The shocking comment Barack Obama does not want you to hear!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDaO7N-JujU&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDaO7N-JujU&feature=related)
Barack Obama shocks the world!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pO1dIKgfPw&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pO1dIKgfPw&feature=related)
Barack Obama's BIZARRE speech in Georgia - OMG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo5h8RpP0EM&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo5h8RpP0EM&feature=related)
Obama stumbles in MSNBC Debate on Israel and Islam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnZJePN40fw&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnZJePN40fw&feature=related)
An Obama-Rezko primer
https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080310/ap_on_el_pr/obama_rezko_q_a (https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080310/ap_on_el_pr/obama_rezko_q_a)
Tony Rezko
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoin_Rezko (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoin_Rezko)
Antoin "Tony" Rezko (born 1955 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955) in Aleppo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo), Syria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria)) is an American (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_America) restaurateur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restaurant) and real estate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_estate) developer in Chicago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago), Illinois (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois). Rezko is currently facing federal charges of attempted extortion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion), money laundering (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering), and fraud (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud).
Braggi
03-17-2008, 01:43 PM
So Jeff, what's your opinion?
Do you have one?
-Jeff
voxregalis
03-17-2008, 03:15 PM
So Jeff, what's your opinion?
Do you have one?
-Jeff
of course I have an opinion
do you?
Lenny
03-18-2008, 08:15 AM
The race card, pulled in some of the videos below is beneath contempt. The posting of these shows how a low and scurrilous folks will go to try and make a point not worth considering.
Scum!
Although I did hear Obama's speech this morning ON race. It is brilliant! He is brilliant. And I ain't even voting for him.....maybe!:2cents:
The shocking comment Barack Obama does not want you to hear!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDaO7N-JujU&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDaO7N-JujU&feature=related)
Barack Obama shocks the world!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pO1dIKgfPw&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pO1dIKgfPw&feature=related)
Barack Obama's BIZARRE speech in Georgia - OMG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo5h8RpP0EM&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo5h8RpP0EM&feature=related)
Obama stumbles in MSNBC Debate on Israel and Islam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnZJePN40fw&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnZJePN40fw&feature=related)
An Obama-Rezko primer
https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080310/ap_on_el_pr/obama_rezko_q_a (https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080310/ap_on_el_pr/obama_rezko_q_a)
Tony Rezko
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoin_Rezko (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoin_Rezko)
Antoin "Tony" Rezko (born 1955 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955) in Aleppo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo), Syria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria)) is an American (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_America) restaurateur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restaurant) and real estate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_estate) developer in Chicago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago), Illinois (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois). Rezko is currently facing federal charges of attempted extortion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion), money laundering (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering), and fraud (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud).
rewrite
03-18-2008, 10:14 AM
When I went to this utube site I saw that other video viewing choices about Obama were equally and alarmingly biased.
The "shocking comment" video is a slick professional presentation designed to elicit fear in whites. Especially telling is the prolonged image of the angry expression of Obama's campaign manager (an African American man).
This video is a low-down, fear-mongering attempt to smear Barack Obama.
I am a 66 yr. old whitish woman. I am voting for Obama with pride and hope.
You, go back under a rock.
YF
The shocking comment Barack Obama does not want you to hear!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDaO7N-JujU&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDaO7N-JujU&feature=related)
Barack Obama shocks the world!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pO1dIKgfPw&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pO1dIKgfPw&feature=related)
Barack Obama's BIZARRE speech in Georgia - OMG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo5h8RpP0EM&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo5h8RpP0EM&feature=related)
Obama stumbles in MSNBC Debate on Israel and Islam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnZJePN40fw&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnZJePN40fw&feature=related)
An Obama-Rezko primer
https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080310/ap_on_el_pr/obama_rezko_q_a (https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080310/ap_on_el_pr/obama_rezko_q_a)
Tony Rezko
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoin_Rezko (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoin_Rezko)
Antoin "Tony" Rezko (born 1955 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955) in Aleppo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo), Syria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria)) is an American (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_America) restaurateur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restaurant) and real estate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_estate) developer in Chicago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago), Illinois (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois). Rezko is currently facing federal charges of attempted extortion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion), money laundering (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering), and fraud (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud).
scorpiomoon
03-18-2008, 12:14 PM
I am a little confused about these videos actually. I wish I knew who the posting person was who the voice is in the background. AND sex education in kindergarden may only be something about say, not allowing adults to touch you inappropriately or something. That would be "age appropriate," right??? These videos are a little bogus trampling on the guy. I do not feel anything but a little malicious creepy white guy puppet using ignorance and fear instead of reason to knock Obama out. At least he responds gracefully under pressure and seems intelligent rational and honest as he speaks. I do not get the same feeling from Hillary or John McCain. I do think Obama should use the political machine where he can. If he can't do that he will not win. It appears that we may get a republican by default as Hill and Barack are being led off issue. This is not only sad but the consequences will be brutal for Iraqi citizens as well as for us here, and for anyone who has been subjected to the blunt end of our wrong minded foreign policies around the world.
voxregalis
03-20-2008, 09:39 AM
When I went to this utube site I saw that other video viewing choices about Obama were equally and alarmingly biased.
The "shocking comment" video is a slick professional presentation designed to elicit fear in whites. Especially telling is the prolonged image of the angry expression of Obama's campaign manager (an African American man).
This video is a low-down, fear-mongering attempt to smear Barack Obama.
I am a 66 yr. old whitish woman. I am voting for Obama with pride and hope.
You, go back under a rock.
:hmmm:Whoa , Nellie, wait a minute....under a rock?
What is the matter with your old 66 year old self?
You like having a man for President, whos SPIRITUAL ADVISOR speaks the way the nut-case preacher he follows does?
I was in a church and left when I found out the leaders were "off".
I suggest you get a check up for a possible brain tumor:idea:
voxregalis
03-20-2008, 10:31 AM
The race card, pulled in some of the videos below is beneath contempt. The posting of these shows how a low and scurrilous folks will go to try and make a point not worth considering.
Scum!
:hmmm:who , exactly is scum?
Are you calling me names for posting these videos?
I think we should be aware of the kind of man who is going to be a potential presidential candidate.
His spiritual "advisor" is a man filled with racial hatred and divisive speech.
A conspiracy theorist, who has labeled the "white man" as evil.
The thought of this man leading the country....being ADVISED by the likes of his prejudiced pastor is HORRIFYING!! jb
Although I did hear Obama's speech this morning ON race. It is brilliant! He is brilliant. And I ain't even voting for him.....maybe!:2cents:
voxregalis
03-20-2008, 01:14 PM
[quote=tacitus;52658]With racial sentiments swirling in the 2008 campaign -- notably, Geraldine Ferraro's claim that Barack Obama is not much more than an affirmative action case and the controversy over his former pastor's over-the-top remarks -- Senator Obama on Tuesday morning responded to these recent fusses with a speech unlike any delivered by a major political figure in modern American history. While explaining -- not excusing -- Reverend Jeremiah Wright's remarks (which Obama had already criticized), he called on all Americans to recognize that even though the United States has experienced progress on the racial reconciliation front in recent decades (Exhibit A: Barack Obama), racial anger exists among both whites and blacks, and he said that this anger and its causes must be fully acknowledged before further progress can be achieved. Obama did this without displaying a trace of anger himself.
anger is not always "displayed"...sometimes it is masked in kindness and gentleness, until , true to its manipulative, slick, sly, deceptive behavior, it is ready to strike....beware
Clearly many of us are passionate about the Obama/Clinton debate. What seems to us to be most important is -- who will make the best leader to clean up the GWB mess nationally and internationally.
While Barack is amazingly inspiring and awesome, and we love him ---do we really know what he is capable of doing?
One of the pitfalls in being overly optimistic and naive about how the world works is that we can end up with much worse than centrist. Ralph Nadar's naive voters pushed Bush over the edge in Florida. People who voted in the election for candidates who had no choice helped to ensure Bush's undeserved and unfortunate victory.
Now we are at a crossroads. What is the top priority in our country right now? Is it the race issue? Or is it cleaning up the Republican's worldwide mess and fixing our nation.
We long for the day when Obama can flourish - his message is something we all thirst for. BUT WORDS ARE NOT DEEDS.
He is new, untried, unproven. We simply cannot afford the risk, especially now that we're getting to know more about him, and find out he's part of a fiery anti-government ministry, that he has had unsavory real estate transactions with a convicted criminal.
Hillary is far from perfect, but she has stood the test of time. SHe has been through the fire, and emerged victorious. Let's vote for someone who has the best chance of bringing our country together.
And while we love Obama, right now it's just not his time. What is bound to happen, and is already occurring, is that a great deal of focus will shift to the race issues. While this is clearly important for our internal healing of the country, right now there are enormous challenges on the international scene and disastrous economic conditions at home that have to potential to destroy our country if not addressed with substance.
Hillary has proved her abilities to do the nuts and bolts, nitty gritty hard work for improving the lot of the citizens of New York, and she can do this for the US. If you're undecided, consider carefully who has the best chances of beating McCain, and leading us back to greater sanity nationally. We think
it's Hil-Time.
Blessings K-Lee
The shocking comment Barack Obama does not want you to hear!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDaO7N-JujU&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDaO7N-JujU&feature=related)
Barack Obama shocks the world!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pO1dIKgfPw&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pO1dIKgfPw&feature=related)
Barack Obama's BIZARRE speech in Georgia - OMG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo5h8RpP0EM&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo5h8RpP0EM&feature=related)
Obama stumbles in MSNBC Debate on Israel and Islam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnZJePN40fw&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnZJePN40fw&feature=related)
An Obama-Rezko primer
https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080310/ap_on_el_pr/obama_rezko_q_a (https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080310/ap_on_el_pr/obama_rezko_q_a)
Tony Rezko
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoin_Rezko (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoin_Rezko)
Antoin "Tony" Rezko (born 1955 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955) in Aleppo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo), Syria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria)) is an American (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_America) restaurateur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restaurant) and real estate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_estate) developer in Chicago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago), Illinois (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois). Rezko is currently facing federal charges of attempted extortion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion), money laundering (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering), and fraud (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud).
Braggi
03-21-2008, 10:29 AM
...
Hillary has proved her abilities to do the nuts and bolts, nitty gritty hard work for improving the lot of the citizens of New York, and she can do this for the US....
Remember all the white collar criminals Bill pardoned on his way out? You think that won't be all over McCain's hit pieces? Yup, Hillary has experience all right. It's mostly strikes against her. I don't think she can win.
...If you're undecided, consider carefully who has the best chances of beating McCain, and leading us back to greater sanity nationally. ...
I have little hope Hillary can beat McCain. Only Obama can motivate the youth and minority votes to defeat the Republicans. He's proved it big time.
