The price of fuel [Archive]

mykil

02-17-2008, 12:14 PM

Back in the early seventies I had the opportunity to hang out with a guy that told me some wild, yet believable stories, of endless power from the a source that was just way out of our reach. I tended to listen and was enlightened beyond what they might have been telling the public even in those dayz. This endless power came from a beam of energy 24/7 streaming via a satellite directly shining down from the sun. They even had computer programs that would turn off the such a devise if a commercial airplane or any other aircraft traveled too close, even a self destruct button for extreme emergencies. I was impressed and thought nothing too much about it when I ask why we can’t use such a thing like the sun for this endless power. TI was laughed at, he said it would never be used EVER as long as we still had oil. Back in the day when he was telling me this story it was like something right out of star wars, and even corresponded with the timing of star wars. Yet as I have been thinking if this person, whom by the way went on to develop out first handheld communications systems we still use today, I run into another guy. About the same age yet remind you this is years later. Oh yeah he is still with us. Tells me stories about building high towers for people all over the world. This is what he did for a living till he retired many years back. But he personally witnessed the power of the sun and a few mirrors that blew my mind just listening to him tell the story. On a mountaintop back in the eighties in Arizona, he built a couple of huge towers for government research and was invited to the show. A huge satellite configuration full of mirrors focused on a chunk of metal about a foot square. It was disaggregated in less than a second.
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WE have this power yet still are not allowed to use it, just out of pure corruption of our governments. How in this day and age can we the people get any of this power? How can we make our government use this endless and literally pollution free power? They have the technology and it has to be way better than it was in the seventies. Yet no one will let US have it!

Valley Oak

02-17-2008, 12:35 PM

Dear Mykil,

I don't know the answers to your questions.

I can, however, insist on what I have already said in my previous post in this thread: I am now driving around in a solution that protects our environment, offers us a political alternative, and saves you a bundle of money. In short, we turn garbage into gold because we use reclaimed restaurant oil, which the restaurants have to pay good money to 'renderers' to haul away to the landfill or somewhere else. We save close to whatever amount of money you and everyone else pay at the pump.

Here is a draft for a short summary of what we, the Biofuels Research Cooperative, do:

"The Biofuels Research Cooperative, aka Veggieoil Coop, is an organization of
folks who have, for approximately six years, been conducting alternative
fuels research, primarily by running diesel vehicles on waste vegetable oil.
We intend to help pioneer the conversion of vehicle transportation to earth
sustaining methods that do not rely on the use of sequestered carbon, such
as petroleum. Using waste vegetable oil for fuel is part of that solution,
by diverting it from it¹s trip to the landfill, and instead using it to
power cars. Our membership maintains a depot, where we filter used
vegetable oil and make it usable to run in vehicles. We also have members
who participate in occasional seminars or educational events to make the
public more aware of the possibilities of alternative fuel transportation."

Peace through grease,

Edward

Back in the early seventies I had the opportunity to hang out with a guy that told me some wild, yet believable stories, of endless power from the a source that was just way out of our reach. I tended to listen and was enlightened beyond what they might have been telling the public even in those dayz. This endless power came from a beam of energy 24/7 streaming via a satellite directly shining down from the sun. They even had computer programs that would turn off the such a devise if a commercial airplane or any other aircraft traveled too close, even a self destruct button for extreme emergencies. I was impressed and thought nothing too much about it when I ask why we can’t use such a thing like the sun for this endless power. TI was laughed at, he said it would never be used EVER as long as we still had oil. Back in the day when he was telling me this story it was like something right out of star wars, and even corresponded with the timing of star wars. Yet as I have been thinking if this person, whom by the way went on to develop out first handheld communications systems we still use today, I run into another guy. About the same age yet remind you this is years later. Oh yeah he is still with us. Tells me stories about building high towers for people all over the world. This is what he did for a living till he retired many years back. But he personally witnessed the power of the sun and a few mirrors that blew my mind just listening to him tell the story. On a mountaintop back in the eighties in Arizona, he built a couple of huge towers for government research and was invited to the show. A huge satellite configuration full of mirrors focused on a chunk of metal about a foot square. It was disaggregated in less than a second.
<o:p></o:p>
WE have this power yet still are not allowed to use it, just out of pure corruption of our governments. How in this day and age can we the people get any of this power? How can we make our government use this endless and literally pollution free power? They have the technology and it has to be way better than it was in the seventies. Yet no one will let US have it!

Zeno Swijtink

02-17-2008, 02:03 PM

I had some work interns here from Sweden for a few months. They said that fuel in Sweden is going for about $5 a liter. They were amazed at the huge size of the average American auto, banging and belching down the road. I think that in many respects Sweden may be the future of the U.S.

https://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/38/81/23378138.jpg

https://www.theequitykicker.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/man-carrying-dollar-sign.jpg

mykil

02-17-2008, 02:19 PM

So yoyu have not heard the news today??? Bio-fuels are doing more ahrm to the enviroment than gas??? hmmmm, it was a good idea but its not the answer dude!!!

Dear Mykil,

I don't know the answers to your questions.

I can, however, insist on what I have already said in my previous post in this thread: I am now driving around in a solution that protects our environment, offers us a political alternative, and saves you a bundle of money. In short, we turn garbage into gold because we use reclaimed restaurant oil, which the restaurants have to pay good money to 'renderers' to haul away to the landfill or somewhere else. We save close to whatever amount of money you and everyone else pay at the pump.

Here is a draft for a short summary of what we, the Biofuels Research Cooperative, do:

"The Biofuels Research Cooperative, aka Veggieoil Coop, is an organization of
folks who have, for approximately six years, been conducting alternative
fuels research, primarily by running diesel vehicles on waste vegetable oil.
We intend to help pioneer the conversion of vehicle transportation to earth
sustaining methods that do not rely on the use of sequestered carbon, such
as petroleum. Using waste vegetable oil for fuel is part of that solution,
by diverting it from it¹s trip to the landfill, and instead using it to
power cars. Our membership maintains a depot, where we filter used
vegetable oil and make it usable to run in vehicles. We also have members
who participate in occasional seminars or educational events to make the
public more aware of the possibilities of alternative fuel transportation."

Peace through grease,

Edward

Valley Oak

02-17-2008, 04:07 PM

Please show the reference for this news.

Thanks,

Edward

So yoyu have not heard the news today??? Bio-fuels are doing more ahrm to the enviroment than gas??? hmmmm, it was a good idea but its not the answer dude!!!

mykil

02-17-2008, 04:14 PM

It's benn a boiling for a while now Edward, THe latest report was in the press democrat jsut like three or four dayz ago, look it up. I dont think it was more than a week gone by since I read this there!

mykil

02-17-2008, 04:35 PM

https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080209/NEWS/802090334/1033/NEWS01

It's benn a boiling for a while now Edward, THe latest report was in the press democrat jsut like three or four dayz ago, look it up. I dont think it was more than a week gone by since I read this there!

MsTerry

02-17-2008, 05:00 PM

HAHA Edward,

What are you going pump now?
I went to town on the bike today!

https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080209/NEWS/802090334/1033/NEWS01

Valley Oak

02-17-2008, 05:04 PM

Thanks, Mykil. Here are three Press Democrat links that I found on this:

https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080209/NEWS/802090334

https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/apps/pbcs.dll/search?crit=biofuels

https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080208/WIRE/802080354

The articles in the Press Democrat's website say that the studies done on making biofuels on a large, worldwide scale will result in the clearing of many, very large plots of land all over the planet, and it is this preparation for cultivating biofuels that would have a negative effect on the environment. But the studies do not say that the direct emissions from burning biofuels has a negative environmental impact.

Therefore, my recycled restaurant oil is still a very good thing indeed, one that I will continue to use as fuel in our two veggie cars. Remember something else, the vegetable oil produced for restaurants is an industry that has been around for many, many years and its intention is the restaurant industry, not biofuels. If the mass cultivation of biofuels never takes place, as the studies seem to suggest that it shouldn't, the thousands of gallons of waste vegetable oil produced everyday will continue to exist and continue to be thrown away as garbage. The consumption of waste vegetable oil is much less harmful (if at all) for the environment than petroleum fuels.

Thanks again,

Edward

It's benn a boiling for a while now Edward, THe latest report was in the press democrat jsut like three or four dayz ago, look it up. I dont think it was more than a week gone by since I read this there!

Braggi

02-17-2008, 05:20 PM

the cheaper alternatives will materialize as long as the prices go up.
necessity is the mother of invention

But it hasn't because as a culture, and a poor excuse for a culture at that, we have lacked the political will to do anything better, so we choke in our poison and filth.

The prices go up and we follow along like the sheeple we are. We just adjust rather than improve our appetites.

We need a leader who will inspire us and lead us away from oil because as a people we lack the will to tell our leaders what they should do. Such a leader risks assassination either in the press or in reality, of course.

There are so many barriers, most of them corrupt political ones, but it is really cultural spiritual weakness that hinders us.

We lack the vision.

-Jeff

Braggi

02-17-2008, 05:21 PM

... If the mass cultivation of biofuels never takes place, as the studies seem to suggest that it shouldn't, the thousands of gallons of waste vegetable oil produced everyday will continue to exist and continue to be thrown away as garbage. The consumption of waste vegetable oil is much less harmful (if at all) for the environment than petroleum fuels.

Thanks again,

Edward

Well said, Edward. You beat me to the punch.

-Jeff

mykil

02-17-2008, 05:53 PM

I see on the average about two hundred or so veggie fuel cars a year. I see these cars running and up close, they back right up to me for me to load them with the product I sell. On a good day, I can tell you which restaurant they got their oil from just from the smell they give off. Along with the unmistakable black-smoke just like the diesel car. You can really tell what was being fried in that oil, not latterly what restaurant but what was being cooked for sure. Be it donuts, burgers and fries or the worst is the fish. Man the fish restaurant oils and definitely the smelliest. For the last few years I have pretty much toyed with the idea of going veggie. Then winter comes around, I see the cars and my mind clears from this illusion of getting a veggie vehicle. The idea is a great one if it is the free oil thingy you are going for. In the long run I fear it is no better than drilling holes in the earth and raping the land. Algae does give off the most usable oil of all and is not a bad source, I can’t imagine the whole central Cali damming up and making ponds like rice in order to grow algae thou. The sun is where it’s at and the sooner the better!!!

