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Zeno Swijtink
02-28-2008, 06:40 AM
This is a interesting change proposed in the Islamic interpretation of their sacred texts!

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https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7264903.stm

Turkey in Radical Revision of Islamic Texts
ROBERT PIGGOTT, Religious Affairs Correspondent - BBC News (U.K.)

Turkey is preparing to publish a document that represents a revolutionary reinterpretation of Islam - and a controversial and radical modernisation of the religion.

The country's powerful Department of Religious Affairs has commissioned a team of theologians at Ankara University to carry out a fundamental revision of the Hadith, the second most sacred text in Islam after the Koran.

The Hadith is a collection of thousands of sayings reputed to come from the Prophet Muhammad. As such, it is the principal guide for Muslims in interpreting the Koran and the source of the vast majority of Islamic law, or Sharia.

But the Turkish state has come to see the Hadith as having an often negative influence on a society it is in a hurry to modernise, and believes it responsible for obscuring the original values of Islam.

It says that a significant number of the sayings were never uttered by Muhammad, and even some that were need now to be reinterpreted.

'Reformation'

Commentators say the very theology of Islam is being reinterpreted in order to effect a radical renewal of the religion.

"This is kind of akin to the Christian Reformation. Not exactly the same, but... it's changing the theological foundations of [the] religion," says Fadi Hakura, Turkey expert, from Chatham House in London

Its supporters say the spirit of logic and reason inherent in Islam at its foundation 1,400 years ago are being rediscovered. Some believe it could represent the beginning of a reformation in the religion.

"Some messages ban women from travelling without their husband's permission... But this isn't a religious ban. It came about because it simply wasn't safe for a woman to travel alone," observes Prof Mehmet Gormez, Hadith of the Department of Religious Affairs.

Turkish officials have been reticent about the revision of the Hadith until now, aware of the controversy it is likely to cause among traditionalist Muslims, but they have spoken to the BBC about the project, and their ambitious aims for it.

The forensic examination of the Hadiths has taken place in Ankara University's School of Theology.

An adviser to the project, Felix Koerner, says some of the sayings - also known individually as "hadiths" - can be shown to have been invented hundreds of years after the Prophet Muhammad died, to serve the purposes of contemporary society.

"Unfortunately you can even justify through alleged hadiths, the Muslim - or pseudo-Muslim - practice of female genital mutilation," he says.

"You can find messages which say 'that is what the Prophet ordered us to do'. But you can show historically how they came into being, as influences from other cultures, that were then projected onto Islamic tradition." Many Hadiths relate to life in the Middle East 1,400 years ago and are no longer relevant.

The argument is that Islamic tradition has been gradually hijacked by various - often conservative - cultures, seeking to use the religion for various forms of social control.

Leaders of the Hadith project say successive generations have embellished the text, attributing their political aims to the Prophet Muhammad himself.

Revolutionary

Turkey is intent on sweeping away that "cultural baggage" and returning to a form of Islam it claims accords with its original values and those of the Prophet.

But this is where the revolutionary nature of the work becomes apparent. Even some sayings accepted as being genuinely spoken by Muhammad have been altered and reinterpreted.

Prof Mehmet Gormez, a senior official in the Department of Religious Affairs and an expert on the Hadith, gives a telling example.

"There are some messages that ban women from travelling for three days or more without their husband's permission and they are genuine.

"But this isn't a religious ban. It came about because in the Prophet's time it simply wasn't safe for a woman to travel alone like that. But as time has passed, people have made permanent what was only supposed to be a temporary ban for safety reasons."

The project justifies such bold interference in the 1,400-year-old content of the Hadith by rigorous academic research.

Prof Gormez points out that in another speech, the Prophet said "he longed for the day when a woman might travel long distances alone".

So, he argues, it is clear what the Prophet's goal was.

Original spirit

Yet, until now, the ban has remained in the text, and helps to restrict the free movement of some Muslim women to this day.