Folks, this is too important to trust with someone who is so in the pockets if big business. Hillary is status quo. If you like corporatism, vote Hillary. Actually, it won't matter because if Hillary is the candidate, McCain will win.
If McCain wins, we're going to lose the Supreme Court to rampant neocon abuses for the next 40 years. These guys aren't playing around. It will be like Bush on steroids. Our only hope of beating them is Obama.
The single most important reason for Obama to win, over and above the Supreme Court, is our image abroad. Hillary is more of the same and McCain is worse. Let's show the rest of the world that the US can elect a leader that actually wants to lead us out of the morass we're currently in. Remember that it was Bill (and Hillary) that gave us NAFTA and GATT, the most dangerous and destructive documents in the history of the Earth.
Push the super delegates to vote for Obama. It's our only hope if we don't want to move even further into militarism and corporatism.
-Jeff
Braggi
03-21-2008, 11:28 AM
"Has everyone forgotten the scandal when she and Bill got caught putting all the furniture and fixtures from the White House ..."
I removed this comment from my previous post when I was challenged on its veracity. I do remember hearing a great deal about it at the time, but here's the only "real" reference I was able to find on it:
"When the Clintons left the White House, they were accused of taking furniture that belonged not to them, but to the White House. It was explained that the movers inadvertently packed the wrong items. Most of the articles were quietly returned. <sup id="_ref-54" class="reference">[55]" (https://www.conservapedia.com/Hillary_Clinton#_note-54)</sup>
Without a doubt it will be brought up by right wing talk show hosts anyway, but it's a minor point in my argument for Obama. The fact that it could cost her the election even if false is not minor.
BTW, has anyone checked out McCain's "spiritual advisers?"
-Jeff
voxregalis
03-21-2008, 12:07 PM
Braggi;52738"Has everyone forgotten the scandal when she and Bill got caught putting all the furniture and fixtures from the White House ..."
I removed this comment from my previous post when I was challenged on its veracity. I do remember hearing a great deal about it at the time, but here's the only "real" reference I was able to find on it:
"When the Clintons left the White House, they were accused of taking furniture that belonged not to them, but to the White House. It was explained that the movers inadvertently packed the wrong items. Most of the articles were quietly returned.
Without a doubt it will be brought up by right wing talk show hosts anyway, but it's a minor point in my argument for Obama. The fact that it could cost her the election even if false is not minor.
BTW, has anyone checked out McCain's "spiritual advisers?"
-Jeff
as a matter of fact, yes, and that is why I posted the "you Decide Election 2008" Post.....check it out :film: https://www.waccobb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33534 (https://www.waccobb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33534)
But now I am not sure.....watch this................
McCain's spiritual advisors
Rod Parsley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFr59VC50tY
I hate to admit it, myself, but this guy at least talks about defending Whites And blacks....he is not a racist......try again, Braggi
Braggi
03-21-2008, 01:11 PM
I hate to admit it, myself, but this guy at least talks about defending Whites And blacks....he is not a racist......try again, Braggi
From Wikipedia:
Call for war on Islam
Mr. Parsley has called upon Christians to wage a "war" against the "false religion" of Islam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) with the aim of destroying it. He urges his readers to realize that a confrontation between Christianity and Islam is unavoidable: "We find now we have no choice. The time has come." And he has bad news: "We may already be losing the battle. As I scan the world, I find that Islam is responsible for more pain, more bloodshed, and more devastation than nearly any other force on earth at this moment." He also claims that Christopher Columbus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus) shared the same goal: "It was to defeat Islam, among other dreams, that Christopher Columbus sailed to the New World in 1492…Columbus dreamed of defeating the armies of Islam with the armies of Europe made mighty by the wealth of the New World. It was this dream that, in part, began America." Parsley claims that Islam is an "anti-Christ religion" predicated on "deception." The Muslim prophet Muhammad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad), he writes, "received revelations from demons and not from the true God." <sup id="_ref-2" class="reference">[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley#_note-2)</sup>
[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rod_Parsley&action=edit§ion=6)] Criticism of Parsley
Parsley is identified as a prominent player in the dominionist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism) movement by both TheocracyWatch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TheocracyWatch) <sup id="_ref-Patriot_Pastors_0" class="reference">[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley#_note-Patriot_Pastors)</sup> and commentator Bill Moyers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Moyers) <sup id="_ref-3" class="reference">[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley#_note-3)</sup>
Some have also criticised Parsley for his recent book, Silent No More (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Silent_No_More&action=edit&redlink=1) because of the book's attacks against Islam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) and the view that the U.S. Constitution provides for a separation of church and state (among other popular social issues), and for his support of faith healing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing). Parsley has identified Islam as an enemy of the United States and Christianity.
Parsley was also criticized by a group of 31 Columbus, Ohio, area pastors for possibly violating federal tax laws. It was alleged that he violated the tax-exempt status of his church by supporting various political causes, and that he was misusing the finances of his church for personal gain. <sup id="_ref-4" class="reference">[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley#_note-4)</sup><sup id="_ref-5" class="reference">[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley#_note-5)</sup>
Author Chris Hedges' 2006 book American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Fascists:_The_Christian_Right_and_the_War_on_America) notes the openly militaristic metaphors Parsley has used, particularly in describing his opponents:
The secular media never likes it when I say this, so let me say it twice. Man your battle stations! Ready your weapons! They say this rhetoric is so inciting. I came to incite a riot. ... Man your battle stations. Ready your weapons. Lock and load--for the thirty, forty liberal pastors who filed against our ministry with the Internal Revenue Service. ... Let the struggle begin. Let it begin in your heart today with a shout unto him who has called us to war--not only that, he has empowered you and I to win. —Rod Parsley<sup id="_ref-Hedges_0" class="reference">[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley#_note-Hedges)</sup>
Parsley has also been criticised by the Progress Ohio (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Progress_Ohio&action=edit&redlink=1) for his questionable fundraising tactics to gain support for Parsley's campaign against ratifying hate crime legislation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard_Act) within the United States. <sup id="_ref-6" class="reference">[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley#_note-6)</sup><sup id="_ref-7" class="reference">[10]" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley#_note-7)</sup>
Sounds like a madman to me. I wonder how McCain feels about him and his rantings? They both like eternal war, or so it sounds. That's what Bush promised us. Bush is certainly delivering. Can you imagine McCain? Let's see ... bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran ...
I say let's elect a president that has the fewest ties to the military industrial political complex. That would be Obama.
-Jeff
voxregalis
03-21-2008, 02:34 PM
[quote=Braggi;52749]From Wikipedia:
Call for war on Islam
Mr. Parsley has called upon Christians to wage a "war" against the "false religion" of Islam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) with the aim of destroying it. He urges his readers to realize that a confrontation between Christianity and Islam is unavoidable: "We find now we have no choice. The time has come." And he has bad news: "We may already be losing the battle. As I scan the world, I find that Islam is responsible for more pain, more bloodshed, and more devastation than nearly any other force on earth at this moment." He also claims that Christopher Columbus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus) shared the same goal: "It was to defeat Islam, among other dreams, that Christopher Columbus sailed to the New World in 1492…Columbus dreamed of defeating the armies of Islam with the armies of Europe made mighty by the wealth of the New World. It was this dream that, in part, began America." Parsley claims that Islam is an "anti-Christ religion" predicated on "deception." The Muslim prophet Muhammad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad), he writes, "received revelations from demons and not from the true God." <SUP class=reference id=_ref-2>[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley#_note-2)</SUP>
[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rod_Parsley&action=edit§ion=6)] Criticism of Parsley
Parsley is identified as a prominent player in the dominionist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism) movement by both TheocracyWatch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TheocracyWatch) <SUP class=reference id=_ref-Patriot_Pastors_0>[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley#_note-Patriot_Pastors)</SUP> and commentator Bill Moyers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Moyers) <SUP class=reference id=_ref-3>[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley#_note-3)</SUP>
Some have also criticised Parsley for his recent book, Silent No More (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Silent_No_More&action=edit&redlink=1) because of the book's attacks against Islam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) and the view that the U.S. Constitution provides for a separation of church and state (among other popular social issues), and for his support of faith healing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing). Parsley has identified Islam as an enemy of the United States and Christianity.
Parsley was also criticized by a group of 31 Columbus, Ohio, area pastors for possibly violating federal tax laws. It was alleged that he violated the tax-exempt status of his church by supporting various political causes, and that he was misusing the finances of his church for personal gain. <SUP class=reference id=_ref-4>[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley#_note-4)</SUP><SUP class=reference id=_ref-5>[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley#_note-5)</SUP>
Author Chris Hedges' 2006 book American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Fascists:_The_Christian_Right_and_the_War_on_America) notes the openly militaristic metaphors Parsley has used, particularly in describing his opponents:
The secular media never likes it when I say this, so let me say it twice. Man your battle stations! Ready your weapons! They say this rhetoric is so inciting. I came to incite a riot. ... Man your battle stations. Ready your weapons. Lock and load--for the thirty, forty liberal pastors who filed against our ministry with the Internal Revenue Service. ... Let the struggle begin. Let it begin in your heart today with a shout unto him who has called us to war--not only that, he has empowered you and I to win. —Rod Parsley<SUP class=reference id=_ref-Hedges_0>[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley#_note-Hedges)</SUP>
Parsley has also been criticised by the Progress Ohio (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Progress_Ohio&action=edit&redlink=1) for his questionable fundraising tactics to gain support for Parsley's campaign against ratifying hate crime legislation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard_Act) within the United States. <SUP class=reference id=_ref-6>[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley#_note-6)</SUP><SUP class=reference id=_ref-7>[10]" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Parsley#_note-7)</SUP>
Sounds like a madman to me. I wonder how McCain feels about him and his rantings? They both like eternal war, or so it sounds. That's what Bush promised us. Bush is certainly delivering. Can you imagine McCain? Let's see ... bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran ...
I say let's elect a president that has the fewest ties to the military industrial political complex. That would be Obama.
you think? well, think again........you'll get it right eventually
Sen. Barack Obama requested $8 million for a military defense contractor that has close ties to one of his most prodigious fundraisers.
Obama disclosed the 2006 request on a long list of earmark requests (https://answercenter.barackobama.com/cgi-bin/barackobama.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=172&p_created=1205426026&p_sid=TNlxoC-i&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9M) his campaign made public today. The $8 million was for something called a "High Explosive Air Burst Technology Program." The request led to $1.3 million in funding for the program. According to the campaign's earmark disclosure, the defense project was overseen by General Dynamics, one of the nation's largest military contractors. Obama's Illinois finance chairman, James S. Crown, serves on the company's board of directors and his family holds a sizable stake in the company.
https://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/03/13/a_military_earmarks_ties_to_th.html (https://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/03/13/a_military_earmarks_ties_to_th.html)
I will finish the fight against Al Qaeda. And I will lead the world to combat the common threats of the 21st century: nuclear weapons and terrorism; climate change and poverty; genocide and disease. And I will send once more a message to those yearning faces beyond our shores that says, "You matter to us. Your future is our future. And our moment is now.”