MsTerry

02-17-2008, 09:48 PM

If the mass cultivation of biofuels never takes place, as the studies seem to suggest that it shouldn't, the thousands of gallons of waste vegetable oil produced everyday will continue to exist and continue to be thrown away as garbage.
Are you sure about that?
I believe that some of that oil is being re-used

The consumption of waste vegetable oil is much less harmful (if at all) for the environment than petroleum fuels.
this statement is like comparing Hitler with Bush.
Who is worse? well that depends on where you live!
Burning veggie oil still adds to global warming and air pollution

MsTerry

02-17-2008, 10:02 PM

But it hasn't because as a culture, and a poor excuse for a culture at that, we have lacked the political will to do anything better, so we choke in our poison and filth.
Yes, that is how it looks, but sometimes it got toget worse before it gets better

The prices go up and we follow along like the sheeple we are. We just adjust rather than improve our appetites.Yes our species evolves! LOL

We need a leader who will inspire us and lead us away from oil because as a people we lack the will to tell our leaders what they should do. Such a leader risks assassination either in the press or in reality, of course. I agree.
Will you run? I'll vote for you!

There are so many barriers, most of them corrupt political ones, but it is really cultural spiritual weakness that hinders us.I would like you to eleborate on the "cultural spiritual weakness that hinders us", before I say that I don't agree

We lack the visionNO, we lack the experience of higher prices, ($10 a Gallon), close quarters, cramped cities and narrow streets like they have in Europe for example.
eg. the cars in EU are smaller, use less gas and can make a 180 in one turn in their kind of streets!

Valley Oak

02-17-2008, 10:16 PM

Almost all of the waste vegetable oil is thrown away. Do you know in what other applications the very small amount you are referring to is being used for? A couple of years ago, the California State Attorney General fined a 'renderer' (a company that collects and disposes of restaurant oil) almost one million dollars for dumping WVO into a creek or river. The traditional corporate mentality is not getting it and they had to get hit with a walloping penalty. Renderers don't give a shit about the environment; they are doing this job for the money and nothing more.

Hitler and Bush? No, not by a long shot. Burning veggie is very, very clean and that's a fact. If you put petroleum on a scale where it is 100% pollution, then veggie oil would range somewhere between 1 and 3%. With numbers that good, you are hard pressed to find a viable alternative. Care to try and find one? Rejection alone is not enough. We have to find an alternative. Imagine the world half a century from now; you might still be alive to see it and it won't be a pretty sight. Even if we have enough petroleum to last us another 100 years that is still a big challenge to find some new sources that will be able to adequately substitute the contemporary use of petroleum today.

Where do you get your facts, anyway? Please do your homework:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_vegetable_oil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greasecar

www.joshtickell.com

I have a question for you: When the world runs out of petroleum in the next 50 years, what realistic alternative for transportation energy will we have? Think about it. A lot folks are doing that right now. So please give it some serious thought. It's not enough to simply reject an idea (a proven one at that); you have to come up with an answer and that's not easy.

Edward

[quote=Valley Oak;
Are you sure about that?
I believe that some of that oil is being re-used

this statement is like comparing Hitler with Bush.
Who is worse? well that depends on where you live!
Burning veggie oil still adds to global warming and air pollution

mykil

02-17-2008, 10:56 PM

In another 100 years??? I think you might have ruffled his feathers their Mizz Terry, In another 100 years the population will be enormous. We won’t be able to plant things for fuel. Food will be number uno! Granted Edward, no one here thinks you are doing the wrong thing in running around town in your cool little veggie powered Mercedes. The fact is we can’t go that way all the way. After there is enough to use up all the restaurants and chip factories in the world, which is close already at this point, growing more for fuel is not a good idea. The source you seek is the solar energy from the sun plain and simple. If we don’t start using the solar trip we will all die!

[quote=Valley Oak;50179]Almost all of the waste vegetable oil is thrown away. Do you know in what other applications the very small amount you are referring to is being used for? A couple of years ago, the California State Attorney General fined a 'renderer' (a company that collects and disposes of restaurant oil) almost one million dollars for dumping WVO into a creek or river. The traditional corporate mentality is not getting it and they had to get hit with a walloping penalty. Renderers don't give a shit about the environment; they are doing this job for the money and nothing more.

Hitler and Bush? No, not by a long shot. Burning veggie is very, very clean and that's a fact. If you put petroleum on a scale where it is 100% pollution, then veggie oil would range somewhere between 1 and 3%. With numbers that good, you are hard pressed to find a viable alternative. Care to try and find one? Rejection alone is not enough. We have to find an alternative. Imagine the world half a century from now; you might still be alive to see it and it won't be a pretty sight. Even if we have enough petroleum to last us another 100 years that is still a big challenge to find some new sources that will be able to adequately substitute the contemporary use of petroleum today.

Where do you get your facts, anyway? Please do your homework:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_vegetable_oil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greasecar

www.joshtickell.com (https://www.joshtickell.com)

I have a question for you: When the world runs out of petroleum in the next 50 years, what realistic alternative for transportation energy will we have? Think about it. A lot folks are doing that right now. So please give it some serious thought. It's not enough to simply reject an idea (a proven one at that); you have to come up with an answer and that's not easy.

Edward

Valley Oak

02-17-2008, 11:47 PM

The great majority of WVO is unused. Full use of all WVO (restaurants, bottling companies, etc) would substitute between 5 and 15% of the present day consumption of petroleum. WVO alone cannot be the answer, even if we were to drastically reduce our total consumption of hydrocarbons by 50%

Yes, Mykil, I agree with you that the sun is the original and the best source of energy because that's where it all came from to begin with, including the energy in WVO. But we need the technology and the political will and the public awareness. We can't move this wealthiest of societies towards a solution with oil men in power in the White House.

If we could tap into solar energy for all of our energy needs then that would definitely be the ultimate solution. But how? And all applications? How?

Edward

In another 100 years??? I think you might have ruffled his feathers their Mizz Terry, In another 100 years the population will be enormous. We won’t be able to plant things for fuel. Food will be number uno! Granted Edward, no one here thinks you are doing the wrong thing in running around town in your cool little veggie powered Mercedes. The fact is we can’t go that way all the way. After there is enough to use up all the restaurants and chip factories in the world, which is close already at this point, growing more for fuel is not a good idea. The source you seek is the solar energy from the sun plain and simple. If we don’t start using the solar trip we will all die!

[quote=Valley Oak;50179]Almost all of the waste vegetable oil is thrown away. Do you know in what other applications the very small amount you are referring to is being used for? A couple of years ago, the California State Attorney General fined a 'renderer' (a company that collects and disposes of restaurant oil) almost one million dollars for dumping WVO into a creek or river. The traditional corporate mentality is not getting it and they had to get hit with a walloping penalty. Renderers don't give a shit about the environment; they are doing this job for the money and nothing more.

Hitler and Bush? No, not by a long shot. Burning veggie is very, very clean and that's a fact. If you put petroleum on a scale where it is 100% pollution, then veggie oil would range somewhere between 1 and 3%. With numbers that good, you are hard pressed to find a viable alternative. Care to try and find one? Rejection alone is not enough. We have to find an alternative. Imagine the world half a century from now; you might still be alive to see it and it won't be a pretty sight. Even if we have enough petroleum to last us another 100 years that is still a big challenge to find some new sources that will be able to adequately substitute the contemporary use of petroleum today.

Where do you get your facts, anyway? Please do your homework:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_vegetable_oil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greasecar

www.joshtickell.com (https://www.joshtickell.com)

I have a question for you: When the world runs out of petroleum in the next 50 years, what realistic alternative for transportation energy will we have? Think about it. A lot folks are doing that right now. So please give it some serious thought. It's not enough to simply reject an idea (a proven one at that); you have to come up with an answer and that's not easy.

Edward

Dark Shadows

02-18-2008, 01:40 AM

Edward,

I am very interested in converting my vehicle to the veggie oil solution. How much did it end up costing you to convert and what is your weekly cost to run your vehicle on the oil? How do I get started? I have very limited time to do the research required, for a good reason that I won't go into right now. But trust me, its not trivial. If you could let me know what the procedure is, or even just point me in the right direction and let me know how much money I should expect to spend, I'd really be happy.

Thanks.

How about driving around with reclaimed veggie oil?

My wife and I own two veggie cars. We get used cooking oil from restaurants and bottling plants. Doesn't cost us anything.

However, the purchase of an old beater, diesel Mercedes and then converting it is a cost but it amortizes in less than two years time. After that, you can spend the rest of your driving time laughing your head off every time you pass a gasoline station.

This is good for the environment, good for politics (both foreign and domestic), and absolutely sublime for your pocket book!

www.vegoilcoop.org (https://www.vegoilcoop.org)

Edward

Zeno Swijtink

02-18-2008, 05:54 AM

Tars, that used to be my opinion. However, the more prices have gone up the more we use. So price is not the answer unless there are cheaper alternatives. So far not.

-Jeff

"In California, the nation's biggest fuel market, drivers have been burning through less gasoline than they had the year before for six straight quarters. From July through September, the most recent data available, Californians used 46.2 million fewer gallons, or 1.1% less than in the year-earlier period."

This may not seem much, but it does not consider population increase.

******

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-gasdemand18feb18,0,6838933,full.story

ENERGY
Fewer drivers over a barrel

By Ronald D. White, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
February 18, 2008

Sun Valley legal secretary James Eric Freedner got fed up with high gasoline prices.

He put his 2003 Toyota Tacoma truck in the garage and switched to a Honda Nighthawk motorcycle for weekday commutes to Beverly Hills. He stopped driving to the beach on weekends and cut back on trips to Hanford and Fresno to check on properties he manages. He began grouping errands into one trip each Saturday.

The trade-offs Freedner has made in the last year haven't necessarily made him happy, but they've reduced his gasoline consumption nearly 50%. And although he admits to feeling jittery traveling freeways on the Nighthawk, all the changes are permanent, unless gas returns to $2.50 a gallon.

"The price was just eating up what I earned," said Freedner, 57. "This is the best thing I can do to make ends meet."

Americans are getting serious about using less gasoline, confounding some economists who have argued that most people can't reduce their driving much because they have to get to and from work and make those necessary trips such as shopping and chauffeuring their children around.

The truth is more complicated, according to some energy experts: When the price reaches a certain threshold or the driving reaches a peak point of aggravation, people are willing to give up personal space and independence.

"There is an awful lot of what might be called discretionary driving," said Edward Leamer, an economist with the UCLA Anderson Forecast. "Raise the price high enough, and you will see that there is a lot more that people can do."

For some, the next drop in prices won't be enough to send them back to their old driving habits.