There's also violence against women within families, including sexual harassment... This does not exist in Islam... we have to explain that to them says, Hulya Koc, a "vaize"

As part of its aggressive programme of renewal, Turkey has given theological training to 450 women, and appointed them as senior imams called "vaizes".

They have been given the task of explaining the original spirit of Islam to remote communities in Turkey's vast interior.

One of the women, Hulya Koc, looked out over a sea of headscarves at a town meeting in central Turkey and told the women of the equality, justice and human rights guaranteed by an accurate interpretation of the Koran - one guided and confirmed by the revised Hadith.

She says that, at the moment, Islam is being widely used to justify the violent suppression of women.

"There are honour killings," she explains.

"We hear that some women are being killed when they marry the wrong person or run away with someone they love.

"There's also violence against women within families, including sexual harassment by uncles and others. This does not exist in Islam... we have to explain that to them."

'New Islam'

According to Fadi Hakura, Turkey is doing nothing less than recreating Islam - changing it from a religion whose rules must be obeyed, to one designed to serve the needs of people in a modern secular democracy.

He says that to achieve it, the state is fashioning a new Islam.

Significantly, the "Ankara School" of theologians working on the new Hadith have been using Western critical techniques and philosophy.

They have also taken an even bolder step - rejecting a long-established rule of Muslim scholars that later (and often more conservative) texts override earlier ones.

"You have to see them as a whole," says Fadi Hakura.

"You can't say, for example, that the verses of violence override the verses of peace. This is used a lot in the Middle East, this kind of ideology.

"I cannot impress enough how fundamental [this change] is."

scorpiomoon
02-28-2008, 12:18 PM
Hey Zeno this is fascinating to me these ideas. I cannot recall how i stumbled across the information regarding islamic texts. However it seems that there were scholars evolving and studying islam in germany from well before 1880 on into wwII era and evidentally they had amassed many seperate copies and interpretations of the Koran dated and attributed to different authors. Somewhere along the line the Gestapo got involved and these scholars while gathering info in North Africa and Turkey and other Islamic regions (photographed translated and saved!) these older versions of sacred texts were mostly held by the elites within the culture and not passed to the masses. Anyway more has been saved of this information than previously thought. Some supposedly destoyed translations have turned up.

No the Koran did not fall out of the sky and neither did the Bible. AMAZING!! All of a sudden there is hope for rational interpretation of HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS bravo.
Hopefully when scholars do come forward they will not be "Salmon Rushdied" not have a price on their head for being sane or intelligent. Anyway, thanks for the revving
me up. Interesting I will go to the link when I have an extra minute. If initially a law was made for a reason then later it is assumed to be another thing, isn't that interesting
.
Like "the rule of thumb" you know, something held widely as correct. This was a law. A man cannot beat his wife with a stick any larger than his thumb. See how things get transmuted over time. a-HA!!
I say. What a change. I would say women back in those days were more apt to look for small hands or thumbs for reason of self-preservation!!! Teasing of course but, this small idiomatic expression today came from a serious matter centuries ago. THese two versions or ideas today dont resemble each other at all. so the many books of the bible or the Koran, all slightly different all based on men and their investment and involvement in certain ideas!!

Hummingbear
02-28-2008, 12:39 PM
Great. Now another umpteen-hundred-million people will have something new to fight over.

When England decided to reform its church in the 16th century, it began a series of civil wars which even now, almost 500 years later, still cause people to commit violence (i.e. in Ireland). It may be an improvement over being stuck in the dim past, but it won't enlighten everyone anytime soon, and is bound to provoke some ugly backlash in the short run.

Well, good luck to the Turks.