<CITE>— Barack Obama, Des Moines, Iowa, November 10, 2007</CITE>
<CITE></CITE>
<CITE>Obama threatens military force against Al Qaeda in Pakistan https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-070801obama,0,5675270.story (https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-070801obama,0,5675270.story)
The Wars Will Not Stop...........try again
</CITE>
Braggi
03-21-2008, 03:03 PM
... I will finish the fight against Al Qaeda. And I will lead the world to combat the common threats of the 21st century: nuclear weapons and terrorism; climate change and poverty; genocide and disease. And I will send once more a message to those yearning faces beyond our shores that says, "You matter to us. Your future is our future. And our moment is now.”
<cite>— Barack Obama, Des Moines, Iowa, November 10, 2007</cite>
<cite></cite>
<cite>Obama threatens military force against Al Qaeda in Pakistan https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-070801obama,0,5675270.story (https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-070801obama,0,5675270.story)
The Wars Will Not Stop...........try again
</cite>
I realize Obama's military advisers are old school militarists. I fully realize that and I think it's his worst downfall so far. There might be others I'm unaware of. But what he says in that quote you would admit, is a whole lot better than ... bomb bomb Iran. And Hillary has been a part of the Military Industrial Political Complex for decades ... so? You suggest Hillary is better than Obama? Why? Obama probably still has the youthful arrogance to tell some of his advisors that he has a higher moral standard than they do. Of course that could cost him his life, but he may be braver and smarter than we know. Hillary is in the pockets of the corportatists. She is one. Obama isn't one yet. A high percentage of his money still comes from human beings. That speaks well of him and suggests he may have a little more independence than Clinton or McCain who has already declared his alliance with militarism.
Obama is the clear choice if we want to get out of military entaglements.
And you don't have to talk down to me, Jeff.
The "try again" stuff is getting old.
-Jeff
voxregalis
03-21-2008, 03:17 PM
Braggi;52767 I realize Obama's military advisers are old school militarists. I fully realize that and I think it's his worst downfall so far. There might be others I'm unaware of. But what he says in that quote you would admit, is a whole lot better than ... bomb bomb Iran. And Hillary has been a part of the Military Industrial Political Complex for decades ... so? You suggest Hillary is better than Obama? Why? Obama probably still has the youthful arrogance to tell some of his advisors that he has a higher moral standard than they do. Of course that could cost him his life, but he may be braver and smarter than we know. Hillary is in the pockets of the corportatists. She is one. Obama isn't one yet. A high percentage of his money still comes from human beings. That speaks well of him and suggests he may have a little more independence than Clinton or McCain who has already declared his alliance with militarism.
Obama is the clear choice if we want to get out of military entaglements.
And you don't have to talk down to me, Jeff. sorry for that
The "try again" stuff is getting old. just to point out that you do
not know what you're saying
First you say "Obama is the clear choice if we want to get out of military entaglements"
Then you say "I realize Obama's military advisors are old school militarists."
You do not make much sense there, buddy. Sorry
It will be "business as usual"..."pick your wars"....no matter who "they" put in the White House.
That is the "name of the game".
Ever look into the Federal Reserve?
Who runs America?
The Federal Reserve
Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmPchuXIXQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmPchuXIXQ)
Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBZne09Gf5A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBZne09Gf5A)
Part 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjUrib_Gh0Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjUrib_Gh0Y)
Part 4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BVNN1wqw3k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BVNN1wqw3k)
Part 5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPPFgHF9VR4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPPFgHF9VR4)
Who is President means VERY little in reality.
Braggi
03-21-2008, 04:01 PM
...
And you don't have to talk down to me, Jeff. sorry for that
The "try again" stuff is getting old. just to point out that you do
not know what you're saying ...
Well, I think it's becoming clear who knows what.
...
Who runs America?...
Who is President means VERY little in reality.
I know all about it. I studied with Your Heritage Protection Association in the early '80s for several years. I watched them get their printing presses confiscated by the Feds when their most printed booklet was the Constitution of the United States. I have five crates full of Supreme Court cases I've read. I can defend myself in court quite well. (For those of you who are bewildered by all this, don't bother about it.) I know the IRS is not supported by law but by regulation. I know the Amendment creating the income tax was never ratified. I know the Federal Reserve isn't Federal.
So what? What do you suggest we do about it? Suicide is always an option, I suppose. I'll vote for the lesser of the evils. That's Obama. I'm not a fool, Jeff, and I'm not as ignorant as I might seem. I am showing poor judgment, possibly, by engaging in this conversation with you, but you have an energy this country needs. You might be worth saving if you can be reached.
This isn't a time to give up hope. This is a time when there is more hope in the political process than ever before even though it's a time that we face environmental and financial collapse. The US has a lot of assets and number one among them is the energy of our people.
My hope is that Obama can focus the energy of our people and get us back on a path to prosperity and right livelihood. We have to stop robbing the Third World while begging dictators and communists to finance our misadventures. I have more hope that Obama can do this than the other choices.
-Jeff
Sabrina
03-21-2008, 04:17 PM
Foxregregalis, thank you. Now I am definately voting for Obama! After seeing this kind of negative ignorant video propaganda crap, and after I've done all my own true research on this, so far pretty damn great man, I am VOTING FOR OBAMA! YES WE CAN!
The shocking comment Barack Obama does not want you to hear!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDaO7N-JujU&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDaO7N-JujU&feature=related)
Barack Obama shocks the world!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pO1dIKgfPw&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pO1dIKgfPw&feature=related)
Barack Obama's BIZARRE speech in Georgia - OMG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo5h8RpP0EM&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo5h8RpP0EM&feature=related)
Obama stumbles in MSNBC Debate on Israel and Islam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnZJePN40fw&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnZJePN40fw&feature=related)
An Obama-Rezko primer
https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080310/ap_on_el_pr/obama_rezko_q_a (https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080310/ap_on_el_pr/obama_rezko_q_a)
Tony Rezko
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoin_Rezko (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoin_Rezko)
Antoin "Tony" Rezko (born 1955 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955) in Aleppo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo), Syria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria)) is an American (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_America) restaurateur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restaurant) and real estate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_estate) developer in Chicago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago), Illinois (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois). Rezko is currently facing federal charges of attempted extortion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion), money laundering (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering), and fraud (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud).
voxregalis
03-21-2008, 04:21 PM
[quote=Braggi;52775]Well, I think it's becoming clear who knows what.
I know all about it. I studied with Your Heritage Protection Association in the early '80s for several years. I watched them get their printing presses confiscated by the Feds when their most printed booklet was the Constitution of the United States. I have five crates full of Supreme Court cases I've read. I can defend myself in court quite well. (For those of you who are bewildered by all this, don't bother about it.) I know the IRS is not supported by law but by regulation. I know the Amendment creating the income tax was never ratified. I know the Federal Reserve isn't Federal.
So what? What do you suggest we do about it? Suicide is always an option, I suppose. I'll vote for the lesser of the evils. (a man of principle) That's Obama. I'm not a fool, oh? Jeff, and I'm not as ignorant as I might seem. :hmmm:I am showing poor judgment, possibly, by engaging in this conversation with you, but you have an energy this country needs. You might be worth saving (The Argument from Intimidation is a confession of intellectual impotence) if you can be reached.
This isn't a time to give up hope.
<DT>He that lives upon hope will die fasting. <DD class=author>Benjamin Franklin (https://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Benjamin_Franklin/)
This is a time when there is more hope in the political process than ever before even though it's a time that we face environmental and financial collapse. The US has a lot of assets and number one among them is the energy of our people. </DD>
My hope is that Obama can focus the energy of our people and get us back on a path to prosperity and right livelihood. We have to stop robbing the Third World while begging dictators and communists to finance our misadventures. I have more hope that Obama can do this than the other choices.
-Jeff
voxregalis
03-21-2008, 04:29 PM
[quote=Sabrina;52780]Foxregregalis, thank you. Now I am definately voting for Obama! After seeing this kind of negative ignorant video propaganda crap, and after I've done all my own true research on this, so far pretty damn great man, I am VOTING FOR OBAMA! YES WE CAN!
:vote1: :kneel: down you go:flushed:
Lenny
03-21-2008, 04:42 PM
No, I am not calling you scum. I figured you wanted to post and you did. If you posted to start a flame and believe that race baiting stuff is ture, then you are scum. If you posted to let people know that there are scum out there, then thanks. We now know and you did a public service.
The people that put that You Tube are scum. Pulling the race card is scum sucking, no?
Especially in light of painting a false picture that would suck up more energy to refute than worth.
It's as if putting out that Obama is a Muslim.
BTW, do you think Obama is going to be advised by the likes of Wright? I doubt it.:2cents:
:hmmm:who , exactly is scum?
Are you calling me names for posting these videos?
I think we should be aware of the kind of man who is going to be a potential presidential candidate.
His spiritual "advisor" is a man filled with racial hatred and divisive speech.
A conspiracy theorist, who has labeled the "white man" as evil.
The thought of this man leading the country....being ADVISED by the likes of his prejudiced pastor is HORRIFYING!! jb
Although I did hear Obama's speech this morning ON race. It is brilliant! He is brilliant. And I ain't even voting for him.....maybe!:2cents:
voxregalis
03-21-2008, 09:24 PM
[quote=Lenny;52786]No, I am not calling you scum. I figured you wanted to post and you did. If you posted to start a flame and believe that race baiting stuff is ture, then you are scum. If you posted to let people know that there are scum out there, then thanks. We now know and you did a public service.
The people that put that You Tube are scum. Pulling the race card is scum sucking, no?
Especially in light of painting a false picture that would suck up more energy to refute than worth.
It's as if putting out that Obama is a Muslim.
BTW, do you think Obama is going to be advised by the likes of Wright? I doubt it.:2cents:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Lenny wrote: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/orangebuttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?p=52786#post52786)
No, I am not calling you scum. I figured you wanted to post and you did. If you posted to start a flame and believe that race baiting stuff is ture, then you are scum.
The Anti-Defamation League is proud to be a supporting partner of two current anti-bullying and anti-harassment initiatives:
"No Name-Calling Week (https://www.nonamecallingweek.org/cgi-bin/iowa/home.html),"
If you posted to let people know that there are scum out there, then thanks. We now know and you did a public service.
The people that put that You Tube are scum. Pulling the race card is scum sucking, no?
Especially in light of painting a false picture that would suck up more energy to refute than worth.
It's as if putting out that Obama is a Muslim.
BTW, do you think Obama is going to be advised by the likes of Wright? I doubt it.:2cents:
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->I post here because I have been given the freedom to share my opinions and to learn the opinions of others. ( Thank you WACCOBB :WaccoRays: )
Is there a candidate for president that you like better than Obama, Clinton, or McCain?