"The trend will be toward more lasting conservation and longer-term savings if they are not just reacting to prices and have instead made a decision to change," said Bruce Bullock, executive director of the Maguire Energy Institute at Southern Methodist University's Cox School of Business in Dallas.

In California, the nation's biggest fuel market, drivers have been burning through less gasoline than they had the year before for six straight quarters. From July through September, the most recent data available, Californians used 46.2 million fewer gallons, or 1.1% less than in the year-earlier period.

Consider ridership figures for the Bay Area Rapid Transit system.

For seven years, nothing was able to displace Oct. 4, 2000, when the San Francisco Giants and Oakland Athletics baseball teams were gunning for a pennant. BART set a single-day ridership record with 374,900 passengers.

That peak was eclipsed in 2007, and has been beaten so often that it no longer ranks among the top 10 ridership days. The new record, 389,400, was set Aug. 31.

Ridership on the buses and trains run by the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority dropped overall in 2007, but officials said that was the result of a fare increase in July. Before that, boardings had been on the rise.

The MTA's Orange Line has seen daily ridership grow from just under 15,500 in 2005 to nearly 21,500 last year.

In its annual state of the region report, released in December, the Southern California Assn. of Governments noted that the share of commuters who drove alone had dropped in 2005 and 2006, from 76.7% to 74.1%, reversing steady increases from 2000 through 2004.

With gasoline prices doubling since 2003, motorists nationwide are conserving fuel by taking fewer trips, driving slower and paying premiums for the most fuel-efficient vehicles, the Congressional Budget Office said in a recent report.

Kimra Haskell, a mathematics professor at USC, began bicycling to work six months ago.

She had many reasons. Sometimes she felt a shooting pain in her driving leg. She wanted to make a statement about the Iraq war and U.S. dependence on foreign oil. The California lifestyle of driving everywhere for everything -- even to exercise at a gym -- had left her too dependent on her aging 1993 Honda Accord.

She made her trial run from Eagle Rock to USC on a clunky, old Schwinn mountain bike. On the return trip of the 26-mile ride, uphill, she was ready to abandon the bike by the side of the road. But she persevered, bought a sleek, Italian Bianchi Volpe bicycle and is building up to cycling to work five days a week.

Gas prices were only part of the story, Haskell, 43, said. "It was mainly the effects on my health, on the time it took out of my life, the stress of dealing with the traffic."

Antipollution regulations are altering habits, too. California's air-quality rules demand that employers with 250 or more workers takes steps to reach a 1.5-1 passenger-vehicle ratio, or about 34 cars for every 50 employees.

At the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in La Cañada Flintridge, there are perks for ride sharing. About 8,000 full-time and contract employees work on a campus with only 4,000 parking spaces, said John Miranda, JPL's employee transportation coordinator.

Drive to JPL alone, and you'll have to walk a few blocks from an off-site parking lot, Miranda said. Sharing the ride with one person earns an unassigned space on the JPL campus, he said. Three or more to a car hits the jackpot: an assigned parking space on campus.

One who didn't have to be sold was Shadan Ardalan, 39, who serves as navigator of the Cassini space probe's mission to Saturn. Mornings and evenings, Ardalan navigates a van pool in a leased Ford, taking co-workers to and from the Redondo Beach area.

"Driving alone was a huge stress, a lot of wear and tear on the psyche," Ardalan said.

Bad news at the pump has been good for business at Troy, Mich.-based VPSI Inc., which leases six- to 14-passenger vans to businesses, governments and transit agencies.

The company charges $900 to $1,200 a month for the vans, which allow employees to leave their cars at home. Employees with good safety records serve as drivers for their pools.

After averaging between 5% and 6% annual growth for much of its history, Chief Executive Jeff Henning said, VPSI has grown 10% or more on average nationally since 2005. Southern California had the fastest expansion in 2007 at 13%, although it takes extra to entice Southlanders.

Although most of the vans leased by VPSI customers in other parts of the nation are utilitarian at best, California van pools tend to carry more expensive accouterments, such as high-backed, individually reclining seats, said Jim Appleby, VPSI's manager for Southern California.

"It takes a little bit more to get people out of their cars here," Appleby said.

Sometimes, the answer can be as easy as changing work hours and offering an incentive.

To encourage carpooling, Hilario Navarro, president of 36-employee Bonanza Foods & Provisions Inc. in Vernon, rearranged schedules of six workers who lived in West Covina. In January, he handed out $100 prepaid gasoline cards to the first two drivers of the month.

Now, there are often just two vehicles on the road to work from West Covina, with three riders each.

But less gasoline guzzling isn't the only fringe benefit, Navarro said. It has changed the climate of his workplace as well.

"They arrive happier now," he said, "with more energy."

[email protected]
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Valley Oak

02-18-2008, 07:51 AM

About $8,000.

Cheaper if you are lucky and a lot cheaper if you are very lucky. A friend of mine managed to buy an old, old Mercedes for only $500 and it runs rough but that is truly the exception. Let's say it's going to be about $2,000 to $4,000 for an old beater (or less), approximately +$2,000 for the conversion (or maybe more), and about another $2,000 for the membership fees, auto repairs (because it's an old car), various supplies, and incidentals (which will happen). Do not make the mistake of buying a car that doesn't work at all or needs a new engine. Someone I know did this and they never got around to finishing the work because it was too costly and they never converted. If you don't have to spend that much money in one thing then you will have more to spend in another need for your veggie project so the eight grand investment is about right, which you will spend over the first year, maybe two.

My wife and I save more than $3,000 a year by not having to pay gasoline or diesel prices at a filling station so your investment should amortize in about three years (and this includes the purchase of the car itself). Unless you own a business, how often can you do that when you buy a new or used car?

There is going to be a general meeting of the co-op next month in March but I need to ask permission to invite people.

Eventually, after you have learned all of the basics (which will take a while), the best scenario will be for you to establish a relationship with a restaurant of some kind where you can pick up some of their oil. Chances are, unless it's a small business, that you will not be able to pick up all of their oil so they will probably need to continue paying a renderer to collect the rest for them.

You will need a portable pump that is powered by your car's battery to suck up their oil or simply pick up the restaurant's plastic jugs or buckets. You will need to filter the oil at home so you will also need two large metal, 55 gallon drums; a heating device of some kind (even if you have to make one by splicing wire and buying a barbecue element) to heat up the oil to about 100 degrees so it will filter quickly; you will need a filtering device such as the ones sold by Greasecar or Neoteric (www.greasecar.com (https://www.greasecar.com), www.plantdrive.com (https://www.plantdrive.com)) or you can make your own with jean pant legs and sewing one end and bunching them together in a platform (over the metal drum) like I do; you will need an additional $400 pump at home to pump the filtered oil from your drums to your car.

The conversion that I have (each conversion is different) is composed of a Vormax, a Vegtherm, and a loop return. This is known as a 'single tank' conversion because I don't need an auxiliary tank in the trunk, which are known as 'double tank' conversions. The Vormax, by Racor, is a heavy duty, double chamber filter and heater for large agricultural machinery and costs at least $400. The Vegtherm is an inline fuel heater which costs about $150. The loop return is a system of fuel lines that utilizes the unused fuel, which has already been heated. You can purchase these through:
www.plantdrive.com (https://www.plantdrive.com). You will also need to hire a veggie mechanic and there are few of those and hard to find. Unless you are a mechanic by profession or very talented with auto mechanics, I don't recommend you take this on by yourself. There is a lot to learn. Craig Reece, co-owner of Neoteric, can give you a lot more advice and references than I can. The Biofuels Research Cooperative will also help you.

I very strongly recommend that you subscribe to one of our Yahoogroups and shoot away with your questions. The group there is eager to help you and promote this alternative:
[email protected]

This subscription will get you started; that is the best thing you can do for now (and read the links I gave you) and you will find your way down the rabbit hole.

Edward

Edward,

I am very interested in converting my vehicle to the veggie oil solution. How much did it end up costing you to convert and what is your weekly cost to run your vehicle on the oil? How do I get started? I have very limited time to do the research required, for a good reason that I won't go into right now. But trust me, its not trivial. If you could let me know what the procedure is, or even just point me in the right direction and let me know how much money I should expect to spend, I'd really be happy.

Thanks.

MsTerry

02-18-2008, 09:13 AM

I think there will be some governmental regulation at some point to control access to oil.
the real problem with our lives is that almost everything we touch or use is derived from a petro-chemical source.
the very cars that uses oil also need oil to be manufactured and build, parts made out of plastic and so on.
Can you think of something that doesn't use plastic or oil?
at some point the decision will have to be are we going to use up the available oil to make utilitarian things or burn it up as gasoline?
but it's got to get worse before this mindset will start to kick in.
maybe Zeno can dig up the ratio of use for gasoline and for other use

[quote=Frederick M. Dolan;50191]My question is: don't you think these things will be decided by forces beyond our control? Isn't what matters to be remembered for deeds closer to home? None of us is going to solve "the"problem. If any of us is remembered, it will be for concrete particular acts. Be nice to those around you. Nobody will remember anything more of you.

MsTerry

02-18-2008, 09:21 AM

Mykil, I think you are right.
every year there is a solar car race to see what design can cover the longest distance. Eventually there will be something that is viable coming out of that kind of experimenting.
i just hope that we will be able to witness that day.

In another 100 years??? I think you might have ruffled his feathers their Mizz Terry, In another 100 years the population will be enormous. We won’t be able to plant things for fuel. Food will be number uno! Granted Edward, no one here thinks you are doing the wrong thing in running around town in your cool little veggie powered Mercedes. The fact is we can’t go that way all the way. After there is enough to use up all the restaurants and chip factories in the world, which is close already at this point, growing more for fuel is not a good idea. The source you seek is the solar energy from the sun plain and simple. If we don’t start using the solar trip we will all die!

[quote=Valley Oak;50179]Almost all of the waste vegetable oil is thrown away. Do you know in what other applications the very small amount you are referring to is being used for? A couple of years ago, the California State Attorney General fined a 'renderer' (a company that collects and disposes of restaurant oil) almost one million dollars for dumping WVO into a creek or river. The traditional corporate mentality is not getting it and they had to get hit with a walloping penalty. Renderers don't give a shit about the environment; they are doing this job for the money and nothing more.

Hitler and Bush? No, not by a long shot. Burning veggie is very, very clean and that's a fact. If you put petroleum on a scale where it is 100% pollution, then veggie oil would range somewhere between 1 and 3%. With numbers that good, you are hard pressed to find a viable alternative. Care to try and find one? Rejection alone is not enough. We have to find an alternative. Imagine the world half a century from now; you might still be alive to see it and it won't be a pretty sight. Even if we have enough petroleum to last us another 100 years that is still a big challenge to find some new sources that will be able to adequately substitute the contemporary use of petroleum today.

