talk in a circle huh!?
*You mean forward...line, right? ...Never straight! ha ha
Lenny
07-30-2008, 05:54 AM
This was nominated as the best joke of the year.!'
At a Klan rally?
Lenny
07-30-2008, 07:33 AM
More than one observer has called China a fascist country as it moves to a capitalist economy. Capitalism and fascism have always been happy bedfellows as both are anti labor.
I've heard that anti-labor bit before but I am not sure it's so. Were I a capitalist I would want my workers to buy my product, thus paying a wage to do so. The hidden notion behind your 'capitalist' definition is that all 'evil capitalists' want is money. While that may be the motivating factor, it does not die there.
Yes, communism is an ideal that will never be reached on earth except possibly among small, committed, idealistic groups of people and then usually briefly. It was to be the ultimate free society, but has never been attained.
And never will be. The fear is that as we slouch toward socialism what folks give up is also an ideal that is compatible with our nature to be free.
The labor unions in this country were built by communists. Considering the gains made by the labor movement in improving the lot of workers, this was not a bad thing. Remember that before labor unions workers had no rights at all, and the 16 hour work day was not uncommon. There were no health and safety laws, no minimum wages and no workers compensation should you become injured by your work. During the cold war when communism became the enemy, the communists were forced out of the labor unions and they were taken over by organized crime, a great improvement in the minds of some as organized crime can be bought more easily than a bunch of idealists.
While a large element of fact & truth you write above has merit, like all "organic" notions, there are other factors involved such as industrial/mechanical advancements, technical innovations (beyond the reach of the uneducated worker), unanticipated wealth for so many, resource allocation and now disposition, amongst others. The unions have all but outlived their usefulness in this day and age and are considered a determent by many. Could not another point of view be that as wealth became greater labor demanded a greater voice and share, with an eye (by the bosses) to the future that mechanization would eliminate the laborer (as it has). While the communists were seminal in formation of labor matters, their rhetoric and ideals grew out of step and away from what the potential & capability was on this side of the pond.
Mexico has no social programs, no workers compensation, no health and safety regulations, and a gross minimum wage of around $1,700 a year, etc. Since the implementation of NAFTA flooded their markets with cheap, heavily subsidized agricultural products from the US, approximately 2 million farmers have been put out of business as there are no social programs to subsidize farming in Mexico to make their products competitive with ours. There are no social programs to feed their families also, so they come to the US to work to keep their families from starving, and they bring their families with them when they can so they can partake of our social services. Had there been a strong and successful communist movement in the 1930s in Mexico as there was in the US leading to the development of strong labor unions and social programs they wouldn't be coming here to keep from starving to death. Had it not happened here, we would look a whole lot more like Mexico.
Excellent approach to Mexico's issues, however the base and launch of what makes Mexico is so radically different than what happened with US. Their approach to power is so much more like Old World Europe, that is the mentality that power emanates from above, held onto tightly and never questioned without horrible consequences. The indigenous genocide in Mexico was not as devastating nor total as here, but rather used as an example to shore up power. The several revolutions from 1860's, 1910, and 1930s can only be addressed in a long boring tome and in different medium than this. IOW, while we occupy the same space & time, the origins, conditions, results are almost beyond comparisons.
phooph
07-30-2008, 09:39 AM
I've heard that anti-labor bit before but I am not sure it's so. Were I a capitalist I would want my workers to buy my product, thus paying a wage to do so. The hidden notion behind your 'capitalist' definition is that all 'evil capitalists' want is money. While that may be the motivating factor, it does not die there.
One would think that capitialist would be wise enough to understand that if they under pay their workers they will sell fewer of their productss. It only seems logical, but in observation we can see that not all capitalists think that way. I guess they assume that the employees of more generous capitalists will be able to buy their products.
Capitalism has been defined as controlled greed. The problems seem to arise when control is lacking, in which instances capitalism tends to become both fascistic and feudalistic. When some capitalists hoard their capital and work to restrict access for others it creates a destructive situation.
And never will be. The fear is that as we slouch toward socialism what folks give up is also an ideal that is compatible with our nature to be free.
I believe the definitive book on this subject would be Joseph Shumpeter's Capitalism, Socialism, and Democracy in which he observes that as societies become more developed they become more socialistic. Schumpter coined the term "creative destruction" (https://tinyurl.com/fkzv)that is used in economic circles to describe changes wrought by progress. The entire book is available to read at questia (https://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=103482818).