Edward
<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->I post here because I have been given the freedom to share my opinions and to learn the opinions of others. ( Thank you WACCOBB :WaccoRays: )
djmama
03-22-2008, 02:05 AM
First, Ralph Nader did not cost Gore the election. Consider that a Texas company, Data Technologies, hired by Florida's Secretary of State, listed and disqualified around 94,000 people - about 50,000 of whom were minorities - as felons, when 97% were not. That's about the number of people who voted for Nader. So why is Ralph the scapegoat instead of Data Technologies? Or what about the 200,000 Democrats in Florida who voted for GWB? And the Democratic party in general, which knew the election was stolen but didn't have the courage to say so? What about the entire U.S. Senate, where not one member would step up? Nader was the only one acting with integrity, and it's easier to keep bashing him than to look into the web of conspiracy and malfeasance that continued in 2004 and will not doubt be dusted off for 2008.
Incidentally, Greg Pallast, one of the few truth-tellers about the elections, says that the dirty tricks in 2006 were even worse. The only reason the Democrats got in was because their numbers were unexpected and overwhelming. Diebold etc. won't make that mistake again.
So who can win in 2008, assuming that we actually have an election? Personally, I think Obama has a better chance than Clinton. Hillary is divisive, has run a nasty campaign and is widely hated outside of our California bubble. All the Republicans need to do is run the video of her and Lieberman leaping to their feet and applauding wildly when Bush announced we were going to war.
Plus, she belongs to the Fellowship, a wierd group of evangelicals that includes Rupert Murdock and Sen. Brownback. (Google it!) Here's an excerpt from the Mother Jones article:
The Fellowship's long-term goal is "a leadership led by God—leaders of all levels of society who direct projects as they are led by the spirit." According to the Fellowship's archives, the spirit has in the past led its members in Congress to increase U.S. support for the Duvalier regime in Haiti and the Park dictatorship in South Korea. The Fellowship's God-led men have also included General Suharto of Indonesia; Honduran general and death squad organizer Gustavo Alvarez Martinez; a Deutsche Bank official disgraced by financial ties to Hitler; and dictator Siad Barre of Somalia, plus a list of other generals and dictators.
Not all experience is good experience. Thanks, anyway, I'll take my chances with Obama. After his speech, I think the new question is, "Is American ready for an intelligent president." I hope so, but I doubt it.
Clearly many of us are passionate about the Obama/Clinton debate. What seems to us to be most important is -- who will make the best leader to clean up the GWB mess nationally and internationally.
While Barack is amazingly inspiring and awesome, and we love him ---do we really know what he is capable of doing?
One of the pitfalls in being overly optimistic and naive about how the world works is that we can end up with much worse than centrist. Ralph Nadar's naive voters pushed Bush over the edge in Florida. People who voted in the election for candidates who had no choice helped to ensure Bush's undeserved and unfortunate victory.
Now we are at a crossroads. What is the top priority in our country right now? Is it the race issue? Or is it cleaning up the Republican's worldwide mess and fixing our nation.
We long for the day when Obama can flourish - his message is something we all thirst for. BUT WORDS ARE NOT DEEDS.
He is new, untried, unproven. We simply cannot afford the risk, especially now that we're getting to know more about him, and find out he's part of a fiery anti-government ministry, that he has had unsavory real estate transactions with a convicted criminal.
Hillary is far from perfect, but she has stood the test of time. SHe has been through the fire, and emerged victorious. Let's vote for someone who has the best chance of bringing our country together.
And while we love Obama, right now it's just not his time. What is bound to happen, and is already occurring, is that a great deal of focus will shift to the race issues. While this is clearly important for our internal healing of the country, right now there are enormous challenges on the international scene and disastrous economic conditions at home that have to potential to destroy our country if not addressed with substance.
Hillary has proved her abilities to do the nuts and bolts, nitty gritty hard work for improving the lot of the citizens of New York, and she can do this for the US. If you're undecided, consider carefully who has the best chances of beating McCain, and leading us back to greater sanity nationally. We think
it's Hil-Time.
Blessings K-Lee
Valley Oak
03-24-2008, 10:56 AM
Outstanding post, Susan! I sincerely wish more people were as informed as you are.
Thank you,
Edward
First, Ralph Nader did not cost Gore the election. Consider that a Texas company, Data Technologies, hired by Florida's Secretary of State, listed and disqualified around 94,000 people - about 50,000 of whom were minorities - as felons, when 97% were not. That's about the number of people who voted for Nader. So why is Ralph the scapegoat instead of Data Technologies? Or what about the 200,000 Democrats in Florida who voted for GWB? And the Democratic party in general, which knew the election was stolen but didn't have the courage to say so? What about the entire U.S. Senate, where not one member would step up? Nader was the only one acting with integrity, and it's easier to keep bashing him than to look into the web of conspiracy and malfeasance that continued in 2004 and will not doubt be dusted off for 2008.
Incidentally, Greg Pallast, one of the few truth-tellers about the elections, says that the dirty tricks in 2006 were even worse. The only reason the Democrats got in was because their numbers were unexpected and overwhelming. Diebold etc. won't make that mistake again.
So who can win in 2008, assuming that we actually have an election? Personally, I think Obama has a better chance than Clinton. Hillary is divisive, has run a nasty campaign and is widely hated outside of our California bubble. All the Republicans need to do is run the video of her and Lieberman leaping to their feet and applauding wildly when Bush announced we were going to war.
Plus, she belongs to the Fellowship, a wierd group of evangelicals that includes Rupert Murdock and Sen. Brownback. (Google it!) Here's an excerpt from the Mother Jones article:
The Fellowship's long-term goal is "a leadership led by God—leaders of all levels of society who direct projects as they are led by the spirit." According to the Fellowship's archives, the spirit has in the past led its members in Congress to increase U.S. support for the Duvalier regime in Haiti and the Park dictatorship in South Korea. The Fellowship's God-led men have also included General Suharto of Indonesia; Honduran general and death squad organizer Gustavo Alvarez Martinez; a Deutsche Bank official disgraced by financial ties to Hitler; and dictator Siad Barre of Somalia, plus a list of other generals and dictators.
Not all experience is good experience. Thanks, anyway, I'll take my chances with Obama. After his speech, I think the new question is, "Is American ready for an intelligent president." I hope so, but I doubt it.
arthousefilms
03-24-2008, 05:00 PM
Blah blah blah. Tit for tat at nauseam. Anybody can parse any words. Even the bible contradicts itself multiple times, even more so between the old and new testaments. I think the real point here is that Obama is the only anti-war candidate whose voting record proves it. Unlike Hilary who voted for the war and the funding of it. So it's all a bunch of words, words, words until one considers who actually voted FOR the war and who voted AGAINST THE WAR.
thewholetruth
03-26-2008, 04:58 AM
The sad truth is that neither Obama nor Clinton are presidential material. That Obama can bring his wife and daughters to a racist church for 17 years where a man spouts rhetoric insisting black women HAVE to use their bodies to get ahead, then deny he heard ANY of the racial attacks on "the United States of White America" is a blatant lie. Obama is a liar. Clinton isn't qualified, either. Being first lady doesn't make one presidential material! LOL So really we'd be looking at Bill and his cronies getting back in power, because Hillary is part of that clan, and no other. She isn't bringing a fresh perspective to the White House. She's bringing the Good Old Boys who supported Bill back into the White House, if she comes (which she won't win, btw).
I think it's phenomenal that a black man and a woman are running for president. Unfortunately, these particular candidates aren't qualified to be president, as race and gender aren't the sole qualifying factors. I would have liked to have seen a black candidate from a HEALTHY church rather than a RACIST church, and a woman candidate WITHOUT connections to the Good Old Boys network.
Maybe one day. FTR, McCain was a Democrat just a few years ago. I think he's your man. As a Republican, I can't support McCain, for that reason: he's really a Democrat, and a man who will say or do whatever it takes to become president. No one really knows what the man believes anymore. The only man of integrity in the primary was Romney, and as much of a problem I have with Mormonism (and the prophet Joe Smith - what?!?), now I'm praying Romney jumps back into the race. He's a great business leader and a man of integrity.
The truth is that right now, we don't have a viable candidate running for president. Just a few wannabes who aren't qualified to lead this great nation.
Blah blah blah. Tit for tat at nauseam. Anybody can parse any words. Even the bible contradicts itself multiple times, even more so between the old and new testaments. I think the real point here is that Obama is the only anti-war candidate whose voting record proves it. Unlike Hilary who voted for the war and the funding of it. So it's all a bunch of words, words, words until one considers who actually voted FOR the war and who voted AGAINST THE WAR.
Lenny
03-26-2008, 05:27 PM
I find Obama to appear presidential, so far. I would think going to a church that CHALLENGES your conventional thought to be the point of going to church, no? And Obama grew up in a very strange world, or at least his background would lead one to believe so. Face it, we live and work in a "la ti da, go along to get-along" world, and this preacher is anything BUT.
As for that church being racist.....I tried, almost successfully, to put my self in that Reverend's shoes.....the guy grew up in the South... and did you see his photo? From the looks of it, he was spoon fed hatred having grown up there. The guy is MOSTLY white, and in this country there ain't no such thing as "mostly". He wasn't called an "almost" nigger while at a tender age. Then he goes and becomes a jarheaded leather neck, into combat and gets shot. If ANYBODY has "more of a right" to be angry with America, he does! And yes, nobody has "more of a right" but I trust you may get the point.
Now it is a rare lotus blossom that can grew in a pool of shit and not smell like that. The fact was, and is, black women HAVE to use their bodies to get ahead. How does that surprise you. I don't think that is rhetoric, nor a historical fallacy.
I can understand how one may call it a "racist" church, but it may also NOT be.....however there are valid points on both sides of that coin.
As for he or Hillary being a liar...when you say "politician" are you not saying the same thing? The only one that WON'T lie, ever in the whole history of the planet would have been Jesus. And, as it is told, when HE comes, there will be other issues to deal with! Sorry we have such poor choices and it is true we are stuck with the "lesser than" notion...so I would advise you to go and write in the candidate your heart wants. That will send a message and I have faith our country can stand any one person that happens to sit in that horrible position for a few years.
The sad truth is that neither Obama nor Clinton are presidential material. That Obama can bring his wife and daughters to a racist church for 17 years where a man spouts rhetoric insisting black women HAVE to use their bodies to get ahead, then deny he heard ANY of the racial attacks on "the United States of White America" is a blatant lie. Obama is a liar. Clinton isn't qualified, either. Being first lady doesn't make one presidential material! LOL So really we'd be looking at Bill and his cronies getting back in power, because Hillary is part of that clan, and no other. She isn't bringing a fresh perspective to the White House. She's bringing the Good Old Boys who supported Bill back into the White House, if she comes (which she won't win, btw).