Where do you get your facts, anyway? Please do your homework:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_vegetable_oil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greasecar

www.joshtickell.com (https://www.joshtickell.com)

I have a question for you: When the world runs out of petroleum in the next 50 years, what realistic alternative for transportation energy will we have? Think about it. A lot folks are doing that right now. So please give it some serious thought. It's not enough to simply reject an idea (a proven one at that); you have to come up with an answer and that's not easy.

Edward

mykil

02-18-2008, 05:06 PM

Hmmm, I was wondering and hoping someone else would jump in and say more about my claims of direct beams of solar rayz via satellites in outer space with purr energy. Has anyone ever heard of such a devise and what kind of impact or damage can such a devise render on our environment? The only impact I might foresee is burning a whole in the ozone. I am not quite sure if this would constitute a reprimand or not? I can see little concerns with such direct power besides the all mighty power Mongols subdued in the corner yelling “please leave US be with our oils”. Has anyone heard besides me of fascinating tales of a more direct connection to our all mighty god in the sky? I mean beaming down direct energy form the sun 24/7 sounds awful good to me…

Zeno Swijtink

02-18-2008, 05:28 PM

I mean beaming down direct energy form the sun 24/7 sounds awful good to me…

Awful indeed. I love the darkness of the night, the starry heavens.

mykil

02-18-2008, 06:36 PM

Ohhh Zeno; I hope you are not implying that when it gets dark there is no sun? I alwayz have thought of you as the brigher of the bunch but...

Awful indeed. I love the darkness of the night, the starry heavens.

Zeno Swijtink

02-18-2008, 07:19 PM

No, that would be the fallacy of the converse, wouldn't it?

Like thinking that the girls are gone when you close your eyes. While actually they are encroaching and fueling up!

Ohhh Zeno; I hope you are not implying that when it gets dark there is no sun? I alwayz have thought of you as the brigher of the bunch but...

Braggi

02-18-2008, 08:52 PM

"In California, the nation's biggest fuel market, drivers have been burning through less gasoline than they had the year before for six straight quarters. ...

Blah blah blah so what? Go back to 1974 and you'll find hundreds of articles like this one. It lasted for a couple of years and then we elected Reagan and it all went to Hel. The oil tycoons tell us what to do and we do it. We're consumerist fools. This article will be meaningless in another year or two unless we start actually employing alternatives now. Edward has the right idea. Take an energy source that is completely wasted, or worse yet, a toxic waste problem, and turn it into a source of energy and a relatively clean one at that. So much better to inhale the exhaust from a veggie or biodiesel car than standard diesel. (I know, better to breathe clean air with no exhaust but that's not the world we live in.)

Mykil also has a good idea: let's employ solar power. We have to technology now. Put solar panels on the roofs of buildings, cover parking lots with them, put them in the centers of divided highways and power plug in electric cars.

But Mykil, as Edward stated, veggie oil is solar power. I agree it's foolish to use food as automobile fuel. But "waste" oil shouldn't be wasted.

-Jeff

Zeno Swijtink

02-18-2008, 09:21 PM

(...) the more prices have gone up the more we use. So price is not the answer unless there are cheaper alternatives. So far not.

-Jeff

"In California, the nation's biggest fuel market, drivers have been burning through less gasoline than they had the year before for six straight quarters. From July through September, the most recent data available, Californians used 46.2 million fewer gallons, or 1.1% less than in the year-earlier period."

Blah blah blah so what? Go back to 1974 and you'll find hundreds of articles like this one. It lasted for a couple of years and then we elected Reagan and it all went to Hell.

Is your polyamory spilling over? That playful state of being in love with more than one line of reasoning at the same time? Where consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds?

MsTerry

02-18-2008, 09:25 PM

[quote=Braggi;
I agree it's foolish to use food as automobile fuel. But "waste" oil shouldn't be wasted.

-Jeff[/quote]

come on now, "waste" oil?
if they can recycle car oil, you think they can't do the same for veggie oil?
my mother used to let the oil sit and all the debris falls to the bottom, and you can reuse it again

Zeno Swijtink

02-18-2008, 09:43 PM

Blah blah blah so what? Go back to 1974 and you'll find hundreds of articles like this one. It lasted for a couple of years and then we elected Reagan and it all went to Hel. The oil tycoons tell us what to do and we do it. We're consumerist fools. This article will be meaningless in another year or two unless we start actually employing alternatives now.
-Jeff

People do respond to price, but they need to be confident that future prices of alternatives will be favorable.

Congress should reauthorize the tax credits that are scheduled to expire at the end of this year for renewable energy technologies, and it should extend this for a much longer period than the customary two years.

mykil

02-18-2008, 11:39 PM

LMAO!!! I think in this day and age if we were to get a price increase of around seven bucks a gallon, we might really see what a resolution is made of. I don’t think it would go over too well to say the least. Hell I am even surprised that as spoiled as US Americans are that if and when we do hit four bucks there is going to be hell to pay! The public demands are what is takes and war versus the price of a gallon of gas is important fro the people in our country. And they will talk about it one hell of allot, as long as the price does not appear to rise to sharply. When this happens I can even see the die hard religious fanatic peace love hippie’s picking up Uzi’s and getting on the bus!!!

People do respond to price, but they need to be confident that future prices of alternatives will be favorable.

Congress should reauthorize the tax credits that are scheduled to expire at the end of this year for renewable energy technologies, and it should extend this for a much longer period than the customary two years.

Braggi

02-19-2008, 11:45 AM

Will you run? I'll vote for you! ...

I would be the only liberal, libertarian, socialist, anti-corporate capitalist, progressive running. I'd probably get assassinated before the primary was over.

I'm forming an exploratory committee though. Not that I want to run for president. I just like to explore in committees.

I would like you to eleborate on the "cultural spiritual weakness that hinders us", before I say that I don't agree

You've stated the reason you're here is to argue so perhaps it doesn't matter what I say, but I'll give you something to not agree with anyway.

The primary spiritual paradigm in this country is Judeo Christian in which a leader (priest or preacher), placed on high by the flock (literally), passes down orders that will be followed. This is the spirituality that fits well with a military organization as well as the top-down organization known as the corporation. It is inherently anti individualist, anti personal responsibility, and anti entrepreneurial. It is a spirituality that has no backbone, because that part of the anatomy is looked for from above. No decisions or value judgements can be easily made by applying inner spiritual strength because spiritual authority comes from outside. The ability of the individual to make decisions is always suspect because looking for inner wisdom courts disaster since that's where demons hold sway.

Free thinking is not exactly encouraged.

Add to that the "absolute Word of God" is unchanging and you have a cultural inertia in which change for the better is pretty hard to achieve despite scientific evidence or personal experiences that are contrary to dogma. Leaders can't depart from the dogma or they can't become leaders. Therefore we are stuck with status quo even when it's leading us to mass suicide.

This opinion is another reason I wouldn't survive long as a presidential candidate.

... NO, we lack the experience of higher prices, ($10 a Gallon), close quarters, cramped cities and narrow streets like they have in Europe for example.
eg. the cars in EU are smaller, use less gas and can make a 180 in one turn in their kind of streets!

And yet there are millions of cars in Europe that run on gasoline and there is no native source of that fuel in Europe except the North Sea. Most of Europe has no oil to speak of.

What I'm saying is even Europe, which has a culture over a thousand years older than our own and one we would hope a lot smarter than our own, is still dependent on gasoline from other countries. Yes, they get better fuel economy than we do, but they haven't solved the problem either.

We need inexpensive electric commuter cars that can be plugged in and charged either free or very inexpensively while they sit parked at work, at shopping centers, or anyplace cars sit unused during the day. We need electric busses and other mass transit, powered by solar, that are really inexpensive and safe and comfortable. It's stupid that we in Sonoma County can't get to a BART station by train. BART should run to Cloverdale and Sonoma and Napa. We should be able to get to the station by solar charged electric car. We have sunny days about 85% of the time I'll guess. If anyone knows better, please let me know. Good solar panels produce some power even in the rain as long as it's daytime. New solar panels that generate electricity from infrared (that's heat) will continue to put out some power on warm nights even after the sun goes down. These are existing technologies that we should be mass producing in the United States, providing jobs and energy security to US residents. Imagine the paradise we could have if 70% of cars ran on nearly free solar energy. Imagine solar powered electrical mass transit all over the state. Imagine how much money you could save for other things if you didn't have to buy imported, expensive, polluting gasoline.

We have a lot of work to do and high gasoline prices aren't pushing us in that direction very quickly. We need a leader with vision.
We need leaders that will challenge the status quo of the military-petroleum-industrial-governmental complex that runs the show in this country and increasingly on the rest of the planet.

The status quo is killing us. We need a change and Obama is only a small step in the right direction. We'll see what he can do if he gets elected. Maybe I'll run against him in 2012. Well, probably not.

-Jeff

Braggi

02-19-2008, 11:53 AM

Is your polyamory spilling over? That playful state of being in love with more than one line of reasoning at the same time? Where consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds?

I was just expressing my frustration because we've gone down this petroleum crisis road before. It's far worse this time but nobody seems very upset about it. There was a lot more press about it last time and Jimmy Carter, bless his shriveled old heart, attempted to make some progress and develop a serious energy policy for this country. We haven't had one since.

-Jeff

Braggi

02-19-2008, 11:58 AM

come on now, "waste" oil?
if they can recycle car oil, you think they can't do the same for veggie oil?
my mother used to let the oil sit and all the debris falls to the bottom, and you can reuse it again

Reuse is even better than recycling. Turning waste oil into fuel is pretty damn cool. I use biodiesel in my truck when I can get it, but Edward's doing it even better. I should really look into it myself.

Restaurants can only use their cooking oil for a certain amount of time.

-Jeff

Braggi

02-19-2008, 12:08 PM

People do respond to price, but they need to be confident that future prices of alternatives will be favorable.

Congress should reauthorize the tax credits that are scheduled to expire at the end of this year for renewable energy technologies, and it should extend this for a much longer period than the customary two years.

But as a nation we haven't responded to price. We use more fuel than we ever have before. Drops in use are blips on the overall graph.

Tax credits for ethanol production should be scrapped immediately. Biodiesel makes more sense, but not at the expense of vast quantities of food crops. Cottonseed and grapeseed are two underutilized sources. I'm sure there are others. What ever happened to jojoba? Hemp seed oil should also be considered. Any oil seed plant that can grow with minimal irrigation and minimal environmental impact should be encouraged.