While a large element of fact & truth you write above has merit, like all "organic" notions, there are other factors involved such as industrial/mechanical advancements, technical innovations (beyond the reach of the uneducated worker), unanticipated wealth for so many, resource allocation and now disposition, amongst others. The unions have all but outlived their usefulness in this day and age and are considered a determent by many. Could not another point of view be that as wealth became greater labor demanded a greater voice and share, with an eye (by the bosses) to the future that mechanization would eliminate the laborer (as it has). While the communists were seminal in formation of labor matters, their rhetoric and ideals grew out of step and away from what the potential & capability was on this side of the pond.
I concur with most of what you say but question the obsoleteness of labor unions. Without an opposing political force, pressures would be put upon politicians to roll back gains made by labor. We have already observed this as labor unions became weakened in recent decades. Management has also responded to the pressures of labor by off shoring jobs and welcoming unorganized labor in the form of undocumented workers who are less able to become organized. It would seem that the answer would be for labor unions to become as globalized as business.
I Excellent approach to Mexico's issues, however the base and launch of what makes Mexico is so radically different than what happened with US. Their approach to power is so much more like Old World Europe, that is the mentality that power emanates from above, held onto tightly and never questioned without horrible consequences. The indigenous genocide in Mexico was not as devastating nor total as here, but rather used as an example to shore up power. The several revolutions from 1860's, 1910, and 1930s can only be addressed in a long boring tome and in different medium than this. IOW, while we occupy the same space & time, the origins, conditions, results are almost beyond comparisons.
All of the former colonies of Spain exhibit the lingering effects of European feudalism. Unlike the US and Canada which had a strong dose of religious idealists in the mix, the colonies of Spain were acquired with a sharp eye toward plunder. They still operate with much of the old patronage system in place welded to more modern political realities.
There is a great irony in that as Spain has produce such a dismal legacy around the world, in Spain itself has grown the most successful answer to the problem, the Mondragon Co-operative:
https://www.justpeace.org/mondragon.htm
https://tinyurl.com/5z55h8
Lorrie
07-30-2008, 10:20 AM
At a Klan rally?
What? What are you talking about????
It had nothing to do with a clan rally!!
It was about some poor foriegner going around trying to find an American to 'Thank you, Mr. American, for letting me in this country , giving me housing, food stamps, free medical care, and free education!'
for having an America to come to...:sigh:
MsTerry
07-30-2008, 10:56 AM
'Thank you, Mr. American, for letting me in this country , giving me housing, food stamps, free medical care, and free education!'
Free housing. free medical care, and free education!
Where do I sign up?
Lenny
07-30-2008, 11:47 AM
One would think that capitialist would be wise enough to understand that if they under pay their workers they will sell fewer of their products. It only seems logical, but in observation we can see that not all capitalists think that way. I guess they assume that the employees of more generous capitalists will be able to buy their products.
That is how Henry Ford came to it when he paid them $5/hr instead of the pennies others were making. He wanted his workers to buy his cars. Others caught on and it was a "push-pull" way of capitalism. Others, like the mine owners, had a more "mercantile", British approach to labor. Marketing also came into play, but that moves to quickly for me, as "consumerism" becomes its own monster. Maybe "Enlightened Capitalists"?
Capitalism has been defined as controlled greed. The problems seem to arise when control is lacking, in which instances capitalism tends to become both fascistic and feudalistic. When some capitalists hoard their capital and work to restrict access for others it creates a destructive situation.
Here is where I need help in understanding. It is my "belief" that absent "Christian" notions, what you write above becomes the horror and ceases to be "Capitalism".
Such a system will then become totally Utilitarian and "hang the rest" will be the norm thus creating mass suffering, no? Unlike Bill Gates, after a point, what IS all that money for? The movie "THERE WILL BE BLOOD" indicated the matter I wrestle with, and in the movie, evil wins.
I believe the definitive book on this subject would be Joseph Shumpeter's Capitalism, Socialism, and Democracy in which he observes that as societies become more developed they become more socialistic. Schumpter coined the term "creative destruction" (https://tinyurl.com/fkzv)that is used in economic circles to describe changes wrought by progress. The entire book is available to read at questia (https://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=103482818).
Well written and thanks. Schumpter even approaches the "marketing" notion in 1941 language, as it had not become the behemoth it is today. The whole book is a bit daunting as I don't read books on the computer. I am THAT old, but I'll take a running jump at it. Thanks again.