I think it's phenomenal that a black man and a woman are running for president. Unfortunately, these particular candidates aren't qualified to be president, as race and gender aren't the sole qualifying factors. I would have liked to have seen a black candidate from a HEALTHY church rather than a RACIST church, and a woman candidate WITHOUT connections to the Good Old Boys network.
Maybe one day. FTR, McCain was a Democrat just a few years ago. I think he's your man. As a Republican, I can't support McCain, for that reason: he's really a Democrat, and a man who will say or do whatever it takes to become president. No one really knows what the man believes anymore. The only man of integrity in the primary was Romney, and as much of a problem I have with Mormonism (and the prophet Joe Smith - what?!?), now I'm praying Romney jumps back into the race. He's a great business leader and a man of integrity.
The truth is that right now, we don't have a viable candidate running for president. Just a few wannabes who aren't qualified to lead this great nation.
courtneyarnold
03-26-2008, 09:57 PM
That Obama can bring his wife and daughters to a racist church for 17 years where a man spouts rhetoric insisting black women HAVE to use their bodies to get ahead, then deny he heard ANY of the racial attacks on "the United States of White America" is a blatant lie. Obama is a liar.
It's certainly interesting to see how up in arms people are about the comments of Obama's minister...which were grounded in 200+ years of racial disparity. Where was the backlash against Falwell and Robertson when they blamed 9/11 on gays and feminists?? Did the public demand that Bush denounce his ties? Nope. In fact, when Falwell died the president declared a National Day of Mourning!
It seems to me that there's a bit of a double-standard here. Could it be a diversionary tactic? Defamation of character? Plain ol' political b.s.? Surely it's not bigotry. We don't have that in America anymore... :hello:
thewholetruth
03-27-2008, 06:25 AM
I live in a world where how you were raised doesn't excuse your inappropriate behavior today, Lenny. I live in a world that embraces "personal responsibility" and doesn't use excuses like "he was spoon fed hatred" or "he was called nigger" or "grew in a pool of shit" to excuse inexcusable behavior. People recover from bad childhoods, sir, and until they do they shouldn't be leading other people into their angry tirade distorted belief system. The man is SUPPOSED to be man of God. Letting his brokenness dictate his actions today is called "dysfunction". Would you have so much grace for a child molester, if you knew he had been molested as a child? Our past doesn't excuse our present. Personal responsibility and emotional maturity need to come into play here somewhere. Codepending broken people by saying "We understand why you're an angry bigot" doesn't serve them at all...and it doesn't serve anyone.
I find Obama to appear presidential, so far. I would think going to a church that CHALLENGES your conventional thought to be the point of going to church, no? And Obama grew up in a very strange world, or at least his background would lead one to believe so. Face it, we live and work in a "la ti da, go along to get-along" world, and this preacher is anything BUT.
As for that church being racist.....I tried, almost successfully, to put my self in that Reverend's shoes.....the guy grew up in the South... and did you see his photo? From the looks of it, he was spoon fed hatred having grown up there. The guy is MOSTLY white, and in this country there ain't no such thing as "mostly". He wasn't called an "almost" nigger while at a tender age. Then he goes and becomes a jarheaded leather neck, into combat and gets shot. If ANYBODY has "more of a right" to be angry with America, he does! And yes, nobody has "more of a right" but I trust you may get the point.
Now it is a rare lotus blossom that can grew in a pool of shit and not smell like that. The fact was, and is, black women HAVE to use their bodies to get ahead. How does that surprise you. I don't think that is rhetoric, nor a historical fallacy.
I can understand how one may call it a "racist" church, but it may also NOT be.....however there are valid points on both sides of that coin.
As for he or Hillary being a liar...when you say "politician" are you not saying the same thing? The only one that WON'T lie, ever in the whole history of the planet would have been Jesus. And, as it is told, when HE comes, there will be other issues to deal with! Sorry we have such poor choices and it is true we are stuck with the "lesser than" notion...so I would advise you to go and write in the candidate your heart wants. That will send a message and I have faith our country can stand any one person that happens to sit in that horrible position for a few years.
thewholetruth
03-27-2008, 07:32 AM
I'm curious if Wright's comments were aimed toward homosexuals or women, would you EXCUSE THEM in the same cavalier manner? And does what happened in 2001 excuse racism today? I'm not seeing how your rationalization is working here, pointing back to a completely unrelated incident from 7 years ago, which, btw, did not occur week after week IN CHURCH from the pulpit for years on end, the way Wright's racist attacks on America and on White people have.
It's certainly interesting to see how up in arms people are about the comments of Obama's minister...which were grounded in 200+ years of racial disparity. Where was the backlash against Falwell and Robertson when they blamed 9/11 on gays and feminists?? Did the public demand that Bush denounce his ties? Nope. In fact, when Falwell died the president declared a National Day of Mourning!
It seems to me that there's a bit of a double-standard here. Could it be a diversionary tactic? Defamation of character? Plain ol' political b.s.? Surely it's not bigotry. We don't have that in America anymore... :hello:
arthousefilms
03-27-2008, 09:00 AM
Excuse me, but I don't think any "Man of God" would be bombing an entire country that never attacked us. For that matter, what "man of God" would ever harm children and families for a war that was entirely concocted, has gone on for 5 years, and has met zero of its objectives. Wait, what were the the objectives again? Why are our brave military women and men on their third and 4th tours of duty? What are they fighting for exactly?
Obama is the ONLY candidate who literally voted AGAINST the war, so he is more of a man of God than anybody!!
And just to be clear, Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, New
Zealand, and dozens of other countries do perfectly
fine without war.
At any rate, the cute little marketing campaign slogan of "Shock and Awe" that started the war has ended up ruining the lives of thousands of people. Little children lost plenty of
limbs and family members and the country had never
once attacked the united states. Our own U.S. service people are missing out on their kids growing up. But boy, we can sure say we are "Men of God" and oh so patriotic! Nice.
To me, killing people in a peaceful nation is
revolting. But at least America really kicks ass!
courtneyarnold
03-27-2008, 10:15 AM
Sorry, I'm not trying to excuse anything. I don't support Wright's comments themselves, but I do support his right to feel angry about the pervasive racism that still exists in this country today and which he must face each day as a Black man, even all these years after the Civil Rights Movement.
To answer your point about the "unrelated incident," Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and many, many other ministers (Fundamentalist and otherwise) do indeed spew hatred and bigotry from their many pulpits...and have for years on end. Well, to be fair, Falwell's dead, but plenty of others are still going strong. The Christian Right is even so deep into government at the Municipal, State, and National levels that rights are being revoked or challenged all over the country and there has been an ongoing effort to amend the U.S. Constitution to institutionalize bigotry in the name of "protecting" the American family. Surely you know this? I can't imagine you've managed to avoid all mention of it for the past...how many years now?
None of that, however, is my point. Bigotry is bigotry. But when it's convenient to those who put their agenda before their ethics, bigotry is also a golden opportunity for self-righteous hypocrisy. By all means, bring Obama down for his affiliations with an angry Black man who crossed the PC line. But I'm not a biggot...no...God said it, not me! It's a perfect opportunity, of course: Wright's comments alienate both the overt white racists and, perhaps even more, self-satisfied liberals who have lulled themselves into believing that the "race" thing was dealt with in the 60's, that they are in no way contribute to or benefit from a racist system. So then the media has its field day, the nation is up in arms, and the double-standard is swept under the rug in the excitement of it all.
I applaud Obama for bringing race back to the table on the national stage. Heck, he even got close to talking about class... But he was naive at best (or downright stupid) not to have recognized his relationship with Wright for the political powder keg it was. His big error was as a politician, in choosing to maintain his personal allegiances instead of cleaning house for the camera. Maybe his choice and the values it reflects are commendable, maybe they're a sign of potential trouble if he winds up in the White House. If anything I'll bet he's learned a lesson of some kind from all of this...
I'm curious if Wright's comments were aimed toward homosexuals or women, would you EXCUSE THEM in the same cavalier manner? And does what happened in 2001 excuse racism today? I'm not seeing how your rationalization is working here, pointing back to a completely unrelated incident from 7 years ago, which, btw, did not occur week after week IN CHURCH from the pulpit for years on end, the way Wright's racist attacks on America and on White people have.
Lenny
03-27-2008, 07:48 PM
I live in a world where how you were raised doesn't excuse your inappropriate behavior today, Lenny. I live in a world that embraces "personal responsibility" and doesn't use excuses like "he was spoon fed hatred" or "he was called nigger" or "grew in a pool of shit" to excuse inexcusable behavior. People recover from bad childhoods, sir, and until they do they shouldn't be leading other people into their angry tirade distorted belief system. The man is SUPPOSED to be man of God. Letting his brokenness dictate his actions today is called "dysfunction". Would you have so much grace for a child molester, if you knew he had been molested as a child? Our past doesn't excuse our present. Personal responsibility and emotional maturity need to come into play here somewhere. Codepending broken people by saying "We understand why you're an angry bigot" doesn't serve them at all...and it doesn't serve anyone.
Don, I am sorry that I was not clear on my post. I did not try to excuse the reverend's behavior, but to give reason for such. In the "recovery" from bad childhoods, there is that "thing" which one must integrate into our recovery. Such a process is integrated into the personality and behavior, it is not shed completely, but dealt with continuously. He is angry, and has reason to be so, not merely excuses. If he preaches hate to those that don't hate, then he is wrong. If he preaches hate towards those he deems haters, then he MAY BE wrong, and misses the mark. I know of only ONE that loved His haters, and since Him all others fall short, no? Of course the one I am thinking of also got angry as well. He started a riot! And in church, of all places! As for child molesters, knowing that they had suffered the same as children, you could hate their deeds and actions, hate the consequences of what happened to them AND what they are creating, but what good is it hating them? Removing them from the world would be better, so we have prisons. Personally, I think Matthew 18:6 is a better solution, but then I am only one guy.
If you find Reverend Wright divisive, you may be correct in doing so. I don't so much.....listen to him, not just the sound bites, even he may have an element of truth in his word.
Oh, and for the record, we are TOTALLY responsible for our own actions, no matter what, from when, or where, we were raised. But that is our makeup as well. If one is raised watching TV, no school, brothers selling crap, sisters whoring all over, no dad, mom doing whatever, do you really expect a Rhodes scholar to be produced? Or even a healthy individual? We can demand all we want...and......"we shall overcome" is just another song, and it don't even rhyme nor have rhythm! Thanks for the challeng of trying to put so much in such a short space. :2cents:
thewholetruth
03-28-2008, 06:49 AM
Courtney, I support his right to feel angry, as well. LOL But what he does from the pulpit is no different than what Muslim extremists preach: hatred and division, not love and reconciliation which is God's way.