I think the governments in this country should lead by example and start putting up mini solar plants on the roofs of all their buildings and over all their parking lots. I think these solar power sources should remain government property and not become privatized ever.

Individuals should be paid for power their mini power plants feed into the grid.

-Jeff

Zeno Swijtink

02-19-2008, 01:32 PM

I was just expressing my frustration because we've gone down this petroleum crisis road before. It's far worse this time but nobody seems very upset about it. There was a lot more press about it last time and Jimmy Carter, bless his shriveled old heart, attempted to make some progress and develop a serious energy policy for this country. We haven't had one since.

-Jeff

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/19/business/worldbusiness/19cnd-oil.html

Oil Closes Above $100 for First Time
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS
Published: February 19, 2008

HOUSTON — Crude oil closed above $100 a barrel for the first time on Tuesday afternoon, vaulting through a longstanding psychological barrier amid persistent concern about whether production can keep up with rising global demand.

The day’s price rise of more than 4 percent capped a weeklong run-up that began when President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela threatened to cut off oil exports to the United States over a legal struggle with ExxonMobil.

Just as Mr. Chávez appeared to back off from his threats, an explosion at a Texas refinery on Monday reminded traders and hedge fund managers of the gasoline shortages and price increases that accompanied similar refinery failures last year. Even though the Alon USA refinery at Big Spring, Tex., was relatively small and American inventories are considered adequate, traders and hedge funds took the explosion as a buying signal.

“With this credit crisis going on, everyone is on edge and the slightest disruption in crude oil or its products takes prices right up,” said Michael Rose, director of the energy trading desk at Angus Jackson in Fort Lauderdale, Fla. “Prices are going to go higher before they go lower.”

Energy experts said there were many underlining causes for the rise in energy prices, which have persisted despite a weakening American economy. American demand for gasoline has slipped about 50,000 barrels a day (out of total daily consumption of over 20 million barrels) so far this year because of the slowing economy, but consumption in China, in India and in the oil-producing countries themselves continues to rise. Traders are also concerned about possible production cuts by the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries.

Meanwhile, world supplies have been trimmed by substantial cutbacks in production in Iraq and Nigeria in recent months. Nigeria alone has lost about 10 percent of its daily production since guerrillas stepped up their sabotage and kidnapping of oil workers in the Niger Delta area at the end of last year.

Crude oil prices rose $4.51 to close at $100.01 on the New York Mercantile Exchange. The price went as high as $100.10 in trading during the day, the third time this year that oil prices crossed the $100 barrier during a trading day.

While $100.01 is the first-ever close above $100 a barrel and an all-time record in nominal terms, it is shy of the inflation-adjusted record of $103.35, set in April 1980.

The average national price for unleaded regular gasoline, according to AAA and Oil Price Information Service, is $3.03, compared to $3.02 a month ago and $2.26 a year ago. It usually takes at least a week for increases in oil prices to be reflected in gasoline prices.

“We’re looking at retail prices for regular unleaded of $3.50 to $3.75 in April and May,” said Tom Kloza, an analyst with Oil Price Information Service. “Those will be records.” The all-time record of $3.22 a gallon was set last May.

Analysts say another factor causing the rise in oil prices is the falling value of the dollar. A depreciating dollar depresses investment by oil companies in developing oil fields because their salaries and costs go up in local currencies as their earnings from dollar-denominated oil go down. It also shields foreign buyers from the full effect of price increases, since their currencies buy more oil as they rise against the dollar.

The falling dollar, along with declining credit and stock markets, also encourages traders to seek a safe haven in oil and other commodities.

“The way the markets look right now, with the dollar being weak against all currencies,” said Mr. Rose of Angus Jackson, “it’s prudent for traders and people in other countries to buy dollar-denominated products like grains and energy.”

Braggi

02-19-2008, 02:04 PM

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/19/business/worldbusiness/19cnd-oil.html

Oil Closes Above $100 for First Time
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS
Published: February 19, 2008
...

Zeno, you quoted me and then posted this article without comment.
What are you thinking?

Nobody will read this article and decide to cut their gasoline use.

Adding $100 a barrel import duty might. If a price increase is going to have a substantial impact on a consumer, it's going to have to be an astonishingly huge price increase since we are proving day by day we don't really care how much fuel costs as long as the increases are incremental.

I like the idea of a big import duty. (Another reason I'll never be elected.)

-Jeff

MsTerry

02-19-2008, 03:48 PM

I would be the only liberal, libertarian, socialist, anti-corporate capitalist, progressive running. I'd probably get assassinated before the primary was over.

I'm forming an exploratory committee though. Not that I want to run for president. I just like to explore in committees.

Yes, I agree, someone who stands for something like you, has no business in politics. If you say what you think you can not be elected.
Does that mean we don't have freedom of expression?

You've stated the reason you're here is to argue so perhaps it doesn't matter what I say, but I'll give you something to not agree with anyway.don't flatter me!

The primary spiritual paradigm in this country is Judeo Christian in which a leader (priest or preacher), placed on high by the flock (literally), passes down orders that will be followed. This is the spirituality that fits well with a military organization as well as the top-down organization known as the corporation. It is inherently anti individualist, anti personal responsibility, and anti entrepreneurial. It is a spirituality that has no backbone, because that part of the anatomy is looked for from above. No decisions or value judgements can be easily made by applying inner spiritual strength because spiritual authority comes from outside. The ability of the individual to make decisions is always suspect because looking for inner wisdom courts disaster since that's where demons hold sway.I don't know of any politician or religious leader who practices what he preaches (unless wearing a hogtied rubber suit with a dildo is in the bible).
your point on the surface is valid, but Laura Bush did have an abortion herself.

Free thinking is not exactly encouraged.This is something that happens regardless of any government

Add to that the "absolute Word of God" is unchanging and you have a cultural inertia in which change for the better is pretty hard to achieve despite scientific evidence or personal experiences that are contrary to dogma. Leaders can't depart from the dogma or they can't become leaders. Therefore we are stuck with status quo even when it's leading us to mass suicide.I don't think the inertia is due to religion.
creating slaves to comfort and pleasure will get you there much faster

And yet there are millions of cars in Europe that run on gasoline and there is no native source of that fuel in Europe except the North Sea. Most of Europe has no oil to speak of.

What I'm saying is even Europe, which has a culture over a thousand years older than our own and one we would hope a lot smarter than our own, is still dependent on gasoline from other countries. Yes, they get better fuel economy than we do, but they haven't solved the problem either.
No, they haven't solved it but the government actively encourages alternatives especially in terms of heating and electrical use.

We need inexpensive electric commuter cars that can be plugged in and charged either free or very inexpensively while they sit parked at work, at shopping centers, or anyplace cars sit unused during the day. We need electric busses and other mass transit, powered by solar, that are really inexpensive and safe and comfortable. It's stupid that we in Sonoma County can't get to a BART station by train. BART should run to Cloverdale and Sonoma and Napa. We should be able to get to the station by solar charged electric car. We have sunny days about 85% of the time I'll guess. If anyone knows better, please let me know. Good solar panels produce some power even in the rain as long as it's daytime. New solar panels that generate electricity from infrared (that's heat) will continue to put out some power on warm nights even after the sun goes down. These are existing technologies that we should be mass producing in the United States, providing jobs and energy security to US residents. Imagine the paradise we could have if 70% of cars ran on nearly free solar energy. Imagine solar powered electrical mass transit all over the state. Imagine how much money you could save for other things if you didn't have to buy imported, expensive, polluting gasoline.
Yes, solar is an option but has it's limitations
if you have to amortize your investment over 30 years, at which time it becomes almost absolute, you can just play even with the panels right now.

The status quo is killing us. We need a change and Obama is only a small step in the right direction. We'll see what he can do if he gets elected.He talks good, but the proof is in the pudding.
When somebody says he will pull out of Iraq after being elected, well, that makes me not want to trust him. How is he going to do it? What's the plan?

Maybe I'll run against him in 2012RUN JEFF RUN!.
.

Braggi

02-19-2008, 09:30 PM

Yes, I agree, someone who stands for something like you, has no business in politics. If you say what you think you can not be elected.
Does that mean we don't have freedom of expression?

Well, we don't have freedom of expression without repercussions.

...
don't flatter me!

I don't have any trouble flattering you. I think you serve a purpose.

...
I don't know of any politician or religious leader who practices what he preaches (unless wearing a hogtied rubber suit with a dildo is in the bible).
your point on the surface is valid, but Laura Bush did have an abortion herself.

I'm not talking about individuals but I understand that's where our minds go. I'm talking about a social paradigmn that covers our entire culture. It's created in the image of the Judeo-Christian societal and social model. Individuals within the culture aren't necessarily personally bound by it for individual behaviors, however, we are all surrounded by it and affected by it. Once a person becomes conscious of it and looks for it, that person can free himself from it to some degree. But in the workplace, in a school, in the military, and in the government, we have top down organization. Whether that's a good thing is an individual call. There are certainly good things and bad things about it that I can see.

It's really sad how badly our current misadministration has lied about its adherence to Biblical principals while living without a moral compass of any kind. Even sadder is how many well meaning Christians still think W's work is the Lord's work.

...
I don't think the inertia is due to religion.
creating slaves to comfort and pleasure will get you there much faster

What do you think Christianity is? What do think Nietzsche meant when he said religion is the opiate of the people? Few understand what he really meant. Christianity gives hope and comfort in an instant. Ask a Christian how long it takes for a sinner to be saved. They'll tell you it happens in an instant when you get your mind right. It's a baby religion in that sense. The way to comfort a baby or a baby minded individual is give them security and do it now. No need to wait for it or work for it. It will be handed down from above.

In Nietzsche's day, opium compounds were used for many things. They all had a similar feature: they relieved pain. That's what Nietzsche's comment referred to. Had he said, "Religion relieves the pain of the masses." nobody would remember it or be upset about it. But that's what he meant.

...
Yes, solar is an option but has it's limitations
if you have to amortize your investment over 30 years, at which time it becomes almost absolute, you can just play even with the panels right now.
...

That's the kind of lie that Bill Wattenberg or Rush Limbaugh will tell on the air while nuclear will produce electricity for pennies. What a crock!

Right now, with government perks, you can pay for a solar system in six years, assuming your electrical bill is high enough. Most business and government offices would qualify. Without govt. assistance, it will take ten years. Every year the cost of solar goes down while nuke and fossil fuel prices go up.