>The unions have all but outlived their usefulness in this day and age and are considered a determent by many
I concur with most of what you say but question the obsolescence of labor unions. Without an opposing political force, pressures would be put upon politicians to roll back gains made by labor. We have already observed this as labor unions became weakened in recent decades. Management has also responded to the pressures of labor by off shoring jobs and welcoming unorganized labor in the form of undocumented workers who are less able to become organized. It would seem that the answer would be for labor unions to become as globalized as business.
I must concede that you are right in that management needs its "opposition" in labor negotiations or it could get to lopsided, however it is my experience that unions have the same amount of "integrity" as management with about the same regard to the grunts pulling the load. Too often I've witnessed union leaders drink their own wine that they make, getting them heady with that old aphrodisiac, power. From what you've posted before, you know it is more complicated than that in regards to "organizing labor" world wide. You are slipping into that "ideal" thinking again. Office workers/service employees can't organize here, let alone the undocumented alien workers from afar.
All of the former colonies of Spain exhibit the lingering effects of European feudalism. Unlike the US and Canada which had a strong dose of religious idealists in the mix, the colonies of Spain were acquired with a sharp eye toward plunder. They still operate with much of the old patronage system in place welded to more modern political realities.
Too true. The wrestling away of power in the Americas will not be neat, clean, or easy, but as $ makes the world go around, it will come to pass. We, in the North, have it easy in comparison, but as emergence occurs.......well, it may not be so easy for US.
There is a great irony in that as Spain has produce such a dismal legacy around the world, in Spain itself has grown the most successful answer to the problem, the Mondragon Co-operative:
https://www.justpeace.org/mondragon.htm
https://tinyurl.com/5z55h8
Thanks. Will surf there post haste.
amalia
07-30-2008, 11:52 AM
This joke deserves a place on Lou Dobbs' program. It appeals to those who wish to keep racism alive and well in the U.S. This joke sends out a powerful message, no different than the more overt racist slurs that are in our every day language.
We can do better than that on WACCO.
Amalia
Lorrie, I wonder who nominated this the joke of the year. It chills me to the bone, as its implication is that immigrants do not work, which would be a stupid and cruel message. Sometimes I don't get jokes, and may be missing something.
Kathy[/quote]
theindependenteye
07-30-2008, 03:35 PM
Dear Lorrie—
>>Does everyone have to take everything so seriously? Can't there be jokes? ... The desired response is generally laughter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laughter); when this does not happen the joke is said to have "fallen flat".
>>it was sent to me from the mid US. Where people are not so up tight. The people there are friendly even if they don't know you.
>>PULEEEZ! Its just a joke. Nothing personal. Lighten up... forget it.[/quote]
theindependenteye
07-30-2008, 04:06 PM
This website has it in for me, subjecting my posts to premature ejaculation. Try this again:
***
>>Does everyone have to take everything so seriously? Can't there be jokes?
Dear Lorrie--
I share your exasperation at the humor police, and so I feel pretty uncomfortable being one myself. But it feels disingenuous to expect that a political joke will be seen as "just a joke." As I understand it, the whole point of the joke is that there are a throng of foreigners in this country who don't identify as Americans, while all the Americans are hard at work, presumably supporting their presence. If that's not the core of the joke, I can't imagine what is -- there's nothing incongruous or meaningful if the guy's just encountering a bunch of tourists. It's probably funny if you agree that (a) we're overwhelmed with non-working aliens and (b) we're all supporting them. That's what the joke's built on, that's why it's circulating, and that's why some of us take it as more than a joke.
The recently quoted Reagan joke about communism being possible only in Heaven, where they don't need it, or in Hell, where they've already got it — well, to me that's a political joke I don't agree with, and didn't roll on the floor laughing, and I loathed Reagan, but it's funny -- it snaps right in your face. The construction works, and it's big and broad, not small and mean.
Anyway, you've surely got a right to post it, but in doing so there's no way it's not going to be questioned. Ask any stand-up comic or politician if there's any such thing as "just a joke."
>>it was sent to me from the mid US. Where people are not so up tight. The people there are friendly even if they don't know you.
Having grown up there, I would agree that people are friendly even if they don't know you. Less uptight? Hardly. Maybe uptight about entirely different things. Try telling a joke at my uncles' dinner tables about lazy-ass farmers or dumb, bigoted rednecks and see how many yucks you get.
Cheers--
Conrad
Lorrie
07-30-2008, 04:20 PM
Well I guess I am a simpleton. I took it exactly how it was put. A person going around trying to thank americans for they're country and finding nothing but other aliens or (visitors) finding all the americans at work. Was funny to me. but not for any connotations implied by the people who didn't think it was funny. Or turning it political.