And perhaps you could actually quote where Falwell and Robertson preached hatred from the pulpit, Courtney, not confusing sermons with public statements they've made to the press or on Robertson's TV show. To my knowledge, neither have ever preached hatred or bigotry from the pulpit. They preach the Gospel.
Naturally, the Gospel it rubs homosexuals, adulterers, thieves, and liars the wrong way because the Gospel discourages those actions, but preaching the Word of God doesn't make it hatred or bigotry just because someone doesn't like what's in the Bible. The Gospel says to love the sinner, hate the sin. People who call that "hate" or "bigotry" are choosing to twist the Gospel message. Love the sinner. That seems to be the part they miss. We can't go back and rewrite the Bible. LOL It says what it says. People either believe it or they don't. But if one feels convicted by it, that's one thing. Taking it personally has to do with self-centeredness. Unless it says specifically "Courtney" (or "Bob Jones/Jack Williams/Jill Willis/Who Ever", which it doesn't), then the Gospel is referring to our actions, ALL of us, because of the results of such actions are separation from God.
What gay people and straight people alike seem to miss is where in the New Testament, after Romans 1:18-32, Roman 2 tells us we are not to judge, that we are "inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself: for you who judge practice the same things". Pastors tend to leave that out, I think, and that is where Jesus levels the playing field, reminding us that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It breaks my heart that homosexuals tend to reject the Lord because He warns us about the consequences of our actions. But is warning us really "hatred and bigotry"? I think not.
Again, please show me links to where you found Robertson or Falwell preaching hatred and bigotry from the pulpit. Specific sermons, not generalizations. Thanks, Courtney.
Sorry, I'm not trying to excuse anything. I don't support Wright's comments themselves, but I do support his right to feel angry about the pervasive racism that still exists in this country today and which he must face each day as a Black man, even all these years after the Civil Rights Movement.
To answer your point about the "unrelated incident," Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and many, many other ministers (Fundamentalist and otherwise) do indeed spew hatred and bigotry from their many pulpits...and have for years on end. Well, to be fair, Falwell's dead, but plenty of others are still going strong. The Christian Right is even so deep into government at the Municipal, State, and National levels that rights are being revoked or challenged all over the country and there has been an ongoing effort to amend the U.S. Constitution to institutionalize bigotry in the name of "protecting" the American family. Surely you know this? I can't imagine you've managed to avoid all mention of it for the past...how many years now?
None of that, however, is my point. Bigotry is bigotry. But when it's convenient to those who put their agenda before their ethics, bigotry is also a golden opportunity for self-righteous hypocrisy. By all means, bring Obama down for his affiliations with an angry Black man who crossed the PC line. But I'm not a biggot...no...God said it, not me! It's a perfect opportunity, of course: Wright's comments alienate both the overt white racists and, perhaps even more, self-satisfied liberals who have lulled themselves into believing that the "race" thing was dealt with in the 60's, that they are in no way contribute to or benefit from a racist system. So then the media has its field day, the nation is up in arms, and the double-standard is swept under the rug in the excitement of it all.
I applaud Obama for bringing race back to the table on the national stage. Heck, he even got close to talking about class... But he was naive at best (or downright stupid) not to have recognized his relationship with Wright for the political powder keg it was. His big error was as a politician, in choosing to maintain his personal allegiances instead of cleaning house for the camera. Maybe his choice and the values it reflects are commendable, maybe they're a sign of potential trouble if he winds up in the White House. If anything I'll bet he's learned a lesson of some kind from all of this...
Sabrina
03-28-2008, 11:05 AM
If I had more time I'd document these better, but here are a collection of quotes from Jerry Falwell, coming form this web page:https://www.dallasnews.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4410&sid=c8d337c230afea0da22ef4149dc2b232
Here are the hateful Falwel, and others quotes from the page:
God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, blaming civil libertarians, feminists, homosexuals, and abortion rights supporters for the terrorist attacks of Tuesday, September 11, 2001, to which Rev Pat Robertson agreed, quoted from John F Harris, "God Gave US 'What We Deserve,' Falwell Says," The Washington Post (September 14, 2001)
I sincerely believe that the collective efforts of many secularists during the past generation, resulting in the expulsion from our schools and from the public square, has left us vulnerable.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, after the 700 Club broadcast wherein he had blamed civil libertarians, feminists, homosexuals, and abortion rights supporters for the terrorist attacks of Tuesday, September 11, 2001, speaking to The New York Times, quoted from **** Meyer, "Holy Smoke," CBS News (September 15, 2001)
I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, America Can Be Saved, 1979 pp. 52-53, from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, Sermon, July 4, 1976
There is no separation of church and state. Modern US Supreme Courts have raped the Constitution and raped the Christian faith and raped the churches by misinterpreting what the Founders had in mind in the First Amendment to the Constitution.
-- Jerry Falwell
Billy Graham is the chief servant of Satan.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell
The ACLU is to Christians what the American Nazi party is to Jews.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell
AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharoah's chariotters.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell
Lenny
03-29-2008, 05:01 AM
Sabrina, I am having a tough time with the "hate" you ascribe to the below. I truly belive you find them hateful, but excuse my me as I can only see these quotes as an opinion, and not as "hateful". Slow down. Let me explain, please.
Let's say you live in a country and your family has lived in that country for thousands of generations (unheard and unthinkable here) and you have a world view, culture, and way of life that "revers", say, virginity. We may not see that way, but that IS how it is for you for the last 10,000 generations, all word of mouth, how the family and village did this and that, and blah, blah, blah. And EVERYBODY believed the same thing about virginity. And had similar things about Family, that being a role SO central to Life that the very thought of anything placed before family is silly. That IS how it is for most of the planet people. If anything it truly is a democratic WORLD CULTURE.
And then from across the water come foreigners stating that lesbianism is a viable way of life and encourages it! Britney Spears, Madonna, abortion, and divorce. And these folks claim and display that they are superior.
How would you feel? And react?
I think Falwell is speaking to US with that mentality. And he agrees with Osama Ben Laden, and the Pope, in that kind of narrow view. Don't you think?
:2cents:
Here are the hateful Falwel, and others quotes from the page:
God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, blaming civil libertarians, feminists, homosexuals, and abortion rights supporters for the terrorist attacks of Tuesday, September 11, 2001, to which Rev Pat Robertson agreed, quoted from John F Harris, "God Gave US 'What We Deserve,' Falwell Says," The Washington Post (September 14, 2001)
I sincerely believe that the collective efforts of many secularists during the past generation, resulting in the expulsion from our schools and from the public square, has left us vulnerable.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, after the 700 Club broadcast wherein he had blamed civil libertarians, feminists, homosexuals, and abortion rights supporters for the terrorist attacks of Tuesday, September 11, 2001, speaking to The New York Times, quoted from **** Meyer, "Holy Smoke," CBS News (September 15, 2001)
I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, America Can Be Saved, 1979 pp. 52-53, from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, Sermon, July 4, 1976
There is no separation of church and state. Modern US Supreme Courts have raped the Constitution and raped the Christian faith and raped the churches by misinterpreting what the Founders had in mind in the First Amendment to the Constitution.
-- Jerry Falwell
Billy Graham is the chief servant of Satan.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell
The ACLU is to Christians what the American Nazi party is to Jews.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell
AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharoah's chariotters.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell
thewholetruth
03-29-2008, 06:03 AM
I asked for "hate and bigotry" preached FROM THE PULPIT, Sabrina. Reading hearsay from the Dallas Morning News forum isn't that. Not even close. I know some of the idiotic things Falwell said while he was alive, but I don't know that he said any of them from the pulpit, like Wright does every week.
If I had more time I'd document these better, but here are a collection of quotes from Jerry Falwell, coming form this web page:https://www.dallasnews.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4410&sid=c8d337c230afea0da22ef4149dc2b232
Here are the hateful Falwel, and others quotes from the page:
God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, blaming civil libertarians, feminists, homosexuals, and abortion rights supporters for the terrorist attacks of Tuesday, September 11, 2001, to which Rev Pat Robertson agreed, quoted from John F Harris, "God Gave US 'What We Deserve,' Falwell Says," The Washington Post (September 14, 2001)
I sincerely believe that the collective efforts of many secularists during the past generation, resulting in the expulsion from our schools and from the public square, has left us vulnerable.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, after the 700 Club broadcast wherein he had blamed civil libertarians, feminists, homosexuals, and abortion rights supporters for the terrorist attacks of Tuesday, September 11, 2001, speaking to The New York Times, quoted from **** Meyer, "Holy Smoke," CBS News (September 15, 2001)
I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, America Can Be Saved, 1979 pp. 52-53, from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, Sermon, July 4, 1976
There is no separation of church and state. Modern US Supreme Courts have raped the Constitution and raped the Christian faith and raped the churches by misinterpreting what the Founders had in mind in the First Amendment to the Constitution.
-- Jerry Falwell
Billy Graham is the chief servant of Satan.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell
The ACLU is to Christians what the American Nazi party is to Jews.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell
AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharoah's chariotters.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell
thewholetruth
03-29-2008, 06:42 AM
The way that ignorance gets morphed into "movements" is due primarily to arrogance. That the American people think they have enough information (their own personal private CIA perhaps?) to judge why our military is sent to Iraq is completely arrogant and foolish. Americans do this all the time, thinking they know things they have NO WAY of knowing. Just the fact that Hussein (Saddam, not Barack) used MUSTARD GAS in his concerted effort to ELIMINATE the Kurds is reason enough for us to march in and oust his Hitlerish ass. To then leave, leaving the country unstable and open to opportunities for Muslim extremists (Iran, Alkaida, it's a long list over there) would be insane. WE put Hussein (Sadam, not Barrack) in power, and when he turned insane we took him out of power. The Iraqi people thank us. The American Liberals spit on us. Thank God there is freedom of speech, so the ignorant can spout all misinformed opinions they wish without threat of death, like it was in Iraq until we FREED them.
I'm not suggesting I understand why we marched in to Iraq. I'm not so arrogant (nor do I have a personal private CIA at my disposal). But I can see enough to see that it was warranted, justified, and has resulted in freedom for the Iraqi people from a tyrant who was indiscriminately killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people.
For a little perspective: Interestingly, more than 4,000 American babies are going to be killed today, and are killed every day right here in America by abortions, by parents who simply don't want their babies. I don't see Liberal Americans complaining about THOSE killings. Oh, but that might be because they're the ones DOING the killing. Food for thought...and an interesting example of how we rationalize killing here in America.
Excuse me, but I don't think any "Man of God" would be bombing an entire country that never attacked us. For that matter, what "man of God" would ever harm children and families for a war that was entirely concocted, has gone on for 5 years, and has met zero of its objectives. Wait, what were the the objectives again? Why are our brave military women and men on their third and 4th tours of duty? What are they fighting for exactly?
Obama is the ONLY candidate who literally voted AGAINST the war, so he is more of a man of God than anybody!!