Braggi
02-28-2008, 01:22 PM
Check this out: https://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i5ajtNJ0qTTRMBSFpYngMOjrmDbQ

scorpiomoon
03-04-2008, 11:26 AM
I am really interesting in getting to these provided links but something just occured to me, if the Islamists begin fighting among each other about the semantics and origins of their religious texts, then this could obviously work as a "divide and conquer" scheme. While they are arguing about Mohammed, we can steal the oil, maybe they won't notice. Also they will kill a few of their own, so there will be fewer left for us to kill. This is a very interesting & very OLD tactic, but it works over and over, in almost every situation. I for one had an ancestor Burned to the stake and I believe they beheaded him too, put his head on London Bridge for his "protestant" translation of several passages from a "Catholic" bible. Which comes first? THe burning or be-heading?? I am not sure. I do know this is when my ancestors fled England

Lenny
03-05-2008, 06:03 AM
Interesting read. As I understand it, poorly, for the greatest number of Islamists, the area of Egypt is their geographical think tank or intellectual center. Turkey is simply trying to "appease", in this geo-political writings, in order to enter the European Union.
As for the Germans in the 19th century "finding" new meanings in the Holy Koran, they were doing the same things with the Christian Bible. We are still suffering this with the "Jesus Movement" stating "this was said, but that was not said" based on deconstruction of the language.
For me, it's all hogwash. If it ain't written in your heart, then words on paper won't do too much good; well except for maybe starting fights and wars and hard feelings.
What's in your heart? No, wait, I mean when you get thwarted..........not when you are sitting alone in your place.........like when someone.......oh, never mind. :Yinyangv:

Zeno Swijtink
03-11-2008, 03:51 PM
TURKISH SCHOLARS AIM TO MODERNIZE ISLAM'S HADITH
Theologians are revisiting the collections of the prophet Muhammad's sayings that Muslims use as a guideline for daily life.

By Yigal Schleifer | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor
from the March 11, 2008 edition

Reporter Yigal Schleifer discusses Turkey's attempts to reestablish its place in the Muslim world.
ANKARA, TURKEY - For centuries, the Hadith – a collection of the words and deeds of the prophet Muhammad – has guided Muslims in their daily lives and served as a basis for Islamic jurisprudence, offering direction on everything from hygiene to war.

The Hadith deals with events that took place some 1,400 years ago, but an ambitious Turkish project is aiming to reinterpret them to create a collection addressing modern-day concerns and stripping out elements that many theologians say contradict the Koran and Muhammad's teachings.

Observers here say the project is part of a continuing effort by a growing segment of Turkish society to reconcile faith and modernity – a struggle being played out among Muslims worldwide, from African immigrants in Paris to young Arabs in Saudi Arabia.

cont. at https://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0311/p01s03-woeu.html

Lenny
03-11-2008, 06:52 PM
Brave lads, they! Some of those folks will declare warrants for their death and then go out and collect!
But I must wonder, in that our media tells me that Saudi Arabia created the Wahabi school about the same time the Brits became involved over there, setting Kind Saud up. Kind of makes one wonder, eh? And that the Wahabi notion empowers the Saudis to keep and maintain order within, and to go out and convert others, or die trying. If memory serves, this Wahbi fellow was some 17th century not-so-hot-writer-guy but now his stuff is being "practiced" world wide, and these Turks are giving alternatives in this article. Or at least until they're decapitated. And folks claim we are intolerant!:2cents:


TURKISH SCHOLARS AIM TO MODERNIZE ISLAM'S HADITH
Theologians are revisiting the collections of the prophet Muhammad's sayings that Muslims use as a guideline for daily life.

By Yigal Schleifer | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor
from the March 11, 2008 edition

Reporter Yigal Schleifer discusses Turkey's attempts to reestablish its place in the Muslim world.
ANKARA, TURKEY - For centuries, the Hadith – a collection of the words and deeds of the prophet Muhammad – has guided Muslims in their daily lives and served as a basis for Islamic jurisprudence, offering direction on everything from hygiene to war.

The Hadith deals with events that took place some 1,400 years ago, but an ambitious Turkish project is aiming to reinterpret them to create a collection addressing modern-day concerns and stripping out elements that many theologians say contradict the Koran and Muhammad's teachings.

Observers here say the project is part of a continuing effort by a growing segment of Turkish society to reconcile faith and modernity – a struggle being played out among Muslims worldwide, from African immigrants in Paris to young Arabs in Saudi Arabia.

cont. at https://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0311/p01s03-woeu.html