I think it was blown out of proportion, but that's just me.
I can laugh at that kind of stuff with out making it a political thing. Just every day americans and tourist and aliens. We are a free country to do that in all the forms mentioned. I am allowed.
You all can just forget I said anything.... If you can.
I have moved on from it.
Oh and maybe this will help...
I am sorry if I offended anyone. That was not the intention of posting.
Better?
This website has it in for me, subjecting my posts to premature ejaculation. Try this again:
***
>>Does everyone have to take everything so seriously? Can't there be jokes?
Dear Lorrie--
I share your exasperation at the humor police, and so I feel pretty uncomfortable being one myself. But it feels disingenuous to expect that a political joke will be seen as "just a joke." As I understand it, the whole point of the joke is that there are a throng of foreigners in this country who don't identify as Americans, while all the Americans are hard at work, presumably supporting their presence. If that's not the core of the joke, I can't imagine what is -- there's nothing incongruous or meaningful if the guy's just encountering a bunch of tourists. It's probably funny if you agree that (a) we're overwhelmed with non-working aliens and (b) we're all supporting them. That's what the joke's built on, that's why it's circulating, and that's why some of us take it as more than a joke.
The recently quoted Reagan joke about communism being possible only in Heaven, where they don't need it, or in Hell, where they've already got it — well, to me that's a political joke I don't agree with, and didn't roll on the floor laughing, and I loathed Reagan, but it's funny -- it snaps right in your face. The construction works, and it's big and broad, not small and mean.
Anyway, you've surely got a right to post it, but in doing so there's no way it's not going to be questioned. Ask any stand-up comic or politician if there's any such thing as "just a joke."
>>it was sent to me from the mid US. Where people are not so up tight. The people there are friendly even if they don't know you.
Having grown up there, I would agree that people are friendly even if they don't know you. Less uptight? Hardly. Maybe uptight about entirely different things. Try telling a joke at my uncles' dinner tables about lazy-ass farmers or dumb, bigoted rednecks and see how many yucks you get.
Cheers--
Conrad
theindependenteye
07-30-2008, 04:50 PM
>>I am sorry if I offended anyone. That was not the intention of posting.
No problem, Lorrie, and nothing personal intended.
Peace & joy--
Conrad
MsTerry
07-30-2008, 08:03 PM
I am sorry if I offended anyone. That was not the intention of posting.
What the hay, Lorrie
If it had been about ILLEGAL Aliens, at least it would have been on topic! :thumbsup:
Lorrie
07-31-2008, 09:17 AM
What the hay, Lorrie
If it had been about ILLEGAL Aliens, at least it would have been on topic! :thumbsup:
You are being sarcastic. Aren't you.
kpage9
07-31-2008, 09:48 AM
Lorrie, I hope you don't take this discussion too personally. It's a good one, and I"m glad you started it. I think what we're looking at is not you or your unique point of view--a point of view I often find refreshing. It is the larger issue--how it is that some people are ok with with what others are not ok with, and how we can raise each other's awareness. (yep, mine too.)
Kathy
You are being sarcastic. Aren't you.
Lorrie
07-31-2008, 10:09 AM
Lorrie, I hope you don't take this discussion too personally. It's a good one, and I"m glad you started it. I think what we're looking at is not you or your unique point of view--a point of view I often find refreshing. It is the larger issue--how it is that some people are ok with with what others are not ok with, and how we can raise each other's awareness. (yep, mine too.)
Kathy
Well I did. But like I said I am over it.
I do have a unique point of view... don't I?
I am glad I could refresh you with it!:thumbsup:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, larger issue...
Waccobb land is definately on top of the "larger issue"
I tell you that!
Lenny
07-31-2008, 12:55 PM
Well I guess I am a simpleton. I took it exactly how it was put. A person going around trying to thank americans for they're country and finding nothing but other aliens or (visitors) finding all the americans at work. Was funny to me. but not for any connotations implied by the people who didn't think it was funny. Or turning it political.
I think it was blown out of proportion, but that's just me.
I can laugh at that kind of stuff with out making it a political thing. Just every day americans and tourist and aliens. We are a free country to do that in all the forms mentioned. I am allowed.
You all can just forget I said anything.... If you can.
I have moved on from it.
Oh and maybe this will help...
I am sorry if I offended anyone. That was not the intention of posting.
Better?
It's all good with me. And so are you.
But will have to go to the Midwest some time for the comedy bits. I know I'd be strung up in Texas for sure, but now? Nebraska? Wisconsin? Yikes!