And just to be clear, Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, New
Zealand, and dozens of other countries do perfectly
fine without war.
At any rate, the cute little marketing campaign slogan of "Shock and Awe" that started the war has ended up ruining the lives of thousands of people. Little children lost plenty of
limbs and family members and the country had never
once attacked the united states. Our own U.S. service people are missing out on their kids growing up. But boy, we can sure say we are "Men of God" and oh so patriotic! Nice.
To me, killing people in a peaceful nation is
revolting. But at least America really kicks ass!
courtneyarnold
03-30-2008, 07:01 PM
Thanks, Sabrina :):
I was away for the weekend and had no time to play The Price is Righteous, so I appreciate your buzzing in for the final round! Now let's all switch channels, shall we? I don't really see this going anywhere...not everyone is interested in objectivity.
If I had more time I'd document these better, but here are a collection of quotes from Jerry Falwell, coming form this web page:https://www.dallasnews.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4410&sid=c8d337c230afea0da22ef4149dc2b232
Here are the hateful Falwel, and others quotes from the page:
God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, blaming civil libertarians, feminists, homosexuals, and abortion rights supporters for the terrorist attacks of Tuesday, September 11, 2001, to which Rev Pat Robertson agreed, quoted from John F Harris, "God Gave US 'What We Deserve,' Falwell Says," The Washington Post (September 14, 2001)
I sincerely believe that the collective efforts of many secularists during the past generation, resulting in the expulsion from our schools and from the public square, has left us vulnerable.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, after the 700 Club broadcast wherein he had blamed civil libertarians, feminists, homosexuals, and abortion rights supporters for the terrorist attacks of Tuesday, September 11, 2001, speaking to The New York Times, quoted from **** Meyer, "Holy Smoke," CBS News (September 15, 2001)
I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, America Can Be Saved, 1979 pp. 52-53, from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell, Sermon, July 4, 1976
There is no separation of church and state. Modern US Supreme Courts have raped the Constitution and raped the Christian faith and raped the churches by misinterpreting what the Founders had in mind in the First Amendment to the Constitution.
-- Jerry Falwell
Billy Graham is the chief servant of Satan.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell
The ACLU is to Christians what the American Nazi party is to Jews.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell
AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharoah's chariotters.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell
thewholetruth
03-31-2008, 06:31 AM
So much for open-mindedness, I see. Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were interested in dialogue. I didn't realize you were really looking for a cheerleader, Courtney. My bad.
Don
Thanks, Sabrina :):
I was away for the weekend and had no time to play The Price is Righteous, so I appreciate your buzzing in for the final round! Now let's all switch channels, shall we? I don't really see this going anywhere...not everyone is interested in objectivity.
courtneyarnold
03-31-2008, 03:05 PM
No, you were right, Don. I was looking for dialogue...just not about scripture. My initial post was on the topic of the double-standard in mainstream political discourse. I posted in the hopes of shifting our focus away from the divisive, self-serving hype of the spin-doctors and back to the actual matter at hand, which if we'll all recall, is sorting out who might best represent us as president of this diverse and ailing nation.
You see, I actually believe that we as Americans have the right, responsibility, and individual capacities to consider both personal interests and the big picture. Sometimes that means stretching beyond our comfort zones and being willing to accept that just because something doesn't serve our own limited agenda or ideology that doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't for the greater good. And sometimes it means working together with people or groups with whom we've had no previous perceived commonality, and being open to understanding their perspectives and experiences. These are, in fact, important abilities that any president will need to master.
It is interesting, from the big picture point of view, to see that in this election cycle all three of the current candidates--Republican included--are running campaigns of far more intentionally cultivated "crossover" appeal than we've seen in recent elections. This in itself may be a sign of progress; or it may just represent a general tactical shift. The beauty of the democratic system is that each and every voter is allowed to decide for herself or himself which candidate they believe to have the greatest integrity, vision, and potential for success in office.
As for community dialogue--on this topic or any other--in my experience it is both healthiest and most fruitful when people come together with the intentions of both contributing to and becoming further informed by the communication experience. I am grateful for and inspired by the commitment of this particular community to engaged citizenship and community interaction. However, when the conversation digresses into ill- or narrowly informed bombast, then the effectiveness of the entire forum is compromised. It was for this reason that I suggested we all move on to a more productive topic.
I don't agree with your views on this particular issue, Don. I think it's safe to say that we would likely disagree about many things, and that we may well not even like each other as people if we were to meet in 3-D. What I know for sure is that I'm not going to change your mind about the interpretation of scripture or whether a minister's words behind a pulpit are subject to different ethical standards than his comments to the media...and that even if I did it would be in no way germane to the discussion at hand. I'll be happy to engage with you in different threads, but as far as I'm concerned I'm finished with this one.
Respectfully,
Courtney
So much for open-mindedness, I see. Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were interested in dialogue. I didn't realize you were really looking for a cheerleader, Courtney. My bad.
Don
arthousefilms
03-31-2008, 03:51 PM
YES! COURTNEY!!! You nailed it!!! Thanks. We are beating a dead horse here. When someone's heart is empty of love and joy as "certain" people on this thread, it's time to give up and move to happier places. Nicely put. May goodness fill the hearts of all.
ciao.
Lenny
03-31-2008, 05:01 PM
Well, so much for dialog. But then we don't need it, as you can see in folks' hearts.
And Courtney, good post, far to much to respond to per item, but thanks. More work!!! Always more work! :2cents:
YES! COURTNEY!!! You nailed it!!! Thanks. We are beating a dead horse here. When someone's heart is empty of love and joy as "certain" people on this thread, it's time to give up and move to happier places. Nicely put. May goodness fill the hearts of all.
ciao.
thewholetruth
04-01-2008, 06:36 AM
Courtney, thanks for your civil tone here. Let me correct you about something: Your comment to which I replied was that Falwell and Robertson preached hate from the pulpit. I asked you to show me proof where they've done that FROM THE PULPIT, and all you offered back was a bunch of internet crap of quotes they've made to the media, not from the pulpit. So you didn't back up your accusation of those men with facts, Courtney, and so you didn't qualify your comparing those men to Wright.
YOU SAID: "As for community dialogue--on this topic or any other--in my experience it is both healthiest and most fruitful when people come together with the intentions of both contributing to and becoming further informed by the communication experience. I am grateful for and inspired by the commitment of this particular community to engaged citizenship and community interaction."
I agree completely. This is what I sought when I came here.
YOU SAID: "However, when the conversation digresses into ill- or narrowly informed bombast, then the effectiveness of the entire forum is compromised."
Which is what your comparing Falwell & Robertson amounted to. You didn't present any proof identifying their remarks as coming from the pulpit, Courtney. I think you'll agree that if you can't produce evidence of your claims, then "...narrowly informed bombast.." seems to apply to your accusations of those men.
YOU SAID: "What I know for sure is that I'm not going to change your mind about the interpretation of scripture or whether a minister's words behind a pulpit are subject to different ethical standards than his comments to the media..."
But that wasn't the issue. You accused them of preaching hate from the pulpit, as Wright did. I asked for your sources, for proof. Whether or not their words from the pulpit/to the media are subject to different ethical standards was never a point raised here, and was not a point of contention between us.
YOU SAID: "I'll be happy to engage with you in different threads, but as far as I'm concerned I'm finished with this one."
I understand. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I hear you say is you're unwilling or unable to provide proof to back up your initial statement that Falwell and Robertson preach hate from the pulpit, and that you're unwilling to discuss it any longer. If that is an accurate conclusion that I've drawn about your statements, then I take it that you can't provide proof after all. You made a statement, I challenged the validity of that statement and asked for proof of your accusation, then you decide you're done here and close the door on the discussion rather than providing the evidence which supports your statement or humbly conceding that you have none.
Words mean something, Courtney. I've learned that opinions, if not based on facts, are like asses. Everyone has one and they almost all stink. But when opinions are based on facts, then they have value. If I'm throwing around opinion and/or accusations against others and have no proof or valid basis for those accusations, I think that's called "slander". I think. I'm not an attorney, so I might be wrong. LOL But before I accuse people of something, I like to make sure it's not based on emotional vomit, but on factual evidence...like Wright being a racist who preaches hate from the pulpit. That's a fact. I've seen no evidence that Falwell or Robertson ever preached hate from the pulpit, because you haven't provided any.
Words mean something. It's amazing how many people don't get that.
Don
No, you were right, Don. I was looking for dialogue...just not about scripture. My initial post was on the topic of the double-standard in mainstream political discourse. I posted in the hopes of shifting our focus away from the divisive, self-serving hype of the spin-doctors and back to the actual matter at hand, which if we'll all recall, is sorting out who might best represent us as president of this diverse and ailing nation.
You see, I actually believe that we as Americans have the right, responsibility, and individual capacities to consider both personal interests and the big picture. Sometimes that means stretching beyond our comfort zones and being willing to accept that just because something doesn't serve our own limited agenda or ideology that doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't for the greater good. And sometimes it means working together with people or groups with whom we've had no previous perceived commonality, and being open to understanding their perspectives and experiences. These are, in fact, important abilities that any president will need to master.
It is interesting, from the big picture point of view, to see that in this election cycle all three of the current candidates--Republican included--are running campaigns of far more intentionally cultivated "crossover" appeal than we've seen in recent elections. This in itself may be a sign of progress; or it may just represent a general tactical shift. The beauty of the democratic system is that each and every voter is allowed to decide for herself or himself which candidate they believe to have the greatest integrity, vision, and potential for success in office.
As for community dialogue--on this topic or any other--in my experience it is both healthiest and most fruitful when people come together with the intentions of both contributing to and becoming further informed by the communication experience. I am grateful for and inspired by the commitment of this particular community to engaged citizenship and community interaction. However, when the conversation digresses into ill- or narrowly informed bombast, then the effectiveness of the entire forum is compromised. It was for this reason that I suggested we all move on to a more productive topic.
I don't agree with your views on this particular issue, Don. I think it's safe to say that we would likely disagree about many things, and that we may well not even like each other as people if we were to meet in 3-D. What I know for sure is that I'm not going to change your mind about the interpretation of scripture or whether a minister's words behind a pulpit are subject to different ethical standards than his comments to the media...and that even if I did it would be in no way germane to the discussion at hand. I'll be happy to engage with you in different threads, but as far as I'm concerned I'm finished with this one.
Respectfully,
Courtney
Sabrina
04-01-2008, 09:45 AM
Hey Donc1955, this is an open discussion. Everyone on the board could respond to anything any of us says. Are you feeling ganged up on? Sometimes I've wondered why everyone was on my case for something, and then I realized maybe there's something I'm not seeing about myself, that I need to examine. For example, when I get more time, I will get you exact quotes from the pulpit on Falwell if someone else doesn't beet me to it.