Keep that in mind: nuclear prices will only go up and never come down. Solar prices will only go down and never go up.

-Jeff in 2012

Braggi

02-19-2008, 09:43 PM

Keep that in mind: nuclear prices will only go up and never come down. Solar prices will only go down and never go up.

(Sorry, I didn't quite finish the thought before accidentally posting.)

So after ten years or so, solar panels produce FREE electricity. Got that. Over the time you're paying for the installation, many folks can make payments on a system no larger than the monthly payments they made to the power company. That won't work for everyone, but as equipment prices come down it is working for more and more people.

So you finance your system and make payments on your debt instead of to the power company. The payments won't go up like the power company bills do and after a few years, you're done and you don't have to pay anymore.

You will have to hose off the panels once in a while to keep them clean.

-Jeff

This message paid for by: Friends of Jeff and the Committee to Explore with Jeff

Zeno Swijtink

02-19-2008, 10:09 PM

A way to finance solar panels is thru a Green Energy Loan

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?p=50385#post50385

Keep that in mind: nuclear prices will only go up and never come down. Solar prices will only go down and never go up.

(Sorry, I didn't quite finish the thought before accidentally posting.)

So after ten years or so, solar panels produce FREE electricity. Got that. Over the time you're paying for the installation, many folks can make payments on a system no larger than the monthly payments they made to the power company. That won't work for everyone, but as equipment prices come down it is working for more and more people.

So you finance your system and make payments on your debt instead of to the power company. The payments won't go up like the power company bills do and after a few years, you're done and you don't have to pay anymore.

You will have to hose off the panels once in a while to keep them clean.

-Jeff

This message paid for by: Friends of Jeff and the Committee to Explore with Jeff

Zeno Swijtink

03-04-2008, 09:21 PM

https://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=autFGntuNqZY

Crude May Rise to $120 in Six Months, Taqa CEO Says
GLEN CAREY - Bloomberg

Crude oil may rise to $120 a barrel within six months due to the dollar weakness and global political tensions, the chief executive officer of Abu Dhabi National Energy Co. said.

"I think a trading range between $80 and $120 a barrel this year is about right,'' Peter Barker-Homek, the head of the United Arab Emirates state-controlled company, which is also known as Taqa, said in an interview in Dubai today. ``But with the softness of the dollar, and the occasional interruptions that you have because of politics, I think we could see $120 oil.''

In October, Barker-Homek said that crude would rise to $100 from $80 before the end of the first quarter because of unfettered Asian demand growth and possible supply shocks. Oil prices continued to rise today after the Taqa CEO made his latest forecast.

Crude oil for April delivery rose as much as 70 cents in earlier electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange and was up 28 cents at $102.73 a barrel at 2:06 p.m. London time. The Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries will meet tomorrow in Vienna, where members have already ruled out changing output.

The dollar traded near a record low versus the euro as traders increased bets that the Federal Reserve will lower interest rates by 0.75 percentage point this month. The U.S. currency was at $1.5217 per euro.

Sub-Prime Opportunities

The Abu Dhabi-based energy company, with $21 billion in assets, expects to grow its business this year by 25 percent, or $5 billion, and has plans to make acquisitions in Europe and the U.S., Barker-Homek said. ``In order to achieve our goal of being a $60 billion asset company by 2012, we have to grow our asset base by 25 percent year-on-year.''

The U.S. subprime mortgage crisis will provide state- controlled Taqa with investment opportunities over the next two to three years as smaller energy companies in the U.S. and Europe look to expand their energy assets without having to borrow from banks, he said.

Energy companies "have to make some decisions about either sacrificing growth, in which case they will be compromising shareholder value growth, or look for merger of equals or take over candidates,'' Barker-Homek said. "There are ample opportunities to grow the franchise.''

Persian Gulf sovereign wealth funds, whose coffers are swelling from the near-record oil prices, are snapping up stakes in banks battered by U.S. subprime mortgage losses. Citigroup Inc. was propped up in November by a $7.5 billion investment from the Abu Dhabi Investment Authority after losing almost half its market value.

Taqa plans to expand its crude oil production to 200,000 barrels a day of oil equivalent by 2009, up from its production of 160,000 barrels a day now, Barker-Homek said.

MsTerry

03-04-2008, 09:54 PM

[quote=Braggi;50378]Well, we don't have freedom of expression without repercussions.
If this is true, then we don't have anything more than people elsewhere

I don't have any trouble flattering you. I think you serve a purpose.I have noticed how you are starting to use me

I'm not talking about individuals but I understand that's where our minds go. I'm talking about a social paradigmn that covers our entire culture. It's created in the image of the Judeo-Christian societal and social model. Individuals within the culture aren't necessarily personally bound by it for individual behaviors, however, we are all surrounded by it and affected by it. Once a person becomes conscious of it and looks for it, that person can free himself from it to some degree. But in the workplace, in a school, in the military, and in the government, we have top down organization. Whether that's a good thing is an individual call. There are certainly good things and bad things about it that I can see.can't argue with that

[quote]
It's really sad how badly our current misadministration has lied about its adherence to Biblical principals while living without a moral compass of any kind. Even sadder is how many well meaning Christians still think W's work is the Lord's work.[/quote ]It is scary to think that anybody can think they are doing the Lord's work!
All we can do, is our own work, keep our own street clean.

What do you think Christianity is? What do think Nietzsche meant when he said religion is the opiate of the people? Few understand what he really meant. Christianity gives hope and comfort in an instant. Ask a Christian how long it takes for a sinner to be saved. They'll tell you it happens in an instant when you get your mind right. It's a baby religion in that sense. The way to comfort a baby or a baby minded individual is give them security and do it now. No need to wait for it or work for it. It will be handed down from above.Jeff, calm down. ANY form of governing is an opium for the masses. How do you think we got in this mess we are in now.?
It is not religion, but any ideology that will create followers or slaves or addicts, whatever you want to call them

In Nietzsche's day, opium compounds were used for many things. They all had a similar feature: they relieved pain. That's what Nietzsche's comment referred to. Had he said, "Religion relieves the pain of the masses." nobody would remember it or be upset about it. But that's what he meant.Yes, it dulls the brain, but so does self induced marijuana smoking

That's the kind of lie that Bill Wattenberg or Rush Limbaugh will tell on the air while nuclear will produce electricity for pennies. What a crock!

Right now, with government perks, you can pay for a solar system in six years, assuming your electrical bill is high enough. Most business and government offices would qualify. Without govt. assistance, it will take ten years. Every year the cost of solar goes down while nuke and fossil fuel prices go up.
I am not so sure about that, the best way to prevent nuclear power is to reduce your power consumption.
Solar panels don't reduce the amount of energy used, in fact it can drive it up because people feel it is free. Is it really?

Keep that in mind: nuclear prices will only go up and never come down. Solar prices will only go down and never go up.

-Jeff in 2012Can I take that to the bank?

Zeno Swijtink

03-05-2008, 10:23 PM

https://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8V7F6780&show_article=1

Bush: US Must "Get Off Oil"
Mar 5 02:20 PM US/Eastern
By JENNIFER LOVEN

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush said Wednesday that the United States has to "get off oil" to reduce dependence on foreign suppliers and declared "it should be obvious" that high demand is creating painful gasoline prices.

Bush's assessment was at odds with that from the 13-nation Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, which said before he spoke that it would not put more oil on the global market because crude supplies are plentiful.

OPEC President Chakib Khelil told reporters in Vienna, Austria, that the problems in the U.S. economy were a key factor in the cartel's decision to hold off on any action.

"There is sufficient supply. There's plenty of oil there," he said.

In an address to the Washington International Renewable Energy Conference, Bush said, "It should be obvious to you all that the demand is outstripping supply, which causes prices to go up."

During a Middle East trip in January, Bush urged OPEC to increase production and help ease soaring gasoline prices. Bush also said on Tuesday that it's a "mistake to have your biggest customers' economies slowing down as a result of higher energy prices."

The White House said it disagreed with OPEC's decision to rebuff that request, and that the oil-producing nations themselves could be hurt as well.

"OPEC should not be shortsighted about the economic impact of its production decisions," White House deputy press secretary Tony Fratto said.

Oil prices surged past $104 a barrel for the first time after the OPEC announcement. Gas prices are running over $3 a gallon, and some analysts expect prices to rise to near $4 a gallon as summer driving picks up.

Bush's speech was aimed at touting his administration's efforts to increase the use of renewable energy sources.

The president saluted those at the conference for their "commitment to renewable energy," then joked that his travel habits aren't the best contribution. "I probably didn't help today when I rode over in a 20- car motorcade," he said.

Democrats roundly criticized the president's record on energy policy.

"The Bush/Cheney administration has paid lip service to renewable energy and backed it up with inadequate and incremental funding support, favored old dirty and unsafe technologies, threatened vetoes of energy bills because they supported renewable energy incentives and mandates, and undermined the science of and the search for solutions to global warming," said a statement from Senate Democrats.

Bush also addressed the ongoing global talks to find a new agreement to fight climate change.

Many nations want firm—and big—greenhouse gas emission-reduction targets that are mandatory, but Bush has opposed that. He favors voluntary targets set by each country for itself and steep reliance on burgeoning energy efficient technologies to get there. Bush also insists that developing countries like China and India that are growing energy guzzlers be subject to any agreement.

In the face of criticism, Bush repeated those positions but declared: "The United States is serious about confronting climate change."

"America is in the lead when it comes to energy independence; we're in the lead when it comes to new technologies; we're in the lead when it comes to global climate change—and we'll stay that way," he said.

He repeated his calls for a clean technology fund to aid developing nations too poor too afford the kind of new technologies that can help them reduce emissions, and for the elimination of trade barriers on environmental technology.

Bush also defended the meetings the U.S. is hosting on a climate change agreement even as the broader United Nations-sponsored process goes forward.

"This is not in lieu of the U.N. process," he said. "It is to enable the U.N. process to become effective."

The president made clear that he considers his approach key to that.

"Should there be an international agreement? Yes, there should be, and we support it," Bush said. But, he added, "No country should get a free ride."

Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Zeno Swijtink

03-05-2008, 10:28 PM

"[T]he Americo gas station in Gorda, just south of Big Sur is selling premium unleaded gas for $5.39 a gallon. If you can do without premium regular's a relative bargain at $5.19."
https://www.kion46.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=df1239b4-5366-4489-86eb-77e6dc9249bc

Oil prices surged past $104 a barrel for the first time after the OPEC announcement. Gas prices are running over $3 a gallon, and some analysts expect prices to rise to near $4 a gallon as summer driving picks up.