Lions & tigers & bears, Oh My!
MsTerry
07-31-2008, 05:53 PM
Only about the 'hay' part :heart:
You are being sarcastic. Aren't you.
thewholetruth
08-01-2008, 10:00 PM
This website has it in for me, subjecting my posts to premature ejaculation. Try this again:
***
>>Does everyone have to take everything so seriously? Can't there be jokes?
Dear Lorrie--
I share your exasperation at the humor police, and so I feel pretty uncomfortable being one myself. But it feels disingenuous to expect that a political joke will be seen as "just a joke." As I understand it, the whole point of the joke is that there are a throng of foreigners in this country who don't identify as Americans, while all the Americans are hard at work, presumably supporting their presence.
That's exactly the gist of it, Conrad, and it's true. The best humor is that which points to the truth about human behavior, and that joke does. WE are supporting the medical services for these people who are hiding and working illegally under the table. WE are providing the food stamps and the GA for the women who pretend to be desititute while their illegal husbands go work under the table for cash. WE are supporting illegal aliens, Conrad. Irony is the point of some great humor. It's ironic that you would have a problem with someone pointing out the truth, but that you don't seem to have a problem with the truth itself. It's OUTRAGEOUS that we support these people and you don't complain. It's OUTRAGEOUS that it continues, even when we all know what's going on. That's what makes the joke so funny. It reveals what fools people are.
If that's not the core of the joke, I can't imagine what is -- there's nothing incongruous or meaningful if the guy's just encountering a bunch of tourists. It's probably funny if you agree that (a) we're overwhelmed with non-working aliens and (b) we're all supporting them. That's what the joke's built on, that's why it's circulating, and that's why some of us take it as more than a joke.
The recently quoted Reagan joke about communism being possible only in Heaven, where they don't need it, or in Hell, where they've already got it — well, to me that's a political joke I don't agree with, and didn't roll on the floor laughing, and I loathed Reagan, but it's funny -- it snaps right in your face. The construction works, and it's big and broad, not small and mean.
Anyway, you've surely got a right to post it, but in doing so there's no way it's not going to be questioned. Ask any stand-up comic or politician if there's any such thing as "just a joke."
>>it was sent to me from the mid US. Where people are not so up tight. The people there are friendly even if they don't know you.
Having grown up there, I would agree that people are friendly even if they don't know you. Less uptight? Hardly. Maybe uptight about entirely different things. Try telling a joke at my uncles' dinner tables about lazy-ass farmers or dumb, bigoted rednecks and see how many yucks you get.
Cheers--
Conrad
Despite your denial, people in the mid US are not as uptight as Californians. Lorrie's right about that. Nor are they as codependent of social sickness and bigotry as Californians are.
thewholetruth
08-01-2008, 10:02 PM
This joke deserves a place on Lou Dobbs' program. It appeals to those who wish to keep racism alive and well in the U.S. This joke sends out a powerful message, no different than the more overt racist slurs that are in our every day language.
We can do better than that on WACCO.
Amalia
Lorrie, I wonder who nominated this the joke of the year. It chills me to the bone, as its implication is that immigrants do not work, which would be a stupid and cruel message. Sometimes I don't get jokes, and may be missing something.
Kathy
It's the truth, Kathy. Immigrants get money just for being here. Americans do not.
thewholetruth
08-01-2008, 10:20 PM
Lorrie, I hope you don't take this discussion too personally. It's a good one, and I"m glad you started it. I think what we're looking at is not you or your unique point of view--a point of view I often find refreshing. It is the larger issue--how it is that some people are ok with with what others are not ok with, and how we can raise each other's awareness. (yep, mine too.)
Kathy
I find it interesting that you and others will speak up against even an iNsInUaTiOn about aliens, yet none of you say a freaking word when the inimitable Ms. Terry goes about her Christian bashing here. I would hope that we can "raise each other's awareness" too, Kathy, but the truth is that it's not about not being aware. It's about being bigotted and it's about political correctness. I mean, sure, let's criticize a woman who posts a joke and tell her you're trying to raise her conscience, but then let's be sure to say nothing when someone attacks a Christian.
I just shake my head at this kind of thinking. This kind of thinking is the problem. It's not the joke. It's the thinking that goes on in someone's head who quietly supports biggotry against Christian citizens but goes out of their way to correct someone who makes a joke about noncitizens.
kpage9
08-01-2008, 11:33 PM
Lord a'mighty, Don. It's raining gobstoppers in your neck of the woods. So many odd and unwarranted assumptions, here and in your previous post.