So much for open-mindedness, I see. Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were interested in dialogue. I didn't realize you were really looking for a cheerleader, Courtney. My bad.
Don
courtneyarnold
04-01-2008, 10:58 AM
Sigh...here I go, Don, taking your bait. But I promise you that this is the last time. I don't really feel like spending my day reviewing old Falwell footage, so the following argument will have to do:
First, for the record, the quote mentioned earlier--"Modern U.S. Supreme Courts have raped the Constitution and raped the Christian faith and raped the churches by misinterpreting what the founders had in mind in the First Amendment of the Constitution... [W]e must fight against those radical minorities who are trying to remove God from our textbooks, Christ from our nation. We must never allow our children to forget that this is a Christian nation. We must take back what is rightfully ours."--was from a televised sermon in March 1993.
Beyond that, though, I really have to say that I feel you're playing dumb with me and trying to focus on semantics in order to divert attention from the fact that your "men of God" aren't quite as filled with Christian love as you'd like them to be. Falwell and Robertson have both made their careers as televangelists and media spokesmen for God. Therefore, their pulpit is not just a literal hunk of wood inside a building labeled "church," but also the very television programs, books, interviews, and so forth that they use to spread their good word. For short, we can call this "the media". If you really want to argue that members of their "flock" discriminate between statements made in the media and those made in a church...that Falwell's and Robertson's comments on the 700 Club are taken as the opinions of regular guys with no particular influence or responsibilities to the God they happen to speak for on Sundays...then I guess I'll have to ask you to provide supporting evidence in the form of Gallup polls or something sufficiently convincing. See how ludicrous that sounds?
Now. I'm. Done.
thewholetruth
04-01-2008, 07:33 PM
"Sigh...here I go, Don, taking your bait."
Such obvious contempt, so why even bother responding, Courtney? Why not just take your little ego and hit "delete" or better yet, join Edward in the "Ignore Club"?
The truth is that a) you said those men preached hate from the pulpit and b) I asked you for proof of that. You offered a bunch of quotes from the internet, but no YouTubes of them preaching hate from the pulpit. The quote you're mentioning has no hate in it, Courtney! LOL It's totally true! Minorities HAVE been trying to kick God out of the US for many years. They've been on a MISSION to rid our nation of any mention of God, and they've been working at it for years. THAT is hate directed at the Christian nation, ma'am.
Perhaps the reason for your contemptuous attitude toward me now is that you realize that your statement was doo-doo...untrue doo-doo.
I know, I know: Now. You're. Done. :wink:
Don
Sigh...here I go, Don, taking your bait. But I promise you that this is the last time. I don't really feel like spending my day reviewing old Falwell footage, so the following argument will have to do:
First, for the record, the quote mentioned earlier--"Modern U.S. Supreme Courts have raped the Constitution and raped the Christian faith and raped the churches by misinterpreting what the founders had in mind in the First Amendment of the Constitution... [W]e must fight against those radical minorities who are trying to remove God from our textbooks, Christ from our nation. We must never allow our children to forget that this is a Christian nation. We must take back what is rightfully ours."--was from a televised sermon in March 1993.
Beyond that, though, I really have to say that I feel you're playing dumb with me and trying to focus on semantics in order to divert attention from the fact that your "men of God" aren't quite as filled with Christian love as you'd like them to be. Falwell and Robertson have both made their careers as televangelists and media spokesmen for God. Therefore, their pulpit is not just a literal hunk of wood inside a building labeled "church," but also the very television programs, books, interviews, and so forth that they use to spread their good word. For short, we can call this "the media". If you really want to argue that members of their "flock" discriminate between statements made in the media and those made in a church...that Falwell's and Robertson's comments on the 700 Club are taken as the opinions of regular guys with no particular influence or responsibilities to the God they happen to speak for on Sundays...then I guess I'll have to ask you to provide supporting evidence in the form of Gallup polls or something sufficiently convincing. See how ludicrous that sounds?
Now. I'm. Done.
Braggi
04-01-2008, 08:14 PM
... Such obvious contempt, so why even bother responding, Courtney? Why not just take your little ego and hit "delete" or better yet, join Edward in the "Ignore Club"?
...
Don, why is it that I feel dirty after reading a post from you? Your arguments and your style seem about as far from the teachings of Christ as anything I've ever read.
... It's totally true! Minorities HAVE been trying to kick God out of the US for many years. They've been on a MISSION to rid our nation of any mention of God, and they've been working at it for years. THAT is hate directed at the Christian nation, ma'am.
...
I will take you on here. I challenge you, Don, to prove this is "... the Christian nation..." Please show that to be true by quoting the source documents you take that from. I know the Christian apologists have a long list, so you should be able to come with a few. BTW, can you say what document the US Constitution is based on?
And, please, can you identify the "Minorities" that have been trying to kick "God" out of the US for many years? I've never met one or even heard of one. I have heard of some atheists who would like to see "in God we Trust" removed from our coinage; a sentiment I agree with whole heartedly. And no, I'm not an atheist. I'm a very religious man. But even those atheists, as far as I know, aren't interested in preventing you from practicing your religion, or in kicking any religions out of the US. Nor do I see their efforts to get (as you say) "God" out of our government as particularly hateful. I think the hate is all yours. I see the separation as cleaning up both the Government and the religions.
So, please support your statement.
Meanwhile, I think I'll take a shower.
-Jeff
PS. Perhaps the moderator(s) would consider beginning a new thread here since we have moved quite far from the original topic.
Valley Oak
04-02-2008, 12:29 AM
Blub, blub. Blub, blub.
Edward
thewholetruth
04-02-2008, 05:47 AM
"Your arguments and your style seem about as far from the teachings of Christ as anything I've ever read."
Be more specific in your criticism, won't you? Generalities are typically just rocks with paper wrapped around them, Braggi. What comments that I've made do you take issue with?
"I will take you on here. I challenge you, Don, to prove this is "... the Christian nation..."
You misunderstood. LOL I was speaking specifically ABOUT the Christian nation in America, that is, just those who are Christian. I wasn't making a generality about the USA. I was saying that CHRISTIANS are under attack in America today, and it's okay with the PC crowd that this is taking place.
"Meanwhile, I think I'll take a shower."
TMI for me, Jeff. TMI... :wink:
Don
Don, why is it that I feel dirty after reading a post from you? Your arguments and your style seem about as far from the teachings of Christ as anything I've ever read.
I will take you on here. I challenge you, Don, to prove this is "... the Christian nation..." Please show that to be true by quoting the source documents you take that from. I know the Christian apologists have a long list, so you should be able to come with a few. BTW, can you say what document the US Constitution is based on?
And, please, can you identify the "Minorities" that have been trying to kick "God" out of the US for many years? I've never met one or even heard of one. I have heard of some atheists who would like to see "in God we Trust" removed from our coinage; a sentiment I agree with whole heartedly. And no, I'm not an atheist. I'm a very religious man. But even those atheists, as far as I know, aren't interested in preventing you from practicing your religion, or in kicking any religions out of the US. Nor do I see their efforts to get (as you say) "God" out of our government as particularly hateful. I think the hate is all yours. I see the separation as cleaning up both the Government and the religions.
So, please support your statement.
Meanwhile, I think I'll take a shower.
-Jeff
PS. Perhaps the moderator(s) would consider beginning a new thread here since we have moved quite far from the original topic.
thewholetruth
04-02-2008, 06:08 AM
"And, please, can you identify the "Minorities" that have been trying to kick "God" out of the US for many years? I've never met one or even heard of one. I have heard of some atheists who would like to see "in God we Trust" removed from our coinage; a sentiment I agree with whole heartedly."
You just identified one. You are in that minority, Jeff, as most Americans support KEEPING the references to God we have everywhere, including keeping prayer in school and the 10 Commandments on so many of our government buildings. Atheists are another minority group that have been hard at work for years trying to eliminate all references to God in America. And then there is the PC crowd, Jeff, who are a vast minority in America, praise God. The PC crowd is so amazingly codependent that they, like the ACLU, see fires everywhere they look (PC has become Politically Codependent now, btw).
"I think the hate is all yours."
Please show me specifically the statements I've made that you consider "hate", Jeff. Please be specific. Generalities are such a waste of everyone's time.
Thanks, Jeff.
Don
Don, why is it that I feel dirty after reading a post from you? Your arguments and your style seem about as far from the teachings of Christ as anything I've ever read.
I will take you on here. I challenge you, Don, to prove this is "... the Christian nation..." Please show that to be true by quoting the source documents you take that from. I know the Christian apologists have a long list, so you should be able to come with a few. BTW, can you say what document the US Constitution is based on?
And, please, can you identify the "Minorities" that have been trying to kick "God" out of the US for many years? I've never met one or even heard of one. I have heard of some atheists who would like to see "in God we Trust" removed from our coinage; a sentiment I agree with whole heartedly. And no, I'm not an atheist. I'm a very religious man. But even those atheists, as far as I know, aren't interested in preventing you from practicing your religion, or in kicking any religions out of the US. Nor do I see their efforts to get (as you say) "God" out of our government as particularly hateful. I think the hate is all yours. I see the separation as cleaning up both the Government and the religions.
So, please support your statement.
Meanwhile, I think I'll take a shower.
-Jeff
PS. Perhaps the moderator(s) would consider beginning a new thread here since we have moved quite far from the original topic.
Sabrina
04-02-2008, 09:51 AM
I think this guy doc1955 is clearly in the minority, especially in our community. I started to respond to some of his inflamitory remarks that are pushing my and others buttons about justice and fairness and democracy and upholding the constitution, etc. with numerous videos of the late Falwell and the still living Robertson and other evangelists, but I realize it's a waste of time on this guy Donc1955. (Donc1955 just look their names up on Youtube and you shall see many shocking comments by Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and many other far right evangelists) I think Edward is right to ignore him, Courtney's right to be done, now he's picking on Jeff. Jeff is clearly not in the minority. I think this guy is basically an Internet Troll as described by people some time ago on Wacco. The definition appears to no longer be in the archives, because I could not find it using the 'search'.
"And, please, can you identify the "Minorities" that have been trying to kick "God" out of the US for many years? I've never met one or even heard of one. I have heard of some atheists who would like to see "in God we Trust" removed from our coinage; a sentiment I agree with whole heartedly."
You just identified one. You are in that minority, Jeff, as most Americans support KEEPING the references to God we have everywhere, including keeping prayer in school and the 10 Commandments on so many of our government buildings. Atheists are another minority group that have been hard at work for years trying to eliminate all references to God in America. And then there is the PC crowd, Jeff, who are a vast minority in America, praise God. The PC crowd is so amazingly codependent that they, like the ACLU, see fires everywhere they look (PC has become Politically Codependent now, btw).
"I think the hate is all yours."
Please show me specifically the statements I've made that you consider "hate", Jeff. Please be specific. Generalities are such a waste of everyone's time.