Lorrie

03-06-2008, 10:17 AM

I was talking to my friend in Oklahoma... They are sitting at $2.99 a gallon. As of yesterday. We were talking about gas and the price of it...and she said maybe the most not so funny thing, she said this: "I don't figure miles to the gallon now...I figure it miles to the dollar."
I thought it was an interesting thing to comprehend...
What do you think?:hmmm:

MsTerry

03-06-2008, 08:57 PM

I now roughly calculate how much it cost from A to B and add that to the cost of how much something costs. I used to combine 2 errands to make it worth a trip. Now I feel it needs to be at least 3.

I was talking to my friend in Oklahoma... They are sitting at $2.99 a gallon. As of yesterday. We were talking about gas and the price of it...and she said maybe the most not so funny thing, she said this: "I don't figure miles to the gallon now...I figure it miles to the dollar."
I thought it was an interesting thing to comprehend...
What do you think?:hmmm:

AnnaLisaW

03-07-2008, 08:17 PM

When I ride past the gas stations on my trike or the bus, I feel sorry for those who have to own cars and put their hard earned money into the gas tank. I am so glad I arranged my life so that I can be care free!
-ALW

Valley Oak

03-07-2008, 08:45 PM

That is the exact same feeling I get when I drive by in one of our veggie cars!

Thanks for sharing. I thought I was alone in the experience with the exception of the other co-op members.

Edward

When I ride past the gas stations on my trike or the bus, I feel sorry for those who have to own cars and put their hard earned money into the gas tank. I am so glad I arranged my life so that I can be care free!
-ALW

Zeno Swijtink

03-09-2008, 07:44 PM

https://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/09/BU6QVEVD3.DTL&hw=david+baker&sn=001&sc=1000

Oil demand is drying up - slightly
David R. Baker, Chronicle Staff Writer
Sunday, March 9, 2008

Oil costs more than at any time in history, gasoline prices are shattering records in California again and our president says we're addicted to petroleum.

So are we any closer to kicking the habit?

The answer appears to be yes.

It took soaring prices and the fear of global warming to accomplish, but society may finally have started the long process of weaning itself off of oil. Whether we stay on that path remains to be seen.

California is pushing hard to increase the use of alternative fuels. Within three years, the amount of ethanol blended into the gas Californians buy will rise by 66 percent, and the state is contemplating bigger increases. Last year's federal energy law mandated that production of renewable fuels must jump more than 500 percent by 2022. All three leading presidential candidates, Republican and Democrat, have called for capping the carbon dioxide emissions that come from burning fossil fuels such as oil.

Meanwhile, Silicon Valley entrepreneurs are racing to develop fuels and electric cars that consumers will want to buy, hoping to harness the power of the marketplace to effect change.

And believe it or not, Americans are buying less gasoline.

The drop is small at the national level - just 0.9 percent in the past month - but any decline is considered rare. Although the decrease just started elsewhere in the county, California's gasoline sales have been falling for about two years.

Whether the decline represents the temporary thrift of price-shocked drivers or the start of something larger won't be known for months or years. But taken together, these developments within the government, the business world and the public at large suggest a new determination to cut back on oil, if not replace it altogether.

"I have no question that we can - sustainably, without significant new land use - replace all our petroleum," said Silicon Valley investor Vinod Khosla. He has pumped money into developing cellulosic ethanol, which can be made from crop waste and wood chips rather than corn.

"It will be four years before the world believes we have a solution," he said. "Once the world believes it, then it will scale."

It may take decades

Many people in the energy world don't share his optimism. Some say oil can be replaced, but only after decades of effort. Others insist that alternative fuels will supplement oil but never replace it, at least not in our lifetimes.

"Actually replacing oil? I don't even know if that's even feasible," said Gordon Schremp, fuels specialist for the California Energy Commission.

On the corporate side of the ledger, the oil industry doesn't plan on disappearing.

Several oil companies, such as BP and Chevron, are exploring biofuels. But the industry insists that petroleum will remain vital to the economy for the foreseeable future.

"I think we're on a path to a more diverse fuel future," said Joe Sparano, president of the Western States Petroleum Association, an oil industry trade group. "And I think it's a good thing. And petroleum will for many, many decades be a cornerstone of that future."

America has started down this road before, only to lose interest when oil prices dropped. California, for example, tested the use of methanol as an alternative fuel in the 1980s and 1990s before finally folding the project.

"When we did that, we walked away from the oil-displacement opportunity that (methanol) could provide," said Peter Ward, a California Energy Commission policy adviser who worked on the program. "It was a step back, in that regard."

Make no mistake: The world's demand for oil remains enormous - about 85 million barrels per day. And it's growing, with China, India and the rest of the developing world consuming more each year.

The United States devours more than 20 million barrels per day, with almost half of that made into gasoline. American drivers burn about 141 billion gallons of gas every year. In California, it's close to 16 billion gallons per year.

But starting in March 2006, California gasoline sales began to slip.

The percentages were small - 1.2 percent in March, compared with the same month of 2005, and 1.6 percent in April - but they caught the attention of energy analysts. Gasoline sales usually rise about 2 percent every year, if for no other reason than population growth. Sales sometimes flat-line or dip during recessions, but California's economy in 2006 seemed strong.

Gas prices, however, were soaring. They reached $3.38 for a gallon of regular in mid-May of 2006, a record at the time.

How people cut back

Most people can't stop driving altogether. While the Bay Area has an extensive network of buses, ferries and trains, most Californians can't rely on mass transit. So how were they able to cut back?

Some found ways to combine errands and reduce the number of car trips they took each week. Those who could tried mass transit, with BART ridership growing 5.1 percent in 2006 and 4.8 percent in 2007.

Many people bought gas-sipping cars, including hybrids. Connie Berto and her husband, Frank, bought a Prius three years ago and now see so many near their San Anselmo home that she refers to them as "a pluribus of Pri-i." The Bertos get about 50 to 52 miles per gallon.

"I am an oil brat," she explained. "My father was with Standard Oil, my husband was with Chevron. We are committed to conserving our resources."

Hybrid car sales grew an average of 89 percent per year from 2001 through 2006, the last year for which the energy commission has complete data. But for all their popularity, hybrids still represented 0.6 percent of all the vehicles registered in California in 2006 - nowhere near enough to dent gasoline use.

A more likely explanation for the drop in gas sales may be that, rather than buying a new car, many Californians simply used the most efficient cars they already had. Most families own more than one vehicle, and when the price of gas rises, many leave the Yukon at home and drive the Civic.

Chris Murphy used to take his Land Rover to work at his warehousing and logistics business in Modesto. But as pump prices climbed, he shifted to driving his wife's Volkswagen Beetle. "When I picked up my clients, they'd say, 'Ooh, cool Beetle,' " Murphy said. "It never turned out to be a business problem."

Murphy has no intention of driving the SUV again for his commute or for errands around town, and it's easy to see why. The Land Rover costs $75 to fill up, the Beetle $42.

"I wouldn't go back," he said. "I'm not put out at all. The worst thing that could happen is for the fuel price to go down and everyone would want their GTO again."

Telecommuting helps

In addition, many Californians are working from home at least part of the time. This trend has been developing for years and can't explain a sudden drop in gasoline sales, but it may be reducing demand in the long term.

Lisa Fulker works from her Palo Alto home three or four days a week as a senior brand programs manager for Sun Microsystems. She first tried it in 1998, when she had two small children to care for, and says working from home saves her time that would have been spent getting dressed and commuting. Sun encourages telecommuting, with 55 percent of its 35,000 employees working outside the office on a regular basis.

"I pretty much don't go into the office unless I have a meeting where I want to be face-to-face with people," Fulker said. "It just doesn't make sense for me to drive 10 minutes to sit in an office by myself."

As unusual as the drop in California's gasoline sales may be, the overall amounts remain small.

According to the California Board of Equalization, the amount of gas sold in the state fell by 112.5 million gallons from 2005 to 2006. That sounds like a lot, but it's a decrease of just 0.7 percent. The board does not have complete data for 2007, but in the year's first 11 months, sales dropped 1.2 percent.

The sheer size of the gasoline market drives skepticism that oil can quickly be replaced, or even be replaced at all.

Ethanol and biodiesel are the only nonpetroleum fuels made in quantity in the United States. And while production of each has swelled in recent years, both remain tiny compared with America's demand for fuel. Biorefineries last year churned out 6.5 billion gallons of ethanol and 450 million gallons of biodiesel, according to the federal government. Lump those two together and they're still just 5 percent as large as America's annual gasoline consumption.

Biofuel advocates, however, aren't scared by the numbers. Instead, they see America's thirst for fuel as an immense business opportunity that will make some people very rich.

Khosla's finance company, Khosla Ventures, estimates that America could produce 5 billion gallons of cellulosic ethanol per year by 2015, 30 billion gallons by 2020 and 150 billion gallons by 2030. It could be done using forest waste and winter cover crops on active farmland, as well as rotating energy-producing crops with those used for food.

Ethanol quandary

Most ethanol in the Unites States comes from corn, and critics fear that increasing production will push food prices higher.

If Khosla is right, however, that stark choice between growing crops for food or fuel can be avoided. A cellulosic ethanol plant funded by his firm is under construction in Georgia and should begin production in 2009, making ethanol from wood scraps. "My bet is in the four- or five-year timeframe, you'll hear experts say oil would have to drop to $50 a barrel to compete with these nonfood crops," Khosla said.

Other entrepreneurs are designing a new generation of electric cars, or perfecting plug-in hybrids that run mostly on electricity. Although it takes years for a new type of engine to come into widespread use - witness the Prius - these people foresee a future in which American drivers rely mostly on the electric grid, not the gas or ethanol pump.

At the same time, they hope to increase the use of renewable sources of electricity, such as wind farms and large-scale solar plants, so the grid isn't powered entirely by natural gas or coal.

Whether any of these grand ideas pans out remains a huge question. Even if one or more succeeds, America will still be using oil for years to come, to make gasoline as well as countless industrial chemicals. But it is possible that the transition away from oil has begun.

"Short term, we're stuck with it because it's incredibly convenient and we've built a whole economic system to take advantage of that," said Daniel Kammen, a professor in the Energy and Resources Group at UC Berkeley. "I'm short-term pessimistic and long-term optimistic."

E-mail David R. Baker at [email protected].