Can you show the stats behind your statement about how immigrants get free money just for being here, and "Americans" don't?
Are immigrants and Americans mutually exclusive categories?
Do you think if a person only speaks up in protest about one thing it means they're condoning everything else?
Does my comment about the joke translate to a criticism of Lorrie herself?
and that's only the beginning....but I do wish you a good night's sleep if possible.
and i wish you would have the integrity to reveal your identity.
I find it interesting that you and others will speak up against even an iNsInUaTiOn about aliens, yet none of you say a freaking word when the inimitable Ms. Terry goes about her Christian bashing here. I would hope that we can "raise each other's awareness" too, Kathy, but the truth is that it's not about not being aware. It's about being bigotted and it's about political correctness. I mean, sure, let's criticize a woman who posts a joke and tell her you're trying to raise her conscience, but then let's be sure to say nothing when someone attacks a Christian.
I just shake my head at this kind of thinking. This kind of thinking is the problem. It's not the joke. It's the thinking that goes on in someone's head who quietly supports biggotry against Christian citizens but goes out of their way to correct someone who makes a joke about noncitizens.
thewholetruth
08-02-2008, 08:36 AM
Lord a'mighty, Don. It's raining gobstoppers in your neck of the woods. So many odd and unwarranted assumptions, here and in your previous post.
I look forward to you pointing them out for me, Kathy.
Can you show the stats behind your statement about how immigrants get free money just for being here, and "Americans" don't?
Surely you've been in this country long enough to know that our government more freely gives money to immigrants to start businesses than they do to Americans. Hence, all of the 7-11s and mini-marts and dry cleaners now owned by folks who barely speak our language. Did you miss that, Kathy? Perhaps it hasn't happened in your neighborhood yet?
Are immigrants and Americans mutually exclusive categories?
Not exactly "mutually exclusive", but in one sense they are. Once an immigrant becomes a citizen, they become "Americans". Until that time, they remain "immigrants" who associate themselves with their citizenship of another country. While they will always be "immigrants", after their conversion to citizenship they are commonly proud to identify themselves as "Americans" (historically speaking, anyway). Part of the meltdown in our nation's fabric is due to the huge influx (estimated at 12-13 million people) of illegal aliens, who are not merely "immigrants", but are more precisely "illegal immigrants", who have no interest in America other than how they can stay hidden, steal/obtain money illegally, send it home and eventually return to their homeland or remain underground here. Becoming an "American citizen" is no longer the goal with that huge group of illegal immigrants, nor is learning our language, like it was with legal immigrants in past generation. But Generation L (L stands for Losers), as I have come to identify our generation (some call us "Baby Boomers") is collectively so sick mentally, socially, spiritually, phyically (drug/alcohol dependent) and relationally, that Gen L'ers practice the insane codependence and misplaced faith that has made us (I use the term "us" loosely - some have actually recovered from the 60s/70s/80s "Lookin' out for number 1/If it feels good do it" mentality) collectively so off track for so long. Making people who suffer from relational problems, personal problems, mental problems, emotional problems, sexual problems and thus spiritual problems the "darlings" of the generation is both bizarre and irrational. Those folks should be encouraged to get help, but instead Gen L'ers cluster around them trying to convince them that they are "normal", when they describe themselves as "freaks and weirdos". Same can be said about the social sickness which reveals itself when Gen L'ers commonly and seemingly instinctively attack Christians and Christian values, yet do everything they can do to protect criminals (illegal aliens) rather than insisting - like we normal people insist - that those illegal immigrants follow the same legal process that immigrants have followed in the generations prior to ours. Dang! You had to get me started, didn't you. (Rhetorical question, really)
Do you think if a person only speaks up in protest about one thing it means they're condoning everything else?
Why on Earth would you ask me this? Please clarify. I have no idea what you're referring to or why you would ask me this.
Does my comment about the joke translate to a criticism of Lorrie herself?
Your comment about the joke criticized Lorrie's judgement and discernment, as well as implied that there is something wrong with Lorrie's thinking.
and that's only the beginning....but I do wish you a good night's sleep if possible.
Good morning, Kathy!
and i wish you would have the integrity to reveal your identity.
Oh, I have integrity, Kathy. Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the definition of the word, as you're misusing it here in your effort to discredit me personally. Only a fool would wear a 49's jersey into the Raider's locker room, Kathy. Also, why would knowing who I am be important to you? I have to wonder why knowing who I am would have anything to do with the comments that I make here. Try this: focus on my comments and don't worry about me personally. If you find my thoughts too much of a challenge then don't reply to my posts. My experience has been that it doesn't matter who people are when posting on a message board like this. We're here to exchange thoughts and opinions, not to seek out individuals in our community who disagree with us. Wanting to know who a person is, really, is what the mind does when we want to figure out a way to attack someone on a personal level. That doesn't seem very nice to me, Kathy. Does that seem like a nice thing to do, IYO? Principles before personalities seems to facilitate better communication, IMO, in a forum like this.
theindependenteye
08-02-2008, 11:14 AM
>>The best humor is that which points to the truth about human behavior,...
Agreed, totally.
>>and that joke does. WE are supporting the medical services for these people...
Those statements are regarded as incontrovertible Truth by some, and those people will laugh at the joke. They're regarded as absurd exaggeration by others, and those people won't. We differ, as eye witnesses often do, on our descriptions of the Truth.
>>It's ironic that you would have a problem with someone pointing out the truth, but that you don't seem to have a problem with the truth itself.
See above.
>>Despite your denial, people in the mid US are not as uptight as Californians. Lorrie's right about that. Nor are they as codependent of social sickness and bigotry as Californians are.
Sonoma County is California, and Orange County is California. Likewise, there are many Midwests. The one I grew up in (Southwestern Iowa and briefly South Dakota) and the one I toured extensively in for about 10 years (Ohio to Wyoming, Minnesota to Texas, had many beautiful people, much hospitality, much awareness, much creativity, side by side with what I would regard as great narrowness & conformity, and a bigotry as deep as anything I've seen in the Deep South. The question depends on the definition of "uptight" and on ones personal experience.
With regard to California, I won't resort to the phrases perpetually flung at leftists by right-wingers — "Love it or leave it" — "If you don't like it here go back where you came from" — because many, many different life circumstances land a person where he winds up living, and because change does happen only when somebody right on the spot stands up and says it ought to. And there's lotsa stuff around here that I think's ripe for satire, and in fact I've written some. So, suffice it to say that calling people co-dependent, bigoted, or sick isn't going to win you many friends — or promote change — whether it's in Des Moines, Selma, or Sebastopol.
-Conrad
thewholetruth
08-02-2008, 02:23 PM
>>The best humor is that which points to the truth about human behavior, and that joke does. WE are supporting the medical services for these people...
Those statements are regarded as incontrovertible Truth by some, and those people will laugh at the joke. They're regarded as absurd exaggeration by others, and those people won't. We differ, as eye witnesses often do, on our descriptions of the Truth.
I agree with you there. It's called "perspective", and that varies from person to person. The truth about a given situation or circumstance, however, doesn't change. It is what it is, despite what we might perceive it to be. While that seems to create a huge opportunity for confusion, I don't see it that way. Those who value the truth will seek it and cling to it, leaving far less opportunity for the author of confusion to be at work. What we're experiencing in California today has everything to do with lazy, self-centered individuals who are far more interested in their own agendas and opinions than they are in the truth. Without any real interest in what is true, they've become so deluded as to imagine that their opinion or perspective is "their truth", so blatantly egomaniacal I can't believe anyone even admits they actually think that. The truth is what it is. True seekers of the truth find it. Lazy self-centered people make it up as they go along, seemingly oblivious that they're living in a dream world, ecstatic about their creation (their "truth") while Life literally passes them by. The rub begins when they ask the rest of us to cosign their hallucination. I won't do it.
>>It's ironic that you would have a problem with someone pointing out the truth, but that you don't seem to have a problem with the truth itself.
See above.
You ignored my point completely. I wasn't referring to our perspective. Let's not confuse perspective with the truth, sir. You don't have a problem with the ridiculousness of our codepending aliens both legal and illegal, but you have a problem with someone commenting (the joke) on that problem. That's frightening to me, to a degree. You're an intelligent man. Why would you have the courage to come against someone making social commentary regarding injustice, but not have the courage to be shouting out your outrage about the injustice itself? I find that all too common.
>>Despite your denial, people in the mid US are not as uptight as Californians. Lorrie's right about that. Nor are they as codependent of social sickness and bigotry as Californians are.
Sonoma County is California, and Orange County is California. Likewise, there are many Midwests. The one I grew up in (Southwestern Iowa and briefly South Dakota) and the one I toured extensively in for about 10 years (Ohio to Wyoming, Minnesota to Texas, had many beautiful people, much hospitality, much awareness, much creativity, side by side with what I would regard as great narrowness & conformity, and a bigotry as deep as anything I've seen in the Deep South. The question depends on the definition of "uptight" and on ones personal experience.