This article appeared on page F - 1 of the San Francisco Chronicle

MsTerry

03-09-2008, 09:18 PM

Riding the bus might seem like a green solution, but once you start counting the passengers in the bus (very few), divide the cost of diesel pollution(high) and low mpg for such a big bus, you might end up being better of in a small honda or toyota.

When I ride past the gas stations on my trike or the bus, I feel sorry for those who have to own cars and put their hard earned money into the gas tank. I am so glad I arranged my life so that I can be care free!
-ALW

Zeno Swijtink

03-09-2008, 09:29 PM

Riding the bus might seem like a green solution, but once you start counting the passengers in the bus (very few), divide the cost of diesel pollution (high) and low mpg for such a big bus, you might end up being better of in a small honda or toyota.

Except that the bus is riding anyhow: always better to jump on. It's the marginal GHG emissions that counts.

MsTerry

03-10-2008, 09:13 AM

Actually the whole bus system needs a reform. I believe in Marin they are now experimenting with a zero emission bus.
We need smaller buses (including schoolbuses) and more flexibleschedules.

Except that the bus is riding anyhow: always better to jump on. It's the marginal GHG emissions that counts.

AnnaLisaW

03-10-2008, 09:26 AM

Riding the bus might seem like a green solution, but once you start counting the passengers in the bus (very few), divide the cost of diesel pollution(high) and low mpg for such a big bus, you might end up being better of in a small honda or toyota.

I have heard this bullshit excuse so often I am sick of it! (I wonder what busses Ms Terry rides.) I have been a regular rider of both city and county busses for years and while I have seen one or two like she described before sunrise or late at night, they are extremely rare. More often these busses are full, often with standing room only. Furthermore, the county busses and the newer city busses do not burn diesel, they use the cleaner burning natural gas.
It is bad enough that many who could be riding public transportation don't, but propogating false rumours only makes a bad situation worse.
-AnnaLisa

handy

03-10-2008, 12:45 PM

I think you are all missing a very important point.

When money is stable, price is determined by supply and demand. When supply is short, and demand is high, the price goes up.

We are not experiencing a shortage of supply. If that was the case, we would see lines, rationing, odd/even days based on license plate numbers a la '70's.

That ain't happening.

What IS happening is a rapid devaluation of the dollar. It takes more dollars to buy (almost any) product because every dollar in your pocket is worth LESS. Every time the Fed prints more dollars, the value of what is already in circulation decreases. You will, therefore, need more of them to purchase the same value.

Another point being missed is the energy density of the various fuels.

The energy available in any fuel is based on the number of Carbon atoms in the molecule. Breaking the Carbon bond releases energy for our use. Fewer Carbon atoms per molecule means less available energy.

As I said in an earlier post:
-----------------------------------------------------------
Diesel is hard to beat. In terms of grade school physics, it has the highest energy density at around 130,500 Btu/gallon. Gasoline is (I think) around 115-119,000 Btu/gallon, ethanol's around 84,000 Btu/gallon. Propane is a little below that (around 79,000), and natural gas, get that ""natural"" gas, methane, CH4, ...is down right sad at about 7,000 btu/gallon, and that's when it seriously compressed (2800 psi).

No matter what you drive, or how you power it, it all comes down to this:

1 hp = 550 foot-pounds/second = 2545 Btu / hour = 745.7 watts = 0.746 kW
---------------------------------------------------------
People like Edward do a worthwhile service by scavenging oil that is no longer useful for cooking, and recycling it is much better than discarding it as "waste". But it only has a good effect when kept at the scavenger level.

As soon as we attempt to use food oils for fuel on a grand scale, we will cause unintended disruptions in the food supply chain, as we are now seeing in the subsidization of ethanol production.

If it takes a gallon of diesel to make a gallon of ethanol, you've lost a third of the energy before it even gets to your tank. If you pay as much per gallon for the ethanol as you would have for the diesel, you are being doubly ripped off.

MsTerry

03-10-2008, 01:07 PM

!!!

People like Edward do a worthwhile service by scavenging oil that is no longer useful for cooking, and recycling it is much better than discarding it as "waste". But it only has a good effect when kept at the scavenger level.Well said, Except it is not recycling but reusing it!

As soon as we attempt to use food oils for fuel on a grand scale, we will cause unintended disruptions in the food supply chain, as we are now seeing in the subsidization of ethanol production.Yip

If it takes a gallon of diesel to make a gallon of ethanol, you've lost a third of the energy before it even gets to your tank. If you pay as much per gallon for the ethanol as you would have for the diesel, you are being doubly ripped offAstute .[/quote]

Zeno Swijtink

03-10-2008, 01:12 PM

Scientists Determine Farm Costs of Producing Switchgrass for Ethanol
___________________________________________

ARS News Service
Agricultural Research Service, USDA
Jan Suszkiw, (301) 504-1630, [email protected]
March 6, 2008
--View this report online, plus photos and related stories, at www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr
___________________________________________

Following up on a net-energy study published in the January Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS), a team of Agricultural Research Service (ARS) and University of Nebraska-Lincoln (UNL) scientists today reports the on-farm economic costs of producing switchgrass for cellulosic ethanol.

In their PNAS energy-analysis paper, the team reported that switchgrass, when used for cellulosic ethanol, yielded over five times more energy than required to produce the fuel. In this month's edition of the journal BioEnergy Research, the team describes their study's second part, which examined the farm-scale production costs of switchgrass. Richard Perrin of UNL and Ken Vogel, Marty Schmer and Rob Mitchell--all in the ARS Grain, Forage and Bioenergy Research Unit at Lincoln--conducted the studies.

According to Perrin and Vogel, this study is the most comprehensive one completed to date assessing the economic costs of producing switchgrass biomass on commercial fields. The team contracted with 10 farmers in Nebraska, North Dakota and South Dakota to commercially grow switchgrass for five years, starting in 2000 and 2001. Throughout the study, the farmers recorded all costs for producing switchgrass biomass, from seed and fertilizer expenses to equipment and labor costs. Total baled biomass yields were recorded for each farm.

On average, switchgrass production costs were $60 per ton. Two farmers with previous experience growing switchgrass were able to limit production costs to $39 a ton. They were among a group of five farmers whose production costs were $50 or less per ton. That's something farmers elsewhere could probably achieve as they, too, gain production experience with switchgrass, the researchers suggest. Based on the $50-per-ton figure, and assuming a conversion efficiency of 80 to 90 gallons per ton, the farmgate production cost of cellulosic ethanol from switchgrass would be about $0.55 to $0.62 per gallon.

Perrin and the ARS agronomists expect production costs will also decline as new, "ethanol-friendly" cultivars are developed.

ARS is the U.S. Department of Agriculture's chief scientific research agency.

MsTerry

03-10-2008, 01:13 PM

Busses are full at peak hours. Is that when you ride the bus?
While riding my bike, I have been plume-eted by black clouds coming from a big bus, I assumed it was diesel. I have to walk 10 minutes to catch a bus that comes by every 2 hrs or so.

I have heard this bullshit excuse so often I am sick of it! (I wonder what busses Ms Terry rides.) I have been a regular rider of both city and county busses for years and while I have seen one or two like she described before sunrise or late at night, they are extremely rare. More often these busses are full, often with standing room only. Furthermore, the county busses and the newer city busses do not burn diesel, they use the cleaner burning natural gas.
It is bad enough that many who could be riding public transportation don't, but propogating false rumours only makes a bad situation worse.
-AnnaLisa

Valley Oak

03-10-2008, 01:13 PM

All quite true!

And yes, although I talk a lot about using waste vegetable oil here on this list, it is also quite true that if everyone started doing what I am then the restaurants might start charging people money to pick up their oil instead of the other way around.

What has happened is that rendering companies (waste disposal companies that pick up used restaurant oil) have already successfully lobbied legislators in Sacramento to protect their business interests from 'veg heads,' scavengers, and biodieselers. It is now legally required that anyone who picks up waste oil from restaurants must have a rendering license. This effectively screws everyone except these companies who continue to throw away, as garbage, a valuable resource while fuel at the pump is $4 a gallon. What kind of a society do we live in anyway?

Yokayo Biofuels, based in Mendocino County, well after it had successfully set up its operation of producing biodiesel on a mass scale, eventually had to get such a license, and then eventually invested in the expensive infrastructure to also function as a legal renderer as well. You can see Yokayo's trucks, from time to time, cruising the City of Santa Rosa, picking up restaurant oil. They have managed to get the contracts of many restaurants in this city, and Sebastopol, and also throughout Sonoma County.

I have thought about getting a renderer's license myself but that is a large project that would be more expensive than what I save each year in fuel, which is roughly $4,000 now. If I could see a benefit in doing this without it being purely a business (that is, my simply becoming another renderer) then I would jump into it with both feet.

Edward

I think you are all missing a very important point.

When money is stable, price is determined by supply and demand. When supply is short, and demand is high, the price goes up.

We are not experiencing a shortage of supply. If that was the case, we would see lines, rationing, odd/even days based on license plate numbers a la '70's.

That ain't happening.

What IS happening is a rapid devaluation of the dollar. It takes more dollars to buy (almost any) product because every dollar in your pocket is worth LESS. Every time the Fed prints more dollars, the value of what is already in circulation decreases. You will, therefore, need more of them to purchase the same value.

Another point being missed is the energy density of the various fuels.

The energy available in any fuel is based on the number of Carbon atoms in the molecule. Breaking the Carbon bond releases energy for our use. Fewer Carbon atoms per molecule means less available energy.

As I said in an earlier post:
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Diesel is hard to beat. In terms of grade school physics, it has the highest energy density at around 130,500 Btu/gallon. Gasoline is (I think) around 115-119,000 Btu/gallon, ethanol's around 84,000 Btu/gallon. Propane is a little below that (around 79,000), and natural gas, get that ""natural"" gas, methane, CH4, ...is down right sad at about 7,000 btu/gallon, and that's when it seriously compressed (2800 psi).

No matter what you drive, or how you power it, it all comes down to this:

1 hp = 550 foot-pounds/second = 2545 Btu / hour = 745.7 watts = 0.746 kW
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People like Edward do a worthwhile service by scavenging oil that is no longer useful for cooking, and recycling it is much better than discarding it as "waste". But it only has a good effect when kept at the scavenger level.

As soon as we attempt to use food oils for fuel on a grand scale, we will cause unintended disruptions in the food supply chain, as we are now seeing in the subsidization of ethanol production.

If it takes a gallon of diesel to make a gallon of ethanol, you've lost a third of the energy before it even gets to your tank. If you pay as much per gallon for the ethanol as you would have for the diesel, you are being doubly ripped off.