With regard to California, I won't resort to the phrases perpetually flung at leftists by right-wingers — "Love it or leave it" — "If you don't like it here go back where you came from" — because many, many different life circumstances land a person where he winds up living, and because change does happen only when somebody right on the spot stands up and says it ought to. And there's lotsa stuff around here that I think's ripe for satire, and in fact I've written some. So, suffice it to say that calling people co-dependent, bigoted, or sick isn't going to win you many friends — or promote change — whether it's in Des Moines, Selma, or Sebastopol.
-Conrad
Then again, if winning friends was my goal, I'd be coming alongside others with "my truth", applauding "their truth", ignorning The Truth and codepending mental/emotional/spiritual sickness and calling it "normal" while I supported harboring criminals who are contributing in a huge way to bankrupting our nation. Winning friends isn't high on my list, Conrad. Finding like-minded individuals who put the truth above their selfish interests is high on my list. They will become friends. Seeking the truth in all it's Glory is very high on my list, as well. Friends come and friends go, as people are nomadic. The Truth is forever...:thumbsup:
theindependenteye
08-03-2008, 09:42 PM
>> Those who value the truth will seek it and cling to it, leaving far less opportunity for the author of confusion to be at work. What we're experiencing in California today has everything to do with lazy, self-centered individuals who are far more interested in their own agendas and opinions than they are in the truth. Without any real interest in what is true, they've become so deluded as to imagine that their opinion or perspective is "their truth", so blatantly egomaniacal I can't believe anyone even admits they actually think that. The truth is what it is. True seekers of the truth find it. Lazy self-centered people make it up as they go along, seemingly oblivious that they're living in a dream world, ecstatic about their creation (their "truth") while Life literally passes them by. The rub begins when they ask the rest of us to cosign their hallucination. I won't do it.
Obviously not. But I gather from your words that if I don’t agree with your stated truth, then I’m simply clinging to my “perspective,” making it up as I go along, oblivious to living in a dream world, etc. As one who disagrees with you on this point, and on many others, I nevertheless don’t see myself as (a) lazy, (b) self-centered, (c) disinterested in the truth, (d) egomaniacal, (e) oblivious to reality, (f) passed by by Life, or (g) hallucinatory.
In my view, I work very hard, think I do some good in the world, and am at least enough in touch with reality to have a fantastically good credit rating. My fatal flaw seems to be that I disagree with you in your view of the truth.
>>You don't have a problem with the ridiculousness of our codepending aliens both legal and illegal, but you have a problem with someone commenting (the joke) on that problem.
That’s presuming I agree with your statements about “co-depending aliens.” But I don't. If I did, I’d be damned mad at those teeming masses of nogoodniks. I’m quite willing to believe that there are characters out there who are ripping us off -- illegal aliens, native-born sonsabitches, corporate executives, etc. etc. -- and that you could probably come up with more individual anecdotes than Reagan was able to when he was making jokes about “welfare queens.” I don’t have any illusions about the nobility and virtue of the underclass. But as a broad generalization, no, I don’t buy it.
As for having “a problem with someone commenting on it”, no, I don’t have a problem with that. My comment had to do with the woman wondering why people jumped on it when it was just a joke. You seem to agree with me that it was more than “just a joke” – it was a political statement, as jokes often are, depending for its humor on your believing its premise. But hey, let’s have more of’em.
>>That's frightening to me, to a degree.
Don, lots of things are frightening to me too. They’re very different, many of’em at least, than the things that are frightening to you. A huge percentage of people agree that this country is heading the wrong direction, but we disagree pretty profoundly on which is the right direction, or who’s got his hands on the map. I guess that's the problem with democracy: we have to vote on which of us is the bigger fool. Which at least is better than having a shoot-out about it.
>> Winning friends isn't high on my list, Conrad. … Seeking the truth in all its Glory is very high on my list, as well.
“Winning friends” was the wrong phrase. I guess I meant convincing anybody who disagrees with you.
I’m not sure what you mean by “seeking the truth.” I can’t recall a single post of yours I’ve read where you seem to be “seeking.” To me, you seem to be absolutely unshakeable in every one of your statements, whether religious or political or moral, so what’s the search?
Wouldn’t a better term be “witnessing”? That is, simply standing up to state what you believe. That’s a worthy thing, and I’d never call you a fool for doing that.